Latest / College Is Fine, Everything's Fine / #74 Dark Academia: Is Truth Stranger Than Fiction? A Conversation with Author Heather Colley

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#74 Dark Academia: Is Truth Stranger Than Fiction? A Conversation with Author Heather Colley · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

College Is Fine Podcast (00:46) it's so exciting today because a lot of times when we have people come on it's. a mental health professional, et cetera. But what we are really fans of is the fact that people get help in a lot of different ways also give help in a lot of different ways. So for some people, therapy is fantastic. And some people read a book that really speaks to them and or speaks volumes. And so we're excited to have you on as an author today and welcome. Heather (01:06) Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, I love that. I love the idea that you can get help from a book as well. That definitely resonates. College Is Fine Podcast (01:19) Yeah. So why don't you tell our listeners just a bit about who you are and the, book that you wrote sort of, ⁓ don't give away too much, obviously we'd love for them to read it, but just tell us a bit what the book is about. Heather (01:30) Sure. Sure. It's called The Gilded Butterfly Effect. It's my debut, so it's out in October. And it's a campus novel. It borrows a lot of tropes from dark academia, like the campus itself, the kind of group dynamics. it basically follows two girls, Stella and Penny, who ⁓ get all tangled up in Greek life at kind of a very traditional American large university and they encounter fraternity brothers and lots of toxic parties and psychiatrists and therapists and kind of just get very entangled in one of those lives in ways that are kind of increasingly destructive for both of them. College Is Fine Podcast (02:14) And just a quick follow up to that. I always wonder when I'm reading literary fiction or mysteries, cetera, whatever, whatever I'm reading, I'm always wondering what's fact and what's fiction, meaning like, you in this book at all? Heather (02:16) Mm. Mm. Sure. I went to Michigan, the University of Michigan, which is where the novel is set. So the setting is very much derived from me being really fascinated with that setting when I had just gone to college. But it's very hyperbolized. I wanted to write something extreme and in some ways absurd. While the setting comes from my experience and of course the idea of fraternities and sororities having observed that in undergrad, it's all kind of been very exaggerated for fiction. College Is Fine Podcast (02:59) better. Liz (03:00) ⁓ I must say that the cover is beautiful. ⁓ Yeah, I mean, I'd pick up the book just based upon that, but definitely a lot more after you explained it. Okay, so you've explained that it's fiction. I will say though, it does highlight a lot of realities that young adults do face on campus. And you are closer to university years than Sarah and I are. And maybe in your research for the book. Heather (03:04) Thank you so much. Hmm. Yeah. Liz (03:25) What's your perspective on some of the biggest mental health challenges that college students face on campuses? Heather (03:31) Yeah, I think one of the biggest issues from my own experiences and then also that I fictionalize in the book is just access. Especially at a big university where there's, you know, at Michigan, for example, there's 50,000 students, all of who want to use the university health service, it can be impossible to get help and the nature of mental health issues is that you can't wait sometimes. sort of, it's sometimes urgent. need, when you need mental health care, you need it sort of now. And one of the scenes is Penny trying to find a therapist and she goes through this kind of absurd entanglement of like, I'm not taking clients, I'll refer you. And then I don't take insurance, I'll refer you and so on and so forth. And I think sometimes just finding someone. can be really hard when you're an undergrad in a big healthcare system such as ⁓ a lot of universities. College Is Fine Podcast (04:26) right, that doesn't sound extreme or exaggerated. I'm sure a lot of people listening are just like, yeah, uh-huh, I feel familiar. Heather (04:28) Yeah, yeah well... Yep. Liz (04:31) Right, right, College Is Fine Podcast (04:34) piggybacking on the idea of Greek life. We did have one episode where we talked about what are the pros and cons, that there's obviously a reason that these things exist and it's always good to have some community. what would you say are the pros and cons that you're highlighting in this book? Heather (04:44) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think on their surface, think sororities can serve a really, and fraternities can serve a really important function. For some of the girls, it's where they went to make friends. I know that I went to university in the Midwest and I'm from the East Coast. I didn't know anybody going into school. So joining a sorority was the obvious choice. And you can make a really supportive community through these kind of organizations. I think what I what I tried to emphasize in the book is that the issues are not inherent to the sorority, but they arise because of their dependence on the fraternity. And I think, you know, it's no different than joining a club or a society, or at least that's how it should be. But because they're so rooted in College Is Fine Podcast (05:28) Say more! Liz (05:35) Yeah. Heather (05:40) while patriarchal issues, the fraternities essentially dominate the entire Greek life scene in explicit and implicit ways. Everything that the sororities do has something to do with them. And so it then becomes a gender thing. It's not a community thing. It's not about upholding the women around you. It becomes about centering the fraternity houses. And then of course, we know that not all fraternity boys are good, as the book suggests. So. That is where I think the struggles in Greek life as a whole emerge from. College Is Fine Podcast (06:12) a question about the piece, you know, cause I think a lot of people are listening and probably coming up with their own images in their head, either what they expect something to look like or things that have happened. some people might be thinking like, no, that's not my experience. Or some people might be thinking like, yeah, you know, that is the, that is so, so true to, you know, times 10. similarly with, I think, Heather (06:30) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (06:38) substance use on campus, right? when people are drinking, they're doing drugs, there's a fair amount of what I would think of as like some typical stuff where, yeah, if I were back in college, I would have been right there trying new things. The prescription drug use is something you talk about as well here. So again, lending both your, your, Heather (06:40) Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (07:01) how it works into your plot line, but also are people seeing now on campus Heather (07:06) Yeah, I think it's become easy to access prescription drugs that has become easy to kind of find out what you want and to get it in through legitimate channels, which is what Stella does. She basically says, I don't want what she's giving me. Let me figure out what to say so that she gives me what I want. And it works. And especially with kind of telehealth now as well. Liz (07:26) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (07:27) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Heather (07:32) ⁓ I just think the access to these things has exploded. And I take it to the extreme in the book with things like ketamine, which I didn't witness. I think that would be very extreme, but I just thought that was kind of like the next ⁓ escalation of the issue. But I think especially things like study drugs, anything that enhances focus. academic environments are so competitive and the stakes are so high in college that I think that's kind of the natural thing that people gravitate towards. I think if you can get it, people will use it just because for fairly innocuous reasons, I think at first, because it's a very high stress environment, which I then think kind of bleeds into their partying and then their abuse as well. Liz (08:20) Yeah, I mean, it really is the perfect storm. know, like the campus environment is like a breeding ground for the uncertainty regarding your identity, some of the contextual factors that really contribute to these mental health challenges that you'd be searching for ⁓ things to either regulate your mood state or help you perform at a higher level. Heather (08:24) Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Liz (08:43) I'm so interested by, I want to stick on the book before we maybe get into a little bit about you outside the novel. How did you come up with the title? I love the title. Heather (08:48) Sure. The title is from King Lear. It's from a scene towards the end of the play where King Lear is losing his mind really, or is perhaps pretending to lose his mind. You don't really know. And I think the full line is like, we will all laugh at Gilded Butterflies. And I just, I've always loved the line and I just thought... I love the gilded imagery. think that that's exactly what these girls kind of are. I just, love, I've always loved that image. So yeah, my publishers, luckily we're happy to use it. College Is Fine Podcast (09:24) So I always get really, anytime I hear an author interviewed or even as I'm reading a book, they'll pull up some quote and I just think, well, shit, I thought I read a lot of books, but I have no idea what they're talking about. It feels like people who are writers have that library and their minds. you just, yeah, I'm like, ⁓ guess I should read some King Lear. All right, I'll get on that. Liz (09:25) You Heather (09:39) Thank King Lear is definitely not, it's not your everyday, it's not a light read. Yeah. No, I wouldn't reread it if I didn't have to. Yeah. Liz (09:51) You College Is Fine Podcast (09:53) You know what, maybe and actually as I say that I'm gonna skip it. I'm just, not gonna read King Lear. I lied just then, I'm not going to. I hope that's okay to our listeners. I'm just gonna let that one go. That's not on my bucket list. That's not on my bucket list. Well, as you're going through the writing process, you know, a lot of people, I don't know, I think they have an interesting take on writing. It's sort of like they either love it or hate it. You know, it's either something you just have to get through or they find that they really love journal writing, et cetera. Is there part of... Heather (10:16) Mm. Mm. College Is Fine Podcast (10:22) You know, when you think about your writing, how have you used it or not to help you get through some things? Like what's its role for you? Is it just a career? And then follow up to that. When have you struggled to keep going in writing in some way and how have you gotten past it? Heather (10:42) Sure. Writing can be really cathartic and I think in some way it's always cathartic for me because my fiction is always in some way rooted in things that I've observed or felt or read about and so paging them can be very, can be a very good way to kind of work through whatever is in your mind, even if it's fiction. So I do think I struggle a bit with journaling now that I write and kind of like I'm writing books that people are actually reading because I think even casual writing now has slightly higher stakes. So it's kind of hard to just pick up and just write whatever because you want everything to be good or even usable. ⁓ Liz (11:05) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (11:20) You're more of a critic of your own journal writing now. Do you have an editor now, an editor's mind? Yeah. man. Heather (11:22) Yeah, yeah, like, my, is this poetic enough? Yeah. Is this publishable? I'm trying to move away from that and just let myself kind of journal, however, but I think the hardest thing for me in writing is continuing in the face of rejection. Writers always talk about it's just a career of rejection unless you're kind of one of these stars. And it's hard to kind of just here, you know, that it's not right and so on, or that it's not commercial or whatever it is, and keep going. This book is, I don't necessarily think the most commercial. That's some of the feedback I've gotten about having it published by such a great press that supports it as definitely kind of galvanized my appreciation for publishing, especially with small presses and indie presses that are willing to take risks on more absurdist stuff, more less mainstream stuff. But yeah, think rejection, overcoming it can be one of the hardest bits. College Is Fine Podcast (12:22) Yeah, mean, a rejection is likely to happen in most careers in some way. I think that certainly as a writer, you're having to put your own personal product out there. But anytime someone's interviewing, they're selling themself, right? And so I think that there is a certain skill set to managing rejection. So when you get rejected or when you talk to other writers who've had to overcome some disappointment, Heather (12:25) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (12:46) What are some things people have done? Have you ever gotten, like what are some strategies you've used or have you picked up any strategies from fellow writers? Heather (12:53) Well, one of them is just talking to other writers. I think as writers we can, I think we tend to be perhaps a little bit more introverted just by nature because we choose to kind of write about people instead of talk to them. But yeah, exactly. But when you really start talking to people, you realize just how much everyone else is dealing with this too. It can feel like it's me, it's my writing, nobody wants it. College Is Fine Podcast (13:06) You're observers. Heather (13:19) ⁓ but you realize just how much is it's so fundamental to the industry and you won't talk to a writer that isn't experiencing it and also has experienced setbacks because of it. So I think just speaking to other writers, connecting with them, one of them through social media, can reassure you that this is just a natural process of what you're doing. A lot of people are in it as well, ⁓ which can be a galvanizing feeling. College Is Fine Podcast (13:44) Yeah, so finding a support group, finding people who are similar, have something similar to what you're going through and then sharing it. Because I think a lot of times, you mentioned social media, right? An interesting place to find support in a way. So I'd love to hear more about that because so many people, and I know we're talking a lot about writing here, but if our listeners are thinking I want to be an accountant, right? Heather (14:04) Yeah. Thank you. College Is Fine Podcast (14:06) It might not have the same sort of level of rejection, but you still have to go out and review. You have to send your resume out. You might or might not get a response. So I can really see how being around people who are going through what you're going through and then sharing that and hearing like, oh, here's what I tried, or I know this is just part of the process and it sucks, can be really supportive. Heather (14:25) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (14:26) do you balance the support of social media versus the compare and despair aspect of social media. Heather (14:32) Yeah, that, ⁓ that's the double-edged sword about writer social media and bookish social media. You can be just inundated by new publications. There's more books being published than ever. They all sound so amazing and there's so many amazing writers in literary fiction right now. and it it's balance between seeing all of these amazing deals and of course being happy for your fellow writers and then the inevitable comparison that comes from that. So I think for me, it's just about being very deliberate about what I interact with, what I follow. I try not to follow like presses themselves because then I'm just getting new books constantly all the time, which can actually be very overwhelming. I like to follow College Is Fine Podcast (15:15) Mm-hmm. Heather (15:18) Writers who are kind of in the same level as me, debut writers, tend to be very supportive of one another, which has been great. There's a lot of debut author communities online. College Is Fine Podcast (15:26) Yeah, that's good. All right. So find other debuees, whatever that means to you guys. Heather (15:30) Mm-hmm, yeah. Liz (15:32) Remember that beats to you Heather, I'm really curious, you know, we have, and it's around this time of year too, like the undecided, like the kids who don't really know what they want to major in and really are struggling with their career choice. And I do find in the arts, it tends, you know, we had ⁓ a researcher from Boston College on like talking about their book about how to help people kind of find their purpose and meaning in life. Heather (15:44) Yeah. Yeah. Liz (16:01) and not end up with a degree that they can't do anything with because they thought their dad did the same thing, so they should just major in that. ⁓ I'd be really interested in what was your journey becoming a writer? Were there any pivotal inflection points in your life that helped you feel confident in your decision because you're now getting your PhD in... I don't know exactly what you're getting your PhD in, but... Heather (16:04) Yeah. Yeah. English literature, yeah. Yeah. Liz (16:26) English literature, so like you're far on your journey here. So maybe you could tell the listeners a little bit about that and any advice maybe you might have for them. Heather (16:35) Yeah, I absolutely understand the confusion about what you want to do. applied for my PhD program three or four years ago, but I remember pulling out my undergraduate transcript and it has all of your major changes on it. And my thing was like a page long. I changed my major like 15 times while I was an undergrad. So I was a late bloomer when it came to like finding my path. Liz (16:56) You Heather (17:03) I felt very lucky to have won a couple of like undergraduate writing awards early, which really gave me confidence. That was like the first kind of external validation. ⁓ and I think that was actually looking back really important to me continuing on. but first I think came reading for me. So I ended up studying English literature, and Liz (17:15) Mm-hmm. Heather (17:27) as a byproduct, I think I just wanted to keep writing as well. The more I read, the more I wanted to write. And it kind of just naturally coalesced, I think. I try to keep them separate. So I try to treat my academic work as academic work. I do 19th century poetry, which is not fun for me, for example. It's not my pleasure reading. So it feels very academic to me. ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast (17:48) Yeah Heather (17:51) whereas my fiction is much more about contemporary womanhood and women's fiction. So eventually they kind of fed into each other, but it took me ages. I was looking at my transcript like, my God, why was I was like a political science major at one point, know, all kinds of, all kinds of things. ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast (18:10) was actually, okay, first of all, what is your pleasure reading? And then I'll admit mine, which is embarrassing. Heather (18:15) sure, no I ⁓ have some really embarrassing ones. I'm all over the place, I really really like everything. I do a lot of literary fiction, mainly about women. I also will read mafia romance. yeah, like self-published. College Is Fine Podcast (18:29) There we go. That's what I was looking for. Wait, mafia romance is a new genre to Liz (18:35) genre College Is Fine Podcast (18:36) me. And now, now it might be my favorite type of book. in your, in your, when we follow up, you'll be giving me a list of your faves. Liz (18:43) I mean, yeah, yeah. I feel like, is it like sopranos vibes? Yeah. Heather (18:45) No, but be prepared. I couldn't even do it justice by explaining it. But be prepared when you dive into this. It's like this is self-published like mafia romance, by the way. And it has like 20,000 purchases on Amazon though. There's a very dedicated community. But once you dive into it, your world will open about the romance sub-genres out there. College Is Fine Podcast (18:58) Amazing. Liz (18:58) Right, love. College Is Fine Podcast (19:05) man. Heather (19:12) all kinds of things. So yeah, sometimes I go through like a hardcore romance phase, but I'm a big fan of like bouncing around. I read all kinds of things. College Is Fine Podcast (19:12) goodness. Yeah, I am. There's actually a club in Nashville called something like the Smut book club. Apparently, I'm not saying that's mafia romance by any stretch, but I'm just, yeah, it could. Heather (19:30) Yeah. Liz (19:36) Could be. Well, yeah. Heather (19:38) I'm sure that they've delved into it. Liz (19:42) Well, I'm happy to hear. I think it's always great for college students to, you I feel like in eighth grade, they need to decide their major and where they're going to school. You know, there's this like immense pressure to appear really competent and confident in the direction that they're going in. And I always love to hear that, somebody found where they Heather (19:53) Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Liz (20:04) really feel comfortable being and existing within the world and building a career after a lot of starting and stopping. ⁓ I think that's, know, people have a lot of, we talk a lot about what our people's expectations are of college and what the realities really are. And I don't think there's enough conversation about what's really normal and maybe what's helpful to you. Like you being able to kind of like check off, okay, this isn't for me, this isn't for me, but like you were always able to fall back to writing. Heather (20:11) Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Liz (20:33) really maybe ⁓ was helpful to you landing where you are now. Heather (20:33) Exactly. Liz (20:39) we we talk a lot about this concept in therapy called like a parent competence where we you know, and I do think this happens a lot at college. You know, you make this big investment emotionally, financially to go to school. And whether you're talking to your friends from home or your parents, you know, like and where the concept of the title of our podcast, like college is fine. Everything's fine, you know. ⁓ So I thought it'd be fun to like. Heather (20:51) Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (21:01) Put on a smile. Yeah. Liz (21:07) Talk about your two main characters, right? And if Heather (21:08) Sure. Liz (21:09) we were interviewing them on the podcast, what would they say about college being fine from their lens or perspective? Heather (21:17) Yeah, think Stella would tell you it's amazing. I think she would tell you she's having the best time. I think she'd want to come across as very much in control of the whole situation. That's her whole thing. She's like the girl that you see and you want to be her because she seems like she's got it all in control. She's popular, beautiful. She seems, you everything seems great. And I think that that's probably the image that she might project. Of course, that's not the case at all. And yeah, that's the kind of problem with talking about college. think, especially at that age, you want to feel in control of your life. You want to seem like everything makes sense and it often doesn't. I think Penny would probably be a little bit more open. Yeah. Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (21:59) You Liz (21:59) more honest. College Is Fine Podcast (22:03) Well, for people to know a little bit more about why Stella and Penny might say that, we really encourage you guys to read the Gilded Butterfly effect. I think anybody would probably find something in there that feels familiar. And if you're not in college yet, right, it can give you a little preview. Maybe not what's to come. I don't know if ketamine is necessarily in your future. Heather (22:17) Yeah. What to avoid maybe, yeah. Liz (22:21) Yeah, right, right. So when is the release date, Heather again? Heather (22:25) October 21st. Liz (22:27) Okay. College Is Fine Podcast (22:27) October 21st, the Gilded Butterfly Effect with author Heather Coley. We've loved meeting you! Heather (22:31) Thank you so much. Thank Liz (22:33) Thanks Heather (22:33) you. Liz (22:33) so much for being on. Heather (22:33) It so great to talk to you both.