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Traditionalism & Perennialism with Symbolic Studies · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen? What? What's gonna happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Occult Rejects. Today we've got a returning guest.
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  Speaker 1: He's been on plenty of times when we have done
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: amazing work together and it's been a minute. He's been
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  Speaker 1: a very busy man, and so have I. But we
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: finally were able to get together again. And before we
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  Speaker 1: introduce the guest, let me introduce the Headless Giant. What
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: is going on?
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  Speaker 3: Sir?
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  Speaker 1: How are you?
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  Speaker 3: How's it going? You can find me on Twitter, Instagram
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: and x You can look up the Headless Giant. I'll
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: be there and I keep pumping out the videos. On
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  Speaker 3: Mondays is Alchemy Mondays. Tuesdays we've got seven seven seven
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  Speaker 3: with nickcare and then Thursday we've got Headless's Magical mail
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: Bag where you can send you are a cult slash,
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: esoteric slash, interesting dream stories to my email at Headless
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: Giant Podcast at gmail dot com and we will read
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: those on the air for you. And also I've got
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: on Sundays the Trialogues with Ethan and Ricardo, so check
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  Speaker 3: that out as well. Thank you very much, Thank you, sir.
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate you joining us, and we got the man himself,
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  Speaker 1: Mario from Symbolic Studies. If you don't happen to know
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  Speaker 1: who he is yet, Mario, please let everybody know what
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  Speaker 1: your deal is where they can find all your amazing work.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, man, So you guys can find me
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  Speaker 2: at Symbolic Studies dot com. From there you can check
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  Speaker 2: out my Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, all the things substack. I
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  Speaker 2: have a podcast, the Symbolic Studies Podcast, so we're putting
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  Speaker 2: out one episode a month on each sign during the
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  Speaker 2: sign itself. That's actually been probably one of the cooler
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  Speaker 2: things that I've started over the last year or so.
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  Speaker 2: People are really resonating with it, and I think one
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  Speaker 2: of the awesome things about it is that I have
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  Speaker 2: other people's voicemails, so people are calling in leaving voicemails.
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  Speaker 2: I hand select a few people to leave longer voicemails,
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  Speaker 2: like ten fifteen minutes long, and it's been awesome. It's
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  Speaker 2: been a huge deep dive into every single sign, so
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  Speaker 2: you're hearing from people you know all around the world basically,
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  Speaker 2: and you can check that out on Spotify and you
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  Speaker 2: know all the podcast hosting places and then you know
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  Speaker 2: basically what I do is I like to post about
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  Speaker 2: each sign during the sign itself, and so I've been
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  Speaker 2: doing that for about five years now, so I have
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  Speaker 2: like five years worth of content that I've kind of
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  Speaker 2: built up. And so for each sign, you're kind of
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  Speaker 2: getting a deep dive on each one. And I'm not
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  Speaker 2: so much doing natal chart astrology, right, so I'm not
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  Speaker 2: a forecaster. I'm not a predictive astrologer. I'm really getting
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  Speaker 2: into the symbolism of each sign. So that tickles your fancy.
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  Speaker 2: Definitely check out my shorts Nick. You were talking about
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  Speaker 2: that before my live and I do think that's kind
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  Speaker 2: of like my best work are my short videos about
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  Speaker 2: the signs.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I see your three ring binder shelf because You've
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  Speaker 3: got all these thriving binders, so I'm sure you've got
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  Speaker 3: the whole of them.
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  Speaker 4: I do.
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  Speaker 2: I do, yeah, exactly. So at some point I want
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  Speaker 2: to spend more time kind of sharing what's in there,
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  Speaker 2: because I've got illustrations and random notes. I've got one
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  Speaker 2: on O Fucus. I don't really talk about O Fucus
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  Speaker 2: that much, but A Fucus is super interesting. So you know,
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  Speaker 2: there's definitely stuff to unpack with all that for sure.
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  Speaker 1: Now that was that's even like a thing I always
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  Speaker 1: just to say about you, uh, especially what you know,
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  Speaker 1: I used to like having you off a taro. I
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  Speaker 1: would say, you look at it as like a traditional taro.
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  Speaker 1: You're very heavily into the symbolism, like really, yeah, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you look at it in different ways and I've normally
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  Speaker 1: dealt with scenes, so it doesn't work. And I highly
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  Speaker 1: suggested shorts, like he said, his shorts are amazing.
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  Speaker 2: They're really good. Thanks man, I appreciate that. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: you know, what you just said about mine interpretation with
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  Speaker 2: the tarot weaves in perfectly with our topic today. And
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  Speaker 2: it has to do with the fact that basically, for me,
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  Speaker 2: I started off wanting to know more about symbolism. I
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  Speaker 2: would say probably like two thousand and eight or so
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  Speaker 2: is when I bought my first symbolic dictionary, and from
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  Speaker 2: there I started buying more and more and more. So
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  Speaker 2: I have like dozens of symbolic reference books, and I
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  Speaker 2: get off on finding random obscure ones. I've paid a
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  Speaker 2: decent amount of money for some of them, people have
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  Speaker 2: sent me others, so I've gotten to learn kind of
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  Speaker 2: like the lay of the land with symbolists and the
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  Speaker 2: study of symbolism, and so a lot of my information
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  Speaker 2: with my videos and with the tarot and what we've
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  Speaker 2: talked about, you know, for hours astrology and things like that,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of it's coming actually, I would say probably
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  Speaker 2: the vast, fast, vast majority of it is coming from
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  Speaker 2: my symbolic reference library. And you're just going to find
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  Speaker 2: different work. You're going to find different information. And I
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  Speaker 2: love older information too, and so the older the better,
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  Speaker 2: you know, in my opinion, if I can read it.
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  Speaker 2: And so it's kind of shaped my perspective on how
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  Speaker 2: I see symbolism, and a lot of the different things
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  Speaker 2: that I've kind of put out there come directly from
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  Speaker 2: these books. And I'll say, you know, one of the
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  Speaker 2: books that came across my radar and it took me
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  Speaker 2: a while to really appreciate it and really really understand
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  Speaker 2: that it's one of the best ones out there is
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: actually slide number one with the with the slides that
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  Speaker 2: I sent you there. It's a really common book. That's
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  Speaker 2: what makes it awesome actually, but it's the Penguin Dictionary
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  Speaker 2: of Symbols. So this book came out in the sixties
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  Speaker 2: and actually there's multiple contributors to this book, and I
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  Speaker 2: suggest to all of my students, anyone who books a
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  Speaker 2: session or anything, if they want to find like a
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  Speaker 2: really good, high quality symbolic dictionary or reference book, this
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  Speaker 2: is easily like my go to for them. It's a
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  Speaker 2: relatively cheap You're going to find it everywhere, probably at
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  Speaker 2: most bookstores. They republish it all the time, and this
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  Speaker 2: one really kind of became a favorite because the entries
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  Speaker 2: are so sound symbolically. I realize that, you know, not
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  Speaker 2: all symbolic dictionaries, of course, or reference books or symbolists
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  Speaker 2: are really created equal. That there are some books that
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  Speaker 2: are higher quality that get to the heart or the
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  Speaker 2: principle of the symbol In my opinion, this was one
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  Speaker 2: of them.
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  Speaker 4: And one of the amazing.
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  Speaker 2: Things that I found out over the years is that
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  Speaker 2: there's a fellow in here that's referenced more than any
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  Speaker 2: other author. You know, there's a huge like bibliography at
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  Speaker 2: the end of you know, reference books and authors and
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  Speaker 2: things like that, and this guy named renee Gannon is
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  Speaker 2: the most referenced author in this book. And so that's
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  Speaker 2: the first time that I ever came across his name,
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  Speaker 2: I believe. But in other symbolic dictionaries. I kept on
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  Speaker 2: coming across this guy, Reneganon Reneganon, and I was like, oh, well,
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  Speaker 2: this guy must be important, must be really interesting, must
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  Speaker 2: really know what he's talking about with symbolism. It took
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  Speaker 2: me a long time to finally get around to wanting
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  Speaker 2: to dive into his work. Funny enough, it was through
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  Speaker 2: a podcast host this podcast, the Sitting Now podcast, The
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  Speaker 2: Guy's Out of the UK. He asked me about Reneganon
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  Speaker 2: one time, and he goes, what are your thoughts about Reneganon?
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  Speaker 2: And I told him, I'm like, I haven't read his materials,
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  Speaker 2: so I can't really comment. I don't really know what
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  Speaker 2: he's all about, but I know that he's a thing
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  Speaker 2: in symbolism. And so he kind of sparked my interest
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  Speaker 2: because he actually had some negative things to say about
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  Speaker 2: him and sort of mostly, I would say, the people
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  Speaker 2: who followed him, the people who kind of took what
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  Speaker 2: he put out there and sort of ran with it
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  Speaker 2: in different directions. And so I bought a book of
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  Speaker 2: his called Fundamental Symbols that Slide To and that book
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  Speaker 2: on slide Too is easily probably right up there with
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  Speaker 2: one of my highest recommended books. That I would tell
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  Speaker 2: anyone about that if they have this book. It's such
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: a treasure trove of information. So I read this book.
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  Speaker 2: This is my first non book. Most people would not
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: start there with him, but I didn't know any better,
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  Speaker 2: and it didn't really you know, affect me if anything.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it did affect me in a positive way,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: in a major, major revelatory sort of way. So when
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: I read this book, it was really really impactful because
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  Speaker 2: I felt like I was finally reading like just like
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: pure gold almost in a way. I was getting so
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  Speaker 2: many revelations, so many insights. Everything was really sound, like
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  Speaker 2: what was being presented was really sound and thought out,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm like, this guy is next level. So this
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  Speaker 2: book is sometimes by the way, if people are interested
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  Speaker 2: in it, it often goes by sacred symbols, like sacred
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  Speaker 2: symbols of the sacred science or something along these lines.
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  Speaker 2: And so this really started my journey with reneganon and
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  Speaker 2: it's been quite a journey. So it's been about a
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  Speaker 2: couple of years. I've pretty much just been diving into
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  Speaker 2: his material for the most part. There's other stuff that
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  Speaker 2: I'm reading all the time, but he really there's no
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  Speaker 2: reason for me not to read his complete body of
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  Speaker 2: work basically, and I'm almost I'm like over halfway through
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  Speaker 2: reading all of his stuff, and so little did I
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  Speaker 2: know that he was pretty influential, and he basically started
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  Speaker 2: kind of like a whole new philosophical school in a way,
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  Speaker 2: and in some ways it's not really philosophy, but that's
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  Speaker 2: probably the best word to use. But he created whole
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  Speaker 2: whole new camp called traditionalism. And I had no idea
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  Speaker 2: about this, By the way, when I first started reading
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: his stuff, I had no clue. It wasn't until I
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  Speaker 2: really started diving into his work and then reading other
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: people's opinions about him and everything else, did I really
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: start kind of grasping his true influence with everything. So
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  Speaker 2: that is why I feel like it's important for me
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: to kind of talk about his work and talk about
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  Speaker 2: his contributions, because to me, he's become sort of like
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  Speaker 2: one of the gold standards basically when it comes to symbolism,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: and I'm all about the symbolism. And so, you know,
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: I was saying this before the show. I don't think
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  Speaker 2: I have like a presentation anymore that I go through
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  Speaker 2: where I don't reference a quote of his or a
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  Speaker 2: book of his.
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  Speaker 1: I know it was from you mentioning him multiple times
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  Speaker 1: on the show.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah right, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.
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  Speaker 2: So I mentioned him a lot because to me, at
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: least with my personal journey with everything, he's kind of
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: felt like a blade cutting through the noise and I
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: didn't realize, you know, that I kind of needed a
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: symbolic foundation that had a sound metaphysical framework, and that's
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: actually what I feel like he's given me. So because
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: this journey has been ongoing for the last couple of years,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I just feel like I'm kind of ready to talk about,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: you know, more about kind of where he came from,
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  Speaker 2: what he was interested in, the people who followed him,
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  Speaker 2: the people that kind of took the traditionalist label or
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  Speaker 2: torch and sort of ran with it. I also want
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: to talk about what, you know, he did not like,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: what he did not care for, and he's very open
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  Speaker 2: about that, and so all in all, I thought this
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: was like a really suitable sort of conversation to have,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: and with the Occult Rejects too. It's really awesome because
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: we've done so many streams together already, and just by
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: the nature of what this show is about and like
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: what you do it's like there's a freedom to kind
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: of go all over the.
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: Place or whatever.
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  Speaker 2: I don't think that there's a lot of other shows
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  Speaker 2: where this is what I would propose for the topic.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: You know, oh, thank you, right, were trying to stay
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: out of the beginner's you know stuff, beginner stuff that's
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: got its place. But you know, everybody in the occult
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: world is always I was looking for the one O two's,
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: the one oh three's, the one oh four level books,
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: and they can't really find it. They've got all this
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: introductory stuff and they've got to go through all the
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: introductory stuff to find gems like this. So this is
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: right down the alley of what we.
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  Speaker 4: Do right on, man, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: So if you just want to cruise to the next slide,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: this is basically you know, I would say the top
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: ten books that went On is known for. So if
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  Speaker 2: you were to come across his name, it's probably because.
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  Speaker 4: Of one of these books, would be my guess.
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  Speaker 2: Or somebody was highly influenced by some of these books
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  Speaker 2: as well that you later on maybe dove into or
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: started to you know, unpack their information or what have you.
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  Speaker 2: So one of the main books that he's really well
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  Speaker 2: known for is the Reign of Quantity and the Signs
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: of the Times. And in many ways, I would say
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  Speaker 2: the top two books are kind of I wouldn't say
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  Speaker 2: necessarily companion books, but they're completely related to each other.
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  Speaker 2: And it's the crisis of the modern world. And so
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: most of his work, as you can see, you know,
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: he wrote it between the twenties in the fifties. He
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: died in nineteen fifty one, and so most of his
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: work was between the twenties and fifties, and these two
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  Speaker 2: books really put him on the map.
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  Speaker 4: And there are major critiques of.
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  Speaker 2: Modernity and what the modern world sort of consists of,
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  Speaker 2: the modern mindset, the modern mentality. But the most impressive
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  Speaker 2: thing to me, because again I was just interested in symbolism.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm the tarot guy, I'm the astrology guy, whatever.
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  Speaker 4: I had no.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Idea that he was going to bring me on this
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: huge metaphysical journey of understanding and really bridging the gap
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: between symbolism and metaphysics. And so he talks about the
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: metaphysical implications of the modern world and basically why, in
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: his opinion, we've had this huge fall from grace and
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: basically sort of what has kind of become of that
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: and sort of how we kind of frame the modern
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: times that we sort of live in. And this is
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: a huge, huge aspect of Gwanon's work is basically critiquing modernity.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: So you'll notice this is a theme with a lot
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  Speaker 2: of people who end up taking, you know, the traditionalist
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: framework and kind of running with it generally. That is
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: something that kind of comes with it is this understanding
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: that you know, at least to a lot of people
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: like went On, we're living in a dark age. You know,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: you could say that we're living in a Coli yuga
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: and that people sort of spiritual mindset isn't what it
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: used to be, and that people were more holistic, people
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: were more grounded, everything was sacred. And what he says
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: is that there is more of a qualitative sort of existence,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: that people prioritize quality over quantity, and so hence the
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: reign of quantity and the signs of the times. Because
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: his argument, and it makes a lot of sense, is
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: that as people moved away from their spiritual essence, from
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: their spiritual center or core, which has this unifying principle
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: behind it, as you drift away from that center, what
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: has basically replaced all things qualitative, which relates to spirit
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: in essence is what's quantitative. So now we live in
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: a world where there's people who are basically, you know,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: materialist sort of scientists pretty much. You know that they're
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: into scientism rather and so everything has to go back
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: to these people. It has to be measurable in some way,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: shape or form. So you have to measure it, you
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: have to be able to hold it, you have to
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: be able to see it. You know, all of these
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: different types of things. Well, this does not vary. This
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: isn't really this isn't compatible with metaphysics basically because you're
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: not seeing beyond the physical world.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: I got the perfect example. So in a Greece, they
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: had two gods of time. Right, they had Kronos. We
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: know of Kronos now it's more of like the quantitative time,
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: the ticking of the clock or what have you. And
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: then they had Kados and Kitos was quality time. And
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: this guy only had locks of hair in the front.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: You can only grab him from the front, right, You
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: can only stop the guy from the front. So he's
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: got the locks of hair here. As soon as he's gone,
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: you can't grab at him. And he's also got a
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: scales that's balanced on a razor blade. He's also got
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: the winged feet of Hermes as well. But this Cairo's
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: concept is talked about being delicate and sacred form of
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: time that is very easy to miss, and it seems
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: like with all of this quantity, with all of this Kronos,
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: we've completely lost sight of the Cairos.
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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  Speaker 2: There's so many excellent examples that sounds, you know, in
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: line with that for sure, and so this was really
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: a game changer. And it makes sense symbolically too, with
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: how a lot of modern art is sort of created,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: what sort of prioritized in that world, what people used
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: to think about art. That's another thing that he really
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: has enlightened me with is sort of the role of
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: the artist in modern times versus in ancient times. And
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: so there's been a lot of things where he's just
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: completely blown my mind, and so I have no reason
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: to stop reading his work. So the first two are
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: major critiques of modernity, and then the third one is
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: The King of.
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  Speaker 4: The World, also called the Lord of the World.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: He goes deep into basically the symbolism that's generally associated
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: with all lords, emperors and kings, and it's amazing, and
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: he basically says, you know that the sort of blueprint
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: for the king is actually like a Northern Polar king essentially,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: And that's one of the big takeaways too with Gwanon.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: One of the reasons why I love him so much
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: is because I was already interested in my Northern Polar
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: symbolism stuff, and he's the one that gave me the most.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: Clarity with all of it.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: He's the one who basically wrote about it in the
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: most succinct sort of way and expanded on it and
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: basically let me know that what I was looking into
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: and that threat of information is actually completely legitimate. And
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: so there's other people that, because of him, did even
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: more research about that and everything else. But the King
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: of the World has a lot to do with that
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: symbolism actually, and it's so fascinating too because he gives
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: so many examples of all of these kings. As an
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: example relating to the cross. There's a reason why a
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: lot of kings relate to the cross because they want
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: to rule from the center of the cross, and oftentimes
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: they want to rule from the middle of their kingdom
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: or the middle of their domain. China was referred to
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: as the Middle Kingdom for this very reason. And he
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: goes through all of the symbolism and all of that.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Christ obviously king of kings crucified on a cross, Yes,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: for a very good reason. This relates very closely too,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: with a lot of world axis symbolism. People know that
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: I bring up the world axis a lot. He's also
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: probably the person that I give the most credit to
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: really clarifying all of that information as well, and so
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: so yeah, so he's been absolutely huge.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: Jupiter. Jupiter looks like the number four. It's the king
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: of planets, you know.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: So the cross, the number four, the square, the x,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: they're largely synonymous in a lot of ways. But he
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: wrote a book just on the symbolism of the cross
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty one that's also a great read, and
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: it's like completely it's all pre Christian sort of symbolism
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: and stuff. So, I know, he brings up Christian elements,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: but it's all before they sort of adopted the cross.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: His other work that people might know him for his
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: introduction to the study of the Hindu doctrines and so
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: his understanding of philosophy and metaphysics, and everything is really
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: really interesting. A lot of people think he really bridged
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: the gap between the East and the West because he
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: knew like seven languages and so he was born in France,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: he knew all these languages. He was an initiate and
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I have a slide about all this, and so he
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: was able to bring a lot of information symbolic metaphysical
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: from the Eastern world and bring it to the West.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: And he also really highlighted for me the main sort
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: of difference between Eastern thought and Western.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: Thought and what that's really all about.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: One being, Eastern thought traditionally values contemplation over action. Western
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: thought traditionally values action over contemplation. And that's so true
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: once once you know that and you actually start chewing
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: on that a bit, it's pretty wild the implications of
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: that of just understanding that. So East and West. That's
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: one of the books I have not read of his,
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: but it's definitely on my life man. And he's becoming
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: according to the Vedanta. So that's his really really deep
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: dive into the Vedanta in the Hindu world, and basically,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: like the core and spirit of Hindu metaphysics is advice
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: to Vedanta. And actually when you really start digging into
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Guanan and what his metaphysical kind of framework is. It's
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: actually vedantic in nature, and so it goes way, way, way,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: way way back perspectives on initiation.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: That's another book he's known for.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: He completely changed my opinion on what initiation is and isn't.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I had this very loosey goosey sort of concept of
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: what I thought initiation means, and he completely blew that
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: out of the water. He really, I'll say that multiple
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: times he's challenged me, and multiple times he's forced me
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to unlearn sort of like the shaky foundations of random
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: things that I thought I knew about. He's one of
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: these guys, you know, He's made me realize that I
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: still have a lot to unlearn and there's still a
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: lot to sort of know.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: Well, there's that element and symbolism, Like once you get
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: to know the lineage of these different symbols, there's no
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: way of hiding the meeting anymore. You know, you could
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: say anything you want to with the words, but once
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: you know the lineage of symbols, that's the true path
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: that they were following. That's what they expressed themselves through,
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: not just the words.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, And lineage is actually a really
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: interesting word to bring to the table too for today's conversation.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: That's a huge part of it.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Just real quick, I'll mention these real fast perspectives on initiation.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: I already said that insights into Christian esotericism interesting thoughts
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: about the esoteric side of Christianity. So we'll be getting
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: into this. But one of the interesting things about traditionalism,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: and even I would say Avada Vedanta, is that you
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: could understand this metaphysical principle that Ganon puts out and
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: that the Vedantists put out there, and you could apply
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: it to anything. And so you can be, as an example,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: a traditionalist Muslim, you can be a traditionalist to Hindu,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: you can be a traditionalist Buddhist, you can be a
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: traditionalist a lot of things, and so you actually aren't
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: limited in sort of where you go your exoteric path.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: And this is a thing within traditionalism. A lot of
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: traditionalists will have an exoteric path. So even there's a
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: number of Eastern Orthodox Christians that started off as traditionalists.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if you guys have ever heard
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: of Saraphim Rose. Sarahim Rose is probably like the most
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: well known example of that. And so he has a
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: book that it's called I think it's Eastern Orthodoxy in
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: the Future of Religion. And so he was a a traditionalist,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: and this is a story that a lot of people
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: actually have gone through. It's that they come across Guanan
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: or they come across another traditionalist, they learn sort of
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: the traditionalist model or worldview, and then that actually strengthens
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: their path forward with whatever exoteric religion they decide to pursue.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: So to me, that's a huge, huge key. You don't
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: need to even be like, you don't need to be
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: theistic with anything. You don't need to follow religion, but
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: you can if you want, and if you do, it's
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: going to give you a way better understanding of things.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: So post my dive into traditionalism and non my understanding
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: of Christian symbolism is like way more sound than what
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: it used to be. I have a greater appreciation for
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: the symbolism and it's compatible with what I know now
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: based on all this stuff. And then the last book
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: is actually the first book that I referenced Fundamental Symbols
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: of the Sacred Science. And this is actually like a
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: compilation of articles and so he actually was a really
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: really easy can imagine. He was a prolific writer, and
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: so he wrote a lot of articles for a publication
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: in France, and he wrote so many. He wrote like
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I think nearly like two hundred articles or something like
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: that about different topics, different symbols, you know, all these
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: different things. And so he had all these essays and
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: so some of these essays and articles have been put
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: into compilations pretty much and turned into books. And so
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: the first book that I read is basically an example
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: of that. So these are just his top ten. There's
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: like this list could be you know, you could double.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: You know, there's like twenty or twenty two books that
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: he has under his belt. Those are most of the
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: famous ones. Yeah, so if you want to cruise to
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: the next slide here.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Now, did he have any formal association with Carl Young.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: He was not a Young fan and so yeah, so
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: that's actually going to be a really probably maybe the
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: most interesting slide I have. Here are the things he
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: rejected and sort of who he considered to be intellectual enemies.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: It's very very interesting, including Theosophy, one of his early books.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: It's not in that list. He wrote a book in
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: the twenties, in the twenties. To me, that's mind blowing.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: He wrote a book in the twenties called Theosophy The
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: History of a Pseudo Religion, and he was railing against
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: the Theosophists in the twenties right in that fascinating that's great.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: Well, he knew the material better. He was already familiar
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: with the Hindu material, so you know, he saw them
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: for exactly what they were. They were kind of shysters exactly.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so that I haven't gotten around
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: to that one either, but I want to. And so
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: he considered a lot of these groups what they were doing.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: You could imagine bringing information from the East, but of
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: course something gets lost in translation, something gets distorted somewhere,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: and so he was, excuse me, he was vehemently against
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. He you know, one way I've
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: described it to my wife, he's kind of like a metaphysical, spiritual,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: symbolic hipster, you know, so that if it's popular, it's
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: probably not for him. He's interested in other stuff, you know,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: So whatever is kind of on the surface level, he
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: just knows that it's probably for you know, normies and whatnot.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: So this is the man himself, Renegannon eighteen eighty six
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: from nineteen fifty one. As I said, he was born
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: in France, so he lived in Paris when he was
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: in France. That's my understanding. And there's something in the
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: water over there, because a lot of the intellectuals that
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I've found myself gravitating towards, I've been blown away that
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: it's like French person after French person. It's happened so
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: many times now. But I think actually it's because of
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Guanan in part because he was so influential and he
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: was in touch with so many of these intellectual schools
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: and things like that. He became a true hub in
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: his day, and so a lot of people sought him
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: out and wanted to know his advice on as an example,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: you know, what Sufi order they should join, or if
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: they should join Freemasonry, or you know, all of these
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: different types of things like. He became very, very networked,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: and he was a prolific penman with letters and things
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: like that. So he was in touch with all sorts
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: of people all over the world. But he was born
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: in France. He later died in Egypt. He went over
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: to Cairo and he became a Sufi and that's where
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: he would spend the remainder of his days. Like I
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: said earlier, he knew seven languages, and so that's why
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: he was able to translate so much information and why
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: he was kind of this bridge between East and west.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: He was a Freemasonic initiate, and I think that there's
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: a couple of different lodges.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: That he joined.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: This is earlier in his life, so when he was
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: pretty young is when he did that. I don't know
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: if he I don't know how fondly he thinks of
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: those days, but he definitely considered freemasonry if you go
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: to the right lodge system, At least when he was around,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: he considered that to be a viable way of initiation.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: For what it's worth.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Was he ever vocal about the Grand Orient Lodge, the
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: so you know, a version in France?
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure. I'm sure he was well
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: aware of it and had opinions about it. He had
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: opinions about everything.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Right, well, you know, that's sort of the French Revolution lodge.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: So I think of anything he would be commenting on
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: that one, because the Orient Lodge is what kick that
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: off and all the rest of that stuff sort of
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: stemmed from it.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: So gotcha, gotcha, you know.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Funny enough, randomly, I was looking on my computer and
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I just typed in Ganaan because I have a bunch
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: of PDFs, and I'm like, who else has mentioned him before?
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: And I saw that Tracy Twyman had mentioned him only
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: once in like all of her works. Wow, And she said,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: she said, one thing that I can't find, at least
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: at the time, I didn't find like that much more
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: information is that he was also part of a group
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: called the the Pole Air Group. And you know, with
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: my polar symbolism northern stuff, that really, you know, piqued
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: my interest and I want to.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: Know more about that.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: So I left that off of this list here, but
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: that's something that I'm kind of interested in. But again,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: he was very well networked, so much so that people
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: were coming to him and asking him for advice again
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: on what different groups or orders they should join, and
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: he basically, because of the influx of traffic coming in
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: his way, he pretty much created like orders in and
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: of themselves and put people like on the map. You know,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: one of his followers for th Off Schwan, he's one
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: of these guys where he started a Sufi order and
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: he funneled a bunch of people his way, so kind
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: of interesting. So yeah, like I said, he converted to Sufism.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: This is an interesting thing for me because there are
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: a lot of allies and Sufism with traditionalism, so much
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: so that there are Sufi orders that traditionalist and they
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: make that very like known. There are other Sufis who
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: do not like traditionalism. So this is a thing that
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: we'll get into later on. I think it's interesting that
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: there's several orthodox like groups or esoteric groups that like
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: do not like traditionalism because their loyalty lies more so
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: with traditionalism than it does with that group itself, because
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: it gives you a higher perspective actually than that group.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: That might sound like really arrogant or whatever, but that's
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: what sort of like they teach, and that's pretty much
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: like it seems to me to be true.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: Actually.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: So this is the publication, so I basically think it
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: means Traditionalist studies or something in French. But he was
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: a heavy contributor to this magazine and so a lot
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: of the articles that were put into book form came
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: from that publication there. All right, so we want a
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: cruise to the next slide here, I read these two
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: books recently just to give more information about all of
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: this stuff. And I'm just going to quote this author
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: here and actually I'm going to interview him next month
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: nic And his name is Mark Sedgwick, and he is
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: an Islamic studies professor in the Netherlands. And he wrote
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Against the Modern World something I can't remember, like maybe
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: twenty ish years ago. And the tagline's interesting because it
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: gives you insight and tool how influential this group actually is.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: So against the modern world, traditionalism and the secret intellectual
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: history of the twentieth century. And so he breaks down
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: what traditionalism is all about, and he comes more from
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: a very academic perspective, and I would say he kind
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: of has like a a traditional journalistic approach. So he
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: kind of has a neutral sort of tone, I would say,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: in many ways. But I've seen him be interviewed online
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: and most people who interview him want to smear Traditionalism
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: and want to smear Ganon and want to smear a
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: lot of these people. And so I think his neutrality
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: allows him to appeal to people like me who want
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: more information about this group and what they've done throughout
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: the years, and then it also kind of appeals to
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: people who are maybe hesitant about traditionalism and want more
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: information about what this group is really all about. So
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: in some ways I think he kind of plays both
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: sides in that neutrality, but he comes and he really
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: talks about like the history and a lot of the
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: different movements within this larger movement and how it's changed
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: over time, and the controversial figures and sort of the
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: key areas in the world. Because there's traditionalists all over
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: the world. That's another interesting about all of that, and
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: each group, each sort of container of that has their
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: sort of different flare and sort of the different thing
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: that they're really, you know, emphasizing. As an example, I
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: would say probably, and I would to call them real traditionalists,
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I think as a stretch. Anyway, there's a lot of
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: people who have really politicized some of this information.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: So there's a lot of.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: Right wing, far right, al right whatever you want to say,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: people who have taken that term tradition and sort of
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: kind of, you know, used it to their advantage for
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: their campaign or whatever. And a lot of these guys
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: love Another traditionalist author, Julius Evela, and we'll get into
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: him you know, a little bit here, and then he
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: wrote this other book that actually just came out I
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: think like two or three years ago. So traditionalism the
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: radical project for restoring sacred Order. And so I'm going
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: to quote him in the next slide here just so
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: that we can get like an academics perspective on what
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: traditionalism is. So I'm just going to read it here.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: So Mark Sedgwick on traditionalism. So he says, and this
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: comes from the second book. Traditionalists see tradition and myth
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: as a body of understandings handed down through the ages.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: That is the key to making sense of the sacred
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: order and of the modern disorder that has replaced it.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: It is also fundamental that one single timeless tradition is
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: understood to underlie all the different forms of tradition, myth,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: and religion that exist and have existed. Belief in such
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: a single timeless tradition is known as perennialism, from the
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: objective from the adjective perennial, meaning everlasting or timeless. Perennialism
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: is so central to traditionalism that some traditionalists refer to
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: themselves as perennialists. But while all traditionalists are perennialists. Not
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: all perennialists are traditionalists. There are also non traditionalist perennialists
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: who do not share traditionalism's other fundamental ideas. And perennialism
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: has a long history in Western thought, and so he's.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: Right about that.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: So this idea of you know, this tradition that precedes
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: all other traditions, is there's been many flavors of this
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: over the years, for centuries upon centuries. There's been different
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: sort of takes, different ways of framing it, different ways
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: of talking about it. It kind of relates to this
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: idea of you know, many paths up the same mountain
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: sort of concept. And he talks about it in the
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: next slide here, which I'll read. So Mark Sedgwick on perennialism.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: So he says perennialism proposes one single truth found in
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: different places, while universalism finds multiple truths of comparable value,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: or even regards all religious claims as equally true. So
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: this is interesting. So I'm just going to read this again.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Perennialism proposes one single truth found in different places, while
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: universalism finds multiple truths of comparable value. So that is
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: that's interesting because you know, as an example, it kind
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: of reminds me of the flip that syncretism does. So
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: syncretism gwan On. Fascinatingly enough, he was talking about syncretism
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: in like the twenties, and so he was saying syncretism
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: is not the way. And so there's a few really
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: well known syncretists, astrologers and sort of symbolists out there.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: And what they're doing is the metaphor that I have
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: that I use whenever I try and explain this is
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: the wheel, you know. Or another one is you know,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: conspiracy theorists, where they have the corkboard and then they
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: got all of the pictures and they're connecting the dots.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: There's like red yarn from one picture to another picture,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: and there's like logos and sigils and whatever, and they're
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: trying to create this framework and they're trying to see
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: how different things sort of connect. This is kind of
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: like operating on the outside of the wheel. You know
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: that you have all the different sort of wedges of
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: the wheel or of a pie chart or whatever, and
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: you're trying to see how all of these different things connect.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: So most people who get into symbolism, that's actually how
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: they start out.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: That's how I started out.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Is you're looking at all these symbols and you're like,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: oh man, this symbol that kind of reminds me of
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: this other symbol which reminds me of this symbol, and
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: they're probably all connected. And you know that's true, they
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: are connected. But what traditionalism is and what Gnan teaches
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: is that you actually want to presuppose, basically that they
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: are all connected through this early tradition. And this tradition
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: sometimes is referred to as the primordial tradition. I think
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: in many ways it's kind of synonymous with the last
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Golden Age, and that if you presuppose that all of
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: the symbolism is connected the same way with like a
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: world tree, you know, one gigantic tree, many different branches
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: of varying size and degrees, and the same thing with
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: the roots, and you got leaves and you got fruit
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: or whatever on this tree, Well it all came from
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: one seed, right. Traditionalism basically is kind of proposing this
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: is that this is the case with all symbols, this
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: is the case with all myths, this is the case
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: with all of these things. And so once you can
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: kind of wrap your head around that and you understand
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: why that makes sense. Everything clicks way better. And so
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: because you actually have a real framework to sort of
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: work with versus beforehand, you're pulling all these things together
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: and you're trying to see how they match. There's nothing.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: You're like circling the drain, but you're not actually going
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: through the drain. So, just like a wheel or whatever, symbolically,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: you know, everything emanates from the center and returns back
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: to that same center. It's the center of the wheel,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: the hub of the wheel that connects all the spokes.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: That's more primary than the wheel itself, that's more fundamental
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: than the wheel itself. The center is more fundamental than
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: the circumference. And so what traditionalism us to the modern mind.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: It takes you away from the circumference of the wheel
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: back to the center of the wheel, and so it
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: actually reorients you. And that's what it's all about. It's
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: all about orientation. And so just to use the wheel
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: metaphor and how it relates to modernism and tradition. So
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: if you have that same wheel, the outside of the
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: wheel is always turning, it's always spinning, so it's the
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: least balanced part of the wheel, and so this relates
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: to action. The center of the wheel is related to stillness,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: it's related to immobility. And so the center of the
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: wheel is what people have referred to as or the
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: same concept is where the actionless activity occurs. If you
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: get to the center of the wheel, you become the
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: unmoved mover, you become the prime mover, and so chaos,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: you know, or all of us activity can kind of
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: unfrol around you. But you're in the center spot, you're
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: in the eye of the storm basically, And we find
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: this was.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: Perfectly represented with the taurus right.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: The yeah exactly, yeah, totally big.
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: Donut right in the middle the eye of the storm.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: It's never moving. So this idea goes to a fundamental
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: particle level as opposed to just being a symbol. It's
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: right there, embedded in nature.
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: You got it, man, exactly.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: That's the thing is once you understand it and see
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: And there's been other schools of thought where they teach
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: the same thing, a lot of Eastern schools of thought.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a reason why you'll see as an example,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: like the wheel in the Eastern world way more and
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: you'll see the mandala, you know, in the Eastern world. Well,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: it's that sacred center, that holy of holies that is
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: of supreme importance. So the outside of the wheel relates
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: to action, but it also relates to division. It's like
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: you're dealing with the different wedges of a pie chart.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: So it relates to action, and it also relates to becoming.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: The interior part of the wheel relates to contemplation, just
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: like what I was talking about earlier, and it relates
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: to being, not becoming. That's where you want to be.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: And so it's not about I'll be content when this
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: happens or when that happens, or when I get this
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: job or that girl or this house or that car
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: or whatever it might be. You know, that's this idea
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: of becoming, and there's no guarantee that you're going to
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: even be around tomorrow or next week to fulfill these
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: goals or whatever. So you're delaying sort of your own
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: contentment and your own centerness in a lot of ways.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: And so where you want to be is you want
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: to be in the center of the wheel. And in
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: my opinion, like on a practical sort of level, the
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: way you get there, at least the way you start
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: your journey is by being present. Being present is absolutely key,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: not thinking about the future, being caught up with what's
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: happening next week, next month, next year. I love the
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: conspiratorial community. I've been watching conspiracy content for what feels like,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: you know, half my life or whatever. But so many
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: people in the conspiracy world, they're all caught up with
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: always what's happening in the future. Same thing with astrology.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Most people, I'm you know, look at their natal chart.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: That's fine, but a lot of people they have their
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: heads into what may or may not be happening in
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: the future. So you don't want to be in the future,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: You're going to be prone to anxiety. If you're always
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: thinking about the future. You don't want to be in
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: the past. You're gonna be prone to depression. If you
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: find yourself always thinking about the past, you're going to
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: be longing for something, or you're gonna have a what
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: a shoulda kuda kind of mentality. You want to be
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: in the present moment, you want to be in the
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: eternal now. Your awareness and your focus is absolutely key.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: So the center of the wheel relates to that as well.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: I would say this is so like parmanadea and content,
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: right so he had two books in his poem on nature,
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: the World of Truth and the World of opinions. Right,
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: the world of truth is the world of the central axis,
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: the creator of the universe, and the world of opinions
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: is what all these other people want to call these
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: different things, but it's essentially the world of action. And
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: you know, he talks about ontology. He was the inventor
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: of sort of ontology as a philosophy, which is the
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: philosophy of being. So you know, all of this stuff
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: goes back to seven hundred BC, all the rest of
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: this stuff, and it's so deceptively simple. It just flies
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: under everybody's radar unless you're actually looking for these things.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, oh yeah, dude, you totally got it.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: The concept of the monad. You know, there's so many
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: things that overlap with this, and that's the thing. It's
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: actually kind of interesting. One of the things Ganaan has
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: said is that once you kind of understand this information
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: and you have knowledge about this dynamic, he says that
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: it's not uncommon for you to develop what he refers
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: to and what I guess others have referred to as
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: the language of the birds, and that basically I know,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: there's different ways of kind of looking at that esoteric
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: language or the green language or what have you. But
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: the way he refers to it is that it gives
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: you the ability to kind of translate other people's traditions
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: and understand other people's traditions. And so, as an example,
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: being a symbolist who's interested in traditionalism and perennialism and everything,
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: I'm perfectly comfortable. I'm not saying I understand the totality
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: of their thing or that I really have a huge
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: grasp on their faith, but I'm pretty comfortable talking to
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: like a Buddhist or a Christian, or even an occultist
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: and things like that, although traditionalism really is not into
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: occultism actually, but it's given me the ability to talk
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: to people and kind of meet them at their level basically,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: and I understand what they're talking about. One of the
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: interesting things that maybe I'll expand on in a minute,
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: but I have a neighbor, an older woman, and she's
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: been in her Eastern Buddhist Hindu Vedanta studies for like
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: thirty forty years, so she knows way more about this
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: stuff than I do. Right, she's been in that world.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: That's what she really cares about. She's got a lot
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: of material on it, and it's been surprising over time
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: how many things as we've just been chit chatting that
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: I completely understand and that she's been surprised that I
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: understand as well, and that we're actually able to have
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: a real deal conversation because of my traditionalist background, basically
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: because I've been diving into this material, and because there
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: is a universal quality to all.
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: Of this stuff basically, So there's that.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's move on to the next slide here,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: And this is basically going over some of the core
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: principles of traditionalism pretty much how I see it. I
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: think other people would have different sorts of things. And also, admittedly,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: I've read so much and I've had so many like
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: personal breakthroughs with this stuff, that there's going to be
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: stuff that I'm like, you know, I did not remember
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: to put on the list or what have you. But
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: I already mentioned it. This concept of a primordial tradition,
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: this idea that there is a tradition that preceded all
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: other traditions that all of the other traditions actually emanate from.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: And so this relates to perennialism, for the reasons we
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: just kind of went over. And so even one of
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: the main traditionalists, Schwan, he put out a book called
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: The Transcendent Unity of Religions, right, And so it's this
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: idea that there is sort of this core element, this seed,
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: that the world tree emanated from. So just imagine this
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: massive world tree that you know, bridges the gap between
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: all that is above with all that is below. There's
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: roots that are deep underneath the earth. There's branches that
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: are soaring to the heavens. All of these things all
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: came from one you know, unifying principle, basically universal meta physics.
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: That's another one.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: So to be honest with you, before I got into
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: this information, I felt like I kind of understood how
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: metaphysics works. I feel like I didn't really understand anything though.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: I didn't really understand anything until I learned it from
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: this school. And their opinion is that their metaphysical understanding
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: is universal. And so I have not found that to
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: not be the case so far that when what I've
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: learned through this seems to be applicable all over the place.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: And of course there's going to be people that have
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: in groups and lodges and mystery schools. They're going to
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: have their own spin, their own flare, But there's a
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: universal quality to the things that they're proposing, in my opinion,
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: which is why it's so valuable.
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: So this vertical or hierarchical order.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: So you know, long story short, the best way I
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: can explain it just very quickly.
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: Most people live in a horizontal.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Reality in the modern world, so everything is all about
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: everyone else pretty much. This is the outside of the wheel.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: To operate on the outside of the wheel is to
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: look for external validation. Everyone should be equal, everyone should
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: have equal say, everyone's opinion matters, just like you're saying
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: the opinion thing headless. When you start understanding this information,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: and if you get to the center of the wheel,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: and you can get to the center of the wheel
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: without ever having heard of traditionalism or Ganon or any
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: of this stuff, that's my opinion. But if you are
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: operating in the physical world, in the modern world, you're
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: living in this horizontal reality. When you get to the
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: center of that wheel, you now have a vertical orientation.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: You are what bridges the gap between heaven and Earth.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: And Ganan actually wrote a great book about this called
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: The Great Triad and that you're in a triune relationship
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: with heaven and earth, and you are the third thing heaven,
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Earth and man.
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: You are that bridge.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: This is also related to the Lord of the World
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: or the King of the world book that this is
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: what these old kings, that was their shit, that was
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: their thing. They believe that they had a divine right
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: to rule because they were operating from their center. So
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: they felt as though because they have this vertical orientation
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: just like a pole, just like an obelisk or a
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: column or standing stone, or a mountain or whirl tree,
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: they felt they can give people orientation that they are
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: the sort of the center of the wheel and that
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: they actually are leading their people, you know, hopefully to
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: a more prosperous place.
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: Well, if you look at the Aryan tribes, the idea
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: was that they had these war chiefs that would share
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: gold with everybody in their party. Now, the gold was
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: looked at as the flesh of the gods. Right, so
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: as they're sharing gold both to the war chiefs and
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: to the tribal leader, what they're doing is they're engaging
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: in a type of prayer that keeps their tribe together.
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: And a lot of these Goths and Visigoths and whatnot.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: They became the goldsmiths of the Greeks and the Romans. Right,
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: so these people are the ones that are so highly
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: skilled craftsmen that are from the step right. They don't
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: have any workshops. They're doing this out on horseback and
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: they're bringing their gold into the Greek world and it's
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: the most highly valued thing in the world. So all
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: of these different arts that are associated with this stuff
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: are considered to be heavenly arts or divine art. So
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: you're not just creating this stuff, you're also praying in
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: the process.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, dude, yeah exactly. And Ganan has information about
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: all of this exactly where you're saying, and basically the
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: way he describes it, and it seems to be the
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: case absolutely, is that every sort of vocation, every job
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: or occupation, if you will, a priesthood in the ancient world.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: And so if you were a farmer, you basically had
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: a sacred relationship with that activity and it could lead
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: you to deliverance, enlightenment, whatever you might want to say,
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: an awakening. And so this is what people pass down.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: And so no matter what you were, if you were
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: a baker, a freemason, obviously we know what the free
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Masonic tradition is all about. It's all about encoding and
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: the symbolism with free Masonic tools and everything else. And
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: so everything truly was sacred in the ancient world, and
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: people had this understanding that what they were doing was
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: actually very meaningful. This is one of Gnan's major critiques
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: with modernity is that we are now removed from our occupation.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: We're sort of removed in this way. There's no sacred
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: element to being a paper pusher. There's no sacred element
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: to just being an Amazon driver or something like that.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: You know, I wish this were the case, but it's
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: just more of your just basically now you are only
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: valued based on your actions, you know, and that that
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: seems to be sort of the thing.
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: Interesting, what's the tech bros catch on to it? You know,
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: the high priests of these different orders are going to
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: start producing basically biological super soldiers who are now Amazon
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: you know, Uber Mitch, and so they're going to be
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: out there in their pursuit of heaven as they're delivering
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: these packages the best they can. So it's it's coming.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, they got to discover it first at some
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: point but it's coming.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so he has a lot to say about
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: that role, the role of vocation and everything else. And
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: so I thought, to me, that's like one of the
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: things that I think is so beautiful is to think
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: that what you did sort of the art or the
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: craft that you specialized in, had this you know, sort
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: of dynamic with it. And obviously definitely not the case anymore,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: because a lot of our jobs too, by the way,
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: they're so recent and knew they didn't exist that that
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: long ago. If anything, I'll say on a personal level,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: I almost feel like, inadvertently that if graphic design, which
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: is my main bread and butter with everything, symbolism would
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: be the closest thing I can get to with that
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: I think in a lot of ways is the study
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: of symbolism. So for me, I almost feel like being
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: a graphic designer for as long as I have been
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: that finally pursuing this information has been what you know,
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: would be my sacred sort of you know, aspect with
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: what I do with art and everything.
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: Right, So a medical specifically, they had the idea in dactyls,
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: and the idea in dactyls represented things like you know,
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: these smiths and these athletes, and they were acting as
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: fingers of the gods, right fingers of Mount Ida, which
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: is this holy site to them. So the Olympics was
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: a sacred event where they would be living out sort
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: of the aspirations of the gods as they travel through mortals,
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: you know, and that's why they would call them in
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: to these events and things like that. But you know, again,
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: we've lost that sort of sacredness and we just sort
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: of have the trappings of what was formerly.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Sacred, right right exactly. And you know, I'm glad you're
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: bringing a lot of this stuff up. The other thing
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: behind it is that a lot of people think they're
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: going to find the sacred or sort of the transcendental
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: in something new and something that it was just invented
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: and something that was just created. What the traditionalists propose
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: is that you actually have to go back that what
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: was sacred, what's holy, sound, metaphysics, whatever, it already existed,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: so you.
• 55:48
  Speaker 4: Actually don't have to create a new sort of thing.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: A lot of new philosophers, you know, they're coming up
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: with new jargon, you know, and new words and combining
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: ideas and whatever. And this act actually, according to Gnan,
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: this actually brings you further away from center that you know,
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: kind of what you need is already here and you
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: don't need to develop any of this newness. And that's
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: what the modern world too. It craves newness, it craves novelty,
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: it craves inventions and things like that.
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: The ancient world was very, very different, seemingly.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: So next bullet point metaphysical understanding of symbolism. That's probably
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: one of the biggest things to me. That's why this
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: school or this camp in general, I consider them to
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: be something along the lines of like symbolicly literate and
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: in the truest sense. And that's why you know, I'm
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: kind of talking about them today because I'm all about
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: the symbolism. I have yet to find a school that
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: really is as symbolically literate as these guys. The understanding
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: that modernity is basically in opposition to tradition, Just like
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: what I say said there, that seems to be the
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: case from my worldview. Also just want to say, even
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: though these guys were critical of modernity and especially the
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: modern mindset and everything else, they also were detached to
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: it in a way that it's not supposed to bring
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: you down. It's not supposed to be something that you detest.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: It's not supposed to be something that you run away
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: from or anything along those lines.
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: It just is the deal, right.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: So qualitative over quantitative reality kind of talked about that
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: a little bit, the rain of quantity and the signs
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: of the times, and I just wanted to put in
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: here allied traditions and there's more, but Sufism seems to
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: be an allied tradition depending on the order, Taoism and
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: other Eastern ways of thinking, and then Vedanta as well.
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: Even I was listening to what was that?
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: Where's Hellenism?
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: There's the argument in some ways.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, all traditions are part of the primordial tradition, right,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: so you'll you will see aspects everywhere. But yeah, I
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: would say Hellenism isn't isn't uh you know for the
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: most part what people would would put on this list either,
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: I don't think, but uh, okay, so this is a
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: fun one. The next slide here, So anti traditional currents
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: according to Gannon, and modernity makes sense already explained that
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: materialism as it relates to modernity already that makes sense
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: as well. Scientism that makes sense because to me, it's
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: all part of the same sort of soup. I guess psychology,
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: that's an interesting one. So Ganon already in the twenties
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: and thirties, he was talking about the dangers of psychology
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: and explaining why it's not a sound sort of practice
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: and sort of the pitfalls of it. So even way
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: back when, over or around one hundred years ago, he
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: was already, you know, his radar was already up with
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: that modern philosophy. He wasn't a big fan of. He
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: thought a lot of modern philosophers were just kind of,
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of distorted truths. Like I said, it's
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: about a lot of times philosophy is like what is
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: your new idea, what is your new concept? What are
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: you putting together? And so because he's all about tradition,
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: he's like, we already know we don't have to reinvent
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: the wheel here. We should just understand it as is
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: and that we're going to get further that way than
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: trying to create something new. Progressivism, you know, if you're
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: all about tradition, progressivism is going to be counter to
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: that basically, you know. And so I know it's not
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: this simple, but it's interesting to me that a lot
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: of progressives do not like traditionalism because it automatically gets
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: lumped in with the right pretty much, you know, and
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: it's like, there's more to it than this. But progressives
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: in many way liberal In many ways, it's about destruction,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: destruction to make way for something new.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: And then.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: You know, I would say more of a conservative approach
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: would be kind of like preserving heritage, preserving tradition.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: I'm neither. Just for the record, I am neither.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: I don't vote, I'm not a political person, so whatever,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: just putting that out there.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: Well, it's funny because we always think of progressivism in
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: the postmodernist context, but Renee Greenton was a huge influence
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: on the postmodernists. In fact, his critiques of psychology were
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: carried over directly into the postmodernist critiques of psychology. So
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: in a lot of ways, Renee Genton was the author
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: of this form of kind of progressivism that we're in now.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: Ironically enough, gotcha, Yeah, all right.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: So Protestantism, he actually early on he thought that Catholicism
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: was maybe the most sort of sound Christian path and
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: that it does have enough of a primordial as sensor
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: core or there's an initiatory core and he later on
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: sort of renounced that. But he did on multiple occasions
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: is talk about how Protestantism is so modern that he
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: just can't respect it or understand it, and things like that.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: I already mentioned theosophy, so he was already on that
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: tip pretty early. On occultism, he didn't really care for
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: at all. Really syncretism. I already kind of explained that
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: a bit. And then of course the New Age. You know,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: that makes a lot of sense, you know, I think
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: for obvious reasons. So these are sort of the and
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: traditional anti traditional currents according to Gnan. So in part,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: you know, traditionalism is a lot of the things that
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: I talked about, but it's also the rejection of a
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: lot of things. And so I'm not even saying, by
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: the way that I'm like a true traditionalist or Ghanaian.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: I'm just mostly like putting out there like, this is
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: what I'm learning about this camp, this is what the
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: deal is. Just like with anything else, take the good,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: leave the bad, et cetera, et cetera. All right, so
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: my key takeaways, so this would be the next slide
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: number ten here. You know what I personally sort of
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: have gotten the most value out of at least when
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: I just sat down to write this little list here,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: it gave me a symbolic foundation that I didn't know
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: I needed, absolutely for sure. And so not to pick
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: on anyone specifically at all, because there's a ton of
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: people doing it, but there's a lot of people decoding
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: things talking about symbolism online, but they don't have a
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: real foundation to be talking about some of this stuff.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: Not that they shouldn't, you know, and not that it
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: can't be entertaining as well, but all.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: The time on here, it's just that's the constant thing
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: that we keep coming back to, is like, do you
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: even have a basis to be making this critique?
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: What are you?
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: What are you talking about? You know, mm hmmm.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: It's been something It is unfortunate. I mean, I do
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: get it, but it's like that's almost like not to
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: get political, but it's almost like the liberal mind like
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: feeds that bullshit. It's like, at some point we got
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: we're gonna stop worrying about somebody's fucking feelings and you
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: just be like, I hate to tell you don't know
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: what you're talking about, but it's kind of hard to
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: do that because of the way we've you know, been
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: whatever exactly exactly.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: You know, the modern mindset again is this horizontal, so
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: everyone should be free to do whatever they want. Everyone
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: is entitled to their opinion all these different types of things.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: And I think that there were traditions and groups that
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: had an understanding that we're like, hey, no, this spiritual
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: concern that's for like a shaman, that's for like a
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: medicine person, that's for like a priestess or a high
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: priest or whatever. This is what they know about. So
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: they because they've concerned themselves with it their whole entire life.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: So there's a certain amount of expertise there.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: You go back a few hundred years, people who are
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: writing books, you know, or certain people like Giodanno Bruno,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: if you thought you were a bullshit and he was
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: writing something about it, you know what I'm saying, Like,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: even back in the day, you'll actually see some people
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: at this saying, this person's a fucking bullshit all this
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: listen to him, yeah.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no exactly exactly. So there's a
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: lot of that today. So I've had to get really
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: used to that and to be honest, like I'm okay
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: with it, but it doesn't. It's no, A lot of
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: that stuff is just not interesting to me because I
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: know that there's really there's no sort of like structure
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: kind of underneath, and people are just like pulling things out.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: And also too just to say, because we're online, it's
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: content creation for a lot of people, and so the
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: more sensational thing they can stay. If it's a click
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: clickbait title sort of thing. It's like that's what they're
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: gonna roll with, you know.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: What, like yes, substance, go ahead, go ahead, No, no.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: You go substance critique without substance, right, That's what they're
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: trying to do, is they're trying to make Hey, we're
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: gonna make claims about this thing because we feel a
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: certain way, but we're not going to tell you exactly
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: where we got that information from. Maybe it was a rumor, whatever,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: But that's gonna be our thing because it fills the
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: time that we've got on our.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: I mean there's been times where I think, you know,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: the Internet, I think is what focks this ship up.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately too in social media. It's like you know, I've
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: I've even had people on the show a long time
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: ago they won't be on anymore. But you know, people
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: that come on or you'll see reels of they'll just
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: start spit firing like all.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: These like hot keywords like mo, lock, bail, all these things,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 5: and everybody wants to hear about when they first get
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 5: into this, Oh, this is that, that and this, And
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 5: I'm like, where's the fucking receipts of all these fucking
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 5: associations you're.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: Making, right right, you know, like where did you get
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: I'm just wrong because I've never heard this before, you
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, you know, and it's just like
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: you get a lot of that and it's just like,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, Unfortunately, it's just content creators. It's
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: sometimes just fucking that up, I.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: Guess, right, right, Oh yeah, no exactly.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot of that going on, absolutely, And
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: I'll even say there's a lot of that going on
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: in my symbolic reference books because a lot of these
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: guys they don't have that sound enough foundation in my opinion,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: to be like, you know, recommendable or something. It's not
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: something I would tell people to seek out or whatever.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: One small example that I just want to put out
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: there because it's one of the big ones for me
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: on a personal level, how many associations in my symbolic
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: reference books new associations. Don't get me wrong, the sun
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: is incredibly important, incredibly significant. I would never deny that,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: but so many of my modern symbolic books attribute everything
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: to the son. You know, everything is solar, everything is
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: sun worship and this and that, and that's simply not
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: actually the case. That's one of the things that once
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: again gon On he really put me onto. It's my
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: like fifth or whatever bullet point there, polar versus solar understanding.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: There is a difference, and it goes way way way back,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: and once you understand the difference and sort of the transition,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: then it gives you a whole new sort of thing
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: to use when you're decoding. Because even sometimes too, the sun,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: when it's referenced in literature or something like that, it's
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: not the literal sun. They're not literally or in occultism
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: or esotericism or in some of these ancient books. They're
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: not all the time referencing the actual physical sun that
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: rises in the east and sets in the west. They're
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: talking about a metaphorical sun. So if people want an
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: understanding on that, I did a whole presentation called I
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: believe it's called the Rising Sun esoteric solar symbolism.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: That's where I dive into it, and Guanan is one.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: Of the key figures that really we really solidified this
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: one for me, that there was a time before solar worship,
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: and so it's appropriate to use I understand why people
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: use it a lot, but there's people who they use it. It's
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: not the only reference sort of in town basically, but
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: when you have a limited understanding, and it makes a
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: lot of sense that that's what it would be. So
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: symbolic foundation pretty huge for me, really really key sound metaphysics.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: I already I'm kind of trying to explain that as
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: best as I can.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: You know, a.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: Metaphysical, true metaphysical understanding and way of being and nature.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: It takes years and years and years and years to
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: really wrap your head around it and sort of embody
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: it and everything else. So I'm on my journey. But
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: I feel like personally, when I was reading occultists, I
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: never got as sound of a framework as I'm getting
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: with Gannan. Initiation versus counterinitiation. This is an interesting dynamic.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: So the idea basically is that what leads you to
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: the center of that wheel and the center of self,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: which transcends self.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: By the way, if you go far enough, that's the idea.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: What brings you closer to that.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: Is considered initiatory, and if it brings you further away
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: from that, that would be counter initiatory.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: So that's the whole entire thing. That's how they frame it.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: So as an example, there are counter initiatory groups, counter
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: initiatory people, and that are running rampant in the modern world.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: You know, I think because we live in this dark
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: age that one of the things Gonan clearly says in
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: one of his books is if we're going to get
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: out of this dark age and if we are going
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: to have sort of this return of the primordial tradition
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: or this Golden age or whatever you want to say,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: people have to go back to their center. That that's
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: pretty much like the main thing. People are so off
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: center now that basically there's a direct correlation between people
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: not being in the center of their wheel and the
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: dark age that we're currently living. And people don't know
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: who they really are, they don't really know their true power,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: they have no true knowledge of self. Essentially, well, just
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: to back you up on that a little bit.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: Think about the increasing intensity of these sort of really
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: questionable global events. Right, so each one of these days
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: it takes by we know that there's another one on
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 3: the horizon. It almost seems like a Fibonacci spiral starting
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: with let's say the Kennedy assassination nine to eleven, and
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: then you've got a speeding up of these sort of
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: questionable events. And now it takes maybe two or three
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: days for most people to even see that what they're
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: being told is total bullshit and you can't trust any
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: of these stories. Well, take that in regards with polar symbolism, right,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: we're so far out of whack from ourselves almost like
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: these events are are sort of urging us look inward
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: and we're not hearing it.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, totally yeah, no exactly, yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: There's cowless examples of of all of this for sure.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so the next one world axis or the
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: axis moundy. That was one of the first things that
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: I really took away from my Dictionary of Symbols book.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: They're not afraid to talk about or they actually go
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: into this understanding of things. So if you look up
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: the tree they're going to mention the world axis racess Moundy.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: You look into the mountain, they're going to bring that up.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: You look into the Columner pillar, They're going to bring
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: that up. And so Ghanon is one of the clearest
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: writers that talks about this in a very sound sort
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: of way, and so for that, I'm super grateful. I
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: already mentioned the polar versus solar understanding of things. He
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: wasn't the first one to actually write about it. I've
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: actually read the polar versus solar dynamic in books that
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: predate Ganan, but he's the one that really clarified and
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: crystallized everything. He has an article that really blew my
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: mind when I first read it, and I think it's
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: called The Bear and the Boar, and he talks about
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: some of this symbolism and sort of what the deal
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: is in the heavens, how there was this original world
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: axis axis moondy bridge to the other side, if you will,
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: and that when the sun worship side of things came
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: online heliocentrism, in my opinion, the axis shifted and different
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: constellations started getting favored and all sorts of other things.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: So it's really a pretty big deal this symbolic shift,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: this great symbolic shift from polar to solar. I talk
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: about some of this stuff. Probably my best presentation on
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: this would be my presentation called the Palladians if you
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: want to look it up on my YouTube. The Rain
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: of Quantity. Had no concept of that at all until
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: I started reading his work.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: Again.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: I just was interested in the symbolism and a little
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: you know, I didn't know I was going to come
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: or I was going to like read about all this
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: other stuff, but this is where I found myself. So
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: the Reign of Quantity and the signs of the times
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: a really key understanding to things. It really is mind
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: blowing once you wrap your head around sort of all
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: of the little implications of that, the Golden Age and
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: sort of the Golden Age symbolism and how that what
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: that maybe looked like. I think there's a hyperboring connection
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: with this. There's a northern polar connection with all this stuff.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: Agatha. Look at all the Agartha memes.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know if I've seen those, but I'm interested.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: It's hilarious.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: Issues with modernity. We've gone over that stuff. The parallels
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: with sufism very interesting there's a lot of allied Sufi
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: authors that are like right in line with traditionalism essentially.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: I haven't read too many of them, to be honest
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: with you, I know they're out there. Henry Corbyn is
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: one of them. He has a lot of interesting Northern
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: polar symbolism and he's a Sufi advita adonta significance or
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: the concept of non duality, you know, when you really
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: if you just want to into the metaphysical aspects of traditionalism,
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: that's really what it comes all down to, nonduality, which
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: at some point I'd be happy to talk about that
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: because that is my current rabbit hole of understanding basically
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: and the implications of that. And it's a tough one
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: to wrap your head around as a modern Westerner, but
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: it's very interesting. And I would say the birds eye
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: perspective this is kind of what I was saying earlier.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: It to me what it feels like at least, and
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: I'm sure other people in different groups feel the same way.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: But I think that this is backed with like really
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: sound information. Is this idea that you know, traditionalism is
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: almost like the bird's eye view, and so symbolism, I
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: would say, is very similar it's the bird's eye view
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: of a thing. So if you're only you know, if
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: you're looking at the symbolic value of something, you're looking
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: at the hired principled nature of that thing, whatever it
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: is you might be talking about beyond the physical, beyond
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: just the material, although that's all part of it, because
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: really symbolically everything is its nature pretty much. And so
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: if you want to understand the symbolism of the cat,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: just study the cat. Study the cat, see its wighs,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: all of its biology, everything about it is like that
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: is the cat, right, But the symbolism of the cat,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: there's even a higher principle behind that, because what Gannon
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: really taught was that every symbol, whatever constitutes a symbol here,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: anything and everything seemingly right, it's representing a higher nature.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: It's representing a higher order. That's the deal. It's truly
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: a bridge to the other side, every single symbol. And
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: so the birds i perspective with traditionalism and the understanding
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: of symbolism and sort of their metaphysical framework, it's almost
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: like a bird looking down on everything else. And so
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: whether you're talking or whether you're reading a scripture from
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: the Bible, or you're reading something from some Hindu scripture,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: or you're reading whatever it is, you're watching a movie.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many times now that I'm
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: like the traditionalist lens has helped give me the higher
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: principled nature of the thing. And there we go, I
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: say cat, and there's a cat. Yeah, they've been summoned.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 4: He or she.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: This is a key. But that brings us to the
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 3: topic of like the symbolic nature of a thing a
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: higher order. There is a separation between the real and
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: the and the symbolic, and it's within that separation that
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: you find all of this myriad meeting almost like a
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 3: rainbow of perceptions, right, but it coalesces back again when
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: it reaches another thing that is a symbolic or representative
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: of that thing. So there's almost a geometry to symbology
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: that a lot of people sort of gloss over when
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: they're not focused on the axial symbolism and how related
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: that is to our subconscious mind.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, you know. One of the things
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: that he discusses is, and this helped me wrap my
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: head around what we're living in, is that it seems
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: as though basically everything trickles from a higher source downward
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: and influences what is underneath, not the other way around.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: Notice that we say as above, so below, right. That's
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: how if anyone's going to condense, it's always just as above,
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: so below. That part is true. That's totally true, and
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: so as below so above. I actually now maybe have
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: an issue with that because I don't know if that's
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: actually true or not. And so the idea is that
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: what is part of the principle, I'm just going to
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: use my hands here, right, what is part of the principle.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: If that's above, it trickles down, and it trickles down
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: in influence. And so that is to say, we are
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: basically influenced by the heavens. The heavens aren't influenced by us.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: We do not influence what happens above.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 4: It does not.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: It doesn't seem to work that way, because that would
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: be a corruption actually, because look at all the things
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: that we're doing down here, right, and so it's it's
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: like it's like a one way trickle down sort of effect.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: And the way I would put it as well is
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: using the wheel as a metaphor for everything. The outside
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: of the wheel would be related to earth, the interior
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: of the wheel would be the heavenly domain. And so
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: it's what happens in the center influences what happens out here,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: not the other way around, right, And so in some
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: way symbolically, when I say up and I'm referring to
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: the divine, it's actually the center as well, in my opinion.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: So this is this bird's i perspect because you're concerning
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: yourself with this higher principle, with the center, this transcendental
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: Holy of holies, you you take on this bird's eye
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: perspective on things versus if you're living in the horizontal
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: circumference of the world, the material world, you're not going
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: to have that angle or perspective on things.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 4: Cool, all right, So just.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: A few notable traditionalists, that's the next slide here, Just
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: so people, if they want to do their own research
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: on some of these guys, feel free. I would say
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: two of these guys are controversial for different reasons, and
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: I'll explain just briefly what that's all about.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: I heard upon, Oh.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's pretty he's pretty well known. He wrote
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: a huge book about like a world religions. If I'm
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: not mistaken or maybe it's sorry, that's Houston Smith. But yeah,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: Charles Upton, I need to get around to him. So
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: you have Renegan On you know, he's really sort of
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: like the head of this whole entire thing. And then
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: you have Ananda Kumaraswami and so I'm interested in diving
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: into his work.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 4: I have yet to do it.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: I've read passages and all these sorts of things. Then
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: you have Julius Evla. He's probably the most controversial person
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: on this list. I would say his most well known
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: book is called Revolt against the Modern World, and he
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: has some interesting things to say. He's very political. I
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: would say his flavor of traditionalism is almost more warrior like.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: There's this kind of like fire that's associated with him. Also,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: like I said, very political. So he really tried to
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: get more than one fascist group for like him to
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: be kind of like their go to guy with like
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: symbolism and metaphysics and things like that, and he really wasn't.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: He wasn't received that way, and so there's a whole thing.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: He's like the number one guy that people point to.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: He's a fascist, he's a right winger, he's a Nazi,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: all these things. He wasn't accepted by these people he
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: wanted to be, but he wasn't, and so he really
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: his role isn't as significant as people like to make
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: it seem. It is in my opinion, but I have
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: not dove into his work at length. Most of everything
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: that I'm talking about here is strictly Ganan centered. Fritzschoff Schwan,
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: he he's another interesting guy. He actually had a scandal
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: in his day with basically it's kind of like the
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: classic guru thing, sleeping with students and things like that.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: He had what he referred to as spirit wives, and
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: so he would some of his members, the couples, he
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: would say, oh, you can stay married to your husband,
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: but you'll be my spiritual wife, so you'll actually have
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: two husbands. And so there's a huge fallout with Schwan
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: and Ganan and Schwan and a lot of other people.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: So there's even people who say, like, hey, just avoid him,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: you know. So some people say avoid him, avoid his work.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: Other people have said his work is really sound, so
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: you know, read his stuff, but just know that his
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: personal life was kind of like marred with all this
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: other happenings and whatnot.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 4: So both of them was far.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: Enough in history, and you've got all these you know,
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: men having multiple wives, so that kind of seems traditional, right.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: This actually, interestingly enough, he's from Switzerland and then he
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: moved over to the US and he had a compound.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 4: Utah in Indiana. Wow, And so this all happened in Indiana.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: He actually one of the other things that's interesting about him,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: he's the first one that really bridged the gap with
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: primordial symbolism and Native American symbolism and how they overlapped
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that. So each each person has their
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: own sort of what they brought to the table. So
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: Kamaraswami as an example, like he was an expert, like
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: an Indian art. Indian art that was like his thing,
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: so he knew a ton about it. Evela is more
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: of a right winger, fascy sort of guy warrior sort
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: of thing. Schwan was really into the native thing at
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: some point. Titus Burkhardt haven't gotten into him, but I
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: know he's definitely a traditionalist.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 4: Martin Ling's as well.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: Basically the rest of the list I have not really
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: thoroughly explored. At some point, maybe I will, but honestly,
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: I'm more solely focused on the early guys. But Martin
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: Ling's said Hussein Nasser, He's a well known traditionalists that's
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: still alive and doing things. Houston Smith is another big
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: one than Charles Upton.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: I feel like I've repeated people's names with their opinion
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: of something in my own stuff.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, com again, I said.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: I think I've actually repeated, like either Charles up to
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: say it myself, like their own their own theories and stuff.
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: That's why I think the names look familiar.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: M Yeah, they're definitely around. A lot of these names
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: are actually, you know, what's interesting to me the academic world.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: I have a friend who converted to Islam and became
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: an Islamic studies professor, and he's like one of the
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: only people that I've talked to that I know in
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: person that knows about all this stuff. And it's because
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: he's an academic. So some of these guys are really
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: like in the academic world, are very very well known,
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: and some of their books are really well received and
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: things like that. So it's really interesting to me spending
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: so much time in the occult world and in esoteric circles,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: in black magic and everything else, and then getting a
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: lot of value out of people that actually are known
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: in the academic, you know, religious study side of things.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: So oh yeah, there's some gems outres that people look
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: for them.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 4: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah exactly.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: I still haven't found, though, people who have studied the
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: material and talk about the things that I'm like particularly
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: interested in. So that's another thing that I'm trying to
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: do here is just be like, hey, no one really
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: talks about the polar thing or world access thing or whatever,
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: but that's like of supreme interest to me, So I'm
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: here talking about it.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: Hey, you'll have to become that guy man.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: So then the last slide here, the final slide controversies
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: and recent critics. This is kind of interesting to me
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: too for a lot of different reasons. But I'm not
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: really a political person, so i don't know if I'm
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: the best person to unpack all this stuff. But the
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: right wing associations are a thing. So as an example,
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: Steve Bannon, he was like an advisor to Trump. He
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: has mentioned Ganan before in interviews. Some right wingers modern
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: right far right people have mentioned crisis of the modern world, specifically,
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: usually as crisis of the modern world or revolt against
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: the modern world. Julius Evila's book or Reign of Quantity
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: and the Signs of the Times, so that has gone
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: around in these circles. So Steve Bannon is one of
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: these guys that has been associated with Gannan. This guy
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: in Russia, I think Alexander Dugan, he's been associated with
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: Gannan and he's mentioned him as well. But they're so
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: far removed from the original Ghananian path that I don't
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: really consider them to be real traditionalists personally, and they
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: have their agendas that they're sort of promoting and everything else.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: Julius Evila, like I said, he's probably one of the
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: more controversial guys. Schwan, you know, he's just these guys
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: are repeated here, funny enough. Just recently Jay Dyer, if
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: you guys know who he is, I'm sure you do,
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: probably right. He was just on Alex Jones and he
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: started his whole segment talking about the dangers of traditionalism,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: which I thought was really interesting. And the reason why
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: they consider it to be dangerous, at least I think
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: from his perspective, is because he's what people call an
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: ortho bro. Now, so he is part of the Eastern
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: Orthodox Church, the Christian Church, and basically they are some
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: of the people that are really against traditionalism, they actually
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: have gone so far as to call it demonic yep,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: or they call it the anti ri But they also
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: call everything that that's not Christian and so.
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: Hold on Orthodox. Orthodox people don't call that many things
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 3: demonic or whatever. They're more inclined to ignore that stuff.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: But for them to you know, specifically label traditionalism, which
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 3: is far more European in nature than you know, maybe
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 3: some of the other Semitic traditions, it really is kind
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: of revealing because that whole European nature of the polar
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: versus solar and all the rest of that stuff makes
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 3: them very nervous about their monopoly on those symbols, because
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 3: they are that monopoly on those symbols.
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a huge part of it. The other thing,
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: I this is just my hunch. Well, there's two main things.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: One is that the way Jay Dyer proposed it again
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: on Alex Jones, I was so surprised. I thought it
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: was really interesting that he did literally within the last
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: few weeks he did this. He basically said that, you know,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: Alex Jones is all you know about the you know,
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: busting the Kabbalists or the cabal and the Illuminati and
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: all these things, of course, and he was basically saying
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: Jay Dyer was saying that if there's a one world
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: religion that the Illuminati is pushing on people, it's going
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: to come through traditionalism, big go. And so this idea
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: of this unified sort of tradition, they're reframing it in
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: a way that are going to get people to not
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: look into it thinking that they're going to be supporting
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: the new one religion that's going to take.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 4: Over the world and everything else.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: So it's a they're to me, they're not really relaying
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: it accurately at all. And there's even yeah, there's a
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: lot that could be said about that specifically, but traditionalism
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: and gannon has recently come out of Jay Dyer's mouth.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: And then I don't know if you guys know who
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: Jason Georgohnny is. Yep, he's actually, uh, he's a character,
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: but he's a futurist philosopher and he's he's just an
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: interesting guy. But because he's a futurist, of course he's
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: not going to be into traditionalism. This guy has recently
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: made articles literally promoting the work of Michael Akino and
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: how brilliant.
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 4: Michael Akino is.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: And he's done a few other things that have been
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: very interesting and odd, but recently just really and he's
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: making the rounds.
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 4: He's on huge, huge podcasts right now.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: And yeah, he just recently talked about traditionalism too, and
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: I think he skewed the uh, he skewed the information.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: In my opinion, all of the big guys that on it,
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: they've never accurately kind of talked about it.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: Again, I think they understand that it has this universal
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: appeal and that's why they're sort of like getting out
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 3: in front of the ball, because they understand that, you know,
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: historical phases move in sort of like fads when it
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 3: comes to philosophies, and if they get put their philosophy
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: front and center, yeah they can win the next generation.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 3: But yep, yeah, yeah, not doing a good service. Again,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 3: like people have been able to sniff out when somebody's
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 3: making a hollow critique something else, there are still some
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: of those people who once they hear that hollow critique,
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 3: that's the first thing they stick with. But a lot
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 3: of people now are listening for hollow critiques and saying
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 3: I'm going to check that out. I don't trust the
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 3: guy who's talking to me. I'm going to say about
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 3: what he's talking shit.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 4: About, right right, right, Yeah.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: So I think a big part of this too, like
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: I was saying earlier, goes back to the last bulletpoint
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: that I have here, the loyalty issue is that some
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: Sufi orders they do not like traditionalism because it usurps
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: Sufism in Islam. And then the same thing with the
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: Eastern Orthodox group as well, they don't like it either
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: because it's a high like I was talking about the
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: bird's eye perspective, it gives you another vantage point in
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: which you can look at the Church and look at
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: the Bible and look at all of these different things.
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: And they obviously that doesn't work to their advantage at all.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: Like I said earlier too, a lot of people have
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: said that their traditionalist deep dive actually led them to
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: the Church, but they're still in being Christian or what
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: have you. Their loyalty is actually with traditionalism. And so
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: that's a whole entire thing, which is really fascinating to
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: know that that's like part of the dynamic.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: It's practice over doctrine. Doctrine is how they steer you
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 3: and direct you to what they want you to do.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 3: Practice is something internal, that's something that you deeply feel
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 3: within your soul. So makes sense why they would feel
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 3: so offended by it.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, exactly exactly.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: So so there you go, guys, that's what I have
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: for you.
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: That was great, man, that's awesome a lot.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, right an awesome Yeah yeah, yeah, happy
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: to do it. Like I said, it's been on my mind.
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: And so when you asked, you know, what would I
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: want to talk about, I'm like this, I have to
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: talk about this just because it's what I've been reading
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: a lot about. And I'm going to interview that Sedgewick
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: guy here pretty soon as continuing to just roll through
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: Gann books.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm gonna check out some of his stuff
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: now for sure.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah right on, man, uh, hell, is there.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: There anything you wanted to add before we wrap it up?
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 3: I love these episodes. I mean again, like, people don't
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 3: realize that philosophy is found in symbolism, and so when
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 3: they think about these occult symbols and all the rest
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 3: of this stuff, they're not associating a deep metaphysical understanding
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 3: and whereiness of the world. But once you start to
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 3: get into that mindset. It opens up huge epochs of
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 3: time that you normally don't have access to because now
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 3: you can see their art and you can understand what
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 3: they were thinking and where their head was at, and
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 3: you know how they feel about things. But unless you
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 3: get to that point, there's really no way of relating.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 3: And if if you don't get into that sort of
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 3: traditional mindset of like what if we did have a
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: traditional center in our society, how would it feel if
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 3: we had something that we revered more than anything? It
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: changes your perspective on how they would feel towards the
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: world and the sacredness of it. So you know, you
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 3: can kind of feel it in yourself. But you can
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: find me on Twitter at the Headless Giant and on
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 3: YouTube as well Instagram. I post there sometimes, but I've
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 3: got several shows. Check them out. Hit the bell on
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 3: YouTube and I will see you there. Thank you.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Thank you very much. Hadless Mario. If you don't mind,
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: if you want, let everybody know where they can find
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: all you have stuff again please.
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, of course, So Symbolic Studies dot com.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: You can find all my links there. I'm on Patreon,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: check out the podcast, check out my short videos. I
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: think Instagram is a really great place to find those videos.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: Twitter to, but yeah, thanks for the opportunity. This is something,
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: like I said, I don't think I would have proposed
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: this to a lot of other channels, but I know
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: you guys are good for it, and you guys have
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: explored like so much information, and you guys are you know,
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: mature with like people's like input and insights and things
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: like that. So if people are really on the symbolic path,
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: the main thing I can say is I got a
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 2: lot out of exploring this material, and so that is
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: the main main reason why I'm talking about it is
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: because of symbolism, not because of anything else, all of
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: the other stuff that we talked about. It's almost like
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: an inadvertent sort of thing that I found myself reading
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: about and getting interested in. But just from a purely
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: symbolic standpoint, it's like these guys are like some of them,
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: and especially Gannan, obviously it's like the gold standard in
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: my opinion. And so now as I move forward in
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: my symbolic journey, it's going to be how whatever symbolist
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: I read, how they stack up against this material, and
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: is it as sound right? Is there an actual real
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: structure here that I can actually sort of use, so
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: that's kind of the main thing. But yeah, thanks man,
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: this is fun.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: Hell yeah, no, definitely, it definitely was, and chat looked
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: like they enjoyed it. I mean the chat was lit,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: so right, I appreciate it, man, Yeah, for sure, for sure. Uh,
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: thank you again, ahead, listen, thank you Mario for coming on.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: It was a bless and thank you everybody in the chat.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: That's what's up. I appreciate it. And Fred Rci thank
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: you very much for the ten dollars and definitely check
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: out that link I threw up for that event that
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: he's he's working at. Yeah. That is the end of
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: another Occult Rejects and until the next one, everybody be well.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: Lada