Latest / UK Column Radio / A Question of Faith: Why Did the CofE Go Wrong? — with Charles Malet and Alex Thomson

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A Question of Faith: Why Did the CofE Go Wrong? — with Charles Malet and Alex Thomson · UK Column Radio

0:08
Alex, we're going to begin a discussion.
0:11
That's a sizable topic, and I'm sure this will carry on over a
0:15
few more discussions. But we're going to begin today
0:18
with an examination, let's say, of the Church of England in
0:23
particular, perhaps set within a wider context.
0:26
We'll see where we go. And as I say those words, I'm
0:30
sure anybody listening or watching will bring to mind a
0:34
litany of specific issues that the church in their minds will
0:39
have got wrong. And rather than necessarily
0:43
nitpicking our way through the details, I think what we're
0:45
hoping to get to today are the connections between those things
0:48
and indeed the influences behind them.
0:52
So I I might say, where better to start than with Justin Welby?
0:57
Who, although has somewhat gracelessly now fallen on his
1:02
sword or at least his crook. He was interviewed by the BBC
1:06
earlier in the year and in expressing his sorrow, or at
1:12
least his regret for some of the things that he believes he
1:16
didn't handle too well, he said if you want perfect leaders, you
1:21
won't have any leaders now. What do you think he was hoping
1:26
we would take from that? I think Charles, that Welby was
1:31
hoping that we would continue to see the Church of England in the
1:35
way that he and many of the bishops he has seen promoted or
1:41
encouraged to get promoted would like to see the Church of
1:45
England and would like us to see it.
1:46
Namely that it is just another core national institution with
1:51
the same kind of strategy, forecasting and business as
1:54
anyone else. And we could take this question
1:57
of leadership in any particular direction.
2:00
But it's a very secularised, contemporary forward looking way
2:05
of saying nobody's perfect Gov or we all have our foibles.
2:09
Or with a nod towards the alleged Christian mission of the
2:13
Church of England. He was saying we are all
2:15
sinners. But OK, to give him his due,
2:18
well, we probably correctly thought that people are so jaded
2:21
at this point with him in general, him in particular, the
2:25
church in general, Christianity, not even more generally, that
2:28
they didn't want to hear words like Sinner in toned by Welby
2:32
falling on his sword because it would seem like a hollow piety.
2:36
But we could take this a little further.
2:40
I'll give you the decision on where we go with this, but I'll
2:43
just say that it is an intensely personal matter for me, this
2:47
idea of whether the Church of England or other Christian
2:50
denominations exists to furnish people with leadership, and if
2:55
so, which people. Let's start with the words of
2:58
the founder and head of the Church, Jesus Christ himself,
3:02
who told Peter according to one section of the church, but not
3:05
the Church of England. Peter was the first Pope, but in
3:09
any case the the spokesman of the apostles in that first
3:13
generation after his restoration from his fall at the end of the
3:17
Gospel according to John. And in his turn also Peter tells
3:21
other Christian elders, in modern terms clergy this in his
3:26
own epistles. Their job is to feed the flock.
3:30
And it's a very simple point, almost facile, but one that
3:33
needs making that the church exists for its own members in an
3:38
earthly sense. I'm not trying to contrast that
3:40
with glorifying God or being in Christ.
3:42
I'm saying that if you are wanting to ask, answer the
3:45
question for whose benefit should the clergy?
3:51
To use today's terminology, the leaders of the Church be
3:55
thinking and doing and sacrificing.
3:57
It is emphatically for the flock they've got.
4:00
Now in the particular case of the Church of England that means
4:05
let's cut to the caricatures. But many is the word of truth in
4:09
them. This means the half dozen
4:11
grannies you have in your parish Church of a Sunday morning at
4:15
Matins or Eucharist are the people for whom the clergy are
4:20
to think and act and self sacrifice and speak inspiringly
4:24
and truthfully and comfortingly. It is not.
4:28
No matter what kind of churchmanship that is, style of,
4:30
of belief of, of, of how to be a clergyman, no matter what the
4:33
churchmanship is, no Church of England clergy person is
4:38
biblically or historically free to say, but I feel called to the
4:42
whole parish. Well, we could unpack these
4:43
ideas later, but that is the core error that you've made
4:47
straight away. If you talk about leadership.
4:50
I mean, I could get into later how I had more than a trifling
4:54
chance of having been the Archbishop of Canterbury myself
4:57
If I'd totally taken a completely different path in
5:00
life in my early 20s. That might sound startling, but
5:02
genuinely I think I could have been or any other of the lads in
5:06
the same social circles as me. We could get into the the
5:09
hijacking of the of England by certain interest groups, but
5:12
that's why it's personal to me. And just the final thing I'll
5:15
say in this opening response is the first thing I did after
5:18
graduating from Cambridge 20 years after Welby was one of the
5:22
leading lights of the Kikyu, the Cambridge Intercollegiate
5:25
Christian Union there. That's the oldest student
5:28
Christian union in the whole world.
5:31
I think the first thing I did was I went out to the former
5:34
Soviet Union where I was astonished to see that in both
5:36
Russian and the local languages of the former Soviet Union, this
5:40
Calc Word leadership was being borrowed into Russian and the
5:46
other languages out there and was not known in general
5:49
discourse, but was very much a buzzword in the evangelical
5:52
churches there, not even the local Orthodox or Catholic
5:55
churches. But the evangelical churches had
5:57
suddenly imbibed overnight from Anglo American evangelicalism in
6:01
its various guises that the thing to do was to be a leader.
6:05
So there's a few strands to get us going.
6:07
It's not a historical concept, Leadership in the church.
6:09
Well, it's certainly great points that we will pick up on
6:12
as we as we go. I think that the, the bit that
6:15
I'd like to get to is the the link between your description of
6:20
a congregation, which of course is is absolutely accurate for a
6:24
vast number of churches now, which is a couple of old
6:27
grannies making up the congregation.
6:28
But of course, you and I, being of similar age and background,
6:33
have been through a childhood that certainly, I mean, unless
6:37
you would differ, but which involved being in churches where
6:41
there were absolutely more than a few grannies there.
6:44
There are, there are notable exceptions now I think in urban
6:47
areas where there are swelling congregations, particularly of
6:50
younger folk. And that's all well and good,
6:53
but but what is it that connects the dwindling congregations with
6:59
the sorts of things that we could point to in terms of
7:03
church policy or indeed the the misguided approach to the very
7:06
subject of leadership in the 1st place?
7:08
There's there's no ignoring that correlation between society
7:14
apparently on mass, but certainly by community in
7:17
effect, turning away from the church.
7:21
How do you look at that? And, and I mean, is it possible
7:24
to to to go back to a particular point or a series of points at
7:29
which that started to change? We certainly can pinpoint a few
7:32
and I think viewers, I hope, will bear with me if I give a
7:37
little historical detail because it is one of my specialist
7:41
subjects. I have translated a fair amount,
7:44
like whole magnum opuses of major church historians on how
7:50
the Church of England is similar and how it differs from other
7:53
established churches in Europe in the crucial period that's the
7:56
early modern era. So I'll try not to give a whole
7:59
thesis here. But I think it is necessary to
8:02
do so because even very clued up viewers that we may have in
8:06
other English speaking countries, even Australia, which
8:09
is the most similar when it comes to understanding
8:11
Anglicanism to what you find in England and the particular brand
8:15
of evangelical Anglicanism that's very until very recently
8:20
made that nation in Australia so, so vigorous.
8:24
If you're talking to even those very well clued up viewers, you
8:28
will find that they don't quite get it.
8:29
I mean, I've heard American clergymen who have been
8:34
explaining their close links with the British churches to
8:37
their congregations back home in the States, saying to the very
8:41
clued up historically illiterate people in the churches in
8:44
America. You guys don't get it unless
8:46
you've been over to England and lived there, just how
8:48
fundamental this dichotomy is in English Christianity between
8:54
Anglicanism and non conformity. We don't want to give a whole
8:58
history lecture on that. But it really is even more than
9:02
another European countries that historically had a state
9:05
endorsed or established church. It is the bedrock of what went
9:09
on. I mean, I could take a a
9:12
snapshot of almost every century, but that would be far
9:14
too much. Suffice to say that the early
9:17
Church, even the very institutionalised kind in what
9:21
you might call early Roman Catholicism, did understand that
9:26
the believers in Christ, any in any locality, formed the
9:30
congregation. And even at the height of
9:33
mediaeval papal absolutism, that was something that to give Roman
9:38
Catholicism its credit to this day is still acknowledged, but
9:42
that runs in tandem with such a thing as Canon law.
9:46
That is how the church governs itself.
9:47
Now here we have to be very specific already, because if you
9:52
look at Magna Carta, well understood by many of our
9:55
viewers and listeners, what are the institutions right there in,
10:00
in the early 13th century which are already strong enough in the
10:04
English establishment? That which you and I recently
10:07
went through as well in our various ways, which are the ones
10:10
which are strong enough to say towards what is becoming the
10:13
House of Lords, the backbone of Parliament?
10:16
Hey, well, you're rejecting royal absolutism, but you can't
10:20
interfere with our ancient privileges.
10:23
They are the City of London, the beginning of the banking world,
10:27
that is, of course, and they are the Church, but before, during
10:32
and after the Reformation, and this will surprise a lot of our
10:35
viewers, even if they're clued up the Church in that legal
10:38
definition and the scope of operation of Canon law, it's not
10:42
ambiguous. If you talk to any proper church
10:45
lawyers, such as the legal advisers to a particular
10:47
diocese, that means the clergy. No one else is either bound by
10:52
Canon law or enjoys the privileges at law of being the
10:55
church. No one else is governed by first
10:58
of all, the Parliament's of the United Kingdom and then since
11:02
100 years ago, effectively the Synod, but it's still kept at
11:05
arm's length from Parliament. It's one of the few duties that
11:08
Parliament in Westminster still has and and is very keen to get
11:11
rid of. So that that's a a bit of a
11:14
starting point. There are so many more points,
11:16
which I'll just take a couple. During the Reformation, many
11:19
people who like to Cocker snook not just Roman Catholics, but
11:24
other people like cynics of about religion will say, Oh,
11:28
well, this was I'm just Henry the eighth, who who founded this
11:32
church on on nothing on his own marital requirements.
11:36
If you look at a three part series, which I did interviewing
11:40
my father, which you'll find on ukcolumn.org simply by searching
11:43
for literacy in the search bar, and I'm sure you'll be able to
11:46
link them to this piece. You will see my father's
11:48
painstaking case that while it's true that there were politics
11:52
going on, what made the Church of England unique among European
11:56
Reformation models was that there was very much a
11:59
groundswell, as in Germany, a bottom up.
12:02
Lots and lots of what you might call emergent middle class or
12:05
mercantilist. People who could read and had
12:07
time and who could see, who could see that there was a need
12:11
for a, as they saw it, a split with the tyranny of Rome, but
12:15
also a rethinking in a biblical sense of what the church was
12:19
precisely over this point. Is the church a body of
12:22
believers that's visible, or is it the whole of society that's
12:25
been Christianized, that's been christened, sometimes by force,
12:28
but it was a reality then. As you go through, I mean, the
12:31
term Anglicanism by universal historical consensus doesn't
12:36
really get going till a good century after the English
12:38
Reformation, and a bit longer really till the mid 17th
12:41
century, the time of Archbishop Lord and the Civil War and the
12:44
subsequent intolerance of Puritanism that follows.
12:48
All of these might sound a long way away from the experience of
12:51
people listening if they're not engrossed in church history.
12:53
But the point is, at every moment here you've got the
12:58
establishment, the archbishops, the bishops, but also the
13:02
secular establishment, parliament, courts, the crown,
13:05
especially the people hanging on to the crown invisibly like the
13:09
Privy Council. They are always saying, well,
13:12
the church is part of our power structure and compared with our
13:16
continental nearest cousins, the Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians,
13:20
who went to either the Lutheran or the Calvinist model, we have
13:23
in the English model, even distinct from Scotland, we have
13:26
this unique settlement under Queen Elizabeth where she said
13:29
that she did not wish to make windows into men's souls.
13:33
In other words, and this was repeated during the Williamite
13:36
Revolution, the Glorious Revolution at the end of the
13:38
17th century. There was an act of toleration,
13:41
not of complete freedom of religion.
13:43
The idea was we will deliberately blur from
13:47
henceforth in England specifically, not the whole of
13:49
the United Kingdom. We'll blur the distinction
13:51
between committed Christians who happened to be in the parish
13:54
church building and therefore allied with the state and the
13:57
whole parish. The idea of the cure of souls
14:00
being responsible for the conversion and well being of
14:03
everyone in the locality. So the clergy have inherited A
14:06
poisoned chalice. They are continually being told
14:10
by their own political strategists and by the political
14:13
classes in private, that your job is to keep hearts and minds
14:19
on side with the state agenda. Even as they very well know from
14:22
their own Bible study and what's left of their seminary training,
14:26
which is pretty wretched compared with how it used to be
14:28
a generation ago. They will know perfectly well
14:30
that that is neither a biblical nor a historical nor even a
14:32
logical position for what their role is.
14:35
Going back through the history, I mean, sadly, obviously not
14:38
going to be time to to cover everything that's certainly
14:43
within your range of of knowledge.
14:47
But you're absolutely right to point back to that.
14:48
And I think I think there's that sense certainly that people who
14:53
do still attend church or even don't, but but it's kind of part
14:56
of their consciousness will by and large be unaware of that.
15:02
One of the things I was going to want to talk about is not just
15:06
to change to congregations, but also to clergy.
15:09
I think it's observable that the type of person this is perhaps
15:16
unfair because by and large this is perhaps done on appearance.
15:21
But I think it might be fair to say that the type of person that
15:25
represents the Church of England in this day and age is somewhat
15:31
different from those people 50 years ago or even perhaps less.
15:39
Do you, do you think that they really are different people, not
15:45
just in appearance, but but in their manifest beliefs and the
15:49
motivations that have brought them into the Church in the 1st
15:52
place? And and if that is or isn't the
15:55
case, why again would there be that change, transitional or
16:01
apparent sort of point of disconnection?
16:03
Well, I think some of it is not even specific to spiritual or
16:07
religious considerations. Charles, very recently you gave
16:11
an illuminating discussion with Brian Gerrish, which I think
16:15
likewise was going to be to turn out to be the first in the
16:17
series on the question of the military.
16:19
One of the core issues in that first episode of yours is what
16:22
kind of people go forward for recruitment and more
16:25
particularly for officership. And you obviously it pains to
16:29
stress the centrality of the, the tradition of military
16:32
families. And although it's not a biblical
16:34
practise and some kinds of very committed Protestants have
16:38
fulminated against this as being not spiritual, the historical
16:41
reality has been that certain families supplied their sons or
16:45
one of their sons generation by generation as the well, there
16:48
are various terms, the rector, the vicar, the incumbent, the
16:51
priest in charge, the I mean, these are, these are all nuances
16:54
depending on the legal structure of, of how the man in question
16:57
came to fill the parish pulpit. But the man who preached in very
17:01
biblical terms, the elder of the congregation there this, this is
17:05
the way that things were in supplying the army, but also the
17:09
church. Of course, it can be rightly
17:11
caricatured. There are times such as the mid
17:12
18th century when everyone was LAX.
17:15
The term at the time was latitudinarian and thought, ha,
17:18
as long as you do your duty, nobody really cares much about
17:20
book learning or or biblical accuracy.
17:23
But that's how it was. And these families supplied a a
17:27
jolly high degree of backbone. They would stand up against weak
17:32
bishops in very many cases and jealously guard their
17:36
independence. I mean, to this day, when the
17:40
new kind of bishops come in, often managerialist is the best
17:44
word for them. They're the reshapers of
17:45
society, the ones who are, in a nice Dutch idiom, trying to keep
17:49
all noises, all noses, pointing the same way.
17:51
When they decree that henceforth we will worship this way, or for
17:55
the sake of openness and inclusivity, we'll no longer do
17:58
that. These bloody minded older men,
18:01
which is what they almost always are, will know that they have a
18:05
leg to stand on. They are part of a vanishing
18:07
breed of men appointed for life and apart from gross indecency,
18:10
they can't be removed under Canon law by the bishops.
18:13
And they will say no. What has gone on and and much of
18:17
it is undercover of or mixed up with the bringing on board of
18:22
women 1st 30 years ago as clergy and then very recently as
18:26
bishops is that those who have been rights to point out this
18:30
trend towards managerialism and the idea of creating community
18:35
as as the key calling and no biblical literacy or or ministry
18:39
to the to the to the comfortless.
18:43
Such people have been accused of simply being dinosaurs or
18:46
misogynists. But you can give the light of
18:48
that by comparing it with how to give the two closest examples to
18:52
the Church of England, the United Reformed Church, which is
18:55
effectively the success 22 denominations that were close
18:59
successes to the Puritans in England.
19:01
The ones that didn't get on the boat and leave since the 1970s.
19:04
They decided to ordain women, a position that I'm not personally
19:08
in favour of, but they did so and you still got the same
19:12
solid. OK, you could quibble with
19:14
details, but old fashioned ministry to the congregation
19:17
there, you didn't get a revolution overnight.
19:20
Likewise the Church of Scotland from from if memory serves 1969,
19:24
I think it was onwards, the established church north of the
19:27
border did the same thing. And again, there was not the
19:29
same immediacy of revolutionary change or takeover that you saw
19:37
there. Now it has to be said that both
19:38
of those examples, the English URC and the Presbyterian Church
19:43
in Scotland, are, by their founding documents, opposed to
19:46
the idea of bishops. There is no hierarchy above the
19:49
local minister in those denominations, except a national
19:52
Synod. But be that as it may, something
19:55
specific clearly went on in England, specifically with the
19:59
Established Church, the Church of England.
20:01
To mount some kind of coup d'etat and the arrival of women
20:04
both as clergy and then very recently as bishops and now it
20:07
seems as archbishops once now come in Wales and probably
20:10
Canterbury will get one too that is being used as as the the
20:14
smokescreen I think to cover up the complete revolution that's
20:17
going on. Revolution seems exactly the
20:19
right word for it. And actually interesting that
20:20
you brought up the the armed forces or, or the military
20:24
referencing the conversation that I had with Brian recently.
20:28
Military matters, it's called for anyone who's not quite
20:30
certain. And we'll have a link to that in
20:32
the show notes as well. But but but funnily enough that
20:35
that's opposite, because one of the things I was going to talk
20:38
about in so far as the superficial, at least
20:42
superficial hypocrisy of it is the messaging that's gone on
20:47
around what they're describing as the preparation for war.
20:51
And it was Hugh Nelson, who's now Bishop, recently appointed
20:56
Bishop of Worcester and and Bishop of the armed forces.
20:59
And he, he spoke out saying that, well, first of all,
21:02
telegraphing the fact that he absolutely believes that we are
21:05
about to go to war, but also that the the church should step
21:10
up, not let people down in the way that he perceived that they
21:13
did during the COVID event. And I find that fascinating.
21:19
That's been followed up at General Synod by a Brigadier in
21:23
the chaplaincy service, Brigadier Mann, who finished I
21:28
think finished his talk by saying that whilst the Church is
21:32
sometimes overlooked, it is always there in times of need.
21:38
And I found that spectacularly ironic.
21:43
Perhaps not in a military context, because to be fair,
21:47
chaplains do turn up. And they certainly in my
21:51
personal experience, they were people of good substance and
21:57
they were in the right place at the right time.
21:58
And, and I would go along with that.
22:00
But interesting that Nelson would specifically cite the
22:06
COVID event alongside the preparation for war.
22:08
And it's so easy to point over the last, just just the last
22:12
five years alone, the many instances in which the church
22:16
have been almost willfully blind to what might be going on in the
22:23
minds of those people that really are part of the
22:26
congregation. And that level of hypocrisy, to
22:32
me seems like something that would not have characterised the
22:36
church that you've been describing through the ages.
22:40
No, very much not, because the understanding was there for
22:44
centuries that the parish was the basic unit.
22:49
Now, whether you're talking established churches around
22:52
Europe, Roman Catholic Church of England, various kinds of
22:55
Lutheran or Calvinist, or whether you're talking non
22:57
conformist, that's the Baptist, Methodist, and others.
23:00
There's always been agreement that that is the case.
23:04
If the devil's in the details, if you'll pardon the pun, parish
23:09
is not actually the oldest New Testament Greek term for a local
23:14
gathering of Christians, Paroi Kia in Greek, an even older one
23:19
from where we get the word diocese, that is the seat or CS
23:22
EE of a Bishop and his seat of authority.
23:25
That's an even older word. Deoi caesis in the Greek New
23:28
Testament and related terms are etymologically they're the
23:33
concept of the believers and their elders who oversee them,
23:37
their Episcopal, which is the word where we get episcopacy or
23:40
Bishop bishops. They go from house to house, a
23:43
term that you will find frequently in the New Testament
23:46
in any Bible translation. Not to check up on each other,
23:49
but to comfort and exhort one another, to learn from each
23:52
other, to worship, to break bread together, read the
23:54
Scriptures together. So the diocese historically is a
23:57
very, very old term, but the term is, I would say, hijacked.
24:01
I don't think that malice by individual bishops is is at
24:03
play. I mean, you've got huge amounts
24:05
of history to contend with here, such as the collapse of the
24:08
Western Roman Empire so that the clergy were the only men left
24:11
standing who could save Western Europe from anarchy and and
24:15
disorder. But they end up taking on
24:18
administration, even secular administration.
24:20
And before you know it, they sit in a Bishop's palace next to a
24:23
cathedral and they have staff around them.
24:25
That sounds very obscure because it's 1500 years ago, but it goes
24:28
right through to the present and what you're talking about
24:30
because anyone who within or from outside, but on behalf of a
24:36
group of concerned parishioners in the Church of England, anyone
24:40
who knocks on the door of the diocesan office.
24:43
So where the Bishop and his staff hang out is in for a
24:45
couple of shocks from this historical legacy if they really
24:49
pry into it. 1 Is that the diocese, the Bishop and his
24:53
staff at headquarters in each region of England, You could say
24:56
it's not quite county, but more or less they are a ring fenced
24:59
separate charity at law. I mean there's more we could say
25:03
about the Church of England and charity law.
25:05
Many of our viewers will not know, for example, that the
25:08
charity, Charity Commission for England and Wales keeps
25:11
extending an overdue period of grace with the Church of England
25:15
to let them cook their own books.
25:17
I'm sorry to be blunt there, but they do.
25:19
Because the, the, the current excuse by the Charity Commission
25:22
is it's such a volume that we wouldn't be able to cope with
25:25
the auditing. And there's this continual
25:28
promise that eventually the Charity Commission will treat
25:30
them like any other religious or secular charitable organisation,
25:33
but they don't. So the key point there on the
25:36
charity law is the diocese. So the Bishop and the staff in
25:41
in any town, the the the the seat of the the Diocese of any
25:46
Shire. They are a separate charity at
25:49
law. The salaries there, the stipends
25:51
or whatever you want to call them for the secular staff as
25:54
well, like the lawyers and the PR people.
25:56
Increasingly they are separate flows from the Parisians that
26:02
the parishioners giving the parishes are being leaned upon
26:05
mightily to give their parish share.
26:06
We've covered this in some UK column content, but if it all
26:10
goes belly up the the diocesan staff are paid out of a
26:14
different pot. So it rings hollow if they say
26:16
we're all in this together. That's one of the things that
26:19
shocks. Another is if you go to the
26:21
diocesan staff and say the parish church in ex has got a
26:25
valid case that you not take any more of its giving into central
26:29
coffers because the roof is leaking.
26:30
Or whatever it may be. Or they can't meet the the
26:33
latest onerous health and safety or safeguarding regulation for
26:36
our foreign viewers. Safeguarding is the ubiquitous
26:38
British term now for suspecting everyone of child abuse until
26:41
proven otherwise. The first thing the diocesan
26:44
office will not. The first thing, the last thing
26:46
if you really push them, will. They will be that they will
26:49
grudgingly admit that they are all there for His Grace the
26:52
Bishop. They are not there to serve the
26:55
parish with decent legal advice or to put their interests first.
26:59
It's a bit like HR in a corporation.
27:01
They're there to cover the backsides of the men in and
27:04
women increasingly in authority over that structure at the
27:08
Episcopal, the diocesan level. Well, I could go on about that
27:11
further, but those are a couple of the things that repeatedly
27:14
campaigners in the in the positive sense of the word, I'm
27:17
not being snotty about them. Campaigners within the Church of
27:20
England will find that they really are on their own within
27:23
the institution, even though it's universally acknowledged
27:26
that the building was built by the blood, sweat and tears of
27:30
countless pre prior generations. And nobody, even the most
27:33
deceitful type within the structure, has ever claimed that
27:38
that building exists because some central authority willed it
27:42
to be so. It's not like a school or a
27:44
library built by a municipal or national authority or even EU
27:48
taxpayers money or whatever it may have been.
27:51
The Church of England and indeed other established churches
27:53
around like the Church of Scotland are nakedly stealing
27:56
some of these buildings now when they put them up for sale to the
27:59
highest bidder. And I'm afraid to say a lot of
28:01
non conformist denominations in England, the Baptists and
28:04
Methodists in particular, are guilty of the same in recent
28:07
decades going completely over the head of the the
28:10
parishioners. This is not just a a matter of
28:13
principle, it's an actionable matter of law.
28:15
Trust law because even if the word trust is not used in some
28:19
of the key documents, the grants and testaments which which prop
28:24
up the the money of a local congregation, whether it's a
28:27
parish or a non conformist one. Trust law, if fairly operated in
28:32
the courts, will always say these people hold their building
28:36
and their funds in trust from previous to future generations
28:39
of the same local worshipping congregation.
28:42
No hierarchy has got a look in in using those funds or
28:45
hypothecating them for a grand project.
28:47
Yeah, I'm, I'm really glad you brought that up, Alex.
28:49
I mean, I want to come on to the to the area of finance, but this
28:53
will this will strike a massive chord with anyone who has any
28:56
involvement at the parochial church council level or has had
29:00
any dealings with the biosis and administration because it is
29:05
absolutely the case. And I can say that with a with a
29:09
degree of authority from admittedly an anecdotal
29:12
perspective, but I am involved at that level and and that is
29:15
precisely what I do see. So you are totally correct to
29:20
make that point. And I think I would go slightly
29:24
further, perhaps sort of sideways in terms of the way in
29:30
which the appointed priest will deal with some of this, which I
29:35
think can in many cases be to forget that they are indeed the
29:41
incumbent. And as such they have specific
29:45
and particular responsibilities for the period of their tenure.
29:49
But that does not mean that it is that you know, that that
29:53
physical building, that entity, that that church becomes their
29:56
possession with which to do as they choose.
29:59
And therefore the degree of influence, which is exactly what
30:02
you're talking about, the degree of influence to which the the
30:05
the either the incumbent priest in charge or indeed the diocese
30:09
should have over the future of the church building should be
30:13
extremely limited. But I think this is increasingly
30:16
forgotten because of the structures that you describe.
30:19
And the, what I really want to get on to is that is the bigger
30:24
picture in terms of finance because as you say, I mean, find
30:27
me a church in the land that doesn't have a leaking roof or,
30:30
you know, sort of broken floor tiles or something like that,
30:33
where they're constantly calling on the same people to put their
30:36
hands in their pockets at the same time as the Church
30:40
Commissioners sit on £10.4 billion.
30:43
Now, I dare say UK column viewers and listeners will be to
30:49
a certain extent aware of this. And I've written a couple of
30:52
articles about the investment policies of the Church
30:55
Commissioners. But to set some context, that
30:59
number, that figure of what is now 10.4 billion increased by 1
31:04
billion during 2020, which is an absolutely staggering statistic.
31:12
Not only that, but despite their well, at least what they call
31:16
their ethical investment policy, they are restricted, but only to
31:20
a point concerning investments in things like pornography or
31:27
embryonic stem cell research or indeed the production of weapons
31:34
that are specifically designed to kill.
31:38
And you know, there's obvious contradiction, an enormous
31:42
contradiction here as well as we, you know, we could go on.
31:44
I mean, they, they, they espouse to be pursuing net 0, whatever
31:49
exactly that's meant to mean this week at the same time as
31:52
being able to invest in thermal coal.
31:55
So the whole thing is a complete nonsense.
31:58
And in fact, now, just to take it back to the parish level,
32:01
there are now funds made available to parochial church
32:07
councils. They can invest in them, but the
32:10
investment criteria are the same.
32:12
So you might find unwittingly, because people have a tendency
32:16
not to read this sort of detail, that many parishes are investing
32:20
their money in exactly the sorts of things that to my mind, the
32:24
church shouldn't be touching with a barge pole.
32:26
But the what I want to get to really get going backwards is
32:31
that it is hard to see now how the church could operate as it
32:37
does without the enormous sums of money it does sit on.
32:40
My question to you is why should a church hold vast sums of
32:47
money? And I mean I, I mean that sort
32:51
of in a practical sense, but also with relationship to
32:55
history and indeed scriptural interpretation.
32:59
What, what is your view on the use of money in the in in this
33:04
capacity in the first place? I'll take the second half of
33:07
that excellent question first because there's a single verse
33:10
of Saint Paul in Scripture that talks about it at the end of his
33:14
first Epistle to Timothy, which is specifically giving
33:17
directions for how the church is to be governed by elders and the
33:21
other titles that exist in the early church.
33:24
Paul says that one of the main pitfalls is that the love of
33:27
money is the root of all evil. A New Testament Greek, Rizagar,
33:32
Panton, Kakun, he, Phil Arguria. So a couple of things to say
33:35
about that. There's no article there in the
33:38
Greek, so it can also validly be translated is a root of all
33:43
kinds of evil. Clearly, philosophically, if you
33:45
use your novel, there are many sins and high crimes that are
33:48
committed without pecuniary gain in mind.
33:51
And secondly, the word for all in Greek there can also mean all
33:56
kinds of all manner of endless. So Paul is in one sense saying
34:03
whatever category of sin you might find in the church or the
34:05
world, it may well be occasioned by this money grabbing tendency.
34:10
But that is just an ongoing given of our fallen world and
34:13
one that Paul in First Timothy and joins the church,
34:16
particularly its clergy to understand the reality of and to
34:20
mitigate the risks of prayerfully and vigilantly.
34:23
Now, the first half is what about the first half of your
34:26
question was what about this accruing of vast wealth?
34:29
Well, that's a perennial issue. I mean, within the very large
34:33
decent parts of the Roman Catholic Church over a vast area
34:36
of time and space that it's existed.
34:38
This has been one of the philosophical objections.
34:41
The humanists of the same generation as Martin Luther who
34:44
wouldn't go along with his decision to leave the hierarchy
34:47
and start again. Men such as De Sedarius Erasmus
34:50
were very, very hot on this even before the Reformation.
34:54
Men called the morning stars of the Reformation because they
34:58
were the first Bible translators into the vernacular in their
35:00
countries, and that they weren't able to spark a reformation,
35:05
that they suffered heavily for it, but they they started the
35:08
ball rolling. In the 13th and 14th centuries,
35:10
men like Jan Hoose in Bohemia and John Wickliffe in England
35:14
were already fingering particularly this point of
35:18
priests and monks. Let's not forget all the
35:20
monastic life as well, in some cases living it up and in other
35:24
cases simply, you know, be living fairly soberly but
35:27
sitting on massive piles of gold.
35:29
Nowhere more so by the way than in Britain where this against
35:33
the continental average of something like 1/5 of the far of
35:35
the arable land being church possession.
35:38
It was on the eve of the Reformation in England 1/4 and
35:41
in Scotland where good land is a real at a real premium,
35:45
something up to 1/3 of the land being owned by the church.
35:49
Well, how did this happen? You've got to blame naive
35:52
Christians in some sense, because the well to do or those
35:56
who'd suddenly come into money and fortune in their life in
35:59
those years, there's those the centuries leading up to the
36:01
Reformation would in vague terms leave a lot of their wealth to
36:06
the church or some central authority or hub such as a
36:11
monastery and all that. We've said so far about the
36:14
church being the local worshipping body of believers
36:17
biblically and at Canon law. That's that goes out of the
36:20
window. If the money has by a secular
36:24
deed of, of trust law gone to the church in the sense of what
36:28
now is called the church Commissioners.
36:29
They weren't called that then. But the men at the centre who
36:32
hold the purse strings of the national or regional wealth, you
36:36
cannot mitigate that in law. You have to have a clean slate
36:40
really. Or set a mental break from that
36:42
and ask yourself, what do we do at local level with the funds
36:45
still coming through? One of the key insights I've
36:48
gleaned from my father on this broad issue is that whether
36:51
you're talking secular terms in the City of London or religious
36:54
terms, particularly with the Church of England, the insights
36:57
of the men that govern us is always that the little people's
37:02
accrued money power is still more, more trillions more orders
37:07
of magnitude than the big guys and the big institutions.
37:11
The fight, the really grubby mitts fight, is still for the
37:15
fresh flows, OK, small, but endlessly multiplied across time
37:20
and space and generations of giving that come in.
37:24
And this came to a point in the second half of the 20th century
37:26
as the Church of England collapsed, I wouldn't even say
37:29
downgraded, but gave up biblical positions on every area of life,
37:34
notably sexuality. Decade after decade.
37:38
One of the three big parties of churchmanship or conviction in
37:41
the Church of England alongside the Anglo Catholic or High
37:44
Church and the liberal in this in the old sense of social
37:46
gospel, was the evangelical wing.
37:49
That is what you might call the Bible bashes from outside.
37:52
And their nominated leaders, to use that dreaded term again, did
37:58
go beating a path to, if memory serves, Archbishop Robert
38:01
Runcie's door in the early 80's, the Thatcher era, and made yet
38:06
another idle threat. That if the parishes and the
38:10
evangelicals individuals we represent are not satisfied that
38:14
you're using your money responsibly and and not
38:16
frittering it away on on national policy or even arms
38:21
sales or whatnot, we will up sticks and walk.
38:24
And Runcie being a wise man, not particularly an excellent one,
38:29
but said that he knew what was going on and said, well, if if
38:32
you're making this idle threat, then don't say it.
38:34
Do it. You can only do it once.
38:37
And that shut them up because going back to generate 2 decades
38:41
before that to the mid 60s with the famous confrontation between
38:44
Doctor Martyn Lloyd Jones and John Stott over whether
38:47
evangelicals should be in the Church of England or even any
38:49
biblical biblically minded people of any particular
38:52
persuasion. The whole issue was do we stay
38:55
in and seek to influence this behemoth or do we come out?
38:59
Well, frankly that's that's argument was already made in
39:03
Blood and torture and exile 2 centuries before that in
39:07
England, even more powerfully in Scotland than the killing times.
39:09
And it had already crystallised through emigration, puritanism,
39:13
decisions to stay or leave the Church of England.
39:15
It was all shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted
39:18
by the mid 20th century. But the point I'm making here is
39:21
through all of that time, a large number of prominent men
39:25
who would like to go by the credentials of solidly
39:28
evangelical and biblical set themselves up as the anointed
39:33
and appointed leaders of evangelical Anglicanism.
39:36
In some cases, even the term Reformed Anglicanism is used
39:39
within England. I'm talking about, It's
39:40
radically different in, for example, the Archdiocese of
39:44
Sydney and Australia or some parts of Canada and New Zealand.
39:47
But they continually said we make idle threats to leave.
39:51
And when the chips were down, when they were told by an
39:53
Archbishop or a Prime Minister, well, off you go and do it then
39:56
and become disestablished. They decided, inevitably, that
39:59
respectability and positions of influence were more important
40:03
than that. And these are the networks of
40:05
people who tried to tap me up when I was at Cambridge, through
40:08
whom I may have eventually become something big in the
40:10
Church of England if my conscience had been wired rather
40:13
differently than it it actually is.
40:15
Yeah. I mean, I, I'd meant to comment
40:18
on your reference to that earlier in the discussion,
40:21
because I think it seems far less outlandish to consider that
40:26
you might have been Archbishop of Canterbury than it does to
40:30
consider that Justin, well be did actually become Archbishop
40:33
of Canterbury with, with his background.
40:35
It's still, it still does seem very discordant, but just just
40:41
to stick on the, the idea of money and you talk about
40:45
exerting influence. And funnily enough, that's
40:47
that's more or less exactly the phrase that the Church
40:49
commissioners use with regard to their current portfolio of
40:53
equity holdings, because they are heavily invested at the
40:56
moment in the microchip business pertaining to artificial
41:01
intelligence. And, you know, in effect,
41:05
enabling that through the amounts of money they're
41:07
dedicating to it, as well as being very much invested in
41:11
Amazon. And that their explanation for
41:13
this is that it's better to be able to exert influence by being
41:18
in the room. That's the phrase they used in
41:21
the room. Of course, they are unable to to
41:24
point to a single instance where they've changed the course of
41:28
any of these vast tankers as they navigate their way across
41:33
the, you know, seas to greater and greater profits and control
41:37
and and all the rest of it. But I think the question is, I
41:41
referred to what they described as an ethical investment policy
41:45
in church terms. I mean, it is the idea of
41:48
ethical investment a contradiction in terms.
41:52
I think you won't find a single verse in Scripture, Old or New
41:55
Testament, that will answer that cleanly for us.
41:58
And more to the point, many whole passages of Scripture,
42:02
whole chapters in both Old and New Testament.
42:05
And to complete Thomas Hooker's triad, the use of tradition and
42:09
reason in the church as well, which is the the classic
42:11
foundation of Anglicanism. You use them in that descending
42:14
order of, of hierarchy, Scripture, tradition and reason.
42:17
Will not will, will tell us if we put our mind to it, that
42:21
because money is a means of exchange.
42:23
OK, it's subverted into many other things in the age of Fiat
42:26
currency, but because it's a representation of people's value
42:30
in the in the true sense of what they'll bleed for, what they'll
42:32
spend their time for, what they'll wreck their health for.
42:35
Obviously there is going to be so much human motive and so many
42:40
mixed motives and so, so much impurity marvelled with nobility
42:48
in all of these decisions around money.
42:51
The only clear point, as we have in the New Testament in
42:54
particular, is that money given to the church in the biblical
42:58
sense of the worshipping local body, or if you want also to
43:02
include a Synod, a group of churches overseeing each other
43:06
in the biblical and historical way.
43:08
The money is there for diaconal purposes.
43:11
So that's another Greek word we have to look at in the New
43:13
Testament. Diaconos is a general ancient
43:16
Greek word for a servant, not the only word used in the New
43:19
Testament for a servant. There's also who peretes, which
43:22
is more like an attendant and a noble servants, you know, one
43:25
who who serves with with with thought a diaconos not to do it
43:29
down, but it's a practical role. You can read in chapters 6 and
43:34
seven of the book of Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament
43:37
precisely why that church office was hived off from that of
43:41
elders so that the men involved could dedicate themselves to
43:44
seeing to the practical needs. But here's the thing of whom?
43:48
The whole New Testament, not just that passage, but the whole
43:50
New Testament makes it abundantly clear that you take
43:53
care of the household of God first.
43:55
If you don't provide for your own people within the family or
43:58
within the local congregation, you are, as Paul says again to
44:01
Timothy and to Titus, you're worse than an unbeliever, you're
44:03
an infidel. So the diaconal role, the role
44:06
of deacons in the church, the reason for church collections,
44:09
the reason why there's a Kitty physical or now digital at local
44:13
level from which you can give a a share now up to the centre,
44:17
which is what we're talking about when it all goes wrong.
44:19
The reason is only biblically and historically that there are
44:22
weak and infirm people in your midst who are genuinely unable
44:26
to provide for themselves. Set against that, as Paul writes
44:29
to Titus, is that if a man, and it's deliberately a male person,
44:33
if a man is unwilling to work, he shouldn't be allowed to eat
44:37
in the sense of don't give him a handout from church coffers.
44:40
So there is the question of the deserving poor here.
44:43
I mean in the Dutch Reformed set up that I have ended up with,
44:46
they take that to a logical extreme, not a bad one I don't
44:49
think. Whereby they actually make use
44:51
of the conscience, conscientious objection provision that Dutch
44:55
law has not to insure themselves, even their basic
44:58
health insurance or car insurance in some cases.
45:02
But it's not anarchy or irresponsible to their
45:04
neighbours because when something does happen, like a
45:08
bad car accident or an expensive course of treatment is needed,
45:11
the entire church nationally, if needed, will hold a whip round
45:15
and in no time we'll get half €1,000,000 together for the need
45:18
so that your liability is covered there.
45:20
That is the biblical sense of why money is collected.
45:24
Paul gives detailed instructions in his first official to the
45:26
Corinthians. In the middle chapters he says,
45:28
I'm passing through your city again to give you some fresh
45:31
instruction. Don't have a frenzied southern
45:35
whip round when I come, but every time you meet on the first
45:39
day of the week, have a collection for the poor.
45:41
That's the only real New Testament sense in which money
45:44
and the church go together. For Christ said himself, my
45:47
Kingdom is not of this world. So that means not only no
45:50
weapons by held by church officers, but no political
45:53
influence wielded by them either.
45:55
Regardless of where you stand in the whole spectrum of how
45:58
political should Christians be, on which there's been centuries
46:00
of philosophical argument, of course.
46:02
Yes. Well, I think that's something
46:03
that, you know, what you've just articulated is certainly not to
46:06
be found in the text of the Church Commissioners Act 1947.
46:10
It's a very obviously sort of veered off at a significant
46:14
tangent. And I think what I'd like to do,
46:16
you know, we've, we've covered a lot of ground and I think sort
46:20
of we're, we're setting a really important context in so far as
46:25
the history and scripture is concerned.
46:28
I think just to turn our focus to what we have in front of us
46:34
and indeed, therefore to point to obviously a hypothetical
46:38
future because none of us really knows what's going to happen.
46:41
But it is interesting, given what you say about church
46:44
collections for the poor, the needy, the deserving poor.
46:49
I can't see that anybody would disagree with that.
46:52
And yet we see that congregations have dwindled.
46:57
We see that people have turned away from churches.
46:59
We see that ironically, at least on the face of it, people decry
47:04
the fact that British culture, English culture is being
47:09
dissolved, eroded, degraded, and with the very significant impact
47:16
that recent and one might say torrential migration has brought
47:22
about is of course an influx of new cultures, new face.
47:26
Well, when I say new, I mean different.
47:29
And people are apparently at the same time lamenting the fact
47:35
that another faith might be showing, let's say, dominant,
47:41
where Christianity or indeed the Church of England isn't.
47:46
And and yet what doesn't seem possible to discern is that
47:50
people are coming together as church congregations and
47:55
actually doing anything about this.
47:58
And your your point is well made about leadership at the start.
48:03
I think that is a very important point to make.
48:06
But then again, it's perfectly possible for particularly
48:11
bishops who do have a sort of effectively a public facing, you
48:14
know, a public role to set a moral or spiritual example,
48:20
which I would say is sort of as distinct from leadership in the
48:23
way that you were referring to it earlier.
48:26
Do you think that there is a point at which, or a situation
48:32
in which people will gravitate back towards the Church and the
48:37
sorts of concepts of money going in the right direction and
48:42
helping the the sorts of people that of course have not been
48:45
looked after at community or church level and therefore have
48:48
become in effect victims of the state welfare system?
48:54
You know what, when one thinks about it on a very simplistic
48:56
level, there are so many things that could be taken care of in
49:00
one fell swoop if the Church of England as an organisation and
49:04
indeed a parish level worked as it was supposed to and was
49:07
supported by the majority of people living within the
49:10
parishes that do have churches. I don't know whether I'm being
49:14
too idealistic or optimistic. What are your thoughts on sort
49:19
of where we are now and where it could go?
49:21
And in a way, you know, so as I say, the irony of the situation
49:25
in which people seem to be articulating the problem but at
49:29
the same time perhaps not realising that they are part of
49:32
the solution, yet they're not being drawn towards it.
49:35
We have all the historical models both in the church and
49:38
in, shall we say, adjacent institutions like building
49:41
societies in which British Christians, non conformists in
49:44
this case, led the world to solve this issue.
49:48
If we don't want to sully ourselves, our reputations, or
49:51
even our our liberty now by handling money in in an
49:56
increasingly totalitarian model, we'll be where we'll be accused
49:59
of funding terrorism or what not.
50:01
If we if we pay for each other outside the system values, we
50:05
can easily set up at local level or even further afield,
50:09
something like a time bank where we put in ours and our skills to
50:15
assist each other. I mean, you don't need to be a
50:17
Christian or even any kind of believer to understand this.
50:20
Many of the people who've implemented it have been
50:22
principled atheists in various countries around the world.
50:26
It's a thoroughly biblical approach.
50:28
The injunction that several of the apostles give in the New
50:30
Testament in several ways to the fledgling churches is that one
50:33
or two in full vigour, particularly a duty upon men.
50:37
One ought to be earning enough or have enough resources.
50:40
If we want to de financialize the concept, have enough skills
50:43
and time that one not can not only can provide for one's own
50:46
in the immediate sense wife and children and ailing elderly
50:49
relatives or whatever, but also to have something left, as Paul
50:53
put it at one point for those who were in need.
50:55
That is within the local body of believers adherence.
50:59
So this can easily simply simply be done now in institutional
51:04
terms, if a congregation decides that it's still theologically
51:09
Anglican, still committed to that interpretation of the
51:13
Reformation and church history and biblical interpretation and
51:16
authority and hierarchy, but thinks literally to hell with
51:21
the current archaeopiscopal model and all that.
51:23
It hangs on to it in, in terms of the underbelly of the state,
51:27
there are ways to go. There is one shining example in
51:29
England of what was done there. It's it was the late Reverend
51:33
Melvin Tinker in Hull, one of the most godless cities in the
51:36
whole world, certainly I'd say a strong contender for the most
51:39
godless major city in England who had the gumption some years
51:44
ago at the end of his earthly life to lean upon his
51:48
congregation who said yes to come out of the Church of
51:51
England legally. This was a large evangelical,
51:54
non heretical, no funny ideas congregation that simply did it,
52:00
stuck politely speaking 2 fingers up at Canterbury,
52:04
Westminster and everyone in between and said we are
52:07
Anglicans but we're no longer the established church in this
52:09
locality. The building is ours, the people
52:12
are ours, the money is ours, you can whistle for it and at law
52:16
and common sense and morally they were entirely borne out.
52:19
There's also one case in Scotland of the closest
52:22
parallel, the Established Church of Scotland.
52:24
As I said earlier, no bishops there in that established
52:27
church, but roughly similar at law.
52:30
That's the Reverend Willie Phillip at what was called St.
52:32
George's Tron in Glasgow, now simply called the Tron Church.
52:35
They did have to leave their building very unjustly of
52:38
course, because they paid for everything like a new organ and
52:40
it was, it had to be forfeited to the Church of Scotland.
52:43
But they likewise said we are Church of Scotland, we are
52:46
Presbyterians of the established type, type in Scotland, but we
52:49
do not want to be associated with this wicked state and its
52:51
sexual policies in the church anymore.
52:53
And they did it. It can be done institutionally
52:56
and as I was saying a moment ago, in terms of giving.
52:59
In fact, more to the point than that, there were centuries in
53:02
the early church under the persecutions of early Roman
53:06
emperors where Christians not just had the option to, but were
53:09
obliged to use frankly black market, barter and time bank
53:14
methods to help each other out. There were blacklists from the
53:18
professions back then. There were places sometimes for
53:21
protracted periods where Christians officially would
53:24
couldn't get any kind of employment, but they survived by
53:27
the grace of God precisely by having these kinds of attitudes.
53:30
What's holding us back at the moment is that this damned
53:34
quest, wretched quest for respectability socially, which
53:39
even some of the key authors within the evangelical
53:42
Anglicanism like Oliver Barkley have frankly admitted in their
53:45
books, was both, you could say the strength, but also the
53:47
downfall of Anglicanism in the latter half of the 20th century.
53:51
This determination that we will be given our place in the sun by
53:55
this state and by its bien Poisson, by the by the great and
53:59
good. That's what led, what's led them
54:01
to be supine through all the successive waves of sexual and
54:04
other degeneracy and wickedness that have crept into the church.
54:08
And if that's addressed as it has been locally by some, yes,
54:11
there is every prospect of caring for one's own.
54:14
Yeah, it's, it's really well put and I think it's it's
54:17
heartening. And I think that, you know, what
54:18
I would come back to, of course, is the, is that really, if
54:21
you're looking at it as somebody who's either considering going
54:24
into the church or already involved, this, this, this time
54:29
should really be seen as a tremendous opportunity.
54:31
You know, the, the, the number of areas in which we could
54:35
rattle through and suggest that either the controlling
54:39
influences have pushed people off track or society has gone
54:42
off track. However you, however you
54:44
actually decide you're, you're wanting to explain it, the point
54:48
is that there, there is a very, very obvious role for the church
54:53
there and, and to take the sorts of actions that you've just been
54:56
describing. I mean, it's, it's still
54:59
remarkable to me that we live in an age where the Church of
55:02
England will say that, that they will not conduct same sex
55:07
marriages, but that they will conduct marriages for people who
55:13
don't routinely go to church or belong to a congregation or
55:19
indeed have no faith at all. And, and rather remarkably, they
55:24
will conduct marriages in church for people who belong to a
55:28
different faith and even for people who hold a gender
55:34
recognition certificate. So it is possible to do all of
55:40
those things but not be married if you're part of, you know, if
55:45
two people belong to the same sex.
55:46
I mean, the the number of inconsistencies and these sorts
55:50
of issues are are just seemingly endless.
55:55
And I think still a point of enormous incomprehension to
56:01
people who who look on and, and can't quite consider how it is
56:06
that we could have got to this point.
56:09
But I think you point by citing those examples, I think you
56:13
point to a way in which the church can assume in a genuine
56:18
sense, a much greater degree of relevance in people's lives if
56:23
only the right people would in effect, sort of stick their head
56:26
above the parapet and and say the right things.
56:31
So I think what we've covered so far in the discussion today is,
56:38
you know, is a great a great introduction to this.
56:41
I mean, clearly absolutely vast topic.
56:44
What I would just ask you to do with what I've just said in mind
56:49
about the presentation of an opportunity.
56:51
And, and, and in a way, you know, the sort of cometh the
56:55
hour suggestion you, as you said right at the beginning, you've
57:01
been involved very closely with, let's say the church in, in the
57:05
wider sense. I mean, obviously, you know,
57:07
you're not in the United Kingdom.
57:09
So your, your knowledge of the Church of England is clearly
57:12
very deep. And a lot of that is based on
57:13
personal experience. But from what you are seeing in
57:17
the circles within which you, well, not necessarily move, but
57:22
the people you're in touch with, do, do you see a generation of
57:26
people coming forward who might be taking the mantle and and
57:32
making these sorts of changes, proclamations and everything
57:36
else? Definitely.
57:39
And until a couple of years ago I would have said not with an
57:42
axe to grind, but as a as a as a regretful truth that very few of
57:46
them were ethnically English. This was something I was, I
57:49
would bewailed, but also accept with my whole coterie of friends
57:54
that there may be impeccable Anglican congregations chanting
57:59
Coverdale Psalms and all the other things you would expect in
58:01
the various shades of churchmanship Evangelical High
58:04
Church in the future. But they wouldn't be white
58:07
people. They would be yellow, brown and
58:08
black skinned people. And I'm not making a moral point
58:13
there, but it's just a forecast that we were making because
58:15
there was very little gumption to be seen in, shall we say,
58:19
traditional English evangelicalism or Anglicanism in
58:23
any of its settings. That is changing, and as other
58:27
commentators have started to notice in the past year, it's
58:29
changing particularly in the biggest urban areas in England.
58:34
And it's not just the case now that, to use the old cliches,
58:38
but true ones, you've got vibrant Afro Caribbean or West
58:41
African or ethnic Chinese or ethnic Korean congregations
58:46
mushrooming. Although they certainly do, and
58:48
many of them have appropriated serious historical Anglicanism
58:52
and it's theology with far more gusto than the the native
58:55
English have. But by this point we do see a
58:58
lot of, to use the new jargon, Gen Z or even Gen Alpha young
59:03
men in particular, aiming to be scholarly, erudite, self
59:08
effacing, and in the true older sense of the word leaders.
59:11
I mean to close the circle I began with, I would say that
59:14
this kind of man would be described in other languages
59:16
like Russian, using the native words for leaders and not the
59:19
one borrowed from English leader.
59:21
Which kind of makes it transparent that another
59:24
concept, one being pushed from English speaking countries is,
59:27
is being meant, you know, the the old idea of laying down your
59:30
life and giving your best for the flock.
59:32
Yes, I do think that quite a few of the young men that we we see
59:37
are determined to, in the old sense, take holy orders or be
59:42
this would be another discussion.
59:43
But to become lay readers, that is men who are licenced by the
59:47
Bishop and that's the there's the bottleneck.
59:49
They're unwilling to do it at Bishop level, but who are
59:52
recognised and licenced to do everything that an ordained
59:55
clergyman can do except administer the sacraments,
59:58
baptism and the Lord's Supper or Eucharist as it would be called,
1:00:01
or communion in Anglican circles.
1:00:03
These lay readers for which you should see E7 and E8 in the
1:00:08
Church of England Canon Law, easily found online.
1:00:11
They are the obvious solution to this.
1:00:13
But with them, and even with ordaining regular clergy, some
1:00:19
of the bishops in the Church of England have since the 90s
1:00:21
already been seeing which way the wind is blowing and saying I
1:00:24
will not ordain or I will not licence as a lay reader, any of
1:00:27
these hot heads who actually believe the Bible.
1:00:30
So yes, there are bottlenecks. It may require, as previously
1:00:33
discussed, some of the parishes to leave the Church of England,
1:00:37
but in Anglicanism and wider afield in English Christianity,
1:00:41
I do not think all is lost. And on that note, Alex, I think
1:00:45
we have to capture that particular moment because that's
1:00:47
that is a really positive place to come back to.
1:00:49
And it does exactly like you say, it links right back to the
1:00:53
beginning. We've, we've covered, I would
1:00:56
say a lot of ground, but but at the same time scratch the
1:00:58
surface and there will be a lot more to talk about.
1:01:01
But I think that's a great place to start and to and to draw this
1:01:06
particular discussion to a close and have a think about what we
1:01:09
might go on to explore in future.
1:01:12
So Alex, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
1:01:15
I've enjoyed that enormously as I hope you have.
1:01:18
And I would just say to anyone listening or watching, there
1:01:22
will be links in the show notes to all the various UK column
1:01:26
content that we've referred to and indeed other resources.
1:01:30
If you've ended up listening to or watching this somewhere other
1:01:34
than the UK column website, and you want to know more about what
1:01:36
we do and indeed how you might support us as a member, then
1:01:40
please go to ukcolumn.org. But I think we'll leave it
1:01:44
there. And I'll just close that by
1:01:45
saying thank you very much indeed, Alex.
1:01:47
And I look forward to the next one.
1:01:49
Thank you very much indeed, Charles.