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The Study of Baptism Part 1 - Simply Christ Podcast · Simply Christ Podcast

0:07
Welcome back to the Simply Christ podcast hosted by Leon
0:11
Martin, along with Aaron Keaton, Melvin Martin, Andrew Schrock
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and Dan Blatz. Let's get right to it.
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OK, we are ready to get started about all five of us here and we
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are ready. I think so.
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Going to give it a shot anyway. So welcome to the Simply Christ
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Podcast Bible study. Thanks for being on here.
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Appreciate you. Tonight, something a little
0:37
different, I mentioned it last week, since we were done going
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through Hebrews, we decided that we would tackle a couple of
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subjects and this is going to be a work in progress.
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We're going to feel our way through this as best we can.
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And for tonight we are going to discuss the topic of baptism,
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probably what it means and, and how to do it and how God views
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it at the different baptisms or whatever could be associated or
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related to this topic here tonight.
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So again, the same as previously, I hope that we could
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bring out what the Bible actually says about baptism
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instead of what public opinion is, because I believe that
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generally speaking that the the public view of what baptism
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actually is represents is skewed to some degree anyway.
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And well, I suppose a lot of things are really.
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But so we're going to endeavor to kind of go through the word
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and we might change the format up a little bit, who knows?
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But anyway, we're going to wing it where we are.
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So before we get started, I'll just open up with the word of
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prayer. God, thank you for this day.
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Thank you that you have these brothers that we could be
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gathered together digitally and pray that you would give us
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wisdom that we could speak the truth in love tonight.
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And that we could remember that you are our King and our
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Redeemer and that you love us and that you gave us these
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different concepts in your word and we should know how they
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work. So just pray that you would give
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us wisdom for that our hearers, give them understanding that
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they could learn the truth. And just pray that you would
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bless this evening be Jesus, Amen.
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All right, so as before, I got Aaron Keaton with us.
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He is from Kentucky, West Liberty, KY Melvin Martin, He is
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also from Kentucky down in Hopkinsville, KY Couple hours
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must have aired. Then we got Andrew Schott kind
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of somewhere in the middle of Ohio area there and Dan Blats.
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He is somewhere in Canada. We just know that he's a friend
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to the north. That's about all we really know
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about Dan. But they don't run state and
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county, so I don't know where to say.
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He's from out of the Canada right.
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Anyway, all right, so real quick before we get started here,
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baptism is I, I wrote some notes down so I don't forget what I
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wanted to kind of touch your it open.
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Baptism is talked about a lot. It's disagreed upon a lot.
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It's you know, I'm saying it's optional.
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So I'm saying that it it saves you.
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Others say it's symbolic, you know, but Jesus commanded it.
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I believe the Bible teaches up and Mark 1616 says he that
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believeth that is baptized shall be saved.
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Acts 238 says repent, be baptized, everyone of you.
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But then in Ephesians 2, we read that salvation is not of works,
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you know, So without ignoring Scripture, I'm just that's the
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kind of things that we're going to be answering here as we go
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through that. So what does the Bible actually
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say about baptism and why is that important for us?
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Those are going to be some of the things that we're going to
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go through and I'll toss the first question to to Aaron here
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and then we'll kind of go through like we did previously
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by turn. And then I'll have some follow
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up questions as as we go through.
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So the first question that I had sent these questions to the
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guys. So you guys know that that the
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questions are scripted that we could stay on track.
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The first question is when you hear the word baptism, what does
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that mean? I know the question says mean to
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you, but I think it's more important what does the what is
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actually being? So can you tell us there kind of
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what what baptism be it's or what it is, but looking at it.
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Yeah, I know we said this may be all fair, but we understand that
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there is different things referred to as baptism in the
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Bible. But when I think of it and when
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I, you know, kind of think of it, what pertains to us, I
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always think about a actual immersion in water, not just a
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sprinkling, but the actual covering of someone in water.
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But I also, I would say hand in hand with that, I think about a
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death, a burial and a resurrection like that is I
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think about a because that that's kind of the picture and
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I'm sure we'll get kind of get to this.
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But I do think about completely covering someone, dipping them
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down in the water and hand in hand with that, I think about a
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death, a burial and a resurrection, because that is,
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you know, it is connected with that.
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We'll see that maybe in verses later on.
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But, but I think that that's, that's what I usually think
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about. And I do think the Bible plays
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that out, that it, that that is a, that is a vision of what it
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is. What you see, you know, you're
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literally seeing someone, you're burying them, like laying them
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out, burying them, raising them up out of that water.
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And that's that's what I think of when I think about baptism.
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Yeah, that's good, Dad. Yeah, I would have probably
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given a very straightforward, simple answer at one time about
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water, about going in, having a preacher there and a person and
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putting them in the water and back up.
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But I would I would lean a little more anymore towards
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where he was going with this whole idea of death, burial and
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resurrection. When you start searching the
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word baptism, and Andrew hinted towards this before we started
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recording as well, you start to realize that we have one simple
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connotation that we carry with the word baptism, all of our
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minds. As soon as you hear the word
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baptism, everybody seems to jump to water.
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But you start reading the Bible and you realize that it's not at
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all consistent. Like there's at least seven
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different baptisms spoken up in the New Testament.
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There's the baptism unto Moses. It refers to the Jews leaving
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the wilderness, or sorry, leaving Egypt into the
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wilderness, going through the water or through that, through
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the sea, not ever getting wet, covered with the cloud.
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And you start to get this picture, this image of being
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completely enveloped in something.
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They were in the cloud and in the sea, but they never got wet.
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They were baptized. You get the baptism of water,
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which was John's baptism of baptism of repentance.
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And then you've got the baptism of suffering.
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Jesus talks about can you be baptized with the baptism I'm
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baptized with. And so there's a bunch of these
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different baptisms in the Bible that don't refer to water, and
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then there's some that do. And you are kind of left to kind
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of try to figure out what do you think baptism means and how
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should we then do it? And I think it's when you see
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the other baptisms and see what they actually mean, the context
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of them and how they're supposed to be carried out or how they
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are carried out, that you then know how to apply that to water
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baptism. And you start to realize that
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when I think of the word baptism anymore, I have a different
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connotation now. I don't immediately think water.
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I think spirit, I think body, I think death, I think burial,
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resurrection, stuff like that. So I hope we can kind of shift
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everyone's thinking in that regard.
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Yeah, absolutely, Velma. Yeah, it seems like when you
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look at baptism, especially in the book of Acts, it seems like
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you're right. There's like a spirit attached.
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It's not just water necessarily, but it does seem to me, to me
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like baptism is like a celebration, so to speak, is one
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of the things that comes to my mind when you think of baptism.
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And the other thing is, is that it's like like you are making,
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you are publicly making a commitment, so to speak to
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Jesus. If you look through Acts, I'm
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going to say something that might be a controversial maybe
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or might offend some people, but I'm going to say it anyway.
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You don't see anything about altar calls in the Scriptures,
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but you do see where when you read through Acts, you see where
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when they believed it says but when they in Acts 812, I'm just
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going to read this verse just as one as an example.
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But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning
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the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were
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baptized, both men and women. You see it that they believed on
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the word that was preached in in Jesus Christ and they
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immediately were baptized. So it seems like it was
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something that was like, how would you say it was like then
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saying that, yes, I am all in in in this gospel of Jesus Christ.
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And so, but yeah, there's so many other aspects of the
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baptism like you two were saying, and I'm not going to go
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in into that, but it's definitely more than just.
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Water for sure. And you agree?
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Yeah, there are so many angles that I don't think we can cover
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all in one evening, to be honest.
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But the first question was what I think about baptism and the
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last thing on my mind is water. Obviously from all the teaching
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and the studying I have done on baptism.
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I also immediately think of being swallowed up and someone
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in in a in an atmosphere that puts me in a different place.
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Like for instance this verse here in Where is it?
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I had everything here in First Corinthians 1212 starting.
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Therefore as the body is 1 and that many members and all the
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members of that one body being many are one body, so also is
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Christ. Then it says verse 13 For by 1
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Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or
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Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have all been, have
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been all made to drink into one spirit.
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So it's something that swallows kind of like, swallows us up and
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makes us all one, regardless of where we come from what, whether
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we have sin, whether we have anything that separates us from
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the oneness and the holiness and the righteousness and the
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goodness of God. It it takes that away and it
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makes US1 with the Father. It's a baptism that takes away
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the flesh, it takes away the sin, it takes away the old man
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and it puts the Holy Ghost in US.
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It puts the Holy Spirit in US. It's like when John came to
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baptize with water. He said the one that's coming
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after him, he's going to baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
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So we're going to that's something that happens when we
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get swallowed up in that baptism with water, which is the not
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water, it's the Spirit baptism, but it's in the same idea of
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water, which is why we do submersion.
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It swallows you up and you're buried in that and in it's a
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spiritual has a spiritual connotation to it like based on
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what God said is that this baptism makes US1 and it puts
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off the old man like in Romans 6.
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He says in Romans 6, I just had it.
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Why is everything disappearing now?
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Romans 6 says, know you not that so many of us were baptized into
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Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death, therefore we are
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buried with him by baptism into death.
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That like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of
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the Father, Even so we also should walk in newness of life.
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So by being baptized, a spiritual baptism, we have been
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made, we, we are now able to share and become what Christ is.
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It's a way of coming together. It's a way of being one with the
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Father. And in the meantime, by doing
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that, by that operation taking place, we get rid of the flesh,
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we get rid of the old man, we get rid of all these things and
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we're now seated in heavenly places.
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So it's like being born again. We're sown in corruption.
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We're raised in incorruption. We go down into the grave, we're
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baptized into the grave, into the death, and we lose the old
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man. We come out a new man glorified,
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and we're seated and having a place.
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And so that's what I think about baptism.
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And it has nothing to do with water, except for the fact that
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water baptism is a very accurate depiction or or an example of
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the Spirit thing that happened to us that kind of like
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swallowed us up and made us different.
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Yeah, yeah. That's good.
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And, and as I was reading it, you know, and, and just hearing
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you talk, Andrew and the others of you, it seems as if the word
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baptism actually literally means to be placed inside of is that
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is, that, is that what we see? Like I, I went to the the old
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Webster's dictionary and look up, but there it's it's
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basically, you know, talking about the sacrament of baptism
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doesn't really really give if that.
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But while you just read there in Romans 6, it very much gives the
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idea of the word baptism being used as being placed in spite of
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that literally says that there. Any thoughts on on the the
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literally word baptism? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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No, I think you're right. I I I'll never forget that.
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I can just hear Michael Pearl saying that, that, you know, he
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put something inside his Bible and closed it up and, you know,
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that was baptized into his Bible.
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Like the picture that you always see, regardless of regardless of
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the baptism you're talking about, the picture that you
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always see is being, as you said, covered or swallowed up
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or, you know, completely, completely a complete partaking
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in and of something would be certainly the way that I would
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always see that word. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
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Any of you guys have any input on this?
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Do you think that generally speaking that the church or the
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the public I guess in in general, is there idea of what
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baptism is? Is that accurate you think?
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No. I I think there's quite a bit of
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misconceptions there, generally speaking, right?
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General Christian population or just general population in like
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people? Well, I mean, 80% of Americans
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call themselves Christians, so I guess general population, yeah.
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OK. I I think there's definitely a
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misunderstanding of the fact that baptism doesn't always mean
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water. Clearly when when we're talking
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about Christians getting baptized, we're talking about
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that outward symbol that we all do.
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And you hear this at almost all baptisms.
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They'll say this is an outward symbol of an inward reality or
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an outward symbol of something Christ has done.
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So there's some semblance of that idea.
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But when they turn to Romans chapter 6, for instance, and
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they see the word baptism, they almost always read the word
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water baptism into there. Wait.
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And that's the problem. Like the text that Andrew read
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from, I think it was First Corinthians there it's it
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clearly says baptized by the Spirit into the body.
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We are now made one with the body.
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So every one of these different baptisms, these people were
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baptized in the cloud in the sea unto Moses.
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They were baptized in the water unto repentance.
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There Jesus was baptized completely immersed and covered
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in suffering, baptized in the fire as a picture of God's wrath
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and judgment on people, baptism in the Holy Ghost.
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So like all these things, you don't have one particular verse
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that says this is what baptism means.
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But by the time you get the the context that every time the word
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is used, you start to develop this completely enveloped idea.
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And then you get little hints too about fill up an Ethiopian
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eunuch. They stop and they say, look,
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here's water. What does hinder mean to get
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baptized? They both went down into the
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water and they baptized him. And so I came from a background
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where baptism was just a little sprinkle on the head. 3
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sprinkles, in fact, one in the name of the Father, the Son and
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the Holy Ghost. And there's just nothing in the
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text anywhere to support that being a baptism, unless maybe
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some of the Old Testament washings would be interpreted as
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baptisms. Yeah, in which case I was not
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talking about a baptism actually, right.
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No. No, it's true.
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Yeah, that's what I was going to say that that actually brought
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up a good point. I know Leon knows this because I
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taught it when he was down here visiting, but it's true.
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You'll really not find a baptism in the Old Testament.
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It's like you can find a washing, but you don't find a
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baptism. And I actually ran across the
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very interesting verse it says in John chapter 1 and verse 25.
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I think it is. I thought this was really
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interesting. John chapter one.
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It says, actually, let me let me back up to verse 23.
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This is they've came to John and are asking him something.
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And John 123 it says, And he said, Talk about John, John the
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Baptist, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make
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straight the way of the Lord, as saith the prophet Isaiah.
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And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
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And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizeth thou
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then, if thou be not the Christ or Elias, neither that prophet?
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So I think this is super interesting that they expected
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like and they, you know, like two things.
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One, they expected something different than their serum
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ceremonial washings, right? They they separated this out as
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baptism, not just a washing, but and they expected the Christ to
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do that. Now I don't, I actually have
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tried to figure out why and I'm not sure why.
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Like I could, I could maybe say it's some of those Old Testament
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verses where he says I'll wash you with, with pure water or
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something like that. Maybe that's what it is, I don't
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know. But I think it's interesting
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that they they were, they were questioning John the Baptist,
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John the Baptist to see if he was Christ because he was doing
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this act of baptizing people. And they say, why are you doing
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that if you're not the Christ? So they expected this to be a
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sign of the Christ. And I just think that's really,
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I don't know. I thought that was really
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interesting. Now let me kind of put something
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else in here just because I feel like we've something else that I
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think is also interesting is because I'm not trying to put
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more power on the baptism than what is there.
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But I also think that I think we struggle with the right way to
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preach it because as somebody already brought up, if you go
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through the book of Acts, every single time that you find people
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believing the gospel, they are immediately baptized.
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But that's actually not the verse I wanted to read.
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That's just a bunch of verses. But there's a this verse in Acts
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chapter 8 talking about the eunuch.
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I think this is really interesting.
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If you start in verse 35, this is when Philip comes up to the
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Chariots. The eunuch is riding along
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reading the prophet Isaiah's. Philip says, do you understand
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what you're reading? How can I accept some man should
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guide me? Philip gets up into the into the
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chariot with him. He sees the passage he's reading
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from verse 35 says this. Then Philip opened his mouth and
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began at the same scripture and preached unto him Jesus.
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And as they went on their way, they came into a certain water
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and the eunuch said, see here is water.
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What does hinder me to be baptized.
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It didn't my my point is this all it said is Peter is that
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Philip is preaching Jesus to him.
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And it's enough in the message that he that that the eunuch is
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stirred to say what is keeping me like what would hold me back
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from being baptized And and I and my point I'm that's one
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example. My point is if you go through
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the book of Acts, all the people related it with what you do when
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you believe right And they didn't delay they didn't.
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I've said this before to some of you all, but I think we've got I
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think we are missing something when people have claimed to be
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saved for months or years and then way down the road they
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decide they want to be baptized. We're missing something because
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that is not the the Bible example like we are not.
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And I think it's because I don't know I came out of church
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Christ. So I I know this well.
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We owe, we overcorrect so often that I think we just, we don't
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want to put too much emphasis on the water or on the action.
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We don't want to limit it to being only defined as water or
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whatever. I don't know what the reason is,
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but I do think we're missing something because I don't think
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it's playing out like it played out in the beginning.
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But that's just my thought. No, that's that that's really
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good. And which actually that kind of
23:31
answers that, that second question, you know, is baptism
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command commanded or is it symbolic or is it, you know,
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something more than that? I think that you clarified that
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really well. So Dad, the second or the Third
23:45
Point here, how do you understand the relationship
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between baptism and salvation? And I know, you know, there's
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here where we live. I think a lot about, you know,
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talk earlier too about the public idea of what baptism is
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like around here in the Midwest. We I see it equated with
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salvation, although synonymous with salvation actually in in a
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lot of instances. I don't know if that's, you
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know, actually that way or, or worldwide that way or if that's,
24:20
you know, heavily heavy influence of a certain
24:23
foundation or not. I don't know.
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But you know what, what is the relationship?
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I think kind of clarified that already as well.
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You know, you you see that in act where they they get saved,
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but then they get baptized. But what's your thoughts of
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that? There does seem to be a fair bit
24:40
in Jewish history about washings.
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And they had separate pools made in historic Jewish places
24:48
sometimes, often near the temple.
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And so many people would connect the washings of Leviticus, skin
24:54
diseases and all that with immersions and, and the priests
24:57
doing ritualistic things. And so it, it doesn't seem like
25:01
the Jews were surprised or weirded out or that the water
25:05
baptism was something new or strange to them.
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They, they just accepted it as an obvious thing when a prophet
25:12
like John the Baptist or Jesus came baptizing and Jesus himself
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had to be baptized so that he could be that perfect man, so
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that he could fulfill all righteousness.
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And then you find something very interesting.
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The, the first apostles are sent into all the world to preach the
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gospel and to baptize every creature.
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And then sometime later, some years later, the apostle Paul is
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chosen to be a minister and apostle to the Gentiles, not to
25:42
the Jewish people. And he says something very
25:44
interesting. He has a different Commission
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than what the early disciples had received, he says at the end
25:50
of First Corinthians chapter 1, he says that I thank God that I
25:55
baptize none of you. For he says Christ sent me not
25:59
to baptize but to preach the gospel.
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Whereas Philip and the early disciples would have felt, I
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think like I am preaching the gospel when I tell you believe
26:12
that the Messiah is who he says he is and be baptized.
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That was the message that they gave in that early part of the
26:19
church. And then Paul comes along and
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says I actually don't preach baptism.
26:24
So did did Jesus get give a different Commission to the
26:27
apostle Paul than he did to the to the early disciples?
26:30
It almost seems that way. And some people have taken that
26:33
to mean then that the Gentile church doesn't do water baptism
26:38
at all. I don't think that's the case
26:40
because Paul does say I did baptize the House of Stephanus
26:43
and I may have baptized another, but I'm not quite sure.
26:46
But he, he basically says I do not preach baptism, rather I
26:50
preach the gospel. And so he felt like it seemed
26:53
like he felt like if I preach baptism, it's going to stand in
26:57
the way of salvation. And so to me, I have very much
27:02
separated the ideas where you simply need to believe the
27:05
gospel. Now, the first step of
27:07
obedience, I think, should be baptism.
27:09
And so I wouldn't have too much trouble telling somebody if they
27:13
have professed faith in Christ, then I would challenge them.
27:16
Well, then you should get in the water.
27:18
You ought to be baptized. And it is strange to me when
27:20
somebody goes weeks or months or years without getting baptized
27:24
because of the, you know, the scariness around it.
27:26
And it feels like such an official statement.
27:29
And like said in the in the introduction, it is like a
27:32
public declaration of standing with Christ.
27:35
And so I think it's an important step of obedience, but I really
27:38
think we need to be careful to make sure it's distinct and
27:41
separate from the gospel. Yeah, that's, that's really
27:45
good. I appreciate that.
27:47
Melvin, what are your thoughts on the baptism of salvation
27:49
issue? Well, obviously if you read the
27:53
scriptures, it's always. After.
27:57
The baptism of John, obviously the baptism of repentance after
28:01
that, like from the book of Acts on it's always says it's always
28:08
a word believed first and like they preached and they believed
28:12
and then they were baptized. So there is for me.
28:19
Well, I guess I'm going to leave that later because we are going
28:21
to have our own testimony. But a lot of people get baptized
28:26
thinking that if they get baptized, they're somehow going
28:30
to be right with God. And and that's not that's not
28:34
true. That's not biblical because just
28:38
like Andrew was saying earlier that there is there is something
28:42
that happens when you believe when you believe you get
28:47
Christians tells us that you. Were.
28:50
An the old man dies and you become a new creature, a new
28:54
creation. So there's a burning that
28:57
happens and there's a there's a resurrection of a new man,
29:01
Right. But that happens when you
29:03
believe. That doesn't happen necessarily
29:05
when you're baptized. That happens the moment you
29:08
believe. So yeah, but it's just baptism
29:13
is not at all associated with salvation.
29:17
You first must believe, and then you, out of obedience, get
29:23
baptized. Yeah, so I was thinking I'll
29:28
turn it over to you Andrew here in a second, but dad was making
29:32
the the comment Mark 6. You know that that it almost
29:36
seems like Paul had a little bit different idea regarding that
29:41
the subject of baptism and what the early church like if
29:44
Matthew, Mark, Luke, what you read there, because Mark 1616
29:48
says he that believeth and is baptized in faith.
29:52
And I know that a lot of people kind of kind of run through that
29:55
verse regarding the connection. They're like, wow, you don't see
29:58
there. There's a 2 step process.
30:00
You know, you got to have both in order to to go ahead, you
30:03
know, but anyway, we'll come. I'll let Andrew go and then then
30:06
back to you there. Yeah, this is something that's
30:12
really good to talk about because there's a lot of
30:17
churches that connect baptism with their salvation.
30:23
And the Bible shows that both happened.
30:26
If you read the Bible, some were baptized and the Holy Ghost came
30:30
and they started speaking in town and they were definitely
30:33
endowed with the Holy Spirit. They they were different.
30:36
They were changed. Something happened.
30:38
And then I was trying to find the verse.
30:41
I had it earlier where it shows that it was Peter.
30:47
Now I can't find it. So annoying.
30:51
Oh, here it is Acts 19 verse one.
30:59
And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul
31:03
having passed through the upper coast, came into Ephesus and
31:06
finding certain disciples. And he said in them, had he
31:08
received the Holy Ghost, since he believed?
31:10
And they said, we have not so much as heard of the Holy Ghost.
31:13
Shoot, this is not the one that walked out.
31:16
Here it is, Acts 1044. Here Peter was preaching in Acts
31:23
1044, and the people, the Gentiles, received the Holy
31:31
Ghost while he was speaking, and they started speaking in
31:34
tongues. And then they were like, hey,
31:37
why aren't these guys baptized? And then they got baptized after
31:41
that with water. And earlier in Acts and Acts 2,
31:45
they were baptized with water. And then this, the Holy Ghost
31:49
came. But the Bible is full of telling
31:53
us to believe and persuading us to believe.
31:56
The believing of the gospel is what baptizes you into Christ
32:01
Jesus. It's not water that does that.
32:04
So some people, I think believe when they got baptized, when
32:07
they, that was how they believe this.
32:11
They stepped into that water and a lot of times they'd have a big
32:14
public effect because in any relation, even the Jews, if you
32:19
got baptized, you were on the list to be martyred or you know,
32:23
you, you were, you were a lot of people that get baptized, water
32:27
baptism are signing a death warrant that they're going to be
32:32
persecuted. So I think it has a, an effect
32:35
in that way and a spiritual effect.
32:37
But what I hate is how churches try to make this, use this to
32:44
make people bound to their denomination or to their little
32:49
body there. It's like it.
32:51
They use it for leverage to make them part of their system.
32:56
And the only thing that we need to be baptized into is into the
33:00
body of Jesus Christ, not into some local church group.
33:06
Brotherhood and commitment to 1 and each other is supposed to be
33:09
driven by love, not the force or the leverage of guilt tripping
33:13
by baptism. That's as unbiblical as it gets.
33:16
And that Dan, what Dan was talking about.
33:20
I think that was the reason Paul was saying that he's glad he
33:23
didn't baptize any. He's not that he's against
33:25
baptism is the fact that people were saying that they were
33:31
thinking that that somehow ties them to the person that baptized
33:35
them. Because if you read before, it
33:36
says now this, I say in verse 12 that everyone of you saith I'm
33:40
of Paul and I'm of Apollos and I'm of Cephas and I'm of Christ.
33:44
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you or
33:48
were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
33:52
So I think that clears that up. I don't think he's saying not to
33:56
get water baptized. I know that.
34:00
I know that a lot of people use that to justify not being
34:03
baptized, but I think Paul saw the ugliness of using baptism to
34:10
somehow tie people to your own organization, whether it's a
34:14
pastor or the nomination. In this case, it was Paul that
34:19
didn't even want to be followed in that way, didn't want that
34:22
loyalty in that way, or Apollo. And he says, if this is how you
34:25
interpret baptism, I'm glad I didn't baptize any of you.
34:30
I'm glad I didn't. And we turn that around and do
34:34
the exact same thing that Paul was trying to not do by saying
34:38
something as radical as I'm not going to baptize you.
34:40
And yet we turn around and use baptism as leverage to keep
34:45
people in our church. The guilt trick them to follow
34:49
our ordinance and rules and our man made system that has nothing
34:53
to do with being baptized into the body of Christ that makes us
34:57
one that presents us blameless it that makes us new a new
35:01
creature in Christ. The only way you become a new
35:04
creature is to be baptized into Christ and to defile that with a
35:08
man made ordinances and orchestrated system just really
35:13
makes me mad. It's I I hear it over and over
35:16
lately, like, well, in order for me to get baptized, I have to
35:19
commit to all these things. That's from the pit of health.
35:26
Yeah. Shut up.
35:27
And they say things I regret. I, I wish you'd really let us
35:32
know what you feel about this subject that, that that's really
35:36
good and it's true. I, I believe that too often we,
35:41
we see those lines blurred to where we almost think that
35:47
church membership of, you know, baptized baptism into the church
35:51
is synonymous with, you know, what baptism is actually talking
35:54
about. I, I don't think it is all, but
35:56
yeah. What's your your faults on this?
35:58
The relationship between baptism itself?
36:03
I was looking up the verse but I can't find it.
36:10
I'll just actually, I almost thought I found it there.
36:19
Anyway, what I was going to say was I was kind of going to go
36:21
back to the Corinthians as well. And I actually don't.
36:26
I don't think that's at all what Paul was saying.
36:28
I would. I'll learn much more to what
36:31
Andrew said. I actually think if you read
36:34
that well. Well, let me back up and read
36:36
something from Acts first Acts chapter 18.
36:43
Acts chapter 18 is when Paul first goes to Corinth and it he
36:50
I won't read the whole chapter, but he reasoned in the Sabbath
36:53
got or in the synagogue every Sabbath day persuaded Jews in
36:56
the Greeks and then it goes on and says in verse 8.
37:03
This is Acts 18 and verse 8 says Crispus the chief ruler of the
37:06
synagogue believed on the Lord with all his house and many of
37:09
the Corinthians hearing believed and were baptized in the verse I
37:13
was looking for and I might be mistaken what it says I was
37:16
thinking Paul said to the Corinthians that he didn't want
37:19
to build upon another man's found, you know like something
37:24
effective. I wanted to go where Christ had
37:27
not yet been preached. So I'm saying that to say this,
37:31
I actually do think Paul was going everywhere preaching
37:34
baptism. I do.
37:35
I do think he was. And I would say that also
37:38
because of like what Andrew said, he actually is not.
37:43
He's not saying, he's not saying that I was not sent to preach
37:49
that thing. He's actually saying, like
37:54
Andrew said, he's really dealing with the divisions and he's and
37:58
he's actually saying back to verse 30, this First Corinthians
38:02
113, he says he is Christ divided.
38:04
Was Paul crucified for you or were you baptized in the name of
38:08
Paul? So he is suggesting that I was,
38:11
you know, I was having you people to be baptized, but it
38:14
wasn't in my name. Like I was suggesting you do
38:18
that, but not in my name. And then he goes on to say, I
38:21
thank God that I baptize none of you but Christmas Sagaius less
38:24
than he should say I baptize my own name.
38:27
And then he remembers another household that he baptized and
38:30
then he makes then he makes the comment Christ sent me not to
38:34
baptize. Like that's not the point.
38:35
I, I'm not here to just, you know, like I've actually known
38:40
people that felt better about their baptism because of who
38:44
ministered it, right? Like they felt like it was more
38:47
effectual because of who did it. So I, I actually don't think
38:51
he's at all saying that's not in this new, because Paul, I, I
38:55
totally agree. Paul has a a greater revelation,
38:58
a different dispensation of the gospel, but I don't think
39:03
baptism was lessened in it than what it was in this other
39:08
message that Peter and all Philip and all these other
39:12
peoples was preaching. I don't think it was any less in
39:15
it. I think in this case he was glad
39:17
he didn't baptize because they would have laid their claim to
39:22
Paul because that's what he just said.
39:23
Some of them are appalled, you know, like following Apollo's,
39:27
some of them are following Paul. Some of them are saying they're
39:30
of Christ. Some of them say they were
39:31
Peter. So I think he's just glad that
39:34
he doesn't have that, that worry to say, Oh my, now, now they're
39:40
they're divided because of who baptized them.
39:43
I think is actually his point. But that's all I was going to
39:46
say. Yeah.
39:47
So, so he did. He didn't teach that because he
39:51
didn't want to want to bring that to Visit Point.
39:54
No, I think he did teach baptism.
39:56
I'm saying I'm yeah, I'm saying I don't think he had all
39:58
listened. The amount of relating believing
40:05
and being baptized, I don't I don't agree with that.
40:07
I think he I think he did preach it.
40:09
I think he's only addressing the fact that he's glad he didn't
40:15
baptize all those people or maybe he only names 2
40:19
households. He's glad that he didn't have a
40:21
greater following because of him doing the baptizing compared to
40:26
somebody else doing it. So, and like I said, I'm saying
40:30
that because I read, that's why I read the Acts chapter 18 or
40:34
whatever it was, is because he seems to be the first one to get
40:37
there and like they're all baptized.
40:40
So I know it is in his message as well as what I'm trying to.
40:44
That was my point. I know he's, I know it's in the
40:46
message. He's not, he's not leaving that
40:48
out of his message or I don't think he's lessening this idea
40:52
of water baptism in his message. Yeah.
40:56
So is that? Oh, go ahead.
40:59
So is that the I like? So how do you reconcile?
41:02
Because I've also kind of wondered that, you know, the
41:04
people that are on the side of, you know, be, be, believe, and
41:09
then, you know, be baptized as, you know, 2 separate steps.
41:13
You won't be saved until you get these, you know, finally
41:15
committed. Like how, how do you, how would
41:19
you contest that though? Like there's nothing or or is
41:22
there something? Well, like I said, personally
41:28
dealing with people that believe it's not that you're not saved
41:32
until you get baptized, I would always tell them.
41:35
I would always refer them back to like Romans chapter 4.
41:38
God is not imputing righteousness for you agreeing
41:43
that you need to be baptized or nor is he withholding it until
41:47
you do that act. He's imputing righteousness
41:50
because you believe it. But I do think that that's
41:54
that's why I in my first comment, I said I related so
41:57
much with this death, burial and resurrection, because I think
42:01
that's, you know, how we said that, that it relates to these
42:06
other things. I think that that is what that
42:10
is the significance of it being almost this one step of
42:16
believing and quickly same hour, same day, whatever followed by
42:21
the baptism is because you are you're painting the picture of
42:25
what God's done to you. He has killed.
42:28
He's put you to death and raised up a new man.
42:31
And I think that that's I think that in the beginning it was it
42:35
was so related to that death of the old man and raising up of
42:39
the new that it was followed by the act like it was just a
42:44
showing of what's happened to me, not a delay, but a following
42:48
that up that that's my thought on it.
42:50
But that's how. I appreciate and that's that's
42:53
what I wanted that tie. Like where do we find that
42:56
distinction where we can say no, you know, baptized baptism
43:00
really then is a what is it an obedience issue?
43:04
You know, it's actually kind of optional as far as if you think
43:07
about salvation itself. I would I would never say that
43:10
it's optional, I guess because I think it is.
43:13
It is what not required necessarily, but expected.
43:18
Well, I think, yeah, I think that's our problem is we, we
43:24
can't say it's commanded without feeling like we're implying that
43:30
salvation's withheld if it's not followed.
43:33
You know what I mean? I think that's our, I saw that
43:36
in you just now. You struggled with that.
43:38
Like you wasn't willing when you was trying to say it.
43:40
You wasn't willing to say it was commanded because you didn't
43:43
want it to be connected with God withholding salvation because
43:49
you didn't do it. And I'm, and that's what I was
43:51
saying earlier, I think we've missed something because we, we,
43:54
we struggle with this soul. And I just, I'm not saying I've
43:59
got the answer, but I've just, I do think we've, we've missed it
44:03
a little. Yeah, well, I wouldn't agree
44:05
with that 100%, Andrew. You had started saying
44:08
something. I.
44:09
Don't remember what it was, it was a while back.
44:13
I want to say one thing. One thing I noticed also as you
44:17
look through the Scriptures, when they believed and then they
44:22
were baptized, it says that then they were disciples.
44:25
Like it always uses the word disciples after they were
44:30
believed and after they believed and were baptized.
44:33
I don't know what first significance that has, but it
44:36
seemed like that was like the the sign or not really the sign,
44:42
but you know, when they believed and then they immediately were
44:45
baptized and then they were a disciple of Christ.
44:50
And so that was kind of interesting to me.
44:53
I think you're right, Aaron, when you read through the
44:56
scriptures, we are missing something.
44:58
I think on the baptism, like it's, it always is immediate.
45:03
And what you just said about, you know, baptism being an
45:07
outward thing of, of the being buried, the old man being buried
45:11
and being, you know, regenerated, that that makes
45:17
sense. Like that would make sense why
45:19
they did it immediately because I always that was a question in
45:21
my mind and still was why? Why right away?
45:26
Because it's always immediate. Yeah, and I think you touched on
45:31
also a good point there in the fact that you said it's because
45:35
I wrote actually made a note of that.
45:36
John 41 says when therefore the Lord knew how that the Pharisees
45:42
had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than
45:48
John. Like I think it is also, I think
45:52
you could, I think you could legitimately say it is also a,
45:59
it's like a I'm trying to like how to say it and not mess it
46:04
up. It is a, a pup like the, the
46:09
outsiders looking in her saying, oh, this guy's following Christ
46:13
now, right? Would you agree with that?
46:14
In other words, the outsiders looking in her like, oh, oh, he
46:18
got baptized. This guy's actually he's he's,
46:22
he is committed to following Jesus now.
46:24
Like they, they looked at it that way like the outside, the
46:28
people on the outside would have looked at it like that.
46:32
And and let me, I really, I don't want, but I, I just
46:37
thought of something we passed up a long time ago.
46:42
I don't think, I don't think I agree with Dan that they already
46:47
were washing had these washings and stuff.
46:51
But the difference is if you go back and read all those Old
46:54
Testament things people were told to go wash.
46:58
They'd never seen a guy administer a, a, a baptism.
47:04
They're washing themselves, right?
47:06
The priest is not washing them like they're told to go wash.
47:09
That's the difference that this is this is someone administering
47:14
this dipping like whereas the washings that they're told to do
47:18
would be like we'd think of a shower or a bath.
47:21
They may have been sitting down in the water.
47:22
I may have been getting down in it, but they are there.
47:25
It's more like a washing. Whereas this is, this is
47:29
showing, like I said, it's like you're burying somebody and then
47:32
raising them back up and and somebody is administering that
47:36
right rather than them doing the washing to themselves.
47:40
We could. We could.
47:41
Show the same thing by burying somewhat in under third, Right.
47:45
Going to get back out again. It's just a lot on handier than
47:47
water. Yeah, it would show the same
47:50
thing. Really, though.
47:51
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
47:52
What we're doing is is showing what happened here.
47:57
How about then, both John's baptism and Jesus's baptism
48:02
before death, burial, resurrection even took place?
48:05
It was already a baptism down into water and back up.
48:11
Are you what? What's the question?
48:13
Asking a question. If if water baptism is a symbol
48:18
of death and resurrection, how come they were doing it prior to
48:22
death and resurrection? Well, I would say that John
48:26
actually just looked at this. John is doing it in preparation
48:35
of the Messiah coming right? Like if you go back and look at
48:38
Mark, I was just studying this Sunday night.
48:40
If you go back and look at Mark, John says it.
48:44
Let me turn over there. John is saying it about, about
48:54
Christ's coming, right? I mean, like that's, that's his
48:56
point. That's what he's doing.
48:58
He's he's paving the way. In fact, if you think about it
49:02
like this, he is trying, if you believe there's a difference in
49:06
the Kingdom of heaven and the and the Kingdom of God and that
49:09
that it's actually the Kingdom of heaven is being offered.
49:12
That also is significant in this because he is preparing a people
49:17
for the Lord to show up, right? He is, he's preparing them for
49:22
this, for this Lord to show up. And, and, and I said this too in
49:27
the study there Sunday night, John is, well, let's compare him
49:33
to the scribes and Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees are
49:35
saying, you need to be like us, like you need to make sure you
49:40
wash your hands. You need to make sure you wash
49:41
your cups. You need to follow the laws like
49:44
we follow them. But they're doing all these
49:46
things. John is just across the board
49:49
saying, no, you're all sinners. You need to put away that sin
49:54
and be prepared because the Lord's about ready to show up.
49:57
So he is, I think that John, I don't think there's, I
50:02
understand it's not happened yet, but if you look at it like
50:06
he is, he is laying out the red carpet for Christ and Christ is
50:12
going to do this right. He's going to perform this act
50:15
of dying, raising again, all that.
50:18
So it's actually like a in my thoughts, it is a foreshadowing
50:23
what's to come. So I think it is a he, you know,
50:26
like he's the forerunner. He is to do this to prepare the
50:31
way for the Lord in two senses, get the people cleaning for him,
50:35
right? Like literally clean the people
50:37
up for Christ the Messiah to get there.
50:40
And then in the second sense, it is showing.
50:43
In other words, Christ picks up the baton, if you will, and
50:46
starts doing the same thing that he was doing.
50:49
And it's, it's going to, it's something that's going to play
50:53
out when Christ comes on the scene.
50:57
And I just think it's like painting the pictures, like
50:59
Hebrew says about the Old Testament.
51:00
He's painting the picture of what's to come, if you will.
51:03
Sure, I don't know. That's that's the way I looked
51:05
at it but I might be wrong but. There, do you have any?
51:09
I I figured you might have an idea on that too.
51:12
I I agree with what Aaron's saying.
51:15
Yeah, I, I think all baptisms speak of the one true baptism.
51:21
So there in the book of Hebrews, we talked about this a little
51:24
bit. It talks about the doctrine,
51:25
singular doctrine of baptisms, plural.
51:29
And in the book of Ephesians chapter 4, it says there's one
51:32
Lord, 1 faith, 1 baptism. And I think there is only one
51:36
true, true baptism. And it is baptism that saves us.
51:39
It's the baptism of us into the body of Christ and Christ being
51:43
baptized into death and being raised again.
51:46
That is how we are saved through that one baptism.
51:49
And so the culture and customs that I came from was that you
51:54
could not ever get baptized in water a second time because that
51:58
was the unpardonable sin. You've now denied the one
52:01
baptism. And it's just not talking about
52:04
water at all in the book of Ephesians or in Romans.
52:08
And so the baptisms that are spoken of theologically
52:11
throughout the halls of pistols don't seem to ever be talking
52:14
about water. Like we mentioned before, all
52:17
baptism in every context is like, if I take my phone and put
52:22
it in my inside pocket, I've now baptized my phone into my inside
52:26
pocket. It's now wherever the jacket
52:28
goes, the bap, the, the phone goes, right?
52:30
And so you start to get this idea of things being put inside
52:35
of. And so in the epistles, Paul
52:37
speaks of the spiritual baptism that we have by the Spirit of
52:41
God into the body of Christ, and we participate with him because
52:45
of that. And so there's some, there
52:47
almost seems to be a disconnect. If there's so much emphasis
52:50
placed on physical water baptism, why is it never
52:54
actually mentioned in the epistles?
52:56
Now, most people that are strong advocates of water baptism in
52:59
that sense would say, well, all the baptisms are a reference to
53:03
water. I, I would not see that in the
53:05
in the epistles. And so I would agree that I have
53:08
probably disconnected those things maybe too much.
53:11
And I've struggled with this in the past.
53:12
In the book of Acts chapter 10, when Paul preaches to Peter,
53:17
sorry, Peter preaches to Cornelius, the first non Jew.
53:21
He's somewhat of a Jewish proselyte.
53:24
He comes to faith and the Holy Spirit falls upon them.
53:27
And Peter immediately commanded them to be baptized.
53:30
And I remember thinking about that because my wife had
53:33
professed faith in Christ. And I'm like, Can you imagine if
53:36
I were to command you now to be baptized like it would?
53:40
It would feel like a very strange thing.
53:41
But many churches have done that now where, hey, if you want to
53:45
be a part of us, you have to get baptized.
53:47
Like that is a command. And I think if what Aaron is is
53:50
saying is consistent, then we probably should hold people to
53:54
it. Like you can't be a part of us.
53:57
You can't be fully one with us. I mean, I accept you as a
54:00
brother, but you're not, you're not being obedient to God if
54:04
you're not baptized, because it should go hand in hand, right?
54:08
Now, I totally agree with that. Actually, I would say that is
54:11
commanded. And I would also say that that's
54:14
actually what you said is not right, because we just said that
54:18
Paul was mentioning water baptism in Corinthians.
54:22
You know what I mean? Like he's saying I baptize some
54:25
of you. So he is talking about water
54:26
baptism like he. Yeah, I mean.
54:28
I mean when he, when he's talking about the theological
54:30
concepts of us being made one with God, the baptisms that are
54:34
then referred to in Ephesians and in Romans, I believe
54:37
Colossians mentions it. It's not spot Speaking of water,
54:41
right? That's my view.
54:45
I, I listen to a lot of hyper dispensationalist, which I think
54:49
they're a little bit off balance to the point where know that
54:54
water baptism is not going to save you.
54:59
And it's also not it's, it's not if you get, if you believe the
55:05
gospel, you're baptized into Christ, you're good to go.
55:08
Getting water baptized is not going to keep your salvation
55:13
better than if you didn't. It's just, it's just an outward
55:18
thing that you can do to the public that God tells tells us
55:21
to do or that they did back then.
55:22
Even Paul did, even his people did.
55:25
And I think it has, it has a major spiritual significance in
55:29
the Kingdom of darkness or whatever.
55:32
Like Aaron was saying, people that saw it looked on the
55:34
outside like, oh man, that guy made-up his mind.
55:37
He's following Jesus Christ. But I don't, I don't, I have a
55:43
lot of weight on baptism as far as where it places us in the
55:46
body of Christ. I think that is the big problem
55:50
I have with water baptism is that the churches have made it
55:54
something that ties you to them to the point where a lot of
55:57
people are can't decide if they want to be baptized because they
56:01
don't like what they're then committing to, because they're
56:03
committing way more to, they have to commit to way more than
56:07
just follower of Jesus Christ. They have to commit to the
56:10
church. And that's why I think that
56:12
there's a lot of fault. It actually goes against, again,
56:16
opposite from what Paul's trying to teach.
56:19
But I just want to say that I remember what I was going to
56:24
say. So there's a lot of there's two
56:29
options where people get saved when they get baptized or they
56:34
believed and then they get baptized.
56:36
Either way, they got saved. So there's a lot of people that
56:39
don't want to get baptized because they're waiting to for
56:42
confirmation or they just don't know if they believe.
56:44
They don't know if they're born again.
56:46
They don't know if it's just them wanting to get baptized so
56:49
that they feel better or if, if is it real?
56:53
Am I just, I've been baptized a couple times already and I don't
56:57
feel any different. Nothing has changed and I just
57:00
want to tell that person that get your eyes off of baptism and
57:04
look at the gospel, the port. What is important for you right
57:08
now is to believe the gospel and to rest in it.
57:10
Stop looking for something. Stop looking for in even in
57:14
yourself to find justification of your faith.
57:18
Convince. Be convinced in your mind by
57:20
reading Roman, by reading the book of John, by by seeing what
57:25
Jesus did for you and being convinced and start resting in
57:28
the work of Christ and leaving the gospel and resting unit is
57:34
what's going to settle you getting baptized again and again
57:37
and again like a lot of people do.
57:39
It's not going to bring you peace.
57:42
There's a lot of people that think they have finally gotten
57:44
peace when they got baptized again.
57:46
I would argue they just finally realized that they need to just
57:49
rest. They just give up.
57:51
They just give up. They're done.
57:53
They're done getting baptized again and they just believe.
57:57
And some of you might not be safe and just need to get
57:59
baptized because that's you stepping out in faith and
58:03
finally taking the plunge that I'm going for Jesus In the
58:06
Bible. It happened both ways, so I'm
58:08
not opposed to that either. Yeah, I think that's that's good
58:13
kind of what Aaron at them or talking about their, you know,
58:16
if they're committing, I see no problem with someone making it a
58:20
public commitment. As a matter of fact, I would
58:23
have my brother do that or my sister in Christ do that, make a
58:28
make, you know, get baptized because that's something that I
58:32
can see as a commitment or whatever.
58:35
But to use that same commandment and require that to be a part of
58:39
this particular denomination or group, that's where I would, you
58:43
know, I, I think I think that's what you were both kind of
58:46
saying. But let's just be be sure that
58:50
we understand that if it's a if it's a declaration of anything
58:53
at all, it's a direct declaration of be becoming a
58:57
child of the living God, not a child of a certain group or
59:01
denomination. You know, as long as we can
59:03
distinguish that, I think we're fair, right.
59:05
I mean, that's yeah, I totally. Agree.
59:09
How many people do you think would get baptized if there was
59:11
nothing else tied to it? It was just the remission of
59:16
sins, the fact that your sins are washed away.
59:19
Your mate want your Jesus Christ put you in his envelope and
59:22
you're one of his. You're part of the family of
59:24
God. Most people want to be part of
59:27
the family of God. It's just all the baggage that
59:30
the churches and try to tie to that is what gets people to
59:34
think, you know what, it doesn't seem right and well, it isn't
59:38
right. So to that person I know this
59:41
sign sounds dividing. A lot of people think we need to
59:43
reunite. Like this is very divisive
59:47
rhetoric or whatever. I hope it divides people from a
59:54
man made organization and unites people in the body of Christ.
59:59
That's what I want. Yeah, yeah.
1:00:01
That's good. Yeah, I think that's important,
1:00:04
like Leon said, and I hope I wasn't given that impression.
1:00:07
Yeah, I, I just, I, I mean, I grew up being told that's what
1:00:11
you do. You, you relate that to, you are
1:00:14
in the right group of people now.
1:00:17
And I don't relate it that way at all.
1:00:19
I I relate it to, to a, a whole body of believers, right?
1:00:25
I mean, it's, it's a whole body of believers wherever they are
1:00:28
in the world that I have now been part of, right?
1:00:31
It's not a, it's not that I am baptizing you into this church,
1:00:35
but into the body of Christ, right?
1:00:38
Like a body of Christ, not because yeah, now I hope, like I
1:00:43
said, I hope I didn't and make that or give that impression
1:00:47
that I was wanting to baptize people into my church or, you
1:00:50
know, like I think that's no, you know, no.
1:00:52
You didn't that that that's why I like what it talks about when
1:00:56
it says that I mentioned earlier that they were disciples of
1:01:00
Jesus. Like, you know, hit this because
1:01:02
John was making disciples, right, baptizing and making
1:01:07
disciples and Jesus was baptizing and making disciples
1:01:11
and it says there that John had made more disciples than Jesus.
1:01:14
That was the question. So in my mind, if you are being
1:01:18
when you become baptized means you are now a disciple of Jesus,
1:01:22
not a member of some denomination or some earth.
1:01:26
That pretty much makes it clear in my mind.
1:01:30
Well, I guarantee that we could make this a 2 or maybe even a
1:01:33
three hour episode, but we're not going to do.
1:01:36
It. Because I really wanted to hear
1:01:38
what your thoughts were on I've got.
1:01:41
I've got a lot of people around me that I know that that think
1:01:44
that there is a power in baptism.
1:01:50
Wanted to ask. You, we're not going to go
1:01:51
there, but keep that on the cup of your shirt for next week
1:01:54
because I, I do want to know what your opinion is regarding
1:01:58
like this. There's some spiritual power
1:02:00
that comes upon you when you get back that time anyway.
1:02:03
So yeah, that's, that's what we got going into.
1:02:05
And then next week also, I'm going to ask for your kind of
1:02:09
testimony regarding baptism personally.
1:02:12
So anyway, we are going to go ahead and cut it off for tonight
1:02:17
right midstream here. So thanks for being with us.
1:02:20
We enjoyed it tremendously. And I hope you did.
1:02:24
And we'll see you back here next week, same time, same place.
1:02:27
God bless you all. Thank you very much.