Latest / State Of Mind Mental Health Podcast / #113 - Ex-FBI Agent Reveals the Pattern of Evil He Saw for 24 Years with Eric Robinson

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#113 - Ex-FBI Agent Reveals the Pattern of Evil He Saw for 24 Years with Eric Robinson · State Of Mind Mental Health Podcast

• 0:00
  If you have something different to tell me, I'm going to benefit from listening.
• 0:03
  Even if what you tell me, I end up abandoning and saying, well, that's garbage.
• 0:07
  But I need to be curious about what you are presenting and let that come out, not be defensive, not stop you, but let that get drawn out.
• 0:17
  That was with obviously with victims and witnesses with informants, but even with the criminals, if they want to tell me something that opposes the
• 0:25
  evidence that I have, go ahead, let me hear it.
• 0:28
  Let me hear what you have to say.
• 0:29
  And I'm going to put that in the calculus.
• 0:32
  hello, Eric.
• 0:33
  Thank you so much for joining me, for sharing your wisdom and experience with us.
• 0:37
  Can you please introduce yourself and tell us how you got to this point in your life?
• 0:42
  Absolutely.
• 0:43
  I am Eric Robinson.
• 0:44
  I am recently retired from 24 years in the FBI where I got to investigate drugs, gangs, public corruption, organized crime, financial crimes, crimes against children and national
• 1:01
  security.
• 1:03
  And I was a SWAT operator for 15 years, got to be a tactical instructor, firearms instructor, all the instructors and oh yeah,
• 1:11
  Before that, I was a Baptist pastor.
• 1:14
  how did you get into being a pastor, a pastor?
• 1:18
  And then how did you make the switch?
• 1:20
  Yeah, that story is less exciting.
• 1:22
  was kind of the usual way of, I grew up in a Christian home.
• 1:26
  We went to church each week.
• 1:27
  It wasn't demanding, but that's just what we did.
• 1:30
  And so I had a fairly precocious knowledge of the Bible.
• 1:34
  But then in college, I started growing in my faith and just got to a place where I thought this seems right.
• 1:40
  so went on to graduate school and then youth pastor, associate pastor, and then
• 1:47
  With a core group of Christians, we planted a church off of the church that I was associate pastor at.
• 1:54
  And then I got to be a senior pastor in a Mideast Baptist Conference Church in Western New York.
• 1:59
  And then how did you decide to move into law enforcement?
• 2:05
  uh That decision was forced upon me by my body because I Was unable to separate myself from people's troubles.
• 2:15
  So when they say hey pastor, this is going wrong in my life I Kept the burden and I couldn't get rid of it.
• 2:22
  And so because of that for two years Every single day and I'll reiterate every single day
• 2:31
  I had a stress-related headache.
• 2:32
  So I told my wife, I've got to find a job with less stress and I joined the FBI.
• 2:39
  Did it prove to be less stressful or no?
• 2:41
  Wow.
• 2:43
  day that I got accepted in the FBI, my headaches went away.
• 2:47
  And I remember thinking to myself, I don't have to do this anymore.
• 2:50
  I don't have to struggle.
• 2:53
  And the stress was just different.
• 2:55
  mean, you have stress.
• 2:57
  There's different stresses, but I never had the headaches.
• 3:01
  And typically, the stress I had was, body said, you've got a task.
• 3:07
  I'm going to give you what you need for it.
• 3:09
  Complete the task.
• 3:10
  And now you move on and I wasn't carrying it into my evenings throughout my days.
• 3:16
  I'm curious what your thoughts are on how, at least as I understand it, Western civilization and our legal system and all this kind of stuff is an outgrowth or sits on
• 3:28
  the foundation of the Bible really, or sort of religious philosophy, Judeo-Christian.
• 3:33
  I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.
• 3:37
  I think so many people have a very poor conception of quote unquote good and evil, right?
• 3:42
  Or, the dark side of human nature and the good side or the light side.
• 3:47
  does that question make sense?
• 3:48
  Well, I'll answer it and then you tell me if I'm not answering it.
• 3:51
  So one thing, without getting too religious, the difference I saw in the people I interacted with in the church and then criminals, I think comes down to repentance.
• 4:03
  So people in the church would say, pastor, I'm doing something wrong.
• 4:07
  Help me not do this.
• 4:08
  Help me learn to change and be better.
• 4:11
  And then the criminals were like, yep.
• 4:13
  That's exactly it.
• 4:14
  I'm all in, you know, and I'm going to keep going down this path.
• 4:17
  And so we all have have that in us that we can do wrong.
• 4:22
  The question is, do we want to change?
• 4:24
  Do we want to be better?
• 4:25
  Or are we okay being self-serving?
• 4:27
  And then is the legal system, in some sense, humanity's attempt or Western civilization's attempt to
• 4:35
  would be police that or try to bring those ideas into our everyday lives.
• 4:42
  Yeah, I think so.
• 4:43
  I'm trying to think of best way to describe what I'm trying to remember that the basic levels of doing right are the lowest level is I will be punished if I don't do what's
• 4:58
  right.
• 4:58
  And then moving up to the highest level of self-actualization of I want to do this because it makes me better, my community better.
• 5:06
  then there's up from there.
• 5:08
  It seems it's odd because you hear a lot of advocates for trying to produce at higher level through education or benefits.
• 5:19
  And yet the justice system works on, no, you did this and you need to fear being punished.
• 5:25
  You need to fear spending more time in prison.
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  And for many of the criminals that I encountered, they were
• 5:33
  amoral.
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  So they knew what they're doing could be punished.
• 5:38
  And it was like, didn't bother them.
• 5:40
  That's just how you live.
• 5:41
  That's just what I'm doing.
• 5:45
  so obviously we had failed to get through like, no, you shouldn't want to sell drugs, but also what's, what's the motivation if that's one way for you to succeed and have a career.
• 5:56
  Yeah, it, I, a teenager, I was, I live in Toronto, Canada and I sold primarily marijuana.
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  I was convicted at 16.
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  but none of these questions ever really entered my mind rather from my parents or from, you know, like, is there a greater purpose or a higher power, so to speak, or just what,
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  what are your moral and ethical alignments?
• 6:21
  And.
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  I think, I guess I'm a mental health professional and I do a lot of this work in public environments and those questions still rarely arise.
• 6:31
  Well, and so now your job is to do to the extreme what you and others were failing to do then, which is there's no self-examination.
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  You just did it because money could come benefits from that.
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  so for many of these people, like, no, this is how we operate.
• 6:50
  don't, and then it came to the extreme where I had one subject who was very legitimately a sociopath, not, not throwing the word out.
• 6:57
  He was a sociopath.
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  And people would come to him crying because he had been taking their money and now they're being crippled.
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  And he just, he didn't get it.
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  He didn't take pleasure in it.
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  It just didn't affect him.
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  got, so there's a lack of self-examination and then there's like, that's not even a concept.
• 7:18
  Yeah.
• 7:18
  Yeah.
• 7:19
  man.
• 7:19
  okay.
• 7:19
  And so maybe kind of back to you, you enter the FBI.
• 7:25
  Yeah.
• 7:26
  Yeah.
• 7:26
  Yeah, we are.
• 7:27
  I love it though.
• 7:28
  It's so good.
• 7:28
  cause those conversations really matter and they're often either not investigated or not asked even.
• 7:35
  Uh, and I'll probably ask you.
• 7:37
  Okay, so you get into law enforcement and what, do you have military background or how did you end up in the SWAT team and all that kind of stuff?
• 7:44
  I never handled a gun before I joined the FBI.
• 7:48
  So I got in and 32, almost 33, and I joined the SWAT team when I was 42?
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  So like that's old for having to join the team.
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  By the time I retired, I was 56 and there's...
• 8:11
  You know, there's guys on there who could be my legitimate children because I'd been married so many years.
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  you know, so just through experience, getting the training and, and moving into the FBI, it pretty quickly became comfortable for me that this seemed like this is the right path.
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  So just had an aptitude for being able to shoot a gun for.
• 8:38
  being able to understand tactics and then on the SWAT team, getting to learn even more and more from that training too.
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  And also being on SWAT is super cool.
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  you do you want to do that?
• 8:53
  yeah, I bet.
• 8:54
  It does sound very cool.
• 8:55
  What was the, I don't know if there's sort of an ethical training behind it all.
• 9:02
  How did you, or how were you trained to understand the nature of criminals or the people you were investigating or trying to track down and arrest?
• 9:14
  So the ethics that we were trained in were only for us to make sure we're applying things well.
• 9:21
  And it's also, you know, it's just kind of, it's kind of a hand wave of like, Hey, make sure you're ethical.
• 9:28
  You learn that from the standards that have been in place for 118 years.
• 9:36
  I think it is, you know, that this is what the FBI does.
• 9:39
  We follow the law, we do things right way.
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  And so.
• 9:43
  Other than that, learning about the criminals, that's on you.
• 9:46
  Are you paying attention to how they act?
• 9:49
  Are you curious about their behavior while you're investigating?
• 9:54
  And then are you drawing this out in a post arrest interrogation?
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  So you can go through your career and not pay attention to any of that and still get by, but now you're losing benefit to getting into their heads.
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  Do you think, I'm trying to think out loud here.
• 10:08
  So it seems that many people in the West, if you will, have a very poor imagination of human evil.
• 10:17
  And.
• 10:17
  So, and particularly in themselves, I think you said something about that earlier, right?
• 10:22
  So because we can't see ourselves as potentially quote unquote evil people, then we lack the imagination to see it in others.
• 10:32
  And then there we sort of, I guess it's hard, I don't know how to articulate exactly how that manifests in our society and sort of the...
• 10:42
  difficulty we have having that conversation, even in the news at the dinner table, whatever.
• 10:48
  Does that kind of make sense?
• 10:49
  Can you help me make sense of that?
• 10:51
  Yeah.
• 10:51
  Well, I think some people don't want to know, which is, completely makes sense.
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  Why would I want to be burdened with knowing all of these things?
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  It's, it's healthy.
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  Also, it may be dangerous to you because if you're not aware, part of what I became aware with.
• 11:12
  of is not just those like worst things that we saw, but also the ancillary involvement with criminal behavior.
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  So here are four men that we're going to arrest that are involved in high volume drug sales.
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  And then here's 12 people who are also assisting, but they would never be charged and you know, it'd be too much to do, but
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  They're fine with it.
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  They're involved.
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  They're helping.
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  They're letting drugs be stored at their place.
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  They're giving rides, knowing, this is probably a drug deal.
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  So you get that sense of there's many people out there who are okay with this and that person just, you helped you carry groceries.
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  know, there's many people like that.
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  My,
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  My youngest had a job at a restaurant and she was telling me about the dishwasher who was like 50 years old.
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  And I said, Oh, well, your dishwasher is a felon.
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  And she said, but he's a nice guy.
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  said, okay, he's a felon because you're not going to be 50 years old and washing dishes, dishes, unless that's the only job you can get.
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  So, then there's, and then there's the worst of the things that we see, which just open your eyes to what people can do and then make you.
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  I get, again, if you're wise about it, you're questioning how does someone get driven there?
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  What's the path that they take?
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  And one, one young man we arrested maybe 15 years ago.
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  I won't go into the details, but it's the most, it's the story that's a showstopper when I tell it, even among FBI agents.
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  And it was something that you wouldn't like.
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  If I asked you to consider what's the worst, you would tell me and I go, no, you're not there yet.
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  And in his post arrest interrogation, he said, well, I got introduced to pornography when I was 12, which back then might've been something, but now that's the average age where
• 13:09
  boys are introduced to pornography.
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  And he said, then I just started going down this path, which got him into then child pornography.
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  And then also this other paraphilia that was way off the charts.
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  And that's.
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  And as we talked about, he just kept going.
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  So whether something drove him, he needed more fulfillment, he was coping with an emptiness or a stress or a problem.
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  It was going down that path, whereas someone else might be introduced to pornography at 12 and then, you know, just maintain and occasionally, you know, get involved and that's it.
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  And what happened with this person?
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  Did they go to prison?
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  Did they, how did that kind of unfold?
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  Yeah, we had a search warrant and arrest warrant for access and distribution of child pornography.
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  So many of the individuals involved in that area are ones who don't need me or anyone else to tell them they're disgusting because they already feel that they know it.
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  And, and many of them are the quickest to confess because
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  They've probably rehearsed this knowing that this is coming.
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  This day will be here.
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  I can't do this forever and I'll be caught.
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  And it's also like the lowest point for them too.
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  So, you know, if there's going to be sobbing, it's often with them.
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  Yeah, well, it's.
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  um Yeah, that's some.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  Fuck.
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  I actually when I did my training in a sex addiction clinic, and the really for men.
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  um No, but he the guy I worked for trained with Patrick Kearns.
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  Yeah.
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  Eric, his name is Eric Pearney.
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  It's in Toronto.
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  So
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  Okay.
• 14:59
  Yeah, but he often would say he would have conversations with the police about these things.
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  And the amount of pornography now that's just consumed.
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  Yeah, Jesus Christ.
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  It's wild.
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  Yeah.
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  we would have cases where this is, I had one case where a man had traveled about an hour and a half to engage with a 13 year old boy who looked like he was at least, I mean, 10,
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  maybe.
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  So the boy, when I first encountered him with his parents, seemed completely untraumatized.
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  He was laughing, he was telling me stories, matter of fact, like,
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  He was in art and performance school.
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  And so he was like showing me his dance moves and stuff.
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  And I was struck by that.
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  Like, this is odd.
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  They, however, had a mutually loving relationship.
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  Obviously, a 13-year-old boy can't make that choice.
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  But he didn't seem traumatized because this is something that he also thought he wanted.
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  And then as we uncovered more, and now I think the boy was shaken out of that mesmerizing, then he became angry later at his assailant when it wasn't just a secret thing between you
• 16:28
  and me.
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  It was now exposed and better understanding came in.
• 16:33
  And I bring that up also that that boy.
• 16:38
  is someone that we have to be aware of because if he doesn't get the help he needs, he's a subject in another few years because those men who are assaulting are the ones who were
• 16:52
  last generation's victims.
• 16:54
  Yeah, there's that saying not all are not all people who are abused become abusers, but all abusers have been abused.
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  Something like that.
• 17:02
  Yeah.
• 17:03
  man, it's heavy stuff.
• 17:04
  Yeah.
• 17:07
  You know, one of my skills is I'm able to let these things go pretty quickly, but it's heavy.
• 17:15
  I was gonna ask you something about that.
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  In cases like this, I think it goes back to sort of what we were talking about earlier.
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  Do or how do we help?
• 17:26
  That was the question it was.
• 17:27
  And one of the things I sort of discussed with with this guy who ran that clinic in my training was like these men who and it's primarily men, right, who engage in this kind of
• 17:38
  stuff.
• 17:40
  how do they get help and how to, so some of them are perhaps beyond help, the socio psychopathic ones for the other ones.
• 17:48
  Have you seen, or how does law enforcement, I don't know, is there any way that these people actually get help?
• 17:54
  The one case that I can identify with, had on a man who had been charged with child pornography back when you got it through the mail.
• 18:11
  then, I mean, this is so far back.
• 18:15
  now, so he's a registered sex offender and he was a rare breed.
• 18:20
  had a very aggressive attitude.
• 18:24
  So I was getting a search warrant on him for traveling to the Philippines and then also paying for an underage girl.
• 18:33
  And he was paying the family and, but he had, he had, he was very aggressive towards me, which I was fairly young in my career, but that was unique.
• 18:42
  I've never encountered someone who, was not shrinking in a corner.
• 18:48
  Hmm.
• 18:49
  because of the shame that they had.
• 18:52
  And he was going to a group, one of the members in the group I had interviewed as well.
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  And they all saw him as different as well.
• 19:00
  these were men who were like trying to overcome through, he probably had court mandated and he was, he might've been a sociopath too, but he was smart enough to
• 19:14
  know what to say and get the box checked, but still was living in what he had and he had no issue with it at all.
• 19:21
  maybe any other thoughts on all that?
• 19:24
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:27
  It's, yeah, yeah.
• 19:28
  we had too working in this realm is we were rescuing teenage girls who were runaways and then were engaging in sex work in order to survive.
• 19:38
  And those were the few times where, I mean, it's very frustrating because the pimp who was manipulating them was the love of their life.
• 19:47
  And so we're taking their boyfriend away.
• 19:51
  But those were the few times that you got some payoff to see, okay, this is a happy ending here, we're successful.
• 19:59
  And often that was an uphill battle because here you get ahold of the teenage girl and we've got to find something to do because we just sent her back to her home or foster
• 20:09
  home.
• 20:10
  She's just going to leave again.
• 20:12
  So many facets of hands involved with Guardian Adlytums.
• 20:17
  with victim specialists, with even the juvenile detention centers of working together to say, we're going to change this girl's life.
• 20:27
  Yeah, one thought that just brought up for me is the sort of the average or lay person often doesn't understand how complicated all of this stuff is, right?
• 20:38
  And how I have a brother who lives with schizophrenia and when he was really unwell, you know, it was basically jail or hospital.
• 20:48
  jail community service back into the home hospital jail can be like just that pattern of, he's relatively well now, which is great, but just the complicated nature of trying to
• 21:00
  help people like this is so complicated.
• 21:03
  And I, I guess you kind of just described the cycle of how people get help, but, how they, if it goes well, there's all these different pieces in place.
• 21:15
  Is there anything else that I don't know you think could be done?
• 21:21
  Is it sort of this is just the reality of being a human being in the world?
• 21:25
  How do you kind of think about that?
• 21:27
  Well, the success that we had was when each arm was working together, usually coordinated by the FBI because there kind of has to be somebody taking charge.
• 21:37
  so the easiest part was locating these girls and then getting them out.
• 21:41
  The hardest part was consistency.
• 21:45
  And so sometimes there were charity groups, uh ministries, there were these foundations set up for,
• 21:53
  by laypeople, by civilians to help out.
• 21:56
  And like we could go ahead and pick the girl up.
• 21:59
  We can arrest pimps, but there's no avenue for us as the FBI to do more.
• 22:06
  And we were leaning upon just the community to have some type of halfway house, something that can step in to get these girls in a place where they could see adults probably for
• 22:18
  the first time.
• 22:20
  advocating for them so they could see, all right, there's a benefit in buying into this.
• 22:25
  I don't need to just go right back out on the street.
• 22:27
  Are you, I can never say his name properly.
• 22:29
  Are you familiar with Solzhenitsyn?
• 22:33
  He wrote the Gulag Akra Pelago.
• 22:36
  Read it many years ago.
• 22:39
  Oh, OK.
• 22:40
  Yeah, but I'm pretty familiar with his stuff.
• 22:43
  And one of the things he sort of said was basically like, he is responsible for getting himself into the Gulag and he is responsible for all, just that notion of we are all
• 22:55
  responsible for everything that goes on.
• 22:57
  And the tension of...
• 23:01
  At the same time as I say that it's well I'm also not responsible for how this other person behaves of course But there is that deeper sense of responsibility
• 23:12
  And that is a well-meaning idea and it comes back to self-awareness.
• 23:19
  So, you know, obviously for talking about teenage runaway girls who've never had good parental instruction in the first place, even if they did, there's that lack of awareness
• 23:30
  of thinking I need to take care of me and stop complaining about everyone else and their effects on me.
• 23:36
  So yeah, how do we teach accountability?
• 23:39
  And do we even have an audience with one of these girls or one of the victims so that they can learn that?
• 23:47
  It's very difficult indeed.
• 23:48
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:52
  That's right.
• 23:53
  That's right.
• 23:53
  That is that's right.
• 23:55
  well, I think just to touch on that and relate it to the, you know, maybe your pastoral work, like I sobered up at 30 really through AA and a lot of help outside help, but
• 24:09
  developing a relationship with my understanding of God was tremendously helpful.
• 24:14
  and still is to this day.
• 24:16
  And it doesn't, I guess I'm curious what your thoughts are on, can we have a relation or what do you think about this idea that people can have a relationship with the existential
• 24:28
  or this concept of God that we have?
• 24:30
  it, I don't think I can parse it from a religious context, but I don't sort of relive live within a religious context, but
• 24:39
  Can normal, what Gentiles is it or something, have that relationship?
• 24:45
  Well, I would think so.
• 24:46
  have, life was easier when we were younger, cause, you know, I knew what was right.
• 24:52
  And if you didn't believe that it was wrong.
• 24:54
  And now things have widened into different understandings for me, which is great.
• 25:00
  I, we call that maturity.
• 25:02
  And so I think there's so much that can be embraced and hopefully.
• 25:09
  that idea of I know absolutes even if the Bible says so.
• 25:13
  There, that interpretation can mean so many different things the way I apply it to my life.
• 25:17
  And so I think there's opportunities for the, for, for someone to follow a system of values that can be separated from the church or loosely connected or have something
• 25:34
  different.
• 25:36
  And I will fight someone about that because we see people.
• 25:41
  In America, I'm sure you guys got them in Canada too, who are fully connected with the divine inspiration of the Bible and are unkind humans.
• 25:51
  One might even say assholes.
• 25:52
  you know, because humanity gets in there and now my understanding of what's right and wrong is a weapon for me to hit you with.
• 26:01
  And I would often quote a verse from Ephesians that's
• 26:06
  talks about speaking the truth and love until I realize that, well, I'm just trying to speak the truth as I understand it and my love is correcting you.
• 26:19
  And so now I try to not speak the truth and love, I just love, because that's gonna cover a multitude of problems.
• 26:27
  And just so I understand that properly, are you sort of saying some people rationalize their manipulative behavior through gospel kind of thing?
• 26:39
  Yes, this is outside of the FBI.
• 26:45
  People start with emotions.
• 26:47
  They're moved by desires and wants rather than values.
• 26:51
  So rather than taking these are my values.
• 26:54
  I've gotten many of them from the Bible, from traditions.
• 26:59
  They start with desires and emotions and
• 27:03
  and then act upon them and then later come back and say, let me back that up by this Bible verse.
• 27:09
  And I see that, so I've got two transgender kids and I see that in, for many Christians, they're abominations.
• 27:20
  And I think, well, I don't know that God thinks that.
• 27:22
  So rather than respond according to,
• 27:27
  your feelings and your opinion and then go back and try to find a verse that supports it, why not take something that we can probably agree on, which is God is love and his
• 27:40
  foremost opinion is likely going to be we should treat each other with kindness like humans.
• 27:47
  try to argue with me on that one.
• 27:49
  Yeah, no, I mean, I'm getting goosebumps because that that notion is basically what helped me put my life back together when I could when I could apply it to myself.
• 27:58
  Right?
• 27:59
  Yeah.
• 27:59
  Yeah.
• 28:01
  Yeah.
• 28:02
  Yeah.
• 28:02
  Yeah.
• 28:03
  self-hating in you that was driving you to alcoholism?
• 28:08
  I think it I mean, it's hard to know, like, and my drug of choice was weed.
• 28:14
  um Because I knew I wouldn't die.
• 28:17
  I remember at like, 13 years old being like, I was around a lot of criminals and watching them do cocaine and all these things.
• 28:23
  And I was like, if I do that, I'm in big trouble.
• 28:27
  And, fuck.
• 28:28
  And so, you know, I did lots of
• 28:30
  I never actually did cocaine, but I drank and I did other drugs.
• 28:33
  But, I think that, so the pattern of behavior, kind of like you were talking about before, I knew what I was doing was wrong.
• 28:40
  So I knew that I was one treating myself terribly because I was treating myself terribly.
• 28:45
  Then I would treat other people poorly.
• 28:47
  So I knew that was wrong.
• 28:49
  And, it, I don't know my, my higher, my God essence or whatever my, my
• 28:54
  morals started hate like I started hating myself because of this right and so then yeah go ahead yeah yeah
• 29:04
  than saying I've got a friction here because I'm not living up to my morals, I will act out because I don't feel good acting against my morals.
• 29:13
  So now I'll get cranky about it with others or, know, now I'll blame other people.
• 29:17
  yeah, for sure.
• 29:18
  That's no doubt.
• 29:20
  mean, that's the number one.
• 29:21
  That is one of the main symptoms of an addict, right?
• 29:24
  As your, reason I'm an addict is because of how you treat me kind of thing.
• 29:28
  No ability for self reflection and responsibility.
• 29:33
  And so that internal hatred of I'm such a piece of shit.
• 29:37
  Uh, you know, I'm this, I'm that what's wrong with me, et cetera.
• 29:41
  that I think was the first or the most important thing for me personally to heal.
• 29:46
  And then, so once I stopped lying and stopped treating people, I wasn't like, anyway, it's all relative, but once I stopped doing that, right, and acted in alignment with those, for
• 29:59
  me, God given values and morals, et cetera, then that self hatred started to slip away.
• 30:07
  And then I realized I'm actually not a total piece of shit.
• 30:11
  I can act ethically.
• 30:12
  I can be a good person.
• 30:14
  And that was just tremendously liberating and bringing it back to what you just said about your kids.
• 30:21
  That notion of we are all children of God and we're all deserving of dignity and respect, I think is the fundamental human truth.
• 30:31
  Well, and with that, came to a point that the FBI is a conservative organization and I would hear colleagues talk about transgender issues and they'd have strong opinions
• 30:45
  because we're just talking about issues.
• 30:47
  We're just talking about something on the news.
• 30:50
  And uh Gordon Alport posited the contact theory, I think in the fifties, the idea that
• 30:59
  people can be monsterized, they can be enemies because we lack that contact.
• 31:04
  So the more that you have contact with a black person, you're like, oh, hey, that guy is, if all that I see is that kid on the corner selling drugs, hear stories of black gang
• 31:14
  violence, then they're all terrible.
• 31:17
  And so I tried to then bring that to people to say, well, hey, you know, I've got transgender kids.
• 31:23
  So now it's...
• 31:24
  Well, now I have to actually think about that because that's my friend and he has children.
• 31:28
  have children.
• 31:30
  You know, what would that be like to bring this out of just being an issue and more into this is actual real life and what you're talking about is a human.
• 31:43
  This is a person, not something we can debate right or wrong on.
• 31:47
  That's my, that was my little hope to do.
• 31:49
  Yeah, the
• 31:51
  There's so much good psychological examination and all that stuff, which I long for, but in our profession, it's not a, you know, we claim to be good at that type of thing about
• 32:03
  having those difficult conversations, but we're not very good at it.
• 32:06
  Unfortunately, I guess humans aren't.
• 32:08
  So.
• 32:09
  I kind of, kind of, do you have experience working in the terrorism kind of front and that kind of stuff?
• 32:16
  Yeah.
• 32:17
  Yeah, my last years in the FBI were working national security counterterrorism and that involved both domestic and international terrorism.
• 32:25
  The domestic terrorists were the racially motivated violent extremists, which you would call a Nazi.
• 32:31
  And then also, you know, those from outside who were looking to bring ISIS, know, ideals here to kill people.
• 32:40
  And then also it included
• 32:42
  developing informants who could give us positive foreign intelligence on movements in other countries, attitudes, that type of thing.
• 32:49
  of so many questions about that stuff.
• 32:52
  one, maybe the first one is how does the FBI, no one's perfect obviously, manage the political influences of the elected government?
• 33:07
  Well, there's going to be different policies and influences based on different administrations.
• 33:15
  And that will trickle down to a degree.
• 33:18
  However, for the most part, we deal with what's in front of us, what is happening in our community, what informants bring us and
• 33:28
  If this administration is saying, emphasize this, we're like, yeah, okay, we'll have that in mind.
• 33:34
  But also if it's not there, it's not there.
• 33:36
  For example, under Trump's first administration, our attorney general was saying, hey, let's go after Antifa.
• 33:44
  Well, there were many protests and some of them were semi-violent or involved destruction of property.
• 33:51
  So yeah, we can look at Antifa to see if they're out there plotting to
• 33:56
  bring harm or destruction of government property.
• 33:59
  And at least in my area, there was nothing.
• 34:02
  So we're looking at it, but we can't bring up charges if they're not there and not valid.
• 34:09
  Yeah, that's actually a great, that's a great way.
• 34:12
  I've never sort of heard, I've never heard it put that way.
• 34:15
  And that's helpful to clarify because so many people just assume, you know, whether it's the Trump or the Republicans or the Democrats or whatever, you know, the whole conspiracy
• 34:27
  kind of all that kind of stuff.
• 34:29
  How, how, how do you, as an employee or whatever, how do you guys deal with that kind of stuff too?
• 34:36
  cross our fingers and hope nobody from DC gets involved in any of our cases.
• 34:42
  Because the agents just want to do this.
• 34:45
  Like I've got a subject, I think he's a legitimate, this is a righteous subject, let's go get him.
• 34:51
  And I don't want to have somebody saying, oh, you should do this.
• 34:56
  probably the closest that came to was the January 6 riots where, okay,
• 35:03
  Now we have to work these cases.
• 35:05
  We've got over a thousand of them and they never should have been there in the first place because this shouldn't have happened.
• 35:13
  But now here's all the manpower to go out and look into these.
• 35:16
  And nobody was excited about doing it.
• 35:18
  We did it because it's our job and it got assigned to us.
• 35:21
  But nobody is like, yeah, I love this case because I'm going to get this guy.
• 35:25
  You get him because he broke the rules and you know, now he'll get a
• 35:29
  right.
• 35:31
  Right, right.
• 35:33
  Yeah, I think that's and that's a or maybe it seems that's a hard thing to do, I guess, right to separate the task from the all the influences going on around the task.
• 35:44
  man.
• 35:44
  Okay.
• 35:45
  Thank you for that.
• 35:46
  Another question about that type of work.
• 35:49
  This is maybe more civilizational question.
• 35:54
  The Do you see it as a clash of civilizations when it comes to, I guess, religious extreme influence terrorism?
• 36:03
  And?
• 36:04
  Or is that a simplification kind of idea?
• 36:07
  Right?
• 36:07
  There's these
• 36:08
  I guess this happened a lot after 9-11.
• 36:11
  Here's these people who don't share our values and they want to destroy our civilization kind of thing.
• 36:18
  So we must defend against them.
• 36:20
  My perspective is in some sense at some point there is a clash of values and a way of living in the world.
• 36:27
  Does that mean it manifests into these global conflicts?
• 36:31
  Yeah, there's always going to be a clash of values because, you know, I'm frustrated that the world isn't the way I want it to be.
• 36:39
  Well, it's not going to be.
• 36:42
  In the cases that we had,
• 36:44
  involving like Muslim extremists who are looking to carry out jihad.
• 36:48
  For the most part, it was much more individual.
• 36:52
  So they may, we had one who opposed the government and hated it, but I don't believe that he was foolish enough to think my attack, if successful, will actually change things.
• 37:06
  I think it was more of an individual
• 37:08
  This is my duty to God.
• 37:10
  I oppose this.
• 37:12
  I want to stand up and say something about it and get attention.
• 37:17
  also the United States of America isn't going to change because one man kills 10 people.
• 37:23
  That's a Tuesday for the United States of America.
• 37:28
  So I don't think they were, any of them that we worked with were so disillusioned.
• 37:33
  that they thought they were actually gonna bring about real change.
• 37:37
  We had, was assisting another agent on a case in another city because I didn't inform it who could get in with this guy.
• 37:44
  And it was a young man who was getting deeper and deeper into a jihadi ideal.
• 37:51
  And we also had knowledge that he was getting deeper and deeper.
• 37:54
  And I'm sorry to bring this back around into child pornography.
• 37:58
  And so the fear is, there's only one way that I can absolve all my sins for God.
• 38:04
  And that is to kill the infidels and as many as possible.
• 38:10
  And that has happened before that.
• 38:11
  think that was in the, the Nice truck attack in Paris where the driver killed many people.
• 38:20
  And then his ex-wife was said, this guy, you know, he's Muslim, but he eats bacon.
• 38:24
  Well,
• 38:25
  between the time they separated, he realized or was influenced to say, I was so terrible.
• 38:31
  I must absolve my sins in a great way.
• 38:36
  And there was a fear that that was going to take place.
• 38:38
  Yeah, that's an interesting insight.
• 38:40
  You don't hear that in the news, I guess, right?
• 38:44
  Like, yeah, that's really helpful to hear.
• 38:47
  I guess.
• 38:49
  The thoughts I'm having right now, I don't really know if it's the right question to ask, but I think often about...
• 38:54
  Global conflict.
• 38:56
  outside of perhaps domestic terrorism or whatnot, I interviewed a guy who worked for CSIS and Canada doesn't do foreign espionage or whatever.
• 39:07
  or so they say, but God, don't what, anyway, I don't want to go into my domestic political perspectives.
• 39:18
  um
• 39:19
  Like, I think the main thought is just this idea of the clash of civilizations.
• 39:24
  And is that even real?
• 39:26
  And, and maybe at a law enforcement level, are you guys in contact with the military and I guess, I don't know really know how to ask the question.
• 39:36
  Maybe you can try to make sense of my scattered thoughts here.
• 39:39
  Like how does that all, you know, going back to
• 39:41
  What are our civilizational values?
• 39:43
  they in conflict?
• 39:44
  I guess like there's global conflicts right now and how it all kind of shakes out.
• 39:50
  And I don't think there's too many Americans, if you ask them, ask a thousand Americans, do you hate the Iranian people?
• 39:59
  And I don't think there'd be too many say, yeah, they're terrible.
• 40:02
  Like that cultural conflict is between the one in power and the one in power.
• 40:09
  And there's certainly going to be some in America who say, well, okay, well, I support my government protecting me in this way.
• 40:15
  And that's a valid idea.
• 40:17
  And if that's the case, then it's not so much the conflict of our belief systems or
• 40:23
  of our cultures.
• 40:25
  That's part of what I talked to you about with the uh contact theory.
• 40:30
  Most people are going to get along.
• 40:33
  I had one individual ask me, are you concerned with how America is becoming less Christian?
• 40:38
  I'm like, well, yeah, if America became unchristian or became Muslim, that would be uncomfortable to me, but I know many patriotic Muslims.
• 40:47
  I studied Islam and I know there's a lot of great
• 40:51
  principles there.
• 40:53
  So if they're gonna bring out the good principles, fine.
• 40:56
  I know many Christians who are great people and I know many terrible ones.
• 41:01
  If they're bring out the bad parts or what they how they perceive it, like any group can be abusive and yet most groups are going to say, you know, I'm fine with you living your
• 41:13
  life the way you want to live them.
• 41:14
  Yeah, it's my I think about that type of stuff quite often or I don't know.
• 41:21
  And it it I find it incredibly fascinating.
• 41:25
  And I love that you brought up the contact theory too, because I have done a lot of I guess work in public advocacy advocacy primarily with mental illness and those kind of
• 41:34
  things.
• 41:35
  And then also more maybe in the last five years or so in work.
• 41:40
  place environments where all these sort of diversity initiatives and yada yada.
• 41:46
  None of them actually focused on this contact theory idea, which is so backwards, but anyhow, but all the research is so clear.
• 41:53
  I mean, the contact theory really is the way that we relate to each other better for sure.
• 41:58
  right, rather than saying, well, let's see if we can get more diversity so people can just see each other.
• 42:04
  I'm going to have you sit in on this lecture and I'll make you have to watch this video.
• 42:10
  And now you resent it because it's wasting your time and you get the opposite result.
• 42:15
  Yep.
• 42:16
  Yep.
• 42:16
  Yeah.
• 42:16
  And the research is just crystal clear on that stuff.
• 42:19
  And it's, uh, it kind of goes back into the whole human, uh, the difficulty with sort of separating your impulsive bias, egoic driven, I need to be right.
• 42:34
  And I need to be in control from, can I just let that go and sort of
• 42:40
  step back a little bit and yeah.
• 42:42
  Right.
• 42:43
  And it goes back to your statements of understanding that you affect you more than I affect you.
• 42:50
  This is something that, you know, if, something that you do bothers me, how much of it is that something that I should change about my management of that versus me confronting you
• 43:03
  and saying, Hey, can you stop doing that?
• 43:05
  Cause it upsets me.
• 43:06
  may be that I, I would be better suited because
• 43:10
  Everyone does that and I'm going to be better suited to take care of that myself.
• 43:14
  Yeah.
• 43:14
  How did that come into maybe some of your more difficult police work or I don't know if you call FBI work.
• 43:25
  What's the word for FBI work?
• 43:27
  Police work.
• 43:28
  Do you call it that?
• 43:29
  Do people call it that?
• 43:30
  Yeah.
• 43:30
  work FBI law inform whatever investigations.
• 43:33
  Yeah.
• 43:34
  right.
• 43:35
  in interrogations or in, dangerous situations where firearms are involved and all those kinds of things, how do you, what's the, I don't know, training around that or how do
• 43:47
  people like yourself maintain that centeredness?
• 43:51
  I guess.
• 43:53
  For me, it was from having experience.
• 43:57
  eventually, early on, I'm looking at my squad mates, those next to me, and I'm seeing that they're confident what they do.
• 44:06
  Later as I'm growing in competency, I know that I've been through this, I've been through that, and I can take care of what I'm doing.
• 44:14
  Later on SWOT, then, you know, there was never a time where
• 44:19
  we had an operation on SWOT where I felt fear because I knew what I could do.
• 44:26
  And I knew the guys next to me were least as good as me.
• 44:28
  So I knew they're going to cover my back and we'd get through it.
• 44:32
  Maybe that's naivete because it's a survivorship bias of like, I always go home.
• 44:36
  So this is great.
• 44:39
  But knowing what I could do just made me confident.
• 44:43
  And so
• 44:44
  Now all that I can focus on that I need is what's my role?
• 44:49
  Do I have the equipment to do it?
• 44:51
  You know, what else do I need?
• 44:54
  And then we go.
• 44:55
  So we had a complex operations order.
• 45:00
  Everyone knew their parts.
• 45:02
  And then there's also times where off of that, now we are moving into a separate area and someone else has to lead.
• 45:10
  We weren't waiting for the team leader to make call the next step.
• 45:12
  It's.
• 45:13
  This is the overall view.
• 45:15
  Okay.
• 45:16
  He's calling.
• 45:17
  He's almost the guy with the gun or the girl with the flag to say, okay, now go.
• 45:25
  And at that point we are now we have new leaders.
• 45:29
  I'm in a hallway.
• 45:30
  I'm looking down the hall.
• 45:32
  I see, uh, open door, left closed door.
• 45:36
  We're going to flow into the first door and then you guys pick it up.
• 45:39
  like, so now I'm leading.
• 45:41
  And then the next guy has something else too.
• 45:43
  So just knowing we've all got this, we've done it.
• 45:47
  It allowed for us to feel, think that we, to me it almost made him enjoyable because now we could go through and say, all right, I'm gonna test myself.
• 45:53
  Let's see how this is.
• 45:54
  Yeah, it's such a unique, not many people can relate to that.
• 45:59
  They can perhaps relate to the teamwork, but not to the reality of what you and people like you do in those situations.
• 46:08
  And maybe not in that specific, but they can relate to flow.
• 46:12
  So this is a high pressure situation.
• 46:15
  I'm pretty talented and I'm hitting that mark and going, oh, this is great.
• 46:20
  This is exactly the way it should be.
• 46:22
  And now I get that flow.
• 46:23
  Yeah, yeah.
• 46:24
  And the the presence right where you're you're really in that in the your super focused and not distracted.
• 46:31
  Can you talk a little bit about
• 46:33
  What do they call?
• 46:34
  What's, what's the, there's like a word for state ownership of the guns, basically state change, st st sanctioned violence.
• 46:43
  think it's the, how, when, when we think about global conflicts and since the end of world war two, more so in Canada than in the U S for sure, because you guys have been fighting
• 46:58
  wars and have a lot of combat experience.
• 47:02
  We're so disconnected from the reality that not that long ago, like the world was at war for thousands of years really, or however long since the end of World War Two, it's argued
• 47:14
  that has calmed down a little bit.
• 47:16
  And my children, your children in some sense, just I guess, more so in Canada, again, we're so disconnected from this reality of violence, the human violence and
• 47:28
  I often say to people, well, the reason why your life or a reason why your life is so good is because, well, one, we live in North America, we're protected from a lot of stuff, but
• 47:39
  also because we got the bombs, right?
• 47:42
  And we have the guns and thank God that we do, because if they were in the hands of these other people, perhaps your life wouldn't be the way it is.
• 47:50
  can you maybe shed insight on all of that kind of stuff?
• 47:53
  So I have probably, I say this tongue in cheek, but also real.
• 47:59
  I am certain that I have a different perspective on gun ownership than most of the people in the FBI.
• 48:07
  I believe that, least in America, so America has too many guns.
• 48:11
  And I start with the premise that people who shouldn't own guns, shouldn't own guns.
• 48:18
  So that's a tautology, so you can't even argue with it.
• 48:21
  But there are many people that shouldn't.
• 48:24
  So I've got a buddy who's got over a dozen guns.
• 48:28
  I'm fine with him having guns.
• 48:30
  But that's because I know him and I know he's responsible.
• 48:32
  And yet we've had so many people who shouldn't.
• 48:35
  I would love it if there were no guns.
• 48:36
  That solves two problems right there.
• 48:38
  One, obviously gun violence.
• 48:40
  And secondly, now the only way for me to exert power over you
• 48:45
  is physically and so then I'm going to get in shape.
• 48:47
  then we have a fitter country.
• 48:49
  look, that solves everything right there.
• 48:53
  But yeah, we in the FBI at least, I mean, we use our guns as pressure for you to make the right decision.
• 49:03
  So when the SWAT team would hit a house and I've got
• 49:07
  an armored bear cat and other armored vehicles and we've got lasers pointing to windows and here's 15 guys and you look out your window, you're safe because you know you can't
• 49:20
  oppose us.
• 49:20
  And if you do, you're going to die.
• 49:22
  So that makes the situation safer.
• 49:25
  So in the right hands, it's great.
• 49:29
  The tough thing is there's very little done, at least in America to determine which are those right hands.
• 49:36
  And that's a whole nother conversation.
• 49:38
  What about at the global level?
• 49:40
  Like, how do you kind of see it play out there?
• 49:43
  as far as.
• 49:44
  military power.
• 49:45
  Yeah.
• 49:46
  And just trying to enforce or protect whatever, you know, I know these sort of words can get thrown around.
• 49:54
  But there's a reality to that, right?
• 49:56
  Like the reason America is not getting invaded is because of the military and etc.
• 50:01
  Yeah.
• 50:01
  And I think we typically have used that same principle that we have bombs, we have a mighty military, and that keeps you safe because you know, you can't oppose us.
• 50:15
  And if you do, it's going to be drastic.
• 50:17
  And yet we have long drawn out wars in Iraq, in Afghanistan.
• 50:24
  And so if a bluff is called,
• 50:28
  then we have many men getting killed, expensive wars.
• 50:33
  And that's when I turn it back over to you into the psychology of it.
• 50:36
  like, so how do we deal with this without creating so much bloodshed?
• 50:41
  Right, Well, I wish I was qualified to answer that.
• 50:44
  mean, I have ideas, certainly, but but I don't think we can escape the reality of at some point.
• 50:52
  Well, first, humans.
• 50:56
  We have to recognize that we are capable of extreme violence, all of us individually.
• 51:02
  And that is our that is a huge part of our history is just
• 51:06
  violence.
• 51:06
  And we haven't somehow evolved out of that.
• 51:10
  And so I think there's a lack of realism on that front, where, you know, if we all just sat around the table and talked and agreed to, you know, collaborated negotiated, then we
• 51:21
  wouldn't have to fight wars like that's crazy to me.
• 51:24
  There's no way that's possible.
• 51:26
  For as a long standing way of solving problems.
• 51:30
  because humans aren't capable of that, right?
• 51:32
  Eventually someone's like, fuck, and then, you know, they just pull out the gun or whatever, or the bomb or the missile.
• 51:39
  And so I don't know if we can escape that.
• 51:42
  I don't know if that's a pessimistic view or not, but yeah.
• 51:45
  Well, I think history is going to back you up on that.
• 51:49
  And there's been bad actors along the way, but yeah, you can't say every time there was always, you know, a special circumstance.
• 51:59
  So yeah, there will be occasions that, know, back a little older than you probably.
• 52:06
  So, you know, back during the cold war, there was that notion of we're all like, I grew up.
• 52:13
  with that threat of a nuclear bomb coming and we see a TV show called the day after of what happens and everyone's always scared and yet both sides did not use nuclear weapons
• 52:24
  because they were afraid of nuclear weapons and that ability alone was a deterrent.
• 52:31
  And now we have smaller wars.
• 52:32
  yeah, right, exactly.
• 52:34
  I do think maybe to deposit some optimism on it all, I do think it comes back to or a potential solution or way we can reduce these things going forward is that value
• 52:47
  structure, right?
• 52:48
  There is a moral code.
• 52:50
  I can't remember the exact quote of m Martin Luther King Jr., but.
• 52:54
  What is it?
• 52:55
  The arc of justice bends slowly or something like that.
• 52:58
  Or do you know that quote?
• 52:59
  I can't remember what it is, but yeah, yeah.
• 53:03
  Yeah.
• 53:03
  Okay.
• 53:04
  I I Yeah.
• 53:05
  I won't.
• 53:06
  but so I do think there is a, there is a path.
• 53:09
  There is a, a godly sort of structure to human affairs, to reduce violence and all that and reduce human suffering.
• 53:17
  Definitely.
• 53:18
  And at the same time,
• 53:20
  I think we lack a little bit of realism on the nature of the human capacity to avoid conflict.
• 53:27
  And, um, I, you I think we're evolving towards that.
• 53:31
  Hopefully, some might say we're evolving in the other direction.
• 53:34
  I don't know.
• 53:34
  but that's sort of how I tend to, and then the responsibility piece of what am I doing today on April 16th?
• 53:42
  to regulate my emotions, to calm myself down, to be a kinder, more accepting, resilient human being so that I can help bring about this better future.
• 53:52
  Yeah.
• 53:52
  I, I try.
• 53:54
  So I follow the news.
• 53:56
  follow issues quite a bit.
• 53:59
  And yet it brings me back to when my oldest graduated college, one of the student speakers said, I'm going to be someone who changes the world.
• 54:10
  And I had a discussion with my wife afterwards and number, number one, no, you're not.
• 54:16
  Yeah.
• 54:17
  Yeah.
• 54:19
  Yeah.
• 54:20
  hypothetical discussion.
• 54:22
  But if you sat down and you listed, let's just, people who changed the world and, you know, actually had an impact.
• 54:30
  So let's say in the last century, there's a hundred people who did that, like actually changed the world.
• 54:37
  If you go back through history, anyone who changes the world has abandoned their family.
• 54:43
  Because if you're gonna change the world, you don't have time for family.
• 54:47
  You can't.
• 54:49
  And so you see that higher calling of yes, but I'm bringing goodness to the world and yet your children hate you.
• 54:55
  And so I look at that and I think, well, I don't need to change the world.
• 54:59
  I need to focus here, try to do this.
• 55:03
  And if I'm lucky, maybe this.
• 55:05
  And that expanding circle probably doesn't get too big.
• 55:10
  And I feel honored that I got to do that, work well with my family, and then also have a church congregation.
• 55:18
  And then I got to work well with my family and be in the FBI.
• 55:23
  And oh in some ways that expanded pretty decent.
• 55:26
  You know, maybe it was kind of jagged, like it went way out here, but I got to do good things for my community too.
• 55:32
  And that's about as far as I'm going to push my limits.
• 55:35
  Yeah, that, that notion of if you want it, what Michael Jackson man, and maybe he's not the best reference point, but, you know, man in the mirror idea of if, if you want to
• 55:47
  change the world, look in the mirror and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 55:54
  Yeah.
• 55:56
  Yeah.
• 55:56
  Yeah.
• 55:56
  Yeah.
• 55:58
  there's a saying in AA, something like, if you think you're so enlightened, how are you doing at home?
• 56:04
  kind of idea.
• 56:04
  You what would your kids say about about your spiritual maturity?
• 56:08
  It depends on the day, I guess, but that that willingness to look in the mirror.
• 56:14
  I think is is the one of the best, if not the best spiritual teaching that's been passed on for thousands of years, really.
• 56:22
  So and that's the whole starts with me kind of idea.
• 56:25
  I really find that empowering.
• 56:27
  And I think people do as well.
• 56:29
  Yeah.
• 56:30
  I like that and then I like the curiosity of listening to you.
• 56:36
  So I'm going to spend time on me, but I'm also going to open up to what you have to say.
• 56:46
  so that came through so much in my work, obviously in ministry, but in the FBI too, that I can't come to my interaction with you with the belief that I know
• 56:59
  truth.
• 57:00
  If you have something different to tell me, I'm going to benefit from listening.
• 57:05
  Even if what you tell me, I end up abandoning and saying, well, that's garbage.
• 57:09
  But I need to be curious about what you are presenting and let that come out, not be defensive, not stop you, but let that get drawn out.
• 57:20
  That was with obviously with victims and witnesses with informants, but even with the criminals, if they want to tell me something that opposes the
• 57:28
  evidence that I have, go ahead, let me hear it.
• 57:32
  Let me hear what you have to say.
• 57:34
  And I'm going to put that in the calculus.
• 57:37
  Yep.
• 57:39
  Yes, that is a, a, I sometimes have difficulty doing that with my children.
• 57:45
  that was nice to hear you remind me of that, importance.
• 57:53
  any, I guess, as I sort of watch the clock here, any, any other things that you
• 57:59
  want to mention that we haven't discussed or that are sort of top of mind for you today, yeah.
• 58:05
  if folks want to hear the story of what would happen if you took a Baptist pastor who's never handled a gun and you stuck him in the FBI and he got to do SWAT stuff, then they
• 58:16
  can read my book.
• 58:17
  So coming out in the fall, I've written a memoir called Irreverent from Saving Souls to Chasing Sinners in the FBI.
• 58:25
  while I get to tell some great stories about investigations I was a part of or I initiated,
• 58:30
  It's also all from the perspective of a man who used to be a Baptist pastor.
• 58:35
  So my interactions, and here's how I came to this as someone who was in ministry before.
• 58:42
  And then I think probably what would touch home for you too, is that we have in SWAT and in law enforcement after we carry out an operation.
• 58:53
  we do what's called an after action review, which is talking about what, what we did right and wrong.
• 58:58
  What do we need to maintain throw away?
• 59:01
  And so for each chapter talking about what we did, I follow with an after action review of, this is why that didn't go well, or this is why we were successful and, reflecting on
• 59:12
  how things were done well or not so well in each of these cases.
• 59:17
  So I think that.
• 59:19
  Some of the stuff I have to say is pretty funny and insightful.
• 59:25
  it always amazed me that I got to do this, that years after I'm looking back and it seems like a blip of, well, I was a pastor, but I also did this for 24 years.
• 59:34
  That's pretty cool.
• 59:36
  Yeah, amazing.
• 59:37
  Can you you have won awards right as well or your teams have won awards attorney general awards?
• 59:43
  This is pretty amazing.
• 59:44
  If you could leave people with I don't know, a couple.
• 59:48
  skills or just ways that you handled really difficult situations.
• 59:53
  What would you say to people?
• 59:56
  Well, curiosity was always a big one for me and...
• 1:00:00
  One of those cases that I had that won an attorney general's award was an investigation into a terrorist named Yahya Farouk Mohammed.
• 1:00:10
  And without going into too, too much, we had a case on him providing financing to Anwar Al-Aqe who was the mouthpiece for Al-Qaeda.
• 1:00:22
  he was funding Al-Qaeda, so he was arrested on that.
• 1:00:25
  But he also believed that if he killed his judge, he would be able to get out of prison.
• 1:00:31
  And so we heard from a jailhouse informant.
• 1:00:36
  He had his reason.
• 1:00:37
  It wasn't good, but, but a jailhouse informant contacted us and said, Hey, this guy says he wants to kill his judge.
• 1:00:44
  And so I'd had jailhouse informants before.
• 1:00:47
  And I was pretty sour on that because.
• 1:00:50
  I, no benefit had come from it.
• 1:00:53
  And so while I was the case agent on that, my buddy Sean was a younger agent and he convinced me to say, let's take a shot.
• 1:01:01
  Let's see what he's got.
• 1:01:03
  Because the whole idea of wiring up a guy and send him back in the prison is it.
• 1:01:07
  It goes, it's a lot of steps.
• 1:01:10
  And so Sean convinced me, I said, okay, let's do it.
• 1:01:13
  And we ended up, you know, the former goes back and says, Hey, you know, a couple of days ago when you're telling me about killing your.
• 1:01:19
  Your judge tell me about that again, and you know son of a gun he told him again, so we end up working that case on him and getting him charged and I Probably maybe wouldn't
• 1:01:32
  bother doing it Because I'd been there I'd had the experience That's why they sent me to work on that squad's like hey, you're a senior guy You can teach him stuff and yet my
• 1:01:41
  experience was the kind of thing that was a detriment and the younger guys were the ones who were hungry
• 1:01:46
  And so I'll just say this, even at the end of my career, I was asking younger kids for their direction.
• 1:01:55
  They had experiences I didn't always trying to learn from them.
• 1:01:58
  And at the very least saying, you seem to have a lot of energy.
• 1:02:03
  Let me tag along with you.
• 1:02:04
  You you've got that go get them.
• 1:02:07
  I'm kind of lacking that because I've been around a bit, but thanks for inspiring me.
• 1:02:11
  Let's go.
• 1:02:12
  Yeah, beautiful.
• 1:02:15
  Wonderful.
• 1:02:16
  Well, you said the book comes out in the fall.
• 1:02:18
  in the fall so you can follow me on Instagram at underscore Eric underscore Robinson or on LinkedIn which put FBI and Eric Robinson or on my website which and I hope you enjoy this.
• 1:02:33
  The website is preacher to breacher.com.
• 1:02:36
  That's amazing.
• 1:02:37
  Yeah, all that information will be in the in the show notes for people to check out and Eric, thank you so much for your time and wisdom and willingness to share all of this with
• 1:02:48
  me and those listening.
• 1:02:50
  Great.
• 1:02:50
  Thank you, Mike.
• 1:02:50
  Thanks for listening to this episode of the State of Mind podcast.
• 1:02:55
  Before you go, please consider bringing one idea, one practice, one insight with you and practicing it this week.
• 1:03:04
  Let go of any expectations and see what happens.
• 1:03:08
  If you enjoyed this, subscribe, follow us here on Substack on YouTube
• 1:03:14
  Leave us a kind, encouraging review if you feel so inclined.
• 1:03:19
  and share this episode with someone who you think might find it helpful.
• 1:03:22
  Remember, live with courage, clarity, and compassion.
• 1:03:27
  I wish you all the very best.
• 1:03:29
  Take it easy.
• 1:03:30
  Peace out.