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Transcript

Sunset Boulevard · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zephy and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Mister Jamie, I'm ready for my close up.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Bad news. You're under arrest. No nor acab includes particularly
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the cops that arrested Norma Desmond. She did nothing wrong.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: All she did was have a dream.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Murdering a male screenwriter is not against the law.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Brutal, brutal. I feel like the movie does feel that
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: way a little bit, but maybe I'm just prigeting. Welcome
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: to the Bechdel Cast. We are washed up podcast stars.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: They're oh god, you know, really, is it like the
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: second you turned thirty that you're like, oh, Norma does
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: but you know, bushy wrong.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: She's got some interesting ID you know, maybe she's onto something.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Maybe I should live with a little chimpanzee at my
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: house and would that be so bad? Oh?
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I felt so bad for that really weird looking chimp.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the prop department was doing, but.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: It was like, what, Okay, I'm not even gonna say it,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: there's something Nope, never mind, Okay, Yeah, I'm washed Up
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Podcast star Jamie Loftus.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: And I'm Washed Up Podcast star Caitlin Dernte And this
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: is our washed Up podcast. Hell yeah, where we examine
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: as a jumping off point.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, this movie has a fun pass there. Yeah, what
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: just happened to my brain? Holy shit? Happy New Year? Yes,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: and here's what the Bechdel test. We're too washed up
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: to even talk. Oh my god, so sorry. Our brains
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: are just so old and decaying that we don't even know.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: We think we're on the set of soloam or whatever?
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Can you keeps spacing out in the middle of this
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: recording and being like solo where what? Anyways? Sorry, our
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: feeble little brains aren't working. The Bechdel Test is a
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: media metric originally created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel with
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: her friend Liz Wallace, which is why it's often called
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: the Bechdel Wallace Test. It was originally created just as
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: a one off joke in her excellent comic Dikes to
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Watch Out For, as a way of drawing attention to
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: how little queer representation there was and how infrequently women
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: spoke to each other. Lots of versions of the test.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Our version is this, we require that a character of
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: a marginalized gender with a name speak to another character
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: of a marginalized gender with a name about something other
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: than a man, for two lines of dialogue. Most movies
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: don't do it. Past present, and I'll say it future.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: I don't think we moved the needle very much, but
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: that's okay. And today we are discussing a movie that
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: has been on our request list forever and one that
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: just felt like it would be fun because it features
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: the most depressing New Year's Party ever committed to film, truly,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: And we just hit the New Year, and so it's
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: high time we cover Sunset Bulevard nineteen fifty directed by
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Billy wild At. That's so true. Who is German not Australian? Yeah? Wait,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: huge news. Caitlin and I were talking to an Australian
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: guy the other night at a New Year's party that
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: was not depressing. It was very fun. It was very fun,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: and he complimented your Australian accent.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: He did and did. I felt so honored.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: It was truly like, in the seven years we've been
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: doing this, the first time we've received active encouragement from
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: an authority and it felt really good. Yeah, so thank
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: you Trint for for the compliments that did not pass
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: the Bechdel test. So hope you're taking notes, Hope you're
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: keeping up correct.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: You know what is going to pass the Bechdel test though,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: is when we take a little detour to plug the
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: tour that we have coming up.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, it will totally pass the Bechdel test because a
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: tour is famously genderless.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: And it's about Barbie, the Barbie Movie.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: I'm really excited. I just don't have a bone of
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: hate in my body for the Barbie Movie, except for
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: the few that we'll talk about at the show. Yeah,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: we were touring five cities coming up at the beginning
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: of February. We are covering the Barbie Movie in every city.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: February first, we'll be at SF Sketch Fest in San Francisco.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: February second will be going over to Sacramento. Oh, Greta
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Gerwig vibes much everything about that Lady Bird. Our Barbie
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: show there is sold out, but we still have tickets
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: available to our second show, which is about the Wolf
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: of Wall Street, which is like basically the same movie
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: on same experience. You'll be fine, too much. Bring the luds, yes, yeah.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Then after that we are heading to Texas and doing
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: a show in Dallas on February third, a show in
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Austin on February fifth, and then we are circling back
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: around to southern California and doing a show in San
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Diego on February tenth, recovering Barbie at all of those shows,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: and tickets are still available, although they're going fast, so yes,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: make sure you grab your tickets, which you can do
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: at Link Tree Slash Bechtel Cast. And you're gonna want
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: to see us live because here's the thing we put
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: on a show. It's a spectacle. Okay. We are ready
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: for our close up at these live shows, you know
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: we are. Certainly we wear outfits, we do slide shows
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: if we have time, we do audience Q and.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: A sound really exciting. We wear close and there's we
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: played games, we've sung, we've danced. We really put on.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: The eat sometimes on stage.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: We do didn't have to be fed. It's kind of like,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: you know, a crossover between like a fetish video and
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: a sexy college lecture, so so coming down and then
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: we always we have tour exclusive merch and then we
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: do meet in greats afterwards. So yeah, it's it's always
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: a fun time and we hope to see you there. Indeed,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: don't believe we could have a fun time talking about
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: a movie. Well, listen to this, Caitlyn, what's your experience
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: with the movie Sunset Boulevard.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: So I saw it for the first time either late
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: in high school or early college. I would have been
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: like seventeen eighteen something like that. I knew that it
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: was a very culturally significant movie, you know, one of
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: the greats from the classic Hollywood era. So it's been
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: on my radar for a very long time. And yeah,
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: I watched it once then probably once again for like
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: a film school assignment, and then maybe even a second
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: time for a film school assignment when I did go
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: and get my master's degree in screenwriting at Boston University,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: a fact that I never mention, and you know who
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: probably doesn't have a master's in screenwriting from Boston University
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: is Joe Gillis.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was like, whoa, why are we yelling at me? Yeah,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: it's true, it's true, and that's why he's such a
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: failure exactly, and maybe that's why he died. It makes
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: you think, Yeah, I have a similar experience with this movie.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: I hadn't seen it in a bit, but I would
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: consider it in sort of my top tier of movies.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: I've seen it many times. I saw it for the
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: first time, I think in college first just for fun
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: or like the film program, like we've discussed like, oh,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I have to watch this movie because like this movie
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: is I think, like fantastic, and it's also heavily assigned.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: I've like a lot of people watch this movie for school,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: and maybe more people should watch it for fun because
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: it's fun to watch. But yeah, I think I've mentioned
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: this in the show in past years. I took this
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: class in college that not only aged tremendously poorly, but
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: at the time students were like what the fuck. I
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: had a class called Wilder, Allan and Kaufman, and I
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: took heavy objection to it exactly one of those directors.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to. I wanted to study the other
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: two and not the middle one. Blah blah blah. It
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: was like twenty thirteen, and they were like, shut up. Anyways,
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: I quite enjoyed the Wilder portions of that class, in
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: the Kaffman portions, but for the sake of this conversation,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I sort of became a proper Billy Wilder fan through
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: taking that class. I think he's a really fascinating person, complicated,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: certainly imperfect, but like I really like his work. And
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is my favorite Billy Wilder movie.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: But I mean it is like kind of not to
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: like start the episode out by like handing it to
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: a man, but I really really like, I mean, the
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: amount of incredibly influential movies that he turned out in
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: this course of his career is absolutely I'll say it
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: is Wilder. Wow.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, You've got Double Indemnity, which we have covered
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: a couple of years ago on the show with Anita Sarkisian.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: We have not covered, but other very notable movies of
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: his include The Seven Year Itch, The Apartment, and Some
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Like It Hot, which is probably my favorite Wilder movie.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, like it's almost like a three way time
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: between ugh, because we were also talking about covering The
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Apartment this week, because it's also like a holiday time movie.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: It might be a tie between the Sunset Boulevard and
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: The Apartment for me, but some like it Hot is
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: also so great. See he also directed Sabrina like he
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: did a lot of great work. And I was trying
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: to read where I know that he had contentious relationships
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: with actors and actresses. It seemed like but I think
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: he's been through several rounds of film buff discourse of
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: is his work pro women, is his work anti women?
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: I think the answer, as with most people, is like
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle, and it depends from text to text,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: and it depends on the years coming out all this stuff.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: I love Sunset Boulevard. I love the performances in it,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: and I really I mean, I hadn't watched it, I
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: want to say, for maybe like three or four years,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: and there's so much to talk about. But I think
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: as it's probably my favorite movie about movies. It's a
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: good one. Yeah, And I feel like it still has
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: a lot to say in a way that feels like
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: kind of depressingly not dated. This movie is over seventy
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: years old, and it still feels like what it's saying
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: is still very relevant to how the movie and just works,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: but also very specific to the silent era and like,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk about the context of this
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: movie because Norma Dusmond is such a complex character that
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I feel like you can view a million ways, some
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: of which are we'll talk about all one million. I
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: just have like such, I can't imagine being Glorious Swanson
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: and having like this experience and then being like, here's
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: the character, and then not just being like, Okay, I
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: can compartmentalize my entire life and career and play this
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: caricature of an actor and while watching my movies that
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: were directed by.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Marriage and whatever, yeah, and.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: That movie was directed by him, and like compartmentalize it
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: and not just be able to compartmentalize it, but like
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: deliver such an iconic performance that like is so stripped
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: of artifice, and like it's just and I have issues
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: with that in some but I just like, I don't know,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: I can't watch this movie and not be like, oh
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: my god, I don't know if I could even consider
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: doing something that would require compartmentalizing your ego to that extent.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: It's unbelievable, I know, right Well, shall we get into
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: it with the recap.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Let's do it.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come back.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: And where we're back.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: All right, So here's the recap of Sunset Boulevard. But
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: before that'll place a content warning for suicide as well
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: as emotional abuse in a partnership.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: If you're triggered by a character named hog Eye. Hog Eye,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: I have so many questions about Haguy? What was going on?
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: How Guy? There are a few lines in this movie
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: that are obviously, like, very famous, whether you've seen the
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: movie or not. But hello, haw Guy. You're like, whoa,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: that's the greatest line rate I've ever heard.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Because it's also not clear because he identifies himself if
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: she remembers so yeah, he says, Hey, it's me, how Guy,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: and then she responds hello guy, but it's we don't
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: know if she recognizes him and knows him or if
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: she's just like being like.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess she does, so I'm gonna guess she's
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: actively listening. But just like the way she greets ha
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: guy and he's so thrilled iconic, Oh my god, yeallo
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: all right EPISP.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: The movie opens on Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles, California.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I've ever heard of it? Oh, I can see it
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: from my freaking house. Oh my gosh, I can't wait
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: to die in a pool. Okay, So the police are
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: heading to a huge mansion on Sunset Boulevard to investigate
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: a homicide because the body of a man was found
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: floating in the pool of a movie star. Yes, I
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: feel like you know, narration is so often like overused
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: or like as a lazy tool, but it rocks in
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: this movie. And there's also that sort of moment where
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: like Joe the William Holton character, as like, this isn't
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: a famous thing to say yet, but he's like, you're
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: kind of wondering how I got here. Huh, well, it's
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: kind of a weird story.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: We go take it back, like, let's flash back to
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: six months earlier where we meet and we get voiceover
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: narration from a struggling screenwriter who, again I can only
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: assume is struggling because he doesn't have a master's degree
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: in screenwriting.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: It's so yeah watching this, I mean, just like individually,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: you're just like, wow, I don't like that I can
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: relate with Joe and Norman No Bad and Betty like,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: oh I know, it's almost like it's a really good movie.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, Wow, Okay, So This screenwriter is Joe Gillis played
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: by William Holden, and some men show up at his
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: apartment to try to repossess his car because he's several
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: months behind on payments. He needs some quick cash. He
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: mentions two hundred and ninety dollars, which is nearly four
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars in today's money. Bad and that situation, yes,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: So he's trying to go around town and borrow money
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: from friends.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: No luck.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: He also goes to Paramount to pitch a story idea,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: hoping that he can sell a script, but the producer
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: isn't interested because a script reader named Betty played by
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Nancy Olsen is like, yeah, I read that script and
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: it sucked.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: So I honestly it's like, you have such Betty, I
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: kept writing down Caitlyn vibes when he's like, what do
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: you think?
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: She would just be like nu, it's a trite and boring.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then they meet up again later and you're like, oh,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: she's good, but she's just as hard. She's just like, no,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: it's bad. I still don't like it.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: But then she's also like, but I've heard your talented
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: and I can see your potential, so let's collaborate and.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Right, which is like at least grounded in the fact
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: that she's seen work of his that she liked, but
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: like none of the work of his that she liked
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: has ever been produced, which does feel true to far. Yeah,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: I really like that exchange between them where she's like,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I heard you had talent and he's like, not this year.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to work this year. I'm like, damn me too,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: me too.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Man relatable. Yeah, Okay. So Joe leaves and while he's
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: driving down Sunset Boulevard, he spots the guys who are
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: trying to repoe his car, so he speeds away and
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: ends up in the driveway of what appears to be
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: an abandoned mansion, and he hides his car in the
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: empty garage. His plan is basically to skip town, take
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: a bus back to Ohio, and kind of just like
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: give up on the Hollywood life. But as he's there
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: examining this mansion, he hears a woman's voice and it
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: turns out the house has not been abandoned. Then a
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: butler named Max played by Eric von Stroheim, who, if
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: you don't know, is a prominent Silent film era director
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: who directed a movie starring Gloria Swanson, and.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Don't worry they show a clip of it. Don't screen
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: it this god.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, So anyway, Max the butler shows Joe inside and
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: the woman whose voice we heard had mistaken Joe for
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: being an undertaker who's there to remove the body of
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: a dead chin.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Pansy monkey undertaker. Yeah what, and the chimpanzee has been dead.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: I dare I say for a while, it seems like
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: so it looks dry, uh huh, yucky, it's nasty. Anyway,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: it's real meet cute. At the top, they kind of
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: do like start vibing immediately, like you know, it's fundamentally
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: an abusive relationship with this first encounter, I'm like, are
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: they vibing right now over the whole dead monkey situation?
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: But in a very it's like a very neggy Yeah
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: both ways with these two way nagging street they're weirdos,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: they're sick. So anyway, Joe is like, you got the
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: wrong guy, But wait a minute, I recognize you because
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: the woman is Norma Desmond played by Gloria Swanson, a
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: silent movie star who used to be very famous but
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: hasn't worked as an actor since talkies became popular, which
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: is something that we learn she deeply resents that you know,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: she's not working anymore, and.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: That she hasn't completely accepted that she is no longer
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: a big current start, and also that she struggles to
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: accept the fact that she's aging and accept her own
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: mortality because of how older women are treated in Hollywood,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: which I feel like this is one of the few
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: movies of this era that like, well, we'll get into it,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: but like it's at least suggested and clear that there
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: is a systemic reason that she's trained to see herself.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: It's all over the place, but like, I feel like
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: it's clearer than you know, normally you see a woman
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: over forty much less fifty that the call is coming
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: from inside the house, and this is just something that
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: happens at least this movie, I think. Does a lot
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: of current movies do to contextualize it. Yeah, true, but
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: it doesn't free her from you know, the troupes, all
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: that stuff. It's so we're covering well, yeah, I guess
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: this will come out in sequential order. We're covering May
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: December coming up next week, and I know it's just
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: because we've been sort of preparing for these episodes beside
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: each other. But there are these like interesting parallels between
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: you know, just like an older woman and by old,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: you know a woman over fifty, right, yeah, whose whole
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: life has been constructed to protect her from reality, amongst
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: other things. But it was just interesting watching those movies
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: side by side and being like, oh, obviously I know
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: that Todd Haynes has seen Sunset Boulevard, but there is
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: like just the haunted house feel to it for sure. Yeah.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was also getting some misery parallels. Sure, yeah,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: a movie we covered some time years ago. Yeah, And
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: I was like, wow, I bet Stephen King watched.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like, oh, I love having the genius thought
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: that maybe a famous director has seen one of the
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: most famous movies ever, Like could it be? Are you anyway?
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: So Joe recognizes Norma Desmond and she's like, oh, wait
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: a minute, you're a writer. Well, I wrote a story
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: about Slome that I want Cecil B. Demill to direct,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: and she wants Joe to read her very long, handwritten script.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: It's got Santi University vibes. I was like, wow, literally,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Norma Desmond wrote her Santi University. And also she's like,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: and no one will produce it.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: It's six hundred pages.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Yep. She won't take.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Notes, certainly not, And so Joe starts reading it and
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: it turns out to be like poorly written, melodramatic drivel.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: But Joe realizes that he can try to squeeze some
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: money out of Norma if he offers to rewrite the script. Yeah,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: and she's like, well, you're Sagittarius, so I can trust
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: you again.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: It's like, no, No, that's the worst reasoning I've ever heard.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: There's another scene later on where she's talking about, like
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: today is the exact right day to drop off the
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: script to Cecil b de Mill because of like the
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: alignments of the planets and how she's a blah blah
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: blah and he's a leah or whatever.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Like she's like, la women are going to LA women.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what decade it is, exactly the position
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: of the stars is what is going to make or
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: break their flopping career, you know, sure, yeah yeah, And
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: also like we don't even need to ascribe a gender
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: to it. That's just simply what it's like out here
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: in general. It's true. And if you live in La
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: and you think you're immune to it, you just haven't
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: lived here long enough. I don't think.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I quite recently was like, okay, fine, I'll finally figure
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: out what my like rising and moon signs are.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, wait, you should get a chart reading from
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: my friend Cameron. Shout out Cameron Farmer's chart. My boyfriend
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: just got his chart read by them, because he also
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: was like, okay, you win, La, you win. I will
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: find out about the start I know.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: And then also a few years ago, I bought crystals.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: I went to House of Intuition, I remember, and I
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: bought crystals because I was like, these are gonna change
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: my life and did they certainly not.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: But they're pretty A bunch of people just threw their
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: phone in across the They're just like god, damn it.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: They're all like this. It's kind of true, but like,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: you know, victimist crime unless you get into like a
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: wellness called don't do it. Don't do that, just don't
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: do that, just don't Yeah exactly. Anyways, Norma Desmond not immune.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: I was just it was funny to be like, oh wow,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifty and yeah, yeah, it's just always been like that.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't realize it, but it's true. Good for
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: her Okay, So Norma has Joe read the rest of
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: her script. She makes him stay the night to finish
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: reading it because she won't let the script leave her house.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: She sets up a room for him and he's like, Okay,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: this is fucking weird, but whatever, I need money.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Then he wakes up to discover that Norma had her butler, Max,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: bring all of Joe's stuff to her home. Basically, she
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: wants him to move in while he's working on her script,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: and he's upset and freaked out, but he decides to
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: get to work and get it over with as quickly
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: as possible. But Norma is like hovering over him. She's
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: being very controlling, and it's also clear, like you previously
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: mentioned Jamie, that she's like she's been very sheltered. She's
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: perhaps delusional. She's also very egotistical.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: And there's a big twist that like triple validates this
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: late in the moon, but like, it still feels very
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: like Max is like her protector. It's how I think
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: of my eldest cat, Flee. Flee has Max vibes where
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: he's like, don't disturb her, she's working.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: But yeah, she she's very like self absorbed She's always
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: responding to fan mail from her adoring fans. She always
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: insists on watching her own movies, things like that the.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Fan mail thing was another May December overlap for me,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: where the Juliete more character like it's the same three
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: neighbors keeping her bakery in business to appease her, and like, yeah,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: just sort of this like privileged but contextually upsetting and
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: like fundamental, like just the bubble that you're stuck in. Granted,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: I have far more empathy for Norma, and you know
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: she knew what she had to do.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So more time passes and a dynamic starts to
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: emerge between Norma and Joe, where basically she becomes his
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: sugar mama.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Whoa, I said, I don't think I've ever heard you
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: say that phrase out loud.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: It felt so weird coming out of my mouth. I'm
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: not gonna lie. Someone clipped that, is that even the
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: term sugar mama?
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Is that any So sugar mommy, sugar mommy? I don't know.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I think sugar mommy, sugar daddy. Yeah,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: but then sugar mama is a character on the Proud Family,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: And so how do we square that we don't know.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: The bottom line is Joe is her sugar baby.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: That's definitely true. That's okay, okay, and we're back.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: And we're back, and Norma seems to be into him,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: but he at present is not into her.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: We also around this time find out that Max the
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Butler is the one who is sending all of the
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: fan mail to Norma, and so Joe is like, yikes, okay.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Then he attends Norma's New Year's Eve party, except that
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Joe is the only one who Norma invited and because
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: she's in love with him.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's like being actively predatory, creepy yeah, And
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: so he's creeped out and he leaves and goes to
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: his friends New Year's Eve party hosted by Artie, who
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: says that Joe can stay with him for a few
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: weeks because Joe's trying to get the hell out of there.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Artie really gets the short end of the stick of it.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess Joe dies, so that doesn't end
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: very well for him, but there is like a poor
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Arty later on. I'm like, already did nothing wrong except
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: ask someone to come to Arizona, which is like generally
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: do that, No offense to all of our treasure. We
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: just got so many subscriber Oh you la, people think
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: you're better than Aaron Zona. And here's why the stars
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: are on my side. Just kidding, I don't know what
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Let's get Yeah, don't listen to us anyway. Artie's girlfriend
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: is Betty, the script reader from earlier, who mentions to
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Joe that she has read another one of his scripts
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: and she's like, it does suck for the most part,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: but there's this flashback with a teacher character that has
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of potential. Yeah, so they're talking about that.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Betty's good at her job, like she's direct, but she's
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: also constructed, like the lady knows what she's doing exactly,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: and she's only twenty two. She's got a future in
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: this town. Tell me about it. Well, we'll get there.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: But it's just like, God, I mean, I guess you
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: already know that Joe dies. I'm just like, you know,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: he really would have been dead weight and her life
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: so sorry, sorry, But also like, what she gonna do
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: move to Arizona? I sure hope not. I hope she
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: was like, Hey, I just need to be single for
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: a while. I think that that's that's why she does
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: do that.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but before then she and Joe are flirting a
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: little bit, even though Artie is in the next room,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: and so.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: That's not very that's not very nice. And then also
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, she's twenty two or whatever. Yeah.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: So then Joe discovers that Norma is horribly distraught and
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: that she attempted suicide after he left her New Year's
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Eve party, so he hurries back to her house to
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: comfort her, and then they kiss, and then it fades
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: to black, which I feel implies they have sex.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: I'm on board with.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yes, So now Norma and Joe are like together.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I love what it says on scholarly journal Wikipedia that
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: maybe laughed. Joe returns to Norma and there relationship becomes
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: non platonic. Oh they fuck, They fuck? Yeah hard. I mean,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know, we don't know, we don't know.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: The production code wouldn't show it.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, the writers new, the writers do it.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: I believe Billy Wilder knew how Norma fucks, but we
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: just weren't privy to that information.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so Joe and Norma are together now. But also
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: Joe bumps into Betty again, and she is urging him
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: to work with her on this script idea, and he's like,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know, we'll see. Then the script of Norma's
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: that Joe has been rewriting is finished and it gets
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: dropped off at Paramount Studios. And then a few days later,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Norma and Joe go to Paramount to see cecil B
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: de Mille, and Norma thinks that he wants to direct
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: her movie. But it's clear to us, though not clear
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: to Norma, that Demil thinks she's a nuisance and he
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: wants nothing to do with her.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about this scene. It's a devastating scene.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: It's yeah, yeah, it's brutal, really is. And this is
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: also where our friend Hagye shows up, so we have
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: to get hello, hai guy.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: He spins a spotlight around and shines it on her,
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: and she's like, yes, this is where I meant to be.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: And you know, Hagy got an earfull from all the mail.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Probably got fired for that. God. I hope not. I
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: hope not. He's worked there for years. Katelie's I mean
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: the silent era, you can't fire Hog. I let him
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: off of the warning.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: I seriously, I know. Anyway, So, thinking that she is
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: going to star in a movie soon and make the
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: triumphant return to the screen, Norma starts getting all kinds
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: of facials and massages and beauty treatments. She starts counting
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: calories things like that.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, women are still encouraged to do today well and
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: also any actor.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: But right, yes, yeah, but especially the pressure because women
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: are so highly valued for their appearance and their youth,
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: that pressure is especially placed on women and fans. Yes, okay. Meanwhile,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Joe has been sneaking out every night to meet up
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: with Betty so that they can write this script about
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: the teachers together. And also they're vibing even though she
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: is now engaged to Artie, who is I think working
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: on a film in Arizona. Anyway, One night, Max catches
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Joe as he's returning from sneaking out, and Joe is like, Max,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: we have to put an end to this charade. What
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: happens when she finds out that there is no Demill
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: movie and Max is like, she'll never find out. I
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: was the one who made her a star and I'll
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: keep her that way. And then this is where Max
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: reveals that he directed all of her early movies, and
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: that he was Norma's first husband.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Why wild That twist never ceases to be, like, so
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: you're doing what right?
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: And I think, let me know if I have this right.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: But it seems as though they were together and then
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: she rose to stardom and then left him and he
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: couldn't handle it and he came crawling back, and then
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: she made him her servant.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Is that what happened? It seems like I would say
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: he certainly is still in love with her, yeah, and
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: also has this sort of paternalistic control over her life too,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: because it's like I hadn't ever really like thought past, like, well,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: what would Norma's life look like if Max wasn't there?
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: And I think that like he clearly thinks that she
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: would be actively suffering without him, preserving this delusion and
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: kind of keeping her trapped in this house to an
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: extent by taking you know, making sure all of her
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: needs are met. But I you know, it's like possibly
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: not like you will never know because you know she's
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: been preserved in this place. I don't know, Yeah, Like
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: the push and pull of like Norma is absolutely an
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: emotionally abusive person and like extremely manipulative sort of by
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: any means necessary, while having serious mental illness problems, will also,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: by any means necessary, keep the people she wants around
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: around her to preserve these delusions of grandeur that she has.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: But it's also like there is so much patriarchy that
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: surrounds her, right, and like.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: She has this enabler who is like playing into this delusion.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: So it's fair.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a I mean, it's it's such a good movie, yeah,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: because it's just like, yeah, the cycle of abuse is
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: present in every single character, and like you can argue
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: that the you know, Joe being straightforward with her is
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: a gift in a way, but it also is like
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: it's what gets him killed. It's it's good that this
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: will be demil sequence that leads into Max revealing that
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: like she's Grew, I'm Kevin, and you're just like, huh,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: got it. It is kind of a Grew Kevin situation.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: If there was like three hundred Maxes, it would be
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: think about.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: That, right, So Max is the Kevin le Mignon in
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: this scenario.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Dominions, He's all of the minions in one guy. If
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Drew had married one of the ominions. Anyways, it doesn't
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: quite work in any case, we make.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: This work, Okay. So we get all these like intense
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: reveals and we're like, oh my gosh. Meanwhile, Betty is
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: talking to Joe and she's like, I'm not in love
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: with my fiance Alretie and my fiance yes anymore. I'm
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: in love with you, Joe. And then they smooch on
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: the lips. And so now Joe is trying to figure
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: out a way to leave Norma. But oh no, Norma,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: unbeknownst to Joe, has found the script that he's been
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: working on with Betty. So Norma calls Betty to tell
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: her like what this situation actually is with Joe, like
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: who he lives with, how he lives, who's bankrolling his
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: life basically, and then Betty goes over to Norma's house
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: to see for herself what's going on. Also, Norma has
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: bought a revolver, and we're like, okay, checkof's gun alert.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Literally, I think that that scene with Betty is
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: so I mean, like Joe, it makes sense what Joe's doing,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: and I think that he is so overcome by like
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: shame and frustration and at least I mean one of
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: the few men in movie history baby that can correctly
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: identify when he's no good for a woman and she's
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: out of his league, and he is like, and I
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: will move to Ohio, and you're like, wow, more men
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: should do that. So like he understands that, like, even
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: though he would like this relationship with Betty actively in
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: a way that I think kind of plays on movie
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: tropes where it's like, you know, usually if you have
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: the like, no we can't, they will by the end.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: But like he at least has the presence of mind
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: to be like, this relationship with Norma is too fucked up, yeah,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: and it like speaks to like what is Norma really
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: a symbol of? But like, by extracting himself from that relationship,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: he's also extracting himself from like the Hollywood machine, right,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: and everything fucked up about it.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: And extracting himself from this cycle of abuse because he
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: has been lying to Betty and withholding all this information
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: from her, and that's so much of what's been happening
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: between like Norma and Max, and I think, right, Joe
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: realizes that he is like perpetuating that same cycle onto
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: Betty in a different way, but totally he's still very
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: much like withholding information from her. So he's like, I
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: don't I can't keep doing this. I don't want to
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: be a part of this period.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's really interesting and like speaks
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: to her naivete as like a younger character that like
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: he brings her in, tells her exactly like this is
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: the way I've been lying to you. It is tempting
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: for me to stay for these very cynical reasons, and
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: she you know, I think again it's like a little
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: bit of a play on what we expect where she
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: offers him forgiveness. You know, I could see that going
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: either way, like she's horrified by it but offers him
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: a fresh start essentially, but again he rejects it. He's like, no,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: I can't you know, because yeah, I think you're totally right,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: like him, staying with Betty first of all, will absolutely
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: make her life worse and also will keep him in
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: this Hollywood cycle of abuse. And it's like, I feel
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: like we're led to believe weirdly that like Betty is
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: maybe it's not even you know, fast forward thirty years,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Betty is likely extremely jaded as well, because that's just
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: what happens yeah, but that like it seems like she
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: for reasons that it's like you know, aligning like youth
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: and beauty with like they'll be fine. But I think
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: that it's like set up that she is better suited
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: to this life because she's like it's a generational thing
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: with her family and she's had this experience with acting
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: and leaving acting, and like she has the healthiest attitude
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: about Hollywood out of anyone, And I think it's because
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: she's from there and like her parents do behind the
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: scenes work, so it's like the less ego driven positions
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: that are are sort of better suited to understand this
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: is just how it goes if you work in this shitty,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: garbage industry. So I don't know, I sort of went
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: into this viewing being like, uh, how do I feel
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: about Betty? Is she an underwritten character? But like, I
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: don't know. Coming out of it, I was like, I'm
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: never going to argue with more, but I feel like
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: it's really clear where she's coming from, and like not
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: that she is like higher functioning in this industry and
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: like and it has a healthier attitude and avoid like
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: it does make sense to me why she's kind of
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: letting things roll off her shoulders but still works hard
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: kind of vibe.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I'm excited to talk about her more
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: just because of her attitude toward the film industry and
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: just kind of how that informs different things about her character.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's all very fascinating anyway. So Okay, Betty
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: is there at the house. Now. She's trying to encourage
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Joe to like run away with her and like escape
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: this scenario and leave, and he's like, no, I've got
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: a decent setup here. So Betty runs off heartbroken, but
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Joe decides it is time for him to leave and
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: actually like go through with moving back to Ohio and
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: just getting out of Hollywood in general. So he starts
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: packing his belongings and Norma's like, what are you doing?
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Why are you leaving me? And he's like, wake up, Norma,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: there is no Demil movie. The fan mail you get
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: is fake and you're not a star anymore. And that's okay,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: but you gotta face Fax. And then he goes to leave,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: but Norma shoots him and he collapses in the pool dead.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Great gas by vibes good for him, yes, So.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Then after this, Norma goes into a kind of like
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: fugue state where she completely disassociates and she's ignoring the
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: cops and the press who are there interrogating her until
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: the newsreel guys show up with cameras and she's like, cameras, well, okay,
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: And then she slowly heads down the stairs, thinking that
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: she's like in the middle of a scene, that she's
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: like back at the studio, that she has made her
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: triumphant return. And this is where we get the famous
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: line from the movie, one of the famous lines from
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: the movie, often misquoted, mister demil, I'm ready for my
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: close up. And that's how the movie ends. So let's
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: take a quick break and we will come back to discuss,
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: and we're back.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: We're back. Yeah. Part of what I find fascinating about
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: the ending of that movie, just like reckoning back to
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: other movies we've covered and like that takes place in
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: the same sort of span of years, is that the
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: ghost of Joe who's telling us this story, clearly thinks
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: that Norma's life is you know, He's like, well, I
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: don't know what happens to her. She probably won't serve
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of prison time because she's so famous but like,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: essentially his ghost is like she's fucked. But I'm like
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: kind of worked out for the ladies in Chicago who
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: were trying to pivot from Vaudeville into being Moidera's So
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I feel like, baby, she's got another act in her
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: could be ded. He just named Richard Gear to be
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: your lawyer, and you can really make things work. That's
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: how I feel. I wouldn't count Norma out, I wouldn't
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: counter out. Oh yeah, is that a good thing? I
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: don't know. Okay, where shall we begin? Oh boy, let's see.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: I mean I want to do a little context for
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: this movie, because it is like the context of it
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: is very important. Yeah, so this is, you know, as
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: we've already talked about a Billy Wilds a movie. He
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: was born in nineteen oh six. He's a Jewish director.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: He was born in Austria, Hungary, which either way, yeah,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: he ultimately moved to America and began working in films.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I believe that he did do some work in the
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: silent era, but mostly worked in the talkies, which exists
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: to this day. What in any case, this movie, it
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: was extremely polarizing and sort of disliked in Hollywood. Communities.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: When it came out, it prompted Louis Bymyriage to say
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: something very xenophobic to Billy Wilder. He said, you've disgraced
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: the industry that made and fed you. You should be
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: tarred and feathered and run out of Hollywood. And he
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: kept going, oh, he like said get out of the country,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: essentially implied that he should go back to Germany, which
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: to say that to a Jewish director in nineteen fifty
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: is unfucking believable, and like Louis by mahor notorious monster,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: but also speaks to like uh. Billy Wilder was a
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: very successful director within the studio system and within the
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: star system, and this was viewed as like, how dare
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: you bite the hand that feeds you or criticize the
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: hand that feeds you, right, which is like fuck you,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: which is exactly when Billy Wilder walked up to Louisimhor
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: and said, he said, go fuck yourself girl. He was right. Okay.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: The other thing that is, like we've already referenced, is
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: the fact that so many people, because this came out
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty, this was the time that like silent
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: film stars that did not make the crossover into sound
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: pictures were getting older and hadn't worked in a while.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: This was Gloria Swanson's first movie in like nine years
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: at the time that she had kind of switched to do.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting point in history, and like
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: the fact that this movie is as like brutal as
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: it is, it's really interesting because it's we were seeing
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: around this time and like would continue even for like
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: old Hollywood stars that did crossover into talking movies, people
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: like Betty Davis, at people like Joan Crawford, like they
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: would be pushed into television back on stage or if
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: they stated movies would often be cast you know, the
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: only way to really get a leading role would be
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: to do older woman bodyhorn, which you see, you know,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: as the years go on. Like I think whatever Happened
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: to Baby Jane is a huge example of that, where
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, if you are a woman over fifty
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: working at Hollywood and you want to work outside of
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: like the kindly mother role, what are your options? And
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: it is sort of like Norma Desmond is like the
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: best role available because at least it's self aware. But
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: like in most cases, there's a whole subgenre that still
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: exists in certain ways. There's a great video essay about
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: it from be kind Rewind that talks about whatever happened
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: to Baby Jane specifically, but basically it is like a
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: whole subgenre called hag horror that you know, just capitalizes
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: on the star power of incredible actresses when they were
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: younger and you know, allows them to be in movies
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: with the contingency that they are perpetuating the idea that
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: being an aging woman is horrific.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: It's really interesting because, like we've talked about, like Gloria Swanson,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: this is her lived experience. We are seeing, not Norma
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Desmond story, but like she, you know, was a silent
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: film star who never quite broke out as a talking
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: film actress. Before Sunset Boulevard, she went back on stage.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: She was still working. She worked, she did stuff on TV,
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: she worked on stage. You know, she wasn't rotting in
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: a house, which I think is pretty fucking insulting. Yeah,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: but her career, I think we still see this with
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: women and fems today. The types of roles she was
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: offered changed, the types of mediums she was welcomed and changed.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: And then you know, Max is played by a silent
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: film director. It's Buster Keaton is in this movie.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: Right, Demill plays himself, and Demill is often credited as
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: the director who kind of made Gloria Swanson a star.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: So there's all these really interesting parallel between Glorious Swanson
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: and the character she plays. Again, to our knowledge, Glorious
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Swanson wasn't, you know, didn't have a very warped view
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: of reality and wasn't like living in this kind of delusion.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: But no, she was like living in New York acting
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: on Broadway like she was. Okay, right, But it's still like,
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: I honestly haven't studied Demil as a person very much.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: I know that he was a notorious conservative. I know
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: that he was, you know, obviously deeply complicit in many
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: of the sins of early Hollywood, but it is I
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: think it's really kind of admirable that he was even
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: willing to be in this movie as himself, kind of
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: acknowledging the system that he was still complicit within, because
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: like that de Mill scene was shot on the set
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: of a huge movie he was directing, Like it was
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: exaggerated versions of the actual reality, where it's like he
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: still hadn't even directed, you know, the time, he hadn't
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: even directed in his is hit yet when this came out,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: And you know, as far as Glorious Swanson's career goes, that,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: like Sunset Boulevard is a huge success for her, She's
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: nominated for an Oscar. It's an unbelievable performance. But it's
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: like the question is at what cost? Like you know,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: Cecil b de mill is not asked to make these
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: huge ego compromises in order to continue working in an
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: interesting way, And yeah, that scene is like just so
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: brutal and like the way that he comes off, I
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: thought like it worked where it's like he clearly has
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: sympathy for her, but not empathy and not enough to
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: do anything about it.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Where be direct about like I actually didn't like your script,
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: and he just sort of like lets her believe what
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: she wants to believe, and he's too much of a
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: coward to like be clear about what's gonna happen, and
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: instead he's like get Gordon Cole on the phone and
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: tell him just because the reason.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: That right, he's like, someone else take care of this.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: I don't want to take care of this, right, yes, yes,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: But then also like I think he doesn't come off
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: as a complete monster. And I thought that was an
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: interesting choice too. I mean, I guess that kind of
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: makes sense where it's like that's where like it's particularly gross,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: where he has sympathy for her, he understands her predicament,
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: but he doesn't want to deal with it because he
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: does sort of defend her before she comes in the room,
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: where they're like, oh, wasn't she a fucking nightmare to
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: work with? And he was like not really, Like she
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: was great to work with at the beginning of her career,
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: she was really smart. And then you know, the more
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: famous she got, the more difficult she became to work with,
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: which also plays into stereotypes around actors, especially women, especially
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: the further back in history you go of, like being
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: characterized as being difficult could mean just being assertive and not.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: Rolling out advocating for yourself.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And so we don't really know, we don't
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: know enough about the period between you know, Norma as
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: a young woman into a woman in her fifties. But
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: he has that really good line a dozen press agents
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: working over time can do a terrible thing to the
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: human spirit, Yes, which is a great line and also
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: is like it makes set, like who but him would
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: fully understand what is happening to her, and he does
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: have the power to do something about it, as does
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: any highly influential director. You know, does her script suck?
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Certainly seems like it like offer her a part that
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: is not in this you know, it's I feel like,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: because Norma's whole world is designed to protect her from
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: rejection or change, there are all these missed opportunities for
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: potential compromise, right to get her back out into into
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: the world. And so it does feel like these paternalistic
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: men who want to appease her but don't actually want
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: to help her in any way, Like she's completely doomed.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Our girl is doing.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: And there's so many layers because like they're feeding into
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: this ego of hers that is almost bound to form
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: in a scenario like this where you're so doted on
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: and you have all these adoring fans, and especially when
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: you get famous super young, like she did. I think, yes,
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: it's mentioned that she was discovered when she was sixteen,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: so you know, she's a very young person when she
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: becomes a star.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Just like my theory. By theory holds that you become
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: frozen in maturity at the moment you become famous. Yeah,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: and so she's still acting like a kid like and
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: it is like they don't shy away from the fact
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: that her I mean, it's it's like funny the way
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: that she It's sad, but it is funny how she
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: talks to Demil where she's like, all right, I don't
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: care about budget, you figure that out, and I won't
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: work more than six hours a day, just like Norma.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Come on, we got it, okay, But like that level
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: of entitlement, Like I don't know, I kind of like
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: that the movie doesn't make her tragic in the way
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: that it's like and she's not even asking for much
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: like she is asking for a lot. She's a diva.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: She's not being reasonable. Yeah, she is a diva, but
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: that doesn't justify the way that she's treated, and it
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: also doesn't justify the way she treats people like. It's
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: just extremely messy. I think what I've seen talked about
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: with Norma a lot over the years, which I do
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: agree with, but it's like, because it's such a complicated movie,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: I don't think that there's any like simple way to
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: be prescriptive about her. But there are like we've sort
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: of been hinting at there is the tropes around older
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: women are fully present. We see characters like this all
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: the time, even now. The idea of like this is
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: a woman who has not accept did that she's aging.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: And what I think this movie does well, even though
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: I think it is way over the top and like
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: the Norma character is more a symbol of how a
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: whole generation of actresses were treated and discarded, as opposed
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: to like an actual experience that happened to anyone. My
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: favorite quote about this was from a former Silent actor
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: named May Murray who saw the movie and said, none
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: of us floozies. Was that nuts? Just a very old
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: Hollywood way to say that. But so obviously it's not
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: even reflective of Glorious Swanson's experience. It's an exaggerated version
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: of how women are discarded. And I think that what
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: works about Normous Character is that you get the full context.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: I think with other older women, it's just presented that
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: this is how older women are, not this is how
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: the world treats older one right, right.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: That's the thing with this movie that I think makes
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: it so great, which is that a lesser movie would say, yeah,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: this is just how older women behave Why doesn't matter
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: the way that you know, women are conditioned to feel
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: about themselves as they age.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: What's that? Never heard of it? You know not?
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: But this movie Okay, so it presents a woman who
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: is quote unquote past her prime and who is characterized
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: as being delusional. She's controlling, she's very conceited and self obsessed.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: But there's also this component of, like we said, she
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: came out of this like system where like which is
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: fundamentally abusive, super abusive, so focused on image, and so
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: heavily values youth in a special women it does tend
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: to chew people up and spit them out, and again,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: especially women as they age. This is clearly what had
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: happened to Norma. And again, like we mentioned, there's the
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: component of she became a star when she was super young.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: She like you know, came into all this money. It
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: seems like she invested in oil boo and real estate.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Oil boo, which is like, I mean, that's some rich
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: lady shit like. And I also think that it is
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: a good choice that she still has money because it's like, yeah,
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: that it's not like she's down on her luck in
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: the financial sense, But it's like all of the loneliness
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: and like isolation in her life is fueled by feeling
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: discarded and and it feels like whatever underlying mental health
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: issues she may have had when she was very famous
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: are so exacerbated by the predicament that she's in. And
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: also I think, yeah, like you were saying enabled, however
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: well intentioned, you know, you could debate all day, but
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: by people like Max who are like actively preventing her
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: from trying to live life a different way because of
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: how he is enabling her current lifestyle that is killing her.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: It's like, I it's upsetting to hear the repeated attempts
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: to take her own life and that like this has
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: happened before, but there are no changes made to her life.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: And certainly so it's like Max is a really difficult
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: character for me because I like he doesn't have her
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: best interests at heart, at least in a long term sense.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Like maybe in the short term it's more comfortable for
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: her to believe these things, but it's clear that like
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know, and it's painful to see Norma seeking
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: out this validation from people where it's you know, I
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: don't believe that she loves Joe. Really, they think that
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: she has I think that he and maybe I, you know,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: feel free to roast be in the common. I don't
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: think that she loves him. I think that he is
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: someone that comes along when she is extremely lonely, who
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: has a skill that she needs. It's a mutually beneficial
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: relationship and that like, ultimately, I don't think she kills
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: him in anything but like anger and jealousy, which are
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: not love. Right.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, he's one of the first people to reject her
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: in a way that she actually is able to interpret
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: it as rejection because she's so surrounded by this like sheltered,
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: enabled life where you know, he's the first person who
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: comes along. And I really like his line towards the
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: end where he says, you know, Norma, you're a woman
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: of fifty, grow up and there's nothing tragic about being fifty,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: not unless you're trying to be twenty five, which is
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: what Norma is trying to do.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: But I also like that line. It's another amazing line
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: that is so loaded because it's coming from a man,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: because it's like he is like on paper in a
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: perfect world, he's right, but it's like he doesn't I
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: feel like, even though he understands that the world has
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: done Norma this injustice and not in a way that
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: feels underwritten in a way that I think is kind
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: of genuine to a lot of people who don't have
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: that experience of just being like, well, why don't you
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: just snap out of it? And it's like, well, you know,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: it's presenting like, well, what are her options? Certainly what
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: she's doing is not working for anyone, especially her, but
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: like it feels like the alternative that she's being presented
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: with is disappear gracefully, and that is like what women are,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: especially you know, women, the further back you go. And
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: it's like she is operating at the highest privileged level.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: She's a rich white woman, and she's still nonetheless being asked,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: you know, can't you just gracefully disappear? Like why can't
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: you do that? And I think that this movie, like
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I think in this movie, maybe it
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: doesn't make an overt suggestion of like what is the
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: alternative because I don't think there is an alternative for
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: Norma at this time. I mean, if we're being pragmatic,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: the alternative is go to TV, go to the stage.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: But like, I don't know, it's Norma is an ego
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: monster in a way that a lot of actors are
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: ego monsters. I don't think that it's like a you know,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: a gendered gender thing. I think that the way that
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: people with big egos are treated is in a gendered way.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: You know, for sure, no one's calling a man a diva.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: They're like, he knows what he wants and he doesn't
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: take shit from anyone, and like he's.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: Just going method and blah blah blah.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: God. Yeah, but you know when women do the same thing,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: they're difficult to work with whatever. But she is an
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: ego monster, nonetheless, yes, but yeah, it's like what are
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: her alternatives? And it seems like Joe's like, why don't
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: you just quietly like, you know, can't you just be normal?
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: And you're like, she kind of can't. Like not that
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: that makes it, that justifies any of her actions, but
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: her whole life has been constructed in a way that
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: it's like, what does normal look like?
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: What does normal normal look like?
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: You know, fact, what does normal look like? Garfield?
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: Wow, I just love a cat named normal because I
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: used to love Garfield so much.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he was a really good cat shout out normal. Yes,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: like she is.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: An ego monster, but she's a product of this environment
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: that turns people into ego monsters. And Joe, Yes, it's
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: He's right when he says, grow up, you're behaving like
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: a child based and there's nothing tragic about being fifty
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: unless you're trying to like desperately cling on to youth,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: which again she is doing because she is a product
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: of this you know, nasty Hollywood machine. Yeah, but he's
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: also complicit in this in the sense that he is
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: a writer actively working in Hollywood, and his just complicit
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: in this system that does value youth and beauty in
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: women and that like choose them up and spits them out.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: So and it like makes sense that he's finally comfortable
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: saying this when he I feel like I've had I mean,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: obviously not to this extent, but like you know what,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: like your friend is like I'm leaving La, I'm fucking done.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: And then and then you just start saying shit, and
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: like this is his his moment for that where it's like,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: you know, he's done with this industry. He doesn't need
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: to preserve any bridges. He's done, and so he can
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: finally just be like this is fucked, Like I'm your fuck.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: This is bad. Pops the bubble because he decides he
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: doesn't want to benefit from it. I don't know, I
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: didn't remember, Like it's a small detail, but I was like,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: he better not take that stuff. He does it, he
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: leaves the stuff. He's just like, fuck it, I'm gonna
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: go work at this job in Ohio. And you know,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: at that point in the movie, I wanted that for him.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: It's it's too bad that he gets killed two minutes later.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: There's something to be said though, for like, look at
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: this man who is able to accept that he didn't
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: make it in Hollywood, and so he's gonna go back
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: to his you know, humble beginnings and do whatever it
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: takes for him to survive. But he's accepting that the
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: Hollywood thing didn't work out for him, whereas.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, but I guess where I would contest
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: that a little bit is like because.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: He's like half I mean, I think the Betty character
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: helps to balance that out.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and also that like Norma has such a wildly
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: different experience of Hollywood. He hasn't even been successful, so
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: it's sort of like, well, Yeah, it's kind of a
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: lot like you can't be doing much worse than you're doing.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: You're like kind of a prisoner, you know. So it's
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: not like I didn't feel gendered to me that it
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: was easier for him to leave because there was nothing
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: for him there anymore, and then like it seemed like
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: his only way to stay there is to be in
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: this horrific I don't even know if you can call
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: it a relationship, this like cycle of abuse that he
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: is a part of, but it is also very much
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: a victim of, and I don't think that that is
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: something to shy away from. I think that again, if
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: we're going back to like movie criticism of the mid
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: twenty tens, which is where we came out of and
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: then we you know, grew up like Norma can't, but
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: that like there is a hero and villain of this story,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: there's not Like Norma is tremendously abusive and manipulative at times.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: Joe is like lies and manipulates people as well. Betty's
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: kind of the only person who's chilling and like, give
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: her time too. She's twenty two. She'll probably you know,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: become a monster if she hangs out in Hollywood long
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: enough's inevitable. But I liked going back to your point
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: about like the writer being complicit in this system too.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: It felt like this movie also had like a pretty
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: layered approach to that because it's true, but it's also
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: like demonstrated how the way that the system is encourages
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: that where it's suggested and it's like we don't really
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: get a clear idea on like what Joe would be
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: writing in a perfect world, so like is he brilliant?
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Probably not, but like he's trying to sell this shitty,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: bullshit idea that almost sounds like someone pitching a Netflix
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: movie right, like they're like, I don't know someone famous,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: isn't it baseball something? Is this anything? But how it's
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: it sounds like recently suggested that like this is not
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: the kind of work he wants to be doing. He
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: would rather be doing something creative and different, but that's
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: not the sort of thing that's going to allow him
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: to make a living. So that's also like drawn attention
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: to God. Yeah that the line about being like, yeah, yeah,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: I know you've heard a head of talent, but I
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: want to work this year, like vibe that, I get it,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: I get it. I get it.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, there's that. And then but I also just
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: I mean representation of a woman telling a male artist
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: that his art is bad and try it.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: Loves it no matter like if they're flirting or not,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: Like she's just like I cannot tell a lie.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: At that point, they're not flirting because that's like their
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: first meeting and she's at work and she's just like
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: giving her honest, professional opinion and she's like, oh, yeah,
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: I covered that script and I passed on it because
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: it was trite, and I was like, hell yeah, dude.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: And then also later Demil calls Norma's script awful, but
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: presumably he read the version that Joe rewrote and like
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: punched up and it's apparently still very bad. So I
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: think Joe is a flop. He's not a good writer.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: See again, I'm gonna come to Joe's defense here as
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: someone who's done punch up work. Some things are unsavable
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: and sometimes fair. And it also sounds like if she's
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: hovering over his shoulder being like, no, you can't take
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: that seat out, it's like, well, how much work did
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: he even really get to do? True? I say Joe
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: innocent in that instance. I do sort of wonder why
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: because there are multiple times in the movie where Joe
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: is like, hey, Betty, like you can have this, I
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: don't really want to do it. I'm like, why doesn't
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: she just do it? He's given her permission multiple times.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: Why doesn't she just do it? But maybe that's a
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: good I don't know as far as Norma goes to
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: sort of wrap up that discussion, Yes, to really fully
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: explore her, we would have to talk moment to moment
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: how she's behaved. I think that there are many tropes
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: present in her character, undoubtedly. I think that her character
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: uses these tropes to really exaggerate the point it seems
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: like Billy Wilder is trying to make about how Hollywood
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: choose actresses up and spits them out. And I think
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: that in that exaggeration, there are moments that are like
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: feel almost like I felt bad that Gloria Swanson had
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: to act them out because it's suggesting that this could
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: be her own experience when she was a person, and like,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: it was really interesting reading about her process of becoming
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: involved with this movie because she was a huge star
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: at Paramount and there is like a degree of truth
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: to that like line that Norma says when she goes
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: into the Paramount lot of like, you know, why should
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: I have to check in? I'm the reason this place exists.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: And Gloria Swanson was such a huge early Paramount star
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: that there is like some tongue in cheekness to that
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: she didn't want to have to audition for this part.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: She's like, why the funk would I have to audition?
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: That's silly, And George Qcoor, who is like another big
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: old Hollywood director, was like, just do it, like you'll
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: regret not doing it. But she had to make ego
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: compromises in order to play this ego monster, and I
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: just like, that is not the fault of Billy Wilder,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: but it is just an example of, like, even to
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: make this movie that is hyper critical of Hollywood practices,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: those practices still had to be in play in order
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: for it to even happen. And there were a lot
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: of silent film star actresses who were like, fuck you,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not doing this. Mary Pickford said no, May West
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: said no, I think And you can't fault them at
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: all to be like, well, and I don't think I
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: would be able to do They're like, hey, do you
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: want to play like a podcaster who's like a huge
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: fucking loser. I would be like, I'd rather not. I
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: don't know, I'd rather not. I was like, is there, Yeah,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: it's not even like hard, No, it's just like, is
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: that really my only option is there? Which it seems
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: like for Glorious wantson to get back into a major movie,
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: this was the option and like that fucking sucks.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, but that okay. So this is interesting where the
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: reason that a lot of stars who were considered or
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: offered the role of Norma Desmond, the reason they turned
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: it down informs something which I'll talk about in a second.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: But so like may West, who portrayed herself as a
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: sex symbol even into her forties fifties beyond, she was
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: offended that she would be asked to play you know
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: a quote unquote Hollywood has been because she's like, I'm
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: still fucking hot, Like that's not the image I want
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: to portray.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: The May West rejection's the best one. Yeah.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: Then you've got an actor named Clara Bowes. She was yeah,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: famous member her Silent Movie era star. She declined the role,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: saying that she didn't want to engage in the film
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: industry again because of how hard it was for her
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: to transition during like sound films, and I think it
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: just like rung too close to home.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: Norma Shearer also rejected the role due to, like I think,
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: similar reasons. She retired and she just had a distaste
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: for the script. She just didn't feel like the characters
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: someone she wanted to portray. But that brings me to
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: this movie and how it does acknowledge the effect of
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: societal expectations that are placed on women as far as like,
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: you know, you always have to be young forever. If
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: you age, you are rendered irrelevant. There's this strong pressure
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: to stay young and beautiful and all of this stuff,
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: which is this is sidal pressure, but also like very
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: very prevalent in Hollywood, which is so image based. Yes,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: this movie also again acknowledges what probably led her to
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: become such an egotistical person. Do I think that there
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: could have been a few more explicit lines of dialogue
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: that address this a little bit more explicitly? Maybe maybe
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: they would have been too on the nose, but I
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: feel like there are ways that the script could have
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: addressed and acknowledged those things a little bit more. Sure, thoroughly.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: But the movie for the most part, does acknowledge all
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: of these things. And even though there are tropes present
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: as far as like, well, yes, of course an older
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: woman is going to be delusional and she's going to
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: be jealous of the younger woman, because there's that part
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: where Norma calls Betty, who becomes Joe's new love interest,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: and she's like, well, you don't even know what's happening.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: He's actually with me, and things like that. But these
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: tropes are you know, tropes often come from some grain
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: of something that's true, which we see from the reasons
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: that those other actors rejected that role. So like, it's
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: all very interesting and it's just handled and I think
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: of a more nuanced way than a lesser movie would
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: have done.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I really really love this movie.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: I just I also, like, I can't fault any actor
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: for not wanting to play that role, because I mean
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: it's so you know, reflective of what's happening within the movie.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: Of like, this is Norma's big comeback, and this was
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: Glorious Swanson's quote unquote big comeback into film that yeah,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: required a level of ego compartmentalization that we don't ask
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: of male actors, is all I was sort of getting at.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: But it's still, like, I think, one of the best
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: performances I've ever because it's like it's like sad and
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: it's also goofy and scary what she's doing with her eyes.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: It's still am big.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: It's the pictures that got small.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: Oh she's just iconic. I love things were queer, but
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: they were about to get queer. Always true with this performance.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: She Oh god, there's moments where she goes like she
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: does this little gremlin voice that I love, where she's like,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm not afraid to die and you're like,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: oh my god, Hello, she can go big in that way,
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: but also have these moments of like complete devastit. It's
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: just so fucking good. She's so good. But yeah, Norma,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: I think that what you just said is a great
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: sort of bow on the Norma conversation. Oh thanks, but
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: we've got a Betty. We've got a Betty here, we
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: sure do. We've got miss Betty. I like Betty. I
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: like her. I thought she's got a good head on
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: her shoulders. I like you said before, I like that
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: she is. And again I think it is just an
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: element of because I just think of like people I
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: know and work with who grew up here tend to
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: have a healthier attitude towards the sort of bullshit that
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: takes place, because it's just like you're brought up knowing
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: it's bullshit. Right, It seems like that is sort of
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: where Betty's coming from. Where she's referenced that she's like
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: a third generation Hollywood worker, not a Hollywood star, and
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: then we haven't even talked about her experience as an actor,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: which I thought was a really really interesting narrative decision
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: to just add that, because it's like in like the
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: space of a scene completely helps you understand where she's
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: coming from and why her attitude, Like it was almost
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: like she was spared this potential norma future, right, right.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: So her backstory is that, like you said, she comes
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: from a Hollywood family in the sense that her parents
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: and grandparents worked in Hollywood, but were never in those
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: huge roles either as performers or like directors.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like lighting, costuming dn't work, yeah, stuff like that.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: So like she's a Hollywood the real she comes from
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: a Hollywood family, but it's not like nepotism necessarily it's
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: not like all that ego is not present in her
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: character and her kind of line of work. Then you
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: learn that she because she came from this, you know,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: like working class Hollywood family, it would maybe be expected
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: that she would also work and oh, let's try to
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: make her an actor. So her parents had her take
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: like acting classes and all this stuff, and then when
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: she went to do auditions and screen tests and things
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: like that, it's mentioned that they didn't like her nose,
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: so she had cosmetic surgery it seems to quote unquote
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: fix her nose or you know, have surgery performed on it,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: and then you know, the casting people liked her nose now,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: but then they didn't like her acting, so she never
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: made it as an actor. And it seems like this
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: is something that she accepted and went to work as
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: a script reader. But as she tells Joe, she's like,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do this forever. I'd like to
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: advance in my career. And that's one of the main
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: reasons she tries to like strike a professional relationship with him,
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: because he says something like he's like, thanks for your
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: interest in my career, and she's like, no, it's not
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: your career I'm interested in, and it's mine, Like I
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: was hoping to get in on this, make some kind
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: of deal because I don't want to be a reader
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: all my life. It seems like she wants to be
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: a screenwriter.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: Right, and it actually like is if she's quote unquote
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: just a reader at this time, it makes a lot
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: of sense that she would try to find a writing
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: partner who has at least had some work produced to
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: get her first screen credit and then, you know, like,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: if she's smart, kind of ditch Joe and start doing
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: her own thing. Right now, what she's doing makes complete
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: logical sense. I love the story about her almost becoming
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: an actor and then having that taken away. But like she,
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: I think because she has a more grounded view of
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: how brutal the industry is, because she's grown up around it.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: It's not this devastating ego blow. Like she's she's adaptable
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: and that's why she survives and because of And again
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: it's like I think that there would have been a
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: time where I would have watched Norma and Betty and
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: thought that it's like suggested that one is adaptable and
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: one isn't, And like there's a good kind of woman
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: and a bad kind of woman. But you still have
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: all the information you need as to why Norma was
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: not adaptable. She never got an opportunity to be adaptable.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: She became really famous when she was a kid. It's
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: all she knows. Are there people who become really famous
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: as kids who are adaptable people? Certainly? And like it's
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: always going to be a person to person thing. I
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: think what is generally true is people who become famous
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: very young and then are fairly well adjusted as adults
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: tend to have a good support system around them, which
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: Norma very much does not. It is not so as
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: exaggerated as her fate is. I do feel like you're
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: given all of the information as to why Betty is
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: comparatively well adjusted. I don't think it is a like
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: youth equals good old equals bad situation. Then they add
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: in this love story, which is just like, I don't know.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: I think that this it undercuts like we've been saying
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: for seven years. Adding a love story is not an
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: inherently bad thing. It's just like, well, what is it
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: adding to the story. I think that like, you don't
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: lose anything in this story if it is like a
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: professional relationship dissolving and not a romantic one developing. Completely agree,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: And that is like as close as I feel like
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: you have to just a trope, be a trup.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: I agree because like, the two main female characters in
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: this movie both fall in love with Joe, and I'm like,
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: first of all, why although I understand why Norma and
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: we already talked about this, whereas like, does she actually
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: love him or.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: He is useful? You know what's going on there? Exactly?
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: Like she probably you know, thinks she loves him, but
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: I'm sure she has a pretty warped perception of what
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: romantic love, like healthy romantic love is.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so she kinda like she LOOKI had no problem
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: killing him. He that is to be what indicates that,
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, obviously taking into account the mental
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: health cliff that she is falling off of the entire movie,
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: I think that that it like demonstrates that this was
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: not love. It was like, I want someone around me
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: who will help preserve this reality that I live in,
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: and once he doesn't do that, she kills him. Exactly.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: That's not yeah, it's that it's she's deeply lonely, it seems,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: and he's a young good looking guy who comes.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: Along and has also William Holten like he I mean
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: he's hot.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, it stands to reason why she would
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: be drawn to him. Yeah, But why Betty is drawn
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: to Joe I don't quite get in a romantic way.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: I can understand why she's like, oh, like, this is
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: someone who can potentially help me in my career, and
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: she's not going about it in any sort of manipulative way,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: like this is how just networking happens in Hollywood, where
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: you're just like, oh, this is someone.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: No, And that's like she's not pretending that she's doing
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: something she isn't. She's very honest about right. I mean
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: in the same way where it's like it would be
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: very easy for her to bullshit him and be like, oh, yeah,
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: I'm interested in your career, but she's honest about it.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: She's like, no, this is like a mutually beneficial thing.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: And they're collaborating in a way that felt like progressive
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: of like you don't see women professionals acting that way
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: in movies of this time very much, and so like
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: it's cool, And then I don't know, Yeah, I guess
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: it's like the only thing I can chalk it up
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: to is like being twenty two, like I you know,
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: certainly like in speaking for personal experience, not out of
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: the realm of possibility that a twenty two year old
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: can become infatuated with someone just because they're like older
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: and kind of doing something they want to do and
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: are nearby. But I don't think it serves the story.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: I don't think it serves her story. I think it
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: serves his true in a kind of male centric writer
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: way where it's like, oh, well, he has to make
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: the choice between two women, and it has to be
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: a romantic choice, where it doesn't. I think that this
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: the choice that he's making is ultimately a professional choice anyways,
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: because he's only with Norma for his career, and like
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: Betty is offering him a different version of that career,
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: I think the choice is still like adding the romantic
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: element is just like not necessary. I mean, it didn't
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: take up so much of the plot that it derailed
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: the movie. For me. It just felt like thrown in suddenly,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: and I know that they were like flirting and vibing
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: the whole movie. I wouldn't have minded if it was
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: just kind of left there where it's like they have
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: this like horny. I don't know. I just hope she
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: didn't go to Arizona. And I also kind of felt
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: bad for her boyfriend. I was like, that was yeah.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: He was so nice to Joe. He's like, yeah, you
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: can live at my house. I'll do whatever. You're my bud.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: And then he's like, all right, time to hit on
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: your girlfriend. You're like, come on, men get better at
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: being friends. Anyways. Yeah, I think that the romantic element
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: like did the least for me of any relationship in
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: the movie. Yeah.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: I mean Hollywood has been wedging in hetero romances for decades.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: I know we see it here and it still happens
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: to this day.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that was like an original part because
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: Billy Wilder's so funny and interesting, and I just I
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: really admire him, and I know that probably there's something horrible.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know about I really admired me, but I
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: really love him and I like hearing about just like
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: he was just a little rascal, where like he would
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: submit the pages for this script to get approved a
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: couple of pages at a time. You just sort of
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: trick people. And then he said he was adapting this
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: from a text called A Can of Beans, and they
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: were like, okay, like he'd led people to believe that.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: He's like, oh, yeah, it's based on this book I
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: read called A Can of Beans, which is so funny.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: You're just like, wow, you really can just don't ask
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: people who we've here to read a book if you
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: just tell them the book exists. They're like, yeah, totally
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: a can of Beans. I heard about that. I just
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: thought that mus really funny. Yeah, do you have any
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: they asked you what to touch on for this movie?
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: Not really.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: I just Norma engages in like as she's I guess
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: seducing Joe or like what however you want to define
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: that or what predatory? Yes, she is engaging in predatory
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: behavior because there's that like line of voiceover narration from
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: Joe where you know she would be showing him one
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: of her silent films and he says something like you
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: know sometimes she'd clutch my arm forgetting she was my employer. Yeah,
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: and then you know that escalates, which I feel like
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: you could argue is leaning into a trope about older
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: women that sure they are inherently predatory because no one
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: sees them as romantically viable people. Anymore, so of course
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: they're going to engage in, you know, sexually predatory behavior.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: You're like, now, listen, I don't know how to what
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: exactly to make of it, but I think that it
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: is I like, I am inclined to agree with you,
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: and also like, yeah, like that older women will prey
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: on younger women and that's like one of the few
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: kinds of older women that you see, or just like
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: an older woman who is single, there has to be
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: this air of inherently like she's desperate, right, and it
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: can't be like, I don't know, like you could even
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: be an older woman and be lonely and have it
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: not translate to that behavior. But I mean, I guess
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: the only thing and I'm obviously not trying to justify
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: the behavior. I think to contextualize the behavior. I feel
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: like that behavior is somewhat in line with Norma's entitlement
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: right to how she treats people. So it didn't feel
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: like out of step with the character. But then that
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: speaks to like, well, who is the character. It's Norma Desmond.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: She's a menace, but also she's wounded and she has
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: a product of her environment hurt people, hurt people, Damn, damn. Wow,
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: someone tell Billy Wilder that. I think that's all I
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: have to I just I love this movie. I love
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: how challenging it still is, and I love how it
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: interacts directly, not even like just with like the history
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: of Hollywood up until this point in a really brilliant
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: and smart way. Also Edith Head costumes just shouting that out.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: Oh that's that's always a good detail. But does it
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: pass the Bechtels test? Wow, like low Kia does. Like,
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: I think I'm giving it the edge. I think you
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: could make the argument that you know, the grand context
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: is Joe. But there is a brief phone conversation there's
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: it passes like once kind of back to back with
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: like Betty and her friend who we do get a name? Oh,
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: we learn her name at some point.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: Her roommate right, who like drives her to Norma's house.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, she is weirdly given a name in the car
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: when she's driving her. Either way, we do get her name.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: We could argue she's sort of like someone's on the phone.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: That's important because it's Norma. Yeah. And then it also
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: there's like two lines of dialogue at the beginning of
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: that phone call. The pass between Norma and Betty before
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: Joe inevitably comes.
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: Up right, So it's a it's a loose, soft pass.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it, but only because I just like
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: this movie.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: But it does demonstrate how little women interact in the movie.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: But that's not what this movie is about. If Norma
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: had more female friends, yeah, maybe she wouldn't be in.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: This I think she'd be a better shape. I think
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: her life would be in better shape.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But society, you know, conditions women to, as we've
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: talked about many times, be in competition with each other
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: and not have you know, support and camaraderie. So Norma
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: probably was just like although I think there are those
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: scenes where she like invites other Silent Film era stars,
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: including Buster Keaton playing himself, and a few other people
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: that I didn't recognize who they were, but they were
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: real Silent film stars, yes, yes, and a couple of
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: them are women. So she does seem to have some
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: friends who she plays bridge.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: With, so it doesn't seem like, say, Tice. I think
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: that that's like part of what makes that seem sad.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: It's like they're all together, but they're all kind of
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: like again, makes me totally understand why silent film stars
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: would be like fuck you, Billy Wilder, because it does
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: sort of present the entire silent film actor generation is
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: kind of like checked out and zongked and just like
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: drinking shuffling their thumbs around, you know. And I also
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: understand why it's like, oh, well, that's a fun part
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: for Buster Keaton to take because he survived that era,
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: so it's like, well, you know, he's fine. So again
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: I get why it's a challenging, annoying thing.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, in any case, our nipple scale.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: Our nipple scale, no one talks about that.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how come the nipple scale isn't the most famous
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: media metric of all time, which of course is our
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: scale where we rate movies zero two five nipples based
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, keeping
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: in mind that this is a movie exclusively about white
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: people and this white woman and her white privilege, which
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: is in step with Hollywood at the time. Yes, there
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: was very, very very little space for anyone who was
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: not white to achieve any kind of stardom in Hollywood
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: in this era. But the fact remains that this is
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: an entirely white movie about this very privileged white woman.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: In any case, the movie presents this very nuanced examination
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: of what an industry like Hollywood Wood does two people,
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 2: and particularly two women who are getting older, and it
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: acknowledges the various context that kind of creates this kind
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: of ego maniac character in Norma. And again, I do
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: think there could have been maybe a few more moments
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: of more explicit examinations of that. The movie presents it
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: visually without being too explicit about it. But again, you know,
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: there's always the like, you know, you don't want your
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: dialogue to be too on the nose and too preachy.
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: Right, And I think that also like part of the
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: reason it may have been more obvious to audiences at
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: the time as well. Sure, right, yeah, because this movie
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: is all as shit, it is very quite old.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: But even so, the movie you know, presents these things.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: And whether or not it how much judgment it is
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: passing on Norma is not super clear to me.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: That also is still like kind of eye of the beholdery,
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: like I don't know.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: Right, because it's like she doesn't come up is very
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: you know, sympathetic or empathetic by the end on account
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: of her murdering someone and then being like completely dissociating
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: But also she's so iconic. I know so, but it's
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: also not like a I don't know, I think like
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: a trope. I'm getting burn dataup right now in contemporary
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: movies is like just a kind of like good for
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: her ending to a movie of like and then she
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: killed him, good for her, and that is well, we'll
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: cover it eventually, but that was like the end of
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: poor things for me, whereas like it's another you know,
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: good for her movie that I think, like whatever whatever,
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: different discussion, but like, yes, whether you're like or not,
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: it's not good for her at the end of this movie.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: It's actually quite bad for her.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: It is not great for her. But yeah, yeah, I
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: don't know. I wish there was just and maybe this
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: is just like you know, us examining the movie in
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, a movie.
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: From nine seventy five years later, Oh my goodness, yikes.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: But I think if this movie not that it needs
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: to be remade at all, but if there was a more.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: Modern future adaptations, there's like ben Broadway adaptations. I think
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: Glenn Close wanted Tony for playing Norman Desmond, which I
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: wish to god, I could see. Yeah.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: Anyways, if there was a more modern retelling of this
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: story or a similar story, I think that it would
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: be more explicit about examining like gender bias and all
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 2: these things that the movie isn't super explicit about.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: But it's like also, I think, like fundamentally hard to
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: extract this movie from this time because of how even
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: though it's like you can up in history the things
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: we're talking about where it's like, well, what there's the
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: you know, silent film stars. You know, someone who is
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: famous thirty years ago, you'd be like, oh, easy one
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: to one is like a ninety sitcom actor that is
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: considered washed up now and trying to adapt with the times.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: But it's also so specific to like, I don't know,
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: I think that that's why they're so like there was
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: just an attempt to comment on this in Babylon last year,
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: where like the jump from silent pictures to talk like
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: it's just so metaphorically works so well.
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 2: Right, And it just reminds me that we still need
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: to cover Singing in the Rain because that is also
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: a movie about the transition from silent era movies to
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: talkies and how a lot of actors struggle to make
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: that transition and are discarded along the way. Anyway, Sorry,
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: really quick, So Sunset Flo.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: I did know this because I was recently I don't
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: know why, like bi annually I have to like watch
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: every video that exists of Glenn Close. I just love
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: glennon Close. I mean, and you're right to do that.
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: Over the holiday break, I was just like, the time
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: has come, I need to once again watch five hundred
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: video essays about Glenn Close. So I knew that she
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: had played Norma in an Andrew Lloyd Weber musical adaptation
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: from the early nineties Whoa, and then so she played
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: the part in ninety three and ninety four, and then
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: again in twenty sixteen seventeen Iconic. But do you know
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 1: who's currently playing Norma Desmond on the West End is
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: Nicole Scherzinger of the Pussycat Dolls. And I just think that,
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: who oh, I would go see that. I kind of
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: baffling to me. But also, yeah, I'm in, I'm in.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: I want to I want to see Pussycat Dolls Boulevard
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: bring in.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: Loosen up my buttons, Baby.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: Loosen up my buttons.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: Joe Gillis, Yes, well I will finally say what my
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: nipple rating? Oh yeah, after so much preamble, hmm, I
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: want to give it three point five. Okay, it's a
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 2: very white movie, but it is handling this subject matter
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: with more nuanced than movies from fifty or more years
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: later handled this subject. So it's cool and interesting in
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: that way. So three and a half nipples, and I
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: will split them between Gloria Swanson, the actor who plays Betty,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: which is Nancy Olsen, and I'll give Billy Wilder, who
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: hopefully was not problematic the way that basically everyone from
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: that era was by default.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: I did a light scared he he said some kind
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: of insulting things to Marilyn Monroe's intelligence that people feel
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: one way or another about. And also, you know he
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: was the seven year itch director that did the famous
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: skirt up shot. You know, right, He's not without sin.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: But I, unfortunately am a big old fan. I want
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: to give this movie for it that feels too high
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: because of how cartoonish Norma is. But I also don't
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: want to go much. I'm gonna go three point seven
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 1: five because it's just vibe space. I think this movie
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: is fantastic. I think that there are elements of it
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: that feel studio notes thee I hope, like adding in
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: a love story between Betty and Joe felt unnecessary, especially
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: because as I was watching it, I was like, Betty
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: could easily be a male character. Yeah, and I don't
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: wish that, but just because of like, I just felt
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: like the layering on of the love story was not necessary.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: One of the few things I really don't like about
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: this spoofee. But Norma is iconic again for all of
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: the complicated reasons we've talked about that also have to
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: do with the production and the time. You know, is
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: it reasonable that this is the best possible, you know,
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: prestige part available to a woman over fifty at this time. No,
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: I think that's incredibly fucked up. But it's an incredible part,
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: and it's like I feel like you for the most part.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: And I know we've had discussions of the shades of gray,
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of within that, but like you are
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: given context for the ways in which Norma is a
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: product of her environment, and it is not empathetic to
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: her environment to the point where this movie actively makes
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: a famous director look bad, which is amazing. I mean, like,
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: I can't really think of a contemporary example of that
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: happening in such an explicit way, like it's a you know,
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: big old cautionary tale about why it's a heap of
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: garbage to work in the entertainment industry, and you know,
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: fair enough, I mean, not wrong, not untrue. And I
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: also I mean, I think I know that Billy Wilder
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: is kind of known or was known for a long
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: time of being somewhat cynical in his outlook of the world,
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: where it's like there's no suggestion on how to improve
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: the entertainment industry. But I don't think that that's the
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: job of the movie, you know. I think that it
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: really paints a bleak picture of the Hollywood system at
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: this time, and like it works, and I think the
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: fact that it is age this well speaks to how
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: little has actually changed. True. So I yeah, I just
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: I think this is a wonderful movie. Three and zero
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: point seventy five nipples still got a lot to say.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give one to Norma. She did what
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: she had to do. I'm going to give one to Betty.
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give one two hmmm.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: I give one to Hoguy, of course, Hogg guy.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: Where's my hog? Eye spin off. Now that we're we're
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: scraping the bottom of the barrel of ip, Like, ha, guy,
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: what about that guy?
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: Let's give him six seasons in a movie. I'm gonna
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: take back everything and give my three and a half
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: nipples to the dead chimpanzee.
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: Oh bless, they're hard. We didn't, we didn't, we don't know.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: And then I'll give my point seventy five cute Billy
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: Wilder because God damn, I love him. I can't wait
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: to cover the apartment. I can't wait to cover some
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: like it hot and that Sunset Boulevard, Baby, I'm gonna
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: celebrate by walking down Sunset Boulevard and buying one diet coke. Yay,
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: that's my Sunset Boulevard. Walking down the street and getting
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: a diet coke four times a day? Why because I
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: can't have more than one soda at my house? Why
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive disorder? Fair.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna walk down Sunset Boulevard and Nerd Mount used
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: to be on Sunset Boulevard.
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: RP, Folks, It's a long street. It's many miles. I
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: was like, also, the Sunset Boulevard normous living on is
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: not the Sunset no, we live on the PP side
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: of Sunset Boulevard. Yeah, but I love it.
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: I imagine she lives in like the Beverly Hills.
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, would you know all that? If you take the two,
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: if you're a buzzhead like myself, you take the two
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: far enough you'll get to normal zone. But yeah, we're
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: we're closer to downtown. Anyways, you didn't ask. Uh. This
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: is a great movie. I would highly recommend. And also
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: it's streaming for free on the Internet Archive. If you
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: haven't seen it before, you can watch it for free
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: right now. Mm hm. Anyways, that's our show year. You
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: got a Shrek, you got a Sunset Boulevard, and next week, spoiler,
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 1: you got May Decemba. We're casting a wide net this year,
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: so enjoy. Indeed, you can follow us on all the
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: normal stuff. You can follow us on Instagram, you can
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: follow us on x and you can also subscribe to
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: our Patreon aka Matreon. Great way to start the year
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: five bucks a month at yourself. Treat yourself. It's five
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: bucks a month. It gets you access to two bonus
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: episodes a month with Caitlin and myself, and you also
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: get access to our back catalog of over I think
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: officially over one hundred and fifty bonus episodes, so you'll
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: be delighted and infuriated for days on end.
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: So check that out and go to our link tree
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: link tree slash Bechdall Cast to grab those tickets for
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 2: our upcoming tour once again. It's San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin,
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: and San Diego. Will be in those cities in early February,
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 2: so check our link tree to look at all the
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: ticket links and the dates and the details. So we
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: hope to see you there. Yes, and you can also
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 2: go to teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast to
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: grab some merch. So what you're gonna want to do?
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: Grab some merch, wear it to the live shows and
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: then we'll take pictures together and it'll be so cute.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: Exactly. In conclusion, we love you, Happy New Year, Happy
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. It's gonna be such a regular year.
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: We can feel it. So normal, so norma, so norma,
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: so normal. Goodbye, bye bye.
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
• 1:45:38
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• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskrosenski. Our logo in Merch
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  Speaker 2: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit
• 1:45:53
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