Latest / UK Column Radio / To win, Focus on the Micro Before the Macro | Jerm Warfare Weekly Banter

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To win, Focus on the Micro Before the Macro | Jerm Warfare Weekly Banter · UK Column Radio

0:00
Speaker 1: M m.
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Speaker 2: M m.
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Speaker 3: M m.
0:30
Speaker 4: My name is Jim.
0:31
Speaker 1: This is Jim Wolfe, The Battle of Ideas.
0:34
Speaker 4: You're done playing with your microphone, Charles, all it comes
0:37
Speaker 4: through my my in my headphones.
0:38
Speaker 5: Yes, okay, sorry, all right.
0:42
Speaker 4: I I'm in a good mood. And Mike, you arrived early,
0:47
Speaker 4: so you're in a good mood too.
0:48
Speaker 2: Clearly, Well, look at we don't need to go there, Jeram,
0:53
Speaker 2: we don't need to go there. You're letting, you're letting,
0:55
Speaker 2: you're letting internal secrets out that that you know, perhaps
0:58
Speaker 2: once or twice, I might have just come. You've forgotten
1:00
Speaker 2: about this program and arrived half in hour lead.
1:03
Speaker 4: But I want to focus today just on solutions. So
1:08
Speaker 4: something that comes up often in conversation around me because
1:12
Speaker 4: people often ask me what I do, and I've never
1:14
Speaker 4: been able to accurately answer that question. And one of
1:19
Speaker 4: the things that I do end up talking about is
1:23
Speaker 4: solving problems around us, because that's a counter response to,
1:28
Speaker 4: you know, a lot of the sort of negative nature of.
1:31
Speaker 1: The work that we do.
1:32
Speaker 4: And just this week, in fact, my wife was at
1:36
Speaker 4: our neighbors again in our in our little estate. I'm
1:38
Speaker 4: giving them vegetables that she had grown in our God
1:41
Speaker 4: and complete the organic, no chemicals, and we don't have
1:45
Speaker 4: a very big god. And I want to point out
1:48
Speaker 4: that Jim Gale said a few weeks ago because people
1:50
Speaker 4: often criticize him for talking on a mega scale because
1:54
Speaker 4: that's the kind of work that he does. But you
1:57
Speaker 4: can actually apply that principle even in a very small environment.
2:02
Speaker 4: We don't have much in the way of garden space,
2:05
Speaker 4: but we certainly have enough to grow vegetables and share
2:07
Speaker 4: them with our community.
2:08
Speaker 1: And I think that.
2:09
Speaker 4: Is a really great start to actually living by the
2:13
Speaker 4: words that we speak, you know, on this program.
2:17
Speaker 2: I think you know a point that I would make
2:20
Speaker 2: is that when we're looking at solutions, lots of people
2:23
Speaker 2: are looking for one single answer or one single person
2:26
Speaker 2: who's going to solve the issues that we of the
2:28
Speaker 2: day that we face, and we're forgetting that actually there
2:31
Speaker 2: are lots and lots and lots of people on this
2:33
Speaker 2: planet and everybody is going to have a different approach.
2:36
Speaker 2: And I am absolutely enthusiastic about anybody that's doing stuff
2:41
Speaker 2: on a local basis, but also doing stuff on an
2:44
Speaker 2: international basis if it's the right things. So, but I mean,
2:47
Speaker 2: obviously for the majority of us the simplest thing to
2:51
Speaker 2: do is to look at the world around us and
2:54
Speaker 2: look at at the stuff that we don't like and
2:57
Speaker 2: the behaviors of people that we don't like, and do
2:59
Speaker 2: something different. That you know, that is, you know, if
3:02
Speaker 2: we if we are looking at how our children are
3:05
Speaker 2: being educated, and we take the time and make the
3:08
Speaker 2: effort to provide some context for our children, or even
3:12
Speaker 2: take them out of mainstream education altogether and educate them
3:15
Speaker 2: at home, that is that and of itself as an
3:19
Speaker 2: active resistance. Growing vegetables is an active resistance because we're
3:22
Speaker 2: discouraged from doing that as long as it's done in
3:25
Speaker 2: the right way. Obviously, if we use the same chemicals
3:27
Speaker 2: that that are done in an industrial skill, then.
3:33
Speaker 1: What's the point.
3:34
Speaker 2: So, you know, it's it's there's there's a million things
3:37
Speaker 2: that we can all do to resist what we don't
3:39
Speaker 2: like in the world, and starting locally is the best
3:43
Speaker 2: place to start, because that's the thing that you can
3:45
Speaker 2: do the easiest.
3:47
Speaker 4: A guy that I know had lunch with a few
3:50
Speaker 4: days ago, and he said to me, when he goes
3:52
Speaker 4: to our local farms, to my wine and whatever else,
3:56
Speaker 4: the first thing he asks them is if they accept
3:59
Speaker 4: cash if they say no, he says, well, that's unfortunate.
4:03
Speaker 4: I like your products, but I'm going to go somewhere else.
4:07
Speaker 4: That's also an act of resistance, and it's and it
4:09
Speaker 4: is a good thing that he's doing because he's he's
4:11
Speaker 4: making them feel like they might need to question their
4:16
Speaker 4: business activities.
4:20
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, I don't think that well, let's put
4:24
Speaker 2: it this way. Of course, it's for people that are
4:27
Speaker 2: actually treating in some way. It's becoming increasingly difficult to
4:33
Speaker 2: deal with cash because banks and governments are increasingly putting
4:39
Speaker 2: roade blocks in the way to you know, in terms
4:41
Speaker 2: of accounting and in terms of just processing the cost
4:44
Speaker 2: of processing cash. So you know that that might be
4:48
Speaker 2: that's one way to approach the problem is to say, well,
4:51
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I can't buy from you. I would say
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Speaker 2: that on top of that, we need to actually be
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Speaker 2: starting a conversation with anybody that's you know, not accepting cash,
5:00
Speaker 2: try to understand things from their point of view, and
5:03
Speaker 2: you know, perhaps helping and encouraging them to take that
5:06
Speaker 2: extra step, because it is increasingly difficult to deal with
5:11
Speaker 2: that as someone who is receiving cash for some goods
5:15
Speaker 2: or services.
5:17
Speaker 4: I mean I'm not completely opposed to using your card,
5:22
Speaker 4: but there are a lot of reasons why I would
5:24
Speaker 4: do that. Living in South Africa, for example, you get
5:27
Speaker 4: mugged and hijacked very very quickly and very easily. There's
5:30
Speaker 4: obviously a component of safety involved with that. But you
5:34
Speaker 4: can also barter with people. You can create arrangements where
5:38
Speaker 4: you don't actually have to physically move money around.
5:44
Speaker 3: Yes, I think there's a source of arrangements which can
5:46
Speaker 3: be very good. I think, actually, I don't know if
5:48
Speaker 3: it's happened in Africa, it probably has. One of the
5:52
Speaker 3: ways in which cash has been switched off by businesses.
5:57
Speaker 3: And if we think of all the various things that
5:59
Speaker 3: get so much of it is concerned suggestion. So you know,
6:07
Speaker 3: with climate, let's say you float the idea of this,
6:09
Speaker 3: that and the other, and before you know it, a
6:11
Speaker 3: load of businesses, schools, whatever have all taken up the
6:14
Speaker 3: mantle and they've decided what they're going to do as
6:16
Speaker 3: a result of it. Cash What one sees here an
6:19
Speaker 3: awful lot is businesses that will tell you that they
6:23
Speaker 3: don't accept cash. And when you say, oh, well that's
6:26
Speaker 3: that seems that seems odd, Well, that seems a shame,
6:28
Speaker 3: you know, why not, and that the answer they will
6:32
Speaker 3: parrot concerns eliminating pessy theft basically, so they say it's
6:40
Speaker 3: not the way they frame it is not to say
6:43
Speaker 3: the boss doesn't trust me. It's I can't remember what
6:47
Speaker 3: the line is, but there is basically a line that
6:49
Speaker 3: they say, which is, well, in not using cash, we
6:53
Speaker 3: can eliminate this, that and the other. And so there's
6:57
Speaker 3: always there's always a sort of a counter argument for
7:02
Speaker 3: whatever it is that we might be suggesting or putting forward,
7:05
Speaker 3: which I think one always has to be wearing of.
7:07
Speaker 3: And also that cash is such a good example because
7:10
Speaker 3: I always feel it's a great talking point actually, and
7:13
Speaker 3: it's just regrettable, as with so many things, that invariably,
7:16
Speaker 3: when you're talking to somebody about whether or not they
7:19
Speaker 3: take cash, very seldom that they the decision maker. They
7:23
Speaker 3: will just have it told said to them that, well,
7:25
Speaker 3: they're not taking cash anymore. I took this up. I'm
7:28
Speaker 3: a member of a cricket club which has a bar
7:32
Speaker 3: and all the rest of it, and this was something
7:35
Speaker 3: that changed, like so many other things in twenty twenty.
7:38
Speaker 3: But the thing is, it's a member. It's a member organization.
7:41
Speaker 3: So in effect we are as members, we're supposed to
7:44
Speaker 3: take the decisions. And that was my point to make
7:48
Speaker 3: on that was well, I don't remember being consulted about cash,
7:51
Speaker 3: but of course that was the that was the hand
7:54
Speaker 3: in cash where I could kill you. Let's you know,
7:57
Speaker 3: safety first and all that. Anyway, sorry sidetracked, going back
8:00
Speaker 3: to the solutions thing. This is something that we I
8:06
Speaker 3: think we have perennially said that one can get into
8:11
Speaker 3: hot water over it. And the way you get into
8:13
Speaker 3: hot water is by people being shackled to a particular idea,
8:17
Speaker 3: a fixed idea, rather than a principle. And therefore I
8:22
Speaker 3: think one has to be mindful of saying something like,
8:26
Speaker 3: oh yeah, growing vegetables is absolutely the way you will
8:29
Speaker 3: sort your life out of you just grow vegetables, but
8:32
Speaker 3: in actual fact you might not live somewhere that vegetables
8:35
Speaker 3: are particularly as grown. And in fact, even from my
8:37
Speaker 3: own experience, I live on a plot of land that
8:39
Speaker 3: is very phosphate rich soil. We have an absolutely phenomenal
8:43
Speaker 3: slug population and they are much better at eating vegetables
8:47
Speaker 3: than we are at growing them. And so that's a
8:50
Speaker 3: battle that at the moment, you know, we're not winning,
8:52
Speaker 3: So therefore we think around it and make a different plan.
8:58
Speaker 3: And I think really the way in which I would
9:00
Speaker 3: look at this is you have to you just have
9:03
Speaker 3: to concentrate on what is it that you want to achieve,
9:07
Speaker 3: and I think there can be quite a degree of
9:11
Speaker 3: agreement on that. So let's say, what we don't want
9:15
Speaker 3: to do is to perpetuate the rain of control and
9:20
Speaker 3: destruction that industrialized farming and the corporate manifestation of such.
9:28
Speaker 3: What that results in, which is a very poor trading
9:33
Speaker 3: environment for both the producer and the purchaser, it's a
9:37
Speaker 3: very bad outcome for the land, there's a high waste percentage,
9:44
Speaker 3: all those negatives. So we want to avoid that, and
9:49
Speaker 3: then you start to think about how you can avoid that. Now,
9:54
Speaker 3: the most simple answer could be, right, well, I will
9:57
Speaker 3: grow my own food. But is that necessarily the the
10:00
Speaker 3: most sensible or the easiest thing to do, or indeed
10:03
Speaker 3: the immediate first step. So that's why when you've just
10:06
Speaker 3: said barter or whatever, Yes, I think there are absolutely
10:10
Speaker 3: loads of different ways to skin that particular cat. And
10:13
Speaker 3: I think that's where people need to start is with
10:16
Speaker 3: the principles. And this is what I always find a
10:19
Speaker 3: terrific irony is that there are, I would say, or
10:24
Speaker 3: rather sorry, there is, I think, and I don't mean
10:27
Speaker 3: this in a damning sense, and I'm sorry if anybody
10:30
Speaker 3: thinks I'm in effect sort of pointing the finger at them,
10:33
Speaker 3: But I think I am just pointing out what I
10:36
Speaker 3: think is an inconsistency. I think that within the United
10:39
Speaker 3: Kingdom there are a lot of people who consider themselves
10:42
Speaker 3: to be part of a resistance to a system or
10:46
Speaker 3: the system, who still procure a lot of what they
10:52
Speaker 3: consume from all the sorts of entities that are pursuing
10:59
Speaker 3: the outcomes that they say they are opposed to. And
11:02
Speaker 3: I would put supermarkets in industrialized farming absolutely at the
11:07
Speaker 3: top of that, because they are related to so many
11:12
Speaker 3: of the other things that we do talk about. They
11:15
Speaker 3: are corruption personified in effect, insofar as state control and
11:20
Speaker 3: policy and outcomes are really only exclusively negative. And yet
11:25
Speaker 3: people will turn away from tuning into this, that and
11:28
Speaker 3: the other, or even going on a demonstration and then
11:30
Speaker 3: just go straight around the corner into Tesco, you know,
11:33
Speaker 3: the leading supermarket, which is basically destroying the environment and
11:37
Speaker 3: destroying their life, and that's where the money goes. So
11:40
Speaker 3: I think that is an absolutely grand own goal and
11:44
Speaker 3: people really should apply a huge amount more thought to it.
11:47
Speaker 3: And again I know there will be lots of people
11:48
Speaker 3: listening to them. Well, I just I can't. I live
11:50
Speaker 3: in an urban environment. This and the other I'm very
11:53
Speaker 3: confidently can and that there are other people who would
11:57
Speaker 3: feel like you, and therefore that is where you start.
11:59
Speaker 3: And there is a solution, it's just you haven't quite
12:02
Speaker 3: his upon it yet. And by way of inspiration, I
12:05
Speaker 3: would reference an interview that went out this week because delightfully,
12:09
Speaker 3: when we last spoke about this in sort of terms
12:11
Speaker 3: of glowing positivity, there was a great response and one
12:15
Speaker 3: of the UK column members, Susan Humphrey, got in touch
12:19
Speaker 3: and said, well, actually back in twenty twenty, we were
12:22
Speaker 3: having a group of people that she knows, we're having
12:24
Speaker 3: ideas along these lines and they took on a plot
12:28
Speaker 3: of land up in Derbyshire and they are now doing
12:32
Speaker 3: exactly this. So that's been the solution for them. I'm
12:35
Speaker 3: not trying to say right, everyone needs to do that.
12:37
Speaker 3: That is definitely not the answer. But to listen to
12:40
Speaker 3: her interview, which as I say, went out on Tuesday
12:42
Speaker 3: this week, is that's really inspiring. That's fantastic, and again
12:46
Speaker 3: there's been a great response to that. But sorry, just
12:50
Speaker 3: last point in terms of what I'd say is contradiction.
12:55
Speaker 3: Let's say, with the sort of oh well, we're railing
12:58
Speaker 3: against the system at the same time as propping it
13:00
Speaker 3: up by supporting organizations that farm industrially and produce ultra
13:05
Speaker 3: process stuff, which is definitely going to stick us in
13:07
Speaker 3: a sort of NHS hospital.
13:09
Speaker 5: Ward, there are also.
13:10
Speaker 3: The people who will sort of just simply not engage
13:15
Speaker 3: with this stuff at the same time as apparently seeing
13:17
Speaker 3: the problem actually shying away from there being any kind
13:21
Speaker 3: of solution that involves having to having to effectively get
13:26
Speaker 3: a grip of your life and do something about it. Again, sorry,
13:29
Speaker 3: this comes across as being slightly damning, but it's not.
13:31
Speaker 3: I'm just saying what I see, and also with a
13:34
Speaker 3: spin of positivity on it, because I don't think anyone
13:36
Speaker 3: should be shying away from these things. I think they
13:38
Speaker 3: are all achievable and attainable, but you just have to
13:41
Speaker 3: go into it with the right mindset and as I think,
13:44
Speaker 3: pursuit of the principle rather than pursuit of the right.
13:48
Speaker 3: That's the model and that's the thing that works, and
13:50
Speaker 3: I'm going to do that one thing, and I don't
13:52
Speaker 3: think that's the right approach.
13:54
Speaker 2: It's interesting that, you know, if we look back over
13:58
Speaker 2: the body of these banter sessions, one of the themes
14:04
Speaker 2: that that has been recurring over that time has been,
14:08
Speaker 2: you know, what we think about people, their attitudes and
14:11
Speaker 2: what people can do about certain things.
14:14
Speaker 1: And something that.
14:14
Speaker 2: Has been an absolute mantra of the UK column from
14:18
Speaker 2: the beginning is that people need to be actively engaged.
14:22
Speaker 2: It's it's not good enough to just be consuming because
14:26
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously people consume the material that we put out,
14:30
Speaker 2: and it's it's almost like there's a thrill from from
14:35
Speaker 2: being fed doom and gloom the whole time. But whenever,
14:41
Speaker 2: you know, simple things are suggested over the over the years,
14:45
Speaker 2: simple things have been suggested to people, there's always pushed back.
14:48
Speaker 2: At the same time, there's always commentary about never being
14:52
Speaker 2: offered solutions. And I think part of the part of
14:55
Speaker 2: the problem is it's probably a you know, it's it's
14:57
Speaker 2: a human feeling. Perhaps we're all always hoping somebody else
15:01
Speaker 2: is going to solve the problem for us, you know.
15:05
Speaker 2: Chris Coverdil for example, just to follow on from what
15:08
Speaker 2: Charles was saying, is has been for years attempting to
15:11
Speaker 2: encourage people to recognize that paying income tax, paying VAT
15:18
Speaker 2: and all these other taxes is what is funding the
15:22
Speaker 2: beast that is building in front of our eyes, or
15:25
Speaker 2: that it's taking us to war, or building the patopticon, whatever,
15:28
Speaker 2: whatever the issue of the day is, and that maybe
15:31
Speaker 2: we might want to get togethers as a society and
15:37
Speaker 2: effectively run a tax strike until such times as governments
15:41
Speaker 2: are listening to what people are saying to them. And
15:46
Speaker 2: you know what I see out there is a deafening silence.
15:49
Speaker 2: I don't see anybody really getting enthusiastic about that idea
15:56
Speaker 2: joining a campaign, you know, assisting Chris in any way.
16:01
Speaker 2: And you know, people all can't have it both ways.
16:06
Speaker 2: We can't say, well, you know, we're fed fear, porn
16:09
Speaker 2: and doom all the time from whichever media organization happens
16:14
Speaker 2: to be, whether it's mainstream or alternative or whatever it is,
16:17
Speaker 2: and they never offer solutions. When the solutions are offered,
16:20
Speaker 2: and the solutions are promoted on our platform, on other
16:23
Speaker 2: people's platforms, but they're not taken up. So you know this,
16:28
Speaker 2: we've said it so many times begins with fundamental decision
16:32
Speaker 2: by each of us as individuals that we are going
16:35
Speaker 2: to do something to make a contribution. And of course
16:38
Speaker 2: our personal individual contribution isn't going to solve anything in
16:43
Speaker 2: and of itself, but it does contribute, and that contribution
16:47
Speaker 2: does make a difference, particularly for helping other people make
16:51
Speaker 2: their contribution as well. So the solutions are out there,
16:55
Speaker 2: I would say, jerm and we have over the years
16:58
Speaker 2: been offering those. It's really up to each of us
17:01
Speaker 2: to decide whether we're going to become active or not.
17:06
Speaker 4: I think it was what was his name, Milton Friedman,
17:09
Speaker 4: I think who once spoke about actually the virtues of selfishness,
17:14
Speaker 4: and he went on to explain because your immediate reaction
17:16
Speaker 4: is like whoa wha, whoa, whoa whara. But what he
17:19
Speaker 4: was arguing is that when you do something like growing
17:22
Speaker 4: vegetables in your goden, you're actually ultimately doing it for
17:26
Speaker 4: you and your family. But when you have an overflow,
17:30
Speaker 4: it then goes to those around you and it acts
17:33
Speaker 4: acts as something that wasn't there previously. So sometimes when
17:38
Speaker 4: when you put let's say your family first in this instance,
17:41
Speaker 4: it does have a positive impact on your immediate community
17:44
Speaker 4: like that example. At least that is my understanding of
17:48
Speaker 4: something like that. And I think sometimes when you have
17:51
Speaker 4: your priorities correctly aligned, then you can make a difference.
17:55
Speaker 4: Because you can't make a macro difference, as you just
17:58
Speaker 4: pointed out, it's almost impossib But the difference that you
18:02
Speaker 4: make on a micro level makes a huge difference to
18:05
Speaker 4: you and into those immediately around you, and then it
18:08
Speaker 4: kind of it spreads out beyond that.
18:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, But in order to make a difference on a
18:13
Speaker 2: micro level, the only thing that's required and is organization.
18:17
Speaker 2: And and so you know, it starts off with an
18:20
Speaker 2: individual taking the decision, for example, to grow their own
18:23
Speaker 2: vegetables and want to tad down to the.
18:25
Speaker 1: Vaccine whatever it happens to be.
18:28
Speaker 2: But let's say, let's take the vegetable analogy, because that's
18:31
Speaker 2: that's the one you've begun with. So you grow your vegetables,
18:34
Speaker 2: you share share them with neighbors, that in it in
18:38
Speaker 2: and of itself, might encourage some people to also grow
18:41
Speaker 2: some vegetables.
18:42
Speaker 1: Before you know it, you've got a cooperative going.
18:44
Speaker 2: And then then you're starting to look beyond your immediate
18:48
Speaker 2: neighbors or friends, and look to the larger community and
18:52
Speaker 2: maybe you can encourage other people to do very similar things.
18:56
Speaker 2: You know, I would strongly argue that that the should
19:00
Speaker 2: never be to create some kind of national organization. I
19:04
Speaker 2: mentioned this before in this program, that the fact that
19:07
Speaker 2: Ian Crane, when he was running the anti fracking campaign,
19:10
Speaker 2: was absolutely determined there would be no national organization coordinating that. Yes,
19:17
Speaker 2: you know, local campaign groups would work together with other
19:21
Speaker 2: local campaign groups and that helped to scale the thing up,
19:26
Speaker 2: but there was never any sort of national committee with
19:29
Speaker 2: a national chairman or any of that kind of nonsense,
19:32
Speaker 2: because he felt very strongly and I completely agreed with him,
19:35
Speaker 2: that that once you start building national organizations of that type,
19:39
Speaker 2: you are then immediately in a position to be taken
19:43
Speaker 2: over and the direction of the whole thing changed. And
19:47
Speaker 2: of course the other benefit to doing things on a
19:50
Speaker 2: local level is that you know, a small group of
19:53
Speaker 2: people are much more likely to be able to maintain
19:58
Speaker 2: a direction of travel, and those that group will work
20:01
Speaker 2: with other groups that have aligned values and aligned intentions.
20:06
Speaker 2: At edd a group that doesn't quite align with what
20:09
Speaker 2: you're doing, well, you just let them do their thing
20:11
Speaker 2: and you don't get involved with it. So you know,
20:16
Speaker 2: this is a good model, I think, to build keeping
20:20
Speaker 2: things local and cooperating with other local organizations. Resistance groups
20:24
Speaker 2: historically have operated this way, and this I think is
20:28
Speaker 2: an excellent model to go with.
20:30
Speaker 4: I said to somebody yesterday, I actually wake up enjoying life.
20:34
Speaker 4: But that's kind of where it starts for me, waking
20:36
Speaker 4: up in the day, you know, and next to my
20:38
Speaker 4: wife and my kid wakes up and we have breakfast together.
20:42
Speaker 4: And a few weeks ago, when we were talking about
20:45
Speaker 4: you reconstructing watches and Charles playing bagpipes, it actually inspired me.
20:51
Speaker 4: I pulled out something I haven't done in a long time.
20:54
Speaker 4: I've pulled out my electric guitar and I've been playing
20:56
Speaker 4: playing music again. And that, for me, is a wonderful solution.
21:01
Speaker 4: It brings a lot of joy and happiness, and then
21:03
Speaker 4: everything else seems to get better after that. You forget
21:09
Speaker 4: that sometimes you don't always have to focus on what's
21:11
Speaker 4: out there. Indeed, I think that's very true, although although
21:18
Speaker 4: I would I would say, do focus on what's out
21:20
Speaker 4: there if you're going to play bagpipes.
21:22
Speaker 5: Because it's quite noisy. All right, here we go again.
21:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Charles, I think Charles provided a solution
21:28
Speaker 2: for that the last time I think he.
21:30
Speaker 3: Did before we get derailed totally what you're saying, Friedman.
21:37
Speaker 3: Whether or not he said that, I'm afraid I couldn't say.
21:40
Speaker 3: But the point is a sensible one, and I think
21:42
Speaker 3: it is is one worth taking on board, which is
21:45
Speaker 3: that if you're not yourself in a position of strength
21:51
Speaker 3: and confidence in mind, body, and spirit, then you're not
21:55
Speaker 3: really of any use to either yourself or those around you. So, yes,
22:00
Speaker 3: the word selfish has negative connotations, but you do have
22:03
Speaker 3: to get your own house, your own life in order first.
22:07
Speaker 3: That is entirely logical, and I don't think people should
22:12
Speaker 3: feel in any way that that's the wrongroahch I think
22:16
Speaker 3: that is absolutely how it works, and I think once
22:18
Speaker 3: you are in that position, you would be amazed at
22:22
Speaker 3: how you radiate that confidence and positivity and the effect
22:27
Speaker 3: that it does have, even if you don't necessarily hear
22:30
Speaker 3: about it. And Okay, I can't actually recall necessarily anything
22:33
Speaker 3: specifically now, but I can definitely think of multiple instances
22:36
Speaker 3: over the years where it emerges in conversations years later
22:40
Speaker 3: that something that you said or did to somebody did
22:44
Speaker 3: have a direct effect on the way that they then
22:46
Speaker 3: treated an element of their own life because they could
22:49
Speaker 3: see the benefit in it. And I think these conversations
22:52
Speaker 3: are really important to have because there is absolutely the
22:54
Speaker 3: potential for that every time we do talk about one
22:57
Speaker 3: of these things, it will just create that ignite, that
23:00
Speaker 3: little spark of inspiration for people to consider a little
23:04
Speaker 3: bit more, or to go and have that conversation or
23:07
Speaker 3: whatever it is. So I think just to talk about
23:10
Speaker 3: it is absolutely right, but also sorry just to go
23:12
Speaker 3: back to it. And I know I am a broken
23:14
Speaker 3: record on this, but necessarily so.
23:15
Speaker 5: Of course.
23:16
Speaker 3: The other element about the contradiction of supporting industrialized farming
23:21
Speaker 3: and corporate food is that you are weakening yourself. You're
23:26
Speaker 3: not being given healthy, nutritious food, and you are weakening
23:31
Speaker 3: your body and your mind. You are putting yourself in
23:34
Speaker 3: exactly the position that they want you to be in
23:39
Speaker 3: because you are compromising in every respect. So I think
23:42
Speaker 3: that's another point worth making in terms of the joy.
23:46
Speaker 3: And I don't think he'll mind me saying this, but
23:49
Speaker 3: I will just I think about this on a relatively
23:52
Speaker 3: regular basis. We've talked quite a bit about Angus Macintosh,
23:57
Speaker 3: a fellow South African and indeed somebody I've known all
24:02
Speaker 3: bit sort of on and off for decades and a
24:05
Speaker 3: good friend of mine, well exactly, which is why, which
24:08
Speaker 3: is why I referenced him. So anyone that hasn't picked
24:10
Speaker 3: up on our many references to Angus and what he
24:12
Speaker 3: does in his sort of farming enterprises should go back
24:15
Speaker 3: and look through the interviews that Germ has done, the
24:18
Speaker 3: interview that I did with him a while back, and
24:20
Speaker 3: look at what he does and hand his the positivity
24:23
Speaker 3: in Jackson's life anyway, back in the nineties when staying
24:27
Speaker 3: with his family, I will never forget early evening on
24:31
Speaker 3: the place that by the way they built themselves with
24:33
Speaker 3: their own hands, they fired their own bricks. I mean, honestly,
24:37
Speaker 3: the inspiration that is just phenomenal. Anyway, I'll never forget
24:41
Speaker 3: his father sort of poking about on the on the
24:44
Speaker 3: broy and in his pair of very short shorts, which
24:49
Speaker 3: again much inspiration there. Just he just jumped up in
24:52
Speaker 3: the air and said, Yeppie, it's good.
24:55
Speaker 5: To be alive. And I just thought, wow, that is
24:58
Speaker 5: so cool.
24:59
Speaker 3: And the friend I was with the other brit who
25:02
Speaker 3: I was sort of traveling with at the time, you
25:04
Speaker 3: have over the years since we have said that to
25:06
Speaker 3: each other so many times. It's not true, and there
25:09
Speaker 3: was nothing synthetic or contrived about that. It was absolutely sincere,
25:14
Speaker 3: and it was just it was amazing to watch somebody be,
25:18
Speaker 3: you know, motivated to sort of do that. And I again, Okay,
25:22
Speaker 3: it might seem like a sort of trivial point to make,
25:24
Speaker 3: but I think we have to try and keep this
25:26
Speaker 3: at the front of fill moment. I mean, life is great,
25:28
Speaker 3: and you really do have to remind yourself of that
25:32
Speaker 3: and why and why all these things are worth pursuing,
25:36
Speaker 3: because otherwise, what is the point anyway. So that was
25:38
Speaker 3: just a little anecdote that sort of fits in with
25:41
Speaker 3: what we're doing and talking about these days.
25:44
Speaker 4: I went to visit him recently on his farm and
25:47
Speaker 4: he was standing the beryl of grapes pracing them. He
25:51
Speaker 4: never wears shoes, and he is a strong believer in
25:55
Speaker 4: being connected to the ground as much as possible. I've
25:57
Speaker 4: never seen him isshoes, I don't think. I don't think
26:00
Speaker 4: I've ever seen isshoes other than perhaps when he's driven
26:02
Speaker 4: to the airport or something. In every normal circumstance, he's
26:05
Speaker 4: barefoot and he is always always happy. He just enjoys
26:11
Speaker 4: life so much and it's it's very infectious.
26:13
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that much. Charles.
26:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, No, well I would agree with him on
26:17
Speaker 3: the on the no shoe front that for my money,
26:21
Speaker 3: we've we've moved into that in the last couple of
26:24
Speaker 3: weeks in the United Kingdom. I would I would think
26:27
Speaker 3: I might challenge Angus slightly to do the no shoes
26:31
Speaker 3: through winter here.
26:32
Speaker 5: It's I have to say, but just.
26:35
Speaker 4: A question though in the UK do people wear shoes indoors?
26:39
Speaker 4: Something I noticed when I was in China that they
26:41
Speaker 4: take off their shoes and we've been trying it here.
26:44
Speaker 4: It's difficult to ask people to take off their shoes
26:46
Speaker 4: if they're not used to it. But it's something that
26:48
Speaker 4: we don't wear shoes in our house.
26:51
Speaker 5: No, nor do we. It's funny.
26:53
Speaker 3: No, I think as a rule, I would say in
26:56
Speaker 3: most sorry most British Anames, I think people probably don't
26:59
Speaker 3: take their shoes off. I guess it depends where you
27:01
Speaker 3: live as to what you're going to have brought in
27:03
Speaker 3: with you. But it's I think it's something that I've
27:06
Speaker 3: picked up from other cultures. Yeah, to me, it's not
27:09
Speaker 3: it's well, for years actually has been totally normal to
27:12
Speaker 3: take shoes off.
27:13
Speaker 2: But I don't have to say in our shoes get
27:16
Speaker 2: taken off. And because i've you know, there's three women.
27:19
Speaker 1: Two daughters.
27:21
Speaker 2: The pile of shoes reges the ceiling. It's it is,
27:24
Speaker 2: it's very annoying for looking for solutions. Somebody needs to
27:26
Speaker 2: give me a solution to that problem. But there's no enough.
27:31
Speaker 4: Well, it does keep you as cleaner if everybody's barefoot,
27:34
Speaker 4: or at least it depends.
27:36
Speaker 5: If you're you know, if you're in a place, if you're.
27:38
Speaker 3: Someone where common sense but somewhere dry and you know,
27:44
Speaker 3: with that sort of massive sand or dust or whatever,
27:46
Speaker 3: you know, you're not going to be constantly tramping stuff
27:47
Speaker 3: in and out of the house. Yeah, okay, it makes
27:49
Speaker 3: sense to have your shoes on if you if you
27:50
Speaker 3: live in a rural environment where you've got mud and whatnot.
27:54
Speaker 3: Doesn't matter how enthusiastically you wipe your feet before you
27:56
Speaker 3: come in, you will always bring sort of wet, muddy
27:59
Speaker 3: footprints in. I mean that for me, that's it's just
28:01
Speaker 3: that simple. It's simply it's just a practical answer. But
28:04
Speaker 3: actually i'd say I far prefer being without shoes. I
28:08
Speaker 3: would far prefer not to have to wear shoes or
28:11
Speaker 3: socks actually.
28:12
Speaker 5: And the fact I've always found this.
28:13
Speaker 3: Interesting with in terms of marketing running is you know,
28:16
Speaker 3: all these things, all these so you know, you've got
28:18
Speaker 3: to go running, jogging, whatever that they did in the
28:20
Speaker 3: nineteen seventies and learn behold what happened. Everyone got running
28:23
Speaker 3: injuries because Nike started selling cushion trainers and people ran wrong.
28:27
Speaker 3: And okay, there's there's a whole amount of science that
28:29
Speaker 3: goes into this. Very interesting. But the other thing is socks,
28:33
Speaker 3: the idea that you have to wear socks with shoes,
28:35
Speaker 3: with running shoes because the other persistent complaint, of course,
28:39
Speaker 3: people get blisters. I've worn socks with running shoes for
28:43
Speaker 3: I don't know, twenty years and never ever get blisters.
28:46
Speaker 3: So your feet just, you know, whatever, everything adapts, and
28:49
Speaker 3: therefore any grits and whatever that you get in the shoe,
28:54
Speaker 3: your feet just just deal with it. And it's so
28:56
Speaker 3: funny how we are we just get conditioned and thinking, well,
28:59
Speaker 3: I've got to get I must get a really good
29:01
Speaker 3: pair of you know, running socks or walking socks or
29:04
Speaker 3: whatever it is, so that I don't get blisters. Well,
29:07
Speaker 3: actually no, you don't necessarily need that. You just have
29:10
Speaker 3: to perhaps think a bit differently about it.
29:12
Speaker 4: I don't know if you remember or even preps know
29:16
Speaker 4: of fairly famous South African athlete.
29:21
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, absolutely, you know one, yeah, absolutely, Well she
29:28
Speaker 3: did a few other things.
29:29
Speaker 5: I mean she was, she was.
29:31
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I vividly remember zad
29:35
Speaker 3: And and the controversy that surrounded her personally and South
29:39
Speaker 3: Africa at the time in order to it. Yeah, no,
29:41
Speaker 3: she she absolutely was here she did.
29:45
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yeah, quite right.
29:46
Speaker 3: As you should, As you absolutely should, and I will
29:49
Speaker 3: I'll go a bit further if anyone does even have
29:52
Speaker 3: a flicker of interest in this. And I I feel
29:55
Speaker 3: like I'm sort of promoting him on some sort of
29:58
Speaker 3: contractual basis, which is not the case. But I just
30:01
Speaker 3: love what he writes. I referenced a book called Natural
30:03
Speaker 3: Born Heroes, I think just before Christmas by an American
30:06
Speaker 3: called Christopher MacDougal, who's basically a mainstream journalist, but I
30:10
Speaker 3: think he's researched and incredibly interesting things, particularly man's adaptability
30:15
Speaker 3: and sort of stamina, endurance, all that kind of stuff.
30:17
Speaker 3: But he I forget whether I think he wrote a
30:20
Speaker 3: book either just before or just after called Born to Run.
30:23
Speaker 3: It is absolutely fascinating and it deals with sort of
30:29
Speaker 3: three different things. But it's an anthropological study that runs
30:33
Speaker 3: alongside his own investigations into distance running barefoot and how
30:40
Speaker 3: we should I say, should how he as far as
30:44
Speaker 3: his researches lead him to believe, how do respond to
30:50
Speaker 3: long distance travel? And how it is that humans were
30:53
Speaker 3: suited to being able to chase down praise. So actually
30:56
Speaker 3: this does very much play into the sort of what
30:58
Speaker 3: should we eat thing? And are we supposed to be
31:01
Speaker 3: eating grains or are we supposed to be eating animal
31:04
Speaker 3: products and all that kind of thing. It's absolutely brilliantly written.
31:08
Speaker 1: Where do you lean? Well, I.
31:12
Speaker 3: Go, but yes, okay, I think that, yes, absolutely, we
31:16
Speaker 3: were designed to be able to equipped with the tools
31:21
Speaker 3: to be able to eat animal products because we have
31:25
Speaker 3: the endurance capabilities to be able to chase down large
31:28
Speaker 3: animals in that they have sprint qualities that we don't have,
31:33
Speaker 3: but they will exhaust themselves, and so we are designed
31:36
Speaker 3: for the long, long hunt. And the only thing that
31:38
Speaker 3: I think I I'm not quite so sure about is
31:42
Speaker 3: the sort of evolutionary aspect and the development of the
31:45
Speaker 3: human brain, because essentially he puts it there's obviously it's
31:48
Speaker 3: not his science, but he subscribes to the view that
31:53
Speaker 3: we evolved as human beings in so far as our
31:57
Speaker 3: brains assumed a much more prominent place in i don't know,
32:04
Speaker 3: sort of the across the spectrum of mammals because we
32:09
Speaker 3: had access to animal protein. Now, he makes a very
32:12
Speaker 3: strong case for it, but it's as though he's saying
32:15
Speaker 3: if we hadn't done that, if we hadn't been chasing
32:17
Speaker 3: these things down, and we had just existed on sort
32:20
Speaker 3: of nuts and fruits and whatnot, that we wouldn't have
32:22
Speaker 3: developed into the species that we are today. I'm not
32:25
Speaker 3: sure that that. I don't know. I mean, I'm not
32:30
Speaker 3: sure quite what I make of that exactly, but the
32:33
Speaker 3: rest of it to me does make complete sense, and
32:35
Speaker 3: it makes total sense to me, alongside the idea that
32:38
Speaker 3: there was an agricultural revolution, which I know we've talked
32:41
Speaker 3: about before, where people were basically sold the idea of
32:44
Speaker 3: abundance from ceasing to do that and to living in
32:48
Speaker 3: at the same place and growing, you know, asking nature
32:51
Speaker 3: to do something it didn't want to which was to
32:53
Speaker 3: start to grow grains in order that you could produce
32:55
Speaker 3: that so appers have more children, and of course it
32:58
Speaker 3: utterly defeats its own purpose because the next thing, you know,
33:00
Speaker 3: you've got more children than food and you're you know,
33:03
Speaker 3: you're trapped in the cycle. That essentially we're still living
33:06
Speaker 3: out now. But just the physiologically that what he describes
33:11
Speaker 3: with man's endurance, and this ties in with natural born
33:15
Speaker 3: heroies as well. But the idea of fat as fuel,
33:18
Speaker 3: which this might sound like gobbledegook to anybody who's not
33:21
Speaker 3: looked into it at all, but it's basically the split.
33:24
Speaker 3: And it actually goes back to what Tim Noakes talks
33:26
Speaker 3: about because where he got this absolutely back to front
33:29
Speaker 3: as to whether we require carbohydrate predominantly or fats and proteins.
33:33
Speaker 3: And I'm absolutely certain that it's the fat and protein thing. However,
33:36
Speaker 3: because of the agricultural revolution, it looks like, if you
33:40
Speaker 3: subscribe to what Peter Dedamo says in the Blood the
33:43
Speaker 3: Blood Type Book, it looks like the original meat eating
33:47
Speaker 3: qualities of the human, which are described by the O
33:49
Speaker 3: type blood group, then splintered into A and B. According
33:54
Speaker 3: to Terrain. Well, sorry when I say to rain. I
33:57
Speaker 3: mean where in the world they were and what was available,
33:59
Speaker 3: and that's where we see weigh waitings towards either grains
34:03
Speaker 3: or dairy. So yeah, really potted version. But it is
34:07
Speaker 3: blinking interesting and it does absolutely go back to the
34:10
Speaker 3: wild earth. Would you eat stuff out of a supermarket
34:13
Speaker 3: when you know it's an ultra process and sprayed in,
34:16
Speaker 3: you know, sprayed in goodness nays what? It doesn't make
34:18
Speaker 3: any sense.
34:20
Speaker 4: I can personally just test it on myself. I mean,
34:23
Speaker 4: I can cut back on carbohydrates and just eat very
34:28
Speaker 4: high fat protein diet. And I started gymming pretty much
34:31
Speaker 4: after my kid was born because I realized that he's
34:34
Speaker 4: going to grow up and he's going to be stronger
34:35
Speaker 4: than me and I can't let that happen.
34:37
Speaker 1: So there's nothing you can do about that.
34:39
Speaker 5: That's encouraging it. That's your role.
34:41
Speaker 4: So I so I bought a gym at my house,
34:45
Speaker 4: which also, by the way, is a solution. This is
34:48
Speaker 4: another solution rather than sitting and doom scrolling on my phone.
34:53
Speaker 4: I am lifting weights in my gym, you know, a
34:55
Speaker 4: few times a week, and it doesn't take up a
34:57
Speaker 4: lot of time if you if you do it right,
34:59
Speaker 4: but my point was you can test yourself. You can
35:01
Speaker 4: eat stuff out of a box and you can see
35:04
Speaker 4: how you how you do with the with the weights,
35:07
Speaker 4: or you can eat you know, whole food and you
35:09
Speaker 4: can see how you progress.
35:11
Speaker 1: You can test it.
35:12
Speaker 4: You don't even have to look at the theory, and
35:14
Speaker 4: it's as clear as the day for me, which which
35:16
Speaker 4: direction I leaned to you? And it's the same direction
35:19
Speaker 4: as you.
35:20
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I always remember growing up, you know,
35:23
Speaker 2: saying it because kids programs inevitably would have stuff about,
35:28
Speaker 2: you know, world's Strongest man and this kind of thing,
35:30
Speaker 2: and they always talked about the quantity and types of
35:34
Speaker 2: food that they were eating, and they weren't eating stuff
35:37
Speaker 2: out of packets.
35:38
Speaker 1: They were they were.
35:39
Speaker 2: Eating you know, steaks and eggs and high protein, high fat.
35:44
Speaker 2: That's that's what they were doing, and that's what was
35:46
Speaker 2: necessary for them to lift the kinds of weights that
35:49
Speaker 2: they were lifting for these kinds of compositions.
35:52
Speaker 4: And I mean see, thanks to people like Tim, our
35:55
Speaker 4: child doesn't eat breakfast cereals for example. I mean, you know,
35:59
Speaker 4: he was involved in that, in that lawsuit a few
36:01
Speaker 4: years ago, which he won, thankfully, where he was making
36:03
Speaker 4: the argument that kids should be eating proper food. Also,
36:07
Speaker 4: I don't know if you get If you get this
36:09
Speaker 4: in the UK, we call it wheat pics or wheata picks.
36:12
Speaker 1: Or something like that.
36:13
Speaker 4: It's like it's like a do Do you also get
36:17
Speaker 4: it rectangular weetabix?
36:19
Speaker 5: It's called here.
36:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they got their invariant, but the brand
36:23
Speaker 3: is weetabix.
36:24
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.
36:24
Speaker 4: So I grew up eating this and we all thought
36:27
Speaker 4: that this was healthy. You know, this was this was
36:29
Speaker 4: better than corn flex or whatever Kellogg's puts out. No, no,
36:34
Speaker 4: you were told YEA for classic classic. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
36:39
Speaker 4: It doesn't need to be the case. This morning, our
36:41
Speaker 4: little guy was eating sausage and an egg. No cereals
36:46
Speaker 4: nothing from a box, and he's never been sick.
36:49
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's it. I think.
36:52
Speaker 3: The other thing, which I do find interesting in okay,
36:54
Speaker 3: I wasn't there. So can we be entirely certain about this?
36:57
Speaker 3: I believe we can. What fascinates me, sorry so many
37:01
Speaker 3: going back to the world's Strongest man and whatnot? How
37:04
Speaker 3: many feet of strength and endurance were carried out one
37:11
Speaker 3: hundred hundred and fifty years ago or more? That haven't
37:14
Speaker 3: that either, No one's really matched to date or people
37:18
Speaker 3: find it very hard. You'd think you were always given
37:20
Speaker 3: the idea, particularly when say you chart the sort of
37:24
Speaker 3: the record for one hundred meters sprint or whatever that
37:27
Speaker 3: we are constantly progressing. But in actual facts specifically was
37:31
Speaker 3: strength that doesn't really appear to be the case. There
37:35
Speaker 3: are a lot of records of okay it was. It
37:41
Speaker 3: was a different system then, but particularly lifting stuff, you know,
37:47
Speaker 3: whether it was a car or I'm the chap I'm
37:50
Speaker 3: thinking of actually is the pretty sure he's called Angus McCaskill,
37:56
Speaker 3: the oh what's he called? The giant anyways, absolutely enormous
38:00
Speaker 3: man who lived on the Isle of Lewis, off the
38:02
Speaker 3: northwest of Scotland, who was described by Queen Victoria as
38:07
Speaker 3: the stoutest man in all the kingdom, and she gave
38:10
Speaker 3: him some sort of special medallion or whatever it was.
38:13
Speaker 3: But he lifted an anchor at the port at Stornaway
38:17
Speaker 3: that forget it was reckoned to have well, I think
38:20
Speaker 3: it weighed. It did weigh two thousand pounds. No one,
38:23
Speaker 3: no one else has ever done that, you know, no
38:26
Speaker 3: one ever did it since and now you know there
38:28
Speaker 3: are there are interesting instances of that. So again this
38:31
Speaker 3: idea that stuff like Weta Bix or this, you know,
38:34
Speaker 3: whatever it is, that this will build you up, this
38:36
Speaker 3: will make you strong, but it's not a whole food.
38:39
Speaker 3: I don't think that's coincidence. I think we although we
38:42
Speaker 3: might not acknowledge it, because people do spend more times
38:46
Speaker 3: in gym so sort of weight training, specifically strength training,
38:51
Speaker 3: I think it creates the illusion that we've got stronger.
38:53
Speaker 3: I don't think we have. I think I think in
38:55
Speaker 3: general people probably are weaker.
39:00
Speaker 2: I think the part of the problem here, Charles, is
39:02
Speaker 2: that people don't go to gyms for strength or for health,
39:06
Speaker 2: for lojevity. They're going to gyms to gyms for for
39:11
Speaker 2: narcissistic reasons, right, And I think I think you know,
39:15
Speaker 2: then under those circumstances, everything is wrong about that, because
39:20
Speaker 2: because diet will be wrong about you know, the whole
39:23
Speaker 2: the whole gamut. Resisting this has to be a holistic thing.
39:28
Speaker 2: It has to go from one end of the spectrum
39:31
Speaker 2: to the other. We can't just do one thing, and.
39:34
Speaker 4: You have to sleep enough and all the extra things.
39:37
Speaker 4: But I mean, I think it's very very important to
39:40
Speaker 4: be personally healthy. We've said as many times before, and
39:42
Speaker 4: I don't think you can say it enough actually, but
39:44
Speaker 4: I mean, if you don't want healthy, you're never going
39:47
Speaker 4: to win any information war was because your brain will
39:49
Speaker 4: be foggy. You just you're just never going to act
39:52
Speaker 4: on an on an on an optimal level.
39:55
Speaker 2: Well and a day you'll just be spending so much
39:57
Speaker 2: time just trying to deal with poor health instead of
40:01
Speaker 2: you know, and not having the energy to do the
40:04
Speaker 2: things that need to be done. That that's part of
40:07
Speaker 2: the there's no diet in my mind, that's part of
40:09
Speaker 2: the reason why people aren't active and engaged is because
40:13
Speaker 2: they are actually basically unhealthy.
40:17
Speaker 4: And not just that no energy, but not just that
40:20
Speaker 4: you're talking about going to the gym. There are a
40:21
Speaker 4: lot of people in the gyms, but have a look
40:23
Speaker 4: at what they're doing. It's just so much nonsense. It's
40:27
Speaker 4: like a whole industry of of of empty workouts, you
40:31
Speaker 4: know that don't really You'll see the same people there
40:33
Speaker 4: year later and they still look exactly the same. And
40:36
Speaker 4: that's because you know, they although they're trying and they
40:39
Speaker 4: think they're doing the right thing, that the whole industry
40:42
Speaker 4: is not really actually given making them progress. It's just
40:46
Speaker 4: it's just a money making machine. I mean that I
40:48
Speaker 4: think is also just a whole nother field of of
40:51
Speaker 4: of interest, at least for me, because I mean, I
40:53
Speaker 4: don't want to spend hours and hours in the gym.
40:56
Speaker 2: People are being given diets that they can never actually
40:58
Speaker 2: sustain because because they they are just constantly and in
41:02
Speaker 2: a state of suffering. And so you know, you got
41:07
Speaker 2: to start. You've got to start with something that can
41:09
Speaker 2: be actually sustained and maintained.
41:13
Speaker 4: And I mean you mentioned earlier, you know, Charles, that
41:15
Speaker 4: you bought of a cricket club. One of the knee
41:18
Speaker 4: jerk responses I get when I talk about sports or
41:20
Speaker 4: something like that, they go, it's bread and circuses, But
41:22
Speaker 4: it is, in my view, it's important to also be
41:25
Speaker 4: involved in an activity that you find fun, even if
41:28
Speaker 4: it is cricket.
41:30
Speaker 1: What do you mean, even if it's cricket.
41:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I know how to interrupret that. Yeah,
41:39
Speaker 3: oh I agree, And again but it's.
41:41
Speaker 4: Cricket's a great game, but it's not as great as
41:43
Speaker 4: it used to be in the nineties and two thousands.
41:45
Speaker 4: I mean, at least in the Britain. England still had
41:47
Speaker 4: a great team I think back then, remember Michael Vaughan
41:50
Speaker 4: and Graham Gooch and Kevin Peterson, who, by the way,
41:53
Speaker 4: was actually our guy.
41:54
Speaker 5: Yeah, well one of several. I know. No, it's easy
41:58
Speaker 5: to put the roast and it's back on.
42:00
Speaker 1: I mean, and Atherton, he was good. I liked him.
42:04
Speaker 3: I think in terms of personality, I think I think
42:06
Speaker 3: the corporatization of sport has been has been a real
42:10
Speaker 3: tragedy and the production of these very dull, sort of
42:15
Speaker 3: monotone individuals who are just controlled by contracts and and
42:23
Speaker 3: you know, the professional the professional era has not been
42:26
Speaker 3: a good thing for sport in terms of inspiration, which
42:30
Speaker 3: I think is a great shame because going back to
42:32
Speaker 3: say Zela Budd, who really did capture the public imagination,
42:37
Speaker 3: I mean, there was no suggestion that she was sort
42:39
Speaker 3: of controlled by anyone as these guys now. I mean, Okay,
42:43
Speaker 3: occasionally you will get a character and in fact one
42:45
Speaker 3: such and this I find this very interesting. I did
42:48
Speaker 3: a short piece on him on the on the news
42:52
Speaker 3: some months ago. But there's a Manchester City has a
42:54
Speaker 3: has an enormous Norwegian player called Harland Irling might have
43:00
Speaker 3: that he's either Earling Harland or Harland Earling. I'd be
43:02
Speaker 3: shot for saying getting that wrong by presumably anyone that
43:06
Speaker 3: actually follows football. But the interesting thing about him is
43:09
Speaker 3: that he is absolutely all over what we're talking about.
43:12
Speaker 3: He only eats meat and drinks raw milk, and he
43:16
Speaker 3: goes out from wherever he lives in or near Manchester
43:19
Speaker 3: to a tiny organic farm and stocks up on stuff.
43:23
Speaker 3: But the thing is, because he's, you know whatever, his
43:25
Speaker 3: mid twenties and the most prolific goalscorer for both his
43:28
Speaker 3: country and his club, everyone thinks he's amazing, and therefore
43:31
Speaker 3: young people are absolutely being influenced by him, and that's
43:36
Speaker 3: a real danger for the establishment because the narrative over
43:40
Speaker 3: here is that raw milk is dangerous in a way
43:44
Speaker 3: that nobody's ever really satisfactually been able to evidence, And
43:47
Speaker 3: there he is absolutely making sure that people are in
43:51
Speaker 3: no doubt that he gets it and that he treats
43:54
Speaker 3: his body with the respect it deserves, and he will
43:57
Speaker 3: only put certain things into it because he knows he
43:59
Speaker 3: needs to perform a level but also he just wants
44:01
Speaker 3: to be happy and healthy, and that's massive. But he
44:05
Speaker 3: is absolutely an exception in that he's he's a personality.
44:09
Speaker 3: Now I could be a bit harsh, I would say
44:11
Speaker 3: it's no coincidence that he's not British, But then again,
44:14
Speaker 3: how would I know. I'm very out of touch with it,
44:15
Speaker 3: But no, I agree, and I think there wasn't There
44:19
Speaker 3: was a sort of golden age, even if it wasn't
44:21
Speaker 3: necessarily represented by results on the field. But there was
44:24
Speaker 3: a golden age for English cricket where the guy's playing
44:28
Speaker 3: were real characters. But that was because they were not
44:31
Speaker 3: you know, they weren't professionals. They had other A lot
44:34
Speaker 3: of them had other careers, they had other things they
44:36
Speaker 3: did in life, and I think that's that's really important
44:39
Speaker 3: that we do all exactly what we're talking about.
44:41
Speaker 5: We do all do other stuff.
44:42
Speaker 3: You know, the okay biased because he was a Gloucestershire player,
44:46
Speaker 3: but Jack Well, Jack Russell, the longtime England wicket keeper,
44:50
Speaker 3: absolutely brilliant artist and he kept up, you know, whilst
44:53
Speaker 3: he was playing, he was he was painting, and they
44:57
Speaker 3: all did other stuff. They were interesting people and that
45:00
Speaker 3: made for it, you know, being an interesting game and
45:03
Speaker 3: an interesting oatland. And I'm not just banging the drum
45:06
Speaker 3: for cricket. Doesn't it doesn't matter what it is, but yes,
45:09
Speaker 3: if you can do something that you feel genuinely sort
45:11
Speaker 3: of enriches the soul. Then why not? I think the
45:15
Speaker 3: why not now is because a lot of these games
45:18
Speaker 3: sadly have become corporate battlegrounds. And look at all these
45:23
Speaker 3: programs that particularly are aimed at children and all the
45:28
Speaker 3: other things that get brought into it. So you've got this,
45:31
Speaker 3: that and the other thing going on too for young communities.
45:35
Speaker 3: But actually the message that they're trying to put across
45:39
Speaker 3: will always be muddled in with something else. It's not
45:42
Speaker 3: just about joy through sport, it's sport plus something else,
45:47
Speaker 3: and that is that is absolutely not right. So I
45:50
Speaker 3: think one has to really does have to discern if
45:53
Speaker 3: you're looking at it for either yourself or anyone younger.
45:56
Speaker 4: That's a good observation. I wonder if the corporatization of
46:01
Speaker 4: sport has deteriorated the quality of sport. I don't know
46:05
Speaker 4: if it's intrinsically bad to be paid to be a sportsman,
46:09
Speaker 4: you know, if you love it. But I remember during
46:11
Speaker 4: the Aparte years in South African rugby, and now So
46:14
Speaker 4: African rugby is obviously a big deal. And I don't
46:18
Speaker 4: know if you remember players like nas Berta. Yeah, now
46:23
Speaker 4: during his era, a lot of the players because the
46:26
Speaker 4: world was sanctioning us, we couldn't really compete anyway. The
46:28
Speaker 4: players weren't actually being paid salaries. They were playing for
46:33
Speaker 4: the love of it, and they were representing the spring
46:36
Speaker 4: Box for the love of it rather than getting paid.
46:39
Speaker 4: They're still their day jobs now, obviously all changed. But
46:42
Speaker 4: I can't decide if it isn't necessarily a bad thing
46:48
Speaker 4: to corporatize sport. Maybe it is.
46:49
Speaker 1: I don't know.
46:51
Speaker 2: I think football has absolutely taken a level that is
46:56
Speaker 2: totally undesirable because once you have foot ballers earning more
47:01
Speaker 2: in a day than people are earning in ten years,
47:05
Speaker 2: then a lifetime be exaggerating. That's slightly but but you know,
47:08
Speaker 2: it's that's that's.
47:10
Speaker 1: Not rational, that that kind of thing.
47:12
Speaker 2: And and so you know, Charles is sided one individual
47:17
Speaker 2: in a in a in a player market, which is
47:20
Speaker 2: which is obscene, and and most of them behave.
47:24
Speaker 1: Obscenely as a result.
47:27
Speaker 2: So you know, once once you've got that level of
47:30
Speaker 2: big money, and it definitely changes.
47:34
Speaker 1: And I don't think, you know, I.
47:37
Speaker 2: Think that you know, okay, the corporate side of it
47:42
Speaker 2: is is is unpleasant.
47:44
Speaker 1: It's unpleasant.
47:46
Speaker 2: The players are clearly benefiting immensely because of the salaries
47:50
Speaker 2: that they aren't. But but equally there's constant complaints about
47:54
Speaker 2: the the number of games they've got to play and
47:57
Speaker 2: the injuries that they receive because they've got to because
47:59
Speaker 2: they're effectively for playing. And for the people that are
48:02
Speaker 2: fans of the of the sport, it's no fun either
48:05
Speaker 2: because they can't watch any you know, very they can't
48:09
Speaker 2: watch very much on terrestrial TV. They got to buy
48:11
Speaker 2: Sky subscriptions and all the rest of it. It's that
48:15
Speaker 2: the season ticket prices are off the skill as well.
48:17
Speaker 2: So no, I'm not sure that anybody particularly wins, other
48:21
Speaker 2: than the corporate entities from having a sport organized that
48:25
Speaker 2: and the way that it has or is becoming.
48:28
Speaker 4: Maybe it's a good thing though, because I mean, we
48:31
Speaker 4: really shouldn't be supporting a lot of this, this mega
48:34
Speaker 4: corporatization of stuff through subscriptions, and I mean, I don't
48:37
Speaker 4: think anybody should be paying to watch Netflix, for example.
48:40
Speaker 4: So it might be a good thing if it's corporate tized,
48:42
Speaker 4: because then you can push back and go, well, I'm
48:44
Speaker 4: not going to do that. I'm actually gonna have you.
48:45
Speaker 1: Don't push back. This is part of the problem.
48:49
Speaker 5: I think it's sad.
48:50
Speaker 3: I mean just I mean, you haven't got a TV, Charles,
48:54
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't don't know what i'd do with one.
48:56
Speaker 3: But on cricket though, I think because I can't really
49:01
Speaker 3: speak for the other things, and maybe cricket sort of
49:04
Speaker 3: in a category of its own. But what has happened
49:08
Speaker 3: with the corporatization is that as a sort of died
49:12
Speaker 3: in the wool cricket lover, you can't help but be
49:15
Speaker 3: somewhat disappointed by what happens at the grounds because basically,
49:19
Speaker 3: the moment there was a corporate machine driving it, then
49:24
Speaker 3: the priority was profit and not cricket. What that's meant
49:29
Speaker 3: is that the okay, going back to bread and circuses,
49:33
Speaker 3: obviously the point of it is entertainment. You don't go there.
49:36
Speaker 3: I mean, cricket always gets test. Cricket in particular it's
49:39
Speaker 3: so boring. Well yeah, okay, if you don't understand it,
49:42
Speaker 3: and absolutely some games can be less entertaining than others.
49:45
Speaker 3: But the thing is that when you've got the well
49:48
Speaker 3: bums on seats, merchandise, money cycle, then there's a requirement
49:53
Speaker 3: for it to be entertainment in order that you can
49:56
Speaker 3: then flog it as a corporate product. And what I
49:59
Speaker 3: would say is that that that has had a negative
50:02
Speaker 3: effect because in two respects. One is that a lot
50:05
Speaker 3: of money is made on selling boxes. So you can
50:09
Speaker 3: take your company or you'll you know, entertain corporate clients
50:12
Speaker 3: in a box. But that's typically people who absolutely don't
50:15
Speaker 3: understand what they're watching. And then the other thing is
50:17
Speaker 3: that people don't really see that they don't get what's
50:20
Speaker 3: going on. And then a classic example is that of
50:22
Speaker 3: that is what's called a crowd catch. So it's not
50:26
Speaker 3: uncommon if you hit a cricket ball hard enough into
50:29
Speaker 3: the ground, it will bounce up and if there's a
50:32
Speaker 3: fielder there, they will catch in. Obviously, when somebody's bowling
50:35
Speaker 3: at about ninety miles an hour and you hit the ball
50:37
Speaker 3: into the ground, it will get to a fielder very quickly.
50:40
Speaker 3: And you can tell what kind of an audience you've
50:42
Speaker 3: got because when somebody when if the ball is hit
50:45
Speaker 3: like that, so it's bounced and it's been caught by
50:47
Speaker 3: a fielder, people will only have seen the fact that
50:49
Speaker 3: it's been caught and they will think that it's a wicket.
50:52
Speaker 3: They think it's out. So you get it's called a
50:54
Speaker 3: crowd catch. You get a huge cheer, and of course
50:57
Speaker 3: nobody's out and nothing's actually happened. The ball's just been fielded.
51:00
Speaker 3: Would never have happened prior to the corportization of crickets.
51:04
Speaker 3: So when you're watching as a cricket lover, it's just
51:07
Speaker 3: so tedious, just thinking, oh my goodness, you know, I'm
51:10
Speaker 3: literally just surrounded by idiots who are just there for
51:13
Speaker 3: champagne and goodness knows what, because they don't care about
51:17
Speaker 3: the game. Okay, should I really think like that if
51:20
Speaker 3: they're there and they're having fun and they are in
51:22
Speaker 3: some way contributing to the sustainability of the game, I
51:28
Speaker 3: don't know. The trouble is because of what's happened with football,
51:31
Speaker 3: and then everybody else sort of following suit. The genie's
51:33
Speaker 3: out the bottle, and what do we do about it? Well,
51:37
Speaker 3: what we do about it, I think is we ensure
51:39
Speaker 3: that the people who are coming in as younger players
51:43
Speaker 3: are in no doubt that the reason they're doing that
51:45
Speaker 3: is because they love the game. And this is why,
51:47
Speaker 3: this is why I sort of issue a warning about
51:51
Speaker 3: what else is attached to the sort of junior programs
51:56
Speaker 3: that are being run for any of these things, because
51:59
Speaker 3: if there's any such estion of any other agenda at play,
52:01
Speaker 3: than you've you've lost it.
52:04
Speaker 4: The thing though, just just on the cricket thing, I
52:06
Speaker 4: think one day cricket formed as a result of speeding
52:10
Speaker 4: it up a little bit, just to make it bit exciting,
52:12
Speaker 4: because five day cricket is very strategic obviously, but very
52:17
Speaker 4: low scoring traditionally, and people also like to watch bigots,
52:21
Speaker 4: which I think is where that's sort of where the
52:23
Speaker 4: one day day night model came in. I mean, let's
52:26
Speaker 4: be honest. I mean one of the most memorable games
52:28
Speaker 4: of cricket ever was between South Africa and Australia that
52:31
Speaker 4: when they scored four hundred and thirty each, that is
52:34
Speaker 4: an was an incredible game. I mean, it was unbelievable
52:38
Speaker 4: how they scored so much. I mean that one game
52:41
Speaker 4: T twenty I think is probably not really cricket, but
52:44
Speaker 4: and that's just a marketing machine. But I mean I
52:47
Speaker 4: think one day cricket still also is long and fairly
52:50
Speaker 4: strategic and also a lot of fun.
52:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, it can be absolutely yes, I suppose that there is. Yeah,
52:58
Speaker 3: there is no getting away from the fact that it's
53:02
Speaker 3: that primarily it's there as a as a sales opportunity.
53:05
Speaker 3: And I think one just you know, you just have
53:08
Speaker 3: to be really more wary of that these days than previously.
53:13
Speaker 3: And I think also again, why would I expect anything
53:17
Speaker 3: different but the way in which all of these industries
53:20
Speaker 3: just collapsed, notwithstanding their necessity to keep things going in
53:27
Speaker 3: order that the money kept turning. But that they all,
53:30
Speaker 3: you know, during the sort of COVID emergency, they all
53:33
Speaker 3: just rolled over. That's that is really indicative. And I again,
53:40
Speaker 3: rightly or wrongly, I would like to think that had
53:44
Speaker 3: had that corporate control not been there, then I would
53:47
Speaker 3: think that some smaller clubs would have made more rational
53:51
Speaker 3: decisions and would have said, well, we have a duty
53:54
Speaker 3: to our players, to our members to keep things going.
53:57
Speaker 3: And if people consider that there's a real and they
54:00
Speaker 3: don't want to be a part of that, then they
54:03
Speaker 3: don't have to come. But the trouble is that the
54:06
Speaker 3: corporate element, like like we said right early on in
54:09
Speaker 3: this this conversation, how you you set the you set
54:12
Speaker 3: up the idea about something and then you just just
54:15
Speaker 3: let it run and look at how everything was shut down.
54:18
Speaker 3: So anyway, that's perhaps a bit of a stratech.
54:21
Speaker 4: Actually, a good example of how corporatization of sports can
54:24
Speaker 4: ruin it is if you if you look at women's cricket,
54:27
Speaker 4: nobody goes. I mean, the stadiums are always empty because
54:30
Speaker 4: nobody really cares. And and that's a result of the
54:33
Speaker 4: corporatization of cricket. Not saying that they're not putting their
54:36
Speaker 4: hearts out, but nobody cares because nobody wants to watch
54:38
Speaker 4: because it's slow and not nearly as fat and high
54:41
Speaker 4: pace and energetic. But it's just the nature of what
54:44
Speaker 4: happens when it is corportized, and this is a bad result.
54:47
Speaker 4: We're a bad consequence.
54:48
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean one
54:51
Speaker 3: of many of you know, and we've obviously talking a
54:54
Speaker 3: bit about cricket, but this is, this is across the board,
54:56
Speaker 3: you know, the corportization of anything. I would say as
55:01
Speaker 3: I can't I can't really think of an example where
55:02
Speaker 3: the result has been good for for all concerned. It
55:05
Speaker 3: just it just isn't okay.
55:09
Speaker 4: On this somewhat uplifting solutions based episode, I am going
55:16
Speaker 4: to walk away in a good mood.
55:17
Speaker 1: I viewer to you.
55:22
Speaker 5: You have to. It's it's mandatory.
55:25
Speaker 4: It is it is all right, Mike Charles. I'll catch
55:29
Speaker 4: up with you next week.
55:31
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks jem
55:34
Speaker 5: Hm hm