Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 259 - How to Guide a Prodigal Back to the Lord

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Ep. 259 - How to Guide a Prodigal Back to the Lord · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Speaker 1: We've often said to each other someone came up with a 16-wheeler, 18-wheeler trailer load of diamonds and said you can have the whole lot if you turn your back on Christ.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I'd spit on those diamonds, I'd say take those stupid pieces of glass away from me, I'm not even interested.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: And Paul said the same thing that we might have Christ treasure in earthen vessels.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: The life source dwells within us.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: So the genuine convert puts his hand to the plow, doesn't even look back.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: The false convert is like Lot's wife she just gazes back at the world.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: And so if the world has any pleasure for you, something's wrong.
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the all-new Try to Finish the Dad Joke game, where we try to finish the dad joke.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: All right guys, we haven't done dad jokes on here in a while.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: We should change the name to Dead Joke.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: Dead Jokes is pretty much what the kids would say.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: All right guys, it's your job, as I your lovely guy here, host, whatever you call me says a dad joke and you have to try to finish it.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Ray, why do you look disgusted?
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: I just don't know what's coming.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the point of it all.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: All right, here we go, guys.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Wait, I don't know how to finish that Wait.
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know how to finish that.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: Okay, guys, you understand this.
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: Right now is your ultimate opportunity to prove that you are the daddiest of all dad jokesters.
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: Bring it All right.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: Here we go.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: I'm reading a book on anti-gravity.
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: It's impossible to put it down.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: Whoa.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: Look at that.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: Look at that smug look on Oscar's face.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: Why do I take so much pride in?
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: knowing you did that joke.
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: That's how low my life is.
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: He's like yeah.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: Got it.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: I got skill.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: All right, I used to be a baker but I couldn't make enough Dough.
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, wheezy died in the middle of wheezing.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Oscar.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, sir, sir, has anyone told you you look like Tom Cruise?
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: No, well, they're wrong.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: They're wrong.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: Ah no, you blew it.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: No, they got it right.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Has anyone told you you look like Tom Cruise?
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: They're wrong.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, well, he does look like we're going to edit out the no.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: That's right, alright.
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: I told my friend 10 jokes to make him laugh sadly.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Oh, this one's so good.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: I told my friend 10 jokes to make him laugh sadly.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: No pun in 10 dead.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: That's so cute.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: You guys are awful today.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: Why can't you trust stairs?
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: Because they're always up to something.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Both of it works though.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: I used to play piano by ear, but now I use my hands.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: That's such a Ray thing.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: You don't play with your hands, you play with your fingers.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: I've never seen anyone play with their hands.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, same thing, same thing.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: That's such a Ray thing.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Well, you don't play with your hands.
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: You play with your fingers.
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: I've never seen anyone play with their hands.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: That's cheap.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: I'm not buying it.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: That could be a new piano playing style.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Ray, you have one you always talk about.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: Oh, the door handles for the bathroom is filthy.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: Oh, I should have mentioned that's one of my favorites.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: That's so disgusting.
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: Why not your mouth?
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: Ken Ham would do something like that Ken.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: Ham would use his chin and mouth right.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: No, don't say mouth.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: It's going too far, yeah, way too far.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: All right, why?
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Oh no, I used to.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: Oh no, I did that.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: What do you call a pile of cats?
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: A meow-ton.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: That couldn't have been guessed.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, why don't scientists trust atoms?
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: Because they make up everything.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: Throw in an audience.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Laughter there.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: The other day I was at Costco and my grandma loves to go to Costco.
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: I'm telling you my grandma loves going to Costco.
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: They've got these giant racks of stuff and they've got boxes and boxes all tied together and this gigantic box of Kleenex fell on me.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: I was okay, there was just some soft tissue.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: I love it because I look over and I see he starts to get the smirk before he even starts.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: It's like my grandma my wife, my kids.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: Christians don't make good liars.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: That's his nostrils.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: Okay, two more guys and we're done.
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: I like these ones.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: What do you call a can opener?
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: That doesn't work.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: Can opener, Can't opener.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: Did you hear that one before?
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: No, okay, last one, ready.
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: What did one ocean say to the other ocean?
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: I see you.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: No, nothing.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: It just waved.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, I see you.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, friends.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: The torment is over.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: Oh no, to help us do our previous podcast.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: No, I'll save these for later.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, there's one more.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: I got to do One more, one more, one more.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: Why do peppers make such good archers?
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: Because they haveanero, because they habanero.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Sorry, what was the answer?
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: You were laughing while you were saying it.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: They habanero.
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: Habanero like habanero peppers.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: I don't like peppers.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Ray doesn't like ketchup.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: It's a stupid joke I put pepper on stuff now and I like ketchup.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: No, you don't.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: I do Salt and pepper.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: No, way.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I changed.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: Well, you know why I don't like pepper.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: No, he's talking about Salt and pepper.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know why I didn't like pepper.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: I've ever told you what I did when I was about nine, sneezed nine.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: No, no, I went through my mom's kitchen, grabbed every ingredient Of everything, put it all into a bowl, stirred it up and this is milk, flour, mustard, and I sniffed it.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Why would you do that?
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: And I never wanted pepper for a while.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait the next 60 or something years.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: I didn't like pepper Ray was 22 at the time.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: That was the prominent smell.
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: So you've been like this your whole life, sadly.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: I haven't had my whole life Ray.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: Okay, no, we're not just going to gloss over this.
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: Okay, we're not just going to move on.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, over this.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're not just gonna move on.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, friends, no, no, we're gonna pause here.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: You sniffed, yeah, well, what do you think I did it for?
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: There has to be a climax to why I put all that stuff in a bowl to see what it smelled like and I didn't ray you.
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: You seriously have problems.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you have to know that.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Right, look that's, this is how things have been discovered in life.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: How did they discover things?
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: They did a little sniff.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Behold the Lord's anointed.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: They did a little sniff.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: How did they discover America?
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: They did a little sniff, they put everything in a bowl.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: How did they?
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: discover electricity.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: They did a little sniff.
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: Oh Ray Comfort man, you are one of a kind All right friends.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: Here's a comment.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: This is from Joshua W, laid back and rich in the good old practical stuff.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: Wow, I love that subject line, joshua.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: I love the Living Waters podcast and ministry.
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: This podcast is laid back in the sense that you can tell these men are truly doing life together outside of the ministry walls.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: The stuff I've heard would be hard to script.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: I love seeing God at work through you guys, and you always bring wisdom to practical issues.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: Believers need Keep bringing God glory.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: We need to be laid back somewhere else.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: Hey, joshua W, thank you so much.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: That's encouraging and that's our aim to glorify the Lord.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: I hope we're doing it.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Write to Oscar, he'll send you a free pack of tracks.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: Wait, hold on.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: What kind of sweatshirt is that?
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's funny.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: What does it say?
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: What are you wearing?
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: Made in God's image, wow Made in God's image Wow, that is cool man Made in his image.
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: Where do you get this funky stuff?
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: This one was really cool.
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: Actually, it's this Christian couple online who designed Christian sweaters and t-shirts.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: What's on?
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: the sleeve Made in his image.
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: Same thing, oh, same thing.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: It's kind of in your face, isn't?
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: it.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: What's the website that?
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: really I don't remember, but if you Google search made in his image sweater I'm sure it'll come up.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Now that must have been expensive, because it's a lot of work on there.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: It was like $12.
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: No, it was a little more than $12.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: I have no idea, I don't remember how much.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it wouldn't be expensive, because that's a lot of, whatever they call it.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: You seriously never cease to amaze me, oscar.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: Thank you With your style.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: That wasn't a compliment, I had a feeling.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: All right, friends, this podcast is brought to you by the track sample pack.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: I can't talk today.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, by far the best thing you can get if you're wondering what sort of track is best for you, because we have all of our tracks, all of our booklets, inside there and you're able to really think through it, meditate through it, and this is the one for me.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: You know what?
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: That's crazy, mark.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: This is like one of those down memory lane moments, because I think I remember getting a track unless I'm mixing it up a track sample pack back before I even yeah, it was in an envelope we used to have an envelope yeah we put Superman.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Well, super Trax, it was called Super Trax.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was sniffing it.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: It's one of the most exciting things that we do carry, because you just spend an hour looking through all of them and reading them so well, and laughing and puzzles and all that yeah no, those are, man.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: it really is good because it gives you again a taste of what we provide as far as tracts go and could stir you up and look it's not just to look at.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: After you've looked at the ones that you like, go give them out and then order more and they're easy to give out and people ask for more.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Also gives them out too, not just easy yeah that's true, I give them out Good point.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: Mark.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: Good night, mark.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, don't forget friends, the track sample pack and the Living Waters mug and the Evidence Study Bible, all that Livingwaterscom.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the arrogant Livingwaterscom.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: It worked out.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: Thank God, we resisted.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: From heaven, frank, I just called you Frank.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Ray, it's okay what is going on, I can handle it here's your Ray, this whole sniffing thing.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: is this why you You're still not over it?
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't get over the sniffing thing.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: Is this why you once told a boy that the bottom of a swimming pool smells funny.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: I didn't think it would happen.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: You know what happened, oscar, I don't know.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: I was in a swimming pool with about a nine, ten-year-old kid, who was just a little naive, nice kid, and I came up out of the water and looked at him and said, boy, funny smell on the bottom of this pool.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: he disappeared and come up choking that is so terrible to do yeah, ray, did I tell you about the chocolate milk one?
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: no, I had this friend uh, she's a history teacher now, but she calls me one day.
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: She's like leaving her college class.
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: She's like hey, I have a question for you, but I think it's kind of weird.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Don't laugh and I go.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: No, go ahead, I won't laugh, she goes no, I don't want to ask you.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: I'm like no, come on, ask me, I won't.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: And I just started laughing.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: Wait, wait, I got her.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: I got her.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: Wait, wait, she was joking.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: No, she's probably telling someone now.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: He thought I took it seriously?
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Was it your?
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: ex-girlfriend that became your wife.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: No, oh man, that's funny, brown cows.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Brown cows?
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, fran, that'd be a great name for chocolate milk.
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: Brown cow chocolate milk, how, now?
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Brown cow chocolate milk, if that would work.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: All right, fran.
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: Today we are dealing with the topic how to guide a prodigal back to the Lord.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: Ray, you know for years You're a prodigal.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: What You're still a prodigal?
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: Wow, mark is on today.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: That was quick, ray.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: Obviously you have for years talked about how oftentimes the church makes the mistake of affirming those who don't really know the Lord as those who do know the Lord, but they're just backslidden.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: They haven't slid forward in the first place, they're false.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Explain that Well, there are tears among the weak, foolish virgins among the wise, and we deal with this in true and false conversion.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: A lot of people say, oh, he knew the Lord, but then he went out and murdered his grandmother eight times, or something like this.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: It's a bit of an exaggeration.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: You'll know them by their fruits, and Judas was never a believer.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Jesus said one of you is a devil.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: That's a little clue that Judas wasn't genuine.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: And there are a lot of people in Judas' category.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: They never see Jesus for who he is, and so they make a commitment, make a decision and never bring forth fruits that are worthy of repentance, usually because they haven't seen the sin in its true light.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: So we call backsliders backsliders, when they're not really backsliders, because they didn't slide forward in the first place.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: They're false converts, spurious converts, of which the Bible speaks very clearly in the parable of the sower.
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: That's good, ray, sounds like you've said that once or twice before I was thinking the prodigal son thing is being seen from a slightly different direction.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: The first prodigal was Adam.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Adam didn't realize what he had.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: There's a famous song from the 60s it's you Don't Know what You've Got Till it's Gone.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Sing it no, no, I can, you can't, yes, you can Watch.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: You don't know what you got until it's gone.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: Like the friend you had named Dizzy from Lebanonbanon yeah that was actually a song that was good, thank you.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: That was a really good screen, thank you, but it was really, the adam didn't know what he had until it was gone.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: When he fell, he realized what he'd given up, and it was the same with the prodigal son.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Yep, he had a relationship with a father that he didn't appreciate, and it's just reminding me, as I was thinking of this this morning, how we used to have a bird aviary that was more complex than the one we've got now.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: I had a bird aviary in which we had tame birds in a cage that we could see through this window, which had a reflective glass on it.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: So the birds didn't know we were looking at them.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: We watched birds that didn't realize we were watching them.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: I remember that.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: But on the outside there were wild birds that would come in and get the food and that.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: And I often thought how do my birds that are captive feel about the wild birds?
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: They sometimes look at the sky and think, oh, I wish I could be free.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Or look at the trees and think, oh, those birds, those wild birds out there are up in the trees doing their own thing.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: One day something changed, something happened that changed my mind about the whole thing, and it was horrific.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: A hawk came sweeping down, grabbed one of those wild birds and I heard a scream, a wail from the bird.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: I'd never, ever want to hear again.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: It was just horrific.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: It was this little screech of terror and I ran around to try and rescue it, because the bird just had it in its hooks, holding it like that, and I was just going to pick it and it just off.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: It flew.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: And I saw it flying off and I came back and thought I wonder what my tame birds are thinking now.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I wonder if this is not a prison.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: This is a protection of things.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: This is not a prison, this is a protection.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: And that's exactly how the Christian kid feels about his parents telling him what he can't do you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't be free to do this like the world.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: It's not a prison.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: You're in Christian home.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: It's a protection for you because you go ahead 20 years and look at those wild birds, those wild kids, and there's abortions's suicides, there's alcoholism, there's drug addiction, there's premature deaths because they're out doing their own thing and are not on the confines of a christian home.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: So you don't know what you've got until it's gone.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: And that's what the prodigal son, the revelation he had as he sat in that pigsty yeah, I didn't know what I had when I was under my father's protection, and that's he said even my father's servants have got it better than me.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: I'll go back to my father, and so it's a wonderful type of just realizing what Adam had and what he fell from and us realizing what we've got ahead of us.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: Man Ray.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: That's really, that's really-.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: We need to let.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: Ray, speak more.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, ray, speak more.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: Ray, speak more.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: Ray, speak more.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: Ray, speak more Ray.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, ray, when you were talking about that, not realizing what you have and the regret it just made me think of certain men who've committed adultery.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: And they go out and they chase some woman that's just dazzling to them and then they do whatever they do and then they look back and they realize he takes makeup off.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he sees what he got.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: But they realize how amazing their wife was, this woman who was loyal to them for 20, 30 years, who took care of them, who was oh man.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: There's a testimony in the Evidence Bible of a guy that committed adultery.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: He said I didn't realize what I had.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: And he says this is what I've got after I committed adultery a wife that doesn't love me, kids that are brats and he just went on this huge list of what he'd given up and what he had got through one act of adultery.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: For momentary selfish pleasure, you know.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: And then you know, even like the woman who committed, you know the woman who had an abortion, you know, and she bought into the lie that it's just, it's your choice.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: And you know the first of all, the trauma, trauma, the psychological trauma that results from that is real and serious.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: But later on she can't have kids and she's looking at little children and thinking I murdered my own child and I can't.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Like that, not realizing what you had.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: You know it's huge.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: But, mark, I think we need to take a look at the whole prodigal realm, I think, from two different standpoints and we don't want to confuse things.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: So there is the prodigal who is a genuine believer, who can stray but yet is broken over their sin, like we saw David he strayed, he was a man after God's own heart and he foolishly strayed, but he ended up coming back.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Then you have the prodigals who are not saved and today we want to talk about how do you go after either of those.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: You know, but I think it may be good at this juncture to just speak to eternal security, because I know immediately when these things come up a lot of times believers, who are genuine believers, begin to freak out.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: We do want to address those who are consoling themselves that they're believers, but they're living in sin.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: But for those who are genuine, speak to eternal security.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Mark, how important that is In scripture I think it's a sermon on the Mount when there's gonna be people that are gonna recognize Jesus as Lord and he's gonna say "'Depart from me, you worker of iniquity "'I never knew you'".
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: That cannot be the case if at one point he actually knew you.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: So this right there speaks of if you're saved, you're always saved.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: We like maybe a slightly better terminology like that that if you are a child of God, you can no longer become a non-child of God.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: That God is going to protect you.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: He's going to hedge around you.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: The angel of the Lord encampuses around those who fear him and he sings songs of deliverance.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: We take refuge under the shadow of his wing.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: That he is going to lead you until that day of salvation when you are ultimately led to the beam of seat.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: That is a done deal.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Romans 8 talks about for the believer that not only is he justified and sanctified, set apart for holy work, but it also talks about being glorified, as in a past tense way.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: That the believer is already glorified in one sense, in that it's a done deed that our names are written in heaven and there's no eraser strong enough that can eliminate us from God's presence and from his book.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: That's very important to know, right.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: This is a beautiful thing to come to grips with, because when you come to grips with the fact that nothing can separate me from God, that when I mess up he didn't go anywhere, right, fellowship can be broken for sure, and this is why it's like come confess your sins to the Lord.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: 1 John 1, 9 was written to the believer, not the non-believer.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: If we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Right, we strayed from the path and I think a really good picture of that and I was just reading today inside of John's Gospel when Jesus washes the feet of the apostles and Peter pipes up and he says listen, don't wash my feet.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: I was waiting for Peter Piper.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: He picked a pickled pepper.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Pickled peppers Pickled, pickled for peter piper.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: He picked a pickle peppers pickled peppers, and, and he didn't want to start washed, right, and jesus said no, I you know, if I don't do this, then you have no part with me.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: And he goes well, then my whole body, yeah.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: But jesus says something very interesting there.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: He says your whole body doesn't need to be clean, right, that they're already clean by the word which he's spoken.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: The metaphor here is listen, sometimes you walk in places where you shouldn't walk and sometimes our feet just get dirty and you don't need to be re-baptized if you would.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: You just need to have a good cleansing, you just need to kind of come back.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: So the beautiful aspect of this is your sin is not greater than your Redeemer, right?
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Your Redeemer is greater than your past, and you just need to kind of come to your senses.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: We will continually battle with sin until the day we die, and this is why we have an advocate who stands before the Father, whoever lives, to make intercession for us.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: Well articulated, mark.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: Ray, I want you to touch on something, and then Oscar, I want to come back to you, ray, I want you to touch on something and then Oscar, I want to come back to you.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Ray, I want you to kind of elaborate a little bit on what Mark cited, that you often say I wasn't listening.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know you weren't listening, so I'm going to bring you up to speed.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: I knew you weren't.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: You know, there's the whole once saved, always saved, but you phrase it in a way that I love.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: If saved, always saved.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: Just clarify that, would you.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the genuine and I don't know if that's original, the genuine convert puts his hand to the plow and doesn't look back.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Luke 9, 62.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: And it really comes back to why did you come to Christ?
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: And sorry to fall back on this analogy, but if you put a parachute on to escape the jump that's to come, you'll never take it off.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Doesn't matter what goes on in the plane, if it gets turbulence, if all sorts of fun things happen, you're not going to take that parachute off.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: It's prioritized to stay on your back.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: And the Bible says put on the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: And we put on the Lord Jesus Christ to escape the wrath to come.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: That's what Thessalonians tells us.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Thessalonians tells us, even Jesus, who saves us from wrath to come.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: So as long as I know, I'm going to have to pass through death and it could happen at any moment.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: There's no way I'm going to take off the Lord Jesus Christ.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: It's a ridiculous thought and we've often said to each other someone came up with a 16-wheeler, 18-wheeler trailer load of diamonds and said you can have the whole lot if you turn your back on Christ.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I'd spit on those diamonds.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: I'd say take those stupid pieces of glass away from me, I'm not even interested.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: And Paul said the same thing.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: That we might have Christ treasure in earthen vessels, the life source dwells within us.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: So the genuine convert puts his hand to the plow, doesn't even look back.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: The false convert is like Lot's wife she just gazes back at the world.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: So if the world has any pleasure for you, something's wrong.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so good, you know.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: 1.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: John 2.19,.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Easy, obviously you have the whole Bible memorized.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: But it says they went out from us.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: They were not of us, for if they had been of us they would have continued with us, but they went out that they might be made manifest that none of them were of us.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: So they left us, but they never really left us because they were never really with us, and it just demonstrates where their heart truly was at.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly yeah.
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: And then, oscar, you have the prodigal that does know the Lord.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: And yet they, in a moment of weakness, strayed, sinned, you know, gave in to the lust of the flesh.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: Galatians makes it clear that the flesh and the spirit are at war with one another.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: That's why Paul says I say then walk in the spirit, you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: But there are those prodigals that are genuine believers and that have strayed.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: What do you say to them?
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: What do you say about that?
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: And how do we reach them.
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: That's really good.
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: You know what it's like.
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: It's like I used to have these birds.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: Do we reach them?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: That's really good.
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: You know what it's like.
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: It's like I used to have these birds.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: I've had a number of conversations, I've walked with a few people who I think would fall into that category and I've seen some beautiful redemptive work in them.
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: And I think one of the things you know we talk often about evangelism and apologetics.
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: I think sometimes our approach to evangelism and apologetics focuses so much on truth and goodness, as it should.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: And what I mean by that is like the scriptures tell us that there's three things.
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: You can categorize, three things about God truth, beauty and goodness.
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: And I think in apologetics we often depend on truth, as we should.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: We often depend on goodness, the virtues that are offered through the gospel, as we should.
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: But often in our attempt at apologetics and evangelism we forget about the beauty, the beauty of the gospel, the affection and the love that we have for the Lord.
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: And it reminds me of Thomas Chalmers' quote.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: He says the love of the world cannot be expunged by a mere demonstration of the world's worthlessness, in other words, like simply to look at the world and go it's ugly.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: It's bad, it's terrible.
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: Repent, repent, repent.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: Thomas Chalmers says we need to do more than that.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: He says, but may it not be supplanted by the love of that which is more worthy than itself.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: In other words, what Chalmers is telling us is that we need to move people from an affection of the world, not just by reminding them about how worthless it is, but also to remind them of the beauty that we find and the glory that we find in the love of God.
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: In other words, we need to turn them from seeing the things of the world and remind them of the love that they have with God.
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: And this is key, ultimately why people go astray.
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: Oftentimes they'll think it's an issue of the head.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: Well, I just started thinking about the inerrancy of scripture.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: Well, I just started thinking about this.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: Well, I started thinking about that, and that's when my faith started to wobble.
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: But actually our wobbly faith is an issue of the heart, not the head.
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: I love Keller.
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: He says like every year he's got college students, that goes off to college, and then every Easter break or summer they come back and inevitably one of them will text him and say, hey, I need to talk, I'm struggling in my faith.
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: And he would sit down and the guy would talk about the inerrancy of scripture, the problem evil, and Keller would just go, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: And when he was done, he goes.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: So who are you sleeping with?
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: And when he was done, he goes.
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: So who are you sleeping with?
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: And the point that he was making is that, like our uncertainty, our lack of affection for God starts with a new affection.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: What we need to do is point people's hearts back to the glory of God, replace one affection with the greater affection, so that there's a new fervor and a new love.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: A re-reminder restore to me the joy of my salvation right.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's so key and oftentimes there is that kind of turning from but not a turning to, and we need to magnify the beauty of who the Lord is.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: You know, I think sometimes, when it comes to the prodigal who is within the confines of the church, okay, let's put aside whether or not they're genuinely converted or not, but they have publicly and openly identified with the church.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I think that one of the biggest tragedies in the church today is the church does not practice church discipline.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: And you're raising a very good point on the importance of church membership?
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, because how can you discipline someone who isn't an official member of your church?
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Because if someone hasn't taken that step to make it official in the sense that, like we can get away, people get so caught.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: Official in the sense that, like we can get away, people get so caught up in the where.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: Does the Bible say to sign a piece of paper?
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: Right, it's not about signing the piece of paper, it's not about the written documentation.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: The bottom line is is it's about a clear confirmation that you are under the authority of that church?
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: It's for your safety.
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's for your safety, it's for the authority of that church.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: It's for your safety, yeah it's for your safety, it's for the health of the church.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: But if that isn't done, who knows who's really a part of that church?
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: Because someone can simply say oh hey, we have to put you under the church.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: Oh, this isn't really my church, I've just been visiting for 30 years you know, what I mean.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: So, but I think that the church is in trouble because it doesn't practice true church discipline.
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: And people hear church discipline, they think it sounds so harsh.
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: We're actually walking through a church discipline situation right now with a former pastor, and we reached out to other pastors for counsel to do this well, and one of the guys said something so good.
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: He said church discipline is like you saying, hey, we want you back, we want you here.
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: Here's the process and we are not going to stop pursuing you, but you might stop accepting that pursuit and when you stop accepting that pursuit we are gonna recognize it.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: So it's not like church discipline we think of, as like we're pushing this guy out, no man, it's pursuing them, but the disciplinary process lays out something for them to either accept or reject on their own behalf.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we wanna look at some of those passages like Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5 and 2 Thessalonians 3.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: But, ray, the church has a coddling problem, wouldn't you say?
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: They coddle sinners who are coddling their sin.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because a lot of churches and it just sounds terrible to say it even have pastors that are false prophets, false converts.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: We can accept that there are tears among the weak and foolish virgins, among the wise and bad fish, among the good within the pews, but when you talk about them being in the pulpits, then it becomes really.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: It's almost unbelievable that someone could get in a pulpit and not be soundly saved.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: But there are.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: And they don't have church discipline because they don't fear God and they don't see sin in its true light.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: They don't really care about people.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: So there's that problem.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Our churches are full of false converts and so are our pulpits.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Just changing the subject very slightly well, it's erratically changed.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about the prodigal son, and his older brother wasn't tempted to run away from his father.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I was wondering why?
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Because Jesus brings the prodigal son, it comes back to the oldest son, it's rounded off and I wonder if there's something there that could be thought of.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Were you a firstborn Easy?
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: No, you weren't.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: I was the last Firstborn.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're the oldest, I you weren't, I was the last Firstborn yeah Child of your firstborn.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: You're the oldest I am the oldest.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: I'm not the oldest Because we treated our oldest different than we treated our youngest when it came to photos.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: We took a thousand photos of Jacob when he was firstborn, and Jacob and Daniel didn't get any.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: It's the opposite Jacob and Daniel Really.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: It's the opposite.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: Jacob and Daniel, really.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: Rachel and Daniel.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Did I tell you this?
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, rachel, I'm still on my point.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Fair, fair.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: But yeah, we also disciplined our oldest more than we did our youngest, and it was because the eldest would say to the youngest don't do that, you're going to get in trouble.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: So did you find it different to be a younger kid than your older brother?
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I had four other disciplinarians besides my parents.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Oh really.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Well yeah, especially in the Arab culture, Anyone can basically tell you all.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Your neighbor can discipline you almost.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty interesting how the Arab culture works.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean it definitely had its different, I guess, pros and cons, but yeah, Oscar was going to say something.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: I carry on saying nothing.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: More humorous.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: It was the opposite for me, because I was a, I mean, my mom was a teenager when she had me and then when I got older, like you know, the oldest is normally the one that gets all the attention.
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: But then my mom had triplet sisters when I was 13, triplet girls when I was 13 years old and we have like maybe five pictures of me, so you became a non-offend.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, my sisters have photo albums and videos and we got none of that.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: And then we always give my mom a hard time because we noticed one day that one of her social media accounts was like mother of three.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: And we're like mom, you have four kids it was the other one you don't really count, Oscar, yeah yeah.
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: It was pretty funny.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all right.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: So, mark, I want you to speak to this.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: This is an example of how you deal with a prodigal.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: In Scripture.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: This is 1 Corinthians 5, and in verse 1 it says it is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles that a man has his father's wife, obviously his stepmother, and you are puffed up and have not rather mourned that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: And, mark, this is where, in fact, I think that sometimes, because so much of the church is, by and large, biblically illiterate, if you were to read this to someone and not tell them it's from the Bible in today's contemporary church, they'd be like what Put someone from the church?
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: But that's where they get love.
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: No, you don't remove someone from the church.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: What do you say to this?
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah well, let not sexual immorality be mentioned, even among you, right, First we got to be careful with coarse jesting and what we watch and what we joke about.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: All of those things are so very important.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Matt Schmucker, he said sin in the church left unaddressed, it hurts our evangelism, leaves the proud unchecked, confuses young believers, hardens the unrepentant and, worst of all, it brings shame on the name of Christ.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I was visiting a church two weeks ago and I was talking to one of the pastors about church discipline for his own daughter and he kept on referring to church discipline as a grace.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: As a grace, and we don't do that typically, right, Church discipline is not a grace.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: It's a harsh decision, it's a harsh word, it's an embarrassing act in front of the church body.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: No, it's a grace.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: We want to protect the sheep, but we obviously want to protect the sheep in light of all the sheep.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: If we're going to err on the side of grace, we err on the side of the grace towards the multitudes.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Right, we give people a chance to repent and if they don't repent, the most loving thing you can do is you hand them over to Satan for a season so that their bodies are buffeted, that Satan can do what he wants.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Now bear in mind that even Satan has a leash on them at all times.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Right, there's only so much that can take place and happen.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: But the most loving thing we can do is to deal with sin graciously inside of somebody's life.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: But we're not there to make fun of someone.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: All sorts of things and steps are put in place so that it doesn't have to go before the church.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Matthew 18,.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: You go to them first by yourself.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: They're not listening, they're not receiving what you say.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Well then you bring another brother with you or two people with you.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: They don't receive that.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: You go to the elders.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: The elders are trying to deal with it.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: The elders can't get through.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Then you bring it before the church so that the rest fear respectfully.
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: You know you look through the Old Testament.
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: I think one of the problems is that when we talk about discipline, we relate it to the experience that we may have had growing up as kids.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: You know, when I was disciplined, I was disciplined out of anger.
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: My mom or a stepdad would try to discipline me out of anger, out of wrath, from their own flesh, and that's not a discipline you're thankful for.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: But when you look at the Old Testament, any time the Lord goes to his people in a disciplinary manner, you know what happens.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: After they praise him, they thank him for keeping his covenant, for pursuing them, for putting them on the right path, and so church discipline, ultimately, is our opportunity to come alongside and act as the hand of discipline of the Lord, to do it in a way that again invites them into repentance, invites them back into the grace of God.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: What's that text?
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Ez Open rebuke is better than love, quietly consider.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I can't remember the reference.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, probably, yeah but Ray that's such a good point, oscar, and I want to correlate this with the Lord in terms of what discipline is for, and it's love.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: But Ray in Hebrews 12 says it's quoting again the Old Testament "'And you have forgotten the exhortation "'which speaks to you as to sons, "'my son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord "'nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by him.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: "'for whom the Lord loves, he chastens "'and scourges every son whom he receives.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: "'if you endure chastening, god deals with you as with sons.
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: For what son is there whom a father does not chasten or discipline?
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: But if you're without chastening or discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is talking about the discipline of the Lord.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: It's an extension of God's love and, by virtue of that very fact, discipline is also the extension of God's love to his straying people through the church.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: I just like to bounce off what Oscar was saying about discipline.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: It's almost nervous to say it, even on a Christian program, but spear the rod and spoil the child.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: I had a revelation when we first had our kids.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: I read I think it was Deer to Discipline by James Dobson, and it was either him or someone else talked about not using your hand to chasten your kid.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: This is the hand that loves.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: If you've got a little stick that you can hit around the area, that was designed for that very purpose, that is not your hand hitting them.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: It's the rod that they fear, not your hand, and I thought it was a great point.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: And the other thing, the reason I didn't want to mention this, because I read where it's important if you discipline a child in love without anger, you should make them cry because that releases their anger.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: And I remember when I disciplined our oldest like that, he said something to his mom that he shouldn't say.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: I said you're in trouble, Go and just bend over the bed.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: And really quick Was it last week no it was the week before and he cried and then I came back five minutes later with a Kleenex and wiped his tears and we had a hug and we went back and I began doing the dishes and he sat at the table and he started writing and I said what are you writing?
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: And I turned his paper around and it says I love my dad.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: Whoa, this is one of your kids.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, Jacob Wow.
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: And it really shows that if you discipline and love, the kid knows that you're setting boundaries, that you love them enough to discipline them.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: So it's not a discipline, a correction.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: You want to correct the child and say you can't do this Because if I let you say that to your mom, it's going to get worse as you get older.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: And I often say if you don't get them when they're little, you're going to lose them when they're older.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: Wow, so good, and yeah, and that's again the whole thing.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: Mark, you cited a few things from 1 Corinthians 5, but yeah, I mean, paul talks about giving such a one over to Satan.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: Right, and the whole purpose is for their sake, for the sake of the church.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: He talks in there about, you know, removing the leaven from among you.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: A little leaven leavens, a whole lump.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: There's influence, there's impact.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: The church sees, oh, they're permitted to live in that sin.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: Well, I guess I can too.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: Versus that chastening that says no, we love you, you know too.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: Versus that chastening that says no, we love you.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: Matthew 18 is another passage, of course.
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: If your brother sins against you and they're unrepentant, you come to them.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: They don't listen.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: You bring one or two more.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: They don't listen.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: You take them to the church.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: They don't listen.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Then you put them out of the church in the sense that it says but if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: In other words, you don't associate with him now in the same way that you would someone who is a full member of the body of Christ.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: And that's because you care about them.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: You don't want to give them a false sense of security.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Everything's fine.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: You're calling them to repentance.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: You're letting them sense the discomfort of being outside of the covering of the church and the communion of God's people all out of love.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Listen to what Jonathan Lehman said in his book.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: What Are the Standards for Membership?
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: He said by abstaining from discipline, we claim that we love better than God does.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: And here's the full context of that.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: It says the underlying purpose in every act of discipline, of course.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Well, it must be love Love for the individual, love for the church, love for the watching world, love for Christ.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: God, after all, disciplines the one he loves and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: By abstaining from discipline, we claim that we love better than God Repent.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: Ooh, that is one of the best quotes I've ever heard on that.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, really it's crazy to think of the statements we make by our actions or inactions right About God and about how we know better, because that's ultimately what it is.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: And there's this golden calf of an idol that the modern church bows before, and I call it the golden calf of it works, pragmatism, it works, right.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, hey, this is.
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: You know, we excommunicated someone once and just didn't go over, well, this and that, but we just let this guy stick around and hey, he ended up repenting.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Look, don't be foolish.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Don't ever try to substitute God's ways with what you think works, because I guarantee you, try to substitute God's ways with what you think works, because I guarantee you, in a thousand other ways it did not work.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: It was harmful to the church and it was rebellion against God, it was dishonoring to the Lord and his word, and so you have to really be careful with that.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: And you know Paul goes on in 1 Corinthians 5, again he says I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous or extortioners or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: But now I've written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother who is sexually immoral or covetous or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: Not even to eat with such a person I mean, scripture is clear here and this is talking about again the person who clearly objectively identifies with the body.
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: Everyone would look and say, oh yeah, that guy's a Christian, he belongs to this church and they're living in open sin and rebellion against God.
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: We're not to carry on with them as though everything's normal and fine, not to even eat, which means to have fellowship with that person, you know.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: And so these things are huge and important and we have to think about it.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: But we're also called to go after those right that have strayed from the Lord.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: And you know, in 2 Thessalonians 3, paul talks about it.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: He says but we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which you receive from us.
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: And then at the end he says that they are to not count him as an enemy but to admonish him as a brother.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: So there is that heart of going after someone, not in a manner of animosity but with the hope that, hey, if this is a brother, we want to win him back.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: We want to have the attitude that he was amongst us.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: He's not acting like a brother.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: We hope he's one.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: We want to try to draw him back in and not treat him like an enemy, call him to repentance, show him care, but let the discipline do its work.
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: When you remove someone from the church, it doesn't mean, when you see them, you just snarl at them and you idiot, you know, but you let the discipline do its work.
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: And then you just, hey, man, get right with the Lord.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: We plead with you.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: You're destroying your life here.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: Take the Kleenex to them.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, exactly right, and reach them with the love of the Lord in that way.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: And so yeah.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: And then let's not forget Galatians 5.1, 6.1, which says brethren.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: You know what I'm going to discipline all you guys for this nonsense.
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: But, brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself, lest you also be tempted, mark.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: You make me sick.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: You don't have to read that, you just have that memorized.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: But, mark, really, though, the importance of remembering that as we're pursuing those, especially those who are repentant, because sometimes, sadly, those in the church treat those who are repentant as if, though, they're still in sin, they condemn them and they're harsh toward them.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: The gentleness, how important is that, yeah well, listen, as far as the East is from the West, he removes our sins from us.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: When somebody is quick to confess and to repent, we need to be quick to move forward.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: It's just God's grace that that wasn't us and that sin wasn't our sin.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: So when somebody is genuinely legitimately seeking reconciliation and wanting to walk with God, don't hold it over them.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: In the past, I remember that you did this.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: Or if you're in an argument with your spouse and you're not seeing eye to eye, don't bring up past failures.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: It doesn't benefit anyone.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: So we need to be able to forget about our sin as quickly as God forget our sin, and he removed our sin from us.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: We need to forget about their sin as quickly as you forgot about that girl's name in the wedding.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Hey, listen to the podcast, good job.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: But yeah and I love what it says in there to considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: There's such an arrogance and pride in coming down on someone who's sinned and is repentant in that you think you're above that man, and it's happened time and again where someone who's done that ended up falling into the same thing.
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: Or you hear about these pastors that were getting harsh toward those in the homosexual community or transgender folks.
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: I mean like cruel and harsh and nasty.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: No love, no compassion, no attempt to reach them with the gospel, and then you end up finding out they're secretly involved in homosexuality.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: Right, this has literally happened.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: We know as someone who was a well-known pastor that this happened with, and it's sad and crazy.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: And so, friends, let's go after the prodigal.
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: Let's remember Luke 15, the father of the prodigal son.
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: His arms were open wide when that son returned.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Let's plead with them to be genuinely repentant and let's reach them with truth and with the gospel.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: There you have it, friends.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to end on nonsense today.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast.