Latest / Radio 831: A Romance Podcast / Welcome to the Omegaverse, Kate Stayman-London on Politics in Romance, and Wicker—Our Romance Movie of the Year

Transcript

Welcome to the Omegaverse, Kate Stayman-London on Politics in Romance, and Wicker—Our Romance Movie of the Year · Radio 831: A Romance Podcast

0:06
Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to the Radio 831 podcast. We're your hosts,
0:10
Speaker 1: Sanjana Bhaskar and Tyler McCall.
0:12
Speaker 2: And we're so excited to talk everything romance, from the
0:16
Speaker 2: novels and the tropes to the book-to-screen adaptations and, of course,
0:20
Speaker 2: the drama of it all. You know, unpacking what the
0:23
Speaker 2: genre says about who we are and how we love.
0:25
Speaker 2: Big stuff. Important stuff.
0:28
Speaker 3: Tyler, Sanj?
0:29
Speaker 2: I put a poll on my Instagram story recently. I'm
0:31
Speaker 2: not sure if you saw it.
0:32
Speaker 1: I participated in it. I know exactly which one you're
0:34
Speaker 1: talking about.
0:35
Speaker 2: Well, the poll was basically me asking if you were
0:38
Speaker 2: an Omegaverse designation, like if we were in a world
0:40
Speaker 2: where Omegaverse was a thing. Would you be an alpha,
0:43
Speaker 2: an omega, or a beta? And I gave two options
0:46
Speaker 2: for betas. Betas who are like kind of switchy, like
0:48
Speaker 2: they have a little bit of alpha characteristics and some
0:51
Speaker 2: omega characteristics when they choose or desire, but they're both
0:54
Speaker 2: like kind of minimized. Or is it that you have
0:57
Speaker 2: like no designation features at all? You're just a regular,
1:01
Speaker 2: regular human in this world where people have ruts and
1:03
Speaker 2: heats and knots and other curious things.
1:06
Speaker 3: How did you answer that poll, Tyler?
1:08
Speaker 2: What a great question. Thank you so much for asking.
1:10
Speaker 1: First of all, I can't believe that we've made it
1:12
Speaker 1: this far into the podcast and not talked about the
1:15
Speaker 1: Omegaverse in a very serious way.
1:17
Speaker 3: I know.
1:18
Speaker 2: For those who are uninitiated, it might have just sounded
1:20
Speaker 2: like you just started speaking a second language. Perhaps.
1:23
Speaker 1: Walk us through it and walk me through what those
1:26
Speaker 1: terms mean.
1:27
Speaker 2: And, you know, I actually have a kind of tight
1:28
Speaker 2: 10 on this because I've given this presentation many times.
1:30
Speaker 2: I'm surprised you don't have a PowerPoint ready.
1:32
Speaker 3: I do, actually. unironically. I don't have it pulled up,
1:39
Speaker 3: but I do have it from memory. It is in
1:41
Speaker 3: my Canva if we need it. Anyway.
1:43
Speaker 2: Basically, Omegaverse emerges out of Star Trek fan fiction, which
1:47
Speaker 2: is like the earliest, most intense fandom that we have
1:49
Speaker 2: available to us on the internet. Oh, I didn't know that.
1:52
Speaker 2: It is born out of the episode on Ponfar where
1:56
Speaker 2: they basically talk to a species of people who go
1:59
Speaker 2: through like heat and rut cycles functionally. It's like a
2:01
Speaker 2: fuck or die is kind of the premise. like if
2:04
Speaker 2: they don't have sex during this period, they will die.
2:05
Speaker 2: And that eventually made way for alpha and omega designations.
2:11
Speaker 2: If gender, as we think of it, like man, woman,
2:14
Speaker 2: non-binary gender fluid, whatever it is, is like our sort
2:17
Speaker 2: of primary designation of how we move through the world.
2:20
Speaker 2: Omegaverse is like a secondary designation. It's like a set
2:23
Speaker 2: of secondary sex characteristics beyond the ones that we already
2:26
Speaker 2: have that determine not just how we like appear, but
2:30
Speaker 2: how we are operating reproductively and sexually. And it's a
2:34
Speaker 2: combination of both biological, social, and psychological characteristics. Everyone formulates
2:40
Speaker 2: Omegaverse differently, which is part of why it's so challenging
2:42
Speaker 2: to explain how it works. However, A, B, O, or
2:47
Speaker 2: Omegaverse has become a really popular frame within fandom to
2:52
Speaker 2: explore sexuality and desire and matedness and pairing and all
2:57
Speaker 2: of that in.
2:58
Speaker 3: Various fictional characters.
3:01
Speaker 2: It has now sort of entered the common parlance of
3:04
Speaker 2: how we talk about like romance generally, like even in
3:08
Speaker 2: non-Omegaverse romance. I think people are often talking about like
3:10
Speaker 2: who the Alpha is and who the Omega is or
3:12
Speaker 2: like lots of stuff is ripe for Omegaverse exploration, whether
3:16
Speaker 2: or not you're strictly speaking writing Omegaverse. And with the
3:20
Speaker 2: advent of Supernatural in the 2010, like 2000s and 2010s,
3:25
Speaker 2: the beta category was introduced where like there was just
3:29
Speaker 2: Alpha and Omega for a while. And then beta was
3:31
Speaker 2: an artifact of the Supernatural community. And now we are
3:35
Speaker 2: where we are with it. How does that land as
3:38
Speaker 2: an explanation?
3:39
Speaker 1: That's incredible. First of all, tight 10. That was a
3:42
Speaker 1: tight five. You got that really rattled off.
3:46
Speaker 2: Okay.
3:47
Speaker 1: So in this scenario, what would you say the defining
3:49
Speaker 1: characteristics of an alpha and omega and a beta are?
3:52
Speaker 2: If we're going off of stereotype, alpha is.
3:57
Speaker 2: Because I have a lot of thoughts about this, but
3:59
Speaker 2: we'll get into that. Alpha is the sexually dominant category.
4:03
Speaker 2: So they are people who... protect, who hold a lot
4:07
Speaker 2: of characteristics like adjacent to how we think about masculinity
4:10
Speaker 2: in our time. They are the people who are impregnating others,
4:13
Speaker 2: not the ones being impregnated. They can be of any gender. Again, remember,
4:18
Speaker 2: this is layered on top of our sort of primary
4:20
Speaker 2: gender identification. So they're caretakers, they are managers, they are bossy,
4:26
Speaker 2: but they can, depending on your formulation of the world,
4:28
Speaker 2: also be scary, uncontrolled, violent. You know, omegas are needy.
4:35
Speaker 2: They can be clingy. They are in need of a
4:38
Speaker 2: lot of support and care. They are the ones who
4:40
Speaker 2: can be impregnated. They are known for nesting and they
4:45
Speaker 2: go into heat. Nesting as in like literally spending a
4:48
Speaker 2: lot of time taking care of the house and home.
4:51
Speaker 2: Heat as in a period of like basically ovulation where
4:55
Speaker 2: they're like, I need to be impregnated right now or
4:57
Speaker 2: I'm going to be physically sick. And then for alphas,
4:59
Speaker 2: that version is called rut. And then betas, depending on
5:03
Speaker 2: the world, can either be sort of a mix of
5:06
Speaker 2: both characteristics or neither. They can be regular, regular humans
5:09
Speaker 2: who don't have another designation. And oftentimes in those worlds,
5:14
Speaker 2: alphas and omegas are called demis. So like they are demi-human,
5:18
Speaker 2: I guess, or demi-shifter. The thing is, there are a
5:21
Speaker 2: lot of things about this that read like shifter or
5:24
Speaker 2: werewolf romance. But the reality is that like in true Omegaverse,
5:27
Speaker 2: they're often not shifting, like physically shifting. But again, the
5:32
Speaker 2: rules are flexible and made up. And one thing about
5:35
Speaker 2: fan fiction, it's not going to follow rules.
5:38
Speaker 3: It's going to do whatever it damn well pleases.
5:39
Speaker 2: It's going to do whatever it wants. Yeah. So with
5:42
Speaker 2: those definitions in mind....
5:45
Speaker 3: Spiritually.
5:46
Speaker 2: I would really like to be an Omega.
5:49
Speaker 3: Okay.
5:49
Speaker 2: But I don't think I am. Really?
5:51
Speaker 1: Like, I think I'm actually just a beta. Look, I, again,
5:54
Speaker 1: have dabbled in the Omegaverse. I've read Omegaverse fics.
5:57
Speaker 2: I also, like, could... I was astonished.
6:00
Speaker 1: And I also was in a position, and I'm not
6:02
Speaker 1: nearly as knowledgeable as you, to, like, explain Omegaverse to people.
6:05
Speaker 2: Because there was.
6:05
Speaker 3: I'll send you my PowerPoint.
6:06
Speaker 2: Thank you.
6:07
Speaker 3: It would be so helpful.
6:08
Speaker 1: There was obviously Ali Haywood's Bride. And then Lana Ferguson
6:11
Speaker 1: had my fake meat. And I genuinely was like, I
6:13
Speaker 1: cannot believe Omegaverse is getting published. mainstream contemporary romance like
6:20
Speaker 1: Omegaverse is getting published.
6:22
Speaker 2: But being an Omega seems really nice. Being an Omega
6:25
Speaker 2: seems really nice.
6:25
Speaker 1: Right.
6:25
Speaker 2: Because. I'm going to be really honest. Like, for that
6:27
Speaker 2: period of heat, they are, their every need is catered to. Like,
6:30
Speaker 2: they spend, they. Their every need is catered to.
6:32
Speaker 3: They get whatever they want.
6:32
Speaker 2: They're, like, the whole time being dicked down.
6:34
Speaker 3: It's fabulous.
6:35
Speaker 2: Like, it. It's fabulous. I'm curious, like, why do you
6:39
Speaker 2: feel like you would or wouldn't be an Omega?
6:40
Speaker 3: You know what it is?
6:41
Speaker 1: Is, like, as you're describing an Omega, I'm, like, actually,
6:44
Speaker 1: that's how I am in relationships. It's, like, I'm a controlling, like,
6:47
Speaker 1: caretaking kind of person. I just think, like, I don't
6:50
Speaker 1: deserve it. Which is why I'm a beta. But here's
6:53
Speaker 1: the thing.
6:54
Speaker 2: And you know what? And I will bring that up
6:55
Speaker 2: in therapy next week.
6:57
Speaker 3: And unironically, I'm so serious.
6:59
Speaker 2: I got so many responses that were like, I think
7:02
Speaker 2: I might be this, but I don't know if I deserve.
7:04
Speaker 2: So the breakdown of the poll results is like 12%
7:06
Speaker 2: were alphas. Close to over 50% were betas of some kind.
7:12
Speaker 2: Pretty evenly split between the no designation characteristics and minimal characteristics.
7:17
Speaker 3: Yeah.
7:17
Speaker 2: And then the remainder were omega. So it was like
7:19
Speaker 2: close to 30% were omegas. And I was so fascinated
7:23
Speaker 2: by that. I didn't think so many people would choose betas.
7:26
Speaker 2: And of course, this is a limited sample size. I
7:27
Speaker 2: think I got like 400 votes or something on it.
7:30
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a lot for an Instagram poll. Look.
7:33
Speaker 2: People have a lot to say.
7:35
Speaker 1: I was so glad you asked because it's like such
7:37
Speaker 1: an interesting litmus test for how you think of yourself.
7:40
Speaker 2: I was also fascinated by the people who were like,
7:42
Speaker 2: I'm taking quizzes to figure this out. And I was like,
7:44
Speaker 2: what do you mean? You have to look within. A
7:46
Speaker 2: quiz can't tell you. You have to look within. BuzzFeed
7:49
Speaker 2: can't tell you. People assume that whatever secondary designation you
7:53
Speaker 2: end up in is something that you must be totally
7:55
Speaker 2: comfortable and congruent with. I think I'm an alpha, to
7:59
Speaker 2: be honest. I see that for you.
8:01
Speaker 3: I'm assertive. I'm opinionated.
8:03
Speaker 2: I've been group lead on every project I've ever done
8:05
Speaker 2: with people.
8:06
Speaker 3: I can get kind of bossy and stubborn. But that
8:09
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that like.
8:11
Speaker 4: I never want to experience care or the loving support
8:15
Speaker 4: of another person. Right.
8:17
Speaker 1: Should we start asking every person who comes on the
8:19
Speaker 1: podcast how they would rate themselves?
8:21
Speaker 3: Okay. I think yes.
8:22
Speaker 2: And I think you can be an omega. Thank you.
8:25
Speaker 2: And maybe you're an omega whose omega needs are not
8:27
Speaker 2: being met, but they can be. Thank you.
8:30
Speaker 3: I'm standing on that.
8:31
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
8:32
Speaker 3: You know what?
8:33
Speaker 1: I didn't ask her, but today we do have the
8:37
Speaker 1: lovely Kate Stammen-London on to talk about politics and romance.
8:41
Speaker 1: The politics of being Alpha and Omega are definitely present anyway.
8:45
Speaker 2: We have Kate Stammen-London on to.
8:46
Speaker 1: Talk about her latest book, See You Next Tuesday. A
8:52
Speaker 1: very funny, very clever title. Kate is a novelist, screenwriter, author.
8:57
Speaker 1: political strategist also has assured everybody several times that there
9:02
Speaker 1: are no republicans in see you next tuesday because being
9:05
Speaker 1: a republican and i'm sure we'll get into that is
9:09
Speaker 1: not really uh compatible with romance and romance novels but
9:14
Speaker 1: we're so excited to have kate on ahead of the
9:17
Speaker 1: midterms yeah which you all better be voting in correct.
9:30
Speaker 2: Kate, I'm so excited to talk to you. Thank you
9:32
Speaker 2: for having me. I'm very excited about this.
9:35
Speaker 1: I want to get started by I love See You
9:38
Speaker 1: Next Tuesday as a title. I'm delighted that they let
9:40
Speaker 1: you do that.
9:41
Speaker 4: It's actually the only book I've ever written that the
9:43
Speaker 4: title didn't change from like when we first submitted the
9:46
Speaker 4: proposal to when it came out.
9:47
Speaker 2: It was like, no, that's just that's the name of
9:49
Speaker 2: the book. It's See You Next Tuesday.
9:51
Speaker 3: It's beautiful.
9:51
Speaker 2: It's perfect. It's everything to me. See You Next Tuesday
9:54
Speaker 2: doesn't just involve politics.
9:55
Speaker 1: It's obviously completely centered in the world of political machines
9:59
Speaker 1: that run elect I wanted to start by asking you
10:02
Speaker 1: what made you want to set a romance within that world?
10:06
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10:07
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, the first part is that I worked
10:09
Speaker 4: in politics for about a decade. I worked for the
10:13
Speaker 4: letter carriers union, which is your mailman's union. I worked
10:16
Speaker 4: for change.org and then I left politics to go become
10:19
Speaker 4: a writer, got my master's degree in screenwriting. And then
10:23
Speaker 4: an old friend got hired to run digital for Hillary
10:26
Speaker 4: Clinton and asked me to come and write for that campaign.
10:29
Speaker 2: And I, of course, said no. And then like two
10:31
Speaker 2: weeks later, I said yes. Yeah.
10:33
Speaker 4: And so I spent two years working for Hillary Clinton
10:36
Speaker 4: in 2015 and 2016, which was, as you can imagine,
10:39
Speaker 4: a formative experience.
10:40
Speaker 2: What a time to be alive.
10:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sure was.
10:44
Speaker 4: But I was already working with a book agent when
10:47
Speaker 4: I went into that job. And it was always my
10:49
Speaker 4: intention to to write a political rom-com after that campaign
10:53
Speaker 4: was over. And if you can believe this, after the
10:56
Speaker 4: 2016 election, I was like, I don't want to write
11:00
Speaker 4: about politics.
11:02
Speaker 2: That's so crazy.
11:03
Speaker 3: What? Why?
11:05
Speaker 2: Why?
11:06
Speaker 3: No.
11:07
Speaker 4: And so about, I guess, eight years later, when Kamala
11:11
Speaker 4: became the nominee, I had this rush of just hope
11:16
Speaker 4: and optimism and every good feeling I had ever had
11:20
Speaker 4: about why I loved politics and all the sort of brilliant,
11:23
Speaker 4: passionate people I met in that world. And I wanted
11:27
Speaker 4: to write about it. And so I had been working
11:29
Speaker 4: on another book for my third book. And like six
11:32
Speaker 4: months into that project, I just scrapped it because I
11:34
Speaker 4: was like, I just had to tell that story.
11:37
Speaker 3: Yeah.
11:57
Speaker 1: I think that I really appreciated about it is that
12:00
Speaker 1: it navigates a difference in political opinion that doesn't actually
12:04
Speaker 1: even come down to an actual difference in politics between
12:08
Speaker 1: these two characters.
12:09
Speaker 2: It comes down to their approach to achieving those politics.
12:12
Speaker 1: And I wanted to talk a little bit about how
12:15
Speaker 1: you threaded that.
12:17
Speaker 2: Needle in the process of writing See You Next Tuesday.
12:20
Speaker 3: Yeah.
12:20
Speaker 4: So See You Next Tuesday is about two political operatives
12:23
Speaker 4: named Gabe and Anya who keep meeting on different campaigns
12:26
Speaker 4: over the years. And they're both Democrats. They both work
12:29
Speaker 4: on Democratic campaigns. But Anya is much more of a
12:32
Speaker 4: progressive idealist who believes, you know, we should work for
12:35
Speaker 4: the candidate who we think will do the best job,
12:37
Speaker 4: whose beliefs mirror our own, who we're going to sort
12:39
Speaker 4: of push progressive causes further. And Gabe thinks he's more
12:42
Speaker 4: of a pragmatist. He's like, you got to work for
12:44
Speaker 4: the people who can actually win. And, you know, in
12:47
Speaker 4: any story, having people who strongly represent two different points
12:51
Speaker 4: of view is always a great place to start. And
12:54
Speaker 4: I personally really like writing enemies to lovers. So I
12:56
Speaker 4: needed people who had really different opinions. But I think
12:59
Speaker 4: it's also really authentic to Democratic Party politics and history.
13:04
Speaker 4: Having worked a number of primaries, people always think that
13:08
Speaker 4: general elections are going to be the most contentious. But really,
13:11
Speaker 4: it's the primary because it's when you agree with somebody
13:15
Speaker 4: about almost everything, but that like 20 percent of stuff
13:19
Speaker 4: you disagree on or you think your candidate is better
13:22
Speaker 4: or you think their ads are in poor taste or
13:24
Speaker 4: whatever it might be. That is where the really contentious
13:27
Speaker 4: shit happens. It was never a question in my mind.
13:30
Speaker 4: I just knew who those characters were from the beginning.
13:33
Speaker 4: I was like, I know who he is and why
13:35
Speaker 4: he is this way. And I know who she is
13:37
Speaker 4: and why she is this way. And I think with
13:40
Speaker 4: both of them, because, you know, we meet them when
13:41
Speaker 4: they're 21 years old. And by the time the book
13:43
Speaker 4: is over, they're 32 and running presidential campaigns. As you mature,
13:48
Speaker 4: you realize, oh, it's not all one thing and it's
13:50
Speaker 4: not all the other thing. But the book definitely has
13:53
Speaker 4: an opinion about which one of them is more right
13:56
Speaker 4: than the other.
13:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I also really appreciated how deep you get
14:01
Speaker 1: into showing readers how political races are run. And I
14:05
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about like why that was important to
14:07
Speaker 1: you beyond just obviously that's crucial to like the plot
14:10
Speaker 1: of the book. But kind of applying your experiences in
14:13
Speaker 1: working in these behind the scenes rooms and situations and
14:17
Speaker 1: taking that experience and maybe revealing things that I think
14:20
Speaker 1: a lot of readers maybe aren't aware of.
14:22
Speaker 4: Part of it is just wanting there to be an
14:24
Speaker 4: authentic depiction of the world. I think there's a struggle,
14:28
Speaker 4: you know, from a storytelling perspective in a lot of
14:30
Speaker 4: romance novels, authors can struggle to find authentic stakes because.
14:35
Speaker 2: It's the world of politics.
14:36
Speaker 4: And because as we have really horribly had to learn
14:40
Speaker 4: over this past decade, like elections have consequences and it
14:44
Speaker 4: is super, super high stakes. Right. So I didn't have
14:47
Speaker 4: to reach for. For those authentic stakes in this story
14:50
Speaker 4: and then showing how it really works, how these conflicts
14:54
Speaker 4: play out behind the scenes and how in reality you
14:58
Speaker 4: can have people in their 20s and 30s who are
15:00
Speaker 4: young and who think they know the right thing to do,
15:02
Speaker 4: but maybe haven't had a ton of career experience. who
15:05
Speaker 4: don't always know the right thing to do. And sort
15:07
Speaker 4: of counter to that, you can have these sort of
15:10
Speaker 4: wizened old consultants who are really set in their ways
15:13
Speaker 4: and are like, well, it's worked this way for the
15:15
Speaker 4: past 50 years, so it's going to work this way
15:17
Speaker 4: this time too. And it's like, no, the demographics are changing.
15:20
Speaker 4: The world is changing. The internet is changing. Like, politics
15:23
Speaker 4: are not the same as they.
15:24
Speaker 2: Were 30 years ago or 50 years ago.
15:27
Speaker 4: So showing all of that It felt like such a
15:29
Speaker 4: great way to tell a high-stakes story and to really
15:32
Speaker 4: reveal who these characters are and why they belong together.
15:36
Speaker 1: This is going to be an overgeneralization, but I think
15:38
Speaker 1: a lot of people, if they were approaching a political romance,
15:42
Speaker 1: might be inclined to set up that kind of tension
15:45
Speaker 1: by putting them across the.
15:46
Speaker 2: Aisle from one another.
15:48
Speaker 1: If I can put it in a way that is
15:50
Speaker 1: maybe gentle and kind. You, however, created what I would
15:53
Speaker 1: call a truly impressive number of memes. about how See
15:57
Speaker 1: You Next Tuesday has no Republicans. And I wanted to ask-
16:02
Speaker 1: Only Democrats.
16:02
Speaker 2: Oops, all Democrats.
16:04
Speaker 1: Oops, all Democrats romance. Why was it important to you
16:07
Speaker 1: to make that clear to readers? And why doesn't See
16:11
Speaker 1: You Next Tuesday include any Republicans?
16:14
Speaker 4: It honestly never occurred to me that anyone would think
16:17
Speaker 4: that there would be a Republican in this book. And
16:19
Speaker 4: then it became clear, like, as soon as we did
16:21
Speaker 4: the cover reveal and we said it's an enemies to
16:23
Speaker 4: lovers romance set in the world of politics. And suddenly, like,
16:27
Speaker 4: everybody was asking, like, oh, is there a Republican in
16:29
Speaker 4: this book?
16:29
Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, right.
16:31
Speaker 4: Everyone seeing like that this book exists has not met
16:33
Speaker 4: me personally. I would never do that. And so it
16:38
Speaker 4: became clear to me immediately that we were going to
16:40
Speaker 4: have to clarify that. And then so like I posted
16:43
Speaker 4: the first meme I posted was like, you know, the
16:45
Speaker 4: Facebook marked safe meme. And it was like, see you
16:49
Speaker 4: next Tuesday is marked safe from a Republican love interest.
16:51
Speaker 4: And it went more viral than anything I've ever posted
16:54
Speaker 4: on Instagram. As to why it's important, I think maybe
16:57
Speaker 4: 30 years ago, you could write an across the aisle
17:00
Speaker 4: romance and have it feel realistic. Like, I'm not that
17:03
Speaker 4: interested in writing a love interest who doesn't believe in
17:06
Speaker 4: my bodily autonomy. And it wasn't just that I didn't
17:09
Speaker 4: want to write a love interest in that space. I
17:11
Speaker 4: didn't want to write a character in that space. I
17:13
Speaker 4: didn't want there to be any candidates in that space.
17:15
Speaker 4: So in all of See You Next Tuesday, which covers
17:18
Speaker 4: 10 years of elections, there's not a single Republican with
17:21
Speaker 4: a name in the book.
17:22
Speaker 1: This comes up, I swear to God, every like two
17:25
Speaker 1: to four months like clockwork of people, whether it's on
17:29
Speaker 1: threads or book talk or Instagram or whatever. There's there's
17:32
Speaker 1: somebody who says like, oh, politics don't belong in the
17:35
Speaker 1: world of reading. Like I come to book talk or
17:37
Speaker 1: I come to book or I do this because I
17:39
Speaker 1: don't want to engage in politics.
17:41
Speaker 2: Obviously, you disagree.
17:43
Speaker 1: What do you think it is that makes readers uncomfortable
17:47
Speaker 1: about seeing politics and romance or that makes them feel
17:50
Speaker 1: like allergic to the idea of having politics? And I'll
17:53
Speaker 1: say expressly involved in romance.
17:57
Speaker 4: You know, romance has a really diverse readership, a really
18:00
Speaker 4: diverse authorship. And I think there are readers who come
18:03
Speaker 4: to romance and they're only looking for escape and they
18:05
Speaker 4: don't want to be challenged. They don't want difficult emotions.
18:09
Speaker 4: They don't want difficult ideas. That is not what they're
18:11
Speaker 4: looking for in the genre. And that's totally okay. And
18:13
Speaker 4: there are books for those people. I don't write that
18:16
Speaker 4: kind of a book, right? That's just, that's not the
18:18
Speaker 4: kind of author I am. That's not the kind of
18:19
Speaker 4: work I make. So I'm always going to be writing
18:23
Speaker 4: about topics that interest me. I'm going to be wrestling
18:25
Speaker 4: with those topics. I'm always going to be giving my
18:27
Speaker 4: characters really difficult arcs to overcome because that's the way
18:32
Speaker 4: I was, you know, studying playwriting, studying screenwriting. That's the
18:34
Speaker 4: way I was taught Western canon storytelling. And it's the
18:37
Speaker 4: way I like to write. With politics specifically, And I
18:41
Speaker 4: think this goes back to like people being concerned that
18:44
Speaker 4: there was a Republican love interest in the book. I
18:46
Speaker 4: think because our politics right now are so divisive. So
18:51
Speaker 4: acidic and just like, I don't want to read the news.
18:54
Speaker 4: I don't want to know what's happening in our politics
18:56
Speaker 4: right now. And I'm a person who spent decades of
18:58
Speaker 4: my life involved in politics. Like, I totally get it.
19:02
Speaker 4: It's overwhelming and it's awful. And I can see not
19:06
Speaker 4: wanting to have that reflected in any of my art,
19:09
Speaker 4: let alone my like relax at the end of the
19:11
Speaker 4: day and feel cozy before bed kind of art. So
19:14
Speaker 4: for me, it's like ignoring it altogether is not actually
19:19
Speaker 4: the most comforting thing you can do. For me, the
19:22
Speaker 4: most comforting thing you can do is remember that there
19:24
Speaker 4: are good people all over this country and all over
19:27
Speaker 4: the world who are working to make it better, that
19:30
Speaker 4: it doesn't always end in heartbreak, that sometimes it ends
19:33
Speaker 4: in joy, that even when it ends in heartbreak, sometimes
19:36
Speaker 4: those losses pave the way for bigger victories than you
19:40
Speaker 4: thought were possible.
19:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I personally just find that That reticence so interesting,
19:45
Speaker 1: because I think even in the most straight, white, cis,
19:49
Speaker 1: able bodied relationships in real life, politics still show up.
19:52
Speaker 1: And I think that that stuff ends up being reflected
19:55
Speaker 1: in romance novels, regardless of whether it's as explicit as
19:59
Speaker 1: it is in See You Next Tuesday. And I'm curious
20:00
Speaker 1: kind of how you've seen that you've touched on a
20:02
Speaker 1: little bit in your previous two books, but like how
20:04
Speaker 1: it showed up, for example, in One to Watch, or
20:06
Speaker 1: Fang Fiction. These interconnected politics showed up in the romance
20:12
Speaker 1: without it being explicitly and it's set in the world
20:15
Speaker 1: of politics, you know.
20:16
Speaker 3: Totally.
20:17
Speaker 2: In some ways, it's funny. My editor and I have
20:19
Speaker 2: laughed about it. In some ways, this is my least
20:20
Speaker 2: political book. Yeah.
20:21
Speaker 4: Like Want to Watch like really had a point to
20:24
Speaker 4: make about fat phobia and inclusion and Fang Fiction really.
20:28
Speaker 2: Had a point to make.
20:29
Speaker 4: About actually poignantly for this moment in time, campus sexual assault, right? Like,
20:34
Speaker 4: these were like issues I really wanted to talk about.
20:36
Speaker 4: And See You Next Tuesday is kind of less about
20:38
Speaker 4: a specific issue in that way. But what I will
20:41
Speaker 4: say is like a romance novel is always going to
20:43
Speaker 4: be a political project because a romance novel says, you know,
20:47
Speaker 4: the protagonist is usually a woman or a queer person.
20:50
Speaker 4: And first of all, that these folks have the right
20:52
Speaker 4: to exist. that they have the right to bodily autonomy,
20:56
Speaker 4: to have a partner who's emotionally supportive, to have their
21:00
Speaker 4: sexual needs fulfilled, often to have places of power within
21:04
Speaker 4: their family, to have their career.
21:07
Speaker 3: Ambitions, right?
21:08
Speaker 4: All of these things, while they shouldn't be explicitly political, right,
21:13
Speaker 4: specifically in our world right now, those are extremely political ideas.
21:16
Speaker 4: That is not the world we're living in. We're living
21:18
Speaker 4: in a world where you know, politicians are legislating away
21:22
Speaker 4: trans people's rights to exist and, you know, equal pay, abortion,
21:26
Speaker 4: like we could go on and on about all of
21:28
Speaker 4: the issues. But to me, to say that a romance
21:31
Speaker 4: novel shouldn't have politics in it is to ignore what
21:34
Speaker 4: a romance novel is, because a romance novel is an
21:36
Speaker 4: expression of a certain set of political ideals that say
21:40
Speaker 4: that women and queer folks have the right to fulfilling lives.
21:44
Speaker 4: And that shouldn't be controversial, but I think it is.
21:48
Speaker 1: I want to take a second to say probably one
21:50
Speaker 1: of the funniest things I've ever said. I'd like to
21:52
Speaker 1: plug the midterms because.
21:55
Speaker 3: Shout out midterms.
21:56
Speaker 2: Shout out to the midterms.
21:58
Speaker 1: And as somebody who was involved in the world of politics,
22:01
Speaker 1: I'm actually wondering if you could just take a second
22:03
Speaker 1: to speak to the importance of midterms, because I fully
22:06
Speaker 1: believe like I vote in every single election all the
22:08
Speaker 1: time ever.
22:09
Speaker 2: But I know that that's not the norm. Shout out midterms.
22:11
Speaker 2: I specifically love midterms.
22:13
Speaker 4: My first like big girl election job was the 2006
22:16
Speaker 4: midterm cycle. I was living and working in Columbus, Ohio,
22:19
Speaker 4: and my job was to run a vote by mail
22:22
Speaker 4: program for union members in the state of Ohio. And
22:25
Speaker 4: so midterm elections are so important. They're important at the
22:28
Speaker 4: federal level, obviously, because if we're able to flip Congress over.
22:32
Speaker 4: That will give us a lot stronger levers to fight
22:34
Speaker 4: back against what this administration is doing. However, I really,
22:38
Speaker 4: really encourage folks to look at your state and local
22:41
Speaker 4: races because they can have so many ripple effects. Think
22:45
Speaker 4: of the state legislatures. where those may be swing states
22:49
Speaker 4: in the presidential election in 2008. And the governor or
22:52
Speaker 4: the secretary of state may be making decisions that affect
22:56
Speaker 4: how those elections are certified or not certified. You may
22:59
Speaker 4: be looking at state legislatures, looking at stuff like trans rights,
23:02
Speaker 4: like abortion. You can be looking at, you know, in California,
23:06
Speaker 4: we have a statewide proposition to tax billionaires. We have
23:09
Speaker 4: Nithya Raman running for mayor in the city of L.A.
23:12
Speaker 4: You look at these city races, at Board of Education's races.
23:15
Speaker 4: I imagine listeners of this podcast Care a lot about
23:18
Speaker 4: book bans. Your local board of education is going to
23:20
Speaker 4: have a big say. Your local library board, which you
23:22
Speaker 4: may be able to vote for.
23:24
Speaker 2: Right. So all the way up and down the ballot,
23:26
Speaker 2: these midterm elections are super, super important. And because so
23:31
Speaker 2: many fewer people vote, your vote counts more. your dollars
23:35
Speaker 2: that you contribute go further. Your time that you spend volunteering,
23:39
Speaker 2: writing postcards, phone banking, that goes further. So the general
23:43
Speaker 2: rule being the fewer people vote in an election, the
23:46
Speaker 2: more influence you as a citizen can have in that election. Amen.
23:51
Speaker 1: That's the best note we can end on. I'm not
23:52
Speaker 1: going to even say anything else. Kate, thank you so much.
23:55
Speaker 1: This was such a delight. I so appreciate you taking
23:59
Speaker 1: the time today to speak with me. Sanj, I think
24:10
Speaker 1: Kate is so great. And I really enjoyed our conversation
24:12
Speaker 1: about politics in romance.
24:14
Speaker 3: Yay. I'm glad. It was a good time. It was
24:17
Speaker 3: a good time.
24:18
Speaker 2: Speaking of good times.
24:20
Speaker 1: You and I had the privilege, dare I say the honor.
24:23
Speaker 3: That's correct.
24:23
Speaker 1: Of attending a screening of one of our most anticipated
24:28
Speaker 1: films of the year, which is out now in theaters.
24:30
Speaker 2: That's the movie Wicker.
24:31
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
24:32
Speaker 1: Sanj, let's just start on a high note. This movie ended,
24:34
Speaker 1: we were in a screening room in midtown Manhattan. It's
24:38
Speaker 1: us and what I can only assume were like three
24:40
Speaker 1: or four other like professional film critics.
24:43
Speaker 2: Who like evacuated the theater the second we finished.
24:46
Speaker 1: The credits started rolling, they left. Sanj and I looked
24:48
Speaker 1: at each other and started clapping.
24:49
Speaker 3: Like seal clapping. We were so happy.
24:51
Speaker 2: Seal clapping.
24:52
Speaker 3: We were so happy.
24:53
Speaker 2: So happy.
24:53
Speaker 1: So Wicker, for those who don't know, is based on
24:57
Speaker 1: a short story, but it follows the village fisher.
25:00
Speaker 2: Woman, played by Olivia Coleman, who.
25:03
Speaker 1: Goes to the local wicker maker, the wicker man, played
25:07
Speaker 1: by Peter Dinklage, and asks him to make her a husband,
25:12
Speaker 1: which he does. He says, be at the chapel in
25:14
Speaker 1: one month. And she shows up at the chapel and
25:17
Speaker 1: lo and behold, who is there but her wicker husband
25:19
Speaker 1: played by certified freak Alexander Skarsgård.
25:22
Speaker 3: My favorite. My favorite.
25:23
Speaker 2: Sanj, other than the clapping, what did you think?
25:26
Speaker 1: I know this for you was like truly, I think,
25:28
Speaker 1: maybe like your.
25:29
Speaker 2: Most anticipated movie of 2026. It really was. And it
25:33
Speaker 2: is the kind of movie that I think was generated
25:35
Speaker 2: in a lab specifically for my interests.
25:38
Speaker 3: And the execution did not fail on that at all.
25:41
Speaker 3: Things I love. Medieval aesthetics.
25:43
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
25:43
Speaker 3: What did we get? Medieval aesthetics. What do I love?
25:46
Speaker 3: Sentient object romance. And what was this? Kind of a
25:48
Speaker 3: sentient object romance. Or Monster Romance. I'm not really sure
25:52
Speaker 3: which technicality we're falling on, but it was one of
25:55
Speaker 3: the two.
25:56
Speaker 2: Also, Olivia Colman and Alexander Skarsgård, two of my favorite actors.
26:00
Speaker 3: So this was really like so.
26:02
Speaker 2: Perfect for me specifically. I loved this movie.
26:06
Speaker 3: I loved it from start to finish.
26:07
Speaker 2: Start to finish. I loved every scene of it. I
26:09
Speaker 2: loved every performance of it. I thought it was beautifully shot.
26:13
Speaker 2: I thought it really moved me. Weirdly, there's a moment
26:16
Speaker 2: in the middle where the Wicker Man, Skarsgård, sort of
26:19
Speaker 2: articulates dialectics just in passing conversation.
26:23
Speaker 3: And I was like, Hegel mentioned?
26:26
Speaker 1: Crazy.
26:26
Speaker 2: So that also felt like a pointed mention at me,
26:31
Speaker 2: which was really lovely.
26:32
Speaker 3: I was moved by it. I thought it was simple
26:34
Speaker 3: and tender and really lovely. I agree.
26:38
Speaker 2: I mean this really sincerely. It's my favorite romance of
26:42
Speaker 2: the year that I've seen. I think I agree.
26:44
Speaker 1: I was scared going in. I think I've seen too
26:46
Speaker 1: many like A24 movies. Where I was like, this movie
26:48
Speaker 1: is going to fuck me over in the last 30 minutes.
26:51
Speaker 1: And this was just delight the whole time. I think
26:55
Speaker 1: every 10 minutes or so, I would think to myself,
26:58
Speaker 1: I cannot believe this movie got greenlit. Because it's so
27:02
Speaker 1: conceptually bizarre. Like it is so conceptually strange. All the
27:07
Speaker 1: people in the village, none of them have names. They
27:10
Speaker 1: all go by either their job or the wife of
27:13
Speaker 1: the job. So there's, like, the baker and then baker's wife.
27:16
Speaker 1: There is the tailor and tailor's wife played by the
27:19
Speaker 1: absolutely ethereal, stunning, beautiful Elizabeth Debicki, who I'm obsessed with,
27:24
Speaker 1: and is perfect in this role.
27:26
Speaker 2: She's so good.
27:27
Speaker 1: Every single person in this movie was delightful and incredible. Like,
27:32
Speaker 1: the casting director needs.
27:34
Speaker 2: Arrays, like wonderful work. And I just kept being like,
27:37
Speaker 2: I can't believe this got made for so many reasons. Yeah.
27:41
Speaker 1: I feel like we should really discuss the effects of
27:45
Speaker 1: Alexander Skarsgård as a wicker man. Yeah.
27:47
Speaker 2: Because we were both like tickled.
27:50
Speaker 3: Unreal. Genuinely bananas. It was so good.
27:54
Speaker 2: I heard it was practical effects, which is insane to me.
27:57
Speaker 2: I don't understand how that's possible. And they go so
27:59
Speaker 2: far as to make creaking noises when.
28:01
Speaker 3: He gets an erection. And that's a commitment.
28:03
Speaker 2: Delightful. To the logic of the movie that I'm just
28:06
Speaker 2: so tickled by.
28:08
Speaker 1: It's a bit of a gag, if you will, where
28:10
Speaker 1: it's like he shows up into the village naked and
28:12
Speaker 1: has to get clothes and like all this stuff. And
28:14
Speaker 1: as he's moving around and walking around, you can hear
28:16
Speaker 1: a wicker creaking. And then, yeah, like the first night
28:19
Speaker 1: that he goes back with Olivia Colman and And he
28:21
Speaker 1: gets an erection. You don't see it, but you do
28:23
Speaker 1: hear this wicker sound. And it's magnificent. Also, I think
28:27
Speaker 1: what's so– I was genuinely struck by how beautiful it was.
28:30
Speaker 1: Like if there was a situation where he was backlit
28:32
Speaker 1: by like sunlight or firelight or whatever, you could see
28:35
Speaker 1: that through the wicker, which was genuinely just so beautiful.
28:39
Speaker 1: I was just so regularly touched by this movie. And
28:42
Speaker 1: there's a moment that I don't want to completely spoil,
28:44
Speaker 1: but it's like kind of towards the end. Basically, what
28:47
Speaker 1: happens is the wicker man is both so sexually satisfying
28:51
Speaker 1: for Olivia Coleman and also just so like loving and
28:55
Speaker 1: caring and like kind of the ideal partner that it
28:59
Speaker 1: causes this awakening in the village in many, many ways
29:02
Speaker 1: for these couples who have kind of been living by
29:04
Speaker 1: this status quo. And there's like a lot of reactions
29:06
Speaker 1: to that, both good and bad. And there's a moment
29:09
Speaker 1: where one of the couples is talking about bringing a
29:12
Speaker 1: wicker person basically into their home. as a third like
29:16
Speaker 1: as like a like a polyamorous third and it's treated
29:18
Speaker 1: with such sincerity and like it's funny like the moment
29:23
Speaker 1: is funny it's a joke but it's not like they're
29:24
Speaker 1: not like a punchline for it I don't know there's
29:26
Speaker 1: just so many moments in this movie that were so
29:29
Speaker 1: tender in ways I was not expecting.
29:31
Speaker 2: I think it's also that this is an adaptation of
29:33
Speaker 2: a short story and I've talked on here before about
29:36
Speaker 2: how a lot of romance adaptations and you know of
29:40
Speaker 2: books in general are working really hard to make last
29:43
Speaker 2: act conflicts feel external as opposed to internal, even though
29:47
Speaker 2: the thing that is satisfying in romance as a genre
29:51
Speaker 2: is this internal, intimate, personal resolution between characters. And this
29:56
Speaker 2: is a movie that strangely was able to commit to
30:00
Speaker 2: something deeply internal taking place between Olivia Colman and Skarsgård' s characters.
30:06
Speaker 2: And that really struck me that, one, the story is
30:11
Speaker 2: simple to its bones, but it's carried out with such
30:14
Speaker 2: care that it doesn't matter. And two, that the beating
30:20
Speaker 2: heart of a really intimate short story like this is
30:23
Speaker 2: still fully present on screen.
30:26
Speaker 1: A line in it or a concept in it that
30:28
Speaker 1: I really loved is Olivia Colman kind of questioning the
30:33
Speaker 1: devotion of this wicker man, right? And having a conversation
30:37
Speaker 1: with Peter Dinklage and him being like, I told you
30:39
Speaker 1: that I would create him, but his personality is a
30:43
Speaker 1: reflection of what you've put into him, basically. Like, isn't
30:47
Speaker 1: that what relationships are? Like, isn't relationships being shaped by
30:50
Speaker 1: the person that loves you and cares for you and
30:53
Speaker 1: makes a mark on you in that way?
30:55
Speaker 2: I just.
30:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what romance is doing.
30:57
Speaker 2: It's talking about how we project our own anxieties about
31:01
Speaker 2: ourselves onto other people and it keeps us apart from them.
31:04
Speaker 2: And that is what she has to contend with as
31:07
Speaker 2: a character, too. Also, can we talk about how many
31:09
Speaker 2: scenes in this movie just luxuriate in them enjoying each
31:13
Speaker 2: other's company?
31:14
Speaker 3: Yes, sexually. Like, there are lots of gestures at sex scenes.
31:18
Speaker 2: And it is pretty quickly confirmed that they are having
31:21
Speaker 2: so much joyful.
31:22
Speaker 3: Sex from top to bottom of the movie.
31:25
Speaker 2: But I think it's also that there are so many
31:26
Speaker 2: scenes of them.
31:27
Speaker 3: Luxuriating in each other's company.
31:29
Speaker 2: Like, genuinely just relishing in being with each other in
31:32
Speaker 2: a way that is so strikingly intimate to watch. I
31:36
Speaker 2: just felt very lucky that They had chosen to make
31:39
Speaker 2: it this way. Yeah. You know?
31:42
Speaker 1: So everyone needs to go see this because I need
31:44
Speaker 1: Hollywood to get the lesson that they need to make
31:46
Speaker 1: 500 more of these.
31:47
Speaker 3: Immediately.
31:48
Speaker 2: Immediately.
31:48
Speaker 3: Immediately.
31:49
Speaker 2: And then report back to us, by the way.
31:51
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Leave us a voicemail.
31:52
Speaker 1: And then call us at 833-831-LOVE and tell us that
31:56
Speaker 1: you loved it. Don't call us if you didn't like it.
31:58
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in that kind of energy in my life.
32:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, correct.
32:01
Speaker 2: Keep that to your letterboxd account.
32:03
Speaker 3: Yeah. Keep that to your letterboxd.
32:05
Speaker 2: Keep that to your letterboxd. I don't want to hear it.
32:07
Speaker 2: But if you loved it, call us and leave us
32:09
Speaker 2: a voicemail.
32:09
Speaker 3: Well, that's the show. That's the show.
32:12
Speaker 2: Yeah. Call us and leave us a voicemail with your
32:18
Speaker 2: thoughts at 833-831-LOVE. That's 833-831-5683. If you fell hard for
32:27
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32:57
Speaker 1: The Radio 831 podcast is a production of iHeart Podcasts,
33:01
Speaker 1: hosted by Sanjana Bhaskar and Tyler McCall. The show is
33:05
Speaker 1: produced by Liz Smith, and for iHeart, our supervising producer
33:08
Speaker 1: is Emily Marinoff. Special thanks to the whole iHeart team,
33:11
Speaker 1: and especially Allie Perry and Allison Cantor-Graber. Our executive producers
33:16
Speaker 1: are Claire Mazur and Erica Cerullo. Our music is Domino
33:20
Speaker 1: by James Ryan Carr and Love Is What You Do
33:22
Speaker 1: by Alibi. We'll be sharing the love here again next week.