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HR Sucks… Until It Saves Your Business · Business Roundtable

• 0:31
  Speaker 1: All right, welcome back to the Business Round People podcast.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: I am your host, David Carr of Steward your Business
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: bringing people together to accomplish great things. And we have
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: another great guest here on the podcast, Dannon Carrier of
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Carrie HR who she and I are fellow compatriots in
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Success Champions Network. You may have heard me talk about
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: that with some past episode guests, and Shannon is an
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: expert in all things h R and so we were
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I was telling her, you know my working title this
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: this podcast about HR sucks until it saves your business. Uh.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: And so we're gonna go dive into why HR is
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: today is more than just compliance but really about a
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: strategic advantage in your business. So I'm excited to have
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Shannon here. Welcome to the podcast. Shannon.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. Saved. I'm so excited. And
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: this is one of my favorite topics because I think
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: it sucks too and I love talking about the ways
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: we can leverage it for the good.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, So I would like to start podcasts before
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: we get into the meat of the topic here a
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: little bit, Shannon, because you know, we're talking to business
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: owners leaders, uh, those that are in some kind of
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: role of the authority impact in their business. And so
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about what got you to
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: creating you know, carry hr why you started your business
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: a little bit, and you know a little bit about
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: your background before we jump into it.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so I did doing a multiple of years in
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: corporate So of twenty years, I spent in different corporate
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: organizations in multiple industries, from financial services to construction to
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: medical device, you name it, I touched it at some
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: point or have since then. And I would tell you
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: that there's so much good intention when you're in especially
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: a larger organization, but even in smaller organizations, to do
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: the right thing and create good programs and get people
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: excited to work at an organization. The problem is especially
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: as you as you start to grow, the programs get
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: bigger and fancier and sexier, if you will, but they start,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: but you realize that the problems are really at the foundation,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: So you almost you grow so fast and the foundations
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: weren't there in the first place, and mistakes start to happen.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: So all that great work you're trying to do doesn't
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: have the same oath or quality that it should because
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  Speaker 2: we miss those those foundational pieces that make an organization great.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: And at carry Er HR, that's what we're focused on,
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: some of those foundations that create really good processes because
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: I believe that processes are the key to good culture.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: You don't start culture first, you start processes first.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know you're right of the money, and
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I love because you know, what I do is the
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: people side of things, and you want to tie people
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: and processes together. And I think, you know, there's oftentimes
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: I think when you're first starting out, and I've had
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: a number of podcasts up as recently, having some different
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: lawyers and legal side come in and they don't understand
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: the value of these different entities and HR specifically until
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: unfortunately a lawsuit or they lose their best team member.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, having you on Shannon
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: here is I want to help unpack and get breakdown
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: any myths here that people feel like, oh, I don't know,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if HR is really necessary
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: or where do I bring them in because you know,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: we don't want you in that pain situation. But you know,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: talk to a little bit Shannon about you know, maybe
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: a company or a story where you've they said, well,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: we're just too small for HR, you.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Know, right, and everyone thinks so until the problem happens.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And I appreciate that, And I think because
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: it feels so big, it feels like bringing something like
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: HR is bringing a set of rules, is bringing an
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: authority to come in and tell you how to run
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: your business.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: And you don't want that. You want to run your
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: business right. You don't want that piece in your way.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: And I think what we miss is bringing on HR
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  Speaker 2: doesn't have to mean you bring on a massive, full
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: time director that does all the work and sets all
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: the rules. There are increments of ways that you can
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  Speaker 2: do it, depending on what size you are or what
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: stage you are in your process.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I often like to say, and I'll tell you a
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: story here in just a minute, But I often like
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: to say that really it's not about the size of
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: the company. But the risk starts the second you hire
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: someone outside of your family. Don't know them, you don't
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: have leverage over them, they're a stranger all extend. That's
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: when the that's when the risks start to happen. I
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: do have one example of where it went very wrong
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: for a company, and then I tell you what it
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: went right, because I think both are really key. So
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: where it's been wrong, and I think this is the
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: story that you're thinking of that I had shared earlier,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: and it was a great company. Five employees, they were
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: doing they have a shop, they're doing great work. And
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: one employee left and they didn't think twice about it, right,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: It's just that employee decided to go, and that's how
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: it goes. And it wasn't. But two months later they
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: get a request in the mail saying that they owe
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: that person additional pay. If there's anything that makes you
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: panic a little bit, that's going, well, what did I do? No,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I swear I did it. What happened, and and that's okay. Look,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: understand that any employee can complain about anything for any reason,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: no matter how wrong or right they are. So know
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: that that can happen, and you're not in a bad
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: position if it does. The question is how do you
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: respond this particular company, And I feel for them. I
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: understand the intent. They said, we're going to diy this right,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: We're going to go research how do I respond to
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: a complaint, and then we're going to do it. The
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: problem is a lot went wrong along the way. Communication
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: to the wrong places at the wrong time. And fast
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: forward eight months later and they get a bill in
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: the mail for twenty five thousand dollars from the state,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: something that can take down their business. And again all
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: good intent, but something like that would take a quick
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: phone call to me. We sorted out in thirty minutes
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: and you never have to feel that stress again. Rights,
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: and I saw that happening. Now we're still working on that.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: We're trying to move through. There's still some work to
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: be done, but it's not going to cost twenty five
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars because that's somebody involved. We're going to take
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: the right steps to do the right things right and
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: as they weren't wrong in the first place, Yeah, did
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: the right things in the they paid correctly, that they
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: failed to communicate correctly. That's what we means.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: And that's that's huge, and that's why we have folks
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: like you, Shannon on the podcast. So I want people
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: to listen here, like, hey, find an advocate. We have
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: lots of different voices here, but you find the one
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: that works. And like Shannon is saying, you know, they
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: can help you shorten the time and and yes, you're
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: you're some upfront costs, but it's going to save you
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: a lot more in the long run. It's the same
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: thing I see with It's like we do this intentionally,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: much better off. And so you know, being aware and
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: then being proactive. Like you said, there's just these little nuances.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: And I would say from a business owner perspective to Shannon,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of more nuances. But you're
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: nowadays where people are working distributed workforce other places. I
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: was talking with an employee company who's living living more
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: because you a citizen, their husbands in the army that
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: we're living overseas. You know, there's different dynamics, like are
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: you considering all these different things that distribute to work
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: boasts where they're at you know, so if you're not
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: all in the same and that's what I find more
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: common nowadays, like how do we keep on top of
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: all those things? Right? I don't have I'm I'm trying
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: to run the business.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: At minimum. The laws are different in different states and
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: locations and countries, and you have to approach that differently.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: And then and then add to that distance which creates
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: a different level of communication connection and so if you
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: are not really good at it, there are bound to
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: be missteps where people misunderstand what you expect or they
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: perceive something differently, and one step of that can domino
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: into a lot of other challenges.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Situation where something went really well.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, please give us think God, we got Shannon on
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: our team, you.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Know, right, right, and things can go well, right, It
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: doesn't have to all be doing bloom in the HR space.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: So in this particular situation, so I do all levels
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: of what you consider a hotline or supportive services. And
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: in this case, it was really just a one off call. Right,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: They signed up, paid for a one off call, and
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: we did some consultation. And this particular company they experienced
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: an employee situation that wasn't bad, but it was suspicious, right.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: It gave them a gut something, And I'm so proud
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: of them for not just ignoring that gut. I think
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: we often do. You're like, oh, something's vibing not right
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: with that, But when we just kind of push it
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: away because I go, oh, people are good, and they
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: are and also some aren't. So in this case, they
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: had a weird vibe and we got in a call
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  Speaker 2: and they just said, look, I don't know what it is.
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  Speaker 2: This person started. We've had a couple of weeks and
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: they haven't said anything to us, but to other employe
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: they've been saying things like, well, at my last employer,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: I got some people fired because they didn't know what
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: they were doing. Or I had a manager who thought
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: that they could take advantage of me and they couldn't.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting. So again they haven't done anything wrong,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: but they're getting a vibe that wait a minute, this
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: person is really looking perhaps for us to misstep. And
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: we talked through it, came up with a documentation and
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: communication strategy and the best you can because again employees
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: can complain for whatever reason, right or wrong, you have
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: to be prepared for it. So we have a strategy
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: in place. All is good. I don't talk to them
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: two months later, and that's how quickly these things can escalate.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Two months later they call and they say, you would
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: not believe. Not only did that escalate significantly where she
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: was creating a lot of tension and maybe some maybe
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: some actual aggression between employee, but she was going to
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: different leaders and telling different stories in order to maybe
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: confuse us a little bit. It's a little extreme, wight
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: not but people do this right but because they were
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: on top of it, and because they had everybody document
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: each and every piece. When that person went to the
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: federal government to complain and they got their EEOC complaint
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: as you will do, as you will receive, they had
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: every piece of documentation. Boom. Took them twenty minutes to
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: complete it and they won.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Just and it has everything to do with preparation and.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Not having to Yeah, well, I mean, and this again,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: why having you be aware engaged. I think that's so important. Unfortunately, Yeah,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: like you said, it's just a matter of you hire
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: an employee. It's unfortunately, I feel like this is the
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: numbers even eventually just your best efforts, and there's unfortunately
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: just people that take advantage of the situation. And I'm
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: not saying everybody does, but you know there are people
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: that do. Or there's just unforeseen things like they're like,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: how can we mitigate them as proactively as we can
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: versus getting sunk like you mentioned earlier, because it really
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: can be I've been in those situations where you know,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: if you're not prepared or having somebody like yourself, Shannon,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: it can just be a time suck away from the business.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: All this effort that we like you said, we got
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: done in twenty minutes, fantastic. You weren't prepared for that.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: You're spending hours and trying to go through all this
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: stuff and getting it documented and so having you on board,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: you know, is I feel like so important to somebody
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: like yourself? And again I think it's important for we're
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: talking to small business owners. Maybe you don't need a
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: full like you said director, like what is that? And
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: finding somebody like yourself channel like meeting them where they're at.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: How do you tell me a little bit about how
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: do you assess a company and advise them, like what
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: do they really need? Where they're at in the business
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: five five employees, so maybe they're fifty employees or what
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: maybe they're you know what the type of business right
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: because you have a lot of background there, So how
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: do you evaluate from help a business owners determine what
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: do they need?
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: We start with the foundations of understanding your legal compliance
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: and expected thresholds. And it's not just going where am
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: I now? It's looking at where am I now and
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: where do I think I will be in the next
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: one to two years, so we can identify when do
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: you need to step it up? A notch with some
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: sort of an effort. Once we've got the foundations, then
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: we'll go back to your values. What kind of employer
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: do you want to be, and then we can talk
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: about what you prioritize first in order to be that
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: type of employer. And I think what makes my approach
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: sometimes different than others approaches is that I'm going to
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: give you all of the options you get to choose.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: You know, am I going to take the premium option
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: or am I going to take my low cost option
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: and just get done what I need to? And you
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: can have any of them. It's your business, but you
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: want to know what you're walking yourself into instead of
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: just letting it happen to you.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I I think it's you're giving people some
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: options and you're saying, you know, you have to evaluate
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: risk and exposure and what is it that you're trying
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: to create. I love that you brought up values too.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: I was just talking with a client about this yesterday.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: I said, do you guys have stated values somewhere? Well,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: it's kind of somewhere here, but it's it's not totally clear.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: And as I was talking to another employee and they
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: were complaining, not asking even about an employee, butut another subcontractor.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: And I said, well, I understand you're complaining about the
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: subcontractor maybe not acting professionally, but like, what where are
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: even just your base values? Like are they clear? Because
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: if you're not, then it's clearly hard to say, well
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: you're out of alignment because they're like, well, what's the
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: basis for this? Right?
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Absolutely? And I will tell you. And one of my
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: favorite conversations is we'll look at your values and then
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: we'll go is that what you really want? When you're
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: out in a meeting and you're upset about someone's behavior
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: or you see something going wrong, are you looking at
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: something that actually just to your values or maybe we
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: need to shift those values to the things that are
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: frustrating you every day or that are actually preventing you
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: from success in your business.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think that's great, Shannon, because what would
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: you say too? I mean, I've done and I've been
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: done through enough HR handbooks and other things like that,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: and it's one of those things where, at least in
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: my experience, I think it's kind of like a living document.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: You're looking at these things. It's not just static it's
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: evaluating this, not ticking on the shelf, but remembering to
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: look at these things and reflect at them with your
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: insights there during your experience.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: I think that's the easiest way to look at it,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: the simplest way to see. You can look at your
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: policy and know if it matches what you want to seem.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Just to give a very simple example, if you have
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: a bereavement policy or you don't have a bereavement policy,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and at the same time, you expect some help for
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: yourself if somebody were to pay in your family, or
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: you would expect that we that we operate in a
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: certain way, that we care for our employees. Care for
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: our employees doesn't mean cutting them down to the bare
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: minimum and saying and saying you can't have any time
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: at all, or I need you to prove this with
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: a death certificate. That doesn't show care. So if you
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: really do care, but your HR team or someone who
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: you had do a handbook put a policy in there
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: that doesn't support that, that's all we got to rectify.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, that's really important because so there is
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: like you said, there is a process or there's a procedure,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: but then you're looking in that that is not in
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: alignment with other aspects business. And this is probably where
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: you're getting to do it your why maybe they just
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: grab something. I mean great, I love technology, catchyp or
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: AI is cool, interesting, but without context or being able
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: to be really clear, like you're saying, you might put
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: something in there that's not really congruent with what we
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: want in the business.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and the same goes for performance a lot sometimes,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: especially in a manufacturing or another type of hourly situation.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: You are telling them I want quality, right, I want
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: quality and I want production, and I want these things
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: to happen. But quality is our most important. But then
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: you spend fifty percent of your performance time on attendance.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: We're not sending the right message here, right, And if
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: attendance matters to you, how is attendance affecting affecting quality?
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: That's the conversation you have, not why were you two
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: minutes late clocking in?
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm hmm.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: We've got to have conversations that actually align with the
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: goals we want.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: To achieve, right, right, And I think I would imagine
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: as you're working with companies and you get bigger, there's
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: these values that are held maybe by the founder of
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the initial folks. But as you get bigger, that kind
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: of gets diffused. My experience doesn't get there, just gets
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: just disconnected. Is that what you do? You see that?
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Or distorted?
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Distorted because no matter too, no one is going to
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: feel the same way the founder is. They're not going
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: to have the same commitment or the same interpretation of
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: the words you use. It's really important to you as
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: an owner or a founder. You have to put effort
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: into translating what's in your head and what's in your heart.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Two people understand what behaviors they need to exhibit to
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: make that happen, and then you have to teach them
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: to do the same.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Next down the line, right, well, and I think, so
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: what I hear you saying, Shannon is coming in as
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: an HR as you're looking at that, and you're like, almost,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: I say, we had a translator with taking that and
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: making sure that it's actually written down, processes, systems, like
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: you said, actually taking out of your head. And I've
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: I've worked with companies around for years, but it's like,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: is this clearly documented? Well no, because this ex wife
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: person just does it and they've always done it, Like
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: that's kind of a problem like what happens if that
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: person goes away? It's how did you come up with us?
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Understand that.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Because that happens in almost every and almost every small company.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: As you're growing, right, you have this one person who
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: is amazing and they take on everything right, which is
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: really great when you start, but processes get built and
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: there might be short sighted and then pay doesn't quite
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: coincide with all of the doing everything situation right. It
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: creates burnout you have, and then you start having these
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: hidden lost costs of eventually having to replace the glue
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: that put them all together because they got so burnt
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: out and left, and not to mention trying to figure
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: out whatever enigma their workflows created that you never knew
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: of that. And some of you out there, I'm sure
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: you're saying, no, no, my glue person, they would never leave,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: they would never do it. But I'm gonna be honest,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't call that lucky if you will, because after
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: a time, that cheerful willingness to do everything becomes a
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: biggrudging complaint that they do everything, and that's the kind
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: of energy that spreads to the whole team and one
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: rotting apple spoiling the bunch is really applicable in that
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: kind of situation. Most of my work has been recovering
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: teams and workflow effectiveness after a situation.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Just like that. Oh wow, sham No, I've seen it.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: It's like you said, very much as a person that's
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: been there, and I have to say, it's unfortunate because
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I sometimes I feel like, where I've seen this, I'd
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: love to get ear feedback on this. So if you
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: find somebody in the business that their whole identity and
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: this is something I work on, it like is kind
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: of their position of their work, and they really I
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: almost one dimensional, and so if you took away their work,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: that their sense of identity, self worth, understanding really diminishes.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: So they're holding very tightly. There can be like unhealthy
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: manipulation or territorialism and they're like, well, no, you're not
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: going to get into my space. I'm going to control
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: the information. And it's like, well how that. Then what
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: happens is I see the business has a ceiling. They
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: cannot grow any further. Is that this person's hold they're
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: kind of a governor. They're holding it back because I
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: can't I can only hold so much, right and.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Then you're either firing them because you get fed up
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: or you're keeping them on because you're not sure what
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: else to do and you feel bad. Yeah, and all
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: that comes from not having clear plans and intention along
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: the way. Yeah, And there's no there's no price tag
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: to intention. And I realized, I realized most folks out
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: there are not going to believe it until they feel
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: the pain. But know that I have seen the pain
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: over and over and over. And if there's any way
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: to get yourself a little relief early on in the stage,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: with anyone to give you some advice or just have
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: someone to talk to, it could save you thousands.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I think that's so important, Shannon, to have somebody like
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: you that they can talk to, because I think sometimes the
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: business feel isolated or they feel I don't say we're
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: felt hostage sometimes to the people because like, Okay, they've
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: got me so so so a certain point, they really,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: I think, do care about their employees, Like, how do
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I've got myself kind of back into a corner now,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to get untangled here and and
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: and so having somebody like you come and look at
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: it and give them a different perspective, right, right.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Your top people are your are your friends that you
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: hired or you've been working with them for so long
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: they have become that or your family, and you can't
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: talk to them about them not doing what they should
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: be doing, or wanting to see a restructure in your organization,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: or wanting to see growth happen differently, right, they're not
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: always the best advisor in those cases.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, And and you know I find too if
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: you're if you've been with a company from the early
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: on and the company is growing, like you said, either
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: taking on new responsibilities or how to how to navigate
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: that in a healthy way, and having somebody like you again,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: and like, here's a cursion, here's how we can do this.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Here's how we can make sure the performance is done
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: fair and equitably, you know, because I think and and
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: make it effective. But I've talked with companies likeyay, I
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: did a performance for you. Do you feel like I
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: was meaningful? Not really? I just want to get my
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: raise or get something. I'm like, okay, well that's not
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: really nobody's benefiting here. Then we should look at this,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: like you said, what's the plan, where's the growth? What
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: do we want to do here?
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: The team, right, And let's be real about that, David.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: All those things that you just talked about sound terrible.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: No one. When I'm running a business, I don't want
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: to spend the time doing that. It feels like such
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: a hurdle and and maybe even a waste of time
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: because I don't see the end result. So in those cases,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: trust me, you need something, but you don't have to
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: do it. You can hire someone to help you do it,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: or you can hire someone to do it.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: But definitely, right absolutely, I mean, if we're not being
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: intentional about this, you know, it will eventually break down
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: at some point, like you said, and we don't want
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: to get the letter. We don't want to get the
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: unexpected you know, person just leaving suing you. You know,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: And I found unfortunately, especially in today's world and from
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: an NHR, I love your gay perspective to this. You know,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: there's online platforms last or indeed whatever we other ones
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: where people will leave comments and reviews, and it's it's
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: hard to if you're not being proactive because you know,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I look at this on the people side of things,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: because just like people use Yelp or use other businesses,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: but you're getting comments you're getting feedback, so you better.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: You know, people look at these things right. Talk a
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: little bit about that, Shannon.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Such an important point because we've talked a lot about
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: on the compliance side of things, and those are very
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: actually easy, black and white ways that you can manage pieces.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: But people are not going on glass door and going
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: I really didn't feel like they were very compliant. They're
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: talking about how they're talking about if the management was competent,
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: they were talking about compensation, They're talking about, you know,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: did I feel like I was a part of the
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: team and that I was doing something meaningful? And so
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: while it's very easy to say, well I only need
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: an HR person or HR help from the compliance pieces,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: it's those that create your reputation, and all of them
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: are based in communication and understanding what your employees need.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And you were a solopreneur one time, or you started
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: the business with just one or two people, and sure
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: you knew everything right, you knew what you wanted to pay,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: you knew how you wanted to hang and treat people.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: But then you doubled or tripled or more than that,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: and you start to lose touch and everyone has a
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: different experience. Do you have a handle on all of
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: those experiences.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: We have to ask ourselves that question, right.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: No, it's so important to have somebody like you, Cannon,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: And that's where you know, I love having you on
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the podcast because you know, I love working with folks
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: like in HR because I don't do all of the
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: compliance things, but work on this, like what's as you're
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: identifying things like hey, how can we support the team
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: through leadership and development and maybe holding workshops or seminars
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: and so you you're seeing where these breakdowns are. Like
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: you said, in communication relationships, the trust is not there.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, how do we build that? And so
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: I think working together with folks like you, Shannon, like holistically,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: and that's why it's so important to find a team
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: that comes to support you and I like personally, even
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: if you're a bigger company, it's great to have an
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: outside perspective of like this is what you're seeing. Like
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: you said, you've worked in so many different industries, different firms.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: It's just giving you a different perspective and seeing things
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: that you might not have thought of or like we
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: just all we all have blind spots, right.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: That's right, and that's why I like to work with
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: folks that are in that in the leadership development area
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: like you, because inevitably I'm going to find a gap
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: in leadership that is creating more of the problems than web.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: And you've always got to have something to back up on. Sure,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I'll put all these processes in place, but if we
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: don't have leaders that get it or that care about
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: it in the same way that your owners and founders do, yep,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: very difficult to move forward and absolutely together.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know we're getting close to
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: the end of the podcast. But you know, I'm fun.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: This is fun. We're gonna have you come back because
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: there's other elements that we want to get in here.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: But you know, I'm hoping that people are hearing, like, Okay,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: whether it's you know, five employees or fifty whatever, you're
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: at having somebody and talking with somebody like Shannon, just
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: to get an outside perspective we addressing things. Let's open up,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: let's open up things, let's look at it, you know,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: and then like you said, Shannon, then you're saying, okay, well,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: based on where you're at and you're evaluating them and
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: say here's some of the different options, and I think
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: that's great. It's not a one size fits all approach.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: And so I'm going to make sure Shannon, We're gonna
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: have all of your contact information. Shannon and I are
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: connected on LinkedIn too, so you guys can come there
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: or or visit one of our Assessed Champions network. Shannon
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: is actually the president of a chapter, and so come
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: come check out Success Champion Network and meet with some
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: other business owners there too. So but before we wrap up, Shann,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: I want you to just get I want to give
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: you an opportunity just to you know, maybe some key
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: takeaway our thoughts as folks are listening and hearing these
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: things like, Hey, if you take nothing else from this
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: conversation today, this is what I want you to walk
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: away with. Shannon.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I would say, do right by the future of your
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: business and the love you have for it and where
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: you want to see it grow by taking some time
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: to think what matters to me and then and once
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: you see that, think about what what do I need
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: to have and what's nice to have? And right now
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: do I have all the skills on my team to
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: make that happen? And if not, and it's important to you,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: you have a space, you have places to go to
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: add those skills to me.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you Shannon for being here. You're an amazing guest.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: We love having your insights. The HI doesn't suck. It
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: really actually helped you and at the end of the
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: day you're going to be better off. I know sometimes
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: it feels like that, but Shannon, you're wonderful having you here.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. It's been so much fun.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Can't wait. Yeah, absolutely, thanks everybody. Of course, we love
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: it when you subscribe, leave a comment, make sure Shannon
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: gets that. Share this with others and maybe as you're
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: listening to this and the colleagues like I don't know
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: about this HR stuff, Hey, well wait, listen to this
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: podcast Channon was on. Learned a little bit more about it.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you all being a part of this podcast
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: and until next time, take care everybody. Thanks for listening.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: M hm h m hm.