Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Meoleo | The Christian Reeve Podcast #157

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Meoleo | The Christian Reeve Podcast #157 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Christian re
• 0:03
  podcast. Today's guest is a trainee
• 0:05
  psychotherapist from the UK. He goes by the online, Alias me.
• 0:09
  Oh, Leo. Welcome to the show, Leo, how
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  you did. Hi Christian.
• 0:14
  Thanks very much doing, really, really good and excited, to be
• 0:18
  chatting to you. Yeah, sometimes personality to
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  say. Hello, the pleasure to have you
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  on the show. Obviously.
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  I've discovered you through Tick-Tock and I will say there's
• 0:27
  just an aside note for anyone. That is a podcaster.
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  If If you have Tick-Tock use it, if you don't get it, it's a
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  great resource for just finding people in general.
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  I think and I found quite a few guests off that I've been able
• 0:41
  to luckily interview and you know, to be honest.
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  I was thinking about having you on the show for some time and
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  then I was kind of thinking and I know how this will sound
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  because I I sometimes talk about how on the podcast I go through
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  like transitionary periods, and there will be a few episodes and
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  this was one as well. I don't have like, loads and
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  loads of info to go on. I've got like a little bit of
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  info and I'm thinking, okay. How can I construct a good
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  conversation with someone without knowing much about them?
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  And without asking cliche questions, you know, like what's
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  your favorite color or, you know, like what drives you, you
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  know, it's yeah, difficult to do the, how, to tailor it.
• 1:22
  Well, it sounds like, yeah, I mean, it's like I said to you
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  before we started recording like this show, now I think is
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  entering During a period. Where it sounds like art.
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  It's entering its, you know, wave period.
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  Yes, Rembrandt phase. Yeah, I think it's just I think
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  I've realized because I think was this episode 157.
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  I believe request. I'll years in here in July.
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  Thank you. And I think over that time.
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  I've actually finally figured out the show is supposed to be
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  more about sharing people's stories getting to.
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  Oh people, that's that's when the conversations are best.
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  When people feel comfortable and they want to talk and just you
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  kind of see what happens. You know, I'm not going to just
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  like I'm not gonna Panic. Yeah.
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  Absolutely. Yeah, because I feel well for
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  instance. I mean there's a lot of podcasts
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  that I listen to some more research based and some are more
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  relaxed and Kickback, like I like for instance, the style
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  that Joe Rogan has But then I like the extensive research of
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  some of the professional wrestling podcast.
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  I listen to. So I've tried to kind of make
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  like an amalgamation of the to and yeah.
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  Anyway, I'm I've been rambling on a lot about podcasts just
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  because it was on my mind but let's actually talk to station
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  context. Yeah.
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  This is what you're signing up to.
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  This is what you're appearing. This is what you're becoming a
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  parked off. Yeah.
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  I just wanted to ask you right off the bat get Drake.
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  Straight into things. Why did you choose to pursue a
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  career in Psychotherapy? So talk us through your journey
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  and how you got to that point. Yeah.
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  Well so gosh, that's it's a long story that one but I think
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  perfect that. So really, it starts with my
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  life experience of course, which was that, you know, I think I've
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  shared relatively, open me on my Tick Tock about, you know,
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  having a bit of a background with personal background of some
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  Trauma some emotional difficulty, little bit of
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  emotional neglect, just just too difficult stuff and I think that
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  that environment although it was difficult.
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  You know, I really like Young's phrase.
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  Basic premise. That he says that every
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  innocence, every single person, every child is wasting for a
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  crisis to give their life meaning, which is really nice.
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  Positive. Spin on the idea that something
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  disastrous is just a disaster. You know, what if it Say office
• 4:00
  opportunity. So I think the opportunity that
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  it presented me was a sense of well, being interested in my own
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  experience, you know, because, you know, becoming
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  hyper-vigilant becoming very, very aware of your own difficult
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  emotions. Gets you a little bit versed in
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  being interested in that, you know, and I think what bounced
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  off of that was being interested in philosophy.
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  The meaning of life because I'm struggling to kind of grasp a
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  basic sense of what this is all about, right, you know, so
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  anxiety and and that sort of thing driving trying to grow
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  basically and an interesting other people, what makes other
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  people work, and I think that was the main kind of backdrop
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  and then specific events as I got close to beginning.
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  Training was my own personal process in therapy.
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  I think I was quite inspired by the idea that, yes, you can come
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  up with a different framework, a different way of understanding
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  yourself that genuinely does help and can make change.
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  So I thought I'd love to be able to give that.
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  So yeah, one thing I'm interested by because I've heard
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  that a lot of psychotherapists actually do go to therapy.
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  I think I might have even heard that from yourself actually at
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  one point following your work, but And to me, it look from a
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  logical kind of perspective. It's like, you know, generally
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  speaking in life. I think you can always offer
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  more empathy and be more useful to other people when they're
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  going for a specific situation. If you've been through it too
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  because you kind of know how to navigate it.
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  So logically, you know, you're going to be the therapist.
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  It kind of makes sense that you've, you know, dealt with
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  things yourself and therefore, you're able to better speak on
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  it. But what do Make of, you know,
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  maybe therapists that have not experienced any trauma or
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  issues. Like, can they really do you
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  think realistically help people in the same way more?
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  So all they're so like what's your thoughts on that?
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  Well, I think that lets say in emotional availability and then
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  empathic sorts of attitude and enthusiasm of desire and
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  attitude to try to relate to the other person.
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  And I think is a quality that doesn't necessarily require a
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  tragic backstory. For example, you know, so there
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  is a correlation between all of the psyche, famous
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  psychoanalysts Jung, Freud and so on Cline, all of them.
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  All of them have had some troubling account, and it's so
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  varied. And I think the fact that it's,
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  so very indicates that. I don't think any one person on
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  this Earth can can genuinely go through life without Some
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  experience, something impacting them and influencing their
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  behavior in their perception. And you know, I don't think it
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  necessarily needs to be called big trip, Big T trauma as a
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  label to be a worthwhile experience.
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  So I think if you've got a good account of your own experience,
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  a good awareness of your own experience and an interest in
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  others in the meaning of life, in trying to figure out what
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  being interested in relationship, I think.
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  All sorts of backgrounds of people are suitable for that,
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  kind of work, I think. What you speaking?
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  I was kind of thinking about. And you didn't come out and say
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  it. Exactly.
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  But you know, I think it's obviously a big part of the job
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  as it is with any situation where you're trying to relate to
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  people is just you know offering empathy, you know, I remember my
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  first and only ever experienced in therapy which put me off for
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  life and since then people are like, oh no it's an anomaly or
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  no. It was just a one-off bubble.
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  Are they try to convince me? I'm like, I'm too stubborn.
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  Anyway, it's like I'll deal with stuff myself.
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  And whatever. Right?
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  I was at University. I was having a really bad time
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  of it. And again, like I said, I'm very
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  stubborn. So I'm totally against ever
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  getting help in this time like so unbelievably desperate and I
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  won't go into the details of why, but I was having a tough
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  situation and so I thought I would use the services at the
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  University and I waited for about half an hour.
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  Maybe 45 minutes, fine. Ali got into this room, I wasn't
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  signed up or anything, but, you know, I had an option to
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  actually talk to someone. So I did I walk into this room
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  and I sit and I bear in mind. I'm a person that never cries.
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  Okay, like, there have been some funerals that I've been to a lot
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  of funerals and has been a few where there was one point.
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  I remember I was about 16, 17, and I was like, is there
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  something wrong with me? Like, I can't, yeah, but as I'm
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  now, as I'm older, I found myself getting more and more.
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  Let's sing. Sometimes I have to like crying
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  the baby but there's nothing wrong with showing emotion.
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  I would just say that. Now it's just my own thing.
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  Now, that's your own self narrative.
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  Yeah, but back that back then I was a bit more like, no, can't
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  cry. Men.
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  Don't cry. All that BBS.
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  Yeah, that's for trying to sort of turn it into a feeling of it.
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  Being a virtue. It's almost or a strong quality,
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  something like that. Men, don't cry as a sort of it
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  wasn't even that. No, it was that.
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  I'd been taught that through various male role models in the
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  year and I've also had the opposite, you know, but I guess,
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  you know, bad experiences at school, bad experiences in
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  different situations, work situations, and I don't know,
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  over a time and also, it's a generational thing as well.
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  A lot of people are meeting were like 20, 30 years older than me.
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  And that has an impression. And, you know, you have to
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  always think about whatever influence is you say from older
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  people. They've been influenced by
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  people other than them with and the world was different.
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  Then that's the thing. It into intergenerational
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  experience is a fascinating area and hugely hugely important.
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  I think, you know, if you usually you hear the phrase
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  intergenerational trauma, so, you know, and if if we have to
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  bear in mind, the war generation was only The two generations ago
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  that I think I made a video about this.
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  Not long ago, which is basically about this this cataclysm.
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  I think that runs through some the underbelly, I think a sort
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  of grin and bear it culture and emotional.
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  Retentiveness. We're not very open or
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  articulate about all vulnerabilities in general,
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  especially men, I think and yeah.
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  And I think I can see that if you can trace that thread
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  through the previous generations, That is it makes
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  sense to me because it's like there were different
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  requirements of people in those times.
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  But at the same time, you know, when people say things like, oh
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  it was wrong that people had to live this way and had to feel
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  this way excetera. I agree with them, but I just
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  think it's like we're constantly working on ourselves.
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  We're constantly even now, you know, people say, oh it's the
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  best it's ever been as far as people being able to talk and
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  talk out. Out I disagree.
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  I think that while it is good to have these conversations.
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  It's interesting. So as a man, being able to talk
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  about these things and not be ridiculed for it at the same
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  time. And I've said this before on the
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  show and in other contexts, that is a big difference between, oh,
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  I do a live stream and I talked about how I feel and people are
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  like, oh wow, versus say working in the workplace or you know
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  what I mean? Like, I can count even in more
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  recent years where I've been in certain.
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  Work situations and I've had to and I think it speaks to a dolt
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  being an adult as well as not really to do a gender or
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  anything like that. It's like controlling your
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  emotion in professional settings is very important because if you
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  don't, you lose your power in that situation and people call
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  you unprofessional. But, you know, you're not a
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  robot. That's the thing.
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  I agree with that. Yeah, and and people, I've known
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  this show before have have kind of said, as much like, I had a
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  business owner on the show, not too long ago.
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  And he said that a lot of time he would start his morning
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  meetings just by asking everyone how they were.
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  And he said that like a lot of the time people are and what
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  he'd asked him out of a scale of 1-10 and they give them a rough
• 13:00
  idea of what they were. And then this one time, one of
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  his members of Staff just said at 10 today.
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  And then he was like, oh my God, like tell us what's wrong?
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  And she explained all this terrible stuff that's going on.
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  And and then he said well, okay. What can we do to help with this
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  situation and what, you know, how can we help you to be where
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  you need to be? So, there are examples of where?
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  From a professional setting or whatever, mental health, and
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  things like that. I've taken seriously, but I
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  still feel like, in many cases. It's something that can and will
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  be used against you. You know, I think it.
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  I mean, there's so many variables in this.
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  I mean, it always takes two to tango.
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  So there is there, you know, there's a responsibility on the
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  sharer and there is a responsibility.
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  On The Listener, so, it's like in the work culture.
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  There may be a very Noble, intention to be receptive, and
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  to be, you know, promoting and advocating with mental health.
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  But what about, if you're coming into contact with a person
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  that's got yes, and some serious stuff going on, that desperately
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  needs containing and this person in turn Miss has misrepresented
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  the workplace as in the receptive other that's going To
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  hear them and sort it out. It's like, I think it's a good
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  thing to be boundary to go. Well, here's the extent to which
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  we can look after you, but this sounds like something that needs
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  a little bit further intention. And we'd like to encourage you
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  to find the space, but I think it can get Mucky, where let's
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  say the workplace institution that people involved presume to
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  be in if infinitely available without actually having that
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  skill set. Responsibility that the ethics
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  to let someone process their stuff in the right place.
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  That's how I'd put it. I remember seeing a tick tock
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  video, maybe use of a long long form once as a couple of minutes
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  long and maybe about a year and a half ago.
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  And it was a girl who was sitting there with her friend,
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  calling up her workplace to let them know that shoes.
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  Having another, like a mental health day like a bad day.
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  The I need I need I need to, I need to be off.
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  I'm sick, you know, need a mental health day, whatever.
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  And the person at the other end response is exactly what I've
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  been referring to. And I've spoken about on the
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  show before of toxic workplace. And it was amazing, the free 60
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  shift that happened during the phone call.
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  So, she badges this girl and says, well, a common brand name,
• 15:56
  they say her name is Katherine. Oh, well.
• 15:58
  Catherine, you know, it's not People really, is it, I mean,
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  you know, you've been through six three times now and you
• 16:05
  know, it's on except when she's like did you not listen to?
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  I said, I'm having bad mental health time of it and this is
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  not helping it. Right and she just keeps going
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  on and on and on and then let's say the other names their
• 16:22
  brushes, but we have Deborah she says well, Debra I quit then I
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  quit and she's like and then is amazing because the person on
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  the phone said, oh no. Well, let's not be Hasty.
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  Now now come on now and then she suddenly trying to backtrack
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  just like no I yeah, I don't want this job.
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  I don't need this job. Like I don't need this kind of
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  harassment. I'm having a mat bad mental
• 16:45
  health day. Yeah, you know, and it was
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  amazing. She was because she just
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  realized that she was wrong on the phone and she messed up
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  majorly and A legal standpoint. Doesn't look good.
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  You know, you pushed a person when they've told you that
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  they're having a bad mental health tell you could sue
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  someone for that. You could see them for about
• 17:06
  maybe harassment or something or I don't know something.
• 17:09
  Yeah, they probably cares. Yeah, it wouldn't let you.
• 17:12
  I mean we live in that we live in a time of where reputation is
• 17:15
  everything, you know, and it could be shattered like that.
• 17:18
  So it's especially for a company, so you've really got to
• 17:21
  be careful. Yeah, I think so.
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  I guess my when I hear that story, My first thought doesn't
• 17:27
  go to the sort of reputation or legal consequences.
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  First. I, what what I think of is the
• 17:34
  experience of the employee, you know, initially, I really like
• 17:37
  that. Their experience basically is
• 17:40
  being unrwa sieved, you know, so let's say it was a, you know, a
• 17:44
  therapeutic encounter or one that is posing itself as a
• 17:48
  therapeutic encounter that says, yes.
• 17:50
  Tell me all about it. I'm all is and you know
• 17:54
  vulnerable. Here's a need that I have here
• 17:57
  is the reason why I have that needs which is very vulnerable
• 18:00
  to actually share. And then if the other person's
• 18:03
  response is God, actually that's a bit much or you know, that's
• 18:07
  not really going to going to cut it for us.
• 18:11
  Yeah, it it's not a pleasant experience.
• 18:14
  So it's something like that. I just want to interject
• 18:16
  something based on what you said, which I think is very
• 18:18
  interesting. Is this idea?
• 18:22
  When you said before about, like how a company can sort of say,
• 18:26
  like all will be here. We'll sort it.
• 18:29
  So to speak, right? I think it's really important
• 18:31
  and it doesn't matter if you're working for a business or if
• 18:35
  it's just a one on what like such a friend that whenever I
• 18:38
  think about, for instance, be like what I've understood about
• 18:41
  empathy as a concept is that, lets say you're going for a bad
• 18:47
  time. And I see that, and I reach out
• 18:51
  to you and I say, hey, I'm here. I'm here for you, talk to me.
• 18:58
  Now, what that means? I think a lot of people just
• 19:00
  think like, oh, you can just have like a nice 5-minute
• 19:02
  conversation. And that's, it's like know, what
• 19:05
  will happen. Is that that person if they
• 19:09
  trust you which is a big deal, by the way, if someone is going
• 19:12
  through a difficult time and they decide to open up to you,
• 19:14
  don't take that lightly. That's a big thing.
• 19:17
  So you open up to that person. and then, It's almost like a
• 19:24
  contract. It's like you've, you got to now
• 19:27
  deliver your side of the thing. So what you've promised is that
• 19:31
  you're going to be there for them and listen.
• 19:33
  And that could be an hour, five hours.
• 19:36
  That could be a weekend. You don't know, but you've
• 19:39
  signed up for that. When you said, I will help you.
• 19:43
  Now. Don't get me wrong.
• 19:44
  It reason, there is a line and you can't fix someone else's
• 19:50
  life. But the whole point, I think of
• 19:52
  empathy is. Like I imagined it like watering
• 19:54
  flowers, where let's say the water.
• 19:57
  The flower is Will touring, right?
• 20:00
  You water it a little bit, it starts sprouting up.
• 20:03
  Now. It's in a bit of a stronger
• 20:05
  position where it can start helping itself that, and think
• 20:09
  is really empathy at its best. You're not there to try and fix
• 20:13
  someone else's life. They have to fix themselves, but
• 20:16
  you can guide them, you can lift them up.
• 20:18
  You can get them back to normal, you.
• 20:22
  No, like, normal functioning parameters, so to speak.
• 20:25
  And also, I just want to finish this story because it connects
• 20:27
  to what I was saying earlier because I know they'll be people
• 20:30
  like he didn't finish the story. I'm going to finish the story.
• 20:33
  So short, when I did go to that one and only Psychotherapy
• 20:36
  session and it links to what we're saying, as well, finally
• 20:38
  enough. I've linked it all.
• 20:40
  Yeah, perfect. Wait outside this book, person's
• 20:45
  door for 45 minutes. Finally, get to sit down, pour
• 20:48
  my heart out to a complete stranger, which I don't do that.
• 20:52
  Easily, unless I know you, I'm tricky with that, but I did it.
• 20:58
  And I burst into tears in front of the stranger, and the woman
• 21:01
  just sat there like, hmm. Hmm.
• 21:04
  Hmm. And then, all I heard after half
• 21:07
  an hour was okay, our times up. So I've got to let you go.
• 21:12
  And I was being, uh, sure. I was being ushered out of the
• 21:14
  door and I'm like, like my face is like Reds, like your tears
• 21:19
  ahead everywhere. It's like, She's like, I got
• 21:29
  home and I was just like, I remember the door closed and I
• 21:32
  was just like, wow, I'm never doing that again.
• 21:38
  But to bring it back. The point of the story is like,
• 21:42
  Her job was to actually. Give me something in that
• 21:49
  scenario, right? Here's what I would have done.
• 21:53
  Yeah, okay, maybe I finished it because she was just by the way.
• 21:56
  She she was like her time's up for the day.
• 21:59
  She I didn't know, don't know if she said like she had to go.
• 22:01
  I wasn't. But she said like all sessions
• 22:03
  it like she made it clear that she needed to go home or that
• 22:06
  it's over. And it's that if you're British,
• 22:09
  that's the thing. If you're certainly committed to
• 22:11
  your position, you will stay and do what you need to do.
• 22:15
  You know what I mean? Second.
• 22:17
  I mean gone, I think I have a big response to it, but I bet
• 22:23
  your friend so I don't interrupt you.
• 22:25
  Well, all of us can say is although you know, I don't want
• 22:30
  to get into mudslinging or anything like that, but it
• 22:32
  sounds like your experience. It, what was in need really was
• 22:36
  really, really framing what was going to be done in the first
• 22:40
  session. So go.
• 22:42
  So here's what this space is for.
• 22:44
  Here's what I'm hoping to establish with you.
• 22:47
  The first time and I think, you know, tip to have an awareness
• 22:51
  of the time towards the end of the session to think about the
• 22:54
  impact, you know to have it that self-awareness.
• 22:57
  How might the client received my saying I have to go.
• 23:00
  Now we've got to wrap up especially at the most critical
• 23:04
  moment, which is the first point of contact, good Lord.
• 23:07
  Like I would say, what would I have done?
• 23:11
  I would have taken the time. I think to go.
• 23:15
  That's a lot. Yeah.
• 23:17
  Just to say that you have shared a great deal.
• 23:20
  It matters to me. We don't quite have the space to
• 23:23
  account for everything that you've said, but it has really
• 23:26
  impacted me and and it matters and I'm in time, I would like to
• 23:30
  take this further with you next week.
• 23:32
  So I have a lot of responses. So that might not have been
• 23:35
  enough to account for everything you've said but the essential
• 23:39
  message is that you received was the opposite.
• 23:42
  Was your, your experience doesn't really land with me.
• 23:46
  It's not relevant for all. Whatever, you know, it's so
• 23:49
  yeah, I'm sorry you had that experience.
• 23:51
  Oh, no, I mean, it was a lifetime ago.
• 23:53
  It's fine. It's just them.
• 23:54
  The reason I want to bring it up as I think it is important from
• 23:57
  the empathy perspective. And also with what you're laying
• 24:00
  out there, there needs to be some sort of mapping out
• 24:03
  guidance. Like this is what you can come
• 24:05
  to expect. This is what we will achieve in
• 24:06
  this this this and this time, it's funny that you say like all
• 24:11
  we would set up a follow-up session by blah blah.
• 24:13
  She said nothing to me. There was no follow-up there.
• 24:17
  No, like I think she said something like oh if you want to
• 24:19
  pick another appointment, you have to go to the it's like you
• 24:23
  should be booking the appointment during me.
• 24:26
  Like I'm in distress. You should be helping but you
• 24:30
  know, whatever it was. It was just a crappy service,
• 24:33
  but well and that's I mean in that scenario where it the the
• 24:37
  most that you get the closest that you get towards a follow-up
• 24:41
  is a book, an appointment. If you want to see me again,
• 24:43
  it's like there's something lost.
• 24:45
  There's something, there's something.
• 24:47
  There's something not relational immediately relational between
• 24:50
  you and that person. It's like, sort of.
• 24:53
  I am merely the conduit of a service.
• 24:56
  If you want to speak to therapy bot again, you must, you know,
• 25:01
  go to machine and press. Well, you know, there's not
• 25:05
  enough human or what I want. I want to speak to you again.
• 25:10
  What's your, what's your approach to empathy, Leo.
• 25:14
  How do you approach it? I mean, empathy is just a word
• 25:21
  that something obviously used in so many different contexts.
• 25:25
  When I first, when I think of empathy, I think of a theorist,
• 25:27
  a very foundational theorist that informs most, what we call
• 25:32
  humanistic Psychotherapy and I can always circled back around.
• 25:35
  So what I mean by that, but what basically humanistic means, the
• 25:40
  main, it believes the main healing factor is human
• 25:43
  relationship rather than another type of approach.
• 25:47
  Twitch is understanding Insight knowing what you do, you know,
• 25:51
  knowing is the healing Factor. So, and I think you need a bit
• 25:55
  of both. But anyway, I digress.
• 25:58
  So empathy. So Carl Rogers has this Theory?
• 26:02
  Basically that in order for a person to grow, you need three
• 26:05
  qualities. You need the therapist of the
• 26:10
  person listening to show, what's called unconditional positive
• 26:13
  regard. So Choice a choice of YouTube
• 26:18
  Love appreciate the wholeness of this person regardless of what
• 26:22
  they bring or do and to try and Foster that within yourself.
• 26:27
  Then the second quality is what's called congruence,
• 26:30
  basically a genuineness to have your, the way that you behave
• 26:34
  and the way that you express yourself to actually match your
• 26:39
  inner experience, and that's rather than any kind of
• 26:42
  contrivance will pretend. So attempting to be as genuine
• 26:46
  as Abel. And then the last quality is
• 26:49
  empathy. So what college is kind of said
• 26:53
  about empathy was you need to try to reach in to feel and
• 26:58
  understand and see the experience of the other person
• 27:00
  as closely as possible. But never so much to lose your
• 27:07
  own sense of self. So, you have to sort of be have
• 27:11
  a sense of I. Am the person, I am experiencing
• 27:15
  this person's experience. Sort of say like the he called
• 27:20
  it the as if quality so you need a little hook, a little line
• 27:24
  attached to your ship that to get because otherwise you should
• 27:29
  have merge and then you don't have a sense of relationship, if
• 27:32
  you lose your own self by zooming in and getting.
• 27:35
  So let's say like you felt all of their anxiety and you really
• 27:40
  felt it without the, I am feeling this with with purpose
• 27:45
  and then you're just in The same boat as them, you know you.
• 27:51
  So I'll I think one more thing I'd say about empathy people.
• 27:55
  Often say if you do it, right, you can really know and
• 28:00
  experience the other person's experience, but I don't know.
• 28:03
  I'm a little bit of a cynic on that.
• 28:05
  I think you can't experience someone else's experience.
• 28:10
  How could you possibly know? How could you possibly say?
• 28:13
  Oh, I know what you mean. I know how you feel.
• 28:17
  I think it's categorically impossible to say because you've
• 28:21
  only got your own separate frame of reference, your own response,
• 28:26
  your own subjectivity. It's a reactive.
• 28:28
  So I'd say, you can only experience another persons
• 28:31
  experiencing and have your own response to that.
• 28:36
  I think empathy has been something that I've been
• 28:39
  learning a lot about over the last five, to six years.
• 28:44
  I would say, and Even in the last year.
• 28:48
  I thought I had it kind of like totally figured out but then
• 28:52
  something happened recently which kind of totally reframed.
• 28:57
  The way I look at it. So I was under the impression
• 29:02
  that you're supposed to sit and say things like, I understand
• 29:05
  you. I know how you feel.
• 29:06
  And you know what? That I think that is genuine.
• 29:11
  If you have gone through a similar experience, I think I
• 29:17
  think your wording has is has to be careful though because I've
• 29:22
  noticed some people when you say that to them, they will get
• 29:25
  hostile and be like, you don't know what I'm dealing with which
• 29:27
  is fair enough. If you're upset and you know,
• 29:31
  and also you don't know that that other person has gone
• 29:33
  through something similar. Plus it not going to be the same
• 29:36
  situation. Secondly sometimes yeah, you get
• 29:41
  The, the will receive that well and will be alike.
• 29:45
  Okay, tell me about your experience.
• 29:47
  But at the end of the day, I agree with your point.
• 29:51
  I think it's, that's not really what empathy is about and I go
• 29:56
  to the example I gave recently where I was talking to someone
• 30:00
  and they kind of point-blank turn around to me and just said,
• 30:06
  I need you to validate what I'm saying.
• 30:10
  Like, Validate my feelings. Don't give me light because I
• 30:17
  and I'll admit this, but myself, I'm flawed in this manner.
• 30:20
  And my nan is the same with similar people very practical
• 30:24
  people. So if you, if you talk to me, my
• 30:29
  natural inclination is to try to give you advice, obviously not
• 30:33
  in like and it like I would never turn around be like, well,
• 30:37
  your life is screwed. And this is what you need to do.
• 30:38
  Like, it would be kind of like, oh, well, I think maybe you
• 30:42
  should try that. Right?
• 30:43
  But I know yes that's wrong. And that sometimes that might go
• 30:48
  down. Well, but generally speaking
• 30:49
  that when you're upset when you really your lowest point and you
• 30:55
  need someone to empathize with you.
• 30:57
  That's not what you want to hear.
• 30:59
  You need to hear. Someone say like well I'm here
• 31:03
  for you. Yes, I hear, you know, I care.
• 31:09
  What can I do for you? Do you want a cup of tea?
• 31:13
  Sometimes? It is sometimes, empathy is just
• 31:15
  being that. Like, I remember one time I was,
• 31:19
  I was, I was working in a hotel and there was a girl.
• 31:26
  Crying about her boyfriend, and it was in the staff room,
• 31:29
  Agassi, people staring and staff, and I was kind of shocked
• 31:33
  that no one had really gone up to her and just, you know,
• 31:35
  because everyone knew her and liked it.
• 31:37
  She was sweetheart, you know, really sociable but no one was
• 31:39
  at going up to her and trying to help and I didn't know her that
• 31:42
  well to be honest, but we went to UNI together, but we didn't
• 31:45
  really know each other spoken a few times.
• 31:49
  And I just went and sat down next to her and I was like, hey
• 31:53
  you want to talk and She's like, yeah, and she's kind of opening
• 31:56
  up a little bit and I was like you want to go get out of here
• 31:59
  and she was like, yeah. Yeah, like you can tell straight
• 32:01
  away. That was a good move.
• 32:03
  Get her out of the situation and we got like really far away to
• 32:08
  somewhere that, you know, maybe a few staff members walking
• 32:11
  around but we were outside and yeah, I was just like, talk to
• 32:14
  me, tell me what's wrong and she opened up.
• 32:16
  She cried. We had a little hog, you know,
• 32:17
  and she felt better and I didn't really do anything.
• 32:21
  I was just there for her and I took her out of that situation.
• 32:25
  And sometimes that's all you need is.
• 32:28
  You need like a hog or someone to show?
• 32:31
  Hey, you know, I care. Yes, the gesture of care, you
• 32:36
  know, and I think, I think if you can sort of, it's like you
• 32:39
  say, I think there is a selflessness or an attempt to be
• 32:43
  a little bit more selfless when you're trying to be at empathic
• 32:49
  or supportive of another person, but I think it's Case by case.
• 32:53
  So I've been really interested. The in this concept of sort of
• 32:58
  masculine energy and feminine energy as a shorthand.
• 33:02
  So like basically Young's got this idea of the anima and the
• 33:06
  Animus, the male and the female quality of the psyche himself,
• 33:11
  you know, and I think that if we could say for shorthand, I'm not
• 33:15
  looking to upset anybody here, but let's say the feminine
• 33:19
  quality is a more receptive. Quality one that says are hey, I
• 33:23
  care about how you feel. Feel would you like a cup of
• 33:26
  tea? You know, I, you know, that's
• 33:28
  really pithy example, but but but sort of I would just want to
• 33:32
  care about how you feel right now that that feels receptive.
• 33:37
  And then I think there is another quality which is which
• 33:40
  made me think of your practical approach which actually is a
• 33:43
  very necessary in good counterpart, which is his and
• 33:47
  here's what you can do, but I think you need both.
• 33:50
  I think there is this. There's a time for, right?
• 33:53
  This is let's get you into a Swear, you can just hear
• 33:56
  yourself think and I'm going to be here and just be with you and
• 33:59
  there's human relationship. And then and I want to help you
• 34:04
  out in these ways. Here is some structure.
• 34:06
  Here is the waiter to maybe do something what you think of
• 34:09
  these strategies. But to be available to what they
• 34:12
  have to say in return rather than to sort of voiced.
• 34:15
  It is advice. Here's what you should do is
• 34:18
  like I reckon something like this helped for me.
• 34:22
  How does that sit with you, you know interest instead of really
• 34:24
  oh, Own it. Maybe that's the difference.
• 34:29
  I think that When you're at your lowest point and you need help,
• 34:36
  you need empathy. The last thing you want is for
• 34:41
  someone to start, not only giving advice or telling you
• 34:47
  what you should do or shouldn't do or blah blah blah blah, but
• 34:50
  they want to be in control of the situation.
• 34:54
  They don't feel in control of the situation.
• 34:57
  And therefore, if you come in almost like a bull in a china
• 35:00
  shop. Trying to take over and but you
• 35:03
  should do this. You should do that.
• 35:04
  You're taking away their power and they feel powerless in the
• 35:07
  situation anyway, and the one thing I've noticed that I've
• 35:11
  been much more respectful of nowadays, is to let people lead
• 35:17
  and let people ask if someone turns around to me and says,
• 35:22
  after me, listening says, well, what would you do?
• 35:25
  What do you recommend? Then?
• 35:27
  I'll say something. I try my best to keep.
• 35:31
  My advice to myself, sometimes I'll add it in if I feel it's
• 35:35
  appropriate like a feel like maybe that's what they're
• 35:38
  looking for. But I try to err on the side of
• 35:40
  caution and not do that. And I'll give another example.
• 35:43
  That's not quite the same thing, but it will a straight my point
• 35:46
  about yeah showing respect. So I met a new person today
• 35:51
  through one of my old the other day.
• 35:52
  For one of my house pays and really nice guy.
• 35:56
  Great guys is, unfortunately going through a situation with
• 35:59
  his now. Ex-partner and it sounds a bit
• 36:03
  like sad. And you know, and I remember the
• 36:06
  second time. We were there sitting there
• 36:08
  second time. We've met or though, so it's the
• 36:10
  first time we've met him and we're all sitting in drinking
• 36:15
  and it was one of those situations where him and his
• 36:18
  friend were already talking about it.
• 36:20
  We come and sit down and then we hear this.
• 36:22
  And in my head about a thousand different thoughts are going
• 36:25
  through my head. It's like, I could say this say
• 36:27
  this, I could offer this and I'm just the whole time.
• 36:30
  I'm thinking Keep your mouth shut.
• 36:33
  You don't know this person. They haven't asked you.
• 36:37
  I think that there is. Ascertain.
• 36:42
  Thing about, you know, knowing someone for a while and then
• 36:45
  maybe like, for example, let's say I became better friends with
• 36:51
  that person or whatever and then that person turned around to me
• 36:54
  and said, our Chris. This is what I'm going through.
• 36:56
  What do you think? I would see that.
• 36:59
  As I can invite in, like, RK, the relationship has now grown
• 37:03
  and this is what is happening now, you know, but that's the
• 37:07
  point. I'm trying to make with this.
• 37:08
  Is that You go to, always show, respect to people and let them.
• 37:12
  If someone has a challenge or a problem.
• 37:15
  They need to lead that. And it's you have no business
• 37:18
  trying to come in and take control.
• 37:22
  I get that I really like that. I mean it makes me think about
• 37:26
  ultimately what's your role as a friend.
• 37:30
  What is what is the role that you as you've been saying, you
• 37:32
  know, is the context of premise for the relationship to be a
• 37:39
  Positive 1, you know, are but there's different types of
• 37:42
  friends as well. You know, there's a really
• 37:44
  great. What's it called?
• 37:49
  There's a really great series on YouTube, which is just loads of
• 37:53
  cool mental health videos. It's like really nice animations
• 37:57
  School of life. So the School of Life series,
• 38:01
  there's one great video. That's about how there's
• 38:03
  different types of friends. And it's like, there's the
• 38:07
  Practical one that's good at. Talk about finances and commerce
• 38:11
  and networking. Right?
• 38:12
  And then there's the, there's the fun one.
• 38:14
  That's just a bit of a Wally in, like sister to just be a kid.
• 38:18
  Then there's the, there's the receptive.
• 38:20
  Emotional wants to talk about personal processing growth and
• 38:25
  and that kind of thing, and I think it's like knowing the
• 38:29
  format of your relationship, you know.
• 38:33
  What's up? No, I agree with you.
• 38:37
  I think there's a lot of Truth to that and I think also
• 38:39
  explains why. It's a bit unfair sometimes to
• 38:44
  expect. I mean it's unfair to expect
• 38:45
  Perfection from anyone because it doesn't exist.
• 38:48
  But for example, you'll hear me, occasionally, say things like
• 38:51
  well, this is a floor of mine. I'm like this.
• 38:54
  I'm like that, you know, I'm very happy to turn around and
• 38:56
  talk about my flaws, but I've accepted the type of person.
• 38:59
  I am like, I always work myself, but there are plenty of flaws.
• 39:03
  And the way I look at it is this is just the type of human, not
• 39:06
  being I am and it's okay to have those flaws.
• 39:09
  Because for example, You know. I can be maybe that goofy guy.
• 39:19
  For example, you go that I can be that goofy funny happy guy,
• 39:21
  but I can't be that guy all the time because I'm actually quite
• 39:23
  a emotional sensitive being. If I'm going through something.
• 39:27
  Yes. Probably you won't see me or
• 39:30
  like, I'd like for instance. I I really struggle keeping
• 39:34
  emotions in like from angry. It's written on my face.
• 39:37
  If I want sets somewhere face. Like I can't pretend not to be
• 39:41
  or just be like, yeah, I'm Great, everything's great.
• 39:44
  And I know that there are people that can do that and that's
• 39:46
  amazing, but we're all different.
• 39:49
  And I think you have to kind of accept people as they are and
• 39:52
  take positives and the negatives and everything.
• 39:55
  And, you know, the only time you ever call people out is when
• 39:58
  they're just doing that genuinely reprehensible stuff
• 40:01
  then. Yeah, you're really called them
• 40:04
  out, but maybe, maybe it's possible for us to draw a
• 40:08
  distinction, between a supportive relationship and the
• 40:12
  therapeutic. Check relationship.
• 40:13
  Maybe that's the difference because I think, you know,
• 40:17
  because I don't want to say, you know, there's this type of
• 40:19
  friend, this type of Thrones, this type of friends.
• 40:21
  I'm not saying stay in your lane, but I bet it's I think
• 40:24
  there's, you're right, though, like not every friend has to be.
• 40:30
  Like I hear sometimes people say, like, oh they weren't there
• 40:33
  for me. But it's like, have you ever
• 40:34
  thought that like certain friends don't have that ability
• 40:39
  to be there for you in that way? And it's not because they don't
• 40:42
  care. It's because they just don't
• 40:44
  know what to say. Like, there's been times when
• 40:46
  that's the thing. I've had situations where
• 40:49
  someone has reached out to me and they're going through
• 40:52
  something really hard and I have that.
• 40:53
  I don't know what to say will do.
• 40:56
  And and actually it's a perfectly valid response to say
• 41:00
  you I know what to say, you know, it's the tone in which you
• 41:04
  say it. There's a way of saying I care
• 41:07
  about what's going on for you. I don't know exactly how to help
• 41:11
  but I would like to. I care about your experience,
• 41:13
  right? Exactly.
• 41:14
  I mean, I mean how powerful is that?
• 41:16
  Like to be able to just say that I think that's more knowledge to
• 41:20
  be honest. Then then actually knowing is to
• 41:23
  show you that you care because it's amazing.
• 41:26
  How like when you go for a dark time sometimes and then you do
• 41:29
  reach out and Suddenly, all those people that said they were
• 41:32
  going to be for there for you aren't there for you, you know,
• 41:35
  so, oh, okay. I see how it is.
• 41:39
  Well, it means I think you're right.
• 41:41
  I think it means a great deal more to to have that sort of
• 41:44
  integrity and honesty to be able to say, I don't know if I quite
• 41:49
  have the space right now with stuff going on.
• 41:52
  I want to be there with you, but you know, to sort of say, I'm
• 41:57
  not going to pretend to be available.
• 42:00
  In this way when I can't you know, I'm going to stir is my
• 42:03
  boundary, his Myspace what? Because I was just going to say
• 42:08
  it because because then it leaves the person that needs
• 42:10
  help. Then it allows them to find the
• 42:13
  right place. You know, it's like right there
• 42:16
  in which case. Maybe let's go into something
• 42:18
  more professional. Get something for myself, you
• 42:21
  know, seek the support know where I can go to get it.
• 42:25
  I don't know, I grew, I grew. Let's, let's shift the
• 42:30
  conversation. For it and took a little bit
• 42:32
  more about your experiences as a trainee.
• 42:35
  Psychotherapist. How long have you actually got
• 42:37
  to go before you become fully licensed?
• 42:40
  Well, it is a seven-year process in TOEFL and over about five and
• 42:46
  a half years through now, so I'm I'm now into the exciting final
• 42:51
  stage. Where are my official sort of
• 42:54
  contact hours will be ending, you know, with the actual tour
• 42:58
  aspect and then them out into the academic.
• 43:00
  Wilderness where I've got to write a great.
• 43:03
  Big 10,000 were dissertation, it's big for me.
• 43:06
  I know that's a lot for some and again, a big case study, but I
• 43:10
  was like that's going to be hard if I understood correctly as
• 43:13
  well. There that you have actually had
• 43:15
  clients as part of this training.
• 43:18
  Is that right very much. So, yeah, and I think it
• 43:21
  although it started off with a sense of sort of training
• 43:25
  wheels. I'm just going to, let's just
• 43:27
  see what experience I can get. I think that I feel very a lot
• 43:32
  more confident that the moment in my practice.
• 43:34
  It feels very, I feel more solid in what I do solid in terms of I
• 43:40
  know what my Approach is and have what my style is, but how
• 43:45
  does it work? I mean, okay.
• 43:47
  So you're training. You're not like officially
• 43:48
  license, but you're a training. Do you like have someone
• 43:54
  monitoring you at all times? Or is it just kind of like they
• 43:56
  check in once in a while and you're just lucky I guess.
• 44:00
  Okay, so they're constantly someone there with it.
• 44:03
  That's right. So so there's a couple of sort
• 44:06
  of structural things that support the trainee.
• 44:10
  So firstly of course, there's the support of the college
• 44:13
  itself. Contact constant training
• 44:17
  reflecting on difficulties that you might have.
• 44:20
  Then you've got professional supervision.
• 44:22
  This is the place where you might take that clients case for
• 44:26
  support because you wouldn't really talk about it, you know,
• 44:29
  or name that Shouldn't all really get into it with anybody
• 44:33
  really other than that person and you've got your own therapy.
• 44:37
  All of these things are training requirements.
• 44:40
  And then, on top of that, you've got group peer supervision, and
• 44:43
  these are things that go on week on, we can wait.
• 44:45
  So there's a huge network of support around the any given
• 44:50
  relationship. Yeah, so that's and the last
• 44:57
  thing is being a member of a body.
• 44:59
  So the so in this case, U KC P, UK counseling.
• 45:03
  And Psychotherapy institution is what, being a member of that as
• 45:07
  a trainee with professional Indemnity insurance, and all of
• 45:10
  that sort of stuff is what allows you to go ahead with
• 45:14
  professional practice. While you're training to what
• 45:17
  your main goals with regards to being a psychotherapist.
• 45:21
  Like, what do you want to hope to achieve?
• 45:24
  well, that's interesting because I think where I, where I started
• 45:32
  off was, you know, at the very beginning of the training, the
• 45:35
  position I was in was there was something of a panic like, what,
• 45:39
  what, let's go further back a little bit.
• 45:41
  There was a sense of panic right after uni, because I was quite
• 45:45
  lost individual quite a sort of depressed individual.
• 45:48
  But still with this narrative, I must in order to make life, to
• 45:52
  be good to make life. Okay.
• 45:54
  I have to get on, I have to become something, just pick
• 45:57
  something, don't don't dally, you know.
• 46:00
  Was a real sense of anxiety to do that.
• 46:02
  And I had a go at being a teacher, believe it or not.
• 46:06
  So I didn't go all the way through.
• 46:08
  I only did like a couple of months before I thought, you
• 46:11
  know, what? Oh, my God.
• 46:12
  And what did you teach it was going to be Secondary School,
• 46:17
  history. I know it.
• 46:19
  I know, but you be a great teacher though.
• 46:22
  That's the thing. I know.
• 46:25
  Well, maybe make well, I see you.
• 46:27
  Is this thing, the brogues and the waist.
• 46:30
  Go. And then why?
• 46:32
  Yes, welcome to City. Interwar British politics.
• 46:39
  Dude, another soap. It.
• 46:43
  No. No, you know, I would have I
• 46:45
  think but a couple of things that help me back and I'm trying
• 46:49
  to keep in mind the question. I was answering originally, but
• 46:52
  I will Circle back but there's a little history teacher caveat.
• 46:56
  I've got that feedback for people before your demeanor the
• 47:00
  way you Eat whatever lens to the, you know, are you a
• 47:03
  teacher? I get on my tits outlines all
• 47:05
  the time. No talk.
• 47:08
  But the thing that stopped me was the idea that I would be
• 47:12
  having to teach essentially the same thing each time again, and
• 47:15
  again, and, you know, make these lovely relationships with people
• 47:20
  with students and getting a bond with folks and then they move on
• 47:24
  and the next draft. And I stay still and they move
• 47:27
  through. And I think I found school to
• 47:30
  become. Quite a traumatic place in the
• 47:32
  end, you know, full of expectation.
• 47:34
  Full of you've got to be, you know, bright Elite, you know,
• 47:39
  you've got to prove yourself or whatever, you know, very, very
• 47:42
  harsh conditioning and I think the there's something about
• 47:47
  being close to that in hindsight that felt really uncomfortable.
• 47:52
  And I think that, you know, it was, there was something of a
• 47:55
  rush in it. I tried to do my research.
• 47:57
  I tried to speak to teachers, do my shadowing.
• 48:00
  Get a sense that yes, I can do it.
• 48:02
  But as soon as the huge stack of training folders organizational
• 48:08
  staff might have old depressed mind, just couldn't handle it.
• 48:12
  I thought I do not want this enough to put up with this for
• 48:16
  the next year. Like they cram a pgce into a
• 48:20
  year which and it deserves so much more time, and I thought I
• 48:23
  do not have the stress threshold to handle this and I'm really
• 48:28
  really happy that I left. When so when you did that when
• 48:33
  you made that decision, obviously, you would depress
• 48:35
  that the time, I mean, how did you feel?
• 48:39
  I mean, I'm a gin. It must have been a relief, but
• 48:41
  were you scared to do? You wonder like, what the hell
• 48:45
  am I going to do? Where, where where was your head
• 48:47
  up? Absolutely.
• 48:48
  Yeah, there were there was a definitely sense of bottoming
• 48:51
  out like the world, they do. Oh my God, there is no sense of
• 48:55
  structure. There's no sense of direction
• 48:57
  beneath me. I feel really lost in the world.
• 49:00
  I was a horrible experience, but I think one this is that I
• 49:03
  actually necessarily had to feel, you know, it, I had to
• 49:07
  drop to let go to get off the educational career, conveyor
• 49:10
  belt to get a different sort of perspective on what life's
• 49:14
  actually about. You know, I've always wanted to
• 49:16
  write a book called The Power of no, you know, that there's this
• 49:20
  book called The Power of. Now I want to do a little
• 49:22
  tongue-in-cheek twist because it's like the impact of the
• 49:25
  know. Sometimes you can be so
• 49:27
  positive. I'm going to say no to Something
• 49:32
  I just add to that. I remember, I turned down the
• 49:34
  job when I was very young. It's the only decision I look
• 49:39
  back on and I wonder to myself because you know, you are
• 49:43
  sometimes you have like that one decision that you made and
• 49:45
  things could be. So totally different in my life
• 49:47
  when in a different way. So I was 18 and I just Okay, so
• 49:56
  there was this like big opportunity to get this job
• 49:59
  through a family member like a relative of a relative relative
• 50:05
  that kind of thing and the cock. The job was for like a big, big
• 50:10
  Finance Company, like a big deal.
• 50:12
  Right? And I'm 18 and I'm very stubborn
• 50:15
  and, you know, kind of, like, I don't know what I want to do.
• 50:18
  You know. I wanted to pursue music back
• 50:20
  then. I was, I didn't know what I
• 50:22
  wanted to do. I knew.
• 50:23
  I didn't want to go to UNI straight away, but I hadn't
• 50:27
  completely ruled it out. But I was kind of just a bit
• 50:29
  unhappy at that time in my life and I didn't really didn't
• 50:32
  really have much hope for anything.
• 50:34
  I just kind of felt like a bit of a waster and I remember I was
• 50:41
  interviewing for the supermarket job and I was interviewing for
• 50:44
  this big business job and it would have basically been like
• 50:47
  a, the way it was laid out to me was like, oh, you'll be like
• 50:53
  Admin assistant for this like brokerage firm is broker.
• 50:57
  And basically you be like a glorified PA that would just run
• 51:01
  around, chasing them trying to get them to fill out expenses
• 51:06
  forms and all they're so elusive, these Brokers and ha,
• 51:10
  ha good luck with that. And I remember the first thing
• 51:13
  that one of the women said, as I was walking through, the
• 51:15
  building was, huh. It's a race to the weekend here,
• 51:19
  which I kind of giggled at first, but now, look back in
• 51:21
  retrospect, like, wow, they all must have Hated their jobs if
• 51:24
  they thought like that, I literally, because that that
• 51:27
  that's another way of saying, I hate my job.
• 51:29
  I hate my life. I live for the weekend because
• 51:31
  it's the only time away from this hell hole.
• 51:34
  But you know, yes, they had the standard nice Swanky offices in
• 51:38
  London, like wow. And that that didn't actually
• 51:41
  impress me at all because I had studied business for years at
• 51:43
  that point and I was just like I saw all that Bierce and the
• 51:47
  corporate beers, but well it's like as when it finishes I just
• 51:52
  want to throw this Read to you and see what you think of it is
• 51:56
  us talking about like how major decision can.
• 52:03
  Frame everything. And it was a big know for me
• 52:06
  because I went into this interview and this job by all.
• 52:09
  Intents and purposes was a thousand times better than the
• 52:12
  supermarket job that I was considering.
• 52:14
  And most people listening to this or think you're insane.
• 52:17
  Why would you go not go for this Finance job?
• 52:20
  When you and and there was a shoo-in that's like I went into
• 52:24
  this interview. I didn't really care and I got
• 52:27
  the job anyway. Asks, like what?
• 52:28
  I've got the job and I didn't care like what the fuck?
• 52:31
  But I said, Wonderful. I said, no, because at the time
• 52:36
  and I still stand by this decision.
• 52:39
  I felt that I knew. I wasn't good at Finance.
• 52:42
  I've never been good at finance. My strengths have always lied in
• 52:47
  creativity and that sphere of things, certainly in the
• 52:51
  business perspective. So, I knew I would suck at this
• 52:53
  job and it didn't matter how much training I'd have.
• 52:55
  I would hate it, and it's not to say that working in a
• 52:59
  supermarket was much better. But at the same time, I knew
• 53:03
  what I had with that, and I knew that it would be tough, but it
• 53:06
  wouldn't be forever. And it's true.
• 53:08
  It did last longer than I wanted it to, but I just felt like, out
• 53:11
  of the, two of them. That was the situation that made
• 53:14
  more sense, and it would enable me to do my band still and Etc.
• 53:17
  Right? And so I said no, and I remember
• 53:21
  my time, my family were quite a few of them were like, oh my
• 53:26
  God, I can't believe you said, no, to this, like, what's wrong
• 53:29
  with you? Did it and I had to deal with
• 53:30
  all that and I said, what I said, You that, you know, I knew
• 53:34
  it wasn't right for me. I felt that it wasn't right for
• 53:36
  me. And it was a decision and a bad
• 53:39
  choice. So I said no.
• 53:40
  And for years afterwards, I wondered about that.
• 53:44
  It wasn't too. I went to University that I
• 53:46
  really felt like, okay. You know what?
• 53:49
  That was the right decision because if I had of said, yes
• 53:52
  and got into that sphere, I would have got sucked up into
• 53:54
  that. I probably wouldn't have ended
• 53:56
  up going to University and who knows where I'll be.
• 53:59
  Maybe I'd still be working in that industry.
• 54:01
  I don't know, but there's so many thing as I think.
• 54:04
  There's so many things that I've done since then.
• 54:06
  Like I went to UNI I lived in Europe did all these different
• 54:10
  career paths and now we're back to creative Endeavors and
• 54:14
  pursuing that those goals. But it's like they all started
• 54:17
  from that know, Yeah, that's it. That's what it takes.
• 54:23
  I mean, it's it's a lovely story because it gets you thinking.
• 54:27
  Yeah. Yeah, about the value of know
• 54:29
  and also about, you know, it's like what is a good decision?
• 54:34
  You know, I'm really interested in how a person comes to even
• 54:38
  make a decision about anything, really?
• 54:40
  Ultimately because I think one of my favorite quotes is Soren
• 54:45
  Kierkegaard, who says we live life forwards and we understand
• 54:48
  it back. Which so we're sort of moving
• 54:52
  through the world. Actually really quite blind as
• 54:54
  to really what to do. We have in any in any present
• 54:57
  moment. I think that we have a sense of
• 55:01
  perspective of what one should do in the world and yet at the
• 55:04
  same time when you, when you don't have this constant
• 55:07
  ideation with who you need to become and what we need to do,
• 55:11
  there is a life unfolding nonetheless.
• 55:14
  So it's like, you know your decision to not go for that job
• 55:18
  means That your life is taking a different quarter, different
• 55:22
  trajectory. And it's like, what a lovely
• 55:24
  perspective to hold, which is like, I'm just interested in
• 55:27
  this process. How its unfolding.
• 55:30
  I'm, I am a process. I am not a product that has to
• 55:33
  become a particular type product.
• 55:36
  You know, that's this Swanky professional shiny office box
• 55:40
  image, that we might have had at one point ourselves.
• 55:44
  I've got to become this person, and I found that because I just
• 55:48
  a circle back around to your First question, which is what I
• 55:51
  intend to do will be as a therapist.
• 55:53
  I realize I didn't actually answer that.
• 55:55
  So I fell into working in a crappy sales, job and awful.
• 56:00
  Builders Merchants this place that, you know, made fun of me
• 56:04
  because of the way I spoke. Like I had fallen utterly from
• 56:09
  from the high heights of set of pot private school, but then all
• 56:13
  this stuff that messed up and went.
• 56:15
  Wow Earth, am I here? And I'm so glad that I got
• 56:19
  there. Because it's like, you know,
• 56:22
  when you read a story, any story of an adventure story, every
• 56:26
  single, when you finish reading the whole thing, each individual
• 56:30
  thing that happened, make sense as a whole.
• 56:33
  So I think it is always an error in a sense to say.
• 56:38
  Oh I did that wrong. I should never have done that.
• 56:41
  You know, what is the function of regrets other than to get us
• 56:46
  into a place where we can't feel happy about ourselves.
• 56:49
  What's the point of that? You know, I will add to that
• 56:52
  though. The I only believe in the
• 56:58
  context of regrets if you didn't take opportunities and chances,
• 57:03
  you didn't gamble on yourself. Okay?
• 57:05
  Yeah, because I know what you mean is a balance.
• 57:08
  Well, okay, look at everything bad that's happened in your
• 57:11
  life. The bad things that have
• 57:12
  happened to you. Nine times out of 10.
• 57:15
  It will be things that were out of your control.
• 57:20
  And so what do you look at? You look at all.
• 57:22
  Well, if I hadn't have gone for this job, then, you know, I
• 57:25
  wouldn't have It's this and therefore it's my fall or you
• 57:28
  know, if I hadn't been doing dating this person.
• 57:30
  Then therefore nothing bad would have ever happened.
• 57:33
  It's like, no look. Bad stuff happens all the time
• 57:35
  in life. Life is like this.
• 57:36
  Like I give an example today. I ordered a quick bit of
• 57:40
  breakfast from Starbucks, right? And one of the things didn't
• 57:46
  come, and I remember it's funny because I constantly rely on my
• 57:49
  own feelings and how I feel about things and it's almost
• 57:53
  like a superpower. It's like I known what the In is
• 57:56
  when you handed me the bag, I knew it was like, I was like,
• 58:00
  and I was like, oh anything else, is that all?
• 58:02
  That's it? And I'm thinking, that's not
• 58:04
  right, put it down. Naturally.
• 58:06
  It's missing something. Now.
• 58:07
  If this had been five or six years ago, I would have had an
• 58:10
  absolute meltdown and been like, oh no.
• 58:13
  Oh, this is terrible, you know, but today and it's I think this
• 58:17
  shows how far I've come and how I now, look at life.
• 58:21
  Yeah, eyes. And the lows, I looked at it in
• 58:23
  a positive light. I was like, you know what?
• 58:24
  I'm trying to save her. Lose weight and get in better
• 58:28
  shape. I ordered two things, one of
• 58:33
  which was healthy. The other thing was not and the
• 58:35
  healthy thing came. The unhealthy thing didn't come
• 58:38
  and I just looked at that like, yeah, I was like, you know,
• 58:40
  maybe that's just Fates way of saying hey stick to this healthy
• 58:42
  stuff man. Yeah.
• 58:45
  Well, it's one of my favorite phrases in general is from golf,
• 58:49
  play it as it lies, and I love that phrase, play it, as it
• 58:53
  lies. So it's like, or in fact, my
• 58:55
  wife, that He says, work basically work with what you've
• 58:58
  got. And it's like, yeah, what, what
• 59:00
  have I got like? What it, what experience, what
• 59:04
  event is upon me, right now? What, how am I going to choose
• 59:08
  to respond to it? But I say this to my light, my
• 59:11
  livestream Community, sometimes, whenever I'm having a bad day,
• 59:14
  like I had one the other day and I said, in the midst of, that
• 59:16
  was like, well, look, you know, I'll always be honest with you
• 59:19
  and tell you when I'm feeling bad and when I'm not happy about
• 59:23
  things, like I voiced my frustrations about, For
• 59:26
  instance, this podcast, not achieving the high numbers
• 59:30
  despite media for nearly two years or, you know, when I got
• 59:35
  big on my main Tick-Tock account and I thought, oh, this is the
• 59:38
  beginning of something amazing, and then it stagnated.
• 59:41
  And now it's dead and, you know, or for instance, me constantly,
• 59:44
  trying to me failing. My goal last year of getting to
• 59:47
  1000 subscribers on YouTube or me trying to grow my following
• 59:50
  on Instagram. Like it's it's Relentless, but
• 59:54
  at the same time there were He's good things happening.
• 59:58
  Whilst there are disappointing things happening.
• 1:00:00
  And it's like, you have to try and force yourself to focus on
• 1:00:04
  the good stuff. You have to.
• 1:00:06
  You have to frame it in that way.
• 1:00:08
  Like, for example, I still get to do this show.
• 1:00:11
  I love doing this show. When it comes to the acting
• 1:00:14
  goals that I'm working towards. I'm now getting paid to do that.
• 1:00:18
  I'm not, I'm not where I wanna be, but I'm certainly much
• 1:00:22
  closer than I was when I first started, you know, and it's
• 1:00:27
  constantly moving forward. It's constantly pursuing your
• 1:00:30
  goals. Even if you're not living the
• 1:00:32
  life, you want to live. What are you doing in your life
• 1:00:35
  right now to try and get to where you want to be?
• 1:00:38
  And also what's going right in your life.
• 1:00:41
  There's always good things going on the show and I'd love to add
• 1:00:46
  to that inversely is that you know, like some folks for some
• 1:00:50
  people that really get on and have a get on culture.
• 1:00:56
  Themselves and actually, get on the expectation of themselves.
• 1:00:59
  Let's say a workaholic that a in a broad sense.
• 1:01:04
  Yeah, me too. But so in a broad sense, what
• 1:01:08
  the getting on with it? So what is it that ultimately
• 1:01:11
  needs to be gotten on with? So if if one can suffer from
• 1:01:16
  one's work Hollis and from one's get up and go from that drive.
• 1:01:19
  You know, what is it? That's informing it.
• 1:01:21
  Is it a? I've got to get somewhere
• 1:01:23
  because where I am is not okay. Okay, then the work of that
• 1:01:28
  person, it be getting on with it needs to take a different form.
• 1:01:32
  A, I'm okay to, to do to be who I am, as I am like this, right
• 1:01:38
  now. Maybe I need to have a low
• 1:01:40
  period. Maybe I need to have a
• 1:01:42
  vulnerable period or a time to step away from something that
• 1:01:45
  I've been stuck on. So there's there's so many ways
• 1:01:48
  in which someone can do prove me Progressive positive steps in
• 1:01:52
  their life. That doesn't just have to be
• 1:01:55
  one. A pigeon hole, you know?
• 1:01:58
  One thing I thought you were going to say before, but you
• 1:02:01
  didn't say it, but I want to add because I think it's important.
• 1:02:04
  Is this idea that, you know, when you look back at your life,
• 1:02:09
  you said, you look at everything and it makes sense.
• 1:02:12
  And often I try to do that. I've certainly in more recent
• 1:02:16
  years. I've been reflecting with
• 1:02:17
  everything that's happened in the years gone by, and I look at
• 1:02:21
  it always like one big story chapters within a story.
• 1:02:24
  If one day, I am. It should be sick.
• 1:02:26
  Successful. And at the point that I want to
• 1:02:28
  be, then there's gotta be a story that got there.
• 1:02:34
  You know, I mean, you don't get anywhere in life without trials
• 1:02:37
  and tribulations. It's just how life works.
• 1:02:40
  And if you think about every single person you've ever been
• 1:02:43
  inspired by like, you know, okay, acting I'm a big, I want
• 1:02:46
  to be a professional actor. So I want to do and one of my
• 1:02:50
  heroes opportune. Oh, as I recall, Was either
• 1:02:55
  homeless or like, he had like no money at all when he was filming
• 1:03:00
  The Godfather. Nothing.
• 1:03:01
  He was nothing to escape believe that, you know, yeah, and then
• 1:03:05
  what happened. It was one of the biggest movies
• 1:03:08
  ever made and hit. Look at his career since then,
• 1:03:11
  but it's like it's a catalyst Johnny Depp never example, I
• 1:03:15
  looked into his career, but my god, I've got a lot in common
• 1:03:18
  with that guy. I really can relate to that,
• 1:03:21
  that man. Wanted to be a musician, didn't
• 1:03:25
  work out. Same here.
• 1:03:28
  He spent a considerable amount of time, homeless and then
• 1:03:32
  through a friend who recommended acting to him, he got into it.
• 1:03:36
  That was exactly the same as how it was for me.
• 1:03:38
  Someone at work few years back had suggested an acting role.
• 1:03:42
  And I've never even thought about acting ever as a concept.
• 1:03:46
  I was like, oh sure. Why not?
• 1:03:49
  That be fun. And then I did it and I loved
• 1:03:52
  it. I fell in love with it and
• 1:03:55
  That's great. If it's the story, isn't it?
• 1:03:57
  It's the story of you and the story of you all stained.
• 1:04:01
  Yes to have twists and turns to get to the good stuff.
• 1:04:05
  Exactly. And let's say, you know, I am
• 1:04:09
  particularly interested in this topic because I have always
• 1:04:12
  suffered. I think it's been a source of
• 1:04:15
  great low, self-esteem or depression at times, when I'm
• 1:04:20
  holding myself to a standard that I can never reach.
• 1:04:23
  It's sort of like a what like like chasing the pink dragon as
• 1:04:27
  it's called like constantly chasing this.
• 1:04:30
  Well in the sense of what an addict might do.
• 1:04:32
  Oh, it's a phrase within that that addict culture.
• 1:04:36
  We're chasing the pink Dragon always trying to.
• 1:04:38
  Should I catch the elusive thing that you can't all the carrot on
• 1:04:42
  the stick trying to become self improvement, Miller self better,
• 1:04:47
  get my career going, get this, get that and I think the more
• 1:04:50
  that becomes a preoccupation The more, I think it detract from a,
• 1:04:56
  I like, who I am right now, or I like you.
• 1:04:59
  I am becoming I like the process of living in whatever.
• 1:05:04
  Mysterious nebulous way that it is.
• 1:05:08
  It's like, if you can't stand where you are, and go, I'm
• 1:05:12
  flawed. But I haven't experienced as
• 1:05:15
  though. I'm not where I want to be.
• 1:05:17
  I feel a bit lost. But can you love that about
• 1:05:20
  yourself? That's the question.
• 1:05:22
  Can you? Because Does the irony is that
• 1:05:25
  if you're able to generally enjoy the process that you're on
• 1:05:28
  the ship that you're on? However ideal you may think it
• 1:05:31
  is a resistant. Its you're more likely to
• 1:05:34
  produce and become the sort of person that achieves these
• 1:05:37
  things anyway. One thing I've started thinking
• 1:05:41
  about a lot with regards to this, is that any time, there's
• 1:05:44
  a bad moment that can potentially be a story because
• 1:05:49
  as you know, like, I love telling stories.
• 1:05:52
  I love telling stories on the show.
• 1:05:53
  I love telling stories on live streams in conversations.
• 1:05:56
  It's part of life. It's what we do.
• 1:05:57
  It's how we connect. We tell stories, we laugh about
• 1:06:01
  the bad times in our life and it's fun and it makes you more
• 1:06:04
  engaging and interesting. And real I think in some cases,
• 1:06:07
  absolutely about a week ago. It was my birthday.
• 1:06:10
  And we were walking around. Thank you.
• 1:06:13
  And we're walking around Manchester City Centre and we
• 1:06:16
  just finished a meal and we just get our, we would should we go
• 1:06:21
  do karaoke? Yeah.
• 1:06:22
  Sure. Why not?
• 1:06:22
  I'll be a laughs. Yeah, and we go outside this
• 1:06:26
  place. It was maybe 7 p.m.
• 1:06:30
  Maybe a bit early, but it's Thursday night, you know, there
• 1:06:33
  could be some karaoke on. Maybe maybe it looked open the
• 1:06:36
  door was open and there's a car outside with a grumpy looking
• 1:06:39
  guy. Why still don't know what his
• 1:06:42
  problem is, but I'll get to him. So we're kind of like, all three
• 1:06:45
  of us, you know, like three stooges, not really knowing what
• 1:06:47
  we're doing. Like who's going in first after
• 1:06:49
  you after you that we don't know what we're doing, but we're all
• 1:06:52
  thinking about the concept of of maybe going in there and just
• 1:06:55
  having a little, you know, we've had a few drinks by this point
• 1:06:59
  when I are. This will be fun.
• 1:07:01
  Yeah, and as we're deciding and not really paying attention,
• 1:07:06
  this Chi is like, what are you doing?
• 1:07:10
  Could you see? It's closed and we all just look
• 1:07:12
  at the door, which is quite clearly open and we're just like
• 1:07:15
  yes and look back at him and he's like, who it screws.
• 1:07:19
  You can't go in fucking hell mate, and then just like posts
• 1:07:23
  toward us and then through the door annoyed and we all just
• 1:07:26
  look at each other. Like and then we walk away and
• 1:07:31
  we were just laughing about it. And yeah back and he comes out.
• 1:07:35
  He looks at us. Awkwardly and looks away and
• 1:07:37
  just like tries to sort of like hide.
• 1:07:40
  And now now it's become an in-joke with us.
• 1:07:43
  So like any time we're talking about anything and just be like,
• 1:07:49
  hey, so I had I don't know eggs for lunch, you like fucking hell
• 1:07:52
  mate, and this it just I don't know.
• 1:07:54
  It just makes us laugh. That's fantastic.
• 1:07:57
  That's the thing that that was a bad moment and that, that could
• 1:08:00
  have been like ruining think. I could have been like, I really
• 1:08:03
  wanted to do carrier in that was ruined or you can just see that
• 1:08:06
  as a really hilarious moment that we'll always have.
• 1:08:11
  Well, there's something, there's something delightfully absurd in
• 1:08:14
  that story. So, absurd, it makes me think,
• 1:08:17
  you know, it's like, any bad moment can be, can be relished.
• 1:08:21
  You know, I think, I think Monty Python cat gets this across
• 1:08:24
  very, very well liked in life. Brian in meaning of life, in
• 1:08:29
  particular, where they even make comedy about death.
• 1:08:33
  They could even in death funny. So like, you know, the guy
• 1:08:36
  that's running along the cliff and he's okay.
• 1:08:40
  He's going to go over and then he's chosen like this man who's
• 1:08:44
  chosen his own manner of death. And then there's all the ladies
• 1:08:49
  topless like with their crash helmet is chasing him and then
• 1:08:53
  there's something so wonderfully like, yeah.
• 1:08:55
  Life's random is Hecht. Like so you've got this guy that
• 1:08:58
  gets out again out at crashes, through hilarious, or that or
• 1:09:03
  that in the end, like when there's a huge disaster.
• 1:09:07
  I don't know in the end. I just find it.
• 1:09:09
  Absolutely. Hello.
• 1:09:10
  Is no tsunami hilarious. No, it's not.
• 1:09:18
  I mean and then I want to draw a distinction between.
• 1:09:24
  Yeah. Death destruction.
• 1:09:28
  Very funny. Hilarious laughing.
• 1:09:32
  It's like, you know, after all of the tragedy all of the human
• 1:09:35
  tragedy, all of the Care. All of the everything there is.
• 1:09:40
  An even bigger Grand narrative, which is like, look at the, the
• 1:09:43
  Folly of Human Experience of tragedy of what we, how we all
• 1:09:48
  behave, how random is this bizarre thing that we call
• 1:09:52
  Consciousness? Where, you know, there's death
• 1:09:55
  here. And, you know, this there it's
• 1:09:59
  made his mental out there. I really enjoy that.
• 1:10:03
  It's been like a coping mechanism, though, isn't it?
• 1:10:05
  You know, like, mocking like even mocking the taboo.
• 1:10:10
  Things mocking death, I mean, death is not funny.
• 1:10:13
  But death, is we all share it. It's a big part of life.
• 1:10:18
  Why can't you joke about it? You know, I mean, why not laugh
• 1:10:21
  about the Ridiculousness of life, I mean, life is
• 1:10:23
  ridiculous. Yeah, if life, if life were a
• 1:10:26
  comedy life would just be the most ridiculous out there,
• 1:10:29
  comedy. You've ever seen it?
• 1:10:30
  Just be some wacky stuff on Channel 4 and you're just
• 1:10:33
  looking at all. What the fuck is this?
• 1:10:35
  What for sure. Is it funny?
• 1:10:37
  I guess it's funny. What?
• 1:10:40
  Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's like it's possible for life
• 1:10:44
  to be an object of ridicule whilst also being respectful of
• 1:10:48
  it. Yeah, that that there's a way to
• 1:10:51
  be to have humor as part of how you approach life.
• 1:10:57
  So I think you need a healthy slice of humor.
• 1:11:00
  And if it suddenly falls into disrespecting, your experience
• 1:11:03
  that that's like, I find everything funny because I can't
• 1:11:07
  cope with how unbearable in sense that Different.
• 1:11:09
  But if they can feel the stuff and find it funny, if they're
• 1:11:14
  always has, and it's like, my dad.
• 1:11:16
  My dad has like, this really funny sense of humor, and I've
• 1:11:19
  got it too. We just like to be sarcastic
• 1:11:21
  about everything and just like and and I remember, we were at
• 1:11:24
  my great man's funeral. And so basically, Yeah,
• 1:11:34
  obviously, obviously people are upset and of things funeral and
• 1:11:36
  with there and we're showing respect.
• 1:11:38
  But I remember that my granddad had like, like Pat it that the
• 1:11:45
  casket like three times. Like, you know, I I'll be with
• 1:11:49
  you one day again, cut you like the, like my dad said, it's like
• 1:11:52
  he thinks he's fucking dull. Boy, little boy.
• 1:11:57
  And he turns to me during the funeral service and says that to
• 1:12:03
  me. And I'm having to stop myself
• 1:12:05
  laughing. We're at the funeral, because I
• 1:12:08
  can see, my pool grounded, like crying and then just, yeah, I
• 1:12:12
  could go for it. Well, that's it.
• 1:12:17
  I think the human experience has to include every side of it.
• 1:12:22
  You know, there's you know, look at a funeral.
• 1:12:25
  There's always someone, that's taking it.
• 1:12:27
  Really seriously, that's in a particular moment.
• 1:12:29
  There's someone else that that's finding it a bit funny or
• 1:12:32
  someone. That's a bit.
• 1:12:33
  Balu for a bit bored or but that that is the true multicolored
• 1:12:37
  facet of Human Experience, right?
• 1:12:39
  And I remember similarly being at a funeral in, which this son.
• 1:12:45
  I'm a of the mother who had died.
• 1:12:48
  I was with them and then they and they were saying, I just
• 1:12:54
  don't know what to what to do to start off with.
• 1:12:57
  And I'd known him for long enough to know that there's a
• 1:13:00
  sense of humor to that and I felt To say, well, how about is
• 1:13:05
  the theme to we could have laughing policeman, you know,
• 1:13:08
  the old school really funny? Like this is hold track
• 1:13:12
  soundtrack. Oh, yeah, which which which,
• 1:13:14
  which would have been completely and utterly inappropriate and
• 1:13:18
  absurd and yet he said the the laughs I got out of that.
• 1:13:22
  It was it was you said it to me with such respects and yet it
• 1:13:27
  made me. It tickled the so much like when
• 1:13:30
  I was doing my speech, I was really nervous about such a
• 1:13:33
  giving this heartfelt speech and then your might remembering
• 1:13:36
  every now and again the Laughing policeman gives you that little
• 1:13:39
  bit of bearing to go there. It's not just utter tragedy in
• 1:13:45
  death. What's perspective, isn't it?
• 1:13:48
  I mean, I think I personally believe death is, you know,
• 1:13:55
  death is not the end. It's a transition if you like
• 1:14:00
  and I think the only time I've ever really been upset with
• 1:14:04
  death is when it's too soon for someone dark.
• 1:14:09
  I remember go. I remember going to someone's
• 1:14:10
  funeral when I was like 17. It was actually kind of
• 1:14:15
  beautiful. There was someone that went to
• 1:14:17
  our sixth form and he had a disease called Muscular
• 1:14:22
  Dystrophy. And remember?
• 1:14:25
  The doctors had said to him, apparently, when he was, because
• 1:14:30
  he was it, like, up until about the age, You have 9 or 10.
• 1:14:33
  I think he he was just like a normal lad playing football, you
• 1:14:35
  know, just doing his business and you know, and then one day
• 1:14:39
  he gets diagnosed with this illness and he starts
• 1:14:42
  deteriorating my physically and he's confined to a wheelchair.
• 1:14:45
  So by the time that I meet him at age 10 or 11 in secondary
• 1:14:50
  school, he's clearly combined to his wheelchair, but he had like
• 1:14:54
  this. Just amazing sense of humor,
• 1:14:56
  like just, you know, really made the most of life in despite of
• 1:15:01
  that. That and is good, dude, and I
• 1:15:04
  remember. Gosh, shit.
• 1:15:08
  That was like the most shocking. So I did I see planned to go
• 1:15:11
  into this but I feel I should share.
• 1:15:12
  It's okay. Okay, but I remember we were in
• 1:15:16
  sixth form and he was in my general studies class.
• 1:15:24
  I remember that. Yeah, he was always there with
• 1:15:26
  this lady that would help him. Like I can't, I can't remember
• 1:15:29
  what she would do because he was really intelligent.
• 1:15:31
  By the way. He was the a star student so
• 1:15:34
  intelligent, so I know Not sure what she would do to help him.
• 1:15:38
  I guess, maybe just help him with, getting things or writing
• 1:15:43
  something. She helped him in some way.
• 1:15:45
  And I remember that they were always there every single
• 1:15:47
  lesson. And one week, they weren't.
• 1:15:52
  And I was last word and I think it actually might have even been
• 1:15:55
  a few weeks actually, and it's been like, a wonder where Ben is
• 1:15:58
  at. And then the form tutor comes
• 1:16:05
  in, or the teacher comes in. She looks.
• 1:16:06
  It got very serious and this is a woman who's quite sarcastic
• 1:16:10
  little time. So it's like, oh, what's going
• 1:16:12
  on? And then she just tells us and
• 1:16:16
  we're all like, wow, damn, because we all know that we all
• 1:16:22
  knew like how muscular dystrophy works in the like he got to 17.
• 1:16:29
  I think and generally speaking, if you've been diagnosed with it
• 1:16:33
  from, from a young age, you're not really supposed to last that
• 1:16:36
  long. Long.
• 1:16:36
  So it's kind of amazing. Okay, and apparently he knew
• 1:16:42
  which is even more incredible. He knew that he probably
• 1:16:44
  wouldn't have very long then he still lived life to its fullest
• 1:16:48
  and I remember fast forward to the funeral.
• 1:16:52
  That was kind of like an open invitation.
• 1:16:54
  It was low light. Let's go to Ben's funeral and we
• 1:17:00
  all did like I remember there was like, at least a hundred
• 1:17:03
  hundred and fifty people from our sixth form.
• 1:17:07
  It was it was it was yeah, it's beautiful service very sad, and
• 1:17:11
  I remember just being upset and crying and I wasn't like close
• 1:17:15
  to been like, we talked a lot, you know, and he was a good
• 1:17:18
  dude, but we weren't like close friends or anything.
• 1:17:19
  But I remember just being really upset and frustrated because I
• 1:17:22
  was like, this is, this is a really good guy, a smart guy and
• 1:17:26
  like he doesn't get to keep living but then there's then
• 1:17:30
  there's like plenty. And I'm not saying anyone
• 1:17:31
  deserves not to live because, of course not.
• 1:17:33
  But you know, It's like there are some people that are
• 1:17:38
  miserable and angry and take it out in the world and just never
• 1:17:41
  make the most of their lives. And here's a guy who's like, put
• 1:17:44
  everything into life and he's checking out early and it's like
• 1:17:51
  that just doesn't seem fair and I didn't when I think about
• 1:17:54
  death. There's been a lot of people.
• 1:17:57
  Similar situations, unfortunately, some of them
• 1:18:00
  taking their lives and I think about that.
• 1:18:03
  That's the only part of death that I don't like, because I
• 1:18:05
  think that deaf, you know, death is a good thing because we all
• 1:18:10
  we should have beginnings and endings.
• 1:18:12
  That things shouldn't go on forever.
• 1:18:14
  I mean, think about your favorite TV show that goes on
• 1:18:16
  for past more seasons than it should do that when with his
• 1:18:20
  shit, The Arches, you're no longer really necessarily
• 1:18:25
  interested in what? Anything that's happening
• 1:18:28
  because it's just, the artist has been running for so long
• 1:18:31
  that it's just, this sort of beige backdrop.
• 1:18:35
  This is a tough yet. These TV, serials like
• 1:18:38
  EastEnders and they never ever end.
• 1:18:43
  And it kind of makes me wonder. What's the point if it never
• 1:18:47
  ends. What's the point?
• 1:18:49
  Like, I actually feel like TV soap operas are like a great.
• 1:18:57
  Reflection of Life at its worst because like life should end it.
• 1:19:03
  Think about the best TV shows you ever seen.
• 1:19:06
  You know, it ended. It had a name you might not have
• 1:19:09
  liked the ending but it ended and you remember, the concerning
• 1:19:12
  as IEEE standards, like I think about times, I've seen, you
• 1:19:15
  know, that because I've been addicted to them all, no, not
• 1:19:18
  shitting on soap operas. Like, they're very addictive.
• 1:19:20
  They're good, but they're sure that everything's happened that
• 1:19:24
  can happen. And then everything.
• 1:19:27
  Happens again, and again, and again, and over and over and
• 1:19:31
  over. And it's like, don't get me
• 1:19:33
  wrong. There is a lot of routine in
• 1:19:35
  life and a lot of similarities and life.
• 1:19:36
  But if you want to shake things up, you do shake them up and
• 1:19:39
  that's why I embrace like that. Okay, you got to embrace the
• 1:19:45
  fact that life is always changing and it can't be the
• 1:19:49
  same forever. It has to change and that's a
• 1:19:51
  good thing and you got to go with it.
• 1:19:52
  And if you try to resist it you it's problematic.
• 1:19:55
  Whereas if you go with the flow, If it works, it works in a
• 1:19:58
  positive way, you know, yeah. Absolutely.
• 1:20:01
  Yes, I think so. Yeah.
• 1:20:03
  I mean, it's funny the thinking about change now.
• 1:20:09
  Yeah. To really, it's like, if we
• 1:20:14
  lived for, if we did live forever for all eternity.
• 1:20:17
  I wonder whether we would ever do anything, you know, it's not
• 1:20:20
  you know, for know, because you do everything that is possible.
• 1:20:23
  And it's like remember you ever watch Star Trek next Generation.
• 1:20:27
  Yes, I think it is. So there was a character called
• 1:20:30
  Q. Remember Q.
• 1:20:32
  Yes. So for those who never watched
• 1:20:33
  Star Trek, basically Q was an omnipotent being that couldn't
• 1:20:38
  die. He it if you like could travel
• 1:20:41
  through time and space do whatever they wanted all the
• 1:20:43
  time, Immortal Never Dies, right?
• 1:20:46
  And so, he'd kind of taken to just like annoying people and
• 1:20:49
  causing havoc and stuff, which I understand.
• 1:20:52
  But at the same time, I think the cool thing about the
• 1:20:54
  characters, it exposes the problem.
• 1:20:56
  Comes with being a live forever and how immortality would be a
• 1:21:01
  bad thing because you just, you would get bored.
• 1:21:04
  You do everything that's possible to be done.
• 1:21:06
  And then what what we got to do once everything's been done.
• 1:21:10
  Hmm, exactly. Here.
• 1:21:12
  You would just sit around doing nothing because there's nothing
• 1:21:14
  to do. You'd probably you probably wish
• 1:21:17
  for death. You'd wish for mortality.
• 1:21:19
  If you were in Mortal you'd wish for immortality there.
• 1:21:22
  I said it. It this got me hooking.
• 1:21:26
  Just have a little bit of psychotherapy stuff.
• 1:21:28
  It says, relevant to this, which is that, I always think.
• 1:21:34
  It's in a person. Like, in myself.
• 1:21:37
  Let's say I've got a deadline to hand something in and NSA or
• 1:21:42
  something, and I'll find myself kicking off against it
• 1:21:46
  procrastinating. Yeah, because I think, because
• 1:21:50
  on some level, one way of reading it.
• 1:21:52
  It's because I resent the fact that times passing, I resent the
• 1:21:57
  fact that there is a deadline, because ultimately, it tracks
• 1:22:00
  all the way to thinking about mortality.
• 1:22:02
  The clock is ticking. We are moving.
• 1:22:06
  We are that we are slowly dying. It's a finish which is a finish
• 1:22:09
  this essay. I'm gonna die.
• 1:22:10
  I'm gonna die. What's up?
• 1:22:11
  This is quite what I mean, but it's like it does it does get us
• 1:22:21
  into themes of mortality because it's like you only have a
• 1:22:24
  certain amount of time and you have a choice of how you want to
• 1:22:27
  respond to that. I need more time.
• 1:22:30
  There's not enough time or Or that's what there's a, let's get
• 1:22:36
  on. Let you know, let's just see
• 1:22:37
  what we can do in it. So, there's a certain amount of
• 1:22:40
  having to accept the limits of your time, the limits of your
• 1:22:44
  life, the limits of mortality, and what you can do, once you're
• 1:22:48
  able to come to terms of that. I think that that is one stage
• 1:22:51
  in materiality that we can reach, which is like right.
• 1:22:55
  I have a real healthy awareness of my mortality, my limited time
• 1:23:00
  in this world. What would I like to do with
• 1:23:03
  what I've got? No, I completely agree with you.
• 1:23:07
  The funny thing is now I've my life's changed where there were
• 1:23:10
  times when I hated life and I didn't want to live anymore.
• 1:23:13
  And I was just like this is going on forever.
• 1:23:16
  It take time. Time seemed to drag on so much
• 1:23:19
  that expression time flies, when you're having fun.
• 1:23:21
  That's true. Because when it sucks all my
• 1:23:24
  God, does it drag on, you know your clock watching.
• 1:23:27
  You just waste time now. Flies by like I can remember
• 1:23:30
  times waiting at bus stops and bring in.
• 1:23:33
  It's only like a vendor. But wait, half an hour, but it
• 1:23:34
  feels like an eternity. Whereas half an hour.
• 1:23:37
  Now. It goes by like five minutes.
• 1:23:39
  I'm slightly. And then I find myself
• 1:23:41
  constantly thinking, like, where does the time go?
• 1:23:43
  I don't have enough time to do all the things I need to do
• 1:23:46
  because it just flies by Becca say much of that I think is it's
• 1:23:51
  a perspective, you know, maybe because it's like, you know, if
• 1:23:55
  I'm if I'm doing I was at the gym earlier for an hour, you
• 1:23:59
  know, and like there's days where if I'm writing an essay,
• 1:24:03
  you know, and I Night, I could watch to a procrastinate, watch
• 1:24:06
  new episodes of Dragon Ball Z that hours gone, you know, and
• 1:24:09
  then a couple of minutes to, but it met the gym, and I'm lifting
• 1:24:13
  weights, that feels like a real long spacious dedicated session,
• 1:24:19
  you know, and my sense of timing that is, you know, I don't know.
• 1:24:24
  It feels a lot enjoyable. I get a longer.
• 1:24:29
  So, no, I agree. You lose yourself in task.
• 1:24:34
  It's in moments in things and it does fly by like life for me
• 1:24:38
  right now is flying by. But I think it's because I'm
• 1:24:41
  busy and I'm enjoying what I'm doing for the most part.
• 1:24:45
  Yeah, I like it and I really live in those in those moments
• 1:24:49
  and experiences now. Yeah, I found myself.
• 1:24:53
  Was I find myself? Kind of constantly going, shall
• 1:24:57
  we do that? Yes, let's do that.
• 1:24:58
  Let's do that. Let's do that.
• 1:24:59
  Because I can say at home and do nothing all I want but, you
• 1:25:02
  know, as soon as an opportunity, Got to go for it.
• 1:25:06
  That's great. I like that.
• 1:25:08
  I've been trying to get that late more recently.
• 1:25:11
  You know, this is like I was saying earlier about, I mean,
• 1:25:14
  this is, this is probably a whole topic now, but I have
• 1:25:17
  maybe something even agenda because it's like, I'm
• 1:25:20
  interesting, the idea of a Divine masculine.
• 1:25:23
  So like what I mean by that is, you know, what I was saying
• 1:25:26
  earlier about masculine feminine energy, you know, it's it's just
• 1:25:30
  a shorthand. It's just a way to describe it,
• 1:25:32
  but for me, Me, I've been reading this book called iron
• 1:25:36
  John, which is cool about men and masculinity, and it talks
• 1:25:41
  about different types of men, you know, across the ages and it
• 1:25:44
  gives two examples of the very very 1950s America.
• 1:25:51
  None sensitive, All-American, nail, you know that the provides
• 1:25:55
  for the family but isn't particularly emotionally
• 1:25:57
  receptive. He's just 100% boom and go and
• 1:26:02
  then he says so that's Extreme. And then the other extreme is
• 1:26:06
  this sort of soft 1960s 1970s emergent masculinity, where they
• 1:26:12
  become receptive and emotionally intuitive, and all of that sort
• 1:26:17
  of thing, but still, something's missing because there's a
• 1:26:20
  certain Lack of self determining it's all very spacious and how
• 1:26:24
  can I accommodate you? Which is, you know, man, I think
• 1:26:28
  embracing a morph. Let's say Feminine quality
• 1:26:30
  something like that. And this book talks about Out,
• 1:26:34
  you know, the reclaiming of a Divine masculine.
• 1:26:37
  So, you know, when you look out in culture, now, how many times
• 1:26:40
  when you think of how maleness and masculinity is describes?
• 1:26:43
  How many times can you think? Toxic masculinity straight away?
• 1:26:47
  Patriarchy straight away in cells, red pill movement, Jordan
• 1:26:53
  Peterson like authoritative, you know, is there any account in
• 1:26:57
  popular Consciousness really that that can celebrate maleness
• 1:27:02
  or celebrate a male quality? That can support the idea of a
• 1:27:06
  new, you know, who are meant to be in this world.
• 1:27:10
  If we're not to be this or this, or this, or this, what's left,
• 1:27:14
  you know, and I think this book, I am John talks about the the
• 1:27:18
  ribs so that the divine feminine, you know, women are
• 1:27:21
  very much. I think in general culturally
• 1:27:24
  and touch with and very vocal they've got a real dialogue.
• 1:27:27
  Feminism is a big movement will know but the there's not a sir.
• 1:27:33
  So much of a masculism as it were.
• 1:27:35
  Like, I've not, I don't see that much of an equivalent out there.
• 1:27:40
  And I guess this is a really, really long way to come back to
• 1:27:43
  my original point, which is that, if you say, I'm just going
• 1:27:46
  to do it and just going to get, get on with it.
• 1:27:49
  I understand that in a sense as a embracing that sort of aspect,
• 1:27:55
  like I have agency, I can do things in the world.
• 1:27:59
  I feel confident enough to execute my my will and make it
• 1:28:03
  happen. And for me, because I've always
• 1:28:06
  been actually very, I've had that sort of stifled in my life.
• 1:28:10
  You know, I've had a very emotionally Nick negligent
• 1:28:17
  mother that who I no longer sort of speak to you anymore that at
• 1:28:23
  one point. Yeah, when I was really angry
• 1:28:25
  one time with something very, very awful that they did.
• 1:28:29
  They just chose to laugh at me and the consequence of that.
• 1:28:33
  That was to sort of I think on a deep level was to sort of shoot
• 1:28:38
  down that certain powerful rageful, sort of maleness like
• 1:28:45
  my feelings matter, you know, so you're going along the way of
• 1:28:49
  reclaiming that yeah. Sorry.
• 1:28:50
  Yes. Do you mind if I ask you about a
• 1:28:52
  bit more about that situation? Yeah, go for it.
• 1:28:56
  Well, I can tell you. I won't go.
• 1:28:58
  Yeah, I don't obviously, I don't want to pry too much.
• 1:29:02
  I think I'm more interested as far.
• 1:29:03
  Is. How it shaped you, and where you
• 1:29:07
  were at in your life right now. So, for example, when that
• 1:29:10
  particular incident happened, were you an adult or was that
• 1:29:14
  when you were a child? This, this was an early teens
• 1:29:18
  thing? Okay.
• 1:29:20
  I was pretty young enough for it to really, I was old enough to
• 1:29:25
  her to make all sorts of ideas, and sort of symbolize what was
• 1:29:29
  happening and to not not old enough to be able to, sort of
• 1:29:33
  not take it as a disaster. How old would you say you were,
• 1:29:38
  when you were cognizant of the fact that?
• 1:29:39
  Okay. This is wrong.
• 1:29:41
  This is not normal. What the way that I was being in
• 1:29:44
  the world, where it, well, I think oh, no, I mean, like,
• 1:29:49
  okay, because like, everyone grows up with a different like
• 1:29:52
  family situation. Yes, and then you naturally
• 1:29:57
  compare yourself to other people's families or you, you
• 1:30:00
  realize certain things are not. Okay, maybe not everyone deals
• 1:30:04
  with the same thing. You know, I mean there's Is to a
• 1:30:06
  certain extent, whatever is considered the general Norm,
• 1:30:13
  let's say in society. If anything Falls outside of
• 1:30:15
  that and then you suddenly realize, okay.
• 1:30:18
  This is problematic. This is not normal.
• 1:30:20
  I for instance, shouldn't be treated this way.
• 1:30:22
  Or this is not how normal people respond to x, y, and Zed.
• 1:30:26
  Like, was there a particular moment where you were like, hang
• 1:30:29
  on? That's not quite right.
• 1:30:32
  I think, I think at the time and I think this is, Actually the
• 1:30:36
  nature of trauma, I believe. So, I always take the definition
• 1:30:40
  of trauma to be this which is it's not the event itself that
• 1:30:46
  causes the trauma. So for example, a car accident
• 1:30:49
  or Injury, One scenario, or a long-term scenario of emotional
• 1:30:55
  neglect or abuse or something like that, that those are both
• 1:30:59
  events in a way. It's not the event itself.
• 1:31:04
  That is the cause of Trauma, I think it is the lack of
• 1:31:09
  understanding, the lack of reception after that.
• 1:31:12
  So let's say someone has this car accident.
• 1:31:14
  Nothing, they appeal to the other two.
• 1:31:18
  They're caring. Other in a sense to say.
• 1:31:20
  Hey, this is really awful and upsetting, this is made me angry
• 1:31:23
  or I scared of this. I don't know what's happening.
• 1:31:27
  I need some support and when that secondary appeal for
• 1:31:31
  support, doesn't get met right exception.
• 1:31:34
  That's I think. When trauma can occur where it's
• 1:31:38
  got no place to land, where the experience of something being
• 1:31:41
  wrong has to be swallowed, you know, and just put away
• 1:31:44
  somewhere before, you know, because it's not safe.
• 1:31:48
  It's not an emotion. That's helping you to survive in
• 1:31:52
  the context that you're growing up in.
• 1:31:54
  So, it took me a very long time to realize.
• 1:31:58
  Oh gosh. I've been putting up with a
• 1:31:59
  great deal here and it took it, and it's a huge delay because of
• 1:32:03
  how good I had gotten at normalizing.
• 1:32:06
  The environment around me. What time did you move out of
• 1:32:08
  home? What age?
• 1:32:12
  I well I left home actually. Well, it's a bit of a mix-up
• 1:32:18
  really. So I've moved between different
• 1:32:19
  parents house has more only thing.
• 1:32:21
  Okay, but but to say, when did I leave home properties in?
• 1:32:25
  When did I sort of fly their nests?
• 1:32:26
  Yeah, like that. Yeah, so that was just when I
• 1:32:30
  went off to UNI, basically, you know, I never really quite a way
• 1:32:33
  back home since Did you say 18? Did you feel they're saying?
• 1:32:42
  Either during University or maybe in your first kind of
• 1:32:46
  years living by yourself. Thereafter.
• 1:32:50
  Was there a point where you kind of?
• 1:32:53
  I'm going to put a Decompressed, maybe, or maybe just kind of
• 1:33:01
  because I will say this, when I left home.
• 1:33:05
  One of the biggest things I realized is that my perception
• 1:33:08
  of what I thought the world was was completely different.
• 1:33:11
  I was I was terrified of so many different things and then in
• 1:33:15
  actuality, they're not things to be scared of, even just silly
• 1:33:20
  stuff like paying bills or paying the rent.
• 1:33:23
  Like, there is a lot of hassle with that stuff.
• 1:33:25
  Don't get me wrong, but like, Actually, those are like the
• 1:33:27
  easy things in life. The things that are difficult.
• 1:33:29
  I like dealing with people and politics, and that's the sort of
• 1:33:33
  shizzle that causes problems. But for you given that you were,
• 1:33:39
  you were aware of this, as you said, it was, it was not like a
• 1:33:41
  straightforward thing. So I would gather that a lot of
• 1:33:45
  your teens was like trying to get through that ride the wave
• 1:33:49
  and then when you did leave, I imagine that must been kind of
• 1:33:52
  like a relief Point like, okay. I can finally get away from this
• 1:33:57
  now. I think so.
• 1:33:58
  Yeah, but you know what, the decompression you speak of, I
• 1:34:03
  think didn't quite happen till much later, because I think
• 1:34:07
  that, although, I had gotten away from the original.
• 1:34:10
  Let's say sourced in your circumstances that had caused me
• 1:34:14
  difficulties. So difficulties, namely being
• 1:34:18
  absolute dogged tireless perfectionism, which has caused
• 1:34:21
  me so many problems because I because I just can't, you know,
• 1:34:25
  I'm Too afraid to sometimes act, or do or create anything because
• 1:34:30
  of this, crippling perfectionism fear of vulnerability, you know,
• 1:34:35
  fear to have my needs net for example, so I learned to adapt
• 1:34:39
  by thinking, well, it's a real virtue of me to be so
• 1:34:43
  independent that I won't need. I won't need any to ask anybody
• 1:34:47
  to get my needs met. So I'm like, very, very
• 1:34:51
  relentlessly independent. And I carried those qualities
• 1:34:55
  with With me. Oh, and one more key one, which
• 1:34:57
  does this narrative, that I have to be strong.
• 1:35:00
  So you, so trauma for me was a real big divorce, big mess
• 1:35:07
  parent, the whole thing. And the what I took from it was
• 1:35:14
  in the only way for me to be safe here because there wasn't
• 1:35:17
  really that much reception of my hurt at that moment in time.
• 1:35:22
  So I learnt a lesson there where it's like I've got to just He
• 1:35:25
  strongly here. You don't end up, you know Bunch
• 1:35:28
  it all up, gather it all up and take it with me.
• 1:35:31
  And I did that actually Way Beyond leaving home because I
• 1:35:35
  have that, I have that habit that way of seeing the world
• 1:35:39
  carry on all the way through. And really it was it's really
• 1:35:42
  only been in the last perhaps decade when I first started to
• 1:35:47
  proper Psychotherapy for my own purposes, which then later
• 1:35:51
  inspired me to go into therapy training where self-exploration
• 1:35:55
  You know, and trying to inquire about why I assume certain
• 1:35:59
  things about life and what patterns are going on.
• 1:36:02
  That's when I started to really get the space, the detachment.
• 1:36:07
  From that roofer cards to your decision, too.
• 1:36:15
  Have like an online presence ago.
• 1:36:19
  For instance. I noticed, you know, you don't
• 1:36:20
  use your real name, which I understood.
• 1:36:23
  I just figured, like, okay, just want to keep us separate from
• 1:36:26
  Psychotherapy and stuff like that.
• 1:36:27
  But to be fair, there are a lot of people in serious professions
• 1:36:34
  even Psychotherapy that are online and sometimes even offer
• 1:36:39
  advice and whatever via these platforms, but I guess my
• 1:36:44
  question to you is, Is kind of twofold it with this regards to
• 1:36:47
  this. So, firstly, first part of it is
• 1:36:54
  Why did you decide to kind of open up about your traumas and
• 1:36:57
  stuff on social media? Now?
• 1:37:01
  I know, obviously you'd said that, you know, you'd explored
• 1:37:04
  it through therapy. And that's kind of, you know,
• 1:37:07
  partly why you decided to pursue Psychotherapy and also as it's
• 1:37:11
  helped you to open up, you've kind of realized and explored
• 1:37:14
  that. And you're working on that,
• 1:37:16
  right? Yeah, for sure.
• 1:37:17
  That's one part of it. And then the second part of it
• 1:37:19
  is just in general. What was what was the Go?
• 1:37:22
  I mean, when you look, For your content, it's kind of like a
• 1:37:25
  mixture of humor. Its content are you?
• 1:37:28
  You have a great sense of humor. You're a funny guy, you know
• 1:37:31
  your stylish. You've got a lot of cool
• 1:37:33
  interests, you know, it's fun, fun guy and like and when I look
• 1:37:37
  at all the people that follow you and what you do and stuff
• 1:37:41
  kind of hopped in your lives and stuff.
• 1:37:42
  It's similar to what I do in the sense that that sense of
• 1:37:47
  interaction with people. Hmm.
• 1:37:50
  Weighs on your mind just as it does on mine as far.
• 1:37:53
  As like being, you know, sometimes people will message
• 1:37:55
  you and be like this live, this video got me through something.
• 1:38:00
  And it's, you know, and when you start receiving messages, but
• 1:38:02
  like that, by the way, it really is weighs on you and you're
• 1:38:06
  like, oh, wow. Okay.
• 1:38:07
  This is having a profound impact now, add to that that what
• 1:38:10
  you're doing, what you're pursuing, which you've been
• 1:38:13
  vocal with your audience about is the fact that you are
• 1:38:16
  pursuing Psychotherapy or training and this is what you're
• 1:38:19
  going to do and you share aspects of your Education and
• 1:38:25
  what you've learned and what your understanding with your
• 1:38:28
  audience. So I guess frame in that whole
• 1:38:31
  question into one big thing. What was the behind the decision
• 1:38:35
  to go online and do this? And what is a special goal with
• 1:38:41
  this? What you're trying to achieve by
• 1:38:42
  doing this? Hmm, I think I have to start
• 1:38:48
  with my own selfish motives, I think start with so so.
• 1:38:52
  So I'm trying to be trying to be fully fully transparent on this
• 1:38:56
  one because I'm thinking back to the pandemic.
• 1:38:59
  And think that the type the time when I first discovered Tick
• 1:39:03
  Tock was a time when I was absolutely, at my, most
• 1:39:07
  isolated, actually the most, I was on furlough.
• 1:39:10
  So I had all the time in the world indefinite time.
• 1:39:12
  I thought gosh, you know, I can really feel the vacuum, the
• 1:39:16
  absence of other. And I think I wanted to start
• 1:39:19
  off with. I didn't really know what I
• 1:39:21
  wanted to use Tick-Tock for per se, you know, I thought I'll
• 1:39:24
  just place in Pangaea on here or do some silly Impressions and
• 1:39:28
  tell some jokes and then I started to get a following.
• 1:39:30
  I use I started to do it, a couple of lives where I talked
• 1:39:33
  about what I did and people were really engaged.
• 1:39:36
  And I thought, gosh, you know, this is actually maybe this can
• 1:39:39
  be an outlet for for lots of different things.
• 1:39:43
  And I've always said to people that my type of content is what
• 1:39:47
  I call wholesome nonsense. So my objective we really is to
• 1:39:53
  entertain to educate and to inform not and I really really
• 1:39:58
  stressed this not to be therapeutic per se.
• 1:40:02
  If it's in if it's incidentally therapeutic that if that my
• 1:40:06
  talking about what I struggle with, you know, for the sake of
• 1:40:09
  championing vulnerability to say hey, you know, what?
• 1:40:12
  Like we so rarely get an experience of what life is, in
• 1:40:16
  fact, Like for a person, you know, someone that's interesting
• 1:40:19
  to probe into themselves with some depth.
• 1:40:22
  There's a way to model for others.
• 1:40:24
  Hey, here's how I engage with stuff that I struggle with, and
• 1:40:28
  I'm not giving advice out exactly.
• 1:40:30
  But it's like if people can riff off of this guy's, you know,
• 1:40:34
  kind of got a good way of engaging with himself, like this
• 1:40:37
  is, this is somewhat inspiring or or I don't agree with this.
• 1:40:41
  Let's debate with them or whatever.
• 1:40:43
  Like it's interesting just to see what responses I get.
• 1:40:47
  So I guess I get a lot out of the interaction with the
• 1:40:51
  audience. I like I think it's also a way
• 1:40:54
  to really synthesize to really gather exactly what I think
• 1:41:01
  about certain topics. Like, here's I have a theory
• 1:41:04
  about Melanie, Klein or have a theory about Freud or hear
• 1:41:07
  something that I've learned. How can I make this a
• 1:41:10
  deliverable 60-second, you know or three minute video and I
• 1:41:14
  really enjoy, you know. I just enjoy presenting their
• 1:41:19
  stuff and seeing what people think.
• 1:41:22
  So that's kind of I don't know what the objective is, yet what
• 1:41:25
  the overall goal is? It's just an unfolding.
• 1:41:28
  This is enjoyable, but that's kind of how I do how I live
• 1:41:32
  really. Do you think you'll continue
• 1:41:35
  producing content online when you eventually receive your, you
• 1:41:40
  know, psychotherapist license and stuff.
• 1:41:42
  Do you think it will change? Yeah.
• 1:41:45
  I don't think it will. You know, I don't think so.
• 1:41:48
  I think Tick-Tock is seems too because it's like, I think I've
• 1:41:52
  learned a way to be, you know, boundaries because I don't want
• 1:41:55
  to go on and start offering people therapy.
• 1:41:57
  I don't want to start weighing in, bulldozing in with here's
• 1:42:01
  how you deal with mental health and giving that kind of advice.
• 1:42:03
  It's like, especially as a professional where it's like,
• 1:42:07
  there is liability to Dole out advice, hit left right center.
• 1:42:10
  It's like, I also noticed that some people do this, some people
• 1:42:14
  just say, here's what you should do.
• 1:42:16
  Here's how I Shouldn't you care to like that?
• 1:42:19
  That's like, what is this guy's motive, or what's her motive?
• 1:42:23
  What's going on here? I know.
• 1:42:25
  Well, maybe but, but also I need to be seen as someone I need to
• 1:42:29
  be seen as someone that can. That's on top of things that can
• 1:42:32
  be helpful. How is it serving the ego?
• 1:42:35
  You know, I think well, I don't know if I can incidentally help
• 1:42:39
  people. If it incidentally, inspires
• 1:42:41
  people great, but I'm mostly doing this for my own fun, you
• 1:42:45
  know, if people want to rip off that, Great.
• 1:42:48
  Oh, no, I totally get that. And I think you've done a really
• 1:42:51
  good job of mediating that so to speak.
• 1:42:55
  I think that You have to be careful in your profession about
• 1:43:00
  things. I'm ethics and morals and what's
• 1:43:03
  the right to tell people. And it shocks me sometimes
• 1:43:05
  seeing actual licensed therapists online on these
• 1:43:08
  websites giving people advice and it's like it's not like
• 1:43:14
  you're in the room with these people, you know, and they'll
• 1:43:16
  give you like a little brief comment that gives an idea of
• 1:43:21
  what they're going through. But not really like you need to
• 1:43:23
  sit down and talk to someone for like maybe an hour before you
• 1:43:25
  can really gain a Fuller perspective, as you put it
• 1:43:30
  earlier in the conversation framing, what's going on
• 1:43:33
  framing? Not only what's going on, but
• 1:43:37
  how to set an action plan with that with regards to
• 1:43:40
  step-by-step progress of like, okay.
• 1:43:42
  Well, this is where we are. This is where we need to be and
• 1:43:45
  this is how we're going to get just like anything else in life,
• 1:43:48
  you know, you plan it structure and then you work on those
• 1:43:50
  goals. One by one.
• 1:43:52
  You can't just dish out a few occasional comments here and
• 1:43:55
  they're like, oh, they do this. I did this and In July, because
• 1:43:57
  it's just that's just not how life Works.
• 1:44:01
  No, I think some of the better therapist is a particular
• 1:44:04
  chapter. I think from he's like German if
• 1:44:06
  he's called been, I can't remember his account exactly.
• 1:44:09
  But he does a really good job of sort of saying here are some
• 1:44:13
  typical things that I consider bad advice.
• 1:44:15
  And here's why, you know, and here's an alternative and it
• 1:44:19
  feels very considered rather than just sound bite far off.
• 1:44:23
  You know, here's what you do. That's not that's not, there's
• 1:44:26
  not a shadow. Shade of Doubt to it down is
• 1:44:28
  important. It's almost like it's designed
• 1:44:30
  for the algorithm. Interesting.
• 1:44:33
  Exactly. Exactly.
• 1:44:34
  Yeah, because well, you know, I mean, it's Some people take.
• 1:44:43
  Their sense of responsibility, seriously, and some people
• 1:44:45
  don't, I think, you know, I mean, I always try to look at
• 1:44:51
  the things that I say, I give advice sometimes, but that
• 1:44:53
  doesn't mean that. Like, I think it's Like, I'll
• 1:44:57
  try to frame it as that. Well, this is what I would do,
• 1:45:00
  you know, this might not work for you Etc.
• 1:45:04
  I always make a point of saying that to people because I think
• 1:45:06
  it's important to spell that out because we are, we're all
• 1:45:09
  different. We will approach things in
• 1:45:10
  different ways. And I think that's a big aspect
• 1:45:13
  of advice in general is if you're given advice to someone
• 1:45:16
  else, Try to give advice for them.
• 1:45:20
  Not and what works for them. And really, yes.
• 1:45:24
  I did. He need to know them to really
• 1:45:26
  be able to give them the right kind of advice that would work
• 1:45:29
  for them or or even if it's just, it's just to take
• 1:45:34
  ownership of the advice that you're giving.
• 1:45:36
  Now. Here's, here's what I did.
• 1:45:39
  And here's why, here's my circumstances, yours might
• 1:45:42
  differ, but maybe you can take something from it and then and
• 1:45:45
  then just sort of, it's Very heavily implied that they can
• 1:45:48
  choose whether or not to take it.
• 1:45:51
  I think so. Yeah, I'm conscious of time as
• 1:45:57
  fun. Let's move it on.
• 1:45:58
  Got a couple more questions for you, final questions.
• 1:46:01
  Sure. Yeah.
• 1:46:02
  What's the best advice you've ever received?
• 1:46:07
  Best advice, I bet. No, I've been preparing a
• 1:46:10
  because I mean I know that you asked this question and the
• 1:46:14
  answer I would say is to keep close the idea that.
• 1:46:22
  So what you conclude about life. Let's say this, this is
• 1:46:25
  happening. This is what this means is what
• 1:46:27
  that means, you know, this, my problem is defined like this,
• 1:46:30
  find like that. I think you can get ready locked
• 1:46:33
  into Into this assumption and it's necessary to stay open.
• 1:46:40
  So the best advice that I think I could give and receive is to
• 1:46:44
  always stay open to the possibility that you do not
• 1:46:47
  fully know exactly what's going on.
• 1:46:51
  It's necessary to be uncertain in life.
• 1:46:54
  Doubt is a is one of the three pillars of Zen wisdom that was
• 1:46:59
  required doubts in what it, what something means.
• 1:47:02
  So, for example, in the case of trauma, so for A, I'd
• 1:47:07
  experienced a great deal of trauma that would lead me to
• 1:47:10
  conclude that. It is a disaster.
• 1:47:12
  If I don't keep going and keep trying to get ahead and Beyond
• 1:47:15
  the making, make my career work and stuff like that.
• 1:47:17
  It's a disaster, you know, that's the conclusion.
• 1:47:21
  And if I lose sight of that, this Source when I made that
• 1:47:27
  conclusion, because of that trauma, because I brush the
• 1:47:30
  trauma. Under the carpet brush, my life
• 1:47:32
  experience under the carpet, then I'll start to really
• 1:47:35
  believe. If that I really must be this,
• 1:47:38
  you know, productive person. And there's a little metaphor.
• 1:47:44
  So Pippin in Lord of the Rings. He says, why why are you heading
• 1:47:49
  back to Isengard? You know, and they're on the
• 1:47:51
  giant shoulders on the tree be shoulders.
• 1:47:55
  As the closer you are to Danger the further.
• 1:47:58
  You are from harm and I believe that this also applies to
• 1:48:02
  difficult emotion difficult experience.
• 1:48:04
  If you can keep a hold Of trauma or something.
• 1:48:08
  That has informed, the things that you assume about life,
• 1:48:12
  about yourself about what to do and who you are.
• 1:48:15
  If you can keep a hold of the source of it, then then you can,
• 1:48:19
  you have a means to question it. You have awareness, you have
• 1:48:22
  awareness to be able to then open up and go.
• 1:48:25
  Well, that doesn't have to be the case.
• 1:48:28
  So it's necessary. I would say stay open to what
• 1:48:32
  things mean and question oneself.
• 1:48:36
  Be humble. I love it.
• 1:48:39
  What's the biggest life lesson you've learned so far?
• 1:48:45
  I mean, that's one gosh. I've I Pete greatest life,
• 1:48:49
  lesson, greatest, life lesson. I'm gonna have to, can you, can
• 1:49:01
  you edit this if I take ages to reply?
• 1:49:06
  I'm going to be editing all day. Thanks to you so I'm sorry.
• 1:49:13
  No, no, no. Okay College.
• 1:49:14
  He's my man. You take as much time as you
• 1:49:16
  need. I think I think I've got
• 1:49:18
  something so life advice. I mean something that's worked
• 1:49:24
  for me is to to not be afraid of your own power.
• 1:49:28
  And actually I want to read you a poem.
• 1:49:31
  Oh, well this yeah, I was thinking about me.
• 1:49:35
  So Simply I've more recently come to this conclusion that
• 1:49:41
  because I'm there's a lot of fear and doubt and disbelief in
• 1:49:45
  myself and well, I don't take action and don't do much, don't
• 1:49:49
  don't really go outside of my box.
• 1:49:52
  You know, I won't write my essays, confidently operation, a
• 1:49:54
  tour. I won't make that phone call or
• 1:49:57
  I won't get on with certain things I need to do because I'm
• 1:50:01
  reluctant, you know, there's part of me wants to stay small
• 1:50:04
  and kind of just Hunker down and resist.
• 1:50:08
  But this poem really was actually given to me by my
• 1:50:12
  therapist and it's meant a lot to me.
• 1:50:15
  So, this is it. Our deepest fear is not that we
• 1:50:20
  are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that, we are
• 1:50:23
  powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our
• 1:50:28
  darkness. That most frightens us your
• 1:50:31
  playing. Small does not serve the world.
• 1:50:34
  There is nothing enlightened. And about shrinking so that
• 1:50:37
  other people won't feel insecure around you.
• 1:50:41
  We are all meant to shine as children.
• 1:50:43
  Do it's not just in some of us, it is in everyone and as we let
• 1:50:48
  our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people
• 1:50:52
  permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own
• 1:50:55
  fear. Our presence automatically
• 1:50:57
  liberates others. So, so life advice would be to
• 1:51:05
  Not be afraid of your own ability or empowered.
• 1:51:08
  Dare have the audacity to assume that you, you can do things.
• 1:51:12
  You can become someone if you if you allow yourself to believe in
• 1:51:18
  that that you're entitled to it. Beautiful.
• 1:51:22
  Thank you so much for sharing that really, really beautiful
• 1:51:27
  through. This reminds me why I love doing
• 1:51:28
  this show and getting like nice surprises like that.
• 1:51:33
  Good. As we do.
• 1:51:34
  Things to a close for today. Do you have any upcoming
• 1:51:36
  projects or final thoughts that you'd like to share with our
• 1:51:38
  listeners? Well, I mean, coming projects.
• 1:51:42
  I've got more therapy stuff. I've got two massive essay.
• 1:51:46
  So that's kind of that's what's going on.
• 1:51:48
  But Tick-Tock projects, you know, just to bring it back into
• 1:51:51
  the original. The premise of the reason that
• 1:51:53
  we met in the first place, which is, I've got some ideas about
• 1:51:56
  what I want to do with my accounts.
• 1:52:00
  Which one thing is. I want to start doing a little
• 1:52:03
  bit of a play a psycho. Drama, so the way that I yeah,
• 1:52:07
  like I said, the way that I understand myself or a way that
• 1:52:10
  I find really useful to play with my own sort of self concept
• 1:52:15
  is to identify different parts of me.
• 1:52:17
  One part of me is this sort of get go, you know, do well in
• 1:52:21
  life being night, you know go for it.
• 1:52:24
  Another part of me is sort of this this apathetic teenager.
• 1:52:28
  That's like everything's pointless man.
• 1:52:30
  Yeah. That's another part somewhere
• 1:52:31
  over here. That's the workaholic.
• 1:52:33
  Like you can't go on holiday with Enough and another part
• 1:52:36
  over here and here and here and basically, like over time.
• 1:52:39
  I've developed these different characters to sort of have a bit
• 1:52:43
  of fun with my own self understanding, right.
• 1:52:45
  And I want to start off the series where I have these people
• 1:52:49
  different people interacting with each other over different
• 1:52:51
  situations. So so that's a project, I guess,
• 1:52:56
  friends, Almost. Yeah.
• 1:52:58
  And the other part of your question, which was like, what
• 1:53:01
  would you leave with listeners? Maybe that's, that's a fun thing
• 1:53:06
  to do. If you're interested in, you
• 1:53:07
  know, self-exploration, one place to begin is to think about
• 1:53:11
  what different disparate parts of oneself.
• 1:53:14
  There are, you know, and that's a good way.
• 1:53:16
  I think to start understanding you're engaging with your own
• 1:53:20
  self. It's like, okay, what players
• 1:53:23
  are actually on the table here. Who's got the most power who
• 1:53:27
  doesn't really have that much of a voice.
• 1:53:29
  I think that's a really great way to get started with this
• 1:53:32
  self-understanding. Couldn't agree more.
• 1:53:36
  Well, Leo. It's been an absolute pleasure.
• 1:53:39
  I want to say a massive. Thank you for taking the time to
• 1:53:41
  be with us and share Pleasures. Mine is always, always welcome
• 1:53:47
  on the show again, and they're just a massive.
• 1:53:49
  Thank you for being here. Yeah.
• 1:53:53
  Thank you, too. Yeah.
• 1:53:54
  Well look forward to a next time till next time.
• 1:53:57
  And to all the listeners of the Christian re podcast, as always
• 1:54:00
  be safe, be well, and I'll see you in the next one.