Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 10: Church Friendships: The Loneliness Crisis in Ministry + 10 Resurrection Quotes for Easter Sermons and C.S. Lewis on Do Pets Go to Heaven?! With Dr. Michael Stewart, Pastor Grant Combs and Dr. Chris Smith

Transcript

Episode 10: Church Friendships: The Loneliness Crisis in Ministry + 10 Resurrection Quotes for Easter Sermons and C.S. Lewis on Do Pets Go to Heaven?! With Dr. Michael Stewart, Pastor Grant Combs and Dr. Chris Smith · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

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Speaker0: Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,
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Speaker0: soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship
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Speaker0: and the broader kingdom of God.
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Speaker0: Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole
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Speaker0: and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.
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Speaker0: Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal
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Speaker0: of making every church flourish.
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Speaker0: And welcome into episode number 10 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast by
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Speaker0: the Great Commission Association of California. Our website is everychurchflourishing.com.
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Speaker0: And today we have a great roundtable of guests for you, including Great Commission
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Speaker0: Association Director Dr.
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Speaker0: Michael Stewart, Seaside, California Pastor Grant Combs, and former missionary
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Speaker0: pastor and current president of the Great Commission Training Institution, Dr.
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Speaker0: Chris Smith. And in today's roundtable, We're going to discuss relationships
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Speaker0: in the church and hit on some really important and deep questions.
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Speaker0: Can pastors have real friendships with church members?
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Speaker0: How are deep-rooted friendships made in the church?
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Speaker0: There's a combination of factors that work together to keep pastors isolated.
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Speaker0: How can pastors and church leaders guard against that?
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Speaker0: We're also going to have 10 great resurrection quotes for your Easter sermon.
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Speaker0: Coming up this week, and we're going to hear from C.S. Lewis on whether or not
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Speaker0: our beloved pets go to heaven.
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Speaker0: Yes, he has an opinion on that, and yes, he actually makes a really profound case that they do.
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Speaker0: We're also going to be talking about the loneliness epidemic among pastors and
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Speaker0: church leaders and about how pastors, generally men,
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Speaker0: don't admit their problems and pains very easily, and they usually just hero
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Speaker0: up and pretend like everything is fine.
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Speaker0: When they are actually starved for deep friendships and relationships.
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Speaker0: And we're going to close out with a delicious soda review.
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Speaker0: So we had a bit of a technical glitch on our introductions to the roundtable panel today.
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Speaker0: I'm going to go ahead and introduce our guests now. The first voice you're going to hear will be Dr.
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Speaker0: Chris Smith, who, like I said, leads the Great Commission Training Institution,
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Speaker0: which is a mobile ministry-based school that focuses on training pastors and
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Speaker0: church leaders in both theology and practical ministry through some really excellent online classes.
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Speaker0: After that, you're going to hear from Grant Combs, who has pastored Lighthouse
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Speaker0: Baptist Church in Seaside for the past 11 years and is a 25-year resident of
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Speaker0: the beautiful Monterey Peninsula.
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Speaker0: And joining me on this episode and the next is co-host, as you've already heard,
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Speaker0: is Dr. Michael Stewart, the president of the GCA.
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Speaker0: And that GCA, Great Commission Association, is a group of nearly 100 Baptist
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Speaker0: churches that stretch from San Francisco down to Santa Barbara.
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Speaker0: In other words, from the setting of the detective TV show Monk all the way down
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Speaker0: to the setting of the detective TV show Psych.
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Speaker0: And there has been rumors that both Sean Spencer and Adrian Monk come to Dr.
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Speaker0: Stewart for both crime-fighting advice and other counseling,
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Speaker0: but honestly, I've been unable to verify those rumors to this point. Maybe...
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Speaker0: We will cover that in a future interview. But for now, let's dive into a very
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Speaker0: fun but also very revealing roundtable discussion.
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Speaker0: So right now, we have a roundtable. We're going to talk a little bit about the
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Speaker0: loneliness epidemic among pastors and church leaders.
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Speaker0: We're joined by GCA head Dr. Mike Stewart, also Dr.
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Speaker0: Chris Smith, and Pastor Grant Combs, all from the Central California area.
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Speaker0: Guys, I have some really alarming statistics that we need to talk through and
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Speaker0: kind of weigh the implications of.
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Speaker0: There are approximately, according to the Barna Group, two-thirds of pastors
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Speaker0: right now, 65% say that they have significant, regular, ongoing feelings of
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Speaker0: loneliness and isolation.
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Speaker0: And that is a big increase just in the last 11 years.
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Speaker0: In 2015, it was 42%. Now it's 65%.
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Speaker0: And same thing from 2015 to 2023,
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Speaker0: the percentage of pastors who feel like they have true friends was at 34% in
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Speaker0: 2015, and it's now 19% in 2023.
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Speaker0: So those are scary statistics. Some of that is obviously the pandemic,
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Speaker0: but they're also, people are saying that even Even post-pandemic,
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Speaker0: their loneliness is increasing among church leaders and pastors.
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Speaker0: What do you guys think explains that? Part of it is, as a pastor,
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Speaker0: you are limited in what kind of friends that you can have sometimes,
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Speaker0: because some pastors where, to even the connection with other pastors, you
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Speaker0: They don't have those relationships. They're very busy with their family or their church.
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Speaker0: And it's difficult, it's complicated to have relationships, like close relationships,
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Speaker0: with people within the church. So I think that's a big part of it.
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Speaker0: So they feel disconnected, they feel lonely, because they, without not being
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Speaker0: in their immediate circle, the people around them, And those natural people
5:44
Speaker0: that you would connect with at like a workplace, it makes it more difficult.
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Speaker0: I just think it's a really important topic. I think some of it is expectations.
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Speaker0: We all kind of start thinking that we are going to like build community in a
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Speaker0: church and big ideas about connecting. And I use the word family a lot. Yeah.
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Speaker0: The truth is, probably organizationally, the pastor cares about the church a
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Speaker0: lot more than most of the people that attend the church.
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Speaker0: And so you say, man, I'm going to pour my whole life into this.
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Speaker0: And for a large number of people, it's just where they go to church,
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Speaker0: which is no small thing. It's a really important thing.
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Speaker0: But as far as like lasting and deep friendships, we don't have a lot of the
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Speaker0: same avenues that other people have.
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Speaker0: Dr. Chris, you just mentioned like work friends. Like, that's not really a thing.
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Speaker0: I think that's a big part of it, too, is that there's a lot of us that are just alone in our offices.
6:40
Speaker0: There's not a lot of staff around. There's not a lot of support staff.
6:44
Speaker0: There's not a lot of peers at work. Everybody around here either volunteers for you or works for you.
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Speaker0: And so to have peers, it's pretty uncommon. And you add that with like, we're so transitory.
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Speaker0: Like, I just think maybe 50 or 100 years ago, you got to shepherd the same people
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Speaker0: and build relationships over generations.
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Speaker0: Like you did weddings and dedicated babies and then did funerals for grandma
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Speaker0: and grandpa. And you really were part of the family where, you know,
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Speaker0: I think for most of us, even with good, healthy churches, people come and go.
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Speaker0: And like, there's no faking deep friendship. It takes years to nurture.
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Speaker0: And, you know, many of us have moved from our hometowns to take church.
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Speaker0: Oh, I'll follow Jesus anywhere. And that's awesome. And you should.
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Speaker0: But when you follow Jesus anywhere, your high school friends aren't going to be there.
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Speaker0: And so I do think a big part of it is we want to be people who make healthy
7:39
Speaker0: places where people can make friends.
7:41
Speaker0: But I don't read a lot of chapters in marriage books about friendship.
7:45
Speaker0: I don't read a lot of chapters in ministry helps about friendship.
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Speaker0: And the whole thing really has to revolve around, like, do you have some pals?
7:54
Speaker0: You know, I don't even know if we think about elder boards, deacon boards as,
7:58
Speaker0: man, these should be friend groups, too.
8:00
Speaker0: You should be connecting at a heart level. And I've said it a lot.
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Speaker0: Like, it's the one thing that I knew ministry life would be hard.
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Speaker0: I didn't know that loneliness was going
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Speaker0: to be part of it and it absolutely has
8:17
Speaker0: been so I don't know that as you know I'm in my 50s now
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Speaker0: but I don't know as a mid-20s guy answering a call to ministry I knew it was
8:24
Speaker0: going to be answering a call to have some lonely time it would seem like a profession
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Speaker0: that on the surface you deal with people just all the time but you're right
8:35
Speaker0: it's like water water everywhere,
8:38
Speaker0: not a drop to drink, being out in the middle of the ocean. None of that water is freshwater.
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Speaker0: So Dr. Stewart, you work as the director of the Great Commission Association.
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Speaker0: You work with dozens, if not hundreds of pastors.
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Speaker0: Are you hearing this kind of thing from them? Do they talk to you about loneliness?
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Speaker0: My sense of pastors is they clam up about those kinds of issues.
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Speaker0: But what about you? Do you hear about this from time to time?
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Speaker0: No, I don't think this is, This is not part of most men's makeup to complain
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Speaker0: about the things that they don't have.
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Speaker0: They're going to hero up and bear the cross. And, you know, this is part of the price.
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Speaker0: What struck me, Chase, from the statistics, and I think some of the things that
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Speaker0: have been shared are always been systemically a part of pastoring a group of
9:27
Speaker0: people because you love them and you need to lead them.
9:30
Speaker0: But being vulnerable in front of them, knowing, thinking that you can trust them with the real you.
9:37
Speaker0: That's a risky proposition with a group of people.
9:40
Speaker0: And what struck me with what you shared was that even with all those things
9:44
Speaker0: being familiar with ministry like that, there's this huge decline going on.
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Speaker0: So what's happening in our society? What are we replacing friendship with from
9:53
Speaker0: the time that you quoted was 2015 till now?
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Speaker0: What has dramatically changed in our world that we are substituting friendship for?
10:01
Speaker0: And I'm going to guess that's got to be, we don't call somebody and say,
10:06
Speaker0: hey, let's go out to dinner because we were going to watch social media or we
10:10
Speaker0: just don't want to mess with people or friendship takes time.
10:14
Speaker0: Something that most pastors on Friday night, they're still thinking,
10:17
Speaker0: you know, we're consumed Sunday is coming.
10:20
Speaker0: So I think it's, I think it's something that God has to start putting inside of us and older pastors.
10:26
Speaker0: And it can really be influential to younger pastors.
10:29
Speaker0: Hey, reach out and be a friend. I was at a retreat with some pastors a few weeks
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Speaker0: ago and we were in a prayer.
10:34
Speaker0: They got us up in prayer circles and they're from all over the country.
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Speaker0: And they just said, look, and it wasn't part of the program.
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Speaker0: Look, you need friends. They said this.
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Speaker0: Successful pastor, you need friends. If there's someone around the table that
10:47
Speaker0: you felt like talked your language, get their phone number.
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Speaker0: And when you leave, write it down and call them in a couple of weeks and tell
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Speaker0: them, I'm praying for you.
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Speaker0: What's up? And no one took my number, which I was very sad about,
11:01
Speaker0: but I took somebody else's number and I'm going to reach out next week.
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Speaker0: But it's intentionality.
11:06
Speaker0: And I think also we got to be careful because we tell ourselves,
11:11
Speaker0: pastors are very, very giving, serving people.
11:14
Speaker0: As we tell ourselves, that would be me taking. If I reached out and I need a
11:18
Speaker0: friend, that's for me. And I need to be the friend.
11:23
Speaker0: That's more of giving. And that might not be what you need right now.
11:27
Speaker0: You might need some just relaxing with someone who enjoys doing what you do,
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Speaker0: which is good, wholesome things that you can rejoice with and you like and you like to do together.
11:36
Speaker0: But there's something happening in the society. And I think I read this trend among all men
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Speaker0: All men are more lonely than they've ever been. You know, I think when we talk
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Speaker0: about friendships, you know, we need genuine friendships.
11:50
Speaker0: We need authentic friendship, not just transactional or to get something.
11:54
Speaker0: And I think in ministry, many times our relationships can become transactional.
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Speaker0: They are, okay, I'm going to be nice to this person so that I can get something
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Speaker0: in return. And maybe we don't say that.
12:09
Speaker0: We probably shouldn't say that, right? But back in our mind.
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Speaker0: I've never said that to you, Chris.
12:14
Speaker0: That's good. That's good. I've never said it out loud, but I apologize right now.
12:19
Speaker0: And I think what rolls into this as well is our individualistic culture.
12:24
Speaker0: You know, as in the United States, we are very individualistic.
12:28
Speaker0: Other cultures, they're more community-oriented. So I think we just have to
12:33
Speaker0: be self-aware of these things.
12:35
Speaker0: And as a pastor, it's even more that we need this more.
12:38
Speaker0: And we can't just go by, we can't just coast through life in a way that,
12:44
Speaker0: oh, I don't need friendship. I don't need a community, true community,
12:48
Speaker0: truly loving other people in a way that's in a peer.
12:53
Speaker0: Not that I'm pastoring them, but that we're in this ministry together.
12:58
Speaker0: We're in partnership in ministry together. And we have true friends.
13:02
Speaker0: I'm part of a group of pastors.
13:03
Speaker0: It's a local group. They embody this very well. We get together once a month
13:08
Speaker0: for lunch, and there's not a big agenda.
13:11
Speaker0: I pray together, get together, talk to each other. But part of that,
13:15
Speaker0: I've seen that there's just been an openness.
13:18
Speaker0: A lot of them have been together for many, many years. I've only been part of
13:22
Speaker0: the group for about eight years, but many of them is like 20 plus years.
13:26
Speaker0: And there is a genuine, an authenticness to the time together,
13:31
Speaker0: which is what you have to get to as a pastor.
13:34
Speaker0: And we have to be intentional about it. It just doesn't happen.
13:37
Speaker0: Let's talk about that intentionality, because I will just say something reasonably transparent.
13:43
Speaker0: I came from Alabama, 2018, where I had a very deep circle of friends.
13:49
Speaker0: Somewhere in the early days of 2018, 2019, I met Pastor Grant at some sort of eating thing.
13:58
Speaker0: And I knew immediately that he was my kind of guy, that I could hang out with
14:02
Speaker0: this guy and be friends with him. But our connection points since then,
14:08
Speaker0: what has that been, almost eight years ago, we actually haven't seen each other very much.
14:13
Speaker0: And that tells me we did have coffee three or four weeks ago. It was fantastic.
14:17
Speaker0: Confirmed what I sort of innately knew. This is a guy that I really could be
14:21
Speaker0: friends with. But there's a combination of factors, I think,
14:26
Speaker0: that sort of work together to keep pastors.
14:29
Speaker0: There's probably other professions like this, but to keep pastors sort of isolated like that.
14:36
Speaker0: So how can we build intentionality in our lives as pastors?
14:42
Speaker0: And for you guys, Dr. Stewart and Dr. Smith, you guys sort of more,
14:46
Speaker0: your work right now is more with pastors as opposed to pastoring.
14:49
Speaker0: So how can you guys and how can the Great Commission Association and how can
14:54
Speaker0: other associations facilitate those kind of relationships?
14:59
Speaker0: Always, you can elevate the issue. That's one of the things an association can do.
15:04
Speaker0: It can bring things forward for pastors to contemplate and pray about themselves.
15:09
Speaker0: As you were talking, Chase, I'm thinking, you know, is that a part of my prayer
15:13
Speaker0: life before God? God, let me find a Jonathan.
15:17
Speaker0: Let me find a David. let me find a relationship. Send someone to me that's important
15:23
Speaker0: to you and important to me in my life. If we're not.
15:26
Speaker0: And I'm not praying that way, perhaps, because I don't see that my greatest need.
15:31
Speaker0: I have other things that are my greatest need that I think is my greatest need.
15:34
Speaker0: So I would say we can elevate, but also it's through the ministry we do through
15:39
Speaker0: the care ambassadors and other things. We try to create opportunities.
15:43
Speaker0: You can't make people be friends.
15:45
Speaker0: That's right. You can get them around where they can be friendly.
15:48
Speaker0: But you also have to teach, teach as, hey, is there somebody in this circle
15:53
Speaker0: or a circle close to you that you get to be the real you?
15:55
Speaker0: When you're ticked off about A, B, C, or D, you can pick up the phone and say,
16:00
Speaker0: I just got to tell somebody that and find out if I'm crazy.
16:04
Speaker0: And they can hear you say stuff that doesn't have a Bible verse every three lines.
16:09
Speaker0: And I can't say that's a high priority, been a high priority for us.
16:13
Speaker0: We're always talking about the church and the function.
16:16
Speaker0: We're not really talking about the heart need of the pastor many times.
16:20
Speaker0: You know, when you say be the real you, I think that that is just something
16:25
Speaker0: we have to just acknowledge.
16:26
Speaker0: I mean, we've all kind of been burned going, oh, I think this is a real friend
16:30
Speaker0: and I'm going to open up. And then you find out that for whatever reason they
16:35
Speaker0: move, there's some brokenness, you drift apart, whatever it is.
16:39
Speaker0: And so I think they taped you for a podcast session that they played for everybody. Exactly.
16:44
Speaker0: Thought it was just coffee, Chase.
16:47
Speaker0: Content's king. What are we going to do? But to have the idea that like,
16:50
Speaker0: don't give up, you know, it does take time.
16:53
Speaker0: And also like, this is not an all or nothing proposition.
16:57
Speaker0: I always counsel, especially young men, but there's the number of people that
17:02
Speaker0: really know your heart. It shouldn't be zero, but it shouldn't be a hundred
17:06
Speaker0: either. Like, guard your heart.
17:09
Speaker0: It's okay to say, not everybody in my life, I need to work on being vulnerable,
17:13
Speaker0: so I'm going to spill my guts at every prayer meeting.
17:16
Speaker0: No, that's not right either, especially like if you're the people shepherd,
17:20
Speaker0: you shouldn't burden them with every drop of, you know, sorrow in your heart at the same time.
17:28
Speaker0: It shouldn't be nobody that knows the real you. And, you know,
17:30
Speaker0: we'll probably talk about this relationship in other topics today,
17:34
Speaker0: but it's got to start with your wife.
17:37
Speaker0: You know, God gave you, Tiffany and I talk a lot about like,
17:41
Speaker0: people are going to come and go in our lives, but God gave us each other for a lifetime.
17:45
Speaker0: And so you have to have male friendship, but to have that idea that God gave me a best friend.
17:51
Speaker0: And if I'm not pouring into that relationship, I'm not going to replace that
17:56
Speaker0: with dudes in the circle once a month.
17:59
Speaker0: And so it's great to have, you know, you need different levels of friendship.
18:03
Speaker0: There has to be that most intimate partner in your wife.
18:06
Speaker0: And then it's great to seek out. And it's not sinful to make the person that
18:11
Speaker0: you share the most with somebody that doesn't go to your church.
18:14
Speaker0: In fact, it might be some wisdom to that.
18:17
Speaker0: And then to say, you know, to have a bullpen of four or five guys that you just
18:23
Speaker0: that are life-giving to be around. and then to have the masses that you're friendly
18:28
Speaker0: with and that you're, you know, stable with is great.
18:31
Speaker0: But I think to say it's okay that that
18:35
Speaker0: Aside from your wife, that that best friend kind of person comes and goes.
18:39
Speaker0: My best friend died when we were 37.
18:42
Speaker0: And there's no replacing Chad Sluder in my life. It's not going to happen.
18:46
Speaker0: But that doesn't mean God has abandoned you.
18:49
Speaker0: There's going to be other people who God brings into your life.
18:52
Speaker0: And so to just not give up and not be foolish with your heart,
18:56
Speaker0: not be reckless with your heart, but also not be jaded and too self-centered
18:59
Speaker0: about it and say, yeah, God will bring people into your life.
19:02
Speaker0: Go ahead and build those friendships.
19:05
Speaker0: That's a good word, to be wise, to be wise in those relationships,
19:08
Speaker0: because when you're preaching on Sunday, it's not a therapy session.
19:12
Speaker0: And so you give illustrations in a way that is wise and good.
19:17
Speaker0: And I think that we, you know, how do you, Chase, you ask, how do we facilitate
19:21
Speaker0: these types of relationships?
19:23
Speaker0: One, we need to be modeling these types of relationships. We need to be having
19:27
Speaker0: these vulnerable, authentic, real relationships. And I think we,
19:33
Speaker0: in our role, we can do a lot of connecting.
19:35
Speaker0: I remember one pastor I was talking to and he was struggling,
19:39
Speaker0: and so we all knew he was struggling.
19:41
Speaker0: So I called another pastor and I said, could you check on him?
19:46
Speaker0: Could you call him? Could you include him in this specifically?
19:49
Speaker0: Can you do this, these specific things? And he did and things improved and just
19:54
Speaker0: that friendship, but it did take an intentionality and for us to see it.
19:59
Speaker0: So in our role, we need to be able to see what's happening and just really be
20:05
Speaker0: sensitive to how the Spirit is moving within a person, a pastor,
20:09
Speaker0: or a church and respond accordingly.
20:12
Speaker0: Hey, can I ask you guys something? How important is fun in all this?
20:15
Speaker0: Because I'll tell you what, like fun is the pathway to intimacy for me,
20:20
Speaker0: not the other way around. Like, hey, let's get together in somebody's office
20:24
Speaker0: surrounded by a bunch of books and share our heart is just so much harder for
20:28
Speaker0: me than playing around a disc golf.
20:30
Speaker0: And you know what I'm talking about? Like, I do think that that's a part of
20:34
Speaker0: this conversation is that we need to not be afraid to.
20:37
Speaker0: Have some fun with others. I was just about ready to invite you to a deep session
20:41
Speaker0: at my office, but for friendship, but I'm getting a sense of my...
20:47
Speaker0: It's time to be friends right now.
20:49
Speaker0: Now we've got it scheduled for the next half hour. You will be my friend.
20:54
Speaker0: That's right. Well, men like projects. They like things to do and hanging out
20:59
Speaker0: and getting stuff done. That's what they like.
21:01
Speaker0: And, you know, I agree with you, Grant. We,
21:05
Speaker0: It can get serious when it needs to get serious, but there's got to be some
21:08
Speaker0: relationship building that's enjoyable.
21:11
Speaker0: Before that, I'm not going to share anything deep with you if I have never spent
21:14
Speaker0: time with you. And that time is going to be, what? I'm already in books a lot.
21:19
Speaker0: I'm already in, you know, maybe that's the thing, the idea for pastors and more people.
21:24
Speaker0: A friend is somebody else I have to get into my life. So we need to relax more.
21:30
Speaker0: We need to dedicate some Sabbath time to us having a little enjoyment.
21:34
Speaker0: I think that would help all the tension to come off because we,
21:38
Speaker0: we have a lot of things that we're responsible for and sometimes they don't go great.
21:41
Speaker0: And just getting with somebody and having some fun, man, that would be,
21:44
Speaker0: that's, that's a blessing, but it's got to be a rhythm, a rhythm of our life.
21:49
Speaker0: Yeah, I think most of the deepest, best conversations, like heart-to-heart kind
21:54
Speaker0: of conversations I've had with other men haven't been planned.
21:58
Speaker0: They've been in the middle of something else. And when you talk about connecting,
22:02
Speaker0: Chris, and that there's no formula to it other than spend enough time that the
22:09
Speaker0: conversation comes up, prove yourself trustworthy in small things,
22:13
Speaker0: and people will learn to trust you in big things.
22:15
Speaker0: Good to have a mix of one-on-one, a mix of a small, smaller situation.
22:21
Speaker0: Three or four, and then the bigger group where it could be like 15 to 20.
22:27
Speaker0: I think that that helps because one, you might not have as many of these type
22:33
Speaker0: of conversations, but at least you're getting to know other people where in
22:37
Speaker0: the future you could have those type of conversations.
22:40
Speaker0: And not everybody's going to be like what Dr. Mike said, not everybody's going to be friends.
22:45
Speaker0: We can't make them be friends. But if we can cultivate that environment of community,
22:50
Speaker0: real community, true community, then I believe that it can happen and it does happen.
22:55
Speaker0: Pastor Grant, you talked about
22:57
Speaker0: kind of the issue of fun. On a recent episode of the show, we had Dr.
23:03
Speaker0: C.J. Wan, who is the Director of Mission Operations for the GCA,
23:07
Speaker0: and we asked him not too serious question, what kind of people would you want to go on a cruise with?
23:13
Speaker0: A group of pastors, a group of denominational leaders, a group of worship leaders.
23:18
Speaker0: And both he and I, in discussing that question, were pretty adamant that we
23:24
Speaker0: probably would not want to go on a cruise with a bunch of pastors.
23:28
Speaker0: And of course, I am a pastor and he's been a pastor. My sense of most pastors
23:32
Speaker0: as a person who did not grow up wanting to be a pastor, I went to church,
23:36
Speaker0: I didn't dislike pastors,
23:37
Speaker0: but I thought they were kind of stuffy and serious and in a sense, not real people.
23:43
Speaker0: And so I completely resonate with you when you say, hey, you know,
23:47
Speaker0: I want to connect with somebody on a said fun.
23:50
Speaker0: And Dr. Stewart mentioned projects. And that is, it's interesting.
23:54
Speaker0: Some guys like to have fun together. Some guys like to do projects together.
23:57
Speaker0: Most guys don't like to be stuffy together. And I think there's a pressure on
24:02
Speaker0: pastors sometimes to act as if they are more.
24:06
Speaker0: Elevated and holy and godly than they actually are, which kind of brings me to my next question.
24:13
Speaker0: When I was first starting out in ministry, it was fairly common advice for pastors
24:19
Speaker0: to either, A, avoid being friends.
24:24
Speaker0: Like real friends, with people in your congregation, or B, be extremely careful about it.
24:30
Speaker0: And right now at the moment, Dr. Stewart, you are the interim pastor at First Baptist Gilroy.
24:35
Speaker0: Pastor Grant, you are pastoring in Seaside. I am pastoring. So beginning with
24:39
Speaker0: one of you two guys, what do you think about that advice?
24:43
Speaker0: And do you think pastors should follow it?
24:46
Speaker0: I'll go to the guy who's doing it 24-7 first, Grant.
24:50
Speaker0: Yeah, I think it just takes wisdom. I think that there's wisdom there.
24:56
Speaker0: Like a lot of great wisdom, there's tension in the question.
24:59
Speaker0: I think that it's wisdom to say, hey, anything you say over game night can and
25:05
Speaker0: will be held against you in the quad on Sunday morning.
25:08
Speaker0: I think you have to know that, that there's a position that you said yes to,
25:13
Speaker0: to be an under-shepherd under Christ,
25:15
Speaker0: that these people are going to call you on the worst day of their year,
25:19
Speaker0: and they need to know that you have the kind of character and can be serious
25:25
Speaker0: and trustworthy, so they're comfortable calling you. You are their pastor.
25:29
Speaker0: There's never a moment where you're not their pastor.
25:31
Speaker0: That means social media. That means every conversation.
25:35
Speaker0: You are always their pastor, and you need to act like it. At the same time,
25:39
Speaker0: I think the other side of that same coin is, look, if you're not vulnerable,
25:44
Speaker0: if you keep people at arm's length, the number one thing people need to know is that you love them.
25:49
Speaker0: And you know what I always pray and is, God, give me not just an agape love
25:54
Speaker0: for this congregation, but I want to like them.
25:56
Speaker0: Like, I want to be excited when they walk in the room. And you can't really
25:59
Speaker0: do that as the expert sage on the stage kind of guy.
26:04
Speaker0: I don't show up for a congregation. I show up for these people.
26:08
Speaker0: And so, you know, I think when Paul said, man, I've been poured out like a drink offering.
26:15
Speaker0: I think there was a lot of different kinds of hurt in that being poured out.
26:20
Speaker0: Oh, that's not just he got old.
26:21
Speaker0: He's saying, look, my back bears the marks of ministry and I've been abandoned by people.
26:27
Speaker0: I mean, so much of his advice to Timothy is, man, you're in a really hard spot.
26:32
Speaker0: Just don't leave. Just stay there and keep preaching, dude.
26:36
Speaker0: And so to have that, yeah, be wise and guard your heart and at the same time
26:41
Speaker0: have enough vulnerability that because I'll tell you the other thing is if you
26:46
Speaker0: spend 10 years like I think that's the fastest way to a fall.
26:50
Speaker0: Is to just hide who you really are from your congregation. You have to be wise.
26:55
Speaker0: Don't burden them with your struggles and sorrows when it's unnecessary.
26:59
Speaker0: But, you know, I think maybe 50 years ago, maybe other places in the country,
27:06
Speaker0: pastors were on pedestals.
27:07
Speaker0: I don't think I'm on a pedestal. I just don't think that's the way people view
27:11
Speaker0: their pastor anymore. But they sure do need to know that you're trustworthy.
27:15
Speaker0: And so to be vulnerable enough where they know the real you And it's also a reminder...
27:23
Speaker0: The real you needs to be a godly person. They need to know the real you and
27:27
Speaker0: you be somebody that genuinely loves the Lord and has seen victory over sin
27:31
Speaker0: and is somebody that they would be happy to be their pastor.
27:35
Speaker0: I think if the problem with vulnerability is that you don't want people to know
27:39
Speaker0: that you don't really follow the Lord that closely, then selling insurance is a great occupation.
27:44
Speaker0: Go ahead and do it. So I don't know if that was rambly or answered the question,
27:48
Speaker0: But I think there has to be wisdom.
27:51
Speaker0: I think you can't be completely guarded, and I don't think you can be reckless
27:54
Speaker0: with your heart. But somewhere there's wisdom in there somewhere.
27:57
Speaker0: That's great. I told our leaders this week, we had a leadership meeting last
28:01
Speaker0: week, and I gave a bit of a State of the Union address to them.
28:04
Speaker0: And one of the things I said is if the people in the church see us get derailed
28:10
Speaker0: by small things, they will themselves get derailed by even smaller things.
28:17
Speaker0: Because they'll say, hey, if it took this leader out, this deacon out or whatever,
28:21
Speaker0: it certainly will take me out.
28:22
Speaker0: Well, Dr. Stewart, you have been interim pastor several times.
28:26
Speaker0: And before that, you've been involved in church ministry in every facet.
28:30
Speaker0: What's your take on the whole question?
28:32
Speaker0: Can pastors be friends, real friends with people in the congregation?
28:37
Speaker0: I would say you can be to make that decision that you're going to move forward
28:42
Speaker0: towards a deep friendship with somebody who is a member of your church,
28:46
Speaker0: needs to be one that is prayed through because they have to be able to handle
28:51
Speaker0: it. It is what Grant was saying.
28:53
Speaker0: They're going to be your friend, but you're still their pastor.
28:55
Speaker0: And so then, you know, we know this when deep trauma happens to a church family
29:00
Speaker0: and they tell their pastor all about it and it's some, maybe it's a shame issue or guilt issue.
29:06
Speaker0: They have a hard time showing back up in church eventually because when you're
29:09
Speaker0: preaching and you're teaching about subjects that may touch on the fabric of
29:13
Speaker0: their issue, they can't discern whether you mean them or that you mean the sin.
29:18
Speaker0: I'm gonna say there's a difference between us loving our people deeply and becoming
29:22
Speaker0: best friends with them. And I think what they want.
29:25
Speaker0: They want you to love them deeply. I will say this as a director of missions.
29:30
Speaker0: I have pastors, I mean, it's part of my ministry position, when they're discouraged
29:35
Speaker0: and thinking about ending their ministry with the congregation.
29:40
Speaker0: Many times I will get a call and they want to talk about it.
29:43
Speaker0: Kind of like when a pastor gets marriage counseling, someone calls,
29:45
Speaker0: we want marriage counseling.
29:47
Speaker0: The chances of you coming in in time are minimal. I have a stock question for
29:53
Speaker0: them, and this might, this is just me.
29:56
Speaker0: I will listen to everything they want to say because they've come to talk,
29:59
Speaker0: and they unburdened about, and they're hurt.
30:01
Speaker0: And things have happened that in all legitimacy, they should be hurt.
30:05
Speaker0: Things have gone down, things have happened. And they will get through,
30:09
Speaker0: and I let them finish, and I will tell them, that's a lot.
30:13
Speaker0: You're dealing with a lot. My question for you, brother, is do you still love them?
30:17
Speaker0: Do you still love them, or are you, do you don't even like them anymore?
30:21
Speaker0: Because if you still love them, there's a path for you here.
30:24
Speaker0: And you are the one that's in charge of what happens next in this church as
30:28
Speaker0: far as regards to the office of pastor.
30:30
Speaker0: Because all these things you've talked about, God is dealing and working in the midst of that.
30:36
Speaker0: Sometimes staying when you're hurt is an incredible testimony to the church
30:40
Speaker0: that they stay through things.
30:42
Speaker0: They stay in their marriage when they're hurt. They stay with their kids when they're hurt.
30:45
Speaker0: And they see, they're always watching. The church family is always,
30:49
Speaker0: and you know, they know more about who's hurting you and what's hurting you than you think.
30:53
Speaker0: Because people talk outside your presence and they watch you,
30:57
Speaker0: how you engage with the person they know who is gossiping about you the most.
31:02
Speaker0: They watch you and they see whether the grace comes out or the opposite of that.
31:08
Speaker0: And only through Christ can we be given glory about how we recognize this person
31:15
Speaker0: in front of me, they're hurting.
31:16
Speaker0: The person who's gossiping is like, there's something broken,
31:19
Speaker0: but I don't have to be broken?
31:21
Speaker0: And I don't have to hurt them. If I do have a close friend in the church,
31:24
Speaker0: I would certainly also have a close friend even outside the church,
31:28
Speaker0: but maybe outside of my circle of Southern Baptist leaders.
31:32
Speaker0: I would have someone who wasn't in our power circle or whatever.
31:36
Speaker0: Those are healthy pastors, and they won't spend time talking to you about denominational
31:40
Speaker0: politics, which doesn't get anybody anywhere.
31:44
Speaker0: How am I going to pastor my church better? Well, let's first talk about the denominational. Why?
31:49
Speaker0: We have a meeting every year. We get to go do that. So I would just say that,
31:53
Speaker0: you know, be wise about it. You can.
31:55
Speaker0: I was counseled that way. And our wives are the ones who actually build deeper
32:00
Speaker0: relationships and they have to have wisdom too.
32:03
Speaker0: We don't normally tell them that, but I just think women have a much more,
32:07
Speaker0: my God, an affinity to draw into close relationships. They do it easier and faster, most of them.
32:12
Speaker0: But even then, they're your wife. They're the pastor's wife and they'll get
32:17
Speaker0: hurt, deeply hurt if they're betrayed. And so we have to help them and how we
32:22
Speaker0: navigate that because it's fuzzy.
32:24
Speaker0: When you get up to that line of love and friendship, now I'm going to cross
32:27
Speaker0: over into deep friendship.
32:29
Speaker0: That's a fuzzy line. And once you cross over it, and that comes with,
32:32
Speaker0: I think, with a sharing that this happened in my marriage or this happened with my kids.
32:38
Speaker0: Something personal is shared and then you've crossed over.
32:42
Speaker0: And you got to wait for the other person to respond back. Well,
32:45
Speaker0: that's great, Mike. What about the weather?
32:47
Speaker0: Yeah, well, it's really hot today. All right. Oops. So I would say just be wise,
32:51
Speaker0: but if you have one that's inside the church, be careful with them.
32:55
Speaker0: They still need you to be your pastor. I would say this to close.
32:59
Speaker0: I've had a great, great life among God's people, but I think they really want
33:04
Speaker0: to be proud of you, proud of their pastor.
33:06
Speaker0: They want to say, that's my pastor. Not that's Jesus.
33:10
Speaker0: No, that's my pastor, and I'm proud of him. And they will do that.
33:13
Speaker0: If they see us walking among them, even when we have the stripes on our back
33:18
Speaker0: and we've been wounded, but we still go up and we're filled up with God's care,
33:22
Speaker0: God's joy for our people, and we still love them.
33:24
Speaker0: So that's my take. That is an excellent and weighty observation.
33:29
Speaker0: Okay. I think that's a good place to end part one of the round table interview for now.
33:36
Speaker0: Never fear there's at least that much more coming up next week with the same
33:41
Speaker0: panel and we'll go even deeper in our discussion of relationships in the church.
33:47
Speaker0: For now, let's transition to a soda review of an excellent beverage that Dr.
33:53
Speaker0: Stewart and I happen to agree on. One of the special things,
33:57
Speaker0: I think it's special, unique things we do on the Every Church Flourishing podcast
34:01
Speaker0: is we get a rare, unique, strange,
34:06
Speaker0: sometimes foreign, sometimes domestic soda from our showrunner, Ms.
34:10
Speaker0: Grace, and we review it on the show. And today we have a soda I've never heard of before.
34:17
Speaker0: This is a German soda called Spezzi, and it is a cola and juicy orange soda,
34:24
Speaker0: which is very popular over there.
34:27
Speaker0: Dr. Stewart, have you ever had a soda that's a combination of cola and orange?
34:32
Speaker0: No, I don't believe I have. Nor have I.
34:34
Speaker0: It's a very unique kind of deal. I grew up on Orange Crush and sodas like that
34:40
Speaker0: with an orange flavor, but I've never had a combo orange and cola.
34:45
Speaker0: And when I read the title, Spezzi, I sort of think of the Speznos,
34:49
Speaker0: the Russian Special Forces or the Stasi, which is not such a good thing to think of.
34:54
Speaker0: But what it means, this is a word, and you see it there at the top.
34:58
Speaker0: It says, friend for life.
35:00
Speaker0: Spezzi is the Bavarian word for buddy. So I guess this is a drink that friends
35:05
Speaker0: and buddies should drink.
35:07
Speaker0: So we're going to drink it as friends and buddies and then tell you what we
35:10
Speaker0: think about it. You ready?
35:11
Speaker0: All right. Not bad. What do you think, Dr. Stewart?
35:14
Speaker0: Yeah, not bad. It says Cola and Juicy Orange.
35:18
Speaker0: Juicy Orange. I'm glad they, you know, it was a juicy orange that they used.
35:22
Speaker0: But yeah, let me try it again. I definitely get the citrusy flavor there.
35:26
Speaker0: Yeah, it is not bad. It's got a five-star German quality, it says.
35:30
Speaker0: On the bottom, five-star German quality. So you drink this while you're driving
35:34
Speaker0: your Mercedes down the Autobahn with your Spetznat, you know,
35:38
Speaker0: sniper rifle in the back. Friend for life.
35:41
Speaker0: Vasily is pretty good. Pretty good soda. Not bad. Reminds me of something else
35:45
Speaker0: that they have in Europe.
35:48
Speaker0: What's that? I can't remember the name of it, but it's, oh, I've seen them.
35:52
Speaker0: But anyway, I would say that's a, I would give that a four and a half.
35:57
Speaker0: I think I would agree. Four and a half. I could drink this. I could drink this
36:01
Speaker0: a lot. It's, it's, it's tastes a little like somebody poured some juice in my
36:06
Speaker0: Coke, but I think it tastes better than that. It's, it's, it's good. It's smooth.
36:11
Speaker0: It's tasty. It's actually, I would say if I could give it one word,
36:14
Speaker0: I would say refreshing. This is a refreshing beverage.
36:17
Speaker0: Yeah. Now I'm not drinking. I think this over a glass of ice,
36:21
Speaker0: nicely chilled would be really refreshing.
36:25
Speaker0: Of course, this is a, you know, this is not a American sized bottle.
36:29
Speaker0: This is probably, so this is a zero. Eight ounces? 0.25. Yeah. Okay.
36:38
Speaker0: Yeah. It's a quarter of a liter, I guess. I don't know. But well,
36:41
Speaker0: thank you, Grace, for picking one that was very delightful.
36:45
Speaker0: So if you ever see Spetsy, or you can just say that to your pastor friends. Hey, Spetsy.
36:50
Speaker0: That's right. Buddy, we have not only, we've not only refreshed,
36:54
Speaker0: we've educated on this episode, Chase, so. That's important.
36:57
Speaker0: That's important. And I'm going to agree with you. A rare concurrence and confluence.
37:02
Speaker0: I'm going to say my Spezzi, also worth 4 out of 5, 4.5 out of 5 Spurgeons.
37:08
Speaker0: This is, this is tasty. It's got full sugar. It's probably got a lot of calories,
37:12
Speaker0: but I would drink this every day and be a happy camper.
37:15
Speaker0: Okay, now that we are refreshed, we want to close out with some great quotes
37:21
Speaker0: that you can use in your Resurrection Sunday sermon this upcoming week or Sunday
37:29
Speaker0: school or post on your blog or whatever.
37:31
Speaker0: I've picked out 10 great quotes from various church leaders on the resurrection
37:37
Speaker0: of Jesus, and most of these are not super well-known.
37:42
Speaker0: I wouldn't say they're exactly obscure or anything like that,
37:46
Speaker0: but these are not the normal ones you read.
37:48
Speaker0: So we'll start out with John Piper from God is the Gospel, who says in the number
37:53
Speaker0: one slot, the best news of the Christian gospel is that the supremely glorious
37:58
Speaker0: creator of the universe.
38:00
Speaker0: Has acted in Jesus Christ's death and resurrection to remove every obstacle
38:06
Speaker0: between us and himself so that we may find everlasting joy in seeing the
38:13
Speaker0: and savoring his infinite beauty. Number two from C.S. Lewis in the book Miracles.
38:21
Speaker0: In the earliest days of Christianity, an apostle was first and foremost a man
38:26
Speaker0: who claimed to be an eyewitness of the resurrection.
38:29
Speaker0: As this qualification suggests, to preach Christianity meant primarily to preach the resurrection.
38:37
Speaker0: The resurrection is the central theme in every Christian sermon reported in the book of Acts.
38:44
Speaker0: The resurrection and its consequences were the gospel or good news which the Christians brought.
38:51
Speaker0: Number three, Tim Keller from his excellent apologetics book, The Reason for God.
38:57
Speaker0: If Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to accept all that he said.
39:02
Speaker0: If he didn't rise from the dead, then why worry about any of what he said?
39:06
Speaker0: The issue on which everything hangs is not whether or not you like his teaching,
39:11
Speaker0: but whether or not he rose from the dead.
39:14
Speaker0: Number four, my guy, Charles Spurgeon.
39:18
Speaker0: Christianity stands or falls with the resurrection of its founder.
39:22
Speaker0: No man can be a Christian and doubt the resurrection of the Lord.
39:27
Speaker0: If that had not happened...
39:29
Speaker0: The whole matter would have been proved an imposture.
39:34
Speaker0: Number five, H.B. Charles from his sermon, Case Closed.
39:39
Speaker0: Ephesians 1, 20-21 says, God raised Jesus from the dead and seated him at his
39:45
Speaker0: right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power
39:49
Speaker0: and dominion and above every name that is named,
39:53
Speaker0: not only in this age, but also in the one to come.
39:55
Speaker0: The one who died on the cross and rose from the dead is now seated at the right hand of God.
40:02
Speaker0: Psalm 110 verse 1 reads, The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until
40:08
Speaker0: I make your enemies your footstool.
40:11
Speaker0: The Christ of the empty tomb is the Christ of the occupied throne.
40:17
Speaker0: Next, another Spurgeon quote who says, The whole system of Christianity rests
40:23
Speaker0: upon the fact that Christ is risen from the dead.
40:25
Speaker0: For if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also
40:32
Speaker0: vain. Ye are yet in your sins.
40:35
Speaker0: The divinity of Christ finds its surest proof in his resurrection,
40:39
Speaker0: since he was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit
40:43
Speaker0: of holiness by the resurrection from the dead.
40:46
Speaker0: It would not be unreasonable to doubt his deity if he had not risen.
40:51
Speaker0: Our justification, that choice blessing of the covenant,
40:56
Speaker0: is linked with Christ's triumphant victory over death in the grave,
41:01
Speaker0: for he was delivered up for our
41:03
Speaker0: offenses and was raised again for our justification, and most certainly...
41:09
Speaker0: Our ultimate resurrection rests here, for if the Spirit of him that raised up
41:15
Speaker0: Jesus from the dead dwell in you,
41:17
Speaker0: he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies
41:22
Speaker0: by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
41:25
Speaker0: If Christ be not risen, then we shall not rise.
41:28
Speaker0: But if he be risen, then they who are asleep in Christ have not perished,
41:34
Speaker0: but in their flesh shall surely behold their God.
41:37
Speaker0: Thus, the silver thread of resurrection runs through all the believer's blessings
41:43
Speaker0: from his regeneration onwards to his eternal glory and binds them all together.
41:50
Speaker0: Number seven, G.K. Chesterton, who wrote, Jesus's resurrection is the ground
41:55
Speaker0: and basis of all true love, hope, and joy.
42:00
Speaker0: For if Jesus is still in the grave, then all of humanity will remain in the
42:05
Speaker0: grave too. But he is not in the grave, and this makes all the difference.
42:12
Speaker0: Number eight, Chuck Colson, Charles Colson. He says, I know the resurrection
42:17
Speaker0: is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How?
42:20
Speaker0: Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead.
42:26
Speaker0: Then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it.
42:30
Speaker0: Everyone was beaten, tortured, stoned, and put in prison. They would not have
42:34
Speaker0: endured that if it weren't true.
42:37
Speaker0: Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world,
42:41
Speaker0: and they couldn't keep alive for three weeks.
42:44
Speaker0: You're telling me 12 apostles could keep alive for 40 years?
42:49
Speaker0: Absolutely impossible.
42:51
Speaker0: Number nine, Charles Spurgeon again. Now soul, if thou would be saved before
42:57
Speaker0: all things, it is necessary that thou should trust thy soul in the hands of
43:02
Speaker0: God, the faithful creator.
43:04
Speaker0: Beholding ever associated with those hands, the Lord Jesus Christ,
43:09
Speaker0: God and man, who has died and risen again to put away thy sin.
43:13
Speaker0: Such a faith now exercised will save thee at once and will save thee forever and ever.
43:21
Speaker0: That's from Spurgeon's sermon, The Two Pillars of Salvation,
43:26
Speaker0: which he preached in 1894.
43:30
Speaker0: And number 10 from D.A. Carson.
43:33
Speaker0: The entire Bible pivots on one weekend in Jerusalem about 2,000 years ago.
43:39
Speaker0: Attempts to make sense of the Bible that do not give prolonged thought to integrating
43:43
Speaker0: the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus are doomed to failure,
43:48
Speaker0: at best exercises in irrelevance.
43:51
Speaker0: Well, let me give you one more bonus because it was too good not to include.
43:55
Speaker0: This is number 11 from Yaroslav Pelikan, who says, if Christ is not risen, nothing else matters.
44:02
Speaker0: And if Christ is risen, nothing else matters.
44:06
Speaker0: That's one you can ponder on for the rest of the afternoon. As promised at the
44:10
Speaker0: beginning, let's talk a little bit about the question that as a pastor,
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Speaker0: I'm asked all the time, do dogs go to heaven? Will my pet be in heaven?
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Speaker0: Will my kitty cat, my hamster, my dog that died, our dog that died,
44:25
Speaker0: little Cooper, he died a few years ago. He was way too young. It broke our hearts.
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Speaker0: Will such beasts somehow, someway make it into heaven?
44:35
Speaker0: It's a great question. And I've always answered it in part by pointing to the
44:39
Speaker0: fact that many resurrection passages in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament.
44:43
Speaker0: Do indeed mention animals in
44:46
Speaker0: in the resurrection. Does that mean animals will be resurrected?
44:51
Speaker0: Now, obviously, I don't know the answer to that question, but C.S.
44:55
Speaker0: Lewis, in his book, The Problem of Pain, gives a very thoughtful answer to the question.
45:02
Speaker0: And look, let me just be straight with you. It's pretty deep.
45:05
Speaker0: You're probably going to want to listen to this and then come read it,
45:10
Speaker0: and I will have it included in total at our website,
45:13
Speaker0: everychurchflourishing.com, in the episode 10 show notes.
45:18
Speaker0: But this is what Lewis himself says about the question.
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Speaker0: It's deep, like I said, so think. Man was appointed by God to have dominion
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Speaker0: over the beasts, and everything a man does to an animal is either a lawful exercise
45:31
Speaker0: or a sacrilegious abuse of an authority by divine right.
45:35
Speaker0: The tame animal is therefore, in the deepest sense, the only natural animal,
45:40
Speaker0: The only one we see occupying the place it was made to occupy,
45:44
Speaker0: and it is on the tame animal that we must base all our doctrine of beasts.
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Speaker0: Now, it will be seen that insofar as the tame animal has a real self or personality,
45:56
Speaker0: it owes this almost entirely to its master.
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Speaker0: If a good sheepdog seems almost human, that is because a good shepherd has made it so.
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Speaker0: I've already noted, says Lewis, the mysterious force of the word in, I-N.
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Speaker0: I do not take all the senses of it in the New Testament to be identical,
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Speaker0: so that man is in Christ, in Christ in God, in the Holy Spirit in the church,
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Speaker0: and also in the individual believer in exactly the same sense.
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Speaker0: They may be senses that rhyme or correspond rather than a single sense.
46:30
Speaker0: I'm now going to suggest, says Lewis, though with great readiness to be set
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Speaker0: right by real theologians, that there may be a sense corresponding.
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Speaker0: Though not identical with these, in which those beasts that attain a real self are in their masters.
46:48
Speaker0: That is to say, you must not think of a beast by itself and call that a personality
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Speaker0: and then inquire whether God will raise and bless that.
46:56
Speaker0: You must take the whole context in which the beast acquires its selfhood,
47:02
Speaker0: mainly the good man and the good wife ruling their children and their beasts
47:06
Speaker0: in their good homestead.
47:08
Speaker0: That whole context may be regarded as a body in the Pauline or a closely sub-Pauline sense,
47:16
Speaker0: and how much of that body may be raised with the good man and the good wife who can predict.
47:22
Speaker0: So much, presumably, as is necessary, not only for the glory of God and the
47:27
Speaker0: beatitude of the human pair, but for that particular glory and that particular beatitude,
47:33
Speaker0: which is eternally colored by that particular terrestrial experience.
47:38
Speaker0: And in this way, it seems to me possible that certain animals may have an immortality
47:44
Speaker0: Not in themselves, says Lewis, but in the immortality of their masters.
47:51
Speaker0: And the difficulty about personal identity in a creature barely personal disappears
47:56
Speaker0: when the creature is thus kept in its proper context.
48:00
Speaker0: If you ask concerning an animal thus raised as a member of the whole body of
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Speaker0: the homestead, where its personal identity resides.
48:08
Speaker0: I answer, where its identity always did reside, even in the earthly life,
48:14
Speaker0: in its relation to the body, and especially to the master who is the head of that body.
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Speaker0: In other words, the man will know his dog, the dog will know its master,
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Speaker0: and in knowing him will be itself.
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Speaker0: Now look, that's pretty deep and worth exploring.
48:30
Speaker0: Basically, I think what Lewis is saying is that the personality of dogs,
48:36
Speaker0: other pets as well, are echoes of their master.
48:39
Speaker0: And in a sense, and many of us who have had pets have felt this,
48:43
Speaker0: the dogs, cats, beloved animals are part of themselves in some ways.
48:49
Speaker0: And Lewis is saying, in appalling sense of understanding of the body,
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Speaker0: not merely being the human body, but perhaps other things attached to it.
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Speaker0: Might not animals be also considered to be part of the body that will be resurrected?
49:07
Speaker0: I'm not sure Lewis is right, and he himself said, I'm not sure I'm right.
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Speaker0: But I will say that in answering that question, I've never really considered
49:16
Speaker0: that perspective before, and it's pretty deep, and it's pretty fascinating.
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Speaker0: What do you think will God resurrect beloved pets?
49:26
Speaker0: I'd love to hear from you, and you can reach us through our website,
49:29
Speaker0: either by recording a voicemail or sending a message.
49:34
Speaker0: Our website is everychurchflourishing.com. That's everychurchflourishing.com.
49:40
Speaker0: Please do leave us a message, weigh in. We'll read your responses on the air, so to speak.
49:46
Speaker0: And if you have a chance, run on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review.
49:50
Speaker0: We will see you next week when we will have part two of our roundtable.
49:55
Speaker0: And we've got lots more great episodes coming up to look forward to.
50:00
Speaker0: Thanks for listening. Good day to you and Godspeed.