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From Despair To Purposeful Service · Moral Injury Support Network Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, welcome to the Moral Injury Support Podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Daniel Roberts, President and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women Incorporated, a nonprofit organization based in North Carolina that helps women veterans recover from trauma and they experience while serving in the military.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have a great guest with us.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Juliana Lescher is the military veteran liaison for guidepost ministries.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: She provides conferences, seminars, retreats, and trainings on topics which include overcoming anorexia, suicide prevention, healing from breast cancer, caregiving, servant leadership, resilience leadership, vocational calling, and conflict management.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: She also provides dramatic presentations on women of the Bible.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: She ministers from her personal life experiences with scoliosis, anorexia, suicidal attempts, breast cancer caregiving, and senior executive leadership.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: She has a Master of Divinity and PhD in organizational leadership.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Juliana is the author of the inspirational book, A Heart That Sings for Jesus.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate this time to be with you and to share on uh various topics for our audience.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, how you got into the work and ministry you're doing now.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I will start by saying when I was five years old, gave my life to Jesus, and um then at the age of seven, began telling people that I wanted to be in ministry because all I wanted to do was share the love of Jesus with hurting people.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um that was my heart's my heart's desire from a young child.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh some of that may be because I um as a child and teen um had scoliosis, so was treated at Schweiner's Children's Hospital as a child and teen, so saw suffering of not just my own, but the suffering of children around me.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: I also grew up caring for a bedridden grandmother from the age of three till I went away to college.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um saw her pain and her suffering as well.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: So because of that, I think it made me compassionate and empathetic to the hurts and needs of others.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I love Sunday school.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: I love the Bible stories, I love the Bible songs, and just wanted to tell everyone about Jesus.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um growing up in an evangelical conservative church, was told though that you know full-time opportunities for women in the church did not exist.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, was you know sad about that because I love church and church was my happy place.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So when I wanted to go to do my undergraduate degree, I wanted to do it in biblical studies, but was told there's you know no future for women in biblical studies.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: So did an undergraduate degree in public relations and journalism because I felt, well, you know, if you're going to be sharing the gospel, those skills would be uh vital in public relations and journalism.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: In my senior year of college, finally accepted that probably doors to the church were closed for women, but felt called to the mission field.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: So began working with a mission agency to go to Japan following college graduation, was just really excited about this.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Umly at the very last moment after graduating from college to have the mission agency change their stance on what women could do, and the assignment was going to include teaching Bible, and um they were not at that point uh believing that a single female should um go and teach Bible.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that was really a devastating, really devastating blow to me because I took that not just as the rejection of the mission agency, um, but really as the rejection of God.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then there in my early 20s, um ushered in the the three very darkest, darkest years of my life.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um basically I became extremely, um, extremely suicidal, um, did try to take my life several times.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: The primary way in which I was seeking to end my life was actually through deathly anorexia.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was not eating, would even not drink water for long, long periods of time.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um several times, actually a total of uh four different times, would collapsed, um, was declared mentally incompetent and um court committed to a feeding tube in an ICU.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I can say every day, every day that I wake up, I am so grateful to God's grace that I'm alive.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: I know I should not be alive if it was not for God's grace medically.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would should not be here, but I'm also so grateful to medical teams and the legal profession and the state of Pennsylvania at that point in the early 1990s that said a an early a 20-some-year-old does not have the right to end her life.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've always been pro-life, but at that point in my life when I just was feeling so hopeless and feeling that um God had rejected me and there was no opportunity for me for ministry, I felt I had a right to end my life because I didn't feel my life had any meaning or any purpose.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um finally, um, the fourth time when I was court committed was looking actually at a long-term commitment at the state Mendel Institution on a law on a permanent feeding tube, and really at that moment just you know cried back out to God and said, you know, how did I get here when I'm the little girl that only ever just wanted to share about the love of Jesus?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um basically at that point, which um made a commitment um to life and that I would start choosing life, start eating, and believe that God does have an open door for me.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So within uh six months, um then went to seminary at Evangelical Theological Seminary, was the first female accepted into the Master of Divinity program, completed my Master of Divinity, was still being told, you know, there's no opportunity for women in the church and struggled with that, and especially then after the door being closed for the mission field.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um began meeting with a Navy chaplain recruiter and really felt called to active duty because I figured, well, the government will be an equal opportunity employer.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: However, um, because I have steel rods from my neck to my tailbone, complete spinal fusion, um, and nerve damage from the surgeries that I had had as a child and a teen, I could not get a medical waiver.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tried with every single branch of the military.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember one particular recruiter saying, Miss Lesser, you will never ever be active duty.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there's no way we can get you a medical waiver, but I believe God has an open door for you.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we've struggled with that again.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what's going to be this open door?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, it's now the doors to the church have been closed, the doors to the mission field, um, the doors to active duty military chaplaincy.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then finally someone told me about clinical pastoral education.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, what's that?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Oh, well, that's where you do ministry in a hospital.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: My very first response was, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no way.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: You see, um, by that point in my life, you know, in my um mid-20s, I was about 25 at that point, um, I had spent, you know, a lot of my childhood, my teen years, um, my early 20s, in hospitals, either for um scoliosis and spinal fusions or for anorexia and suicidal attempts.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, oh, the last place I want to be in is in a hospital.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I, you know, I wanted to, you know, travel, be active duty, you know, be all I could be, not be back in the hospital, but finally resolved that God's will would be done and completed my CPE, my clinical pastoral education, and then spent almost the next 30 years in healthcare chaplaincy.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh so really I can say most of my life I've spent in hospitals.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um were with the Department of Veteran Affairs.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um initially started with the Department of Veteran Affairs and as a mental health chaplain, uh, then also became a CP educator to train people to be chaplains, then moved into being a chief chaplain and senior executive leadership, and um then in was selected to be the national director of chaplain service for the Department of Veteran Affairs, um, which was a um a true blessing, something that I never ever saw, but certainly saw as part of God's God's sovereign plan.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um I ended up serving during the time when I was the national director, that was the height of the pandemic.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: So had that opportunity to serve as the national director, spiritual director, lead for the world's largest healthcare system during the height of the pandemic.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of just seeing God's hand, um sovereign hand through through all of that.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um after I finished my time as national director and um looking then to um you know what's next, you know, after my service there um with the Department of Veteran Affairs, um left to pastor a small church.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um I had also had breast cancer while I was the national director, so just felt like it was the time to leave the Department of Veteran Affairs, but certainly have a special place in my heart with our for our veterans and our service members.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: So along with pastoring um a short time later, guideposts reached out to me and asked to be their military veteran liaison, and I jumped at the opportunity and really just appreciate um the connection that I still still have with our uh service members um and our and our veterans.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for that.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you've you've done a lot.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: You've been uh uh what what I find fascinating, you know, a lot of women encounter what you experience, which is a deep love to to you know, share the gospel, to minister to people, and and find the church that they grew up, the church the denomination are part of, just won't give them an opportunity.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you really highlight how devastating that can be.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I saw a reel by uh a British guy, I can't remember his name, but he was very senior uh minister, and he said, you know, we we at the current time, this is a few months ago, when the Southern Baptist Convention was really having the a a major issue about women preaching, they made their whole convention about that one issue.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: I thought was kind of crazy, but there there was just so much angst and anger and kerfuffle over that one issue, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, you know what in England we solved this years, decades ago.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we just don't have a problem with women being ministers, and it's still an issue in America, but for the life of we of us we can't we can't figure it out, you know.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's did that create any bitterness in you for not for God, but for for this denominations, the leadership, the church hierarchy that that has this what I would consider arbitrary rules about who can be a pastor and who can't.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I can truly say that there is not um a sense of bitterness or or anger toward um denominations or individuals that believe um women should um not be in leadership, women should not preach, women should not teach.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um I can accept that um that is their belief, um that is their value.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I myself actually hold to um the authority of scripture.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: I believe the the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, then I'm of course questioned, well, how do you deal with the passages of Paul and women not teaching and uh women uh being in submission and women not having authority over men, especially when you were the national director of chaplain service and had 900 some chaplains of all different faith perspectives and men, many men reporting to you.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do you how do you wrestle with that?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I will come in my own heart to say, first and foremost, I am always in submission to the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um so when I look in the scriptures, you know, we are to continually be in submission, be in submission to to the Lord.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was not something that you know I necessarily set out to you know become the national director of chaplain service for the Department of Veteran Affairs.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I did as a child feel a passion and a desire to to pastor, to teach, to preach the gospel.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: That has been a burning desire, and I have to believe, I have to believe God has put that burning passion and heart in me.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I, you know, when I look at my life and I just can recognize, you know, my weaknesses and think, you know, it is the it's the goodness, it's the grace, it's the blessing of Jesus in me that makes me the the pastor, chaplain, minister that I am, and have said to so many people, you know, you want the Jesus in me, you don't want the Juliana in me.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I will look at that that I'm in submission to the Lord and that opportunities that have come when opportunities would come to, you know, with the Department of Veteran Affairs to start serving and then to start training chaplains and then to move into leadership and then senior executive leadership to be everything I kept looking and praying and being like, God, is this your will?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not your will, close the doors.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: If it is, uh, let me walk in obedience.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And to to recognize, you know, when we take positions of leadership, um, we serve there, and in my own view, that we have we serve in as as Christians in particular, um, looking to Jesus, the, you know, who is the author, the perfecter of our faith, the ultimate servant leader, um, that we take these positions of leadership to serve others.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it is that sense of canotic leadership, that kenosis of emptying of ourselves.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, and when we empty ourselves, we can do that so that the Holy Spirit's anointing can come in and flow through us and we can be most effective.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: So have to continually believe that the doors that opened to me have been just in obedience and walking in obedience and recognizing that my ultimate authority is the Lord Jesus Christ submitting to the authority of the scriptures, teaching the scriptures, the truth of the scriptures.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then also having people of, you know, men and women of you know the elders that you know keep me accountable, um, that's so important in leadership that we do have those people that can speak truth into our lives, so that there's that mutual sense of submission and and accountability.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I will say, you know, I'm now, you know, when I look at the scriptures, can and certainly, you know, believe, you know, if God has called a woman to preach, to teach, to lead to lead, then I believe she is to walk in obedience to Christ and and um who is the ultimate authority.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um yet at the same time, I have you know very dear, dear friends, some you know, wonderful friends in Southern Baptists who you know hold positions that you know women should not be pastoring, women should um you know not be in positions of of leadership.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and I can certainly respect that um out of the sense that it is their understanding of the scriptures um and and how we because because for me, because the scriptures are so important um to me, that is I is a respect that I can have just because I do value the the authority of the scriptures.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think um you know the first uh to me I th I thought was interesting and is you know preaching is from a Christian perspective is primarily about announcing the resurrection of Jesus.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And in its in its simplest message, it's about uh the death and resurrection, more importantly, about Jesus.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the first person that announced the resurrection of Jesus was a woman.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: So she was actually the first preacher of the gospel in and factuality.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so so what I what I think is is um interesting is that uh for for people that hold those uh very restrictive views, um you know, it's it often gets boiled down to uh whether a person believes the scripture or not.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not not the argument at all.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the issue at all.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: There are people like you and lots of women who absolutely believe the scriptures, but the idea that one interpretation is the only is the only one, that there are no complexities or contexts to the scripture that make it uh more difficult.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's face it, like most of Paul's writings are very difficult, have lots of difficult.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you look at uh Romans, uh I what I find w with Paul's writings, for instance, is early on in many of many of his epistles, whether you're talking about Romans or Corinthians, you'll see like the very beginning, lots of stuff about grace and favor and all this.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: By the end, he's like absolutely you know condemning certain behaviors, certain activities, certain things, listing sins that are you know, and all that stuff.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, so you know, he's he's wrote most of the epistles, and there are whole books written about how to, you know, I have a couple of books that are called the hard sayings of Paul, you know?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's because this stuff is not simple or easy to to sort out in people's lives, it's just not.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And for anybody to say, well, it's just it's very simple.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's this one scripture that says this, that's all there is to it.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that's so ridiculous because the scripture is very complex.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: There is a lot of context to it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of when you look at one of the things you find in scripture is that um some of some of the some of the passages that that we love to quote about women can't do certain things, right?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Are in direct conflict if you take them as as a message for everything, for everybody at all times, are in direct conflict with other passages that talk about a deaconess and and women who were like there there was a wealthy women who who actually Jesus ministry was allowed to go as it was because of wealthy women that contributed.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: There were wealthy women in in the church after the resurrection that were leaders, but those those parts of scripture are sort of subtle.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and when you when you bring those up, it's like, well, it doesn't really mean what it says there.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it does, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: So so so um all that to say, you know, without making the whole the whole session this whole podcast about you know scriptural differences and all that, but it's just uh I think I think you bring up a good point that you are absolutely as committed to the scripture as anyone, but are able to to see it in a different way, interpret it in a different way, that allows you to still do ministry, to be a leader, and and you have no issue with it, even if other people do.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we have similar issues in the in the military chaplaincy, which I spent over 20 years part of, where women chaplains uh being confronted and and having other chaplains say, Well, I'm not gonna share the pulpit with you, right?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and if on Sundays that you preach, I can't be there, my family won't be there, and stuff.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very hurtful and very painful to to those women.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um they they often say what say what you say, which is like, hey, they have a right to feel that way, it's okay.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: But deep in their heart, it's it hurts because it's it's basically saying you're not as good as me, you're not, there's something wrong with you because you're a woman wanting to do this work.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very similar to what women encounter in the military in general, where they get treated like there's something wrong with you because you're a woman and you want to be in the infantry, or you want to be in the artillery, or you want to go to ranger school, or you or you even just want to be here with me because the military is about men.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, what you encounter uh women encounter in the military all over the place, different jobs they're trying to do, but still this this this concept of you're not good enough just because of your gender and No other reason, right?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: That was the only way you were kept because I I'm sure like those the ministry field, those people, the church that you wanted to preach at, they would love to have a minister who had had your fervor, your fire, your belief, but just because you're a woman, you were told no, and um you know that's very painful.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you managed you managed to find a way to to continue to serve your lord and be helpful to people.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I really applaud that because um there are a lot of women that that do that too.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when I was recruiting chaplains, um, that was one of the issues that I fought against was um trying to get more women chaplains, and part of it was that the requirements to be a chaplain required two to three years, active duty chaplain to be two to three years of pastoral experience.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: But but the women couldn't be pastors, you know.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: The vast over half of denominations in the US do not allow women pastors at all.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: So but they they wouldn't accept like hospital ministry, but but women are found in hospitals, chat prisons, you know, they're doing tons of great ministry, and for a while they just wouldn't accept that experience.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, by the time they left, they were waiving that, they were added allowing more of it, but it was just really hard to get them to understand why, because they would look at their requirements and say, here's what it requires to be an active chapter.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And they make sense to us, and I was like, Yeah, because you're coming from you're a man coming from a pastoral background where it was easy for you to get that experience, but we're talking about women who can't the vast majority of them simply cannot be pastors.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: The other, the other issue was an age form, which was a very similar experience to what you had, is you didn't go to to to your first degree wasn't ministerial because you were told like there's no point in you doing this, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you came to the ministry through an other degree route, and most women that come in the chaplaincy do the same, they start off as lots of other jobs, then they feel called to ministry, they get their divinity, but then they already have some years of age on them because you know they were doing other things, and so so it's more difficult for them to get into the active duty chaplaincy because they're older.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so these these are these are structural barriers, not you know, it's not about the individual person like yourself, it's about the structure that that just sort of fails to see like all the complexities that that it means to be a woman minister.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad you're able to navigate all that and find ways to serve, um, and that God was able to use your experiences to help people.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I applaud that.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I mean, I in my own life um I've seen that you know when we do walk in obedience, that you know, God is faithful.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I've encouraged other women also that have just you know spoken with me about oh, you know, this closed door or this closed opportunity.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um yet all of that can make us more resilient.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, when and just if we even intensify, you know, the depth of our calling, um, that okay, this was not the right place.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: But um God does have that open door.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um all of the whether the closed doors will lead to you know to the place and to the location where I am to to serve um and be a blessing and be blessed to others.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um with your uh uh the suicidality you experienced, how are you able to to use that experience to help others uh like other ministers and chaplains, etc.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: do suicide prevention work?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: I will say I am um passionate about suicide prevention, life promotion, and that does come from just these those very, very extreme dark years of my life.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: The tragedy of suicide, um, which affects men, women, um, boys, girls, I mean, there are children that um sadly um take their lives, is the short-sightedness of suicidal thoughts, um, deep dark depression, that in the moment where everything seems so dark and everything seems so hopeless, and there's no sense of things changing or ever being better.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that is exactly how I felt there in my early 20s when you know the doors to the church are closed, the mission field is closed, there is no opportunity.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I had absolutely no desire to go and be in some communications office and just sit behind a desk, and that was just not why I felt I was created.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, and and knowing that sense of, you know, I'm created for something other than this, and what I really feel I'm created for is not going to materialize.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: That was, you know, that very, very short-sightedness that I couldn't see beyond that darkness.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: It the only option at that point really seemed to, yeah, to want to end my life.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because I who would want to live in a sense where there's no hope, there's no meaning, there's no purpose uh for one's life.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that is really at the crux of, you know, for for so many people that are are suicidal that they that any of us, we can't see beyond that darkness of the moment where there is no hope and that things will not get better.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it pains me when I meet, like I said, you know, men, women of any age, teen girls, teen boys, children, that feel stuck and in this huge just pit of despair and helpless in whatever state they are, and that the state that they're in is not going to change.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I can say and testify over and over, you know, there's times when I would be, you know, court committed to uh a feeding to put in four-point restraints because I was trying to you know pull out the tube and end my life, and to look at where I was there in my early 20s, and then to recognize that you know I would be blessed with an incredible ministry with the Department of Veteran Affairs to become the national director.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: I could have never ever envisioned that in those dark moments.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think of um, well, actually, I can think of many different veterans, um, service members, you know, that I've met over the years, but I think of one veteran in particular who was in a poly trauma center in San Antonio, um, had uh suffered a traumatic brain injury, also had a spinal cord injury, and really if if if he was not a paraplegic, would have been, you know, continually wanting to end his life and just kept, you know, trying any means of saying, you know, I don't want to be here, you know, I had dreams and you know, I was going to be career military, and here I am in my early 20s, and what purpose do I have?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that connection can come from me in being able to share of, you know, there certainly were times in my life when I can think back of, you know, again, like I said, locked in a in a feeding tube and four-point restraints and saying, here I am, you know, and but by the grace of God, and to help people, when we when we share, and any one of us can share, you know, some of those dark moments, and then how God has pulled us through and been faithful and done more than we can ever imagine, to say to someone in their dark moment, in a moment where you're in a polytrauma center and you've lost uh function of limbs and you're dealing with a traumatic brain injury and you're wondering what kind of hope is there for me, to say none of us know you know what tomorrow may bring, and and to believe, you know, we do serve a miracle-working God, but we also serve a God of grace and um who is able to provide the strength and the encouragement.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many resources that come not just from the Department of Veteran Affairs, but through service agencies, other agencies that are there to encourage people to recognize that no matter what disability or loss that you feel you've experienced in your life, that is something that I believe God can always redeem.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I I mean we can look at stories of people who um I mean obviously Johnny Erickson Tata is an extreme example of you know someone who's a quadriplegic and has touched thousands upon thousands, if not millions, of people through through the ministry as a woman and and you know, um quadriplegic.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly, you know, and and so and and to recognize that, to say that to people, we can, and it's not something that maybe you know, when someone is in that state and they're looking at all their losses, but to always say, you know, what do you have left?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, whether it's family, whether it's friends, whether it's, you know, um support, um, I believe that you know you're still a beloved child of God, that God wants to have your life have meaning and purpose.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: And to help them find that meaning and purpose is so important.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because when we look at, again, suicide prevention, life promotion, I look at how the words of Jesus who says, I've come that you might have life and life more abundantly.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um my belief is that Satan as our enemy is that thief, that one that wants to kill and destroy and take away our lives and certainly end our lives, you know, as in suicide.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if he and if he can't end our lives, then make it as miserable as possible and as hopeless as possible.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And but Jesus has come, that we might have life and life more abundantly, and that is that desire that we would have that abundant life.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And by abundant life, for me, and as I say to others, it's not, it's it's not about these material successes because you know that's all gonna pass away.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Really, uh that abundant life is that fulfillment, that that sense of mission and calling and purpose, that my life has value, that my life has purpose, that my life counted for something, that I um been here and am living to make a difference in others.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: That I really believe is the abundant life to which God calls us and wants for every single person.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I've spent with many a patient, um, sometimes even I can think of um patients that were also in our community living centers, which are like the um the skilled nursing facilities of the of the Department of Veteran Affairs.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: And just sometimes at, you know, end of life, people who may be in their 90s wondering, you know, does my life still have meaning?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Does my life still have purpose?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I can remember talking with with one um you know, with one individual and just saying, well, you know, you can still pray, and every single person that comes in, the cleaning person that comes in, the person that brings your food tray, you can say a prayer, you can bless them, um, you can give them a smile and make their day and pray for them because maybe no one is praying for them.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And how that sense has given people um a sense of purpose that, yeah, you know, I do have a purpose to get up today because I need to pray for everyone on this hospital unit.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um and to recognize that there are just ways that every life has value and every life has purpose, and that really comes back, the value comes to our lives when we find value in in giving of ourselves and our time and our care and our love to others.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is is part of the process.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um like if if you have uh like you mentioned, the person uh uh who is was it paraplegic or quadruple, whatever it is, um is there a process that you go through to help them discover some purpose or meaning?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have some questions that you ask or or do you you know how how does is it just different for every individual, or do you sort of go into that conversation with an approach?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, the first way in which I'll approach anyone is to see that individual as a beloved child of God, a beloved son or daughter of the Lord, and to want to uniquely hear their story.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone has a story to tell.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that is how I'll start with everyone of you know, tell me your story, which is just like you you sat down today and tell me your story, because out of each person's story, um, we see the the beautiful person um that that God created, and um to be able to listen for themes in their story.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so many of us can um can tell our stories you know from different perspectives.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if we're in a very dark place and a very place of feeling suicidal, um we're going to probably throughout telling our story come back to a lot of more of those those very, very negative, painful, hurtful moments.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um as people tell their stories, their stories may also change too, in terms of, you know, maybe they can look back, you know, sometimes and see blessings that in in some of those dark moments they they could not see.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: So in hearing those stories, um, many times, particularly if I think about the veterans, whether it be on our polytrauma unit or with women veterans who have experienced military sexual trauma and abuses and extreme loss, the loss of you know, the loss of who I am, the loss of my dignity, um, and listening for that.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times when we're when I'm hearing this story, I'm listening for loss of you know, who who does who does this person think he or she is?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um who do they feel you know has harmed them or has crippled them or has shamed them or has made them damaged freight, whether that comes through a traumatic brain injury, or whether that comes through another type of traumatic injury, or whether it is through sadly an abusive situation such as military sexual trauma where there's the extreme shame and guilt, the damage that's there.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: So listening to that loss.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then from that loss, allowing grief to come, because it really be many times before you can really emerge to a place of growth, um, which is called sometimes that post-traumatic growth, of you know, having gone through a very traumatic time of the post-traumatic stress disorder, to get to a period of post-traumatic growth, to go through those stages of grief.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the stages of grief are, in my own experience, and as we say, you know, not so neat, you know, where you're just, you know, anger may be here, and then you're feeling a sense of betrayal, which certainly is very real in abusive situations.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: And to just allow these a range of emotions that it's it's safe and it's you know okay to express these emotions, uh, and then to recognize that any one of us is more than our disease, we're more than our diagnoses, we're more than our failure, we're more than our disability.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: We are, at our core, a beloved child of God, a beloved son or daughter of God, and to recognize that as our identity.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and to keep coming back to that, because as you know, as a person may progress, then whether in in growth or in success, um, and I thought of this even as I would advance in my career, to recognize that at my core, I'm still a beloved daughter of God, and that my highest identity is to be a daughter of God.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: There is no greater title, you know, whether, you know, they can call me Dr.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Lessher or whatever, but my greatest core of my being is that I am a beloved daughter of God Almighty, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and keeping that at the core because as individuals move through trauma, then there can be that sense of, well, I will, my life will mean something and matter when I achieve this or when I prove this.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and that can be a destructive because if you're not progressing or moving along at that same type of quest, oh, I haven't you know achieved this nut, um, for any one of us, that can be um destructive.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: But to always keep at our core wherever we are in the gamut, whether we are in that stage of darkness or whether we're moving through a stage of grief or working through our traumas and our post-traumatic stress disorder, or seeking to become growing in a post-traumatic growth way.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wherever we are on that scale, coming back to at our core, we're a beloved daughter or a beloved son of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um that is so foundational that we know who we are, um knowing who we are in Christ in terms of going forward um with our lives.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I think one of the things that um I struggle with and and maybe some other people struggle with too is the idea, okay, I'm a beloved son of God, but then how come I'm dealing with all this?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this seems much more than I can bear.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I would never do this to my own son.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or I would never, you know, so so those kind of it it it's it's the ancient the problem of pain, right?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um this is this is not a new question and it's not a new issue that um has come up, you know, uh since ever since there was the first conversation of God probably about God, there was probably a conversation of something related to the problem of pain, the problem of evil.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when you're when you're working with someone who's who's suffering or in a dark place, um, you know, certainly theological treaties and theological high philosophies are not gonna help them, right?
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's so so how do you how do you approach that problem when when you're when you are working with someone who is in a lot of pain and feels like where is God and all this?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if God was real or if he's good or what you know, if he's love, all this stuff I've been told about, why could this happen?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what is you know, those sorts of questions I guess.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: Pointing people to um well, this I will say the psalms, or just the realization that their own anger and their own emotions are are okay to yell out and scream at God.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay to, you know, throw the temper tantrum, to scream at God, to be angry at God.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um God's big enough, God can take it, and to not try and pretend everything is okay.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that and and when we read the Psalms, you know, they're very raw, you know, the the Psalms of David and just, you know, everything from my Lord, my you know, God, how have you forsaken me, which Jesus quotes on the cross.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And to and then, or to read, you know, the book of Job as well.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you just think, okay, you know, all the losses and the and the griefs, and Job never really gets full answers, he never gets answers.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and and and David's again laments and and and then Jeremiah and the whole of the lamentations and encouraging people to write their own lament.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: I've um have done um individually as well as um in spirituality groups with veterans through uh with myself and others in the Department of Veteran Affairs who are dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder, moral injuries, and have actually done whole exercises on writing of laments, writing my own um song lament, my own dirge of, you know, just pouring out my heart and my soul of, you know, this is unfair.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um this is not right, you know, if if I were God, you know, this would not be.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that that's okay.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that that that that's okay.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Over over the years of working for the Department of Veteran Affairs, one of my precious things was something that I called veteran faith family fellowship.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was a worship service where we would, you know, you know, preach the scriptures, teach the scriptures, um, but would also have veteran testimonies, veteran sharing.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I would go to those services where you know there'd be veterans there that coming from the substance abuse treatment program or the polytrauma center or the spinal cord injury center.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I come out of those services and I'd be like, this is real church.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is real church.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because everyone that's there knows they're broken and we declared brokenness.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so many times then I've walked into other churches when I was with the Department of Veteran Affairs or now even in um pastor and preaching at the local churches where I'm now and there's a sadness that I feel in these churches because it's not real church.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I have to say some of the when I've felt real church the most is when I've been in those places of brokenness with individuals that are coming from treatment to those programs or in a prison setting where people know that they're broken and and it's okay to be broken versus to walk into a church where you have to look and be like, okay, I have to hold it all together and look like I've got you know the perfect spouse, the perfect kids, the perfect job, you know, and everything's perfect, perfect, perfect and it's not.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: And to me that pains my heart even more because there's a phoniness and a sense when people can't be real and it's not real church.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: That that's bad.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: So my I guess some a lot of my prayer is that is that you know that the body of Christ could just be more real with one another because in all actuality if we're really real with one another life isn't there and life you know sometimes just stinks and it's horrible and it's you know and we're all you know um yet in all of that there is yet the realization that the best is yet to come that you know this world is broken and you know Jesus never promised us you know that we would not have pain and sorrow instead just really the opposite.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: And yet through if we hold on to this faith and the trust that you know God is with us even in the midst of the brokenness um you know God is with us in the pits of despair um that is that is something that can help us get through um and know that we're not alone.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: We meet we all meet at the foot of the cross at that place of brokenness um and um and that is where we um connect at in the place of emotional brokenness.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I really appreciate that I think um in in cases where you have those kind of churches and that kind of often their preaching is is uh also discourages um honesty I guess um you know you you can become so you can become dishonest with yourself.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like you feel like you have to always be positive I have to always believe I have to have always have faith and um you know I I experienced some real difficulties when I was you know not allowing myself to to feel depression or anxiety or fear over over the outcomes or the lack of growth in my business or the you know whatever whatever difficulties my kids uh were facing or or you know whatever it was like feeling like I had to always be positive.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had to always um you know change the channel on negative thinking and all that stuff.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and it it really was a lot of negativity was building up um in my mind that needed to be processed or needed that my mind that myself needed to allow myself to think at least have those thoughts you know have the thoughts of depression or anxiety or worry or fear doesn't mean I'd act on them doesn't mean I would um you know stay in them but it was actually by allowing them to happen and just observing them acknowledging them that they were uh real feelings that I was feeling allowed them to process and move on fairly quickly you know and because I think I think we're designed and built to to want to thrive to want to succeed to want to to want to have that abundant life right that we're created for that and abundance doesn't mean money people can be very happy with pretty moderate incomes it's about attitude it's about love it's about connection it's about purpose like all these things we're talking about but but there is like even if it's implied or or unconscious a lot of narratives and a lot of ideas out there that you have to be positive all the time and you don't you you need to be authentic um and and I've heard people say well you you know not to criticize God or not to question God that's stupid because the problem is if you don't then you then you don't have a relationship with God then God is not somebody you can have a relationship with God is an entity that is lording over you and is demanding um things from you that you're not always actually capable of providing um where if you know in if the idea is to have a relationship with God you first have to have a honest relationship with yourself I believe before you can have an honest relationship with anybody else.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that means allowing yourself to feel the anger the sorrow the grief the depression the whatever you know and and let that allow that um because it's actually when you fight it or deny it that it becomes more powerful really and eventually it's gonna um have its say one way or the other and so um I you know your approach to to letting them know it's okay is is really powerful because often in the military community too we don't really allow people just to feel or think what they you know there's command you're you're expected to obey orders you're expected to to to you know act a certain way and be a certain way all the time and um um uh not not that people are expected to be robots but the but there is like you can't always be honest with everyone because they have rank over you or they have they're your supervisor or they have you know whatever it is so so you know a as you get more senior in rank you you know when you're a when you're a private when you're first in the military you have buddies you guys you say whatever you want talk about whatever you want but as you become higher in rank and more responsibility you may have seen this as a chaplain too there's an expectation that you behave a certain way you talk a certain way you act a certain way all the time and see and the higher up you get leadership the fewer like buddies and friends you have people you can let your hair down to be honest with because you're you're always supervising somebody you're always in the spotlight so to speak and so to give people allow them to have a voice and let them know it's okay to have that voice um and have those thoughts and feelings could be really freeing for people for sure.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I certainly um affirm that and just yes absolutely in in military culture and government culture and so much of our culture in general you know if you appear you know you've got it all together um we're gonna be able to advance but if you show a weakness if you show that you know you're struggling oh it's gonna affect my promotion it's gonna affect my rank and or I'm going to not get you know advanced um that in the way that I had desired um and then of course you know as you are climbing that ladder as you say you know then that sense of you know having to appear like you really do have it all together I will say there's been a sense though you know even you know I've been open very open with my story and my own struggles not sharing always specifics but certainly in certain positions that you hold you can't personally share all that's you know personally going on it's just not appropriate.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I've always valued um you know whether it be you know people in in senior leadership positions that say in a general way I have struggled I've been in those dark places and because no one of us you know um other other than Jesus is is perfect that and Jesus himself uh struggled with despair and even himself on the cross of crying out you know and feeling forsaken um so for any one of us you know to be act like oh well we never struggle or you know that's a denial of our humanity um so I there's there's an appropriate way you know certainly in you know in a public sense not always of going into a whole lot of details but of being real and being authentic um because when we're real and we're authentic um we we have those valley moments those dark moments um and and that is and that is part of the life that we live yeah that's really good well we're out of time it's been great having you on the show it's been great talking to you and the book again um so first of all your Heart That Sings for Jesus which is basically my story um and I I specifically tried to keep it um on the shorter side hoping that people would read it in its entirety figuring that if people want to talk more with me about it I'm always open and I'm an open book to have people talk about it but it's a heart that sings for Jesus yeah okay great and they can get that on like Amazon or Amazon or Barnes and Noble yeah okay awesome well thank you so much Dr.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: Lesher it's been great having you and uh it's been fun talking about these kind of things um most of my guests we're we're not talk talk getting too much into religion so I like that we're able to get into you know sort of more of a religious tone and um to to get into you know some real some real ideas that people can use about how to you know that that that are christians or or even some other religion but are struggling with with um what we all struggle with as humans which is you know pain and suffering and and this world is full of wonderfulness and beauty and grace and love and all that but it it's often hard to see when we're in a lot of pain and pain is like a regular visitor to our lives in in many ways especially as you get older so so so to have you know some ideas about how how to do that I hope people get the book um and uh you know I I wish you the best and and again thanks for being with us.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well it was uh a blessing to be with you and look forward to um ongoing connections and relationships so thank you sounds good