Latest / All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting / 112. TBT: Raising resilient children and breaking trauma cycles with Kathleen Sullivan

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112. TBT: Raising resilient children and breaking trauma cycles with Kathleen Sullivan · All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting

0:00
Welcome back to the All figured out podcast.
0:02
My name is Andrea Barr. Thank you so much for joining me
0:05
again this week. And if you didn't TuneIn last
0:08
week and you are hearing this message or if you're hearing
0:11
this again, we are on a bit of a break.
0:13
And so I am rerunning some of your favorite episodes that have
0:16
ever aired and this one will not disappoint.
0:20
Like last week, I'll give you a bit of an update on this guest
0:23
and where she's at now. Kathleen Sullivan is a beautiful
0:26
soul and she is a nurse practitioner and she was talking
0:30
to us last time about raising resilient children in her
0:33
experience working in Pediatrics for years.
0:36
And now I am very happy to say she is a mother.
0:40
And though this isn't an update on her currently, this is from
0:44
episode 39, so quite a few episodes ago, a couple years
0:47
ago. The message that Kathleen shares
0:49
about raising resilient children is absolutely timeless.
0:53
And so if you haven't had the chance to meet Kathleen on the
0:57
episode 39 episode, I'm So oh, you might be hearing my children
1:01
in the background here. This is real life.
1:05
You know what? I'm gonna keep that in.
1:07
So if you haven't heard this episode with Kathleen, episode
1:10
39, I'm so excited to rerun this for you here.
1:13
And I hope you enjoy. Happy holidays.
1:18
You're listening to the All Figured Out podcast.
1:20
I'm your host, Andrea Barr. I'm a career coach for parents,
1:26
mom of two, and a self-proclaimed expert at
1:29
winging it. I've learned one thing, No
1:31
parent has it all figured out and that's OK.
1:35
So grab a coffee or hide in your car for some knee time.
1:38
We're about to figure out this work, life and parenting stuff
1:41
out together. Before we dive into today's
1:45
episode, I've got something very exciting for you to celebrate
1:49
the holidays and to thank you for being a part of this
1:51
community. I am running a special giveaway.
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Here's how it works. Leave me a written review on
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Screenshot it. Head over to
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You will immediately that my 5 Steps to Career Clarity guide
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win a 90 minute strategy session with me that you can use in
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January New Year New Me Vest. If you want a second entry,
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leave a comment on Spotify and upload that screenshot to the
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forum as well. If you do both of these things,
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you've got two chances to win. I will be announcing the winner
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on the episode coming out on January 8th.
2:43
I am so excited to hear what is resonating with you and I want
2:48
to thank you in advance. Alright, let's get into the
2:50
show. Kathleen Sullivan, thank you so
2:56
much for joining me on the All Figured out podcast today.
2:58
I'm so pumped to have you here. I'm so excited to be here.
3:02
Thank you for having me. Thank you for.
3:03
Coming. So Kathleen, you and I have
3:06
known each other for, I'm just thinking about it, 6, maybe 7
3:10
years. We met through our mutual pal
3:12
Melissa when we both moved out here, both from Ontario, both
3:16
now live in BC, didn't know each other before.
3:19
And I have got to bear witness to a really incredible career
3:23
journey that you've had. So for those who want to learn
3:26
more about your career journey, there's been some twists and
3:29
turns and it's all just been heartwarming.
3:32
Give us the story, OK? Perfect.
3:34
So I think when I met you, so I have moved out here and I
3:38
started out as a nurse and I worked in Pediatrics.
3:41
So I have two major children, children's hospitals, and when I
3:45
met you was kind of around the time that I was looking at my
3:49
what was next and what education I wanted to pursue.
3:53
And I believe actually at that time when you were going through
3:56
your schooling for coaching, one of your classmates I worked with
4:00
a bit just to figure out what direction I wanted to go into.
4:04
I forgot about. That.
4:06
Which was helpful and she's actually the one that, so I was
4:10
looking at different options that nurses had available and
4:13
trying to figure out what the best path for me would be.
4:16
And she was kind of, she was a pharmacist by trade, I believe
4:20
and doing coaching program. And we kind of went through, we
4:24
talked a lot about the Michaels where and what I was really
4:26
interested in. And one of the big themes was
4:30
that I really wanted to maintain clinical practice and stay
4:33
involved clinically and different ways to do that until
4:36
we started looking at the nurse practitioner program and I
4:39
applied shortly after and was accepted and started that.
4:42
So actually you're a big part of why I am where I am now, which
4:48
is. Really.
4:49
Yeah. So cool.
4:51
So you did, Yes. You went back to school.
4:53
So you were in your, what, late 20s and made a big career pivot.
4:59
How was that experience? Absolutely.
5:01
So I think I, I initially was kind of humming and hawing about
5:05
it because nurse practitioners are newer in BC and they're
5:08
newer, newer overall. So it's a role that was still
5:11
evolving and but it was something that I don't know I
5:16
was very interested in because I, I loved nursing.
5:18
Nursing I actually also accidentally fell into, I knew I
5:24
wanted to do some type of healthcare, but I wasn't sure
5:26
what. And I remember I think in high
5:28
school, my mom was like, well, you have to apply for a third
5:31
thing and they really want to go to Queens and just like you have
5:34
to apply for a third one anyways, why don't you apply for
5:36
nursing? And I was like, oh, I'm not
5:37
sure. And I didn't apply for it.
5:39
And then part way through school, I was like, Hey, I heard
5:43
about this school program and I'd already started her Bachelor
5:46
of Science and you do the nursing program in a condensed
5:48
format and thought it was really, I thought it was
5:51
interesting because the clinical placements and spent time with
5:54
patients and got accepted and did that.
5:57
So I kind of fell into it a bit unconventionally and, and I
6:01
think it was a really great fit for me and my personality and
6:05
stamp and I worked with children for many years and, and really
6:09
high intensity areas and met some of the most incredible
6:13
people and had great experiences.
6:15
And then I was just looking at how I wanted to advance my
6:18
career and what was next. And the nurse practitioner
6:21
program, because it was evolving to had a lot of really neat
6:23
components in it for me. And so I decided to go back to
6:26
school. And so there's a few different
6:28
ways you can do it, but the full time route, which is what most
6:31
people tend to do is you go back and you do your masters degree
6:34
along with your nurse practitioner certificate and
6:37
it's two years, fairly intensive.
6:40
And so I completed that in British Columbia and started
6:45
working as an MP. Oh my gosh, incredible.
6:48
And if anybody, those who know Kathleen know that you were,
6:50
it's funny that you did not set out to become a nurse from the
6:53
day you were born because you are a nurse through and through.
6:58
I picture you to be on like the news one day and be like the
7:02
head nurse of Canada. That's just that's who you are
7:05
to be. I'm like you.
7:06
You are the nurse. You are, but now you're the
7:09
nurse practitioner. Yeah.
7:11
Yeah, yeah. And it.
7:12
Was one of those things that when I started placements and
7:14
then I started my first job and my first job was back in Toronto
7:18
and I, I loved it and it was such a great fit.
7:21
And I feel very lucky that I came across it and yeah, yeah,
7:26
yeah. And it's, I don't know, nursing
7:29
there is nurses, it's been a tough few years for nurses, I
7:31
think with everything. But I still think as a
7:34
profession, it's incredible. And can we do so many different
7:37
ways and there's so many routes and there's kind of a path for
7:39
everyone depending on those are? And I like how you're kind of
7:43
talking about it from the perspective of you actually
7:45
really enjoyed the career that you had.
7:46
But you keep saying like, but I wanted to see where I could go
7:50
next. And clearly growth and
7:51
development is a huge value of yours.
7:53
So you were like, it's not that I hated the work that I was
7:56
doing. I just wanted to continue to
7:58
move forward. And you probably hit your
7:59
plateau a bit in the area you were or or maybe just didn't
8:04
want to become your boss's boss's boss in that line.
8:07
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, that was kind
8:08
of day where I was looking at yeah, just different and just
8:11
kind of future planning and what I what I wanted.
8:14
And there's I, I love my job before I went into NP school and
8:19
I love the people I worked with in our patients.
8:21
And, but it was, it was hard too, because we saw a really
8:24
challenging and hard things and, and there's a lot of development
8:28
that you can have within a hospital or within the area that
8:31
was in. And, but I really liked the path
8:34
of going to be in nurse practitioner of really good
8:37
friend of mine had started school a few years before.
8:39
So I got a bit of insight though.
8:41
But the schooling was like, and the training program and just
8:44
different job opportunities that were coming up and they seemed
8:47
really neat. And I think one of my other big
8:50
things too is I've always been interested in leadership and
8:53
education and I was football that I would be able to find
8:58
something where I could fuse the 2 and.
9:02
Yeah, and you did? And I did, yeah.
9:05
So now I'm so I'm half time clinical and the other part of
9:10
my time, I'm in a leadership role now.
9:12
So I get to focus on developing education programs.
9:16
So we're making a residency program for urgent care NP's.
9:19
And so I'm working on that right now and I'm supporting our
9:23
different nurse practitioners. And yeah, and I'm, I'm just
9:26
starting in the role, but it's been great so far.
9:29
Wow, Congrats. And I know that the work that
9:31
you do, you said on a clinical side is with youth in mental
9:35
health and substance abuse, which is incredible work, I
9:38
imagine. Yeah, absolutely.
9:40
And yeah. And so I feel like I'm, I'm
9:43
newer in this area in the last few years and it's to me, it's
9:48
an area that's very impactful. And a lot of these young people
9:52
that we see have been through extraordinarily challenging
9:55
circumstances and they're developing a lot of resources to
10:00
help out these young people. And there's a lot more that kind
10:04
of development in the area of how we can support these young
10:06
people. And it's I everyone I think
10:09
remembers what it's like being a teenager or a young adult, and
10:13
there's so many changes and it can be a really tough time.
10:17
And then add on what some of these people have also been
10:20
through these experiences and be an incredibly difficult time.
10:24
And so being able to kind of support them and try and help
10:27
them through that is it's really meaningful at least, Yeah.
10:32
Trauma. Trauma.
10:34
Yeah. T little T Trauma.
10:36
Trauma. We hear the word a lot as a, a
10:41
layperson, I'm yeah, like I think I know what trauma is.
10:45
But I would say that my immediate reaction would be if
10:48
we were to be talking about trauma.
10:50
And I'm bringing this up because you have special interests in
10:53
trauma. And it's kind of shaping what
10:54
we're going to discuss today around building resilience for
10:56
children and what happens if, you know, adverse childhood
10:59
experiences come into play. So if we were to just talk about
11:04
trauma, you know, in a general sense, when I hear that word, I
11:08
think like blunt force trauma to the head or like, you know, God
11:11
forbid a car accident or something like, or a really, you
11:16
know, horrific experience as a child, like in an abuse setting
11:19
or something like that. These are the things that come
11:21
to mind. What is, is that what trauma is?
11:23
Are there different? Is there a spectrum, which I
11:26
kind of imagine is maybe what you're going to say?
11:28
What is it? Yeah.
11:29
And so it can definitely be a spectrum.
11:31
So it can be that kind of, so it can be a car accident that
11:36
happens or a type of abuse. And it can also be, it can show
11:41
up in ways like neglect or being around mental illness.
11:45
And so it's essentially it's an experience, not all chat.
11:48
So it's an experience that is challenging, that has lasting
11:51
impacts. Not all challenging experiences
11:53
are going to be traumatic to each person, but every
11:56
challenging experience has the ability to become something
11:59
traumatic and it can be small things that can cause trauma
12:03
overtime. So it's not necessarily one kind
12:05
of landslide event, or it could be a landslide event.
12:08
So trauma is kind of anything. So any, how I try to phrase it
12:14
to my patients is and and generally people are pretty
12:18
comfortable with the idea or definition of trauma, but
12:21
something that feels traumatic and it's had a lasting
12:23
experience on you with residual impacts or a really significant
12:26
event in your life. OK, that's I like that way.
12:30
That seems like a really easy, palatable way to understand.
12:37
Even with I mean with everyone's human experiences.
12:39
So I, I don't know exactly what all my patients have gone
12:44
through and there are many experiences that I don't know
12:48
and don't understand that might have happened to them that could
12:51
have lasting impacts in the traumatic can't kind of open.
12:56
I think it's important. OK.
12:59
And then so really, but the reason why we decided to frame
13:04
up this conversation today and to to tie this up is because you
13:07
have recently joined a working group with the doctors of BC
13:11
specifically related to adverse childhood experiences, which
13:16
kind of play in conjunction with trauma as you were just defining
13:20
it. So ACES is the acronym think
13:24
that that's a cool, that's a powerful, that's a really
13:26
powerful acronym there. Adverse childhood experiences.
13:30
Um, that means trauma or, or what does that mean?
13:35
Yeah. So, yeah, so.
13:37
The, the working group that I'm in so is formed by doctors of BC
13:39
and they're, they're looking at childhood trauma and how that
13:42
impacts health. And we'll, we'll get into it a
13:44
bit more about the impacts that that can have and then what some
13:47
of the kind of protective and supportive factors are against
13:51
trauma and how we can prevent. And so for the working group
13:56
there, their ultimate goals are to kind of spread the word to
13:59
make sure that people are well informed about this and then
14:02
make sure that people also know the different resources that are
14:05
available and that are out there.
14:07
And, and so with that, so we there speaking Med students with
14:12
NP students and at various conferences.
14:15
And yeah, so they're, they're doing quite a bit of work and
14:19
trying to just get the word there a little bit more and
14:22
educate people more about what what the impact of adverse
14:26
childhood experiences are. So where adverse childhood
14:29
experiences originated from was a study that was done by Doctor
14:34
Vincent Falletti. It was in 1998.
14:36
And so it was a study that was initially done with Kaiser
14:42
Permanente staff. So it's in California and they
14:45
looked at about 17,000 people. And this, these study
14:47
originated, they were working with patients on obesity
14:52
initially. And as they're going through the
14:53
study, they realize that a lot of their patients had also
14:57
experienced significant trauma and they thought it was a way
15:01
higher percentage than what they would have expected for the
15:03
general population. And the initial study was also
15:06
done on middle to upper class Caucasian people, so that they
15:10
were pretty surprised by the amount of people that were
15:12
reporting trauma. So they decided to study it.
15:14
And so they looked at 17,000 people and they found that and
15:18
they looked at traumatic experiences like they found that
15:21
over 60% of people have experienced at least one adverse
15:24
childhood experience. So over half have experienced
15:27
this, about 25%. So quarter had experience two or
15:32
more and then 12 1/2% had at least 4 adverse childhood
15:36
experiences. So they initially collected all
15:39
the information on what what they thought the most common
15:43
adverse childhood experiences were and they came up with 10
15:46
that were included in the initial study.
15:48
Now it's been broadened since, but the initial time were
15:51
emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse and emotional
15:55
neglect, physical neglect and witnessing domestic violence in
15:58
the household. Having a family member or
16:01
someone in the home with substance abuse and having
16:04
someone in the home with mental illness and having someone in
16:08
the home as part of the criminal system or when it's in criminal
16:12
activity. And then the other one, which is
16:13
a very common one as well is divorce.
16:17
And so those were the initial 10 that they looked at.
16:20
However, since they've broadened this, so the, I mean, the the
16:26
list is inclusive now of poverty, of bullying, A
16:31
traumatic loss of a loved one, serious accidents, life
16:35
threatening childhood illness or injury and natural disasters and
16:39
being in refugee camp, terrorism, war.
16:42
And it's not a that list isn't all-encompassing of everything
16:46
that can be traumatic. Yeah.
16:49
Right, Because you said previously that you could have
16:52
something that would be deemed by society potentially as
16:55
something just a small thing that happened to you.
16:57
You internalize it as traumatic. Yeah, it can be.
17:00
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
17:02
And, and even, I mean, that can be smaller events that happen in
17:07
a household of yeah, just not having emotional needs being met
17:11
over and over. And yeah.
17:13
And So what they found is they looked at all these adverse
17:16
childhood experiences and they realized there was a dose
17:19
dependent relationship. So the amount of trauma that you
17:21
endure affects your likelihood of getting different health
17:24
conditions over lifetime. And when we look at all the
17:28
different health conditions that they noticed a correlation to,
17:31
it's a lot of the common ones that we see later on in life.
17:35
So people that have experienced for more adverse childhood
17:39
experience were almost 2 times as likely to get diagnosed with
17:42
diabetes, 2 times as likely to have cancer, 2 times as likely
17:45
to have heart disease, over 2 times more likely to have a
17:49
stroke, and almost 4 times as likely to have COPD, which is
17:54
respiratory disease that we generally see later in life.
17:57
It's usually associated with smoking, but can be from mine
18:00
exposure working over large stools.
18:03
And they found a large correlation in those that had
18:06
experienced comma and mental health issues later on.
18:09
So depression and anxiety had a four fold increase the chance of
18:13
becoming dependent on and or having issues with alcohol use
18:18
with seven times more likely and significant increases in
18:23
learning and behavioral difficulties, especially if the
18:25
trauma occurs before the age of 5, so.
18:28
Whoa. So it's a lot of significant
18:32
health impacts. And so the interesting thing
18:36
too. So as this was coming up, so I
18:37
first, I think I came across this when I was in school and I
18:42
did my capstone project on it in school.
18:44
So I spent a lot of time reading about it and researching it.
18:48
And then in the areas that I practice in now, a lot of a lot
18:52
of my patients have significant trauma from their past.
18:55
And so initially when the study came out and people were
18:59
recognizing Aces, there was a thought that we should be
19:02
screening every patient for Aces knowing what their ACE score
19:04
was. So having people do a
19:06
questionnaire that establishes what the score was.
19:08
But now the thought is that knowing someone's score isn't
19:14
always as helpful, but knowing kind of the resources and the
19:18
preventative measures and those instead and directing patients
19:22
in that way can be more helpful and also a bit of an
19:25
understanding too. So if we know that someone's had
19:27
a really strong history of trauma then and you're their
19:31
primary care provider, being more aware that they're more
19:35
likely to be have diabetes or have heart disease.
19:38
And so being really good about different screening measures and
19:42
prevention measures for that can be important as well.
19:45
So, and we're not just talking about mental health here like
19:48
this, my mind is blown. And you have talked about this
19:50
before, but this is really just like this is actually blowing my
19:53
mind. And so they actually found they
19:55
found that as you go through these traumatic experiences.
19:59
So our stress responses are wired that we see and.
20:04
We live in BC, so we see a bear are, you know, our heart rate
20:09
goes up, our blood pressure goes up or more alert and the blood
20:12
is redirected from our stomach. So we're not focusing on, you
20:17
know, the the less important bodily functions aren't the
20:22
focus of our body. And we're alert her, you know,
20:25
we're ready to take action. We're ready to run away or hide
20:27
or whatever is. Fight or flight?
20:29
Exactly. So the fight or flight response,
20:31
but then if you look at someone that's experiencing trauma, then
20:34
that flight or fight response is happening over and over.
20:37
So instead of, you know, it being inappropriate increase in
20:41
all those important for epinephrine or norepinephrine,
20:44
an increase in all of those when you're and, and well, not always
20:50
abnormal for PC people, but you know, you see it there and that
20:53
happens in that instance to help you.
20:55
But then if you're in an experience where without there
21:00
or that scary thing is in your home, your body is constantly
21:03
going to be going through that fight or flight response and
21:05
you're going to have that stress response.
21:07
So they found that they can actually having traumatic
21:12
experiences and has physiological effects.
21:16
So it can shrink your hippocampus, which can impair
21:19
your memory and emotional regulation.
21:22
Your amygdala, which is also pretty programme, also has
21:24
dysfunction. So you are more likely to have
21:26
impulsive behavior. It affects your fear response
21:29
centre, so it can hide in your fear response and your synaptic
21:33
connection. So in between your neurons, you
21:36
have fewer of those. So your brain isn't
21:38
communicating as it should be. And there's epigenetic changes,
21:41
there's changes that can actually be passed down in
21:44
between generations. So if someone's maternal grandma
21:49
experienced trauma, some of those changes and the likelihood
21:52
for these health risks can also get passed on to an offspring
21:56
that wasn't born on that time. And there's dysregulation of
22:00
your metabolic system and you might have issues with your,
22:04
your gut and your GI system as well.
22:06
And so, yeah. And they also, they looked at
22:10
and for children, they looked at people that had asthma and they
22:15
were less responsive to conventional treatments.
22:18
And with trauma, they're more likely to experience treatment
22:22
refractory depression. But there's one study that they
22:25
looked at a so they did a randomized control trial of
22:28
orphans living in Romania and they looked at their EG, which
22:31
is, and so on. EG is essentially a lot of
22:36
stickers that get placed on the brain and it looks at the brain
22:38
waves and they use it a lot in seizure disorders.
22:41
So they found that on the children and this companies that
22:45
have been exposed to adversity had immature and EEG patterns.
22:49
So they weren't as developed as they should be for their age.
22:52
And they also found that the longer they stayed in
22:54
institutionalized care part of the brain.
22:56
So they're white matter matured slower and they they found they
23:01
could actually predict someone's family income to their needs
23:05
ratio by based on examining the white and Gray matter and what
23:08
the difference was based off of the age for the children.
23:11
And then they did a study where they assigned these children in
23:17
the orphanage to high quality care, so high quality foster
23:22
parents and that provided kind of loving, supportive homes.
23:25
And, and then they compared it to those that had stayed in the
23:28
orphanage and that didn't have that.
23:30
And they found that those that had high quality care before the
23:33
age of 2 and their EG, which is the brain patterns that they
23:37
looked at and there was actually looked completely normal
23:40
compared to their peers that had not subjected any trauma early
23:43
on in life. And so experiencing trauma has
23:47
huge impacts on health, I think from the role of a healthcare
23:51
provider knowing exactly, I mean, if if someone is willing
23:55
or wants to speak about that and what's been traumatic, we can
23:58
listen to that. But I think what's more
23:59
important is trying to prevent Trump and then also supportive
24:03
resources for those that have experienced trauma and how we
24:05
can kind of prevent the cycle of trauma continuing to go.
24:09
And a lot of that comes down to social resources that are
24:12
available. Oh my gosh.
24:14
OK, so let's so thank you for explaining all of that.
24:17
Sometimes mental health can be a hard thing to maybe wrap your
24:20
head around, especially for those who have not experienced
24:23
anything with health, mental health, whether with themselves
24:25
or others. But sometimes when it's like
24:26
this could really have a negative impact on your mental
24:28
health. I just find sometimes that's not
24:30
compelling enough for some people.
24:32
But you are stating some really, really important and kind of
24:36
scary physiological like outcomes of this.
24:39
Now, if we like just slam our hand down and say, OK, sometimes
24:45
unfortunately this has happened and somebody might be listening,
24:48
feels like they have experienced an adverse childhood experience
24:51
trauma or God forbid their children have already in their
24:56
life. Can you reassure us?
24:59
Can you reassure us that we can break the cycle that there is
25:03
treatment for trauma? Like what can be done?
25:05
And then I want to get into protective factors, but let's
25:07
just like, yeah, let's just like squash the fears that I know are
25:12
popping up in people's minds right now as we talk about this
25:14
because it's heavy. And we talked about this before.
25:16
Like this is gonna be a heavy topic, but how can we look
25:18
forward and find the light in this situation?
25:21
Yeah, absolutely. And so, and it's with, I mean,
25:24
especially with traumatic experiences and challenging
25:27
experiences are almost inevitable even for someone
25:30
that's in a home that has has all of the good social things.
25:34
If parents get divorced, that can be a traumatic thing.
25:36
Or if, you know, there's a natural disaster, there's a
25:39
fire, there's something, something could happen or
25:42
bullying happens, right? There's a lot of things that are
25:44
out of control. So as human beings, most of us
25:48
will go through some challenging experiences, right?
25:50
Some of us go through a lot of challenging experiences.
25:53
And some people have kind of an unfair hand that's still to
25:57
them. But they found that not every
25:59
parent or biological parent is going to be the one that's going
26:02
to be supportive or that's going to be able to meet the needs of
26:05
the child at the time. But they found that even just
26:08
having kind of 1 supportive adult figure helps provide a
26:11
supportive relationship can make a huge difference.
26:13
And then also by building secure attachments, you build
26:16
resilience and your children to be able to handle these
26:18
challenging things to go through.
26:20
Now, if trauma has occurred. And so there's different types
26:24
of therapy, psychotherapy, So talk therapy or conventional
26:27
therapy can be really helpful for some, but it's not helpful
26:29
for everyone. And for trauma, it's can be
26:32
helpful, but not always. And there's a new type of
26:35
therapy called, well, not new. It's, I think it's becoming more
26:39
popular now it's called EMDR. EMDR.
26:42
So it's in movement desensitization, reprocessing
26:45
and how it works as they, and there's certain clinicians that
26:49
are able to conduct this, but it's through improvements and it
26:53
helps your brain kind of reprocess what's happened to
26:56
kind of move on from the trauma and have it be less triggering.
27:00
So there's different types of therapy that are available.
27:03
And and then you have the big thing is having making sure that
27:09
children have a secure adult that they can rely on and that
27:12
they can depend on. And so with that, if you so say
27:16
a child has experienced something potentially traumatic
27:19
and say there a 5 year old or something like that.
27:22
And you talked a lot about some of the scary things that can
27:26
kind of happen later in life, like the likelihood of XYZ say a
27:30
traumatic, like maybe there's been a neglectful parent or
27:33
neglectful set of parents in this child's life.
27:35
But then somebody does come into their life and provides that
27:38
support and the nurturing home or care or just is a really
27:41
great figure. Can you start to reduce some of
27:44
those risk factors? Yeah, absolutely.
27:46
And so, yeah. And so kind of providing that,
27:51
surviving that protective, yeah, that protective resource can be
27:56
really helpful for children. OK, yeah, OK.
28:01
OK, so there's not a lot. And then I also have to ask for
28:04
somebody who's listening, who's like, well, I'm, you know, 35
28:07
years old at this point. And I did have, you know, some
28:11
crap happened to me when I was younger.
28:14
And I know that sometimes people can feel a bit of fear around.
28:18
Like, is history going to repeat itself?
28:20
Does this mean I'm broken? But can they also, you know,
28:24
break that pattern in that cycle and be reassured that they're
28:28
not broken? Absolutely.
28:30
And nobody is broken and nobody is broken.
28:33
And there is, yeah, there's a lot about now about breaking the
28:36
cycle because a lot of the time, and if if you think about it
28:39
makes sense to someone's grown up in a household that had to
28:42
watch challenges or there was abuse or there is alcohol use,
28:45
there is something like that. And they saw a lot of
28:47
challenging things. When they grow up, they feel,
28:51
you know, they feel unsupported and then maybe they turn to
28:54
substances, alcohol as well to help cope with all the
28:56
challenging things. And then that continues on.
28:59
But there are ways to what we call can break the cycle where
29:03
there's helpful things. So getting into SO and it
29:06
depends with every person is individual.
29:08
So what every person needs is going to be unique.
29:11
So whether that's therapy and getting into EMDR and EMDR and
29:16
whether it's building connection within your community and, or
29:20
whether it's finding a different way to parent than how you were
29:23
parented and providing for your children that childhood that you
29:27
didn't have the chance to have. And there's a lot now to on
29:31
there. There's a lot of more great
29:32
resources out there. So there's a few books, there's
29:35
one by Ken Hoffman and it's on raising a secure child.
29:37
So there's the different attachment theories.
29:40
And so depending, depending on how you're raised can affect the
29:45
attachment style that you have. And this is your attachment to
29:47
other people and it, and it can impact your attachment to other
29:51
relationships further down. So depending on what your
29:54
relationship is like as a child and growing up, that can affect
29:57
your relationship with your, your partner, your friends, the
29:59
people later in your life. And so it would be 4 attachment
30:02
styles. There's secure attachment,
30:04
anxious attachment, dismissive avoidant and fearful avoidant.
30:08
And I don't know, did you take psychology in?
30:11
This is ringing a bell. And so they talked about and
30:14
they, they looked at a study of where they had toddlers and the
30:17
parents stepped out of the room and then they looked at house
30:19
and the toddlers behaved. And depending on the attachment
30:22
styles and what their relationship was like, that
30:25
toddlers would behave in different ways.
30:27
And so the best attachment style is a secure one.
30:30
And there's a quote from the Kent Hoffman book.
30:33
A secure attachment is confidence and trust in the
30:36
goodness of me, you and us. So they feel good and confident
30:40
and like they can rely on that other person.
30:43
And then that return leads them to feel like they can rely on
30:48
themselves and trust themselves and get through things.
30:50
So through a lot of that. So some of the tips from this
30:54
book are so showing interest in your child and your child or
30:57
your children and what they're doing can be really supportive
31:00
and validating their feelings as well.
31:03
And then building confidence that they can go through and do
31:06
hard things and offering freedom to explore and engaging in
31:09
creativity, making sure that there's no conditions on the
31:13
love, that I don't just love you as you're smart and you're good
31:16
at soccer, but because of who you are.
31:18
And yeah. Oh my goodness, OK, it's so good
31:21
to get back to some of those just basics.
31:23
Like as you know, there's so much information out there and
31:26
it gets complicated and confusing and it's kind of like
31:29
when you I listen to tons of podcasts, obviously.
31:31
And you know, it's always like get good.
31:33
Like when you're talking about just health, like I could sleep,
31:36
drink water. It's it all seems so basic, but
31:38
but it's helpful to be reminded, like it's helpful to be reminded
31:41
that validate your kids feel is that just yeah, you're in the
31:45
throes of it. You're not sleeping, you're
31:47
having a bad day yourself and you're like, how do like, what
31:50
am I come back to? What's my life raft for being a
31:53
good parent? The foundational pieces.
31:54
It's just helpful to to hear those again.
31:57
Also with it, with developing a secure attachment, you don't
32:00
have to be perfect and nobody's perfect and you're not going to
32:04
be on 100% of the time. And but if you, you know, are,
32:07
are short with your child, which everyone is going to be at some
32:10
point, and if you are or you know, if you snap at them, just
32:16
the ability to apologize and apologize and quickly so that
32:19
they know. And then they and that also
32:21
gives your child a sense that it's OK to not be perfect and
32:27
how to handle that because that's a huge part of being
32:28
human and getting through. Life is that.
32:32
Yeah. And it's like, how can we
32:33
constantly nag our kids about manners when they don't see that
32:37
modeled? I find it so funny.
32:39
Like, there's a lot of Yeah, it's interesting.
32:41
It's interesting like the I'm not going to admit faults.
32:44
Like if you stepped like I stepped on my daughter's toe the
32:47
other day and she was like, oh, mommy.
32:48
And I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
32:50
Like I'm sorry. Or, you know, we have to leave
32:53
the park. I'm not apologizing for leaving
32:55
the park, but I'm validating that she's upset that we have to
32:57
leave the park every single day. But you know, it's it's like,
33:01
yeah, we had so much fun at the park.
33:02
It's hard to leave. And you know, some days they
33:05
like get the wording wrong or I say sorry, what?
33:08
I don't mean sorry. You know, they're like always
33:10
playing around with it. But as long as I think the
33:12
intention, it seems to be important as well.
33:15
Um, resilience. We hear a lot about that word
33:18
and I know that that's a key piece.
33:21
And a lot of that, like a lot of this in building, building up
33:24
children to, you know, live their best lives.
33:27
And it's, you know, we want to it's kind of busy almost maybe a
33:30
bit of a buzzword. Like we want our children to
33:32
grow up with resilience. What does, how does that play
33:35
into this? Yeah.
33:37
Is it different than what we're talking about?
33:39
How do we create and build up resilient children?
33:42
Yeah. And I agree with you.
33:43
I still like it is it is a bit of a buzzword, A resilience, but
33:48
what does it actually mean? And I think I mean for, yeah, I
33:53
would say like that they have the confidence that they can get
33:57
through hard things and they have the tools that are there
34:01
and they don't necessarily have to have all the answers, but
34:03
that they can get through challenging times and.
34:07
I like that they don't necessarily have to.
34:09
It's not like we have to give our kids all the answers.
34:12
I don't know. But they feel resourceful enough
34:14
to seek out whether it's, you know, that old story about like,
34:18
hey, I'll be the fun aunt who like, you can call if there's
34:20
somebody who's about to like, drive drunk.
34:23
Like, it's like one of the resources.
34:24
Like, OK, I'm going to use my brain and be like, this is a
34:27
terrible idea. This is a bad situation I've
34:29
ended myself up in. However, I have the tools.
34:32
I don't know if that's a good example, but like giving them
34:35
tools, not answers. Absolutely and building up,
34:39
building up that they are able to start to navigate the world
34:42
because as you're, I mean when your children are young, they
34:45
rely on you for so much and then.
34:48
They're so needy, yes. Yeah, dog trainer that we have.
34:55
So your massive, massive, massive, adorable dog.
34:58
So she's so funny. So she and I will also say this
35:00
just linger too, because we, I'm not a parent yet.
35:03
We we hope to be someday. But yeah, I'm not, I'm not a
35:08
parent. So a lot of this is just from
35:09
this is just from my like my readings and my experience and
35:12
work. That's.
35:13
Coming 10 years doing Yeah, you, you can, you can tell us the
35:19
things even though you're not apparent.
35:21
You can of all the things. The trainer that we have and
35:25
she's the best. Oh my gosh, she's great.
35:28
And so she, when we first got our Poppy because he knew he was
35:33
going to be massive, you're like, oh, we we wanted to be
35:36
well trained. So we brought her into the 11 on
35:38
one in our home. And she was so funny because she
35:41
sat us down and she goes, OK, do you wanna have kids?
35:45
And both my partner and I were like, yeah, we do want to have
35:47
kids like the next few years culturally.
35:50
And she's like, all right, you get this, right, raising a dog,
35:54
it's like you'll be excellent parents.
35:56
It's all we're like, OK, alright, well, we'll see
36:00
anyways. But so she was, she was talking
36:02
on one of her sessions. So we did all the puppy classes
36:04
and stuff and she was talking. She's like your goal as a
36:07
parent, but human children is you want them to leave home
36:11
eventually. You want to build them up and
36:13
then grow and they're confident and they take on the world by
36:15
themselves. You want them to want to leave
36:17
home. That's your goal.
36:19
And then she turned around. She's like, you want your dog to
36:21
come home. You don't want them to run away.
36:25
That's a big difference between this.
36:27
But a lot of yeah. And a lot of yeah.
36:31
The resilience is just building them into confident, secure
36:34
humans that are able to tackle the challenges of the world.
36:38
And there will inevitably be some There's.
36:41
There's another book, I don't know if you've read it, but it's
36:44
by Dan Siegel. He's a child psychiatrist
36:48
spending a bunch of this. I don't know where he's from.
36:49
He somewhere in the States. And I'm going to link, I'll link
36:52
all these resources because Kathleen is going to continue to
36:54
share and I'm going to forget everything.
36:56
So we'll link all the resources so you can people can go and
36:59
find them after. Yeah.
37:01
One of my colleagues that's also in the working group with
37:03
doctors PC, so she was speaking about this on a podcast that she
37:07
had done and I thought it was so great.
37:09
So it's on the power of showing up and it's about parenting.
37:12
And there's 4S that they say of kind of your goals for
37:15
parenting. So the first one is safe, that
37:19
you want to keep them safe. You want to make them feel safe.
37:24
And then your second one is Sean.
37:25
So making sure that there is understanding that you're
37:28
responding to them and then you want to soothe them.
37:31
So your present. So and then they said when
37:33
challenging things happen as a parent, you want to be present.
37:37
You want to have engagement with them and still show them
37:40
affection, calm and have empathy.
37:42
And then your last one is you want them to be secure as they
37:45
grow up. So safe scene suits and secure.
37:48
How do we make our kids feel secure in situations where like,
37:52
we won't always be there? And so I think a lot of that too
37:56
from and it's giving kids the chance to explore and be
38:02
creative and giving them that, starting to give them that
38:05
freedom and, and letting them do things on their own because that
38:08
also builds their confidence that they can do these things
38:10
and start to tackle harder and harder things.
38:12
And then like a bit of a longer leash, the dog analogy like
38:18
that, like I was, we were scootering, we were scootering.
38:21
I was not on the scooter. Addie was scootering.
38:23
She's getting really good. I mean, there's parents are kind
38:26
of annoying when they're like, Oh my God, my daughter is a
38:28
genius. Addie is a genius.
38:29
She is rocking this scooter like it's nobody's business.
38:32
It's like it happened overnight anyways, man, she bailed so many
38:36
times on her little knees on the asphalt.
38:39
And I was one of them. I actually caught her mid air
38:41
and I was like, oh, that was good because I think she was
38:43
going to land on her head. But I was like, I might actually
38:46
get her knee pads because like her knees are so scraped from
38:48
the summer. But I was thinking about that
38:50
and I was thinking about our conversation coming up and I was
38:52
like, oh, I wonder if this is like kind of part of all this
38:54
where it's it's giving her these opportunities to fall and cut
38:59
up. And we talk about and she's
39:00
like, oh, that hurt. And then she gets back on the
39:02
scooter and it's like it's. OK.
39:04
Yeah, and it's hard as the parent, like that's a physical
39:08
situation, but like it's so hard as a parent to like see your
39:11
kids go through stuff. But I just, I, I know
39:14
intuitively and also through the work I've done in research and
39:18
whatever that it's important to let them have because the little
39:21
scrapes on their knees and that not take not keep them home from
39:25
school because you're worried about bullying, not preventing
39:28
them from being in social situations out of fear of
39:31
something happening. But giving them the tools if and
39:34
when things do happen to be like this is how we can get through
39:37
them together. And maybe is it setting up for
39:40
them to have the tools to then be able to get through stuff on
39:42
their own? And I think that's such a
39:44
beautiful thing to getting through it together, and I think
39:47
that exemplifies what they're talking about.
39:49
Secure and is that teaching them from an early age that you're
39:55
there with them through this and these challenging things?
39:58
And there's actually one of the entities that I did steal with.
40:01
So she was apparent and she had two young kids and one of her
40:06
youngest had issues with anxiety.
40:08
And so we get really, really worried about things and I
40:10
remember she was telling us that she would always sit him down be
40:12
like OK, is this something we can like can we get through this
40:15
together? What's the worst case scenario
40:17
and can we get through this together and he reflects and be
40:20
like. Know it.
40:21
Yeah, yeah, we can. But I just thought it was so
40:24
beautiful because it was, it was apparent that was like, yeah,
40:28
this is going to be hard. I'm here with and I'll get you
40:30
through it. And then, yeah.
40:32
You know what I like about that is asking them what they.
40:35
It's kind of like she was asking him what he needed as well.
40:38
So it's like no matter what age I guess the kid is at, when
40:42
you're kind of doing a bit of a debrief, instead of being like,
40:44
OK, I'm going to distract you, let's have a popsicle or, OK,
40:47
here's what we should do next. Like you scrape your knee, let's
40:50
go get a Band-Aid, blah, blah. What if I like, maybe Addie
40:53
didn't want to Band-Aid. We didn't do that.
40:54
But the reflection, if she was super upset, could have been,
40:57
hey, what do you want to do now? Like, what should we do to solve
41:01
this? Or like, how are you feeling?
41:02
And she like, my knee hurts. It's like, OK, like how can I
41:05
support you in making it feel better?
41:07
And maybe like starting to help her come up with solutions.
41:11
Like she's in that space. She's only 2 1/2, but like she
41:13
really is getting there where she could be like, I want to
41:16
keep scootering versus me pushing a solution on her.
41:19
It's like your friend. It's like asking him like, OK,
41:21
what do we want to do to get through this together?
41:24
And he could be like nothing, I'm actually fine or like, I
41:26
want to talk about it or I want to be alone.
41:28
Maybe that's part of it. And like really honoring where
41:31
they're. At yeah.
41:32
And I think that's a big part too of, of them being seen is
41:36
you're kind of understanding the inner workings because I think
41:39
she's just 2 1/2, but she's got this brain that's probably like
41:42
crazy. And she's making all these new
41:45
connections and she's developing and she's learning all these new
41:47
skills and so quickly. And so really getting curious
41:52
about what's going on inside her beautiful brain.
41:55
Yes, yes. Can I ask you, can I ask you
41:58
advice? I'm putting you totally on the
41:59
spot here. When things happen, what do you
42:02
say if someone sharing an experience with you and they're
42:04
like, they shared like a really traumatic experience from their
42:08
childhood, Yeah. What's it?
42:10
What's the first thing that you typically say as an
42:12
acknowledgement but not lessening them?
42:16
Belittling. Them, I think that's a big thing
42:19
is that what I, I try to do is acknowledgement about how, how
42:24
challenging that must have been and just, yeah, like how
42:26
challenging it must have been to share that and just just try to
42:30
have kind of a quiet moment of appreciation because difficult
42:34
things like that are not always easy to talk about.
42:37
And it takes a lot of a lot of vulnerability, right, to bring
42:40
them. And so I think appreciation of
42:42
that and also appreciation too, because as you know, as a
42:45
healthcare provider, sometimes I'm meeting people for the first
42:48
time. You know, I've only met them a
42:50
few times. So for them to share something
42:53
big like that, it yes, it must have been really difficult for
42:57
them new person. That is hard.
43:01
And now I'm thinking maybe in the in a, a reverse situation
43:05
with parents, it could also be hard because that's the person
43:10
that you care most about, like your parents say, it could be
43:12
the people that you care most about.
43:14
You care about their opinion. You might be sharing something
43:16
that they really don't want to hear.
43:17
Like, OK, I really screwed up here.
43:19
And I'm about to tell you acknowledgement.
43:21
Like that's interesting. I'm acknowledging how hard that
43:24
must have been for you to share that.
43:27
So that's cool. I like that.
43:29
The acknowledgment pieces, it's huge.
43:31
Yeah. And I think you also, and as a
43:33
parent, as a healthcare provider, you want to make sure
43:35
that people feel safe to come to you again with if something
43:39
really difficult has happened, right?
43:41
Yes, yes, Oh my goodness. We could talk forever.
43:46
And I know we're we're like, we could go for three hours for
43:50
sure. Kathleen.
43:53
Yeah, we're going to have to do a Part 2 at some point.
43:55
I've got a million more questions.
43:56
But this is so incredibly helpful.
43:57
And even just ending all that, like, how do you even
43:59
acknowledge like how like what are some of the things like the
44:01
four asses? We'll drop all of this stuff in
44:03
the show notes in the in the blog post that he create
44:06
associated with this. This is so incredibly helpful.
44:08
I have to ask, what's something that you're trying to figure
44:10
out? I ask everybody on the on the
44:12
podcast. I should have expected this
44:14
coming because I listened to your podcast trying to figure
44:18
out Oh my gosh, I am. And I think anything, I think
44:21
this is going to be my forever thing and is trying to and if my
44:27
apartment makes my partner listen to listen to this is
44:29
going to to my. I'm always trying to figure out
44:33
my balance of having a busy job and doing things in that job
44:37
that bring me a lot of joy and meaning.
44:40
And then balancing that with the other things that I get a lot of
44:43
joy and meaning from. And you know, because sometimes
44:47
I can sway too much where I'm end up working really long hours
44:50
and I'm working too much and then I'm not cooking at home or
44:54
spending quality time at home. And vice versa if I'm not.
45:00
And I feel like, you know, doing too many social things, but
45:04
trying to find the balance of all the things that make me feel
45:07
good and make me happy and make me function on my best.
45:09
And I feel like, and I can't even imagine what it must be
45:12
like for you as a parent to two young children.
45:15
But finding that balance about where you allocate your time.
45:18
And I feel like you get older and time is going faster and
45:22
everyone's getting busier. But out.
45:24
Yeah. Balancing that, it's so
45:27
challenging. It's challenging.
45:30
You know what I will say, maybe it's use your mind.
45:32
From my personal experience, the there's beauty and the
45:36
constraint. Like there's literally a book
45:37
called A Beautiful Constraint and I always reference it even
45:40
though I've never actually read it.
45:41
But Scotty wrote read it and he always references it.
45:43
So I feel like I've read it, which is like most books that he
45:46
reads. I feel like I've also read it
45:47
with him and and there is beauty in the the constraints that are
45:53
created in parenting where you're like, I only have XY and
45:56
Z amount of time, which is interesting because then it does
45:59
like I remember hearing people say it makes you feel more
46:02
productive or like you've just got a bit more focus because
46:05
you've got pockets of time. So it's interesting.
46:07
It'll be interesting to continue to reflect and we'll have you
46:09
back on when, when the time comes that's making babies
46:15
because you'll be great. And it's, well, you've already
46:17
acknowledged that, like you are aware that it's something that
46:19
you're working on, which is half the battle, right?
46:22
Yes. Full thank you.
46:23
So first of all, thank you for the work that you do.
46:25
Second of all, thank you for coming and speaking to me and
46:28
us, this audience and from the lens of parenting and sharing
46:32
your career story too, how fascinating.
46:35
I've learned, I've honestly learned a lot.
46:37
And I know there's some resources that you mentioned a
46:39
couple books and there's a couple others that you wanted to
46:42
share as well. So I will put those in the show
46:44
notes, but I so appreciate your time.
46:46
I appreciate you. And I have a feeling you will be
46:49
a friend of the podcast and I'll be inviting you back, if you
46:52
will, if you will join me. Would be honored.
46:54
And yeah, thank you so much for having me and taking the time to
46:57
listen to me. And it's been, yeah, it's been
46:59
such a treat to, to spend the last, you know, hour with you.
47:03
The best. Thanks, Kathleen.
47:06
Thank you so much for listening. And since you made it this far,
47:09
please share this episode with a fellow parent who you love,
47:12
respect, and want to support. And while you're at it, hit me
47:16
up on Instagram at All Figured Out.
47:18
Andrea, I would love to meet you and hear what you are trying to
47:21
figure out these days.