Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / STALKING IS NOT ROMANTIC: 4 women murdered by love-obsessed stalkers

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STALKING IS NOT ROMANTIC: 4 women murdered by love-obsessed stalkers · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius X Him Triumph
0:08
Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. After allegedly stalking her for months
0:13
Speaker 1: at her home, her workplace, and even while she was
0:15
Speaker 1: out on other dates, sixty two year old Vincent Verdi
0:18
Speaker 1: is accused of shooting the divorced mother of two in
0:21
Speaker 1: the stomach three shots, and I've seen the women's feet
0:24
Speaker 1: go up in the air and fall, and then I've
0:25
Speaker 1: seen him there and he put the gun on the
0:27
Speaker 1: NAIs chin and shot himself. She later died at a hospital.
0:31
Speaker 1: She broke up with him in July and got a
0:33
Speaker 1: restraining order October five, after he was arrested for stalking.
0:37
Speaker 1: He would be calling her all the time and she
0:39
Speaker 1: was like, you have to stop calling me. It is
0:42
Speaker 1: not a romantic It's not okay. It is a crime.
0:49
Speaker 1: Today we highlight the horrific murders of four beautiful women,
0:57
Speaker 1: all in the primes of their lives, from stalkers, bona
1:02
Speaker 1: fide stalkers. They all knew about their stalkers. They were
1:07
Speaker 1: vaguely aware one of them of their stalker. Everyone else
1:11
Speaker 1: in their life knew about their stalker. But now they're
1:14
Speaker 1: still dead. Why Mother's students, a worker at a church school.
1:21
Speaker 1: Why why did they have to die? I'm Nancy Grace.
1:25
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
1:28
Speaker 1: We're talking about today for very special women, all dead.
1:34
Speaker 1: One is Lariss saberis an eighteen year old girl, near
1:39
Speaker 1: the top of her class, already accepted at f s U.
1:44
Speaker 1: She begged, she begged for help. She got a protective order.
1:49
Speaker 1: She begged prosecutors to go forward with the prosecution, but
1:52
Speaker 1: prosecutors in Orange Osciola Jurisdiction said, oh, they didn't have
1:57
Speaker 1: enough evidence. This after over a thousand texts, tire slashed, car,
2:04
Speaker 1: window broken in her car, set on fire in the
2:08
Speaker 1: driver's seat, her driver's seat of her Chevy Cobalt. But
2:12
Speaker 1: yet they wouldn't prosecute. Well, she's dead now, she's dead,
2:16
Speaker 1: leaving behind a baby boy. Near the top of her class,
2:20
Speaker 1: already admitted to Florida State University to get her degree.
2:26
Speaker 1: She's dead. That will never happen. Larissa Barrows. And then
2:30
Speaker 1: there is Jania Nicole Gonzalez. She didn't really realize she
2:35
Speaker 1: had a stalker. She knew vaguely that this guy seemed
2:40
Speaker 1: to always be around, but they had never dated. They
2:43
Speaker 1: weren't really even friends. Then one day he showed up
2:46
Speaker 1: at a community studying spot there at North Lake College
2:51
Speaker 1: in Dallas and said, you know who I am, you
2:54
Speaker 1: know why I'm here, and shot her dead, shot her
2:57
Speaker 1: three times. Why the whole college put in lockdown at
3:03
Speaker 1: the death of this honor student. And then a Utah mom,
3:08
Speaker 1: Memory Rackley, a gorgeous young mom in her thirties, was
3:13
Speaker 1: walking her children home from school from elementary school and
3:16
Speaker 1: he started chasing her in his pickup. She flagged down
3:19
Speaker 1: to Good Samaritan. The Good Samaritan let her in the car,
3:21
Speaker 1: but that didn't end it. He ran the Good Samaritan
3:25
Speaker 1: with his pickup truck, got out and opened fire, killing
3:28
Speaker 1: her and her six year old son, Jason. Why all
3:34
Speaker 1: the signs were there? She had called police, She had
3:37
Speaker 1: begged why is she dead? And the fourth woman we're
3:42
Speaker 1: talking about Elizabeth Lee Herman, the mother of two. She
3:48
Speaker 1: was on her way from her apartment to her place
3:50
Speaker 1: of business on a bicycle. She worked at Grace Church School,
3:56
Speaker 1: and as she parked her bike to go into work,
3:59
Speaker 1: he unloaded a hell of bullets and she's dead. Straight
4:05
Speaker 1: out to Sean Walsh with The Dailymail, dot com. Sean,
4:09
Speaker 1: I want to go into the details on all four
4:13
Speaker 1: of these cases. Which one should we start with, Sean? Nancy,
4:16
Speaker 1: I think we should talk about Elizabeth Lee Herman because
4:19
Speaker 1: it actually occurred outside of my office. Tell me what happened,
4:22
Speaker 1: Sean Walsh. I think this is a horrendous story, Nancy.
4:28
Speaker 1: This was a match made in hell. Finally, four months
4:30
Speaker 1: Vincent Verdi stalked his ex Elizabeth Lee Herman, A beautiful mother.
4:35
Speaker 1: Wa wait a man at Sean Walsh dailymail dot com.
4:40
Speaker 1: Hold your horses, fellow, when you say X hello. Didn't
4:45
Speaker 1: they meet on match dot com like in July? They
4:49
Speaker 1: had been dating quote e quote for a couple of months.
4:52
Speaker 1: I would hardly refer to that as an ex. She
4:55
Speaker 1: had already gone to police about him. What did they
4:57
Speaker 1: date two months before she tried to get rid of him?
5:00
Speaker 1: I mean this guy showed up everywhere at work when
5:02
Speaker 1: should have a date with somebody else. I mean he
5:04
Speaker 1: was everywhere. I don't know if I call him an
5:06
Speaker 1: X I think, Nancy. I argue back that you could
5:09
Speaker 1: call him an X day. We're in a relationship for
5:11
Speaker 1: a brief period of time, so technically it's an ex.
5:14
Speaker 1: But I mean, not a good ex. This is like
5:15
Speaker 1: a behind me. Then every time I get to the
5:18
Speaker 1: movies and have a popcorn with somebody, they're my ex.
5:21
Speaker 1: All right, Sean, watch have it your way. I guess
5:23
Speaker 1: the Aussies are different. Go ahead, well, I tell people
5:25
Speaker 1: after you and I have had dinner that that's my ex.
5:28
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Um, I'm sure you and your wife and
5:32
Speaker 1: my husband will be very happy together. Go ahead, I agree,
5:36
Speaker 1: But look, this is this is just horrendous. I mean
5:39
Speaker 1: a little timeline of this. In July, she ends the brief,
5:42
Speaker 1: very brief relationship with Erdie. That same day, he begins
5:46
Speaker 1: repeatedly calling her, texting her, sends her emails. He's then
5:50
Speaker 1: setting her chocolates and flowers. The next month, he is
5:52
Speaker 1: showing up at her dentist appointment. He's calling her at work.
5:55
Speaker 1: He confronts her at the theater while she's on a date.
5:58
Speaker 1: He's waiting outside the school wish. She works it then
6:01
Speaker 1: wraps up and he stops her on the sidewalk on
6:03
Speaker 1: her way home from work. Um. Again he's sending her
6:06
Speaker 1: more emails. He's setting her another match dot Com message.
6:09
Speaker 1: He sends her more emails again. He then sends her
6:11
Speaker 1: a gift, certificates the three massages and a letter, and
6:14
Speaker 1: then it all culminates on November one, when he shoots
6:17
Speaker 1: her to death and asked to place in Manhattan at
6:20
Speaker 1: eight o'clock in the morning outside the school where she
6:23
Speaker 1: worked as a secretary. It does not get any worse
6:26
Speaker 1: than this, Nancy. Now, I was looking at the article
6:29
Speaker 1: you had on dailymail dot com and it showed her
6:32
Speaker 1: with her children, and I just can't even imagine. I mean,
6:37
Speaker 1: no offense to my husband, but I mean the times
6:41
Speaker 1: I have to go out of town and leave him here.
6:44
Speaker 1: It looks like burglars home invaders have ransacked the house
6:47
Speaker 1: when I get back, and I don't I'm sure the
6:50
Speaker 1: children are not claim I know that they have eaten
6:53
Speaker 1: nothing but left over Halloween candy, and everything's just gone
6:56
Speaker 1: to hell and handbasket. And I'm looking at those two children,
6:59
Speaker 1: and it's not just that. It's not just you know,
7:03
Speaker 1: veggies on the table and being bright and neat and
7:06
Speaker 1: clean on the way to schools. It's having your mom.
7:10
Speaker 1: It's having your mom. It's there's when I look at
7:15
Speaker 1: those children, it just broke my heart. Sean, watch what
7:18
Speaker 1: what more can you tell me. And here's the thing.
7:21
Speaker 1: She's a mother of two beautiful children, a single mother
7:24
Speaker 1: of two. So these kids have lost the parents they
7:27
Speaker 1: live with. It's horrendous. And from all accounts, she was
7:31
Speaker 1: a wonderful mum. She was a valued member of the
7:33
Speaker 1: school community. She'd been at the school for many, many years.
7:36
Speaker 1: And not only has she left behind her own kids,
7:39
Speaker 1: it's all those little kids that would see her every
7:41
Speaker 1: day when they turned up to school here in New
7:43
Speaker 1: York that now won't have her in their life as well.
7:46
Speaker 1: So the effects of this devastating crime was simply profound.
7:50
Speaker 1: Straight out to run real high profile lawyer joining me
7:55
Speaker 1: out of l a who specializes in restraining orders. Also
7:58
Speaker 1: with me, in addition to Sean Wall daily mail dot
8:01
Speaker 1: Com is Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, forensics expert, professor
8:06
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University. Renowned psychologists joining me out of Manhattan,
8:11
Speaker 1: Karen Stark and Wendy Patrick. California Prosecutor Ron Rail. I
8:16
Speaker 1: remember all the stalking cases that I prosecuted, and I
8:20
Speaker 1: would tell the women to their face, and I felt
8:22
Speaker 1: really bad about it. I'd say, you know that piece
8:25
Speaker 1: of paper you you brought today. It means nothing outside
8:28
Speaker 1: this courthouse, that piece of paper is not going to
8:32
Speaker 1: stop him. Nothing is gonna stop him unless he's behind bars.
8:35
Speaker 1: And that's my job. That's my job to put him
8:38
Speaker 1: behind bars. But let me warn you, he'll get out
8:42
Speaker 1: unless he is a convicted murderer. He will get parole
8:47
Speaker 1: and a lot quickly, a lot more quickly than you think.
8:50
Speaker 1: So I'm definitely gonna do my part, but you sadly
8:55
Speaker 1: have to do your part to protect yourself. Ron Rail,
8:59
Speaker 1: in some of these cases, I just don't get it.
9:02
Speaker 1: Why why have a bother to get a protective order?
9:04
Speaker 1: Ron Rail? Yeah, Actually, Nancy, Uh, I've got a little
9:09
Speaker 1: different perspective. I know people say, you know, it's it's
9:11
Speaker 1: not worth the paper has written on toilet paper, this
9:15
Speaker 1: and that. But let's look at some of the facts
9:17
Speaker 1: of for example, a couple of these cases um with
9:20
Speaker 1: like Elizabeth Herman, there was a protective order and I
9:23
Speaker 1: believe that was issued in connection with the criminal case.
9:27
Speaker 1: And so by the time that you know, you get
9:30
Speaker 1: to a criminal case, sometimes the d A is not
9:32
Speaker 1: gonna They're not gonna prosecute unless they can win this thing.
9:35
Speaker 1: Right that we can hear from your other gifts on that. No, no, no, no,
9:40
Speaker 1: I don't agree that a prosecutor does not prosecuted case
9:43
Speaker 1: unless they think they can win. Because I've got to
9:46
Speaker 1: be honest. I tried before juries over a hundred cases.
9:50
Speaker 1: I pled close to ten thousand cases, I guess over
9:53
Speaker 1: ten years, and tried many many more bench trials and
9:57
Speaker 1: unlimited I don't even know how many juvenile trials. I
10:00
Speaker 1: never thought I was gonna win, never once I went
10:03
Speaker 1: into it, because I knew they did it and they
10:05
Speaker 1: wouldn't play guilty. So what am I gonna do? Just go, Okay,
10:08
Speaker 1: you can go heck, no, you don't just try a
10:12
Speaker 1: case when you think you're gonna win it. You try
10:13
Speaker 1: because it's the right thing to do. Well, let's let's
10:16
Speaker 1: look at the d A is gonna file when they've
10:17
Speaker 1: got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But let's look
10:20
Speaker 1: into my arena, which is family law. It's a civil case.
10:24
Speaker 1: The burden of proof is a preponderance of the evidence.
10:26
Speaker 1: So let's take a look at Elizabeth Herman and I noticed,
10:30
Speaker 1: like in August when he showed up that her dentist appointment,
10:34
Speaker 1: he called her several times he confronted her while she
10:36
Speaker 1: was on a date. That's before the DA ever filed anything. Right, well,
10:40
Speaker 1: if if she would have known, um, if she went
10:43
Speaker 1: into family court and got a restraining order. Out here
10:45
Speaker 1: in California, you can get a restraining order if somebody
10:48
Speaker 1: looks at you cross side. So so if if you
10:50
Speaker 1: can show their disturbing your peace, or you know, you
10:53
Speaker 1: believe they're stalking you, and you convinced the judge chance
10:57
Speaker 1: that that's going on, then you get that restraining or
11:00
Speaker 1: it's in places in the police system. You it's a
11:02
Speaker 1: piece of paper, but you're nipping it early on. So
11:05
Speaker 1: he's in the system, and you start with all these
11:07
Speaker 1: times when people see him around and you take him in,
11:09
Speaker 1: you file the contempt. Even if the DA is not involved.
11:12
Speaker 1: You get it in the system early and and if
11:14
Speaker 1: he I think it's it's something that maybe could have occurred,
11:17
Speaker 1: And in this case, it's it's kind of all the
11:19
Speaker 1: way down the line when you've got the d A involved.
11:21
Speaker 1: Ron Reil, she did have She did have a protector
11:24
Speaker 1: order against him. He was arrested on October four for
11:28
Speaker 1: stalking her and she was given a protective order against him.
11:34
Speaker 1: He was also ordered to turn over any and all
11:38
Speaker 1: guns he may possess. You know, he shot her dead
11:41
Speaker 1: and his lawyers told the court he didn't have any guns. Okay,
11:45
Speaker 1: so there was an order in place that aside. I
11:49
Speaker 1: hear what you're saying, Ron Reel, and this is your expertise.
11:52
Speaker 1: You are saying that it's you only need a preponderance
11:56
Speaker 1: of evidence, which is a little it's like suggestion to
12:00
Speaker 1: the judge is a judge not a jury, that this
12:03
Speaker 1: is happening, and you can get a civil protective order
12:05
Speaker 1: against them, right, and that that can be done. It
12:08
Speaker 1: It happens all the time. People say that that that
12:11
Speaker 1: statutory scheme is abused too much because people are running
12:14
Speaker 1: in and getting restraining orders for for you know, five
12:17
Speaker 1: text messages. You know. It's so it's depend on that
12:19
Speaker 1: that day, who your judge is and how convincing you are.
12:22
Speaker 1: But it's available. It's a remedy. It's not criminal. You're
12:25
Speaker 1: not gonna go to jail unless you end up violating
12:27
Speaker 1: it somehow. But yeah, it's a remedy that people can
12:29
Speaker 1: take advantage of. And and uh, the public doesn't really
12:32
Speaker 1: know about it all the time. If you're not in
12:34
Speaker 1: the middle of a divorce or something, or if you're
12:37
Speaker 1: in a dating relationship, and by the way, it's just
12:39
Speaker 1: a dating relationship. You don't have to really uh, you
12:42
Speaker 1: go on a couple of dates and you qualify as
12:44
Speaker 1: the statutory scheme. You know so. But that is something
12:47
Speaker 1: unfortunately to Karen Stark psychologists joining me out of New York.
12:52
Speaker 1: Karen start, there's a misguided theory that they can flowers
12:56
Speaker 1: and the flowers and the chocolate and the chocolate and
12:58
Speaker 1: the showing up at the door and the showing up
13:00
Speaker 1: here and there and the begging and all that, that
13:02
Speaker 1: it's romantic. It's not romantic. It's a crime here. And
13:05
Speaker 1: how have we gotten that so confused? Well, because people
13:08
Speaker 1: have this idea that when somebody really loves you, if
13:11
Speaker 1: they do all these things, it's a it's a sign
13:14
Speaker 1: that it's a wonderful thing. You're being romanced. Um, here's
13:19
Speaker 1: your white knight. But the truth is these people are
13:22
Speaker 1: extremely disturbed, they're narcissistic. They have to control and it
13:27
Speaker 1: is not the fault of the victim, it's the fault
13:31
Speaker 1: of the stalker. They have usually have terrible low self
13:35
Speaker 1: esteem and they can't feel rejection. They don't learn from
13:39
Speaker 1: their experience. The worst problem here, Nancy, is that he
13:43
Speaker 1: wasn't He was jailed for seven days. It won't stop him.
13:48
Speaker 1: He thinks that he's above the law, that somehow he
13:52
Speaker 1: can convince this person that he loves them and get
13:55
Speaker 1: them to love him, and he must have their love.
13:58
Speaker 1: He can't live without it. That's what he believes. You know,
14:02
Speaker 1: they met on They met on match dot com, and
14:06
Speaker 1: they were not very far into their alleged relationship before
14:09
Speaker 1: she tried to break it off. Two Sean wash Deal
14:14
Speaker 1: Email dot com. Sean, this happened right outside your office.
14:18
Speaker 1: It didn't what do you recall it was? It was interesting.
14:21
Speaker 1: I was on my way into the office and one
14:22
Speaker 1: of my colleagues said to me, Oh, there's been some
14:24
Speaker 1: loud noises outside another police are here, and um, this
14:27
Speaker 1: poor lady was clicking in her city bike when she
14:31
Speaker 1: was confronted by him and shot in the stomach. And
14:34
Speaker 1: the people were running everywhere, kids were arriving at school
14:37
Speaker 1: because the school is across the street. It was simply
14:41
Speaker 1: horrific and something that no one could see. And then
14:44
Speaker 1: he shot himself. He didn't he didn't end up killing himself.
14:48
Speaker 1: He's still in the hospital recovering. He shot himself in
14:50
Speaker 1: the head and the bullet kind of went to the
14:52
Speaker 1: opposite direction that resulted in it not being a fatal shooting.
14:56
Speaker 1: So he's still recovering in the hospital. Nancy, So okay.
15:00
Speaker 1: He lives and she dies and her children are left
15:03
Speaker 1: two grow up without their mother. She was a single mom. Uh,
15:08
Speaker 1: she were there at Grace Church School. This is what
15:13
Speaker 1: I can tell you. You cannot ignore a stalker. It's
15:17
Speaker 1: a common reaction to ignore and hope it goes away.
15:19
Speaker 1: It doesn't work. Do not engage with your stalker, but
15:25
Speaker 1: be alert. Avoid contact no matter how many times they
15:29
Speaker 1: call our text don't keep writing back. Stop texting me,
15:33
Speaker 1: stop calling me. Do it once, do it twice, and
15:35
Speaker 1: then stop. Avoid contact. Enhance security, check your locks, alarms, cameras,
15:42
Speaker 1: change your route to work in school. The stories we're
15:46
Speaker 1: telling you about today, all four of them, is because
15:50
Speaker 1: the killers knew their love, objects, routes, and whereabouts. Tell
15:56
Speaker 1: people in your life about the threat. Document all the messages,
16:00
Speaker 1: the voice smails, the letters the cards that so called gifts.
16:04
Speaker 1: Document items that are damaged, if your car is keyed,
16:08
Speaker 1: if your ties are slashed, if your door is kicked in,
16:12
Speaker 1: trust your instincts. I'm telling you, when you get a feeling,
16:18
Speaker 1: it's not just a hunch, it's something that's bred over
16:21
Speaker 1: thousands of years within the human mind. It could be
16:25
Speaker 1: something you saw, something you smelled, something you heard, something
16:29
Speaker 1: you remember, a feeling. You call it a feeling. Oh no,
16:32
Speaker 1: it's a thousand things telling you be careful and develop
16:38
Speaker 1: a plan. When you are afraid and you're in danger,
16:42
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16:48
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16:52
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Speaker 1: We're talking about four cases that really touched my heart
19:50
Speaker 1: when I read about them. All four beautiful ladies that
19:54
Speaker 1: lay behind children, one of them a college sophomore sitting
20:00
Speaker 1: the communal study area when she was gunned down. With me,
20:03
Speaker 1: Ron Rail, Wendy Patrick, Karen Start, Joseph Scott Morgan, and
20:07
Speaker 1: Sean Walsh with Daily mail dot Com. I want to
20:10
Speaker 1: go out to Wendy Patrick, California veteran prosecutor. Wendy, is
20:16
Speaker 1: so great to have you with us, You know so
20:19
Speaker 1: often we see restraining orders turn in to felonies. Why, Wendy,
20:26
Speaker 1: Why in this day and age, are we still dealing
20:30
Speaker 1: with stalkers. Yeah, Nancy, it's such a great question, and
20:33
Speaker 1: thank you so much for tackling this topic. You know,
20:35
Speaker 1: stocking is invisible epidemic, as you know, because a lot
20:38
Speaker 1: of the time, even well meeting law enforcement officers, they
20:41
Speaker 1: want to see march, they want to see bruises. But
20:44
Speaker 1: what I always advise stocking victims, and I'm sure you
20:46
Speaker 1: do the same, is that invisible trauma is in and
20:49
Speaker 1: of itself corroborative evidence. Why because of the things that
20:53
Speaker 1: we've all just been talking about, getting restraining orders, telling
20:56
Speaker 1: a door person to look out for this particular person,
20:59
Speaker 1: telling friends and family about your fear. You know, absence
21:02
Speaker 1: makes the heart grow fonder. As we say, it's not
21:05
Speaker 1: out of sight, out of mind for stalkers. And some
21:07
Speaker 1: of these people aren't crazy for you, So there is
21:10
Speaker 1: no reasoning. I always like to say, Nancy, don't become
21:13
Speaker 1: a human slot machine, ignoring twenty nine phone calls only
21:17
Speaker 1: to pick up on the thirties in the hopes of
21:19
Speaker 1: being nice and talking the stalker out of his behavior,
21:22
Speaker 1: not gonna work, not gonna happen. And the way to
21:25
Speaker 1: answer your question we can continue to fight against this
21:28
Speaker 1: is to do exactly what this woman did and then
21:30
Speaker 1: follow that up with a police report. As soon as
21:32
Speaker 1: somebody violates in order, if there's a stock in case
21:35
Speaker 1: filed in most states, that's an aggrement that can add
21:37
Speaker 1: to the amount of time they serve when we catch
21:40
Speaker 1: him or her again. So it's a matter of being
21:43
Speaker 1: both proactive and reactive, and you know, and we just
21:46
Speaker 1: hope that with increased sensitivity and focus on this issue
21:49
Speaker 1: that we collectively can stamp it out. You know Windy Patrick,
21:53
Speaker 1: California prosecutor how domestic Domrail's domestic relation calls to nine
21:57
Speaker 1: one one were paid for many, many years, until one
22:01
Speaker 1: after the next, after the next, body started to pile
22:04
Speaker 1: up and suddenly cops were forcing typically the man out
22:07
Speaker 1: of the house, documenting everything, putting somebody in jail, and
22:11
Speaker 1: they got serious about it, just like teachers having to
22:13
Speaker 1: start reporting abuse on children. People got serious about it.
22:17
Speaker 1: I wonder what it's going to take before we realize
22:20
Speaker 1: that stalking turns into homicide or aggravated assault or or
22:24
Speaker 1: a great property damage. Then I think a standard protocol
22:28
Speaker 1: will be put into place by cops because in this case,
22:31
Speaker 1: she had a protective order. She saw him that morning
22:35
Speaker 1: in the area. She talked to her doorman about it.
22:38
Speaker 1: She was dead fifteen minutes later when she rode her
22:40
Speaker 1: bike to work. I want to talk about these three
22:44
Speaker 1: other cases. There's the Utah mom memory rack Ley. That
22:48
Speaker 1: case really got to me, Shaun Walsh, Daily Mail dot com.
22:52
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about it? I mean, this is
22:53
Speaker 1: just another one of these horrible, horrible cases. I mean,
22:59
Speaker 1: these women. Shouldn't you put in these positions, Nancy, where
23:01
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff occurs. I mean, I was, we
23:04
Speaker 1: were absolutely stundard Delia dot com with the situation behind
23:09
Speaker 1: her untimely death. Hold on, there are a couple of
23:12
Speaker 1: highlights before you get going, Shawn Walsh. Then I want
23:15
Speaker 1: to to to make very clear this Utah mom um
23:20
Speaker 1: was married, but for whatever reason, either they were separated
23:24
Speaker 1: or they're taking a break in their relationship. She had
23:27
Speaker 1: had a couple of meetings with and I'm not even
23:30
Speaker 1: gonna dignify it as a date because I don't know
23:33
Speaker 1: that it was a date with this bodybuilder. I mean,
23:36
Speaker 1: when you look at pictures of him, he's got this
23:38
Speaker 1: spray tan and he's like posing for all these selfies.
23:42
Speaker 1: He does have a body like a Greek god. If
23:45
Speaker 1: you're into that kind of thing. I always say, if
23:47
Speaker 1: my husband starts pumping iron, working out five hours a day,
23:51
Speaker 1: I'm getting a divorce because I want him at work,
23:54
Speaker 1: dial on that phone and punching that computer laptop. You know,
23:57
Speaker 1: get to work, get out of the gym. Okay to
24:00
Speaker 1: stay alive, that's all you gotta do. This guy was
24:03
Speaker 1: just totally pumped up. It made me wonder if he
24:05
Speaker 1: used steroids. So anyway, he meets his gorgeous young mom,
24:09
Speaker 1: Memory Rackley, there is no relationship, and he gets obsessed
24:15
Speaker 1: just before to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. Just before he
24:21
Speaker 1: comes and follows her as she's walking her two little
24:24
Speaker 1: boys home from elementary school. He put ominous postings on
24:29
Speaker 1: the web. One was a creepy clown. One was a
24:32
Speaker 1: little boy saying I've got a secret, but I can't
24:35
Speaker 1: tell you. Then he made this post about Memory saying,
24:38
Speaker 1: I met you six months ago and I'm so in
24:40
Speaker 1: love and I'm proud of you, but you keep me
24:43
Speaker 1: a secret. Why what do I have to do? To
24:46
Speaker 1: stop you from keeping me a secret. Well, I'd want
24:49
Speaker 1: to keep him a secret to for Pete's sake, especially,
24:51
Speaker 1: you know, if I'm trying to get back with my
24:53
Speaker 1: husband blah blah, and I've got this this bodybuilder thud
24:56
Speaker 1: chasing me around town. Wendy, all the signs were there.
24:59
Speaker 1: She call police when he wouldn't stop calling her, and
25:02
Speaker 1: nothing was done. Wendy Patrick. Yeah. The problem that nothing
25:05
Speaker 1: was done oftentimes is a sign of the times. And
25:08
Speaker 1: again it goes back to this belief that, gosh, if
25:11
Speaker 1: there are no signs and symptoms that we can photograph,
25:13
Speaker 1: when we can document forensically, we're going to concentrate on
25:16
Speaker 1: the murders. You know, law enforcement doesn't want to think
25:19
Speaker 1: that that's the way they operate, and they really don't.
25:21
Speaker 1: They do the best that they can. Sometimes sometimes it's
25:24
Speaker 1: a function of really trying to get the evidence they need,
25:27
Speaker 1: but sometimes they're unaware that the law does criminalize the
25:31
Speaker 1: kinds of things that we're talking about. We don't have
25:33
Speaker 1: to wait still somebody breaks intil somebody's got an injury,
25:35
Speaker 1: until somebody is shot in the stomach. In front of
25:37
Speaker 1: the Daily Mail in New York City, we don't have
25:40
Speaker 1: to wait for that. There is clearly enough. And Nancy,
25:43
Speaker 1: I think the fact that we're all discussing it today
25:45
Speaker 1: is the kind of thing we need to do more
25:47
Speaker 1: to let everybody know that there is help and that
25:50
Speaker 1: there are things law enforces will do, and that we
25:53
Speaker 1: are taking this far more seriously. I can't tell you
25:55
Speaker 1: how many Stocking cases I've prosecuted that jurors are thrilled
25:59
Speaker 1: that was somebody shook this seriously because the evidence is there,
26:03
Speaker 1: the evidence of calling of unwanted conducts some of these cases.
26:07
Speaker 1: I mean, these guys just a boldness to show up
26:08
Speaker 1: when the woman's on another on the date with another man.
26:12
Speaker 1: That kind of boldness unfortunately translates with how easy this
26:15
Speaker 1: protends to get done into deadly results. So I think
26:18
Speaker 1: what we can do collectively is what what we're doing
26:21
Speaker 1: right now is letting everybody know you don't need to
26:24
Speaker 1: wait till any kind of physical injury is inflicted to
26:27
Speaker 1: have a righteous talk in case that can be prosecuted
26:30
Speaker 1: and convicted in a court of law. You know another issue,
26:33
Speaker 1: and I'll give you amen to that one, Wendy Patrick.
26:36
Speaker 1: You know in this case of memory Rackley Shaun Walsh
26:41
Speaker 1: dailymail dot com. There were all the warning signs. He
26:44
Speaker 1: was posting these ominous threats on social media. He was
26:48
Speaker 1: calling and testing her NonStop. She called police to make
26:51
Speaker 1: him leave her alone, and within seventy two hours of
26:56
Speaker 1: that phone call, she was dead. Seawan Walsh. He went
27:00
Speaker 1: to the elementary school and waited, lay in wait for
27:04
Speaker 1: her to come out with her two little boys. When
27:06
Speaker 1: she saw him and flagged down a good Samaritan lady
27:10
Speaker 1: in a car and got in the car. He rammed
27:13
Speaker 1: the car with his pickup from behind, and the car stopped,
27:17
Speaker 1: and he jumped out and opened fire. He shot her dad,
27:22
Speaker 1: He shot her six year old little boy, Jay's dead.
27:26
Speaker 1: He shot an eleven year old girl that happened to
27:29
Speaker 1: be in the car with her mom, and everybody else
27:33
Speaker 1: ran for their lives. Can you imagine her eleven year
27:36
Speaker 1: old son running for his life and looking back and
27:39
Speaker 1: seeing his mom bleed out trying to trying to protect
27:42
Speaker 1: the six year old little boy. I mean, Sean, it
27:46
Speaker 1: made me physically sick when I read about that. You know, Sean,
27:50
Speaker 1: my children, my twins are ten. Can you imagine my
27:54
Speaker 1: little babies turning around and seeing me protect their twin
27:58
Speaker 1: as they had to run away from a bleeding out
28:01
Speaker 1: on the street, Sean Walsh And it's horrendous and I'll
28:04
Speaker 1: live with this for the rest of their lives. And
28:06
Speaker 1: I mean witnesses on the scene said that he was
28:08
Speaker 1: truly determined to get that car. He was out to
28:12
Speaker 1: get her. She had no hope and look at the
28:15
Speaker 1: tragic ending. I mean, it's it's what night Manthon made off.
28:19
Speaker 1: You know, Joseph's got Morgan death investigator forensics expert joining me,
28:24
Speaker 1: Joe Scott. I can't really stress it enough, your death
28:27
Speaker 1: scene investigator, how many just I want you to dig
28:33
Speaker 1: deep murder scenes and death says that you've evaluated have
28:39
Speaker 1: been a result of domestic relationship. To this day, remember
28:44
Speaker 1: the very first so called murder suicide and it's commonly
28:46
Speaker 1: what we referred to them as that I worked in
28:49
Speaker 1: New Orleans back in the early eighties and still to
28:51
Speaker 1: this day, I remember the last one I've worked in
28:53
Speaker 1: Atlanta all those years later in the two thousand's before
28:56
Speaker 1: I went into academia. Uh, it's a key to a
29:00
Speaker 1: dog chasing its tail in the yard. Nothing never gets accomplished. Uh,
29:04
Speaker 1: there's a disconnect with reality I found, Uh, people do
29:07
Speaker 1: not believe this is going to happen to them. I
29:10
Speaker 1: stood over the bodies of countless people, not only at
29:13
Speaker 1: the scene, but also in the morgue. And when you're
29:15
Speaker 1: sitting there and you're looking at these people, many of
29:18
Speaker 1: them you know, in the flower of their youth. Uh,
29:22
Speaker 1: and they've lived out this fantasy world, both the perpetrator
29:26
Speaker 1: and maybe to a certain extent of victims where they
29:28
Speaker 1: don't believe that this bad thing can happen to them
29:30
Speaker 1: and they're struck in the face. I think that with
29:33
Speaker 1: the reality of it and the general public at large
29:36
Speaker 1: and around college students now that engage in this behavior
29:38
Speaker 1: where we have stocking that occurs uh, you know uh
29:42
Speaker 1: many times, and and and young women are are just
29:45
Speaker 1: oblivious to it. Many times they don't realize the danger
29:47
Speaker 1: that they put themselves in. I found it very interesting
29:50
Speaker 1: a moment ago you were talking to caring about this
29:52
Speaker 1: this fellow showing up with chocolates and flowers, And didn't
29:55
Speaker 1: that a real dichotomy when you think that, yeah, he
29:58
Speaker 1: shows up with flowers, He shows up with chocolates, and
30:01
Speaker 1: then the next thing he shows up with is a firearm.
30:03
Speaker 1: Um and that's the way it goes down. Many times
30:06
Speaker 1: where this happens, they reach out to these people, they
30:10
Speaker 1: try to get their attention to service their own purposes,
30:13
Speaker 1: and when they can't have them, it's like some petulant
30:15
Speaker 1: child that finally throws a bit, kills this poor innocent
30:18
Speaker 1: person and then attempts to take their life. Many times
30:21
Speaker 1: they succeed, many times they fail, and many times in
30:23
Speaker 1: this particular case, you've got just innocent Bostanders that were
30:26
Speaker 1: there trying to help these people, and now these children
30:29
Speaker 1: can be scarred for life. It's one child that's in
30:31
Speaker 1: this word. It's horrible. They're covered with blood and just
30:33
Speaker 1: from this good samaritan just stopping to try to help
30:35
Speaker 1: this for warm Let me ask you, Ron rail L,
30:39
Speaker 1: a lawyer, high profile lawyer specializing in restraining orders. I
30:44
Speaker 1: believe that women have too much confidence in restraining orders.
30:49
Speaker 1: And I say that because I've handled so many cases
30:53
Speaker 1: where women were chased and shot and tortured and beaten
30:58
Speaker 1: that had restraining orders. In addition to prosecuting for ten years,
31:03
Speaker 1: I've worked as a volunteer in an Atlanta Better Women's
31:06
Speaker 1: Center for nine years at night, and I heard it
31:09
Speaker 1: over and over and over, and one of our our
31:14
Speaker 1: specialties was helping women get restraining orders. And they think
31:20
Speaker 1: they're safe, but ron real, I mean, in my experience,
31:22
Speaker 1: they're not safe. Well, if somebody has your number and
31:27
Speaker 1: they're determined to get you, we know what can happen.
31:30
Speaker 1: All I am saying is you want to do anything,
31:33
Speaker 1: you every every uh, every bit of ammunition that you
31:37
Speaker 1: have to try to stop this person from coming after you.
31:40
Speaker 1: And so if there's probably not a statistic about how
31:43
Speaker 1: many uh, violent crimes are averted because somebody had a
31:46
Speaker 1: restraining order, and the earlier you get him into the system,
31:49
Speaker 1: the better. And that's why I'm a big proponent before
31:51
Speaker 1: you even get to the district attorney, go in yourself
31:54
Speaker 1: to family court and get a restraining order. Somebody sends
31:57
Speaker 1: you text messages five days in a row, you're onto something.
32:02
Speaker 1: Thed A may or may not prosecute, they may not
32:04
Speaker 1: file the case. Go file one yourself and and get
32:07
Speaker 1: a restraining order. And when you have them in the
32:09
Speaker 1: system earlier on, I think that you're stacking yards in
32:12
Speaker 1: your favor. Yeah. Of course, if the person who wants you,
32:15
Speaker 1: they're gonna get you, right if they really early are determined.
32:18
Speaker 1: Of course it's a problem, but how many how many
32:20
Speaker 1: of these crimes were reverted because of this and the
32:22
Speaker 1: people in the system getting a restraining order. Then somebody
32:25
Speaker 1: violates restraining order before the das even involved. Taking the
32:27
Speaker 1: court yourself, get a contempt order, try to get the judge,
32:30
Speaker 1: the family judge, to throw him in jail. There's things
32:32
Speaker 1: that you can do, uh that you want to try
32:34
Speaker 1: to use all available options to protect yourself, and so
32:38
Speaker 1: why not. I don't think there's a reason not too well,
32:40
Speaker 1: you know another thing, Ron real, I'm painting a pretty
32:42
Speaker 1: bleak picture, but the reality is Wendy Patrick, California Prosecutor.
32:46
Speaker 1: I'm looking at it from a different perspective because every
32:49
Speaker 1: woman I came in touch with was either dead, or
32:52
Speaker 1: she was an aggravated assault shooting, bating victim, or she
32:55
Speaker 1: was in a batter women's shelter. She's already been beaten
32:58
Speaker 1: to smitherings. So my world experiences the very worst had
33:02
Speaker 1: already happened. And as I'm listening to Ron rail talk,
33:06
Speaker 1: that's probably just a percentage of all the thousands of
33:10
Speaker 1: women that get restraining orders every day. And I'm just
33:15
Speaker 1: saying this minuscule percentage that suffered the worst. So I
33:21
Speaker 1: guess what I'm trying to say, Wendy Patrick is Ron
33:23
Speaker 1: Real may have a very good point. P Share does.
33:25
Speaker 1: And you know, both Ron and Sewan have talked about this, Nancy,
33:27
Speaker 1: as have you. There there's an additional components here. There
33:31
Speaker 1: are many women and men who are afraid to run
33:34
Speaker 1: out and get restraining orders. They should, Gosh, they all should,
33:37
Speaker 1: but they don't want to bring drama to the workplace.
33:39
Speaker 1: They're not really sure if that's stalking because they haven't
33:42
Speaker 1: they don't know what the textable law says. They're not
33:44
Speaker 1: really sure whether to take it seriously or whether getting
33:46
Speaker 1: restraining order will make the stalker more dangerous and angrier. Ron,
33:50
Speaker 1: I'm sure you can relate to this. We've all seen
33:52
Speaker 1: cases where, sadly that happens, not all of them. But
33:55
Speaker 1: that's a real fear that many victims have, is they're
33:57
Speaker 1: afraid that simply the act of going and getting a
34:00
Speaker 1: training order is going to make it that much worse.
34:02
Speaker 1: They mistakenly believe, Nancy, that they can take care of
34:05
Speaker 1: it on their own, which is the huge mistake a
34:07
Speaker 1: lot of these people make. One of the issues you
34:09
Speaker 1: brought up earlier, though, is one of the other ways
34:11
Speaker 1: which women and men can protect themselves. You mentioned that
34:14
Speaker 1: sometimes I like to say this is called hiding in
34:16
Speaker 1: plain sight. You keep saying the same person at the
34:18
Speaker 1: grocery store or the gas station, somebody that maybe is
34:21
Speaker 1: an acquaintance of yours. Maybe you never went out with
34:24
Speaker 1: him one so according to show, and they never become
34:25
Speaker 1: an X, but they're just around a little too close
34:29
Speaker 1: for comfort. That in and of itself should be a
34:31
Speaker 1: red flag, something on the radar, something to keep an
34:33
Speaker 1: eye on. May not justify a restraining order, is wrong,
34:35
Speaker 1: would tell you, but it's still something that we need
34:38
Speaker 1: to protect ourselves from because that's the way it starts,
34:42
Speaker 1: this unhealthy obsession that is often very visible to some
34:45
Speaker 1: of these victims when they keep seeing the same person
34:48
Speaker 1: turn it up again and against me run rail high
34:50
Speaker 1: profile l a lawyer specializing in restraining orders, California prosecutor
34:54
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, renowned New York psychologist here and Stark forensics
34:59
Speaker 1: expert professor at Jacksonville State Joseph Scott Morgan, and Daily
35:05
Speaker 1: mail dot COM's Sean Walsh returning to tow other stories
35:11
Speaker 1: and they are about an eighteen year old girl at
35:15
Speaker 1: a Point Ciana, Florida, Larissa Barrows l A R I
35:22
Speaker 1: S s A Barrows B brother a R O S killed,
35:28
Speaker 1: gunned down. Gosh. I just hate to even say. It
35:34
Speaker 1: was near the top of her class and already accepted
35:37
Speaker 1: to f s U. And the case of Genera Nicole Gonzalez.
35:45
Speaker 1: Genera Nicole Gonzalez shot dead at north Lake College in Dallas, Texas,
35:53
Speaker 1: simply sitting there studying in a community studying area. The
36:00
Speaker 1: those two cases, the victims dead because of stalkers. I
36:05
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Speaker 1: and go to the two stories I mentioned first. Out
38:02
Speaker 1: to Sean Walsh with daily mail dot com regarding the
38:06
Speaker 1: facts on Genera Nicole Gonzalez. Jania Nicole Gonzalez just twenty
38:13
Speaker 1: years old when she is shot three times, dies immediately
38:18
Speaker 1: in a common study area at North Lake College in Dallas, Texas.
38:22
Speaker 1: And here is the kicker. She didn't even know she
38:26
Speaker 1: had a stalker. Sean Walsh with me daily mail dot com.
38:30
Speaker 1: What happened with Jania Nicole Gonzalez. This case is truly
38:34
Speaker 1: tragic because this is a girl that was killed by
38:37
Speaker 1: someone she was not in a relationship with and did
38:40
Speaker 1: not want a relationship with um. So her family claims
38:44
Speaker 1: that the guy that killed her was obsessed with her,
38:46
Speaker 1: even though the two were never in a relationship. In fact,
38:49
Speaker 1: she was dating someone else, so he became completely obsessed
38:52
Speaker 1: and he killed her on campus. It's truly chilling. You
38:56
Speaker 1: know you're right about that, Agan. The torres a twenty
39:02
Speaker 1: year old guy. It's her killer. She was sitting there
39:06
Speaker 1: in the study area studying when he comes in with
39:09
Speaker 1: a gun. Shouts out, you know who I am and
39:12
Speaker 1: why I'm here? Translation, you have no idea who I
39:16
Speaker 1: am or why I'm here. And I don't think she
39:19
Speaker 1: even realized what was happening. If you look at her picture,
39:23
Speaker 1: she looks like she's about fourteen years old. And I
39:26
Speaker 1: saw a picture of her father just crying about his
39:31
Speaker 1: little girl. She was a kinesiology student set to graduate
39:35
Speaker 1: in just a couple of weeks with great grades. She
39:39
Speaker 1: had never even dated this guy before. Karen Stark, psychologist
39:44
Speaker 1: out of New York, how does that happen well in
39:46
Speaker 1: this cage too. He believes that unless she loves him
39:50
Speaker 1: and unless she responds to him, that he's not worth while.
39:54
Speaker 1: And the saddest thing Nancy is that I don't think
39:57
Speaker 1: she understood that the swis something that's threatening. I think
40:01
Speaker 1: that's what happens all the time with women. Either they
40:04
Speaker 1: are flattered by it or they don't take it seriously enough.
40:09
Speaker 1: And in a public space like that, if you're being stoked,
40:13
Speaker 1: you really have to be careful to look around you
40:16
Speaker 1: to see if anyone is familiar. You know, that's quite
40:19
Speaker 1: the dichotomy, though, to Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert you say,
40:23
Speaker 1: try not to be isolated. But here she is in
40:25
Speaker 1: a public place and he still gets her in guns.
40:28
Speaker 1: Here down in a communal study area at the college. Nancy,
40:31
Speaker 1: I'm a university professor, and it's not just the communal
40:34
Speaker 1: study area. It is the nature of an academic environment
40:38
Speaker 1: where you have this campus community. It's there. And keep
40:41
Speaker 1: in mind, no matter what the admissions office does at
40:44
Speaker 1: any university, you can't vet where people come from. You
40:46
Speaker 1: don't know what their psychological profile is. So you get
40:49
Speaker 1: a group of people together and they're just kind of
40:52
Speaker 1: mashed in together. You develop this relationship, this community relationship.
40:55
Speaker 1: You don't know the background of anybody there. I don't
40:57
Speaker 1: know what this fellow's background was, but I do know
41:00
Speaker 1: he targeted this young girl and ended her life very
41:04
Speaker 1: tragically in an environment that most of us just as
41:07
Speaker 1: soon and just as soon it's going to be very,
41:09
Speaker 1: very safe and protected, and certainly when we sent our
41:11
Speaker 1: kids off to college, we expect them to be safe
41:14
Speaker 1: and protected. This leads me to Shaun Walsh dailymail dot
41:18
Speaker 1: com the case of Larissa Barrows, and for some reason,
41:23
Speaker 1: in this case, I just can't get her off of
41:26
Speaker 1: my mind. Larissa had overcome so much. She was an
41:32
Speaker 1: eighteen year old girl and she was a teen mom,
41:36
Speaker 1: but that didn't stop her. She was near the top
41:39
Speaker 1: of her class and set to graduate from Liberty High
41:42
Speaker 1: School in two weeks. Based on her stellar grades. She
41:47
Speaker 1: had already been accepted into f s U Florida State University,
41:52
Speaker 1: which is inundated with applications every year. She was already
41:58
Speaker 1: accepted two weeks to graduate should the killer, Kai Williams,
42:04
Speaker 1: had already been in jail for stalking her. He had
42:08
Speaker 1: already been ordered to stay away from Larissa Barrows. He
42:13
Speaker 1: had slashed her tires, he had broken into her window.
42:19
Speaker 1: He that day that had already sent over one thousand texts.
42:25
Speaker 1: He had gone to her car, broken in the window again,
42:29
Speaker 1: and set her seat, the driver's seat of her Chevy Cobalt,
42:33
Speaker 1: on fire, which such psychologically is very telling that he
42:37
Speaker 1: goes to where she sits in the car and sets
42:39
Speaker 1: the car on fire. He was arrested for that, but
42:44
Speaker 1: prosecutors dropped the case, claiming they didn't have enough evidence.
42:50
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? An Orange Osciola jurisdiction? And now
42:56
Speaker 1: she's dead, How does that prosecutor look in the mirror?
43:03
Speaker 1: Every day and say, well, I didn't take it to
43:07
Speaker 1: child because I didn't have enough evidence. What with all
43:11
Speaker 1: that track record, who else do you think set her
43:14
Speaker 1: car on fire in the driver's seat. I mean, think
43:17
Speaker 1: about it. It's called circumstantial evidence. For Pete's sake, and
43:20
Speaker 1: even if you don't win, at least go down and glory.
43:24
Speaker 1: At least try go down guns a blazing, because this
43:27
Speaker 1: girl might still be alive. For Pete's sake. Larissa Barros
43:31
Speaker 1: is dead and I have listened to part of her
43:34
Speaker 1: nine one one call when she's saying he's here. He's
43:38
Speaker 1: trying to get in. I'm afraid he's gonna kill me
43:41
Speaker 1: and my little boy. He got in, Shawan Walsh, He
43:44
Speaker 1: got in, all right, didn't he? Nancy. These are the
43:46
Speaker 1: most chilling tapes you will ever hear. She's on the
43:51
Speaker 1: phone pleading my ex boyfriend's breaking into the house. I
43:53
Speaker 1: have an injunction against him. Please send the police quick
43:56
Speaker 1: they can. She can then be hood screaming back up,
43:58
Speaker 1: back up, what you want, and then there's a man's
44:01
Speaker 1: voice in the background, yelling and struggling with her. The
44:04
Speaker 1: operator tries to get her back on the phone, but
44:06
Speaker 1: she never returns to the line, um he kills her.
44:10
Speaker 1: It's absolutely terrible, and authorities have said that she did
44:13
Speaker 1: everything she possibly could in the two years leading up
44:16
Speaker 1: to it to stay away from this guy, to let
44:19
Speaker 1: the police know that there was an issue, and so
44:21
Speaker 1: it astounds me how prosecutors could not find a reason
44:24
Speaker 1: to prosecute this guy. There was more than enough evidence,
44:27
Speaker 1: you know, when you are describing that nine one one call,
44:31
Speaker 1: that's just what we were hearing that time. She had
44:34
Speaker 1: called time one one so many times, so many times.
44:40
Speaker 1: What what went wrong? Why wasn't he in jails on
44:43
Speaker 1: I mean, I been Nancy. I have absolutely no idea.
44:46
Speaker 1: I'm stumped with this one, because you would think, Nancy,
44:48
Speaker 1: you're a former prosecutor. You would think that this guy
44:51
Speaker 1: would have been behind bars and not have been able
44:53
Speaker 1: to have been out to kill this beautiful eighteen year
44:56
Speaker 1: old Nancy. She was two weeks from graduating, two weeks
44:59
Speaker 1: and when one word the emergency, I need, I need
45:02
Speaker 1: a police m my sisters. Scar just being to the house,
45:06
Speaker 1: and I mean was outside and I pulled and he
45:10
Speaker 1: pulled running from of me, and he looked like you
45:11
Speaker 1: were pulling a gun flag and hit him and we
45:16
Speaker 1: I need a police a plea. Oh, I could think,
45:19
Speaker 1: I see one moment, please coming for one hall? What
45:27
Speaker 1: is the three? What is set hollow? You know, justice
45:42
Speaker 1: got Morgan death Investigator. By the time you and I
45:45
Speaker 1: get a case like this, the victim is buried, the
45:48
Speaker 1: funeral is over, and we're trying to piece together all
45:52
Speaker 1: the pieces to seek justice. But when I this happened
45:57
Speaker 1: to me in court every single time, when I hear
46:01
Speaker 1: the nive on one call, it feels like it's happening
46:05
Speaker 1: at that moment, and I just want more than anything
46:08
Speaker 1: to try to fix it. Joe Scott, moving forward, you
46:12
Speaker 1: have to look at this and say, is this young
46:15
Speaker 1: girl's life going to have been wasted as a result
46:19
Speaker 1: of this or is there a lesson that can be
46:21
Speaker 1: learned moving forward? And I think that there is there
46:26
Speaker 1: lessons on on the side of both the psychological side
46:29
Speaker 1: of the house, to a certain degree of the forensic side,
46:32
Speaker 1: but most certainly the prosecutorial side. And then of course
46:35
Speaker 1: we come to the general public awareness. I think that
46:38
Speaker 1: that you've you've put this out there and this is
46:41
Speaker 1: this is key to this because this is real, Nancy.
46:43
Speaker 1: This is not something that's it's not a fantasy. We
46:46
Speaker 1: you and I both stood over bodies. We've looked at
46:49
Speaker 1: at the wreckage. I'm thinking about this poor child, you know,
46:53
Speaker 1: and and she was a child, uh that has has
46:57
Speaker 1: has died now at the hands of this of this person.
47:00
Speaker 1: And and look look at the wreckage that's left behind
47:03
Speaker 1: by her, her child that that is now left motherless
47:07
Speaker 1: and fatherless as a result of this behavior. And we
47:11
Speaker 1: have to learn from this moving forward. This has been
47:13
Speaker 1: a cycle that's going on forever and ever and ever
47:16
Speaker 1: and ever. It seems like it just never stops. It
47:19
Speaker 1: never stops. Two. Karen Stark, Karen, tell me your advice.
47:26
Speaker 1: The advice is that women need to end men. If
47:30
Speaker 1: this happens to be the other way around, and it
47:34
Speaker 1: sometimes does occur, you have to be vigilant to do
47:38
Speaker 1: the best you can. Not to say that responsibility is
47:41
Speaker 1: on the victim, but if you believe that someone is excessive,
47:46
Speaker 1: if they seem obsessive, which means that they are constantly calling,
47:51
Speaker 1: constantly texting, not leaving you alone, sending you gifts that
47:56
Speaker 1: you really have not asked for a wanted, then you
47:59
Speaker 1: need to know that this is not a healthy thing,
48:02
Speaker 1: That something is really wrong. You have to tell everyone
48:05
Speaker 1: around you. You have to notify where you work, the
48:09
Speaker 1: people where you work not be embarrassed because you're protecting yourself.
48:13
Speaker 1: You need to let your relatives know. You need to
48:16
Speaker 1: watch who is around you. If you're in a public space.
48:20
Speaker 1: You must change the root of how you go to
48:23
Speaker 1: work and not be consistent in any of your behaviors
48:27
Speaker 1: so that this person can't follow you. You must be very,
48:33
Speaker 1: very cautious. And the important thing is that you're talking
48:36
Speaker 1: about it now, Nancy, so people can be aware. It
48:40
Speaker 1: is not a good thing. It is not that someone
48:42
Speaker 1: is loving you and caring too much. It's dangerous. I
48:46
Speaker 1: agree with Karen Stark and with Ron Rail, with just
48:50
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Shawn Wals and Wendy Patrick. It is not romantic.
48:55
Speaker 1: It is not okay. It is a crime. Number one,
48:59
Speaker 1: do not ignore a stalker. That's a common reaction. If
49:04
Speaker 1: you don't think about it, it'll go away. That doesn't work.
49:08
Speaker 1: In fact, it gets worse. To be alert. Three avoid contact.
49:15
Speaker 1: You must four enhanced security locks, alarms, cameras, change your
49:21
Speaker 1: route to work or school. Five. Inform people in your
49:24
Speaker 1: life about the threat, have them on alert. Six Save
49:28
Speaker 1: document all messages, voicemails, letters, cards, gifts. Seven photo document
49:34
Speaker 1: all items damaged, if your car is keyed, if your
49:37
Speaker 1: ties are slashed, if your door is kicked in. Eight
49:41
Speaker 1: Trust your instincts. Nine develop a safety plan. Listen to me,
49:48
Speaker 1: Listen to all of us. We know Nancy Grace crime stories.
49:53
Speaker 1: Signing off, goodbye friend,