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You Don't Have to Be Fearless with Heather Anderson · Mind Over Mountain

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, This is Cheryl Strade. Welcome to mind Over Mountain,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: where I have conversations with women about the epic and
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: interesting things they do and their lives and their sport.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Today I talked to the amazing Heather Anderson, who is
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: a legendary long distance hiker. She's the first and only
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: woman to have done a calendar year triple crown, which
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: means she hiked all three of the long national scenic
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: trails in the course of one calendar year. It's the
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Pacific Crest Trail, the Appalachian Trail, and the Continental Divide Trail.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: In my conversation with Heather, I ask her all about
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  Speaker 1: the challenges and the triumphs, the victories and failures she
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: had to overcome and face in the course of these
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: three long hikes. Let's get into our conversation. Heather Anderson,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Welcome to mind Over Mountain. I am so thrilled to
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: talk to you.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm really
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: excited to talk to you as well.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So I want to go back to the beginning because
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: this is what always interests me is where you came
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: from and how you got to where you are.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: When did you begin hiking.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: What were those first difficult hikes that you took way
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: back when tell us about that.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Well, I didn't grow up hiking. I think that that
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: surprises a lot of people. I grew up in the
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  Speaker 2: Midwest and in Michigan, and there was a lot of
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: outdoors activity, you know, like we spent time outdoors. I
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: played outdoors as a child, but we didn't hike, you know,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: that wasn't our recreation. So really I didn't find hiking
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: until I was in college and I had a summer
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: job working at the South Room of the Grand Canyon,
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  Speaker 2: and that was really where I went on my first
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  Speaker 2: you know hike where I was like, Okay, I am hiking.
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  Speaker 2: And I just went with a group down to have
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Asu Bay Gardens and more or less everybody like turned
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: around and early, and I made it all the way
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  Speaker 2: down there and back along with one person, and it
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: was horrible and I thought I was going to die.
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  Speaker 2: It was so hot and traumatic. And then I got
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: to the top and drank some water and was like, oh,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: I can't wait to do that again. And it sort
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: of just like went from there. So all of my
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  Speaker 2: first hiking experiences were actually at the Grand Canyon.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: And then which I just want to pause for those
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: who haven't like the Grand Candy, I laughed. You wrote
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: about this in your memoir Thirst, which I love, and
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  Speaker 1: I had to laugh about that because I too had
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: some of my earliest hikes in the Grand Canyon, and.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: That is no joke that now. I mean there and
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: there's no way out.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: It's only it's only down, down, down, or up up up,
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  Speaker 1: and it is brutal and relentless. Yeah, so you really
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: walked through a crucible from the very beginning.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that a lot of people
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: who haven't hiked there. Most people are used to more
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: like mountain hiking, where you do the hard part first,
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: you go up first, Yeah, and then you're gravity assisted
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: when you're tired, and the Grand Canyon is the exact opposite.
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  Speaker 2: You can get yourself into trouble very easily because you're
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: gravity assisted when you're fresh and you're going down, and
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  Speaker 2: then you know you have to climb back up, and
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: it's hotter when you're trying to come back up. So yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it's definitely a very different sort of place.
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  Speaker 1: What was it about that kind of pain and endurance
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: that intrigued you or made you want to keep going.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it was more about the rewards
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: that made the pain worthwhile. Like I wasn't like I
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, I can't wait to suffer again. It
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: was just the sheer beauty of being in the canyon.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: And I mean me, it's one of the most beautiful
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  Speaker 2: places on Earth. So you know this sheer beauty of it,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, there's just something that just felt very
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: right to me about hiking. I was not somebody who
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: played sports, like I was not athletic at all. Uh,
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  Speaker 2: And that was the first time I was doing a
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: you know, moving my body, like doing something physical that
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed. And so even though it was hard and difficult,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: and you know, there were a lot of extenuating circumstances
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  Speaker 2: that made it so I was able to see beyond
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  Speaker 2: the difficulties to be like, oh, this feels right for me.
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  Speaker 2: This is beautiful, this is rewarding. Like if it hurts,
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  Speaker 2: that's fine because it's worth it to have this experience.
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  Speaker 1: And so you kept going and eventually your first long
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  Speaker 1: distance hike was on the aight is that right? On
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: that Coblation trail in what year? And so what happened
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: between those first hikes in college and the Grand Canyon
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  Speaker 1: and that first through hike on the Appalachian Trail.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean basically that summer while I was at
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  Speaker 2: the Grand Canyon, I decided that I was going to
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: hike the Applation Trail after I graduated from college. And
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: so it was two years later that I graduated college,
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  Speaker 2: and the day after I got my diploma, I was
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  Speaker 2: at Springer Mountain in Georgia and heading north. So basically,
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: just in the ad interim two years, I kind of
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: read I mean, this was kind of the Internet existed,
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  Speaker 2: but it wasn't like today where you can find anything
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  Speaker 2: you want. So mostly I was reading books about hiking
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  Speaker 2: and about the Appalation Trail, and I was, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I started working out to try to get myself into
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  Speaker 2: shape to be ready to hike, and you know, started
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: you know, buying my gear and you know basically just
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: preparing for you know, saving up money and preparing to
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  Speaker 2: do the hike. It became my goal to do after
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  Speaker 2: I graduated college, and then that's what I did.
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  Speaker 3: And how did you physically prepare for that first hike?
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  Speaker 1: Uh?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I took up jogging. I mean when I started out,
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  Speaker 2: like you know, before that summer at the Grand Canyon,
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  Speaker 2: when I found hiking, like I was a non exerciser,
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  Speaker 2: Like I was just like a bookworm. I was very
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: like sit on the couch and read a book and
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: chubby and you know, not, you know, not athletic at all.
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  Speaker 2: So I mean I came back from that summer at
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: the Grand Canyon and started running at the track at
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  Speaker 2: my college, and you know, I couldn't even make it
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  Speaker 2: around the track once without walking. And so just like
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  Speaker 2: built myself up over those those two years to be
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  Speaker 2: able to run. I think my longest run before I
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: started the eight was eight miles. And you know, I
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: would go to the weight room and it would just
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  Speaker 2: be me and my college like football team in there,
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  Speaker 2: Like I was the only girl in there working out,
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  Speaker 2: and I didn't know what I was doing, but you know,
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  Speaker 2: I just felt like anything I could do to improve
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  Speaker 2: my physical health was gonna serve me in good stead
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  Speaker 2: when I got on the trail, which was true. So
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  Speaker 2: basically I was just trying to just be I don't know,
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  Speaker 2: I didn't know what I was doing, but I was
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  Speaker 2: just trying to get as in shape as I thought
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  Speaker 2: I could.
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  Speaker 3: Right, And then you get out on the at.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I just know this from my own personal experience,
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  Speaker 1: and it's like, Okay, this is hard, day after day
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: after day hiking you know, as many miles as you
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: possibly can. You happen to be able to hike a
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: lot more miles than mean today, but we'll get to
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: that in a minute.
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  Speaker 3: I'm curious that feeling that you had, not.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Just physically obviously when you started to hike the at.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: You know, you ramp up in terms of physical shape,
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  Speaker 1: but what was going on inside of you. I'm really
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: kind of moved, honestly by this image of you going
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: to that track and not even being able to run
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: one lap without stopping to walk, and then there you are,
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  Speaker 1: and you do have to have, you know, that feeling
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  Speaker 1: inside of yourself when you're hiking a long trail that
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: you can do it, because a lot of the times,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: right it feels like I can't do this, this is
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: too hard. So I'm curious about your psychology and that
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  Speaker 1: sense of yourself of being capable. How did you develop
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  Speaker 1: that over time?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that I've always just been very
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  Speaker 2: goal oriented and stubborn, and so like when I make
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  Speaker 2: up my mind, I'm doing something like I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: do it, and you know, going into that first hike
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  Speaker 2: on the at, I definitely didn't have anyone in my life. Well,
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  Speaker 2: I had a couple of people, like my best friend
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  Speaker 2: in college, but like most of the people in my
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  Speaker 2: life were sort of just like, well, you know how
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: the it's okay if you quit, you know, because most
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: people don't finish it through hike, which is true. But
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  Speaker 2: I definitely felt like there were a lot of people
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  Speaker 2: who they were just like, oh, this is so far
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  Speaker 2: outside of your wheelhouse, there is no way you're going
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  Speaker 2: to be successful, and they were kind of just trying
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  Speaker 2: to prepare me for that. And I mean then there
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: were people like my parents who were outright trying to
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  Speaker 2: convince me not to go.
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  Speaker 3: Why were I parents trying to convince you not to go?
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  Speaker 2: Uh? Well, I think mostly they just thought it was
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  Speaker 2: dangerous and they were worried about me to be out
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  Speaker 2: in the woods by myself. But I think that the
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: more I felt like people didn't believe in me, that
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  Speaker 2: cemented my stubbornness of well, I will do this no
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: matter what. And I mean definitely, like you said, you
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: get that out there on the trail, and you realize like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: this is a whole other ball of wax than like
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  Speaker 2: doing a day like this is now I live out here,
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  Speaker 2: and this.
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  Speaker 3: Is very hard.
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  Speaker 2: And the first week or so on the trail was
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  Speaker 2: it was just incredibly difficult, and I didn't couldn't conceptualize
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  Speaker 2: how I was going to make it to me and
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  Speaker 2: how I was going to do this for two thousand miles.
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  Speaker 2: And then there was just something you know, obviously, you
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  Speaker 2: know your body does make that adaptation, but there was
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: also something mentally that transitioned where it just became less
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  Speaker 2: of a like forcing myself mentally like I'm not going
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  Speaker 2: to give up. I'm not going to like give up too.
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  Speaker 2: I love this, I'm thriving. This is what I want
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  Speaker 2: to do. This is my life. And from there on
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: it became much easier year, even if it was hard,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: because I knew I had that same certitude that I
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: had when I was in the Grand Canyon on that
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: first hike, where I'm like, Okay, this is really hard,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: but this is the right thing for me. This is
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: a sense of wholeness that I don't have any anywhere
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: else doing anything else, and this is what I want
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  Speaker 2: to be doing. So there was definitely like a mental
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: transition in that first week or so on the trail
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: from kind of like gritting your teeth and getting through
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  Speaker 2: the difficulty to you know, this is what I want
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  Speaker 2: to be doing.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I think it's a really fascinating thing about hiking, and
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: especially long distance hiking, is that.
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  Speaker 3: You know, the both the physical.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Challenges and the grit and endurance and determination it requires
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: is matched very equally by the psychological grit and determination.
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  Speaker 1: You know that you always have to be having that
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: conversation with yourself. And I think that's probably true and
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: all kinds of athletic endeavors and physical endeavors, but there's
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: something about hiking that appeals to me in that way
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: where you know almost you know, almost anyone can enter
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: into it. Like I probably, no matter how hard I tried,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: I probably could not become a champion basketball player or
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: a soccer player, right right, right, But but you know,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, with hiking, it was like
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: I could begin with the one step at a time.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: M h.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm curious about you know, so you did that,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: you did that first lung distance hike, and like a
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: lot of people that first through hiker. Like a lot
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: of people who experienced that, you fell in love with it,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: right You've You've used this phrase a couple of times.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: I live out here, it's my way of life.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: And and in your books and specifically just reading your
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: new book Farther you a few times talk about the
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: these long trails, these national scenic trails that we have
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: here as home, and you have made a life of it.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: So how did you get from there? So you took
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: us from the Grand Canyon to the through hike on
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: the AT. How did you get from that first through
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: hike experience to feeling like this was going to be
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: so central to your life? It wasn't just a one
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: time adventure.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I don't think it was a direct path, But on
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: that first AT hike, I definitely At that time, I
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: didn't know about the Pacific Crust Trail or had gone
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: out of Bay Trail. I didn't know other long distance
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: trails existed. I had only ever heard of the AT,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: And you know, I remember thinking to myself that I
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: didn't care what else I did in life, and if
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I just had to you know, you know, I wanted
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: to live on the AT. I was like, I will
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: just walk back and forth between the innersia for the
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: rest of my life, I will And I definitely don't
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: know that this is as much of a thing now,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: but definitely in the early two thousands, like the Hike
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: was in two thousand and three, there were definitely people
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: who would, you know, kind of walk on the trail
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: and then they would get to wherever they were gonna
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: spend the winter, and they just get a job for
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: the winter, and then they get back on the trail.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: And I was like, I am perfectly willing to that
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: be my life, Like I just want to walk forever.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: I love doing this. And then along the way I
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: found out about the other trails, and so my my
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: horizons brought into being, like, Okay, well I want to
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: do the PCT and I want to do the CDT,
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: and and so I went and I did those trails,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: and sort of just over the course of that, I
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: just thought, okay, well, you know, and then at some
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: point you have to be a responsible adult and have
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: a job and you know, kind of do these things.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: And I did that for a while, and then you know,
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: when you started out you were talking about my book,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: about my twenty thirteen FKT, and so That was kind
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: of when I, you know, ten years after I first
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: started hiking, that was sort of when I made a
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: return to the trails where I was like, you know,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: the trail do need to be central to my life
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: because they are you know, fulfilling to me and kind
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: of going back to what I felt, you know, in
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: my early twenties on the at and like this needs
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: to be central to my life. And so I think
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: it took me like not making the trails central to
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: my life to realize that, no, it is important. They're
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: the main part of my life.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: But in twenty thirteen, you didn't just return to through hiking.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: You set put on the PCT with a very clear intention,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: and that was to break Scott Williamson's record for the
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: fastest known.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: Time for a hike on the PCT.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Why did you decide to do that? Why go fast?
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: And why did you opt for that goal?
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: I think at that time in my life, you know,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: there was you know, I had basically just decided to
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: set aside everything that I had spent that interim time
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: since finishing the CDT in tw thousand and six to
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. You know, I had built a life off
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: trail I had gotten married, I had a job, I
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: was living in the Northwest, Like, I had a life
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: that didn't I mean, I was I was an ultra runner,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: so I was spending a lot of time running on
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: trails on the weekends and stuff. But you know, it
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: wasn't Yeah, it was a different life than I realized
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: that I wanted, and that I wanted to go back
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: to the trails, and so I kind of just like
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: set that whole entire life aside. I walked away from that.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: And so going back to the trail and setting at FKT.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: It was sort of like.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: How when I started out, you know, I was like,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I can walk from Georgia to Maine,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: but I'm going to try. And it was sort of
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: like a thing of like, well, I already know I
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: can walk across the country. I've done it three times,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: I'm a triple crowner, But how can I do How
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: can I return to the trail doing this thing that
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: I love and yet make it different enough that there
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: is some challenge there that keeps me engaged. And so yeah,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: like setting FKT was sort of kind of that next
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: level of challenge where I was like, oh, at this point,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: now I've become an ultrarunner. You know, I do long
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: distance running, and you know I still hike and stuff,
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: and like, so how can I kind of take that
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: and move to the next level of challenge and goal,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: you know, and see what happens there? Like, you know,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: I already know I could walk to Canada, Like, let's
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: see if I can do it, you know, faster, you know,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: or what would it be like to do this? So
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: kind of just building off of the foundation I already
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: had athletically, I guess, to see what was possible.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Right, And for listeners who don't know, to say you're
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: a triple cronner means that you've hiked the Pacific Crestrail, City,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Continental Divide Trail, and the AT and you had done
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: that by then.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: I'm curious.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: I loved reading about this this hike in your book
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Thirst And the thing that I kept just marveling that
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: is when you did decide to hike the PCT fast
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen and get that record.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: You did it in sixty days and.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: A certain number of hours, right, less than you know,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: less than sixty one days. How many miles did you
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: have to hike per day? To achieve that on average,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: you know, what does that average out to?
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: I think it averaged out to like forty five miles
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: a day, right, anything like that. And I definitely, you know,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: when I started out, I wasn't going that many miles
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: a day, and then toward the end I was doing more.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: So it wasn't like a steady pace, but I you know,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I think I just set out with that, like, with
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: that intention of trying to do as close to forty
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: five miles a day as I could each day, and
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: you know, knowing that I, you know, could go faster
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: in certain parts than others. And yeah, there was definitely
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of planning, but again it was it was
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: sort of, you know, this return to being a beginner
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: because I had never done anything like that before, and
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: so kind of just like when I was on the
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: at the first time and I was like, oh, this
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: is totally different than I expected it was going to be,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: and I'm going to have to make all kinds of
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: adaptations and adjustments and basically relearn what I'm doing. I mean,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: it was very much the same thing, like I knew
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: how to throw hike, but I didn't know how to
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: do forty five miles a day on average. You know,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I didn't know how to feel my body for that
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: long of a long and intensive an effort. You know,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I didn't know how to be efficient in town at
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: that level. Like it was, it was a learning experience
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: to redo something that was familiar to me in an
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: unfamiliar way. So yeah, there was a lot of planning
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: and logistics and a lot of that had to be
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: completely thrown out the window when I was out there
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: and adapted.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: To time and time again, as you're hiking, you wrote
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: about just having to essentially go beyond your your capacity
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: to go, and you always did it.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: You would always keep going.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Could you talk about that, Like, what does it feel
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: like when you're inside of that and you push.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: Through it again and again.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, one of the things that I
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: find useful if I'm talking to somebody who has experienced
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: with long distance hiking is it's like, you know, you're
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: taking something that people maybe do in like five or
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: six months, and you're putting it into two months. So
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: you're just intensifying the entire experience. So you know, the
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: highs are higher, the lows are lower, the pain is more,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: everything is just compressed and you know, I think that
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: for me, it was again just this decision of like
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: I'm just gonna I'm going to do this thing, and
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I'm going to keep going. You know. Once again, like
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: going into this, there were only maybe one or two
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: people in my life that believed I could do it,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: and you know, that sort of cemented my stubbornness to like, Okay,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do this or I'm going to you know,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: give it my all and maybe I won't succeed, but
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: I'm going to you know, I'm not just going to
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: give up easily. And so every day was an opportunity
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: to recommit to what I was there to do. And
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: you know, I think that I learned how to accept
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: the things that I couldn't control, Like Okay, well, you
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: know I don't have any water, and you know, this
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: water source is dry, and this is going to be
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: very miserable because it's very hot and I have no water.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: But there's nothing I can do about that except for
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: you know, I try to conserve water as best I can,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: you know, and like you know, when you are hurting,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: you know, you're like, okay, I acknowledge that I'm hurting,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: but there's nothing I can really do to change that
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: right now. This is just part of what I'm doing
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: right now, and you know, when things go wrong, just
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: being like okay, well that's just how it is. And
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't I can't waste energy, mental or
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: physical on things I can't control. I can only just
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: try to accept and adapt and keep going forward, and
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: you know, not think about the things that are behind,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: and not think about the end goal either. You're just
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: thinking about the interim, like Okay, I'm getting to the
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: next water source, I'm getting to the next town, I'm
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: getting to where I set up camp, you know, and
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: just you know, focusing on that immediate you know, goal
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: and always keeping in mind the overall goal, but not
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: really dwelling on that because it's too overwhelming, and you know,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: it just very much becomes like stringing that together and
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: eventually you've you've got this momentum behind you. So on
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: an f KT, it becomes even more important to kind
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: of focus on the micro goals and how those will
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: help you achieve the overall goal.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I love listening to you talk about that kind
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: of acceptance because it's it's of course, I know you
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: probably hear it in your own words as well as
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: you're you're talking deeply about hiking, but you're also really
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: just talking about life because all of those things that
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: are all of those wisdoms in message is that we
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: receive when we set out to do something like a
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: long hike, they do translate it over into like, pretty
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: much what you just said is through in all of
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: our lives and our daily lives, you know, in our
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: work and our love lives and our relationships. And you know,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: we all want to think we have more control over
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: than we do.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Right, my hiking has given me more than many years
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: of therapy, would you know? Hiking has this way of
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: teaching you all kinds of lessons that are applicable to
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: every aspect of your life. It's not just about how
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: to hike, it's about how to live, you know, because
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: there is just so much about it that you can't control,
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: you know, and there are hardships you have to put
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: up with, and you run the entire gamut of emotions
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: and experiences, and you know, it definitely can become your teacher.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: I think that one of the things too that we
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: have to accept is that the the you know, I
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: mentioned the pain that's part of your experience, but also
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: grappling with fear and the things that scare us, and
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: and you know, really all of your books you write
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: about this. There's no way to talk about walking through
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: the wilderness for days on end without sometimes really coming
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: up against, you know, scary things like actually scary things,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: your encounters with mountain lions, your your you know, your
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about on your calendar year Triple Crown, when
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: you hiked on the CDT through Grizzly country, you know,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: a few days after somebody had been killed by a
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: grizzly bear, and I'm curious if you could talk about that.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: How have you managed fear as you walk through the wilderness.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would definitely say I'm a big
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: scaredy cat, or at least was a big scaredy gut.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: I think that maybe that's part of why I make
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: sure that I talk about the things that scare me
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: in the context of the book, because I think it's
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: very easy when you look at somebody who's done, you know,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: big things, to just be like, oh, well, they don't
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: have fear, they don't have you know, doubt, or they
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: don't have you know whatever, And it's like, well, no,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: I think that what I have a lot of those things,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: but what I've learned to do is to evaluate them.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: And so I think that throughout my hiking life, you know,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: there's been a constant conversation with fear, from the fear
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: of even starting, the fear of like walk certainly in
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, the fear of walking away from like a
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: quote unquote normal life to go try to set a record.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: You know this, there's these fears of even starting, and
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: then in addition to that, the fears of being out there.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: You know, I've I've had hypothermia, I've had close calls
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: with lightning. I've encountered, like you said, mountain lions and
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: grizzly bears and scary people in the woods, and you know,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: high water crossings and you know avalanches, and you know,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I've kind of experienced all of these things that can
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: you know, at this point in my life, after all
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: of the hiking I've done, you know, I've experienced all
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: of these things, and I still get frightened. But I've
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: also amassed an immense level of skill and self confidence
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: that has come through experience, and you know, I think
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: there are you know, I've gotten good at establishing a
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: conversation with myself about fear and being like, Okay, you're
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: afraid right now, and and that's you know, your body
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: and your brain communicating with you that this is it's right,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: it's okay to be afraid, and why are you afraid?
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And then also evaluating like, well, is this a fear
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: where I need to reevaluate what I'm doing, a fear
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: where I need to turn around, you know, or is
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: this a fear where it's like my myself like just
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: alerting me that I need to be cautious right now
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: and still move forward but exercise caution. So yeah, there's
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: it's just definitely been a long growth journey regarding peer.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's amplified for us as women
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: because of course, you know that messaging we've received from
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: the culture and our families. I mean, like your parents
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: like don't go you know is all about I mean
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: literally you can probably remember this too, you're younger than me,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: but you know, I remember just one of the rules
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: being like women shouldn't walk alone period.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: Have you heard that as a kid.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I don't think I really heard it as a kid,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: but definitely, like as a young adult, you know that.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: And you know, I think I became more aware of
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: that messaging when I started doing things alone because it
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: wasn't something I had really encountered. And then people were like, well,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: aren't you afraid to do this alone? And like it's like, well, no,
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: it never really crossed my mind, you know, like when
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: my parents were.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: So like, now I am guys. Yeah, yeah, and.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Like when my parents were like very like worried about me,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: and I was just like, oh, well, why are you
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: worried about like it just like because it wasn't something
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: they had like expressed, probably because I've never done anything
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: like that before, you know, and so it wasn't uh
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: you know, when it became I was like, oh, wait,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: am I supposed to be afraid of this? And then
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: like sort of like yeah, I definitely feel like a
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: lot of times they get that question from women about
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: the danger of being on the trail, and I was like, wow,
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: I definitely feel less safe walking around the streets of
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Seattle alone than I do walking out on a trail alone.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: You know, So I mean keep it in contact, like
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: you know, when you're out.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Well, And that's what I always say too, because I'm
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: always like, listen, you know, I lean into the statistical facts, right,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Like we are more at risk living, you know, in
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: the cities we live in and driving around in our
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: cars for a few months than we are walking. You
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: then we're at risk walking through the wilderness, you know
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: it really, I mean I think the big things and
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: of course not minds are terrifying, as Christly parents are fit.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: But you know, it's not as if every day we're
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: reading of people, you know, being killed this way, right,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: It happens once in a while, and you know, I
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: think that that also sometimes it's the unexpected animals, you
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: know you write about like a scorpion, you know in
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: your tent, and that being like the most terrifying thing.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: And or like the cows.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: You and I both you know cowows about ones and
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: let me tell you, the cows are afraid or it's scary.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, yes, And I love that you had.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: This weapon with you because you know, then when you
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: encountered the cows, you pulled out this crinkly plastic bag
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: and like shook it in the wind, so it's spared
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: the cows off.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: It's my secret weapon, it's your secret weapon. Okay, But
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: you know the other.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Thing about this, the flip side of this, Like I
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: think the classic thing is, Okay, we're afraid of the
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: you know, lions and tigers and bears, right, you know,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: kind of like Wizard of Oz. You know, they go
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: venturing in and that's what they're afraid of. But what
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: But I think it's so powerful and beautiful that you
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: write about and express beautifully, and that everyone I know
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: throughout all time who who's ventured into the wild reflects
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: on this and this sense that being in the wild
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: allows us actually to remember that we are animals too.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: That it's not like, you know, they're out there, these
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: wild things that are going to come and do something
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: bad to us that, but we are part of the
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: living family of this world. And you wrote and farther
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: about how to find your full humanity, you needed to
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: embrace your instinctual animal self. And I wonder if you
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: can tell us more about that. I know what you mean,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: and I'm so moved by that, But talk to us
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: about that.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think you know, upon reflection, I
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: don't think this is something I realized immediately. But part
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: of the reason why when I did my first hikes
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: of Piper and Canyon and first through hike. Why it
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: felt so good and so right was because it was
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: giving me this opportunity to connect with the natural self.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: You know, there's nothing nothing more human than walking long
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: distances through the mountains. I mean, we come from a
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: millennia of our species, like migrating, following the animals, following
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: the herds, walking across continents like that is just like
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: what we do. And to your point of like how
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: you know there's this low bar of entry anybody can
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: go hiking, you know, because like that's what we do.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: That's like as a species, like we walk, we're meant
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: to walk long distances. And so I think that that
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: that sense of connection was initially what hooked me in this.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: And I also think that, you know, as time goes on,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: and you know, I am you know, I want to
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: start out, I'm terrified of running into a bear. I'm
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: horrified by the idea that I'm going to run into
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: a bear out here. And then I run into a
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: bear and the bear runs away from me, and you know,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: you start having these experiences and you start to to
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: have this sense of how, you know, you stop othering
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: the animals because you realize they just see you as
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: another animal and they treat you as such like oh,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: you're another big predator like me, and like I'm going
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: to give you space, and you're going to give me space.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: And then you start to really see yourself in like
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: you said, the web, you know, you see how connected
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: you are. And I think that that is like a
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: very beautiful thing that I've been able to experience by
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: spending so much time hiking and so much time outdoors,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: is that I don't see myself as like this separate
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: entity like our our everyday human modern lives are very
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: disconnected from nature. It's all screens and lights and sounds,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: and you know, we sit in cars, we fly in planes,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: and all of that disconnects us, you know, from what
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: we really are where, you know, and how we should
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: exist in this natural world. And so hiking, to me,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: is a very wonderful way to just reconnect to that,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: like to just move it like a human pace and
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: remind yourself that I am capable of being in this hard,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: uncomfortable place in a relationship or in loss, you know,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: in grief and in a job. You know, you're like, okay,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: I have this capacity to be in a difficult place
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: and to overcome difficult things because I've done it, I've
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: experienced it as my animal, natural self, and I can
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: take it into this unnatural world and environment. It's still
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: part of me.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: You're speaking my language, honey, that's right, That's exactly what
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: it is.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: And I think it's the word primal is coming to
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: mind for me. You know, when when I think we
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: push ourselves physically, we are reminded like that of the essential.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: You know, what do I need? I need food?
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I need water, I need to be able to stay
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: cool enough or warm enough or you know, like and
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: and and you know, the merciless universe of cold and
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: heat and doesn't matter like what you want. You have
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: to find a way to survive in it. Like once
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: you do that, I mean, if you spend a little
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: time engaging with that, it is a kind of confidence
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: and strength that's yours forever.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: It is always remarkable, you know, when you observe, you know,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: people starting out on their first long distance hike, how
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: quickly all of those other things fall away and you
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: pretty much are only focused on food, water, shelter. You know,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: like you really connect with like the actual important things
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: and you stop caring about pretty much everything else really quickly.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: There's still all kinds of stuff going on, you know.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I people often ask me like, you know, well, what
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: if can you go on a long hike without like wanting.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: To heal something. I'm like, yes, but here's the thing.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: You can go out there thinking you don't have anything
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: to heal, and I promise you it'll pop up and
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: something will be healed.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know, so I want a jump.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Speaking of healing, I do want to talk about your
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: your calendar calendar year Triple Crown High. You were the
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: first woman to do that in a calendar year. Also
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: when you did that, you were the first woman to
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: do the Triple Crown three times, right, like.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: So you'd hiked each of those trails three times.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I'm just laughing because like you astound me, you astound
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: me other I just I just think you're the coolest.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: I want to hang out with you.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: But I love that that you are Like, Okay, that
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: wasn't enough. Now I'm going to go do this this
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: you know calendar, you're triple Crown, and I know that
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: a lot of people probably say, like, you know why
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: and what I've really have come to by listening to
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: you and reading your books is like.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: Why doesn't even matter? Like why is that?
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: It's because it fills you on a deep level and
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: that you know, it's nice to set those goals. It's
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: nice to like set those records and get your name
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: in the books at least for a while until somebody
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: else comes along and beats it. But you know, what
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: is the driver? I mean, what would you say at
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: this point, like, you know, what does motivate you? Or
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: what do you do with that question of why when
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: people ask you why would you do these things?
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I think throughout all of the things
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: that I have done, it's always been an internal motivation
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: of this sounds interesting, I want to do this. There's
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: I'm a very curious person. I was definitely one of
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: those kids that was always like but why, but why?
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: But why?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: You know, driving my parents crazy. You know, I'm always
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: just curious. And I've always been infinitely curious about what's
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: on the next top of the next till, what's around
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: the bend? You know, what am I capable of? You know,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: could I do this? And there's just always been this
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: internal questing, you know, and so pretty much all of
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: the things I've ever done. I've just been to answer
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: that internal curiosity of like, well, how fast could I
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: walk the PCT, Like, you know, could a woman beat
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: a man at an FKT? You know, there's all these yeah,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: she did, yes, and you know, and I find those
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: answers and then you know, another question pops up and
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: I seek out those answers, and I mean it was
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: the same for the Calendar Your Trouble Crown, but that
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: was the first time where it was also important to
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: me for there to be representation because at that point,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: I can't remember, I think five or six men had
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: completed the Calendar Triple Crown at that point and no
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: women had and as far as I knew, like the
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: few women who had tried had quit very quickly. And
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: so in addition to me wanting to do this for myself,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: I also was like, you know, I want to do
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: this because I feel like it's important that a woman
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: does this, and like that there is you know, a
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: role model out there, because to me, it was never
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: none of the other things I had ever done were
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: with that in mind, because I had never set out like,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: oh I have to be a role model for women.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: I was just like I just do the things that
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: fulfill me, and I happen to be a woman. But
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: by that point in my life, I had realized hearing
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: from so many women that how much it mattered to
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: them that I was doing the things that I was doing,
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: even though that wasn't the purpose. And you know, I
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: think that it's you know, one of those situations where
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: it was to fulfill me at a personal level, but
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: I was also like, I want this to be you know,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: there for other women to look at and say, Okay,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: this is possible for me as well. Yeah.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I think that's so important and so powerful, and even
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: for women who are just really have no intentions whatsoever
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: of doing the same thing that you did. I think
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: that across the whole I can just think of so
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: many women in so many ways and professions and fields
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: and the different things they do that I think inspire me,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: that you know, contribute to my ability to feel like
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: I can keep going, I can keep putting one but
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: after you know, one step taking one step out after another, right,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: And I think.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: That's really powerful stuff.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: So thank you for doing that other so the rest
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: of us wouldn't have to Yeah, exactly, now you were
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: healing that on that calendar year Triple Crown, your father
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: had died shortly before you set.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: Out on that endeavor.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and and farther you write a lot about grieving
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: him as you hike, but also really a particular aspect
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: of your relationship with him, this feeling.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: Of like, is he proud of you? Or have you?
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: Have you achieved enough to make him proud of you?
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: And you ask yourself. I mean I think you even
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: at one point call out to your dad, you know,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: toward the end of your hike, you know, is this,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: are you proud of me?
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: Or have I done enough?
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: And I'm just curious about what your answer to that
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: is or how you've reckoned with that now that some
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: time has passed.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a very difficult aspect of my calendar,
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: your Triple Crown, and it was unexpected. I think that
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: you know, when you lose someone close to you, especially
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: a parent, because that's always a very unique dynamic, Like
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: oftentimes there are questions or thoughts that come up that
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: you'd never even considered when they were all alive. And
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: for me, when my dad passed away, there was this
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: realization that I didn't know if he was proud of me.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Because and you know, lots of people were posting condolences
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: to me on my you know, public Facebook, and They're
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: all like, oh, I'm sure he was so proud of
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: you and stuff like that, and I'm like, oh, I
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: don't know if he was, you know, because he never
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: said that, you know, and I've you know, definitely began
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: to reflect on on that throughout the course of you know,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: the lead up to my hike, but also on the
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: hike itself of like, well, maybe everything I've been doing
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: was just an attempt to make him proud of me.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: And maybe I don't even like hiking, Maybe I don't
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: even like doing f KT's or you know, why am
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: I trying to set this, you know, do this big thing,
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: and like, you know, does it even matter to me?
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Because all of a sudden I began questioning myself as well,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: like where is the source of my drive to do this?
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: And you know, I think that throughout farther and throughout
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: that hike, I kind of explore like that question, and
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: you know, ultimately I realized that obviously that probably played
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: some sort of a role. But in the end, ultimately,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: you know, I had been making all the decisions and
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: doing all of these things because they did fulfill me
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: and they mattered to me. And at a certain point,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: I would never, you know, come to terms with the
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: fact that I may never know the answer to like
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: what my dad thought about what I was doing, but
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: that I could know my answer, and that I was
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: proud of myself, and I was proud of the things
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: that I was doing, and they were valuable and important
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: to me, and that's enough. I don't need to worry
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: about how anybody else thinks about them or feels about them.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: And to live a life that is authentic to myself
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: and fulfilling to myself is all that matters. I don't
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: need to do it for anybody else.
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: And as somebody who is a mother, I can say
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I think it's whether parents express that or not. I
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: think that's the thing that most parents want for their
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: kids in the end, is to live life authentically.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So, speaking of.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Living authentically, my dear, I want to invite you to
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: do a little deer sugar with me.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: Are you Are you up for that?
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Sure?
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to read you a letter and I
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: want you to help me give this woman some advice.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Okay, deer Sugar.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Last spring, I took a sabbatical from my job and
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: essentially left my regular life for six months. I traveled
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: to Europe and spent most of the time hiking in
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: the UK, France, Spain, and Portugal, sometimes with friends, but
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: off and alone. I'd been saving for years to have
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: this adventure. Yeah, Cheryl, I was inspired by your book Wild.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: My trip was even better than I imagined it would be.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Even though the hiking was harder than expected. I wasn't
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: traveling in luxury, and sometimes I was downright uncomfortable, but
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: I had the time of my life. I walked through
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: the most gorgeous natural places and met awesome people everywhere
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: I went. I'm a thirty one year old woman, and
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: I can honestly say the way I felt during those
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: six months of hiking, traveling, exploring, and adventuring felt like
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: the first time in my life that I was truly
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: profoundly happy and living the way I want to live.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: When my trip ended, I returned to the US, went
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: back to my job as a community college instructor, and
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: stepped back into my life. The problem is, I don't
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm walking on the right path anymore. I
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: love my students and co workers. I love the city
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: where I live, and my friends and family. But I
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: deeply missed the feeling of freedom I had during my travels.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: What I felt like I was living in a way
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: that was most fully me. The reasonable part of me
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: knows I cannot quit my job and go off traveling
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: and exploring full time.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: I'm not even writing to ask you if I should
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: do that.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: I know it's not in the cards right now, but
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the future and trying to imagine how
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: I could build more fulfilling life, one that includes adventure
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: on a regular basis. How do people make bold steps
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: towards changes that make them happier, even if there's some
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: risk or uncertainty involved. How does one go from living
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: a conventional life to living an unconventional one.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: Do you have any ideas for me? Thank you? Signed?
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: Explore Okay.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: If this is not a perfect letter for us to answer, right,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know what is?
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: What do you think? I mean?
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of complexity involved in a question like this,
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: and you know it's hard because there is no one
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: size fits all answer, And I think that you know,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: ultimately it takes identifying what aspects of your life are
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: not fulfilling and working from there to change those, you know,
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: because obviously any break from your life, any vacation, is
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: going to feel great, you know, and we all would
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: love to be on vacation forever. But you know, I
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: think anytime something becomes your normal, you want to take
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: a break from it. So you know, it doesn't necessarily
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: always have to be you know, especially if you're overall
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: generally sounds like they're very overall, very generally happy in
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: their life, you know, so what is it that's not
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: feeling fulfilling and working from that aspect to make changes.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: You know. I do think making adventure part of your
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: life regularly is important, but it doesn't necessarily have to
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: be months in Europe every time.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love I mean, I love what you're
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: saying because essentially what the word that's stuck with me
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: in Explorer's letter is building, because I think that that's
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: what it is. I think it's what you've done Heather,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: where you know it's like, Okay, I like this thing,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: I want to do more of it, so I'll do this,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: and then you take one step and you do that,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: and then you're like, I want to do more of it,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: you know, I want to do more and more.
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: And then step by step you build it.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: It isn't about you know, Explorer knows that she can't
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: just like leave her life and travel indefinitely, but you
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: know there are there first of all. I also she
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: want to say, you know, how do we do this
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: if there's even if there's some risk of uncertainty. I'm like, listen, honey,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: there's always risk and uncertainty. Even when you think you're
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: you're secure where you are, you know, there's always you know,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: we don't know what's next. But I will say to Explore,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: my advice is you know exactly what how they're just said?
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: You're like, what aspects can you change? Maybe not everything
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: all at once, but like what exactly is making you
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: feel less fulfilled? And how can you bring you know,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: like get rid of some of that and then bring
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: in more of the adventure. And maybe saving up for
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: a six month trip was glorious for one time, but
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: maybe next time you're saving up for a week long
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: trip or a two week long trip or a month
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: or you know. The other idea I had and I
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: wonder what you think of this is I think money
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: is you know, at the heart of a lot of
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: this too, like how do we travel and also pay
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: the bills? And she doesn't say what she teaches at
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: the community college. But one cool thing about teaching at
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: this day and age is, you know, there's a lot
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: of like remote jobs, Like you could go be a
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: digital digital nomad, you know, rent an apartment and Lisbon
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: and teach online, or get a job teaching English as
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: a second language somewhere where you get to live and
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: work in a place that feels more adventurous than your
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: home here in the US.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, yeah. Or incorporate you know, see if you
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: can take one semester of your class and you teach
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: it remotely, you know, and then you can be you know,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: somewhere else while you're still teaching your job.
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: And that's right, yeah, right.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: You can go live in you know, Mexico and teach
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: from Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to do that here. I
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: am in Portland, Oregon and my attic.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We just have so many things available to us.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: It's it's really I don't know, I feel very lucky
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: to live when we do.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: Me too. Okay, so explore.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: We've given you some ideas, and I think a key
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: point is one step at a time, build the life
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: you want.
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: You said that word yourself. It is about building it.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: And the way we construct thing new things is like
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: we you know, it's like one one brick, one piece
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: of wood, one nail at a time. So good luck
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: and Heather, you know, wow, like, hey, I love I
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: love the advice you gave. Thank you for given sugar
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: a little assists there?
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: What about you?
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Like, I would love to hear what's the what's maybe
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: if you could tell us like the worst advice you've
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: ever gotten and maybe some of the best advice.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I definitely think, uh, the worst advice is usually
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: the kind you don't ask for unsolicited advice.
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, I definitely feel like there's you know, any variation
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: of you can't that I've ever received, and that's a
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: good one. The bad advice and the best advice, you
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: know is like the exact opposite. It's that you can't
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: you know where people are like you know what, like
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: maybe you won't succeed, but you know, I think it's
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: great you're gonna try, and you know, I definitely feel
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: like over the years, I've I've always had, you know,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: somebody in my corner who has been just you know,
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, this is a big scary thing, and
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm even thinking I can do this,
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: And they're like, well, you can do this, you know,
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: I know you, I know that if you want to
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: do this, you can do this. You know a lot
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: of times that's all we need is like that person
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: that believes in us and to be courageous enough to
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: like keep going forward absolutely.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean I often say in my work
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: as Sugar that you know, I'm not so much giving
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: advice as articulating what you already know to be true,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: right yeah. And sometimes it's scary to know the truth,
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: and sometimes it's painful to know the truth. If you
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: know the truth that you can continue on even when
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: it hurts, you have to then walk through the pain,
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: right yeah, but it's always worth it in the end.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Heather Anderson, Trailblazer, it has been so wonderful to talk
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: to you, and I just want to thank you for
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: taking the time to share a little bit of your
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: story with us. You know, I've just really this conversation
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: and I encourage our listeners to go out and read
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: all your books, because there's so much more to the
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: story than we were able to cover today.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: So thank you guys, Thank you for having me. It's
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: been a pleasure to chat with you.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much for listening.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to submit a letter seeking advice, please
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: send it to me at Deardearsugar at gmail dot com.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: And don't forget to rate, review and subscribe wherever you
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: get your podcasts, Happy trails, and I'll see you next week.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Mine Over Mountain with Cheryl strad is an iHeart women's
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: sports production produced by Britney Brown and Rodney Brown of
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Barbara Jean Productions. Supervising producer is Kaylin West at REALM.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: Associate producer Amaya Brathwaite. Our executive producers are Molly Barton,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Jerry Carreta, Grace Views and Jesse Katz. Our theme song
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: is composed by Gramoscope Music. Don't forget to rate, review
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, Happy
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: Trails, and I'll see you next week.