Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 220 - Dangers of the Word of Faith Movement

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Ep. 220 - Dangers of the Word of Faith Movement · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Justin, I think it'd be helpful here for those listening who maybe are not super familiar with the things.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm definitely not on the side of Bethel, but aren't we supposed to be praying for healing?
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Can you help create a distinction between praying for healing, believing that God can heal, and the word of faith, movement faith healers.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, great question, oscar.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: So let me dovetail that into what Izzy was asking about.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: The heresies and the healing and the heresies go hand in glove.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: So basically, the word of faith movement teaches that when a person becomes a Christian he becomes a God.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: They're a little God's doctrine and the heresies gotten so bad now that I tell people they've almost dropped the little from the little God's doctrine.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: They literally teach that we're gods, that God reproduces himself in us, that we are just like Christ.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: We are on an equal plane with God, the Father, and Jesus Christ.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: We are gods.
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: Unbelievable.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: It is unbelievable, it truly is.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: People don't realize how radical this movement is.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: I just have to ask Frans, whoever wakes up one random morning and says I think I want to be a mortician, a mortician.
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: Have you guys ever thought about that?
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: The difference I did in job.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: I actually went to a lady the other day, a young lady, a pretty young girl.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: She said that's what you wanted to be.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Stop, I'm not kidding.
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: Seriously, what's the coroner?
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Is the coroner cats up the?
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: It's a great job for people who want to be the life of the party.
• 2:45
  Speaker 5: It's a dead end.
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: Off the cuff.
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: Off the cuff, dad joke.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: Good job, oscar.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but I was thinking about that, the different professions you see in life, but that's one that intrigues me, that someone would actually go to school, get trained and become a mortician?
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine a mortician convention?
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: The most somber, miserable convention.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: No, there's a lot of money out there, that'd be all happy.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: That's true, it's a huge amount of money out there.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: That's true.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I have wondered those that are in that line of work if they feel kind of better to be close to death, like it.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: They get used to it, prepares them for the eternal or takes the sting out of it.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: You think so, right?
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: There's only one that takes the sting out of death.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: He said come forth, Lazarus, yeah read your Bible?
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, don't you know that?
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: Re Refund the chick?
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, can you imagine?
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder the undertaker says what's going on here?
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he says we want our money back.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: Undertaker.
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: Can you imagine Lazarus though the second time he's getting ready to die.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: Here we go again.
• 3:55
  Speaker 5: Don't bring me back please, that's two for one special yeah.
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: But, ray, you have this thing where you talk about the undertaker's nightmare.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: Oh, that's Lazarus.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, that was the whole Lazarus thing.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Undertaker's nightmare, Undertaker's nightmare.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: That was, I think, a book I had, but it was forwarded by John the Baptist.
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a forerunner to the Savior.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: His words were a foreword.
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Could you do that?
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: Be a mortician.
• 4:22
  Speaker 5: Mark, no, my sister's a mortician.
• 4:24
  Speaker 5: And her ex so you can get discounts.
• 4:28
  Speaker 5: Seriously, Do you get discounts?
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: Get it in advance.
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: Her ex-husband said to her while they were fighting you'd be a good mortician.
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: And so she became a mortician.
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: Stop.
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: That's what did it.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: That's terrible DC area oh boy, it'd be a good millionaire, okay.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: Fine.
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: All right, friends.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: It's too much time for us to dilly-dally today, because we had a full interview with our brother, justin Peters, at the G3 conference.
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: What would?
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I love Justin man.
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: He seriously is one of the dearest brothers.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: He had a lot of unkind things to say about you.
• 5:03
  Speaker 5: He's a man without guile, isn't he yeah?
• 5:05
  Speaker 5: He's what you see is what you see.
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: He's such a genuine brother who will spend the whole day with you.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: He hates green rooms.
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: He wants to be with the people.
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: He wants to fellowship.
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: He wants to equip and inspire.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: I think we just bring people in the green room and all eat together.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: That's a lot of like that One big green room.
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: One big, happy green room.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: All right, friends, before we introduce Justin here is a comment.
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: This is from Suzz599.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: What is it?
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: Question mark?
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: Truly a thought provoking video.
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: Understanding this issue in the way it is presented clarifies for me how important it is for us to talk to our friends, acquaintances and peers.
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: Of course, our friend Suzz599 is talking about the new movie what is it what?
• 5:51
  Speaker 5: is it?
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: What is what?
• 5:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: And it's the new movie on life that Mark was in the Vanguard of producing along with Tani.
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: And the.
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: Vanguard.
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: You ever heard of that word, Ray?
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the name of a car when I was a kid and the Vanguard of the Vanguard.
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: At the head of the whole thing, yeah, yeah.
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: So, friends, check it out, and we have cards too that you can throw away.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Here's my biggest pitch towards.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: What is it?
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: I got an early copy, not even completed movie, and I was sitting down.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: A part of the process is for us to all review it, and I'm sitting down at the dining room table watching it and my 13-year-old daughter at the time walks by and slows down, watches it and before you know it she's sitting next to me and she is riveted by the movie.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: So I bring that up to say if you've got teenagers, I think this movie makes itself available and interesting to even that age range.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I'd encourage you to watch it with them?
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, and if anyone you know is even slightly considering abortion, make sure to send it to them.
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: And people that are not considering abortion and people that don't consider anything Send it to Ray Ray.
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: All right friends, this podcast is brought to you by how to Make Sure God Hears your Prayers, book by Ray Comfort, with another fancy cover.
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: And don't forget the Living Waters mug, and they have it in the study Bible.
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: All right friends, our friend Justin Peters, as I said, talked to us about the dangers of the word of faith movement.
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: That is his specialty, that's his, isn't it?
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, boy, does he do an excellent job.
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: And not to mention a lot of, I'm sure, challenges dealing with that whole realm.
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: He gets attacked quite a bit.
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: Nonetheless, I think you're going to be blessed, encouraged and informed.
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: Here is our dear brother Justin Peters.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: Speak it out, justin, just claim it.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Too soon.
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: Well, friends, you hear the buzz all around us because, yes, we are still at G3.
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of busy bees all around, but what a great atmosphere and an atmosphere that is perfect for the guests that we have with us today, our dear, beloved brother Justin.
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: Justin, I'm sure our audience is extremely familiar with you, brother.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: We love you.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: You're more than just a friend.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: You're really like family to us.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Oh man, I appreciate that so much.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: I think the same of y' all too.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: I love, I love you guys.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: I love your heart for the gospel, your passion for truth.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: I love Ray and just everything that y'all do.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: So anything that I can do to be of help to you guys yeah, I praise the Lord for you.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: I'm so grateful.
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: We're blessed by our friendship, we're blessed by our partnership in the gospel and we're really excited to have you on today.
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: You've done a lot of different things with our ministries, but it's your first appearance on the podcast and I know our people are gonna be really blessed, encouraged and, most importantly, informed with truth.
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: And so, for those that know you, justin, they know that you've had a history in specializing in the word faith movement.
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: This goes back to your seminary days where you you did an examination and critique of the life ministry and theology of healing evangelist Benny Hinn.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: And that was your dissertation, right.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: It was, yeah, I wrote my, my master's thesis on Benny Hinn, and that was back in 2002, right when Benny Hinn was probably at the zenith of his popularity.
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: And so we're so blessed by your ministry because the world has been inundated with this heresy.
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: Unfortunately, the word faith heresy, and a lot of people don't even recognize its error, and so the fact that you're highlighting this is just phenomenal.
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: And I know your ministry is dedicated to expository preaching, creating resources that help believers to understand this, to be able to identify the lies and also to reach out to others that are in this realm.
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: So, justin, what I'd like to do is to get started with you telling us a bit about your past personal encounters with the word faith movement and what led you to launch a ministry that informs and warns people.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Maybe in the, in the midst, that you can start also by helping us define what word faith movement is for those who may be here in that terminology for the first time.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure sure, oscar.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: So let's start there.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: The word faith movement that's the proper term given to a movement that's more commonly known as the health and wealth gospel the name and claim it the prosperity gospel.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Right basically the doctrine that says it is always God's will for a Christian to be wealthy.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: It's always God's will for a Christian to be physically healed.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: You should never be sick.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Or if you do get sick, then physical healing is guaranteed, as long as you have enough faith as long as you sow enough seed, in other words give enough money, so seed, so you can reap a harvest.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: And so that's that's what that is.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: And also new apostolic reformation, that's a twin movement to the word faith movement but, even worse, has an even greater emphasis on miracles, signs and wonders.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Modern-day apostles and they get into more of the dominion theology kind of thing, so but what we're seeing today is a word of faith which you would have, like Benny Hinn, kenneth Copeland, jesse DuPlanus, joyce Meyer, those are some of the big Joseph Prince, those are some of the big names in the word of faith Andrew Wommack, nar.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: You would have Bill Johnson, bethel Church.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: He's kind of the most well-known leader of the NAR.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: But these things are melding together now.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: They're basically indistinguishable so, and they cross, pollinate, they're one in the same.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: So that's what I'm dealing with.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: But how I got involved in it?
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: So I was born and reared into a southern Baptist church.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Looking back, it was a kind of a nominal, nothing overtly heretical, but just kind of a, you know, not a real strong, doctorly sound church.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: But at any rate, a neighbor of mine came up to me and he said Justin, god has spoken to me and he's told me that he's going to heal you as long as you have enough faith, and so, as a teenager I was 16 years old that resonated with me.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I wanted to be healed.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: I wanted to walk, I wanted to play football, do all these things.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: And so he told me about a faith healer who was coming to my hometown named Nora Lam LEM.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: And so I thought I had all the faith and I, you know, thought I'd gended up and I was ready to be healed.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: And so I went to see Nora Lam at a big crusade and obviously was not healed.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: So that was my first exposure to it, to the movement, but I didn't even realize it was a movement.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that it had a name or anything.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: That didn't come until years later, as a seminary student, and I began to study it more academically and then, as I studied it, I began to realize that this is a, this is not just minor theological error here we're dealing with.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: This is a different gospel yeah they have a different God, a different Jesus, a different gospel.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: So some fundamental heresies that they teach, and so I began to study it.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: And then, long story short, I wrote my master's thesis on Benny Hinn and I went to a number of Benny Hinn crusades as part of my research.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: And then, and then, a church in Alabama, a couple years after that, back in 2004, asked me to come and teach on this movement, and that was the first time I did my seminar, which back then was called a call for discernment.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Now it's called clouds without water.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: That was almost 20 years ago, and the Lord has just opened up doors for me to go now all around the world.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Wow, Justin, I would love, real quick, to just hear the human side of it, because I think we can talk so often about a theological aspect, which we will get into, I know.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: But how about?
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: What does it do to a teenager who is told if you have enough faith, you'll be healed?
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: And then what does that do to their faith?
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Does that, I mean, did it cause a faith crisis for you?
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: And if not, how did how could that potentially become a stumbling block for so many?
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: And Justin, before you answer that, just for context for our people that that don't know you or haven't seen you, if you can tell them a little bit about your condition so they understand what it was you were seeking to be healed from.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I should have maybe included that I was born with cerebral palsy and so.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: But there's, I've kind of got a built-in advantage, in a sense, that I was born with this yeah and so this is my normal.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I've never known anything different, yeah, so I don't I tell people I don't miss walking.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: For the same reason I don't miss flying in the space shuttle.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: I've never done it, so I don't really.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: You know, it's just my normal.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: So I think it's easier to be in a situation like I'm in as opposed to someone who was able-bodied and then lose that in a car accident or so anyway.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: So I have cerebral palsy, you know with me.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: So for context, I wasn't even saved at the time.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I thought I was, but I wasn't.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: So did it create a faith crisis?
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: I can't technically say that, because looking back I understand that I wasn't even converted.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: But what it does do to people is that if you begin with a premise that it is always God's will to be healed and you seek that and the healing does not come, then the question must be asked whose fault is it?
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: yeah, and by definition, it cannot be God's fault.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: So guess who's left right you're sick, it's your fault, it's your lack of faith, it's your lack of giving, or maybe you're not even saved.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: So it it does shipwreck to people's faith, there's a an incalculable cost and the damage is just untold that comes from this move you know what, when I think of the paralytic that was lowered down through the roof, right, it was the faith of the friends.
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: That's what the text says.
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it wasn't the faith of the individual that's right so how would they deal with a text like that?
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: Why can't somebody come to Benny Hinn and say listen, I have no faith to be healed, let it be according to your faith, the way it was with the paralytic through the roof, right?
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: Exactly?
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: How do they deal with?
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: that they, they ignore it.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: They they ignore passages like that.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: They can't deal with those kind of passages.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Nor can they deal with other passages in which Jesus healed people and there was apparently no faith at all, like the man who was crippled at the pool of Bethesda.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a multitude sick laying there right and Jesus only healed one of them, by the way out of the multitude.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: He only healed one, not everybody, but he didn't know who Jesus was.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: The man born blind in John chapter 9.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: He didn't know who Jesus was so there are many times Jesus healed and there was apparently no faith at all on the part of the person being healed.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: Jesus is a sovereign healer.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: So, but to your question specifically, mark, that is an excellent point and I would like to issue an open challenge to Todd White, to Benny Hinn, to Kenneth Copeland, to any of these faith healers.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Andrew Wommack, heal me, and I say that not because I'm dissatisfied with the condition which I am.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: This is God's providence for my life.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: But if you can heal people, I mean, if you have the gift of teaching, you teach right.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: If you have the gift of mercy, you show mercy.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: If you have the gift of administration, you administer it.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: We use our gifts.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: So, if you have the gift of healing, heal me.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: No, I don't have faith in you, but I do have complete faith in God.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: God could heal me in an instant if you wanted to.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: I've got complete faith in that.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: So no doubt, no doubt at all, no doubt at all.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: I have more confidence that God can heal me.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Then I have confidence that the sun's gonna come up tomorrow morning.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: So heal me and put an end to my ministry.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: It would be a tremendous boon for you.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's great.
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: You know, justin, I'd love you to give us a little bit of a history lesson on the roots to the movement and then also highlight some of its top parishes, if you would.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so the origins of this movement are bad, to say the least.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: So they appeal to, they sometimes refer to these men and women that they call God's generals, some of the people that they revere, the early leaders of this movement, guys like John Alexander Dowey, charles Fox, parham, amy Simple, mcpherson, smith Wigglesworth, john G Lake these are some of the revered generals of the early word of faith movement.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've done a lot of study in this To a man, to a woman, they were theological heretics.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: They were prolific false prophets.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Most of them, if not all, but most of them, were sexually immoral.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Some of them were actual murderers.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, I mean dark, dark, dark stuff, wow, dark stuff.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: And these are the people that they call their leaders.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: They trace the origins of their movement back to these individuals and just flat out con artist and charlatans.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Justin, I think it'd be helpful here again for those listening who maybe are not super familiar with the things.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm definitely not on the side of Bethel, but aren't we supposed to be praying for healing?
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Can you help create a distinction between praying for healing, believing that God can heal, and the word of faith, movement faith healers?
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, great question, oscar.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: So let me dovetail that into what Izzy was asking about.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: The heresies and the healing and the heresies go hand in glove.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: So basically, the word of faith movement teaches that when a person becomes a Christian he becomes a God.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: They're little gods doctrine and the heresies gotten so bad now that I tell people they've almost dropped the little from the little God's doctrine.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: They literally teach that we're gods, that God reproduces himself in us, that we are just like Christ.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: We are on an equal plane with God, the Father, and Jesus Christ.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: We are gods.
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: Unbelievable.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: It is unbelievable.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: It truly is.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: People don't realize how heretical this movement is, but because we're gods a God cannot be poor and a God certainly cannot be sick Because we're gods and so therefore, we are entitled to health and wealth, and that's why they hold so tenaciously to this movement, because we're deity.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Basically, the appeal to health and wealth is what makes this movement so appealing and yet so dangerous at the same time.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Because when you tell people, come to Jesus, because he'll make you rich and you'll never be sick again, well, you've got about eight billion people on this planet who want those things.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: So that's why this movement is so popular and it's growing the way it is.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: They appeal to fallen human flesh, fallen human desires.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: That's what people want.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: They say, well, if you'll just quote unquote come to Jesus, then you can have it.
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: What is the gateway to enter into something like this?
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: When somebody starts off and they go listen, I'm not going to be sitting underneath the teaching of Benny Hinn, but perhaps they are starting over here what is there that maybe progresses or degresses down into full word faith?
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, another great question.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: So and I have to be careful the way I say this, but the gateway, in my opinion, is the charismatic position, the continuous position, the belief that all of the sign gifts continue to be operative today.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: Now, justin, do you say you want to be careful because there are obviously sincere believers within that realm?
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: Who haven't gone in that direction.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: They're just saying look, scripturally, we see that the gifts have continued and they're not, you know they're not engaging in an insane way.
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: Is that why you're saying that?
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: yeah.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: So you know, as a cessationist, I believe that some of the gifts continue the gift of teaching, mercy, administration, those gifts but I believe that the apostolic gifts, the sign gifts, have ceased.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I don't believe there are no more apostles today, and all of us should be able to agree to that.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: There's no more capital A apostles today.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Those guys are long gone.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Have been in heaven for about 2,000 years.
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and there are solid believers that you and I both respect and whose teachings were blessed by.
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: That may be continuationist, but they're not within that realm that you're identifying.
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: They're not within that realm.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Guys like John Piper.
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: Wayne Grudem, those would be continuous Sam Storms yeah.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: But once you open that door it is a slippery slope right into Benny Henland.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: It's a slippery slope into the world of faith.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I think some of the kind of the what is what a lot of people think is the more kind of the kinder, softer version of word of faith would be like your hill songy stuff hill song that leads you right into word of faith.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: The hill song is word of faith.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: It opens that door and it's a very slippery slope.
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: Now, I've seen you address this before, but maybe just one more moment.
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: What about a solid church who says I'm going to pick and choose a couple songs from Bethel or pick and choose a couple songs from hill song, and I'm completely against word of faith, I'm completely against prosperity.
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: What's wrong with a simple song?
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: So this music is enormously popular.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: But the danger mark is that when the unsuspecting person is out there in the pew on a Sunday morning and they're reading the lyrics of this particular song in granted, I'll admit, some of their songs do have lyrics that would pass a basic doctrinal smell test.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: They do, some don't, a lot of them don't, but some do.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: But when they're looking up at the screen and they're reading the lyrics and they see in the fine print music by Bethel, yeah, music by Hill song, oh, bethel Hill song Well you know they must be okay.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Let me, let me look them up, and so that exposes people to these cults, and that's what they are.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I know it's a strong term, but I stand by it.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: These are cults, and one of the pastor's most sacred duties is to protect his flock from the wolves.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: But by singing Bethel and Hillsong music, you're not protecting, you're inviting the wolves in, you're opening the door and say come Another component.
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: would you agree that you're actually now giving money by playing their music?
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: 100% you are, If the church is doing what it should be doing following the CCLI licensing agreement when you sing any copyrighted music, you're supposed to be sending in money to the CCLI organization that, in turn, distributes it to whoever wrote the music, so you're actually funding a cult.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: You're funding a cult that preaches a different Jesus, a different gospel, is leading millions of people down the Primrose path straight to hell, and doing so all in the name of quote, unquote Jesus.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: You're funding a cult, and that's exactly right.
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: Boy, this is such a great point.
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: You know, I've often pointed out that, listen, I will never use God's name in vain.
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: But maybe I'll go to a movie theater and I'll pay somebody else to use my Lord's name in vain that's right, and I'm gonna sit there and then I'm gonna tell the people what a great movie that was.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: There's a danger.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: There is a huge danger.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I've heard it said.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know who said this, maybe it was MacArthur, I'm not sure.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I'll take credit, you'll take it.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: I'll give it a toss.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: We should not entertain ourselves with the sins for which Christ died.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: Why do we want to do that?
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah absolutely, Justin.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: Obviously there are a lot of personalities within this heretical realm.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: Who would you say are some of the most dangerous and why?
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, so I've already named Benny Hinn, kenneth Copeland, joyce Meyer, andrew Wommack, jesse Duplanis, joseph Prince, I would say.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: And Michael Todd is another one.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: He's been on a meteoric rise here in the last few years.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Todd White, the guy that lengthens people's legs which is a total strength.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to ask you about that in a minute.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I would say one of the most dangerous individuals is actually the one who's perceived to be the friendliest, and that is Joel Oste.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure that it's still the case, but up until recently his church, lakewood Church, was the largest church quote unquote in the United States of America.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: It comes across as really nice, down home, folksy, all shucks kind of personality and he smiles a lot, you know the light fluffy kind of.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: But I think that this makes, whereas a lot of people will pick up, hey, there's something wrong with Kenneth Copeland, a lot of people will pick up on that, but they see nothing wrong with Joel Oste, and so he has an even broader appeal to people and I think that that makes him one of the most dangerous false teachers.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: So what does he say?
• 26:21
  Speaker 5: so Undoubtedly, we have people that listen to us from all walks of life, and somebody who says you just talked about my pastor.
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah Right, what is specifically wrong with Joel Oste?
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: Specifically Joel Osteen says Well, his smile, that's perfect.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm not putting words in his mouth.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: I've heard him say this, I have it on video.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: He says I do not preach about sin, I don't preach on sin.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Well, how do you preach the gospel if you don't preach about sin?
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Right, and he says, by his own admission, he doesn't know much doctrine or theology.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: I've heard him say that.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Like pastor, saying exactly a pastor saying that you know I whoa, whoa then, then what?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: are you doing A?
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: secular job, you don't need to be preaching it.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: So, by his own admission, he doesn't preach on sin.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: And also Joel Osteen, not once, not twice, not even three times, but has repeatedly denied the exclusivity of the gospel, that Jesus is the only way to be saved.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: I have him on multiple occasions saying that Mormons are Christians, mormons love Jesus, and he even says Hindus love Jesus.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: They love Hindus love God.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: You know, no Hindus have what Like 300 million gods or whatever.
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is why this is important, right, because if anyone comes to you preaching another gospel, galatians tells us let him be anathema.
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: That's right, right, so we cannot be entertained, it doesn't matter what a great speaker or a great orator he might be.
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: That's right he has deviated from the truth.
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: The truth is what sets people free.
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: Lies is what puts people in bondage, and what is happening is, without people knowing it, they're being put in bondage.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: They're being put in bondage.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: I think here's something important to consider too is we have to look to the scriptures to understand the way in which healing was done in the New Testament and distinguish the way the Word of Faith movement does it now.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: The way the Word of Faith movement does it now is like the purpose of this is to give you a great life.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: But we have to remember especially, like, especially, the way John uses Jesus's signs.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: His signs were his healing and all of his miracles were direct representation that he was who he said he was, which was the Messiah, and you think.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: And so two examples of that the very first healing in the book of John are not, I'm sorry, not the very first person.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: The very first miracle in the book of John is turning water into wine, which was a call back to the Exodus story, in which, during the plagues, god turns the Nile River into blood.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: And so what John is doing is he's creating a parallel.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: He's saying here is the God who was the plague maker to Pharaoh, who is now the one who's bringing about his kingdom here.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: And then, if you think about the very last miracle that he does, what does he do?
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: He brings a first born son named Lazarus back to life.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: What is the last mirror, what is the last plague?
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: To kill the first born son in Egypt?
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: And so, again, what he's saying is that this God that was the God of life and death that saved you out of slavery, is now the God that rules and reigns right now, here in Forevermore.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: And so the point is the purpose of the miracles in the New Testament were to show you that Jesus was Messiah, not so that you can just have a great life today.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: That's right, how important.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: I guess the question is how do they miss the gospel and settle for lesser things?
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they really don't.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: They know what the gospel is, but they hate it.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: They hate the true God.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: They hate and I'm gonna say this is gonna be a strong statement, but hear me out they hate God.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: They claim to worship a God, but a God after their own making.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: They do not worship the God of the Bible.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: The God of the Bible does not promise us our best life now, does not promise us a life of ease.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: In fact, what does the Bible?
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: It promises us persecution.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: That's what we're promised.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: All who live God and Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: So it's not that they don't.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: They have the same Bible we do.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: You know they have the same Bible we do.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: It's not ignorance.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: They know what's in the scriptures.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Joel Osteen knows.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: He just chooses not to preach the full counsel of God.
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: So would you say that?
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: All of these guys?
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: Undoubtedly, if you were to ask them, do you love God?
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: They would all say yes absolutely.
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but it's a figment of their imagination.
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: Right, it's a God that doesn't exist.
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: It's in the place of imagery.
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: But let me ask you this specifically they're deceiving people, yeah.
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: Do they know that they are charlatans?
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: Do?
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: they know legitimately.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I always want to know, yeah, so a great question, one of the more common ones I am asked.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: The answer is, I believe, in 2 Timothy, chapter 3, verses 12 and 13,.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Paul says that evil men and imposters will grow from bad to worse.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: Deceiving and being deceived, yeah, deceiving and being deceived.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Now, some of these individuals, what I would call the bottom feeders of the word of faith movement guys like Peter Popoff and Robert Tilton and Don Stewart those guys, I understand, there's two different Don Stewart, the old, a radical, don Stewart.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: So people, so bad.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Tbn won't even put them on.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: So they know full well that they're charlatans.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: But some of the others and I think Benny Hinn is a classic example he falls into that 2 Timothy 3, 13 category.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: He is deceiving and being deceived.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: So both of those dynamics.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: So in other words, benny Hinn knows that when he claims people are healed on his stage they're not healed.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: He knows that he has told many, many, many lies about major events in his own life and ministry.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: He says his father was a mayor of Jaffa, israel.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: He never was.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's just factual, historical truth.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: So he knows he's lying to people, he knows he's deceiving.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: And yet there is a part of Benny Hinn that I believe and Costi has affirmed this to me because we've talked about it there's a part of Benny Hinn that I think he has convinced himself that he's doing the right thing, that he's actually serving the.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Lord you may have heard it said if you tell a lie often enough, you begin to believe it yourself so he is deceiving and being deceived, so it's not a with most of these people.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: it's not an either or it's a both and they have eyes and cannot see, and ears but cannot hear.
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: I'm so glad you highlighted that, justin, and I can't put into words how overjoyed I am that we're doing this particular episode.
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: You know, especially you mentioned Joel Osteen.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: I think there are people maybe who are listening now I don't know how they came across the podcast.
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: I know those that have listened to us for long enough probably recognize Joel Osteen as a false teacher, but I think others are like what really?
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: And it's so important that this is highlighted.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: But it's also important for us to highlight the fact that people need to look at the standard of God's Word, because there are a lot of people out there preaching that aren't known like these guys we've mentioned, and so believers have to look at Scripture and say wait a minute, does this align with what God's Word says?
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: That is the true litmus test for us to look at God's Word and say this does not align with Scripture.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Scripture is our plumb line and no matter how you know Satan disguises himself.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: How, as an angel of light, he doesn't show up red and scaly, with a bifurcated tail, carrying a hair fork a pitchfork, he disguises himself.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: So, joel Osteen, you know he comes across very nice, smiles a lot, seems very affable, but he's a wolf.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: He's a wolf in sheep's clothing.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: In fact, 26 of the 27 books in the New Testament directly warn about false doctrine and or false teachers.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Right, and most of them multiple, multiple times.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, only the book of Philippians doesn't do it directly.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: So warning about false doctrine, false teachers, this is a prominent theme in the New Testament.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: It's something we must do.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and Justin, you know we're going to go a little over with you actually, because this is just way too important.
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: So let me do another 10 minutes or so after our time expires, but let me ask you this what would because I don't want to miss this, this is hugely important what would be your approach if you were trying to reach someone inside the movement?
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: Because we have friends listening that, no question, have family and friends that are in there.
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: How do you reach them?
• 34:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah, wait before you answer that, I want to actually divide that into two portions, if I would.
• 34:38
  Speaker 5: So we have people that are actually in the Bennington camp.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: And then you have somebody who is a continuationist, who says listen, I don't know what you're going to say, but I have experiences that back up I've had a word of wisdom, I've had a word of knowledge, I've been able to look inside somebody's life and I just think you're interpreting that wrong.
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: So I want to actually have you address two of those types of camps.
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: If you would, starting with first, maybe that easy had mentioned the Bennington camp.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: So how do I reach someone?
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: So I tell people if you've got friends and family members in this movement, I wouldn't necessarily encourage you to launch in.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Well, you know this movement is rooted in the metaphysical cults as an aberrant Christology and atonement because they're not going to understand.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: it Sounds like something I would do, unfortunately.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: But start with something very simple and concrete, for example, physical healing.
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Ask your friend family member do you believe that it's always God's will to be healed?
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: And they'll say yes, of course, because that's what they believe, and say, okay, then help me to understand.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: What do you do with all of these examples of faithful servants of God all throughout scripture who were sick and were never healed?
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: What do you do with Moses?
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: God said to Moses who has made man's mouth?
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind?
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Is it not I, the Lord, right?
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: What do you do with that?
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: What do you do with Elisha?
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Elisha had a double portion anointing of the great prophet Elijah.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: And yet in 2 Kings, chapter 13, verse 14, I believe it is, says Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness, whereof he died.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: What do you do with Job?
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: The whole book of Joe.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: What do you do with David?
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: It was good for me that I was afflicted, that I might learn your statutes.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: What do you do with Timothy?
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Take a little wine for your stomach and your frequent ailments.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: And even the apostle Paul in Galatians, chapter 4, verse 13, paul said but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I came and preached the gospel to you the first time and that which was a trial to you.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: In my bodily condition, you did not despise or loathe, but receive me as a God, even as Christ Jesus himself.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: So here you have all of these faithful servants of God who were sick.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: The apostle Paul was sick, and this is the man who wrote roughly a third of the New Testament.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: So right, who are you gonna believe that?
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Now, the ball's in their court?
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Who are you gonna believe the prosperity preacher that you've been listening to that says it's always God's will to be healed?
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Or you're gonna believe what you see in black and white in the Bible?
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: right in front of you, yeah and that is going to give you a pretty good litmus test, Kind of like a spiritual barometer.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Where are they?
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: And I've had people respond to that in one of two ways.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: They'll say Well, you know, I've had people literally point at the Bible I was showing them and said I don't care what that says.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: Oof.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's a problem.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: That's a problem.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: And if they're not open to reasoning from the scriptures, because that is our authority, then there's nowhere to go from there.
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: There's no other.
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: So you find this pathway to be fruitful.
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: The majority of the people do they double down, Do they put their fingers in their ears?
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: Where do we?
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: You know, it's almost kind of half and half.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: I have it go either way.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: I've had people just absolutely double down, dig their heels in.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Well, I just know that my God wouldn't want anybody sick and I'm thinking well, you're right, your God wouldn't yeah right but the God of the Bible would.
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: So where do people go now?
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: Everybody dies.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Everybody dies.
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: Everybody dies.
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: So how do you deal with that topic?
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: Everybody's going to die.
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, because you have some of these Word Faith preachers who end up getting sick, getting cancer, getting.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: How did they describe that?
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Did they hide that?
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Did they say I don't?
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: have enough faith.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: This is what's going on, or do they acknowledge or change their theology?
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: What happens?
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: They try to hide it.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: They try to hide it.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: It's like your pastor sneezes.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: You're like oh.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: They try to hide it, but they get sick, just like the rest of us do.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: In fact, Kenneth Copeland I've got him on video Kenneth Copeland has a pacemaker.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: He wears hearing aids, so what they preach doesn't even work for them.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: So if what they're preaching doesn't work for them, that ought to be a clue to them.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: As far as death, they say well, we should all die like Moses died.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: When Moses died, it said that King James's eyes were not dim.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: His forces were unabated.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: So apparently Moses died as a healthy 120-year-old, and so he just died.
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: Unbelievable.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: They say we should all die like that.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: But the problem is is that none of them ever do.
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, Justin, I got to get an answer to this.
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: What went through your mind when you saw the Kenneth Copeland video where that reporter chased him into?
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: I think he was in his hangar, I don't know of it, yeah.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: Okay, because and again I'm trying to be careful, but the way he responded at one point almost seemed demonic.
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: Do you remember when she said something?
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: he goes in don't you ever say that Exactly.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: And then was just like whoa.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you think about that?
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Easy.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I really believe and I was saying this before that video came out, but that video just confirmed what I'm about to say I don't truly believe, without any hyperbole, that Kenneth Copeland is demon possessed.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: I really genuinely believe that I've been saying that too.
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: It was so great it was like this is, and it was like this flash, and then you like try to calm down.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I love your eyes.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: I mean he's demon possessed.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: I don't believe all of them are.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: I mean I think all of them were working for him, but Kenneth Copeland, I believe, and Kenneth Copeland and Todd Bentley, I believe.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Both of those guys are truly, genuinely demon possessed.
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: And what?
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: What makes you say that?
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Kenneth Copeland both of them.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: But Kenneth Copeland has taught some of the most blood curdling heresies that have ever crossed the lips of anyone calling himself an evangelical Right.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: Blood curdling, flat out, denying the deity of Christ just horrific heresies.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: He's a prolific false prophet these things like you're talking about in the interview.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Honestly, there's just something about the guy's eyes.
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: Just watching it's just otherworldly dark, and I believe he's demon possessed and Todd Bentley like talking about kicking people and yeah, in the head and all this insanity Like how do you?
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: How do you ever square that with scripture?
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: You know, I know it's crazy, I know.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: Hey look, I know your good friends with Costi Hinn and we know his story.
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: I'd love to hear your thoughts on what happened to him and how you think this may have impacted Benny.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know I love Costi's story.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Costi called me.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: This was back in 2015 or 16.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: And he called me and left me a voicemail.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I was at the, I was anyway.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: I couldn't pick up the call when he called, but I read the.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: It came up in my Gmail and the transcript was there and I was just flipping, looking on my phone.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I was reading and I read it said hi, my name is Costi Hinn.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: I just want to call and thank you for your ministry.
• 41:20
  Speaker 5: I've learned so much I've been reading this like no way, and you didn't know the name at the time.
• 41:24
  Speaker 5: I, I, yeah, no, I didn't know.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: I did know who Costi was, yeah, cause.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I knew who he was and so I'm read.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: I read that it's like no way, this can't be.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: This is a typo.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: You know the the transcription didn't go right, so I called him.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Sure enough, it's Costi, and that began a friendship and easy.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: This.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: That is a perfect and beautiful and glorious example of the true work of the Holy.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: Spirit Amen.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: And people tell me all this.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Oh Justin, he's a cessatious.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: He doesn't believe in the work of the Holy Spirit, doesn't he?
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Sometimes don't even believe in the Holy Spirit.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, no to the contrary.
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he has a book out that just came out dealing with the Holy Spirit.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right Exactly, Is that?
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: This is what the Holy Spirit?
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: The Holy Spirit is not making.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Angel feathers fall out of the sky and it's not turning.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Glitter dust glitter, dust, all that.
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: Those are con those.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: those are scam, so they're.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: They're tricks, parlor tricks.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: This is what the Holy Spirit does.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: The Holy Spirit delivers people out of darkness in July.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: That's what he did for Costi and and he's given Costi a backbone of steel and he has.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: He has stood up to his family.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: He has spoken the truth and love.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: In fact, I did a video on my YouTube channel just a few days ago when I was addressing Benny Hinn and I told him, if he gets, if he watches it, I said Benny, your nephew Costi is the only member of your family that has shown you true love.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: And then when he sees that Costi is not, he's shown him true love by telling him the truth.
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: And that's yeah, that's exactly right, because love is giving somebody what they need.
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: That's right.
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: I'm curious what does repentance look like If somebody comes along and says you know what I got it wrong there?
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: If Benny were to come out and say I was wrong Does?
• 43:04
  Speaker 5: He continually now teach, but now teach a different message.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: What does repentance look?
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: like.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: So.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Benny actually has done this on a few different occasions.
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: Most recently.
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, remember he got up and did this for a few years.
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: I'm not preaching anymore that people should give X amount or whatever, as he's wearing $1500 per shoes.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, x amount.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: He's done this several times, but Benny Hinn most recently about three, three, four years ago.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: He said that I was wrong for teaching people to give, that they should give a thousand dollar seed and God will bless them he said if I ever hear that again, I think I'm gonna throw up.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: And he said I repent.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: You know I was wrong and that made a lot of news.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, benny, and repent it.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: Benny Hen didn't repent of anything.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: The only thing he's changed is he's no longer giving a specific dollar amount now.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: He's no longer saying one thousand dollars, but still, every single program he does, he tells people so your seed, give me money, god will give you a harvest.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: In fact, that video that I referenced just a few days ago as of this, recording Benny Hen is being driven around in his luxury car I don't know exactly what it is, but you can tell it's a luxury car and he says he said give, give to the Lord.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: In other words, give to me, give to the Lord, give to me right give to the Lord.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: He said even what little you have left, give it Wow what little you have left, disgusting.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: He has not repented of anything.
• 44:20
  Speaker 5: What was it that happened?
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: Oh, oh, what took place inside of?
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: them.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Honestly, here's what I think happened.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: God is as used costy's testimony, and costy's testimony has done a lot of damage to Benny Hen's ministry.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Praise God, praise the Lord absolutely.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: But here's what real repentance would look like, mark.
• 44:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Real repentance bears real fruit, tangible fruit.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Therefore, bear fruit and keeping with repentance.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Real repentance bears real fruit.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Zaki is kind of repentance.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: Luke 19 bears real fruit.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: Here's what real repentance.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: If Benny Hen was truly repent and I'll fill in the blank here with Kenneth Copeland, todd white, all of them they would come out and they would say this I've been lying to you, hmm, I have been teaching heresy, I've been deceiving you.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: All of the people that I've claimed were healed in my ministry were not healed, and I know they weren't.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: I Now realize that I am not biblically qualified to be in ministry, and so I'm shutting it down.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: I'm selling everything the ministry owns, down to the last light bulb, the last notepad.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: I'm selling it all.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: I'm giving every dime of it to doctrinally sound ministries, doctrinally sound churches, and I'm gonna find a good, doctrinally sound church Led by biblically qualified men.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna be behind the pulpit, I'm gonna be in front of the pulpit, pulpit, sitting in the pew and learning.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: That's really good that my friends would be repentance.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Wow anything less than that makes a mockery of repentance.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's what repentance would have I man.
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I seen that.
• 45:54
  Speaker 5: Has anybody actually done that?
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: I've not seen it in any of the big names.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Now I have heard from a number of word-of-faith pastors that were that nobody knows about, that have emailed me, called me, talked to me.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: In fact I've talked to one here that God truly granted repentance to and they truly did repent.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: That's awesome, so right.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: But yeah, you know, justin, there are so many, I think, that Don't realize that God is at work in this realm.
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: We may not see it Immediately, or we may not see it with the big guys, but God, god is moving, moving, he's doing different things, absolutely.
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: And Would you, would you recount Any time when you've actually been approached by anyone that's like known, that has privately you know you don't have to say names but that has reached out to you and said, hey, I need some help or direction here I'm struggling, I'm realizing my error.
• 46:48
  Speaker 5: Give me course for thought.
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've not had anybody that that is well known.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: Reach out to me.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, other than smaller.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: You know word-of-faith pastors with you, know churches that nobody knows of, but but I have managed to confront some of these individuals.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: I've confronted Joel Osteen in person.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: I've confronted Jesse Duplantis in person.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: I've tried to get in contact with some others, but those are the two that I've I've been able to make how did those go, those encounters?
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: not real well.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: And it's.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: It's like when I began talking to them, as soon as they realized that I knew what I was talking about, then they didn't want to have anything to do with me, right?
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: They Motioned me on.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Joel Osteen went on to the next person.
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: Jesse Duplantis just hit one of his goons, I guess, kind of kind of moved me away.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Todd Bentley as well.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's actually on YouTube.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Wow, my confrontation, todd Bentley.
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: So those are the three I've been able to yeah, and you know I'm glad earlier you mentioned genuine repentance.
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: You know there's a popular video of Todd White talking about Ray comfort and and about how you know.
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: He loves Ray and he was like talking about, he listened to this and it was so impactful and so people were like, oh, maybe something's going on.
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: But then he went on later to clarify oh no, no, you know, kind of like justifying what he does.
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: That's right and and real quick before we wrap up the leg lengthening thing.
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: Yes, okay, like what is it I mean, of all the things to try to do?
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: Why did they do that?
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: Why is that used as like a ploy to try to get?
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: her back.
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, I mean it's so evidently easy to you know, stretch one leg or yep, that's exactly what he's doing and he knows he's doing that.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: In fact, I have a video of him doing that to one guy and he actually says okay.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: He said it doesn't matter, what you believe you can get in the weirdest state of unbelief, doesn't matter.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: And the reason he could say that to that guy so confidently is because he knew that what he was about to do was a trick.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: He knows that yeah, so he's intentionally deceiving people, which goes back to the repentance.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: If he was truly repent, he would come out and he would say I've been deceiving you.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Todd White hasn't repented of anything.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: Well, my prayers that our hearts as God's people will will remain tender enough because part of us are so Griply, griply, grip, deeply, griply, and and angered, as we should be, because this grieves God's heart, but at the same time, I pray we maintain enough tenderness to pray for these deceived, it's good deceivers.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: And earlier and others within that realm.
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: Don't you think that's important?
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: I do easy in fact, and not I'm not trying to promote one YouTube channel, but if people go back, I've got several videos.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: A direct personal Plea to Kenneth Copeland.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: To be now to Sid Roth I meant to Todd White and I plead with them and I give them the gospel and I tell them.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: I don't hate you, I don't hate Benny, I don't hate Kenneth Copeland.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: I hate what they're doing.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't hate them and I would love nothing more than to see them come to true saving faith in Christ.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: And if they do, it will be evidenced by real repentance.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: They'll be.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: They'll shut their ministry.
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, good Amen.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: Well, justin, we could go on and on with you, and we need to do this again.
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: Actually, there's so much more to talk about, but yeah, this has been so good, so helpful, so informative, and we want you to plug your YouTube channel.
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: We want people to know exactly where they can find out more about your ministry and the resources you provide.
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: So go plug away, brother.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, my website is simply Justin Peters org and my YouTube channel, justin Peters Ministries, and, and All my stuff is available there.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: So thank you guys.
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: We love you, brother.
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: I love you to a lifetime of partnership with you, and friendship in the gospel.
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: I love y'all too.
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Mark.
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: I've got to say you're on fire in that interview.
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: I mean you were peppering poor Justin with Sure Well listen, I just like being around him.
• 50:33
  Speaker 5: Seriously, I just like listening to him.
• 50:35
  Speaker 5: I he's such a genuine brother.
• 50:37
  Speaker 5: You know a lot of people think that he only deals with the word of faith, movement and everything like that, but he is very deep theologically.
• 50:45
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, he can really hold his own discussing any topic and he has just genuine care to make sure that you understand what you're talking about.
• 50:53
  Speaker 5: I love it.
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, he gave us some good stuff, oscar.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I thought the most powerful thing was that sort of challenge like, hey, but by your own faith, come and heal me.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: That's strong.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that is.
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: And Ray Justin's been a good friend for years for us.
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: He's been to the ministry a number of times, yeah, and he, he's, he's got his priorities.
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: He cares about the lost, yeah, and he'd come down when we're open here preaching and witness to people around the crowd.
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: And D Wonderful, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: And then from time to time He'll he'll post about his witnessing encounters.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: Wow I love that.
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: You know a guy who's so deeply theologically trained and deals with some heady stuff.
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that he understands it's all about the gospel.
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we love Justin.
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: All right, friends, there you have it.
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: Don't forget, please, to give us those ratings.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: Because of you, we have millions of downloads, thousands of ratings still at five stars, so grateful to the Lord for that.
• 51:43
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• 51:46
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• 51:51
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• 52:01
  Speaker 4: Thank you for joining us, friends.
• 52:02
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• 52:07
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