Latest / The Growth Project / Episode 372: The Psychology of March Madness

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Episode 372: The Psychology of March Madness · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  What was John Wooden's great quote, the strength of the team as a team. And I think that's what you see in, in in some of these overachieving teams that there's something extra that is added like me being a part of this team brings out the best in me, but it also brings out the best in you.
• 0:15
  And I can't quite put my finger on it. That's what synergy really is.
• 0:21
  Welcome to The Growth Project, a podcast brought to you by AMP. Lowe's doctor, Jim Brand, joined by doctor Bill Lauter today in studio talking about a great topic. Oh, yeah, a little March Madness. Yeah. One of the best times of the year, especially if you're into sports and you're into high level entertainment. Yeah. And it is just it is that for sure.
• 0:43
  You know, in like, in fairness to the fact that I know we have listeners some of whom love sports, some don't love sports, might not even know what March Madness is, which is someone who loves March Madness. But just as we get into this today, I want to just lay this out there. We are going to be talking about some, I think, some really interesting components of of March Madness.
• 1:05
  However, these are themes and principles that are really about high performing teams. And like, what are some of the drivers that help teams perform at their best, especially when it matters in like pressure situations? So if you hear this episode and you're not as much of a basketball person, no problem. Really want to just kind of challenge you to think about these principles of, okay, well, how does this apply to a team that maybe I'm a part of?
• 1:29
  Or how does this apply to my family system? I think it applies to so many different realms. So not just a basketball. Yeah, it's a great point, drew, because when we think about, you know, we're talking about maybe the first round upsets what what maybe contributes to that. But we think so many times in business you may feel at a disadvantage.
• 1:49
  You don't have the amount of resources you don't have, the amount of money you don't maybe don't even have the amount of talent. How can you create a competitive advantage? How can you learn to fight with what you have? But I think those are some of the lessons that we try to bridge the gap between sports and life and business, that if you really pay attention, those things travel well.
• 2:08
  Yeah. Right. No. Yeah. So that's what we're talking about is like, you know, the, the allure of March Madness, although all of, you know, all of it is, is awesome. The opening weekend is, I think, the most fun part. And I've always said, as someone who loves sports, the Thursday and Friday of the NCAA tournament are my two favorite days in sports.
• 2:28
  And then, yeah, and I think what's funny, we've been in business, you know, together 15, 16 years and every year like we're going to take off that if we never do, if we did what I remember years ago
• 2:42
  Yeah, we did that one time. No, we have not done it off. Yeah, with you completely on that. But those two days are just amazing. And that even kind of, like, sets up as we go into this discussion of and we're focused, of course, on particularly kind of like the psychology of all this, but like, what is the psychology of the Thursday and Friday of the NCAA tournament that makes it so fascinating?
• 3:04
  I think in America, especially if we love the underdog, like we love believing in the unbelievable, we love kind of watching something happen that that is not expected. And I think kind of seeing these teams come together, and upset the, great basketball, great the dynasties, the Blue Bloods. We love the underdog story. And I think that's what is so captivating is on any given day, a team can get upset.
• 3:34
  Yeah. And and kind of the purpose of the podcast today is explain. Okay. Why is that? What are some of the reasons that maybe these, you know, the old David and Goliath story? We know that David was an overwhelming favorite when you look at the research, but maybe what are what are some of the reasons these teams have a competitive advantage wise?
• 3:53
  Why are these upsets so predictable? I mean, I know the 116 is not, but each year that 12 or 5 match up is something you could bank on. Even the 215, the 314. Those are, so unexpected, that it kind of grips a nation because I think so many of us can relate to the underdog story.
• 4:11
  Yeah, yeah. And so that's the operative question day is like, why do so many teams overachieve? Like, how do they do that? And of course it's not everybody. But these examples like you're pointing out whether it's a 12 five or whatever it is, it's it's like, how are these teams doing this in defying these odds? And you just know that if you know, to just make up an example.
• 4:32
  Right. So if we've got the what's the 314. Yeah. Yeah. Those teams had met in November right. For a pre conference regular season game where it's a money game for the 14 seed. Yeah it's a home game on a random Tuesday night. It's almost a certainty that the the you know eventually the three seed is going to pound.
• 4:54
  Yeah. But why don't they pound them in March. Yeah. And and or true even kind of our first point here is maybe I'm getting ahead of ourself is if they play a best of five series or a best of seven series, if you see in the NBA, more times are not the best teams going to win out. But you never know what can happen when it's a one and done situation, right?
• 5:15
  So it's that as we think about kind of the model of the tournament is it's just it's one and done. Yeah. So you come into that game and you think about the psychology of this of and so let's use that specific matchup of like let's say it's three verse 14. And if you're unfamiliar with the way this brackets work.
• 5:29
  And that would be the third highest seed in that region is playing is the 14 seed. That 14 seeds is almost certainly a maybe a mid-major conference champion can be in fact, these are very infirm and paladins. Yeah, yeah a big win last night for Bob Richie in the Paladins for their projected I heard to be 14 seed.
• 5:50
  Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. But like that's a good example of it's a mid-major one. They're conference tournament but they're they're more than likely playing a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And so kind of the mindset, the psychology we want to break down. Why is it that that maybe sometimes there is some predictability in the chaos and the unexpected?
• 6:09
  So if you think about a matchup like that and the fact it's single elimination, it already begins to kind of formulate the picture of like, what is the psychology of that? And so if I'm the three seed in that match up, I literally know that millions and millions of millions of people are turning on and hoping I lose.
• 6:31
  Yeah,
• 6:31
  My fan base isn't hoping I lose, but everybody else is. And there's people gathered around their computers at their all and their offices. There's peoples and sports bars. And like, everyone is hoping I lose.
• 6:42
  And so you think about the weight of that because that's what we're excited about is the entertainment factor. So going into that game, you know, all of those things are true. And there's no doubt that that's affecting, the way you play. Oh yeah. Not only are they hoping I lose now as, the favorite, those expectations like you should not lose.
• 7:02
  And so you see these favorite teams go in there. They get off to a slow start. Their pressure of that one and done knowing if I don't play my best game, I'm not going to win. The world's pulling against me. So it can be not only very lonely, but the pressure to not lose the expectations. The burden of those expectations keep you from playing free, playing your game.
• 7:24
  And before you know it, the other team has a little bit of momentum, right? They got a little bit of momentum. And then I'll tell you this too, in that arena that oh yeah everyone. Who is it? Your fan base is rooting against you. Yeah. So every other team's fans are going to jump on the bandwagon with that 14 seed.
• 7:42
  And they just hope to see, a an upset. Yeah. And I think that one and done. Coach Might Noonan our soccer coach at Clemson always talks about that first game in the playoffs. Like if you get a first round bye you don't get those in the NCAA tournament in basketball. But if you get us a first round base in the ACC tournament or SEC tournament, the team that you're playing has already faced the one and done.
• 8:04
  They've they've already had, you know, think about the upsets. Furman would not be in the NCAA tournament if they didn't win last night. So they it's kind of a one. It's kind of a one and done. And so they've already faced the pressure. Hey this is a one and done. So they're more comfortable with that pressure versus the other teams.
• 8:22
  Probably known for a while. If you're a three seed, you're going to be in the NCAA tournament in December. Yeah. And whether you win or lose in your in your in your conference tournament, you know, you're you're not used to that pressure of a one and done right. Yeah. And that's the uniqueness of college basketball too is it's all about this tournament.
• 8:38
  Yeah. Right. And so they'll play the conference tournaments this weekend coming up at and all those things. And I mean who won the SEC tournament last year I have no idea who won the SEC tournament. I bet you have no idea. No. So like it's just we don't really think about those things the way we do at the NCAA.
• 8:52
  Okay. So just right out of the gates here, it's the single elimination and all the uniqueness of that and the burden of that and the heaviness of that for the higher seed. You know, let's also begin to unpack, what is the profile historically of these teams of, of overachieve? What's the next one. Yeah. So, so generally the, the teams that overachieve, they have a little bit more maturity.
• 9:14
  They have a little bit. Now it's going to be interesting as this looks out over time within an I o. And transfer portal. But there's a little bit of an older, more experienced player. The brains are a little bit more developed. They have a little bit more confidence in who they are. And they have a little higher connection and chemistry, I believe.
• 9:31
  Yeah, they're they're more, experienced. They've been in pressure situations more. Yes. And I think people don't always understand that is although you might have an 18 year old freshman who was a McDonald's All-American, blue chip, five star and all those things matter. We totally understand that. But it's amazing how when that team goes on the road and suddenly you're in, on a neutral court in Des Moines, Iowa, playing the first round in a tournament.
• 9:58
  Although those things are still helping you, it's amazing how much the tables kind of get equalized by the guy who is playing his fifth year of college basketball. Yeah, he's he's been through a lot. And and we know drew, one of the benefits we have of working in college sports, especially with the high level football and basketball, we know the life stories I know you love.
• 10:16
  Get to know the story behind the players at Georgia. And they've they've had to overcome a lot of adversity in life. But but if you're the five star McDonald's All-American, you're probably not face a lot of adversity on the court. You have not had to handle this kind of high pressure, high stakes with everybody's looking at you to carry the team through this.
• 10:37
  And so I think that's something that the older, more experienced players, they've they've been through some challenges. Maybe on the court they haven't achieved very nobody knows who they are sometimes. Yes. And and there's some freedom in that. When you look at these matchups. Yeah. You are not getting a dose of that on the evil summer circuit.
• 10:57
  Right. And although those are great players you're playing against all that. It is nothing like what people are feeling in the first round, except later. And for most of us. And whether that's individuals or teams or in businesses even drew, we talked about maturity, match talent, that that the maturity, the discipline, the mindset, the staying focus on the things you can't control, you know, kind of that kind of wins out in high pressure situations.
• 11:23
  Okay. So we have the we've talked about kind of the uniqueness of this single elimination format. We know that the profile of these teams that make that have sometimes over a team made a deep run and William and Mary's in the world, the butlers of the world, they've got experience on their side. They have mature players who are battle tested.
• 11:40
  They know what it's like for the bullets to be flying. And another one here is, they tend to have a really strong identity about the team. So what does that mean to me when I, when I think about team identity, that I'm willing to sacrifice myself to be a part of something greater, and that is one characteristic of a high performing team, no matter what part of life you find yourself in that, that you're willing to sacrifice yourself, that you've bought into the vision, that you understand, the role that you play on the team and you're grateful to be a part of the team.
• 12:14
  Yeah. Yes. Which means typically what does that translate to less drama on the team. Less internal problems, less turbulence which means coaches or coaching basketball. Yeah. Yeah. And they aren't having a coach. Yeah. So so these teams usually are not selfish right. And you can see the joy on the bench when somebody else does something really well.
• 12:33
  And these older more mature teams, it's not about an individual player. It's about the team. And so you think about what that creates in a, in a tournament environment. Because keep in mind too is it's not just what's happening at the on the court. Like you're spending a lot of time together. Yeah. I mean, your hope is you're flying in on a Tuesday.
• 12:51
  Maybe you probably on Wednesday, the week in the tournament or when the when the week it opens. And, I mean, some of these guys, if you make a deep run to the final Four, you're barely going back to campus full time in your day here, a day there. So you're spend a lot of time with these guys, the hotel, the restaurants, all that stuff.
• 13:08
  Yeah. And so we know that team chemistry kind of kind of creates, an added effect. In fact, are all companies be called synergy, right. That that one plus one equals three. And so you see that a lot of the time.
• 13:22
  What was John Wooden's great quote, the strength of the team as a team. And I think that's what you see in, in in some of these overachieving teams that there's something extra that is added like me being a part of this team brings out the best in me, but it also brings out the best in you.
• 13:37
  And I can't quite put my finger on it. That's what synergy really is.
• 13:41
  Yeah. And then one other final thing I would add to that is that these teams find a way, like they play their brand about. Yeah, exactly. You know, it doesn't matter when they're playing and they find a way to spite who the opponent is to play their brand of basketball, whether that's slow and methodical, when we control the clock or we turn a ball movement and we take very selective with our shot.
• 14:01
  Or maybe they're running a gun. And although that's less likely. Yeah, it's much harder for an underdog to beat a Kansas or a Duke in a running gun up tempo style. So they're probably not doing that. But you never know. Yeah. But with that, a team identity, as you said, the the element of understanding the variables that are present when they play their best.
• 14:19
  Think about a Jim Collins and the Hedgehog concept. What can we be the best in the world at? What are the keys to our success? What are we deeply passionate about? Part of a strong team identity is you commit to those things and you're going to play your game and we talked about playing that for 40 minutes or as long as it takes.
• 14:35
  That is such a strong competitive advantage in any aspect. Yeah. Yeah. So before we leave that one to like let's take a step back and remember not just for basketball fans here, but as you think about maybe what your team is in a corporate environment, whatever that is like we hope you have that. Yes. You know what your team's identity is.
• 14:55
  Do you know what your how you play to your strengths effectively? Just like these teams are, are overachieving to make deep runs into the tournament. Like what are you leaning on or relying on to to help your team? And that should really build your confidence. Like you can't play somebody else's game is like, okay, we know our our game.
• 15:15
  We know our strengths. We're going to leverage our strengths and hopefully that's good enough to get the job done. I know that's the model. Use the Georgia football as the model we used at Clemson is we're going to be the best that we can be doing what we do, and hopefully that's good enough to get the job done.
• 15:30
  okay, so we've got the identity. And then this is I'm getting into really the nitty gritty of the execution of it. The next point here is, defensive discipline. And I read actually a stat I think I'm doing this correctly. Since 1985, not a single team has reached the Final Four. That wasn't in the top 40 for overall team defense in the NCAA statistics.
• 15:52
  Oh, wow. So there's a little betting insight for your, NCAA bracket right there. Little nugget.
• 16:01
  But that is something to, that I read. And so yes. So we're talking about so you think about like, okay, well, what facilitates that. Like if you are a high caliber defensive team, what does it take to become that? Well, you know, I think about, there's an old coach named Jerry Fortner who coach at my high school, went on to coach at Clemson and did some different things.
• 16:23
  And he had the 3D basketball camp, and it was desire, discipline. But the number one thing was defense. And and why does that matter what defense travels. Yeah, exactly. You know, the think about the things that travel well around defense. It's commitment. It's effort. It's intensity. It's doing the little things you can't control. When that ball goes in the basket.
• 16:48
  And especially if you're playing in a new arena, new environment. But what defensive discipline? I love the way you frame that. Why does that win more often than not? Because that can travel well. You can have an especially in a one and done game. Oh gosh. Yes. You can have an off night. Yeah you will, but I think that's what frustrates coaches so much when people don't give that defensive effort.
• 17:09
  And that's what I love about Brad Brownell at Clemson. Our coaches Clemson grit. You know that's what he hangs his hat on. That grit can travel. And that wins more often than not. Yeah yeah I mean I think the key word and you said it when we're talking about defensive execution, it's an effort based thing. Yeah. I mean, do you need to be athletic and selfless?
• 17:29
  Sure helps if you are. But it's a conscious choice and decision for both individual effort. But then collective effort as well. I mean, you watch these best teams that they're going to. Yes. Tournament and like the way they play in such a connected way of, you know, help side. And I mean, that's it's team defense. There was a series last night in the Furman game, and I mean, the ball movement by East Tennessee was unbelievable.
• 17:54
  And Furman was there every time. I mean that that ball rotation was amazing in the commentator said what an unbelievable job a team defense. That's right. And so back to team identity and execution is hey this is how we win in. And part of that identity is knowing the key. Like we're going to win on the defensive end.
• 18:13
  And we're going to take pride in that. This reminds me of we just finished with Georgia football. A deep dive study in the Oklahoma City Thunder actually. And so the other the reigning NBA champs in last year when they won the finals, they led the NBA in overall team defense, deflections, charges taken and percentage of shots contested.
• 18:34
  I mean, those are effort based metrics. And to do that at that level, you know, like what's the what's the knock on the NBA? They don't play defense. A lot of prima donnas a lot of superstars. You know, when you think about what really wins, that's an unbelievable statistic I forget. Yeah. Number one the NBA and all that.
• 18:51
  Yeah. So and that's what worked I mean you'll see that play out here real soon beginning next Thursday okay. So then what's our next one numbers. Well I think kind of as we're building in the nitty gritty, one of the reasons these Cinderella teams perform really well and overachieve is sometimes they create just some matchup problems that that especially think about your conference tournament with some of the blue bloods like you see people maybe twice a year.
• 19:16
  You see them every year. You know the coach, you know the pattern. You know the game that he plays. He was a great, was it Providence or Princeton that ran the Princeton offense? I can't think of the coach that each year he. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. That that that offensive system was, was different than what anybody else understood it.
• 19:36
  Yeah. And so that creates a matchup problem, especially if maybe you have 2 or 3 days to, to figure it out. Yeah. And that's that can kind of couple things together here related to the matchup issues is quality of coaching and leadership. Yeah. And so your your ability to identify and then exploit match ups is really only as good as the leadership and coaching that you have available to you.
• 20:00
  So as these coaches ability as you said to like break down film quickly, scheme the right way and then just demand the the execution from the players about, hey, we're going to, we're going to do what we said we're going to do. And sometimes, I mean, I'm making a generalization here that when you got talent, you know, I think of the great line that that you talked about yourself you made with USA basketball.
• 20:23
  Winning clouded our thinking. And so a lot of times that winning can overlook, if you're a higher level seed, you can kind of take for granted some of the things that contribute to your success. And you kind of let the winning cloud you're thinking, let the talent cloud your thinking, and you don't do as much coaching on X's and O's.
• 20:39
  Right. Where maybe these teams that have not performed as well, they gotta fight with everything they have and find every way to create a competitive advantage. Yeah. And I mean, let's face it, two, we think about these matchup problems and the uniqueness of what might get thrown against the higher seed. College basketball has changed tremendously. Yeah. If you turn a game on especially kind of what we would consider to be kind of the highest tier conferences, the the SEC, the SEC is in the world, the brand of basketball that's being played.
• 21:09
  A lot of this is just like, hey, go someone set a ball screen and just, like, figure it out. Yeah. You know, everybody get out of his way and spread out. And so suddenly, you know the tournament and people are defending you in ways you haven't seen all year. You might not be able to get by with that.
• 21:23
  And you can't just rely on the fact that we have better athletes will win. Yeah. Especially if the offense if for some reason the ball and going in the basket, you're playing a new and arena, new environment, all the pressure that's building on you. And then the a little bit of hope goes a long way. And so if you don't get out the blocks well, it creates not only doubt in your mind, but it creates confidence in the other team's mind.
• 21:42
  Right. The team who sees a few shots go in gets real happy. Yeah. And the team that doesn't begins to think twice about, well, I don't know. Should I not let this one go? Let me let me add a disclaimer, because we are in the South, I know the Big Ten and big 12. They're playing pretty good basketball too.
• 22:01
  I know we kind of get a sec, sec. SEC. That one would offend anybody. Up, up in different regions. I do have some some friends.
• 22:11
  Might be saying this and
• 22:13
  And as we just mentioned, you start the game off and you start pressing and you start building a little bit confidence and we talk about self-efficacy and okay, you get the first four minute, you know, 60 minute timeout and you're you're tired or you got the lead.
• 22:27
  You start thinking, hey, we we're okay, we got this, we can do this and that little bit of doubt and we've seen it so many times in different sports goes against the other team. And now they start pressing and you see that that kind of switch. And then as you mentioned drew what makes March Madness so great?
• 22:45
  The momentum of the arena, the energy of the arena, the pulse of the year, everything changes
• 22:51
  the whole time. Yeah. You're the underdog. Team is sitting there thinking, hey, you know, we're about to stamp our, our opportunity on to I'm going to be one shining moment right? Say, I record it and I wake up. I watch it the next day.
• 23:07
  Yeah. But and then you think about how you string these things together from a momentum standpoint is we'll go back to the example we've been focused on this entire time. If the 14 seed shows up and beats the three seed, let's imagine that happens as soon as you're on the other side of that game. Psychologically, why can't you beat anybody else on the field?
• 23:26
  Yeah, because the reality is what the way these teams are going to get seeded, whoever the three seed is, they could have easily been a two seed. Yeah. A subjectivity in people's opinions and late seeded losses in this type of stuff. There isn't that big of a difference between 1 and 2 and three. Yeah. So they know now psychologically.
• 23:43
  Well gosh I mean we just knocked off I don't even three you name it. Yeah I went up North Carolina. We just beat North Carolina. Why can't we beat it. Why can't we beat Alabama. Why can't we beat that's why. That's self-efficacy versus self-esteem is so important where the favorite is maybe playing because of who they think they are, the team that really believes in who they are and what they've done.
• 24:04
  And they look at the evidence to support that. They start playing with that confidence. I think the other piece that we even talk about in this situation, you know, one of those old proverbs I like, I read an 11 Rings by Phil Knight is the best warrior dies before he goes to battle. And so a lot of times when you aren't expected to win, that, that you accept, hey, we may get beat.
• 24:28
  You play to win. Yeah. Versus the team that is scared to lose. They play not to lose. And there's a huge difference in that mindset. Hugely. Absolutely I mean because these the lower seed match ups throughout the tournament have if anybody's got full freedom and permission to play to win. Yes. Yeah. There's nothing to lose. Yeah. You know if the 14 seed loses they were supposed to lose.
• 24:51
  Yeah. And if the 13 seed has got everything to lose and very little again. Yeah. And I think that's that's the pressure. That's the biggest point here when we think about the confidence and momentum and belief that it takes, that playing to win versus playing not to lose.
• 25:06
  Okay. So there's our framework, you know, and the question of like, how do these teams over achieve?
• 25:12
  And that's to me, that's the most fun part about the whole tournament is, you know, before it begins, you know, it's going to happen. Yeah. You just don't know who it's going to be. And then as it begins to take shape and play out, it's just so much fun to kind of be, see and be a part of it.
• 25:27
  As we kind of wrap up this conversation, what about kind of final reflections from you on on like kind of the, the nuts and bolts of it or, or how, how we can understand it. To me, this is so much fun to talk about because it's what we spend our lives doing, right? You know how to I mean, even just a I don't know about your athletic career, but for mine was okay.
• 25:46
  I had to create a competitive advantage because I want the biggest, I want the tallest. I wasn't the strongest, I won the fastest. And so it's fun to kind of see the research kind of support. Hey, why do some teams outperform? And I think these are lessons that we can apply in our life to give us a competitive advantage.
• 26:03
  We talked about living off the land. We talked about fighting with what you have. You talked about believing in yourself and the people you surround yourself with. Hey, what are the keys to your success? How do you play to win instead of playing not to lose? We know the research suggests you're going to regret what you didn't do instead of what you did.
• 26:18
  And so showing up and being proud of how you compete. So I love kind of how we believe strongly these mental skills to help you achieve in sport. They help you achieve in business and they help you achieve in life. And so I'm even thinking for our company, okay, what creates a competitive advantage for us? What is our plan to win?
• 26:37
  How do we stay focused on the things we know to be true? What is our strategy? How do we execute? And I hope other people are taking these same ideas and putting them into practice in their life. Yeah, yeah, I'm into all that. And I think, you know, for me just is I think about the tournament. There's a phrase we've used a bunch in football over the years of brands don't win football games.
• 26:57
  Players. Yeah. And if that's that is on full display. Yeah, a great line. You know, it's not about the brand, it's about the players. And so to see people show up and and these guys, these become household names. Like who is that? Of course I say that and I can remember his name, but there was a guy who made like ten threes last year against Kentucky.
• 27:17
  He was from. Oh yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Last name. I think it started with the W. But like there is these people that we've never heard of and then for these matter of weeks, they're just like, you know we know who these guys are. Yeah. I mean it's just a blast to see it come together. I mean, think about Bryce Drew.
• 27:34
  I mean, how many years ago did he hit that? I know his family's been in coaching, but, I mean, I can see that moment in my mind for Valpo in this, I don't know, it's probably 25. I don't know how long it's been. Yeah. Well, I mean, the Kentucky fans will hate this. And, but I can now remember I got I got two degrees from Kentucky.
• 27:50
  Yeah. What? Yeah, I can remember where I was standing when Christian later hit that shot. Yeah. I was at my friend's house, and I remember the detail of an eye level detail, so I was I was driving to the beat for spring break in high school, when I pulled over in the parking lot at Coastal Carolina to listen to Lightner hit that shot.
• 28:09
  And yeah, yeah, that's what's so great about this is whether you're a basketball fan or not. I think the way that our culture, it's just infused in our culture, the with the, with sports are when it comes into their turn. That's a good time. Yeah. And to me, when I think about that, the thing I guess I'll close with in our own life, a little bit of hope goes a long way.
• 28:28
  And, and so there's a little bit of doubt and, and when you don't have the resources and you don't have maybe the history of success that other people do, it's easy to be defeated and it's easy to be discouraged. And I think what gives us hope while watching the March Madness. And one of the ways to like, if they can do it, I can do it.
• 28:48
  Yeah. And I hope that's a lesson we can all take as we watch it this year. All right, so this is maybe the obvious part, but next Thursday, you know, despite what your, your company or your boss might say, you know, games on, it's never been easier to watch these things or at least keep up, you know, follow the scoreboard.
• 29:07
  So enjoy it. Yeah. And and as always, we appreciate your support. We appreciate your engagement. Follow us. Like us on the channels if you don't mind. That helps us hit a message that's relevant for you. And, please reach out. We always love when you ask questions, when you want more information, and we want to provide content that's relevant to help you be better and pursue bettering your life.
• 29:26
  Thank you so much.