Latest / Ministry Minded / Writing and Preaching and Throwing Spaghetti at the Wall with Dave Zahl

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Writing and Preaching and Throwing Spaghetti at the Wall with Dave Zahl · Ministry Minded

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[music]
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SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
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SPEAKER_00: a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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SPEAKER_00: in our messy ministries.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm of course your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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SPEAKER_00: I serve as the senior pastor at Stonington Baptist Church right here in Paxinus, Pennsylvania.
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SPEAKER_00: And on today's episode, I'm delighted to have a friend and colleague in ministry
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SPEAKER_00: Dave Zoll joined the show Dave of course is the founder and director over
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SPEAKER_00: at Mockingbird Ministries where I write for on occasion he's also
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SPEAKER_00: a prolific writer himself an established author he's written such books as
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SPEAKER_00: The Big Relief
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SPEAKER_00: Seculosity Low Anthropology and many others and all of those books
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SPEAKER_00: of course are ones that I've recommended and shared to both friends
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SPEAKER_00: and other ministry leaders and it was a delight to have him on the show as we get
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SPEAKER_00: to talk about
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SPEAKER_00: Talk about that sort of the crossover the overlap between pastoring and preaching
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SPEAKER_00: and also writing and what makes both of those crafts different
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SPEAKER_00: but also what makes them the same what makes them challenging
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SPEAKER_00: and what makes them also thrilling as well
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SPEAKER_00: Talking from writer to writer it was just a joy to talk about that craft what goes
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SPEAKER_00: into that what goes into writing not just a post for Substack but also what goes
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SPEAKER_00: into writing a book itself what are some of the things that make that such a unique
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SPEAKER_00: What are some of the ways in which that also carries over into writing a sermon
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SPEAKER_00: and delivering it to your people? It was such a joy to talk with Dave about that.
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SPEAKER_00: It was such an honor just to kind of work through that process,
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SPEAKER_00: see the ways in which that is uniquely challenging
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SPEAKER_00: in today's social media-driven culture,
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SPEAKER_00: what makes an author's job a little bit more of a hurdle to kind of get through,
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SPEAKER_00: and what makes it meaningful.
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SPEAKER_00: It was a joy to talk with Dave about that.
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SPEAKER_00: If you are at all interested
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SPEAKER_00: In writing, if you're a pastor, a preacher, I think this episode is really going to bless you.
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SPEAKER_00: It's really going to speak to you as we kind of get a little bit honest
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SPEAKER_00: about what is involved in that process.
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SPEAKER_00: And so anyway,
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SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll sit back, relax,
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SPEAKER_00: enjoy this episode as Dave and I talk about writing and preaching and so much more.
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SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
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SPEAKER_00: it's uh it's really good to see you again I just saw you a couple weeks ago
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SPEAKER_00: in Charlottesville but I'm so happy that I can see you at least
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SPEAKER_00: through pixels it's better in person but pixels will suffice
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SPEAKER_01: for now how are you doing Dave I'm well I'm well Brad thanks
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SPEAKER_01: for having me it's uh uh not to the dog days of summer but we're not that far away
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SPEAKER_01: from them either so uh I was at a swim meet
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SPEAKER_01: with my nine-year-old till late last night and today I'm uh
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SPEAKER_01: having to figure out how to get kids to the dentist and things like that so
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SPEAKER_01: before we go to the beach in a couple weeks so it's all running to stand still
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SPEAKER_00: the throws of summer calendars and trying to juggle all of them and keep them all
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SPEAKER_01: in line every year I think it's going to be less and every year it's more so who's
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SPEAKER_00: to blame there that kind of thinking totally me but
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SPEAKER_00: That's right we set up wrong expectations I think sometimes on that
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SPEAKER_00: but I'm really glad to hear that hopefully you'll enjoy your time away here in
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SPEAKER_00: a couple days or weeks or whenever you leave but I'm glad we can sneak this
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SPEAKER_00: in beforehand as we share a number of common interests and passions one of
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SPEAKER_00: which is writing another which of course is preaching among other things and I kind
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SPEAKER_00: of wanted to chat about both those things Dave you're
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SPEAKER_00: I would I mean I don't want to blow smoke but you're
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SPEAKER_00: an accomplished writer having written several books already you know
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SPEAKER_00: the drill you know the process and um I think there is as you and I have chatted
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SPEAKER_00: and you've shared in different talks and whatnot there's there's an overlap
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SPEAKER_00: in some ways between writing of course and
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SPEAKER_00: in preaching um there's also differences I kind of wanted to kind of tease those out
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SPEAKER_00: a little bit um
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SPEAKER_00: But your most recent book is,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: The Big Relief,
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SPEAKER_00: which I would say got a lot of acclaim,
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SPEAKER_00: and you went on some book tours and all those kinds of things.
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SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that you would just reflect on as you've kind of come off
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SPEAKER_00: that mountain,
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SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
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SPEAKER_00: if I can use that terminology,
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SPEAKER_00: as that is kind of closing
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SPEAKER_00: and maybe you're starting another book project pretty soon, probably, hopefully?
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SPEAKER_00: But is there anything that has stood out to you from that whole process?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean I don't not not much of it's that positive but I mean I want to say
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SPEAKER_01: before I even launch into it I'm it's an enormous privilege to get to publish a book
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SPEAKER_01: and yeah I mean I've now published a number of them and
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SPEAKER_01: it's always gratifying to you know the process of putting pen to the page
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SPEAKER_01: and watching something get shaped and edited and and then just see people respond
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SPEAKER_01: to it and to respond to it enthusiastically it's it's a huge privilege
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SPEAKER_01: so like I don't want to sound like I'm taking that
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SPEAKER_01: for granted I would just say I've only been
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SPEAKER_01: an author I've worked on some books that you know I helped with editing books for a
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SPEAKER_01: while before I sort of went out under my own name but in the 10 little less
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SPEAKER_01: than 10 years I've been doing that a little over 10 and
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SPEAKER_01: It has gotten the promotional cycle and the way that people consume books
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SPEAKER_01: and reading I think has changed pretty significantly.
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SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's always the case.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's changed.
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SPEAKER_01: The acceleration of it is undeniable.
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SPEAKER_01: the difficulty in capturing people's attention especially for
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SPEAKER_01: a long long form writing I think it's just become more of a more of a challenge and
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SPEAKER_01: the numbers bear that out you know like the yeah um my books are unfortunate
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SPEAKER_01: that they've sold fairly well but it's I'm told
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SPEAKER_01: that you know 25 years ago those it would have been a you know exponentially more
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SPEAKER_01: because that many more people were reading that many more people reading books um
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SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
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SPEAKER_01: the pressure on an author,
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SPEAKER_01: there's a pressure on a preacher to do this too,
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SPEAKER_01: but I think in a smaller way,
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SPEAKER_01: the pressure on an author to be not just the person who cares about words
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SPEAKER_01: and communication,
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SPEAKER_01: the message and the research,
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SPEAKER_01: but to also be basically a brand and a self,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying anything new, but that pressure's real.
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SPEAKER_01: You have to be a platform unto yourself.
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SPEAKER_01: You're selling your personality as much as you're selling the book.
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SPEAKER_01: you're just selling you know you're a salesperson and that the demeaning or
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SPEAKER_01: that just sometimes I think every author has those moments
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SPEAKER_01: where you're like wait what did I get into this for why am I doing this and
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SPEAKER_01: Am I am is this a creative thing or is this a commercial thing and how
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SPEAKER_01: where do those lines meet and when you get the gospel and your people's faith
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SPEAKER_01: and theology mixed up in it it can become a difficult knot to untie
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SPEAKER_01: but I'd say there's some market differences in the just the lack the people who
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SPEAKER_01: who are buying less books they're reading less books and um they're
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SPEAKER_01: the pressure on an author to sell sell sell and to kind of do
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SPEAKER_01: the hot take thing you know to become a say provocative things online and stuff
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SPEAKER_01: in pithy ways I think it doesn't really suit my personality but there's been
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SPEAKER_01: an uptick in that a preacher
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SPEAKER_01: the main difference is the regularity so if you preach a sermon
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SPEAKER_01: that just is terrible that just thuds
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SPEAKER_01: and you even know it's not good I'm not talking about those sermons
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SPEAKER_01: that you think aren't good and then everyone you know you get
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SPEAKER_01: a response that's clearly the Holy Spirit has used a terrible sermon
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SPEAKER_01: which happens all the time but there are those times when
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SPEAKER_01: a sermon simply doesn't work and you thought it was good or you kind
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SPEAKER_01: of knew it didn't have any pizzazz
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SPEAKER_01: and the truth is you can do it again in a week and people even
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SPEAKER_01: the best sermons people don't really remember as much as we'd like to believe so
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SPEAKER_01: an author you spend three two to three years sometimes five to six on this one thing
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SPEAKER_01: and so if it doesn't go well and if it lands with a silence or something like that
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SPEAKER_01: it's a lot longer to till the next one comes out if
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SPEAKER_01: the next one comes out it could be so demoralizing those judgments could be
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SPEAKER_01: so grandiose that or just so have so much gravity that's a long answer
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SPEAKER_00: to your question I think it's a good answer only because there is that blending of
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SPEAKER_00: the line between like the content machine and whatever you know inspired us
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SPEAKER_00: to write in the beginning like that we could probably like you probably have
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SPEAKER_00: a moment where you could go back like I knew that I would want to pursue this
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SPEAKER_00: to some degree and maybe it's not some like you know some eureka moment
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SPEAKER_00: but there's always like maybe a gradual compounding of inspiration and
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SPEAKER_00: yet somewhere along long too as you say like
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SPEAKER_00: There's, what are we selling?
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SPEAKER_00: Are we selling ourselves?
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SPEAKER_00: Are we forming these brands?
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SPEAKER_00: And I don't like those marketability words,
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SPEAKER_00: but it's almost like what's stopping the machine at this point.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't really know.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm not smart enough to know.
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SPEAKER_00: I think that's beyond my ken,
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SPEAKER_00: but it kind of,
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SPEAKER_00: there's been a lot of times, yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: I would say I would definitely resonate with what you said that I'm taking
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SPEAKER_00: a step back to
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SPEAKER_00: to consider like what am i really doing this for uh the commercial machine
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SPEAKER_00: as you kind of put it or
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SPEAKER_00: or is it is there really like and I think maybe that's like the difference
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SPEAKER_00: or maybe that's what you know what makes a good artist is or if i can use that word
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SPEAKER_00: What drew you in the first place?
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SPEAKER_00: What is really, like, moving you?
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's also what moves preachers, too.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, are you,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I think of that verse all the time in 2 Timothy where Paul's like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know, he tells his young protege,
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SPEAKER_00: preach the word and he tells them don't don't don't do this for like itching ears
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SPEAKER_00: because there's going to be a time when people are just going to just going
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SPEAKER_00: to say things to itch the people's ears and it's kind of like
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SPEAKER_00: the same thing we're getting at like just go along with the machine plug it in
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SPEAKER_00: and just go along with what people want to hear and I think there has to be
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SPEAKER_00: that sense of
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SPEAKER_00: what is act what is actually moving you as a writer
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SPEAKER_00: and I think sometimes I can get lost or sometimes
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SPEAKER_00: that can get forgotten hopefully hopefully not in your case no I so true I think
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SPEAKER_01: You start to flatten out when you're writing for an audience and you're looking for
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SPEAKER_01: a certain response from that audience.
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SPEAKER_01: You start to write to an audience and rather than from whatever is moving you.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's death for I think any artist or preacher.
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SPEAKER_01: If a preacher's up there and they've got people,
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SPEAKER_01: the people they're speaking to are too in their head in the wrong way.
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SPEAKER_01: Meaning like I'm trying to say something that this one person will like.
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SPEAKER_01: you know any preacher will tell you that like the odds are
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SPEAKER_01: that person will not be there this one Sunday you're trying to reach them like
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SPEAKER_01: that just is how it always seems to work but you can't do that you have to sort
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SPEAKER_01: of look at what the scriptures are saying what's going on in your own heart how
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SPEAKER_01: the Holy Spirit is sort of connecting the dots for you
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SPEAKER_01: and I think that's true but the temptation to do that
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SPEAKER_01: in writing is really really immense because you want the book to sell well enough
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SPEAKER_01: that you can write another and then all of a sudden but then it's like did I get
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SPEAKER_01: into this so that I could just keep doing it that feels like a very strange reason
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SPEAKER_01: to get into doing anything or did I get into this because I've got something to say
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SPEAKER_01: because the act of creation is valuable in and of itself and
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think our motives would ever be pure for any of these things
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SPEAKER_01: the preacher will always bring a little bit of that affirm me energy
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SPEAKER_01: to their preaching I don't know any preacher that doesn't but the writer it's like
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SPEAKER_01: on steroids and so if you
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SPEAKER_01: If you're writing from that place, the books are never quite as good.
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SPEAKER_01: But it takes a lot of energy to remain in touch with whatever the core is.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm wedded to the gospel message and it's what some people would term a kind
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SPEAKER_01: of eccentric expression of it or at least a very particular way of talking about
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SPEAKER_01: the gospel.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about things like law and gospel,
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SPEAKER_01: the theology of the cross, the bondage of the will, stuff like that.
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SPEAKER_01: They're not maybe mainstream catchwords, but you want to
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SPEAKER_01: those are sort of signposts that you're sort of holding on to and yet you're
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SPEAKER_01: a person who's growing and changing and living in the world
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SPEAKER_01: and losing you're basically just dying and so
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SPEAKER_01: Preacher, the writer is always going to be a slightly different version of you.
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SPEAKER_01: Whoever's just in time, time is going to be formed in that way.
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SPEAKER_01: And so if you're just trying to repeat the thing you did last time, that's not going to work.
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SPEAKER_01: It's got to be whatever version of Dave is today that the Lord has brought to this point.
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SPEAKER_01: I have to somehow trust that that's going to
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SPEAKER_01: could it be enough?
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SPEAKER_01: And if I'm trying to be a certain version of myself or trying
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SPEAKER_01: to recapture some certain energy from a past project,
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SPEAKER_01: those are millstones and I don't think they work.
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SPEAKER_01: It's like trying to preach an old sermon.
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SPEAKER_01: Like the preachers know this.
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SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, I'm going, I'm going to guest preach at this place.
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SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I just don't have any gas in the tank.
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SPEAKER_01: I've got the, I preached on this passage five years ago.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll just grab that sermon.
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SPEAKER_01: And then you do it and you get up there and your words are kind of empty.
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SPEAKER_01: Like it's,
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SPEAKER_01: you feel,
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SPEAKER_01: even if they're powerful and even if other people don't know,
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SPEAKER_01: you know, and there's a sense of, I'm not fully present in this.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's, it can be a really alienating feeling.
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SPEAKER_00: Now I can speak to that to experience like I've done that same thing.
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SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean to sound like kitschy or weird,
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SPEAKER_00: but it's like, there is a certain level of energy that can't be replicated twice.
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SPEAKER_00: Just as a preacher, like
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SPEAKER_00: and you know you spend all week being consumed by a particular text or whatever
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SPEAKER_00: and you've written all these things and there is that the same maybe not to
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SPEAKER_00: the same degree or maybe to the same degree but even more it's like that same sense
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SPEAKER_00: of like
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SPEAKER_00: Anxiety You Get Maybe Before You Hit Publish On A Substack Post
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SPEAKER_00: But You Feel I Always Feel That Like On Sunday Mornings I This Is Maybe TMI
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SPEAKER_00: But Like I Don't Eat On Sunday Mornings I Preach
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SPEAKER_00: with maybe just a cup of coffee because if I'm if I eat something I'm too anxious
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SPEAKER_00: and I I can't it just messes up not just my insides but it messes everything up
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SPEAKER_00: and it's that energy that I can't wait to kind of bring this message out and I think
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SPEAKER_00: a little bit of that goes into goes into Substack or you know I don't want
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SPEAKER_00: to just talk about Substack but just writing I mean you're on Substack now
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SPEAKER_00: so you know you're part of the you're part of the machine now Dave I guess
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SPEAKER_00: Let's hear your thoughts on Substack Dave let's go
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SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, so far, I think it's less toxic than some of the other platforms I've been on.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think there's less algorithmic suppression.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, so if I'm following Bradley Gray, I will actually see what he's saying.
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SPEAKER_01: And the fact that if I subscribe to you,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm actually going to get what you're...
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SPEAKER_01: That ship sailed on all those social media like eight years ago.
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SPEAKER_01: But I do notice the creeping, you know...
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SPEAKER_01: everything sort of gets worse over time and I don't have any illusions
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SPEAKER_01: that Substack will turn the shelf life of it will probably be another two
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SPEAKER_01: to three years hopefully more but I've just watched it happen
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SPEAKER_01: on every other platform so why would I think it would not happen with this and so
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SPEAKER_01: for me it's like because we're thinking about moving some
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SPEAKER_01: of Mockingbird's publishing over to Substack and then we can import
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SPEAKER_01: a huge mailing list if we want but
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SPEAKER_01: What are we chasing?
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SPEAKER_01: It's very frustrating to people who've built platforms
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SPEAKER_01: and spent 20 years building platforms to all of a sudden realize all the readers
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SPEAKER_01: and writers have just sort of conglomerated in this one thing
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SPEAKER_01: that has been brought together by
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SPEAKER_01: Silicon Valley and you know all the power to them this is the world we live in
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SPEAKER_01: but um it to me someone asked me it's like oh and everyone I know is starting
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SPEAKER_01: a subsack it's like well that's like saying everyone you know is starting
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SPEAKER_01: a Twitter account like it's it's it's social media it's not it used to be
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SPEAKER_01: a public it used to be a sort of a newsletter service and it still is
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SPEAKER_01: but it's I guarantee you
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SPEAKER_01: where the energy is in the social media side of that platform.
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SPEAKER_01: And then once you're on a social media platform, you start to
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SPEAKER_01: Start to think of your writing and sort of what will hit
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SPEAKER_01: in this particular format versus what will hit,
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SPEAKER_01: what was going to do well on a blog post,
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SPEAKER_01: what it does well in a magazine article, what it does.
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SPEAKER_01: The reason that book writing remains a compelling thing,
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SPEAKER_01: and I imagine you'd probably agree with this,
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SPEAKER_01: is that it has staying power beyond whatever platforms are being built.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's just, I was on, you know,
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SPEAKER_01: Twitter and Facebook and Mockingbird's own websites and all these other websites
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SPEAKER_01: for years and websites that have come and gone you know same with you but the stuff
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SPEAKER_01: that people think about are my books and it feels like I put a lot of sound and fury
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SPEAKER_01: into this stuff that the internet just sort of eats and
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SPEAKER_01: so that's why I probably still write more books for my own peace of mind
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SPEAKER_01: that I'm not just like
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SPEAKER_01: Sort Of Howling Into A Void But I Don't Know Maybe People Stop Reading Too So
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SPEAKER_00: That's always the case in all those post-apocalyptic movies, right?
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SPEAKER_00: Like all the books are gone and you have to find them again or something like that.
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SPEAKER_00: So hopefully that's not the case.
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SPEAKER_00: But who's to say?
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SPEAKER_00: I'm not a prophet.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry to sound negative about it.
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SPEAKER_01: I think it's a better platform than the other ones.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll put it that way.
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SPEAKER_00: I also don't think it's ultimately going to end up being that different.
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SPEAKER_00: in the long run but yeah there's like an algorithmic entropy if I can use
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SPEAKER_00: if I can say that like it always kind of reverts to a similar mean um
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SPEAKER_00: at least that's how it's appeared and social media is not that old um and it seems
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SPEAKER_00: to have similar patterns to it um the thing I was gonna I kind of want
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SPEAKER_00: to ask you too is like that
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SPEAKER_00: Publishing world is quite large.
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SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of writers writing a lot of things.
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SPEAKER_00: And the Christian world is similar to that, Christian publishing, if you will.
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SPEAKER_00: What do you say to yourself, Dave, in the mirror?
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SPEAKER_00: What do you say to yourself when it feels like maybe you're just putting a drop
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SPEAKER_00: of food coloring in the ocean?
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SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, at least for me, it could feel
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SPEAKER_00: I feel like that way
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SPEAKER_00: when you put something out there it feels like you're you know putting a little bit
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SPEAKER_00: of food coloring in the middle of the Atlantic and hoping people notice
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SPEAKER_00: and like this kind of gets back maybe to what drives you what moves you
20:51
SPEAKER_00: and like it's not about responses but like is there is there ways in
20:55
SPEAKER_00: which you've kind of not overcome that but like fought that or like navigated that
21:01
SPEAKER_00: in the past
21:05
SPEAKER_01: It's an omnipresent, it's an ever-present struggle, Brad.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't think like no amount of affirmation or readership is enough.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: I've had pieces of writing that have been read by hundreds of thousands of people
21:21
SPEAKER_01: and I've had pieces of writing that have been read by 200
21:25
SPEAKER_01: and there is zero correlation between the audience size and
21:32
SPEAKER_01: and the quality.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: There's just zero.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: It's a timing issue.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: And at this point, it's also a technological issue.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: That's what this thing I know that made an impact on you.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: This guy, Stephen Marsh, wrote a pamphlet called On Writing and Failure.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: And he says the marketplace doesn't test quality.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: It tests timing.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's never been more true.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: And the windows for good timing is...
21:56
SPEAKER_01: are very, very small.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: So that said,
21:59
SPEAKER_01: it takes work on behalf of a writer to remember that because we think
22:05
SPEAKER_01: if I just write a good enough thing,
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Then it will get this readership.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: And why do I need such a huge readership?
22:14
SPEAKER_01: Well, I want fame.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: I want affirmation.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: I want acclaim.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Why do I need that?
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Do I believe the message I'm preaching?
22:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, why am I all of a sudden enslaved to these stats on my Substack thing,
22:28
SPEAKER_01: which I was completely unaware of?
22:30
SPEAKER_01: until about, you know, three weeks ago and everything was going fine.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: So you have to keep a very low anthropology and also the idea that you will...
22:42
SPEAKER_01: you know impact the color of the ocean one one bit has got
22:46
SPEAKER_01: to unfortunately be jettisoned if that happens that's God's work and
22:54
SPEAKER_01: the rest all we do is we just show up we throw we throw spaghetti against the wall
23:00
SPEAKER_01: and we do it because we're alive and because God has given each one of us
23:04
SPEAKER_01: a unique voice and a
23:06
SPEAKER_01: something to say and I think that there's a real beauty and freedom and value
23:10
SPEAKER_01: and simply exercising that the life you've been given but when it comes
23:17
SPEAKER_01: to impact results
23:25
SPEAKER_01: In recovery circles, they always say, I'm in the showing up business.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: God is in the results business.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: It really has nothing to do with me as to whether something gets... Persistence helps.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: There's all sorts of things you could say to a writer.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: If you want to write, just try to keep going.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: The hardest part of being a writer is continuing to be a writer.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: like that's just continuing to do it but i do think if people are as captivated by the message
23:57
SPEAKER_01: is that the only cure for me when i run dry of writing brad is to read something that's really
24:04
SPEAKER_01: great that gets me excited and wanting to share it or wanting to sort of riff off of it
24:08
SPEAKER_01: it's not i can't sit there and sort of will myself into that state there's got to be some kind
24:13
SPEAKER_01: of um influence like i heard this sermon i want to write i'm inspired to write
24:18
SPEAKER_01: about it in which
24:22
SPEAKER_01: um
24:22
SPEAKER_01: i'm
24:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm giving you some jumbled thoughts but I'm surrounded in
24:29
SPEAKER_01: the Christian world I see some stuff that sells
24:32
SPEAKER_01: that I think is totally uninteresting retrograde and like pandery
24:38
SPEAKER_01: and I see some stuff that doesn't sell that I think is brilliant and like
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Maybe time will catch up to you, probably not.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: I also know the fiction world.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: I've got a number of friends who are fiction writers and that's a completely different world.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: The hunger for story does not seem to be impacted in the same way that the hunger
24:59
SPEAKER_01: for essays or nonfiction is being impacted currently.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: The hunger for story has never been higher.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: If I were to talk to my 21-year-old self,
25:11
SPEAKER_01: I'd probably say,
25:13
SPEAKER_01: try to...
25:14
SPEAKER_01: You can be just as compelled by the same message,
25:17
SPEAKER_01: but maybe think about some fiction.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: B.C.S.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Lewis.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's... Yeah, whenever I...
25:27
SPEAKER_00: Similarly...
25:29
SPEAKER_00: Every writer faces some sort of block and I think what all the what I would hasten
25:35
SPEAKER_00: to imagine moves you is the same thing
25:38
SPEAKER_00: that moves me is like this being recaptured again by grace there seems to be
25:43
SPEAKER_00: at least in the circles that we sometimes swim in Dave is like and there's
25:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I want to say it's easier but at least sometimes the on road seems
25:52
SPEAKER_00: to be quicker to finding that inspiration again because I'm always amazed
25:58
SPEAKER_00: at finding some new essay or long lost writer or something or someone
26:03
SPEAKER_00: who articulates
26:05
SPEAKER_00: Just this message that is so compelling in such a new and raw way that, okay, now I understand.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: Let me write on this.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: I just want to get this in front of people.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: But the people who are going to be desperate for that message,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: we're talking about the message of justification by grace through faith.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: are going to be people who are most desperate for it to be the ones who believe
26:30
SPEAKER_01: at least or need it the most, need it the most.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: So if that's you,
26:35
SPEAKER_01: if you're that compelled by it,
26:36
SPEAKER_01: if you're that captured by it,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: it's probably speaking to some core,
26:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: deficiency or a perceived,
26:45
SPEAKER_01: your thirst for it is going to also make,
26:49
SPEAKER_01: you're going to be the sort of person who is going to
26:54
SPEAKER_01: spin themselves into a frenzy of self-critical despair over the perception
27:01
SPEAKER_01: of your writing because that's the same thing that's driving you
27:05
SPEAKER_01: towards this beautiful message and that's the kind of joy and the curse of being
27:10
SPEAKER_01: a neurotic sinner who is captivated by grace is that you wouldn't be captivated
27:16
SPEAKER_01: by grace if you weren't
27:19
SPEAKER_01: in some several desperate for yourself and that desperation is going
27:24
SPEAKER_01: to make you hypersensitive to things like rejection
27:27
SPEAKER_01: and writer writing is rejection that's what
27:31
SPEAKER_01: the Stephen Marsh says writing is not like it's not part
27:33
SPEAKER_01: of writing writing is rejection the more quote unquote success you you achieve
27:38
SPEAKER_01: that just means you you get to be rejected by a different set
27:42
SPEAKER_01: of places like it's it's not um
27:46
SPEAKER_01: I know I've talked to I've experienced enough minor minor success to know that
27:52
SPEAKER_01: to have dealt with sort of younger folks who would love to have had my trajectory
27:58
SPEAKER_01: and yet where I'm sitting I'm like all I can see are the no's all I can see are
28:02
SPEAKER_01: the deals I haven't gotten and the invitations I haven't received and
28:06
SPEAKER_01: so there is no satisfying that that's the law it's just not going to be satisfied
28:10
SPEAKER_01: and so it's this continually returning to
28:14
SPEAKER_01: the what do I want to say what has God given me to say what is what brings me joy
28:18
SPEAKER_01: to write and how the act of creation with which I've been
28:22
SPEAKER_01: that privilege I've been given like where can I be of service
28:25
SPEAKER_01: where can my whatever I have to say be of service
28:27
SPEAKER_01: to other people you can almost hear it in my voice I'm trying to convince myself it
28:31
SPEAKER_01: for two because I'm like you
28:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you mentioned like,
28:39
SPEAKER_00: what was your line a minute ago that it's about showing up, not results.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: But that reminds me of Isaiah 55,
28:46
SPEAKER_00: where the prophet says that it's God's words that will never return void.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: They're never going to fail or fall.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: I think what's so helpful about that for preachers or whether you're preaching or writing,
29:03
SPEAKER_00: It's not my words that end up doing what they're supposed to be doing.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: It's actually God's words that ends up doing what they're supposed to be doing.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: I think that's really helpful.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: It's so freeing that reality because,
29:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not the reality I live in because oftentimes I want my words to stick.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: Ironically enough,
29:23
SPEAKER_00: several years ago I wrote a piece for Mockingbird called The Death of the Preacher.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: um which kind of riffs on that you know that old notion of the death of the author
29:32
SPEAKER_00: where an author has to die for their story to actually live um and there's all sorts
29:38
SPEAKER_00: of conversations surrounding that but I think similarly for
29:42
SPEAKER_00: whether you're writing something on Substack or whether you're preaching something
29:45
SPEAKER_00: on Sunday like if I am so beholden to people getting what quote unquote I want them
29:51
SPEAKER_00: to say
29:52
SPEAKER_00: Odds are they're probably gonna miss
29:53
SPEAKER_00: the message no matter what I think you even referenced that when you gave a talk
29:57
SPEAKER_00: a couple weeks ago in Charlottesville about how like preachers preach and
30:00
SPEAKER_00: then someone comes up to you and they're like I got this and
30:03
SPEAKER_00: which is not what you were intending at all but actually I found a little bit
30:10
SPEAKER_00: of freedom in that just in the sense of
30:13
SPEAKER_00: Trusting the Risen Spirit of Christ to do what he's going to do instead of trying
30:21
SPEAKER_00: to be the spirit myself I guess if that makes sense
30:26
SPEAKER_01: that makes perfect sense I mean this is what the task
30:29
SPEAKER_01: of preaching you're right I think it does involve death and it involves death to
30:32
SPEAKER_01: a lot of things to you know
30:36
SPEAKER_01: critical acclaim or you know social cachet but it also involves death to
30:41
SPEAKER_01: the result like it really is not and it involves death to even what you think
30:45
SPEAKER_01: the sermon should be I think as I get older I was
30:49
SPEAKER_01: a younger preacher I had very specific boxes I wanted to check with each sermon
30:57
SPEAKER_01: and you know I think
30:59
SPEAKER_01: that that's helpful you know everyone has something they're trying to do in a sermon
31:04
SPEAKER_01: and
31:08
SPEAKER_01: and I'd beat myself up if I didn't feel like I don't have
31:11
SPEAKER_01: the right illustration here or like I need
31:14
SPEAKER_01: a little bit more scriptural exegesis here or something like that
31:20
SPEAKER_01: or I just feel like I'm repeating myself too much you know not in the sense
31:24
SPEAKER_01: of repeating the gospel just like this is too easy you know a lot
31:28
SPEAKER_01: of times that's how it feels like this is too simple or something like that I needed
31:32
SPEAKER_01: to dress it up
31:33
SPEAKER_01: in sophistication or rhetorical flair or something like that,
31:38
SPEAKER_01: which I know goes against the spirit of Paul.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: But as I've gotten older,
31:43
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the only ways in which I've mellowed out is around preaching
31:47
SPEAKER_01: where it's like, sometimes it's like, this is what God has for me this week to give.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm not too super impressed with it,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: but I have to trust that this is the message,
32:00
SPEAKER_01: this is the version of this sermon I've been given.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: and I can either go up there with my tail between my legs
32:08
SPEAKER_01: and feel like this isn't good enough and or I can say you know
32:13
SPEAKER_01: I don't quite understand why this is the exact take on the past is it's passage
32:17
SPEAKER_01: that has been speaking to me most loudly but you sort of begin to trust it
32:20
SPEAKER_01: a little bit and that's been a really good thing for me
32:24
SPEAKER_01: because I like every preacher I just have so many voices
32:29
SPEAKER_01: in my head telling me it's got to be better pitier more forceful more
32:38
SPEAKER_01: compelling something like that
32:40
SPEAKER_01: so hmm there have been times i'm like you know i don't think this is an a
32:43
SPEAKER_01: plus sermon but this is also but this the sermon god has given me and I had to trust
32:49
SPEAKER_01: that and usually it's gone okay i mean it has yet to really actually has yet
32:54
SPEAKER_01: you have to go poorly
32:55
SPEAKER_01: What has gone poorly is when I tried to force some certain quota of insight into
33:03
SPEAKER_01: a passage that can't really hold it or isn't really doing it.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: And then I feel like it was more about me than whatever was given to me.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's really on point, Dave.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: And I know you're going to have a lot of thoughts about what I'm going to say next,
33:20
SPEAKER_00: which is I think there's this newer tendency...
33:24
SPEAKER_00: to throw our sermons or our Substack posts into Claude or ChatGPT
33:32
SPEAKER_00: and figure out ways to make them more compelling.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Because we aren't maybe satisfied with what you just said.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is the sermon that God has given.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Instead, we almost fine-tune them out of
33:49
SPEAKER_00: Maybe fine tune them out of their resonance,
33:52
SPEAKER_00: because we've put them through so many,
33:56
SPEAKER_00: we've adapted and changed and we've,
33:58
SPEAKER_00: we've quote,
33:59
SPEAKER_00: we've quote,
34:00
SPEAKER_00: unquote,
34:00
SPEAKER_00: made them more compelling, but actually, there's something lost in the midst of
34:04
SPEAKER_00: and all that.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: You don't need to rehash your AI story unless you want to,
34:07
SPEAKER_00: but I just think it's really fascinating.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: But I think that plays into this,
34:11
SPEAKER_00: that plays into this humanness,
34:15
SPEAKER_00: this weakness, this, yeah, there's this like apparent vulnerability,
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Whether you're throwing something up that you're really not sure,
34:23
SPEAKER_00: you're throwing something up on Substack that you're not really sure is going
34:26
SPEAKER_00: to make it or not, it doesn't really matter, you feel compelled to share it.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: Or whether you're walking behind a pulpit and you're like, man,
34:33
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this is all going to land,
34:35
SPEAKER_00: but I'm trusting what God is going to do through it.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise,
34:39
SPEAKER_00: we're just going to bring something up that Claude has fine-tuned to the nth degree
34:45
SPEAKER_00: and hopefully make it.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean,
34:49
SPEAKER_01: the act of preaching is so difficult and it requires so much
34:57
SPEAKER_01: self,
34:59
SPEAKER_01: what would you call it, like excavation, you know, and attention.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: It requires a lot of spiritual attention.
35:07
SPEAKER_01: Intellectual emotional spiritual attention that of course we want to find shortcuts
35:12
SPEAKER_01: and of course I want to reuse stuff I've used in the past and for me I mean
35:16
SPEAKER_01: when it comes to AI for me I'm pretty sure AI is simply going to be
35:20
SPEAKER_01: a non-starter like I just I don't see a way and there's going to be lots of people
35:24
SPEAKER_01: over the next coming years to be like we can use it in this way but not that way
35:28
SPEAKER_01: or you can use it in this way I think that for me at this point in the game
35:31
SPEAKER_01: if I was 25 I'd feel differently I'll probably just be like you know I just can't
35:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't trust myself enough to know where the line is I'm just going
35:42
SPEAKER_01: to not use it I will use it to tell me how
35:46
SPEAKER_01: to redesign my bathroom you know like I'm not I can't trust it with with with
35:54
SPEAKER_01: this this side of myself because I also know how easy and I this is going to be
35:59
SPEAKER_01: a major thing in years to come you're referencing a story I told where we've started
36:03
SPEAKER_01: from Mockingbird's website we've started to get submissions
36:05
SPEAKER_01: that are not just AI generated but are coming from AI agents um
36:11
SPEAKER_01: and you know since one happened a couple weeks ago we've fed a bunch of things
36:15
SPEAKER_01: through this filter and a lot of it's come up AI you know
36:18
SPEAKER_01: and not just I'm not talking about like it's 70% someone got some help
36:22
SPEAKER_01: with AI it was it was it says 100% this was written by AI
36:29
SPEAKER_01: so yeah I think you lose something I think this is why I also think like it'll
36:35
SPEAKER_01: probably become more important for people not to preach for manuscripts
36:42
SPEAKER_01: Like notes or outlines or something like that because the words will be coming
36:47
SPEAKER_01: from you rather than something you've preordained.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: And I think that the sermons that I remember that speak to me most directly is
37:02
SPEAKER_01: when I feel like a human being is actually speaking to me.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: And they're present in the moment.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: And that's the hardest thing to do as a preacher is to remain present.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: Because you have to relax.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: You have to be really confident in what you're trying to say.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: Some of it only comes through experience.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
37:25
SPEAKER_01: from what I can tell,
37:25
SPEAKER_01: the more AI gets involved, it can produce a simulacrum of feeling.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if ultimately that's good.
37:35
SPEAKER_01: I think it's going to be more of a rarity to have someone who's saying stuff
37:39
SPEAKER_01: that might be confusing at times,
37:40
SPEAKER_01: might be muddled,
37:41
SPEAKER_01: but is coming from them and through them rather than through a optimizable engine.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: But maybe I've already just dated myself and people have written off what I've had
37:53
SPEAKER_01: to say, but I don't think I'm going to be using AI in preaching.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: You're not going to be generating any Beach Boys album to put on Spotify anytime soon?
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, that sort of stuff's fun.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm not like, I think there's all sorts of, when it comes to AI, I mean, I don't, there's
38:12
SPEAKER_01: like I tell people I've just consumed way too much science fiction over the years
38:16
SPEAKER_01: to like be totally cool about it I mean talk about formation I was formed by
38:21
SPEAKER_01: that stuff and that stuff is not like allowing me to approach this enthusiastically
38:27
SPEAKER_01: without a massive amount of trepidation and
38:31
SPEAKER_01: yet I'm also you know I hear someone's like you know how would
38:35
SPEAKER_01: the Beatles have sounded in 2010 you know like that stuff's fun um
38:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know I don't know when it comes
38:43
SPEAKER_01: to preaching I think you're really we're flirting with disaster but I also want
38:50
SPEAKER_01: to be like I recognize that how difficult it is and there are weeks especially
38:54
SPEAKER_01: in people in small churches who have to preach every single 52 Sundays
38:57
SPEAKER_01: a year plus special occasions like you just want one week where you don't have to do
39:03
SPEAKER_01: that work and
39:04
SPEAKER_01: and I don't really blame them.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: I just know that it's going to become much harder to go back
39:08
SPEAKER_01: the other way once you've gone than the other way around.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to close the can of worms once it's opened.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: And that goes for a lot of things.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I agree.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: Totally.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: The other thing I wanted to kind of get at too is just maybe,
39:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
39:26
SPEAKER_00: maybe this will ostracize some people that are listening, but I like understanding
39:34
SPEAKER_00: I think there was at least maybe I'm assuming and I shouldn't assume but at least
39:40
SPEAKER_00: when I'm assuming there was a pretty clear process involved when you were writing
39:45
SPEAKER_00: The Big Relief just because it seems like that book had such a clear message
39:50
SPEAKER_00: that you were wanting to convey but regardless when you're sitting down
39:55
SPEAKER_00: whether it's you know a mess of help or whether it's seculosity
39:58
SPEAKER_00: or low anthropology whatever
40:00
SPEAKER_00: when you're sitting down to figure out quote unquote what am I going
40:03
SPEAKER_00: to say what's kind of like your process do you do you listen
40:07
SPEAKER_00: to Beach Boys all day do you go silent do you have to go into a cabin in
40:11
SPEAKER_00: the woods like what's what's Dave Zoll's process for figuring out
40:16
SPEAKER_00: and like are you mapping everything out or are you just kind
40:19
SPEAKER_00: of more like I'm just going to free flow right and see what happens
40:25
SPEAKER_00: and see what comes up
40:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean it's sweet of you
40:28
SPEAKER_01: to ask Brad I don't always wonder how interesting I'm always interested
40:31
SPEAKER_01: in hearing other people's process but I always wonder how interesting it is
40:34
SPEAKER_00: for other people maybe I'm the only one that's going to listen to this part
40:37
SPEAKER_01: but I'm super interested in this yeah when it comes to my books I try to you know in
40:43
SPEAKER_01: the stage of like the outlining is when I'm doing most of the conceptual work
40:47
SPEAKER_01: in my mind the hardest part of books I find is having like a
40:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, a roadmap of how I'm going to get from here to there.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: And I know I want to say this, I want to say this.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: And this element is really important to this whole,
41:03
SPEAKER_01: this whole thing, this portrait I'm painting.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: And how do I, the transitions are basically the things that need to be figured out.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: So I don't do,
41:15
SPEAKER_01: I do free writing,
41:16
SPEAKER_01: but only once I get to the stage where things are pretty like outlined.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: and so I guess it means I do a lot of the conceptual yeah I do most of
41:26
SPEAKER_01: the conceptual heavy lifting up front and I'm switching stuff around all
41:30
SPEAKER_01: the time once I'm in the stuff and I'm learning things like the great thing about
41:34
SPEAKER_01: the process of writing and for me at least is I'm figuring out what I think
41:38
SPEAKER_01: and what arguments or what observations of mine sound good in my head but only
41:43
SPEAKER_01: in my head or what what actually hold water and what what I said do I think is is um
41:49
SPEAKER_01: You can see once something's on the page and you're a little detached from it,
41:52
SPEAKER_01: you can sort of see if it's a blatant plea for
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Love from or acceptance from some particular audience member or
42:02
SPEAKER_01: if it's something you truly believe you know so I'll have
42:06
SPEAKER_01: a pretty pretty clear outline I usually have a and the process
42:13
SPEAKER_01: of writing is figuring out how I'm going to get from one thing to
42:15
SPEAKER_01: the next once it's all down on paper that's that's the that's the hard part I find
42:21
SPEAKER_01: but then I get into lengthy editing and
42:26
SPEAKER_01: and switching things around.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: I need to have more of myself in here.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: There needs to be more voice.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: How is it balanced?
42:38
SPEAKER_01: I read it out loud.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: I do that to make sure it doesn't sound too clever.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so when I sit down,
42:51
SPEAKER_01: oh, I personally, I write best in sort of public spaces that are crowded.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't write well in cabins in the woods.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: I just mess around and kind of don't do anything.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: I kind of need a little bit of maybe even false urgency, but I wrote Seculosity,
43:13
SPEAKER_01: Most I would go after my kids were down I'd go to this one coffee shop in town
43:17
SPEAKER_01: that was open till midnight and I'd sit there from like 830 to midnight
43:20
SPEAKER_01: and I just write the day's assignment and all of a sudden you switch up and you have
43:26
SPEAKER_01: a chapter and then
43:29
SPEAKER_01: what chapter feels like it should come next and sometimes you end up having
43:32
SPEAKER_01: to flip those things so I like to do like take the larger thing and break it down
43:38
SPEAKER_01: into manageable sizes and then cobble it together and the cobbling is the hard part
43:44
SPEAKER_01: because as anyone knows who's trying to take just like oh I wrote this for the web
43:47
SPEAKER_01: or I wrote this for Substack I'm going to put this next to this next
43:50
SPEAKER_01: to this you almost always end up rewriting everything because it doesn't work in
43:56
SPEAKER_01: the same way
43:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then I have readers.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: I usually have two or three readers who read through my stuff.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: One who's like a more theological person, one who's more of a prose person.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: I always have a female that reads it so that it doesn't feel like just a male head trip.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: And they'll tell me, like, I got lost here.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: Or this feels like you're grinding an axe.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: Or this feels like you don't really...
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Who are you talking to here?
44:29
SPEAKER_01: Or does this really follow from that?
44:31
SPEAKER_01: Or do you need something else?
44:34
SPEAKER_01: But I have a strong sense when I approach the text of what I'm trying to say.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: But I don't try to say it all at once.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's...
44:47
SPEAKER_00: I can see so many parallels in that.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: Only like... Because when I was a younger preacher...
44:54
SPEAKER_00: you have that same tendency maybe you would echo that like where you're trying
44:57
SPEAKER_00: to say everything in your 20 to 40 minute span that you're whatever whatever your
45:03
SPEAKER_00: a lot of time is and actually sometimes that actually makes that makes
45:07
SPEAKER_00: for not very good rambly sermons um that end up saying it's yeah you're like kind
45:13
SPEAKER_00: of throwing spaghetti at the wall and trying hoping that something sticks
45:17
SPEAKER_00: but actually
45:19
SPEAKER_00: as I've as I've grown and developed as both a writer and a preacher the thing
45:26
SPEAKER_00: that I think is so similar
45:27
SPEAKER_00: in both is like let me just say this one thing not everything
45:31
SPEAKER_00: but let me say this one thing and so if I you know write something
45:35
SPEAKER_00: and I'm I have this one idea in mind then I can convey that one idea
45:40
SPEAKER_00: and I think there's something similar to be said
45:42
SPEAKER_00: when you're approaching a sermon too that you're not trying to say everything
45:45
SPEAKER_00: at once because that'll probably end up being just a mishmash of something
45:50
SPEAKER_00: that is actually not very helpful.
45:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, someone told me once when I was writing,
45:57
SPEAKER_01: I think I was writing Low Anthropology and he said,
46:01
SPEAKER_01: he's a guy who's written a bunch of books, he said, don't write your vindication.
46:03
SPEAKER_01: Whatever you do, do not write your vindication.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Meaning the thing that will definitively say everything you need to say and justify your life.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: Even if you're writing a book about justification, like just resist the urge.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: Every book should have, you should 5% of what you said, like he said, you know,
46:21
SPEAKER_01: there's gonna be 5% that doesn't make it into the book and that should be
46:23
SPEAKER_01: the beginning of the next book which I think is good and the same applies
46:27
SPEAKER_01: to sermons too the difficulty for me with sermons and I preach for about when I was
46:33
SPEAKER_01: a younger preacher I preached for longer and that was easier I think preaching
46:38
SPEAKER_01: for shorter amounts of time is much harder and so
46:41
SPEAKER_01: the difficulty is always taking out the things that I'm interested in
46:44
SPEAKER_01: that I think are really kind of decorative almost
46:48
SPEAKER_01: and taking those out and the pressure on me with something like the big relief
46:53
SPEAKER_01: so I tell people like um when I signed up to do seculosity they said you know it's
46:58
SPEAKER_01: a minimum of 50,000 50 55,000 words like that's that's what we want you know um
47:06
SPEAKER_01: and you know when I signed the
47:08
SPEAKER_01: Brick Relief it was like we want a maximum of 55,000 words and
47:12
SPEAKER_01: who knows what it'll be next so the paring down can be very painful
47:18
SPEAKER_01: because sometimes you're like the stuff that you got you got you writing it in
47:21
SPEAKER_01: the first place
47:22
SPEAKER_01: that you started writing around ends up getting taken out that's really hard
47:26
SPEAKER_01: and that's really hard in the sermon as well
47:28
SPEAKER_01: but I've never ever had someone complain the sermon was too short ever
47:32
SPEAKER_01: Never.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: It's always,
47:34
SPEAKER_01: in fact,
47:34
SPEAKER_01: the shorter I go,
47:35
SPEAKER_01: the more people seem to listen,
47:36
SPEAKER_01: which is really demoralizing for someone who used to put a lot of time
47:42
SPEAKER_01: into these long sermons.
47:44
SPEAKER_01: I hear a lot of myself in those old sermons.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: yeah for someone who loves either both listening to preaching or just the craft
47:52
SPEAKER_00: of preaching or someone who loves long-form essays that is
47:56
SPEAKER_00: a really disheartening thing to realize and recognize
47:58
SPEAKER_00: that actually shorter is probably going to be more helpful and conducive
48:03
SPEAKER_01: to people actually paying attention it's clearer too it is clearer yeah I mean darn
48:10
SPEAKER_01: it I wish that weren't the case but so yeah I uh
48:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm still I'm not gonna give I'm not close to giving up on the idea
48:20
SPEAKER_01: of writing books I think it's we're preaching sermons I think
48:23
SPEAKER_01: the both are worthwhile even if it's first smaller audiences that's that's sort of
48:29
SPEAKER_01: a hurdle to get over pride wise if once you were writing for large for more people
48:34
SPEAKER_01: and now you're ready for less like but
48:39
SPEAKER_01: the careers of people that I'm the writers for example
48:43
SPEAKER_01: and musicians I'm not sure I'd say this about preachers but a little bit
48:47
SPEAKER_01: about preachers that I most admire are ones that were able to kind of they're not
48:52
SPEAKER_01: the same they're not there's been some movement from when they were 25 to
48:58
SPEAKER_01: when they were 45
49:00
SPEAKER_01: maybe not in terms of the actual content but certainly in terms of
49:04
SPEAKER_01: the delivery system or the person the angles in which you're taking and like there's
49:10
SPEAKER_01: a sense in the Christian world in which that's seen as a threat like to even think
49:14
SPEAKER_01: that you might move or develop in some way that's ipso facto that's a bad thing
49:20
SPEAKER_01: but it's not it's
49:25
SPEAKER_01: Till We Have Faces is a total left turn for C.S.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: Lewis that does not in any way negate it deepens what he was saying
49:33
SPEAKER_01: in his earlier works and that's interesting to me I find that to be interesting
49:38
SPEAKER_01: in musicians too it's still the same person but
49:43
SPEAKER_01: they're writing a different key you know maybe that's how you think of it and that's
49:48
SPEAKER_01: the creative opportunity we have in this dynamic otherwise you just get you become
49:52
SPEAKER_01: a caricature of yourself and I find that to be even on a very minor small scale
49:57
SPEAKER_01: to be
50:00
SPEAKER_01: very
50:03
SPEAKER_01: I guess yeah alienating is the only word just sort of
50:07
SPEAKER_01: who am I what am I you feel phony
50:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's kind of like the paradox, right?
50:13
SPEAKER_00: The paradox of preaching or writing about the gospel is, I mean,
50:19
SPEAKER_00: not to just use that phrase from one of Mockingbird's podcasts,
50:22
SPEAKER_00: but it is the same old song.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: But it's not always played, like you're saying, in the same key.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: It's not always played with the same notes in the same ways.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: There's endlessly compelling ways to communicate this message of grace because,
50:40
SPEAKER_00: the world that we inhabit is a world that is multifaceted it's a kaleidoscope
50:44
SPEAKER_00: of stories and suffering and love and heartbreak but also uplift and I think all of
50:52
SPEAKER_00: that plays into the way in which we can communicate grace in ways
50:55
SPEAKER_00: that continuously surprise and like that's what that's kind
50:59
SPEAKER_00: of what keeps me going is like that endless that endless cavalcade of ways
51:04
SPEAKER_00: that we can
51:05
SPEAKER_00: Bring This Message To Bear On On On People That Are Desperate To Hear It
51:10
SPEAKER_00: Because There's Never We're Never Going To Be I'm Never Going To Be Rung Dry
51:15
SPEAKER_00: With It I'm Never Going To I'm Always Going To Need It
51:18
SPEAKER_00: And I Probably I'm I don't Mean To Just Transfer That To Everyone Else But I Assume
51:23
SPEAKER_00: That Everyone Else Is Gonna Gonna Be Desperate For Just As Much As I Am Too yeah
51:29
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the task.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: That's the task is figuring out where you're desperate for it and speaking from that place.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: And not necessarily about yourself.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: It can be about yourself, but it doesn't have to be.
51:39
SPEAKER_01: But to come from that spot, that spiritual
51:44
SPEAKER_01: actual location as it were and allow the word to be much more authentic.
51:53
SPEAKER_01: The arrow will pierce the heart much more quickly if you're speaking from your own
52:00
SPEAKER_01: pierced heart i think so
52:03
SPEAKER_01: But it's exhausting.
52:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's so many times where it's like, you know, I just want to go to the beach.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to have to think about the deepest things of life.
52:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's this beautiful vocation that also carries with it,
52:17
SPEAKER_01: I guess, responsibility that doesn't always feel like responsibility, but it is.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: And it's a burden.
52:25
SPEAKER_01: And so no matter what, it's writing...
52:29
SPEAKER_01: Preaching is one of the other
52:33
SPEAKER_01: things we haven't talked about,
52:34
SPEAKER_01: but like preaching is local, you know, I really think it's local.
52:38
SPEAKER_01: It's a local event.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: This is why the broadcasting of our sermons,
52:42
SPEAKER_01: I know that we're doing it to make the most of this work we've put out there
52:45
SPEAKER_01: and lots of people are shut in or just can't be bothered to get to church.
52:48
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's mostly a local thing.
52:52
SPEAKER_01: I think writing is a little different than that.
52:53
SPEAKER_01: I think it's, you're trying to write to transcend your, at least your, some of your context.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: And that's going to be a different, that's a slightly different task.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: and so yeah
53:10
SPEAKER_01: for me to like get as a writer I need to disrupt my context sometimes as
53:16
SPEAKER_01: a preacher I sort of need to go deeper into it those are and
53:22
SPEAKER_01: and also just there's just the fact that the sermon no matter what something's going
53:29
SPEAKER_01: to come out of my mouth at 9 a.m. on a Sunday morning and
53:34
SPEAKER_01: When it comes to writing, you can just push it off until you feel it's perfect.
53:37
SPEAKER_01: And that's very different.
53:38
SPEAKER_01: In fact,
53:39
SPEAKER_01: my preaching has actually been an enormous help to my writing because I've had
53:43
SPEAKER_01: to produce.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: It's required.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: You talk to college professors who give the same lectures over and over every year
53:52
SPEAKER_01: and you're like, well,
53:54
SPEAKER_01: what if you had to write a new lecture for every single Sunday and
53:57
SPEAKER_01: then deliver it four times?
53:58
SPEAKER_01: They're like, what?
53:59
SPEAKER_01: That sounds...
54:01
SPEAKER_01: how could we ever expect someone to come up with that much fresh content
54:05
SPEAKER_01: and you're like well welcome to the internet buddy
54:07
SPEAKER_01: but it's also it means you can look back as a preacher
54:12
SPEAKER_01: and be like holy lord I've got this body of things I've said and God has used me
54:18
SPEAKER_01: to say to other people a lot of it's local a lot of it doesn't translate into
54:23
SPEAKER_01: a larger context but some of it does and that's a cool thing hmm
54:29
SPEAKER_00: Dave I know you got to run thank you so much for your time where can people find you
54:33
SPEAKER_00: and what are you working on and is there anything you want
54:35
SPEAKER_00: to just put out there make sure people know about
54:39
SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm on Substack right I mean no I'm trying to figure out what I want to use
54:43
SPEAKER_01: that for if I want to stay there it's you know my mockingbirdember.com is
54:50
SPEAKER_01: where is my real online home and then the Mockham cast
54:55
SPEAKER_01: the brothers all this will come out right as a new season of
54:58
SPEAKER_01: the brothers all podcast is coming out which I do with my brothers who one's a one's
55:02
SPEAKER_01: a pastor and one's a theology professor and we've got some great stuff planned
55:07
SPEAKER_01: for this summer awesome
55:09
SPEAKER_01: and oh and I got a new new
55:11
SPEAKER_01: the newest most recent book I have out is actually called Law and Gospel Theology
55:14
SPEAKER_01: for Sinners and Saints is the 10th anniversary edition which you so have
55:18
SPEAKER_01: so sweetly highlighted for folks but I think it's a I'm very very proud of
55:23
SPEAKER_00: that little book yeah
55:25
SPEAKER_00: I'll definitely get that if anyone's listening did get that book is
55:28
SPEAKER_00: a great entry point into law gospel understanding what that means
55:33
SPEAKER_00: and understanding why it's so resonant Dave it's a pleasure as always thank you
55:38
SPEAKER_00: so much for your time this afternoon man thanks Brad God bless
55:43
SPEAKER_00: That's it for this episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for Dave for joining the show.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: Make sure you go follow Dave over on Substack but also check out mbird.com
55:51
SPEAKER_00: where you can find more of the resources that Dave and the team over
55:54
SPEAKER_00: at Mockingbird push out and to advance the message
55:58
SPEAKER_00: of Grace into a world that needs it.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: But thanks so much for listening.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for commenting, subscribing.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet subscribed to the Ministry Minded Podcast,
56:07
SPEAKER_00: please do so right here on YouTube or on Substack,
56:10
SPEAKER_00: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for doing that.
56:14
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sticking around.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your encouragement.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: It's so good to hear from you.
56:19
SPEAKER_00: All your notes and your encouragement, they go a long way.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: They really encourage me.
56:23
SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for that.
56:25
SPEAKER_00: And until the next episode, blessings.