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121 - What is the romantasy genre? · Story Magic

• 2:14
  Emily: Foreign.
• 2:27
  Rachel: Hey, writers.
• 2:28
  Rachel: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
• 2:32
  Emily: I'm Emily.
• 2:33
  Rachel: And I'm Rachel.
• 2:34
  Emily: And today we are talking about the Romantasy genre.
• 2:40
  Emily: Woohoo.
• 2:41
  Emily: We're gonna get real into it, guys.
• 2:43
  Emily: Wait.
• 2:46
  Rachel: Yeah, where to start?
• 2:46
  Rachel: So I guess why, maybe.
• 2:50
  Rachel: Why are we talking about this?
• 2:51
  Emily: Okay, we're talking about this because it's been like, the bane of my existence this year.
• 2:58
  Rachel: Yes, that's a great place.
• 2:59
  Rachel: Let's start there.
• 3:00
  Rachel: Tell me more.
• 3:02
  Emily: Oh, my gosh, tell me more.
• 3:05
  Emily: Okay, what can I say?
• 3:05
  Emily: No, I'm just kidding.
• 3:10
  Emily: So, yeah.
• 3:11
  Emily: So as I think, as people who've listened to all of our episodes know, probably know are around, you probably know that I have been working on Project Storm is what I'm calling it this year.
• 3:22
  Emily: And I had a lot of trouble this summer trying to figure out what genre it was.
• 3:28
  Emily: And so that's kind of where the question first came up.
• 3:30
  Emily: It's like, in my writing, is Storm a romantasy story or is it something else?
• 3:37
  Emily: Um, and it was mind numbing trying to figure that out because it really impacted how I opened the story and, like, what I was gonna focus on.
• 3:46
  Emily: And I had conversations with you about if it's gonna be romantasy versus a thriller.
• 3:51
  Emily: I have to focus.
• 3:52
  Emily: Like, if I'm gonna call it a romantasy, I have to focus on certain tropes, right?
• 3:54
  Emily: And so I wanted to bring up the conversation because it's frustrating to me, right, that there's this.
• 4:04
  Emily: There's this sort of.
• 4:05
  Emily: There's two sides of this conversation that don't line up in that when you're writing and you're marketing and you're saying, I'm gonna.
• 4:14
  Emily: I'm gonna write a romantasy, right?
• 4:14
  Emily: Romantasy comes with specific expectations, which we'll talk about in a second.
• 4:20
  Emily: But then you see books that are being marketed as romantasy, and you're like, those don't fit the conventions, right?
• 4:26
  Emily: And it's like, it just feels like everybody's just slapping that label on anything that is speculative and has any kind of romance in it whatsoever, even if it's not a satisfying romance or a main romance or whatever.
• 4:39
  Emily: So I just want.
• 4:40
  Emily: That's sort of.
• 4:41
  Emily: My little rant is like how confusing and annoying it is that it's like there's these rules that we have to like, if you call it a romancy, you have to be in this structure.
• 4:49
  Emily: But then, like, all these people are getting away with not following those rules.
• 4:52
  Emily: So that's where it's coming from.
• 4:55
  Rachel: You're getting away with it.
• 4:56
  Rachel: But like, to what degree?
• 4:58
  Rachel: So as this is like me as a reader, slash me as someone with a little bit of knowledge about the industry.
• 5:05
  Rachel: And that's a dangerous place to be, you guys, because I have said this before and I, I say it very tongue in cheek.
• 5:15
  Rachel: Readers don't know about books.
• 5:18
  Rachel: Readers have opinions about how books make them feel.
• 5:21
  Emily: Yeah.
• 5:22
  Rachel: And like that's not a, a hateful.
• 5:25
  Rachel: I'm not saying anything in an upset place.
• 5:27
  Rachel: I'm just saying that like a lot of what determines Romantasy right now is based on what people say about it on TikTok.
• 5:36
  Rachel: And then what people are saying on TikTok is like, you have no credibility in this arena.
• 5:41
  Rachel: You are not in this arena.
• 5:43
  Rachel: You're just saying something and then people latch onto it and decide that's what this is.
• 5:48
  Rachel: So I'm saying that to be like, this is very murky.
• 5:52
  Rachel: I don't think anybody knows what the rules are.
• 5:56
  Rachel: There are no rules.
• 5:57
  Emily: Somebody made this term up in the last couple years.
• 6:00
  Rachel: Someone made it up.
• 6:02
  Rachel: Like I'm.
• 6:02
  Rachel: I believe it stems, I believe it, it was, it originated in Germany as a way to describe this very romance focused fantasy book.
• 6:13
  Rachel: So, like, it is, it is 100% a fantasy book, but it is heavily, heavily, heavily a romance book.
• 6:21
  Rachel: So it's a merging of romance and fantasy.
• 6:24
  Rachel: I've also heard people say there's a difference between romantasy and fantasy romance because fantasy romance, fantasy romance highlights the fantasy aspects higher than the romance aspects, but romantasy highlights the romance ahead of the fantasy.
• 6:40
  Rachel: And then there's like, I am completely with you.
• 6:44
  Rachel: Where nowadays, because it's such a buzzword, I think publishers label anything they can get away with it as romantasy.
• 6:52
  Rachel: And then that ends up serving as a big detriment to some of these books because readers have now an expectation.
• 6:57
  Rachel: It's a vibe, it's how they want to feel.
• 7:00
  Rachel: They pick up a book, it doesn't hit that vibe and they're like, well, what the fuck?
• 7:02
  Rachel: That's not romantic.
• 7:04
  Rachel: You're like, it's not, but what is?
• 7:06
  Rachel: I don't know.
• 7:07
  Rachel: Who's to say we're just all making this up anyway, like collectively.
• 7:14
  Rachel: We're collectively making it up, which with whatever TikTok video gets popular, like, that's honestly how a lot of these decisions I feel are being made.
• 7:24
  Rachel: I absolutely.
• 7:25
  Rachel: In this genre particular, nobody is sitting at a publishing house being like, this is what Romantasy is these are the rhythm.
• 7:32
  Rachel: Let's define it, let's determine.
• 7:35
  Rachel: No, what they're saying is it's just TikTok mess.
• 7:38
  Rachel: Right. And like.
• 7:39
  Rachel: And like, in a very valid way that consumption of the books is allowed to define what they should be or what they are.
• 7:48
  Rachel: But from the flip side, it makes like our, our side as the creators of these stories really difficult because.
• 7:55
  Emily: And the ones who have to have to decide how to market them and talk about them.
• 7:59
  Emily: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:59
  Rachel: So like we're.
• 8:01
  Rachel: Sometimes it feels to me like authors are trying to hit expectations that we have not created.
• 8:08
  Rachel: Where like then readers and any reader that has an, like an ability to access a book can call this whatever they want to call it and can have expectations for whatever they want to expect it to be.
• 8:21
  Rachel: And it's not aligned.
• 8:22
  Rachel: It's very murky.
• 8:23
  Emily: Yes.
• 8:23
  Rachel: But I think it's a vibe.
• 8:25
  Rachel: To me, Romantasy is a vibe.
• 8:27
  Rachel: I don't think it's super well defined, but at its core it is a combination of a romance story being told in a fantasy world.
• 8:40
  Rachel: It is not a fantasy world with a romance story.
• 8:44
  Rachel: I think it, it is very heavily.
• 8:46
  Rachel: This is a romance story that is set fantasy.
• 8:49
  Rachel: And, and I think the fantasy guidelines are also.
• 8:53
  Rachel: There's a lot of expectations of what that is because sometimes it's like, oh, just speculative.
• 8:58
  Rachel: But I, I don't even think readers understand.
• 9:00
  Rachel: Well, no, it's not what is speculative.
• 9:02
  Rachel: Cause is it like high fantasy?
• 9:04
  Rachel: Are we, how far into fantasy are we going to.
• 9:07
  Rachel: Are we just going non realistic world or are we going like we all have elves and fairies and like there are no humans or the humans that are.
• 9:16
  Rachel: There are like vastly different cultures, you know.
• 9:20
  Emily: Yeah.
• 9:20
  Rachel: Anyway, back to you.
• 9:23
  Emily: No, I, I mean, I agree.
• 9:24
  Emily: And we've had these, you know, we've had these conversations before and so I know we're in agreement and I think when to sort of clarify when you're, when you're saying it's a romance story in a fantasy world, what that means, right, is it's an a plot romance.
• 9:38
  Emily: And what that means is that the main plot is about the romance.
• 9:44
  Emily: There's not like some main plot that's happening and then you throw your characters together, you know, in Act 2, and like the romance.
• 9:50
  Emily: The romance is a big part of whatever ends up happening.
• 9:53
  Emily: Like, that's not.
• 9:55
  Emily: That is what we.
• 9:57
  Rachel: Right.
• 9:57
  Emily: And we're just talking.
• 9:59
  Emily: Like people on Tick Tock are talking.
• 10:02
  Rachel: I just have a microphone.
• 10:03
  Rachel: And you guys decide to listen.
• 10:05
  Emily: We're telling our Definitions.
• 10:06
  Emily: But since you're here for our.
• 10:10
  Emily: Our brains and our expertise, this is what we would.
• 10:13
  Emily: How we, I think have been talking about it this year is right.
• 10:17
  Emily: That fantasy romance is more of like, there is some other.
• 10:20
  Emily: A plot that's happening and then the romance is a very heavily heavy sort of secondary part of that.
• 10:26
  Rachel: Yes. And I, I have a thought to add there, which I still even think that, like, the.
• 10:31
  Rachel: This is not well defined because you take a contemporary romance where really the only plot that's happening is whether or not these characters will get together and like all of the plot that functions around them.
• 10:42
  Rachel: Maybe there's like a baker and a city guy trying to buy like, you know, like that plot still has to do with whether or not these characters are getting together.
• 10:52
  Rachel: Like, I also think a highlight of the romantic genre is that there's usually pretty high stakes.
• 10:58
  Rachel: Like, we have a plot where we have, like, we have like, I don't know, a dark lord that needs to be taken down.
• 11:05
  Rachel: Or we have, like, we're in dragon riding school and we're like, trying to become, you know, the, the best dragon rider.
• 11:13
  Rachel: Like, there still is a plot, but that plot can't function without the romance of these characters.
• 11:18
  Rachel: So it, it's not like you've taken will these characters end up together or not the exact same way that they function in a contemporary romance and then plopped them in like a fantasy world.
• 11:29
  Rachel: Like, I still think that the fantasy that exists, like, there usually are pretty large extenuating factors going on, but those, those things are.
• 11:44
  Rachel: Are integral to will these two characters get together?
• 11:50
  Rachel: Will they still, like, is there getting together, like solving the, the external plot?
• 11:57
  Rachel: Because, like, Serpent in the Wings of Night.
• 12:00
  Rachel: Like Serpent in the Wings of Night by Chrissa Broadbent.
• 12:03
  Rachel: That whole plot is like vampire trials.
• 12:05
  Emily: Yeah.
• 12:06
  Rachel: But the two characters that are in it, that's a romantasy because their romance is a very integral part to the vampire trials.
• 12:16
  Rachel: But like, vampire trials is the plot.
• 12:17
  Rachel: You know what I'm saying?
• 12:18
  Rachel: Yeah, I don't know what I'm saying.
• 12:21
  Emily: No. Yeah. No, it's the same with like, Heartless Hunter, Rune and Gideon.
• 12:27
  Emily: It's by Kristen Ciccarelli.
• 12:30
  Emily: Chicarelli Ciccarelli, one of those.
• 12:37
  Emily: Rune and Gideon. So Rune's a witch and Gideon's a witch hunter.
• 12:40
  Emily: Right.
• 12:40
  Emily: And so the whole plot of the story is that she's.
• 12:43
  Emily: Ruhn is trying to save a witch that's been imprisoned and Gideon is trying to find a witch that is like, wreaking havoc in his city, which he doesn't know is ruined.
• 12:55
  Emily: Right.
• 12:55
  Emily: But, like, so they're both trying to, like, fake date each other to get information out of each other.
• 13:01
  Emily: And so, like, that story doesn't exist.
• 13:04
  Emily: Like, I think that's a great example of romanticy because it's like that entire story is based around the fact that they are trying.
• 13:09
  Emily: They've decided they're, like, pursuing each other to fake date each other to try to get information about each other to serve whatever their plot goals are.
• 13:16
  Emily: Right.
• 13:16
  Emily: And so the entire book is about will they.
• 13:19
  Emily: Won't they actually, like, decide to love each other over whatever their external goals are or not?
• 13:24
  Emily: Right.
• 13:24
  Emily: And so that's a great one where.
• 13:25
  Emily: I think that's closer to what, like, the.
• 13:27
  Emily: A contemporary romance situation would be, where, like, everything is about them and, like, them getting together and not getting together.
• 13:37
  Emily: Yeah, I would say that's like a. A very, like.
• 13:41
  Emily: What's the word I'm looking for?
• 13:41
  Emily: Like, dominant hallmark Roman.
• 13:46
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 13:47
  Rachel: Yeah. I think, like, the.
• 13:52
  Rachel: As we've said, the romance is not a subplot.
• 13:54
  Rachel: It is the plot.
• 13:55
  Rachel: But there is a. Like, the fantasy part of this plot or the fantasy part of this book is also part of the plot.
• 14:02
  Rachel: Yeah, they are.
• 14:03
  Rachel: They are two together.
• 14:05
  Rachel: Like, I'm making.
• 14:05
  Rachel: Like, my fingers are crossed together.
• 14:07
  Rachel: Like, do that with your fingers.
• 14:09
  Rachel: You know what I'm talking about?
• 14:10
  Rachel: They are helixed together, the fantasy and the romance, I think in.
• 14:15
  Rachel: In a Romantasy. And then, I mean, you know, in Heartless Hunter, like, we have enemies to lovers.
• 14:23
  Rachel: In Serpent and the Wings of Night, that's enemies to lovers.
• 14:27
  Rachel: Like, there are a lot of common tropes that are in the genre, but they're not.
• 14:31
  Rachel: Are like faded mates.
• 14:33
  Rachel: I think the reason why Faded Mates as a trope work so well in Romantasy is because Faded Mates is singularly a fantasy trope.
• 14:40
  Rachel: Like, you don't have fated mates in contemporary.
• 14:43
  Rachel: It doesn't make sense.
• 14:44
  Rachel: There are.
• 14:45
  Rachel: There are genres that blend contemporary and fantasy, such as Omegaverse, where, like, Omegaverse is pretty much contemporary, but we've got, like, you know, fake fantasy things in there where, like, we have scent matches where if you smell somebody, you can determine whether or not you're.
• 15:06
  Rachel: You're their soulmate.
• 15:07
  Rachel: That's not real, but that's also not fantasy.
• 15:10
  Rachel: You know, it's not.
• 15:11
  Rachel: It's not the same.
• 15:12
  Rachel: But like, Fated Mates works so well in Romantasy because that is going to be a magical thing that doesn't exist.
• 15:21
  Rachel: And. And Fated Mates is also very particular in its difference from Just like the soulmates trope, where soulmates are soulmates, but fated mates are.
• 15:29
  Rachel: Like, you can't fight against this.
• 15:31
  Rachel: It's not even worth trying.
• 15:33
  Rachel: Like, you are determined by the stars to be together.
• 15:36
  Rachel: And, like, there's usually an aspect of, like, the person's biology that.
• 15:41
  Rachel: That feeds into a faded.
• 15:43
  Rachel: A fated mate stroke.
• 15:44
  Rachel: And by that, I mean, like, faded mates with a fairy where, like, fairy biology is different than human biology.
• 15:50
  Rachel: Humans don't have faded mates.
• 15:53
  Rachel: Fairies have faded mates, shifters have faded mates.
• 15:56
  Rachel: Like, all those are.
• 15:56
  Rachel: Are fantasy aspects.
• 15:59
  Rachel: So I think, like, you have common tropes, but they're not exclusive tropes.
• 16:04
  Rachel: Makes sense.
• 16:05
  Emily: Yeah. Yeah, it does.
• 16:07
  Emily: Yeah.
• 16:09
  Emily: So, yeah, if you're sort of struggling with whether or not your story is a romantasy or not, I think hopefully this has been helpful.
• 16:17
  Emily: I think the.
• 16:18
  Emily: What we're kind of saying is just make sure that whatever fantasy stuff is going on in your story, if you want to go with the romantasy route, right?
• 16:26
  Emily: And, like, solidly, confidently call it a romantasy, make sure that the romance is integral to solving the prop problem, plot problems, right?
• 16:33
  Emily: And, like, whatever's happening in their relationship, the ripple effects of that have consequences for the plot that are, you know, inevitable.
• 16:43
  Emily: I feel like that's really what we're trying to say.
• 16:45
  Emily: And then if you don't have that, that's fine.
• 16:48
  Emily: You can still call it a romantasy if it's a fantasy with romance in it.
• 16:52
  Emily: But just know that, like, you know, some readers might want more from the romance plot.
• 17:00
  Emily: If it's called a romantasy, then, like, you might have.
• 17:04
  Emily: That's kind of where I ended up.
• 17:06
  Emily: It's like I ended up not wanting to, you know, not wanting to shelve my book in that category because it was more of a thriller and, like, there was more, like, the focus was more on the thriller aspects and the fantasy aspects than it was the romance.
• 17:21
  Emily: The romance is very heavy in it, but it's not as integral to the plot.
• 17:25
  Emily: Um, and so I kind of had to figure out, like, what am I going to focus on?
• 17:27
  Emily: And that was my big question of the summer, is like, am I going to make the romance the main plot?
• 17:31
  Emily: Am I going to find ways to make it more integral to what's going to happen in the plot, or am I going to lean in the other direction?
• 17:37
  Emily: And I chose to lean in the other direction.
• 17:39
  Emily: We'll see what happens.
• 17:41
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 17:43
  Rachel: I think, like, if this is something that you're writing, if you're writing in Romantasy or if you want to write a Romantasy, please go read like a hundred romanticies.
• 17:51
  Rachel: I'm not even joking.
• 17:53
  Rachel: Like when I was trying to write Blood in the Water, I legitimately read like 50 to 75 mafia romances.
• 18:00
  Rachel: I mean, like these genres nowadays especially romantasy is overflowing with options.
• 18:07
  Rachel: Like just go read a shit ton to get the vibe.
• 18:11
  Rachel: There is a vibe here.
• 18:12
  Rachel: It's really hard to pin down, but the booktok girlies know what it is.
• 18:16
  Rachel: And if you're going to write a Romantasy, the booktok girlies are going to want to read it.
• 18:21
  Rachel: And I'm not exaggerating.
• 18:22
  Rachel: Like they have opinions.
• 18:24
  Rachel: So if you want to hit their expectations, even though you don't know what they are and you can't define them, go read like a hundred and get the vibe.
• 18:35
  Rachel: Because you will start to understand, like, why do we feel a certain way about this fantasy romance versus this romantasy?
• 18:43
  Rachel: Or why do we feel like this one was really successful?
• 18:46
  Rachel: Like a book like Quicksilver is really successful versus a different book.
• 18:51
  Rachel: Like, why does one or the other stand out versus not?
• 18:55
  Rachel: And I also think that helps you determine the choices you make, tropes wise or plot wise.
• 19:02
  Rachel: Like, do you want to write a book like Quicksilver and Brimstone?
• 19:06
  Rachel: Or do you want to separate from that and how.
• 19:09
  Rachel: But if you want to write something that's like pretty standard in the romantasy genre, there are incredibly popular books that you will, you can go pick up and read.
• 19:19
  Rachel: And if you haven't read them, I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you're going to publish in this genre and call yourself a romantasy writer.
• 19:27
  Rachel: Because again, there are opinions.
• 19:30
  Emily: Yeah.
• 19:31
  Rachel: So how do you want to navigate them if you don't care?
• 19:33
  Rachel: Whatever.
• 19:34
  Emily: I think that's good advice for any genre that anybody might want to write is go read a lot.
• 19:40
  Emily: Once I decided, like I am, what I'm really writing are thrillers that just have heavy romance subplots.
• 19:46
  Emily: I picked up a bunch of thrillers.
• 19:47
  Emily: They're not fantasy novels, but they're thrillers.
• 19:49
  Emily: And I'm look, you know, like I'm consuming them.
• 19:52
  Emily: I've been eating them like popcorn just to like get the vibe.
• 19:56
  Emily: Right. What is the vibe?
• 19:56
  Emily: What is the.
• 19:58
  Emily: What is the flow?
• 19:58
  Emily: What is the cadence of like, how information is revealed and when the stakes are upped and like all of that.
• 20:04
  Emily: Right.
• 20:06
  Emily: And I think that is the more intentional you can be about doing it.
• 20:11
  Emily: Great.
• 20:11
  Emily: But also just Reading a lot of them, you're going to pick up a lot of muscle memory of, like, what it is that is expected from whatever the genre is that you're trying to write.
• 20:20
  Emily: Yeah.
• 20:21
  Rachel: And let's also, like, okay, I was telling you I wanted to talk about this.
• 20:25
  Rachel: This is not a smooth segue.
• 20:26
  Rachel: It's not a good transition.
• 20:31
  Rachel: If you existed in the book space in the fall and were involved with the Booktok girlies.
• 20:38
  Rachel: Wait, let me just be clear.
• 20:39
  Rachel: I love the booktok girlies.
• 20:40
  Rachel: Okay.
• 20:41
  Rachel: I feel like I've been really harsh on them, but for having opinions.
• 20:44
  Rachel: I don't feel that way.
• 20:44
  Rachel: I love them.
• 20:45
  Rachel: I'm on booktok all the time and I love how much they consume.
• 20:51
  Rachel: Consume reading.
• 20:52
  Rachel: Like, these are.
• 20:52
  Rachel: These are people on booktok that, like, gobble up the books.
• 20:57
  Rachel: And I love them because they gobble up my books.
• 20:59
  Rachel: So I love them so much.
• 21:01
  Rachel: Someone came after the Booktok girlies this fall and they got ripped to shreds.
• 21:06
  Rachel: And it was specifically about Romantasy.
• 21:09
  Emily: Did you.
• 21:09
  Rachel: Because you said you don't live online as much as I do.
• 21:11
  Emily: Are you aware of it, especially this fall?
• 21:14
  Emily: No, but is this what we were talking about with that?
• 21:16
  Rachel: Okay.
• 21:16
  Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:18
  Rachel: Okay. So this last fall, there was an author who posted this, like, op ed piece.
• 21:23
  Rachel: And then she posted on.
• 21:25
  Rachel: I don't know in what order these posts came, but started this discourse about how romantasy is like, a stupid genre.
• 21:36
  Rachel: Like, stupid in the sense of, like, the people that read it are stupid and that it's a vulgar genre.
• 21:42
  Rachel: Because romantasy, also, one of the hallmarks of it is that it's spicy.
• 21:46
  Rachel: So that's not.
• 21:47
  Rachel: That's not an only.
• 21:48
  Rachel: It has to be spicy.
• 21:50
  Rachel: But that's part of the vibe.
• 21:51
  Rachel: People expect spice to some degree in romantasy.
• 21:56
  Rachel: So this person wrote this whole big thing, talked about this whole big thing about how, like, why do people love romantasy so much?
• 22:02
  Rachel: And it's.
• 22:04
  Rachel: Because it's vulgar and it's not literary and these people are dumb.
• 22:08
  Rachel: And I'm paraphrasing.
• 22:09
  Rachel: This is not hard to go find.
• 22:10
  Rachel: Go. Go look it up if you want to see exactly what they said.
• 22:13
  Rachel: But it was.
• 22:14
  Rachel: It like, blew up because it was so critical of this genre.
• 22:19
  Rachel: That is incredibly entertaining.
• 22:23
  Rachel: It is very fun.
• 22:24
  Rachel: I love reading Romantasy because they're fun and enjoyable and they're.
• 22:29
  Rachel: They're sexy and they're like.
• 22:31
  Rachel: They also are pretty comfortable because, like, I don't need to.
• 22:34
  Rachel: I. I know who.
• 22:35
  Rachel: I know what fairies are you know, like, that comes with its own set of expectations.
• 22:38
  Rachel: So you don't have to introduce a lot of world building to me because I understand what shifters are.
• 22:44
  Rachel: I know what fairies are.
• 22:44
  Rachel: So I think they're, like, also pretty comfortable to read.
• 22:48
  Rachel: They're super fun.
• 22:50
  Rachel: So there was all this discourse about how they're not, like, intellectually stimulating.
• 22:59
  Rachel: They're.
• 22:59
  Rachel: They're, like, stupid.
• 23:02
  Rachel: And, like, this person got ripped to shreds because, like, how unfair is that to lambast an entire genre because you don't like it.
• 23:11
  Rachel: And it's not even like, I don't like this genre for XYZ reasons.
• 23:14
  Rachel: It's like, this genre is vulgar.
• 23:17
  Rachel: This genre is derivative.
• 23:18
  Rachel: This genre is like, you know, all of these words.
• 23:23
  Rachel: And I think that's incredibly unfair because there are in.
• 23:29
  Rachel: There are some.
• 23:29
  Emily: Frankly, it's sexist.
• 23:31
  Rachel: Yes. It's very misogynistic.
• 23:33
  Rachel: Like, now I want to talk about, like, Let me get on my soapbox here.
• 23:39
  Rachel: Now I want to talk about, like, you know, what Romantasy as a genre, what it prioritizes in my mind is the centering of female pleasure and, like, the centering of the importance of the female, of the woman, and not just, like, this is a genre that highlights how incredibly powerful women can be and that looks a lot of different ways.
• 24:03
  Rachel: And this is a genre that centers female pleasure where you have these really ridiculous, over the top, some might say silly male main characters, but they go on their knees for these women and, like, it finally turns on its head of like, oh, well, we're supposed to praise these fantasy adventurer men.
• 24:21
  Rachel: No, I want that fantasy adventure men to praise me.
• 24:25
  Rachel: So I think Romantasy also does that really well where it finally puts the woman at, like, the value of this story.
• 24:33
  Rachel: So then the critique is incredibly misogynistic because you're, like, going to devalue.
• 24:41
  Rachel: You're gonna devalue an entire genre simply because it is actually interesting for women to read, to see themselves in that position for once.
• 24:53
  Rachel: For once, yeah.
• 24:54
  Rachel: The woman is in charge in our world.
• 24:56
  Rachel: And, like, suddenly that is like, oh, my God, How. How vulgar.
• 25:04
  Emily: Yeah.
• 25:05
  Rachel: So anyway, there's also.
• 25:08
  Emily: Right, the.
• 25:08
  Emily: The other side of the misogyny is the judgment that.
• 25:15
  Emily: That women must be stupid because we want to read something that is just easy and fun and light and we don't have to think really hard about it.
• 25:24
  Emily: Right?
• 25:24
  Emily: And it's like, yeah, I think that's the other.
• 25:28
  Emily: The other side of that.
• 25:29
  Emily: The.
• 25:29
  Emily: The silly, stupid, derivative sort of that angle of that argument.
• 25:34
  Emily: There's the sexism piece, but the.
• 25:36
  Emily: Or the sex piece.
• 25:37
  Emily: The spice piece.
• 25:38
  Emily: But there's also that.
• 25:41
  Emily: That judgment of the books for being what they are, which is light and easy and uncomplicated.
• 25:49
  Rachel: Yeah, I mean, well, uncomplicated in the fact that, like, because some of these books are.
• 25:57
  Rachel: Are like, you know, their plots are not simple.
• 26:00
  Rachel: You know, it's uncomplicated in the fact, like, oh, this was actually written for me for once.
• 26:07
  Rachel: You know, like, this is a genre.
• 26:09
  Rachel: I think women have read this genre and been like, wow, these books actually center me as the audience.
• 26:14
  Rachel: That's new.
• 26:15
  Rachel: And then someone comes around to be like, oh, my God, no, this is yucky.
• 26:20
  Rachel: Like, this is, like, so stupid that you're going to highlight the spot spice of this book in order to market it.
• 26:27
  Rachel: Like, what has our.
• 26:28
  Rachel: Our society become?
• 26:30
  Rachel: And it's like, no, that's not the point.
• 26:31
  Rachel: The point is that now we have books which are.
• 26:36
  Rachel: Are easy to read in the sense that I don't have to put a lot of emotional effort into connecting with the main character because it's written for me.
• 26:44
  Rachel: It's written for someone who is.
• 26:46
  Rachel: For most of the time, I'm.
• 26:47
  Rachel: Again, I'm not trying to paint broad strokes for an entire genre, but they're written usually for women that are not in control of large aspects of their life or they are used to having, like, you know, asshole alpha males around all the time, and then for once, they get to be the ones in charge.
• 27:06
  Emily: Or women who are also.
• 27:07
  Emily: Women who are just tired.
• 27:09
  Emily: Like.
• 27:09
  Rachel: Tired.
• 27:10
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 27:10
  Emily: I don't know.
• 27:11
  Emily: Like, sometimes I feel like I go to those stories over, say, some of the more deeply complex epic fantasies that, like, have all these things they're trying to say about the world.
• 27:22
  Emily: Right.
• 27:23
  Emily: And like, the ones that are the literary novels that are take brain energy to, like, follow and understand and, like, get the, you know, the deep, wonderful, amazing, incredible meaning out of.
• 27:33
  Emily: Right.
• 27:33
  Emily: Not to.
• 27:33
  Emily: Those are wonderful genres and I love them, but sometimes I just want to pick up something that's like an easy adventure.
• 27:39
  Emily: It doesn't have to be.
• 27:40
  Emily: And, like, that doesn't mean the book is not complicated or, like, there's not interesting things going on, but it's just.
• 27:45
  Emily: It's an easier read.
• 27:46
  Emily: It's not asking a lot of me to be able to enjoy it.
• 27:49
  Emily: Yeah.
• 27:50
  Emily: And I think that that's kind of what I'm.
• 27:53
  Emily: What I'm getting at there is that there is a judgment that because people want that, they must be dumb.
• 27:59
  Emily: That's. That that is the Part that really pisses me off.
• 28:02
  Emily: Yes.
• 28:03
  Rachel: Because there is.
• 28:05
  Rachel: Nowadays I just feel like in so much critique of the genre, it's like, oh, oh, wow, it's.
• 28:11
  Rachel: Look at these women.
• 28:12
  Rachel: They're finally enjoying to read some books that these books have no substance.
• 28:16
  Rachel: And I'm like, these books actually have tons of substance.
• 28:20
  Rachel: But.
• 28:20
  Emily: And also, who cares if they don't?
• 28:22
  Rachel: Yeah, who cares if they do?
• 28:23
  Emily: I want to listen to this audiobook while I wash the dishes and don't think about anything else.
• 28:27
  Rachel: Actually, it's like this weird critique in two ways because who cares?
• 28:32
  Rachel: Why does what I enjoy need to have substance?
• 28:32
  Rachel: But number two, why are you assuming it has no substance?
• 28:37
  Rachel: Just because it's not written for you?
• 28:39
  Rachel: Like, there's actually a lot of substance.
• 28:42
  Rachel: And I think a lot of people are finding a lot of comfort and heart in these books where love again is at the center.
• 28:48
  Rachel: Like, we've taken the critique of the romance genre, which has always been viewed as lesser than always, when it is historically continually the most profitable book genre.
• 29:02
  Rachel: And still we have these people that are like, oh, well, romance, blah.
• 29:06
  Rachel: You know, how silly people cough.
• 29:08
  Emily: Cough.
• 29:08
  Emily: Men.
• 29:09
  Rachel: Yes, men.
• 29:10
  Rachel: Or like, truly some.
• 29:13
  Rachel: Some women that are like, grasping to, you know, and like, well, I actually.
• 29:18
  Emily: Have a lot of female friends who, you know, I surround myself with very ambitious, high thinking brain ladies.
• 29:27
  Emily: Love them.
• 29:28
  Emily: But, you know, I, like, a lot of them have been like, I don't read fantasy, I don't read romance.
• 29:34
  Emily: I'm thinking of two in particular right now that I have loved since childhood.
• 29:39
  Emily: And like, for the longest time they were like, no, I don't read those things.
• 29:42
  Emily: I read smart things or I read, you know, thrillers. Whatever is acceptable.
• 29:47
  Emily: Right.
• 29:47
  Emily: And then they picked up a Romana seat and I just lost them.
• 29:51
  Emily: I lost them down the rabbit hole.
• 29:53
  Emily: Yes.
• 29:55
  Emily: It's like, what's that?
• 29:55
  Emily: Judgment Society.
• 29:57
  Emily: Yeah.
• 29:57
  Emily: It's okay to have fun.
• 29:59
  Emily: We don't have to, like.
• 30:01
  Emily: Yeah, we don't have to be, I don't know, the expectations of what men think we should be all the time.
• 30:07
  Emily: We're allowed to just enjoy ourselves.
• 30:10
  Rachel: Just enjoy ourselves.
• 30:11
  Rachel: So it's the same tired critique.
• 30:14
  Rachel: But now that you have this new genre that's again, centered on romance, we're doing it all over again.
• 30:20
  Emily: Yeah. And now it's just.
• 30:21
  Emily: It's the new attack, the new face.
• 30:24
  Emily: Yeah.
• 30:24
  Rachel: Yes. So this fall was a. Was a lot of attack on romantasy.
• 30:29
  Rachel: And it's.
• 30:29
  Rachel: It's gross, it's unfair, it's gross, it's misogynistic.
• 30:33
  Rachel: So, like, regardless of your personal preferences, I don't care what you read, you know, but don't, like, try to look at a genre like this and think in your head you're better than it.
• 30:44
  Rachel: Like, yeah, gross.
• 30:47
  Rachel: So the person and the reason why I'm like, I really wanted to talk about this was because.
• 30:55
  Rachel: Because I think it is now like a money making genre.
• 30:58
  Rachel: These critiques are just gonna keep happening, but then we're gonna have people that don't belong here continue to enter the space.
• 31:04
  Rachel: And what I mean by that is, like, I'm already seeing, like, off authors that step in here to make money without understanding what the genre is.
• 31:13
  Rachel: And I don't mean don't belong here as in you should be excluded.
• 31:16
  Rachel: But I mean, like, learn about what it is before you just decide, well, everybody's buying those books because they're dumb and stupid.
• 31:23
  Rachel: So I can write a dumb and stupid book and make a million dollars.
• 31:26
  Rachel: Like, no, stop.
• 31:33
  Rachel: I don't know, you guys.
• 31:35
  Rachel: Look, I'm gonna say again, we are not the only expert voices.
• 31:39
  Rachel: I am not expert in this.
• 31:41
  Rachel: So just like, if you're.
• 31:42
  Rachel: If you want to be here, you want to be around, go read the articles.
• 31:47
  Rachel: It's on substack.
• 31:49
  Rachel: Go watch the videos.
• 31:52
  Rachel: Go be on.
• 31:53
  Rachel: You don't have to just be on TikTok.
• 31:55
  Rachel: I mean, they're all over Instagram.
• 31:56
  Rachel: But I mean, I think, like, try to engage with the people who you want to read your stories and with the, the other books that you're trying to match to engage with that material in a meaningful way.
• 32:08
  Rachel: And you will figure out your place in this, in this genre.
• 32:12
  Rachel: Like, you'll figure out what you want to write.
• 32:14
  Rachel: You'll figure out where there's holes.
• 32:16
  Rachel: You'll figure out, like, where you can step in and be like, oh, I've never seen a combination of these tropes before, so let me try that.
• 32:22
  Rachel: Or be like, ooh, my book is.
• 32:25
  Rachel: Is just like this other book so I can comp title it.
• 32:28
  Rachel: Like, there's just.
• 32:29
  Rachel: There is an incredible opportunity in a genre like this, and it's super duper fun and just like, get to know it, I guess, a little bit.
• 32:41
  Emily: Yeah, no, I think that's smart.
• 32:43
  Emily: I think that's really, really smart.
• 32:45
  Emily: And once you've kind of done a lot of reading and then try and like.
• 32:49
  Emily: Because there's a lot of different kinds of romances too.
• 32:52
  Emily: Like, I will be the first to admit there are some types of Romanacies that are not for me.
• 32:57
  Emily: Um, and there are Some that very much are for me.
• 32:59
  Emily: Um, and that's just like.
• 33:01
  Emily: That doesn't make any better or worse.
• 33:03
  Emily: It just is.
• 33:04
  Emily: But, you know, if I were to decide that I wanted to write a romantasy, like, find the ones that are in the vibe that you want to write and look at the reviews.
• 33:15
  Emily: I mean, look at what people say about it.
• 33:16
  Emily: Look at how they're marketed.
• 33:18
  Emily: Look at how they're talked about.
• 33:19
  Emily: Are they talked about as romanticies?
• 33:19
  Emily: You know what I mean?
• 33:22
  Emily: Like, our.
• 33:23
  Emily: Do reviewers.
• 33:25
  Emily: What do reviewers say about that part of the story?
• 33:27
  Emily: And do.
• 33:28
  Emily: Did they find it fulfilling and, like, you know, correlate sort of what people are saying with how you saw it marketed?
• 33:35
  Emily: And you can kind of get a lot of information there about how you might talk about your own book in an effective way to reach the people that you want to reach.
• 33:45
  Rachel: Perfect.
• 33:47
  Emily: Cool.
• 33:47
  Rachel: That's it.
• 33:48
  Rachel: I'm.
• 33:48
  Rachel: I'm stepping off and I am putting myself up.
• 33:51
  Emily: Away.
• 33:54
  Rachel: Done.
• 33:56
  Emily: We should have, like, a. We.
• 33:57
  Emily: I just watch Stranger Things and, like, you know how they have their radio show and, like, they put the little, like, tapes in every.
• 34:04
  Emily: For the sounds every time.
• 34:05
  Emily: Like, we should have some sounds.
• 34:06
  Emily: We. Like the sliding of the soapbox going away.
• 34:09
  Rachel: Back under my desk.
• 34:12
  Rachel: Love you guys.
• 34:14
  Emily: Okay. Okay.
• 34:17
  Rachel: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling, and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 34:22
  Emily: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
• 34:26
  Emily: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 34:31
  Rachel: Link in the show notes.
• 34:32
  Rachel: We'll see you there.
• 34:33
  Emily: By.