Transcript

Be Creative! · UK Column Radio

0:30
Speaker 1: My name is Jim. This is Germ Warfare, the Battle
0:33
Speaker 1: of ideas. I enjoyed my chat with you, Charles last
0:38
Speaker 1: week so much about creativity, and I know you enjoyed
0:40
Speaker 1: it too. I want to continue that theme. There was
0:42
Speaker 1: a beautiful comment actually in the UK column forums about
0:46
Speaker 1: the importance of chatting about creativity because it's a it's
0:49
Speaker 1: a fairly large topic. Uh. And and I think it's
0:54
Speaker 1: something besides the fact that it's uplifting, it's also part
0:58
Speaker 1: of the essence of being human. It's right at the
1:01
Speaker 1: foundation of who we are, and it gets lost in
1:05
Speaker 1: all the noise. And when we talk about creativity, it's
1:07
Speaker 1: not just about you know, music or entertainment or arts
1:11
Speaker 1: or anything. It's hobbies, it's it's it's it's also finding
1:14
Speaker 1: boredom because in that boredom we become creative.
1:19
Speaker 2: Uh.
1:19
Speaker 1: And it's that cycle that that that gets completely suppressed
1:23
Speaker 1: in what do you call it, uh, In in society
1:29
Speaker 1: where they keep like distraction culture, where they just constantly
1:32
Speaker 1: keep you distracted with everything scrolling, and and the more
1:35
Speaker 1: they keep you on your device and constantly wired, the
1:39
Speaker 1: less creative you can be. And the World Economic Forum
1:43
Speaker 1: itself has actually said that it wants people to be
1:45
Speaker 1: constantly wired. I mean, that's that's ultimately part of a
1:49
Speaker 1: transhumanist agenda. So I want to just chat more about
1:54
Speaker 1: the importance of creativity. And I mean an example, MICUs
1:59
Speaker 1: as you working with watches, it's that, it's.
2:05
Speaker 3: It's when music, it's growing, it's whatever whatever way that
2:10
Speaker 3: any of us can find to do something, create something
2:14
Speaker 3: that didn't exist before. And I think some of the
2:22
Speaker 3: most interesting acts of resistance that I've seen over the
2:27
Speaker 3: last twenty years have been as a result of doing
2:31
Speaker 3: something absolutely committive and that that that that becomes an
2:39
Speaker 3: extremely positive experience. I mean, you know, just just just
2:43
Speaker 3: to take one really silly example, it wasn't still it's
2:46
Speaker 3: not silly in the sense of it in the sense
2:50
Speaker 3: that have an outcome, because it absoutely did have an outcome.
2:53
Speaker 3: But but but just the whenever we were at the column,
2:58
Speaker 3: whenever we were attacked by authority for television band back
3:03
Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen, the way we went about dealing with
3:06
Speaker 3: that was quite creative. It was also quite entertaining for people,
3:11
Speaker 3: and it absolutely motivated people to contack that organization. And
3:16
Speaker 3: that organization did exists for very much longer. So so
3:20
Speaker 3: you know this is I think the key thing is
3:25
Speaker 3: to do something other than what is expected anyways.
3:31
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not Charles. You enjoyed that chat very
3:33
Speaker 1: very much.
3:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did, hugely, And I think that's been a
3:39
Speaker 4: really good response to it. I think it's also it
3:41
Speaker 4: must be said that whilst the response has been out
3:46
Speaker 4: uniformly positive, it is just well, I don't think we
3:51
Speaker 4: can regard it as coincidental that by viewing statistics, it
3:58
Speaker 4: scores lower than if we'd been talking about something that
4:01
Speaker 4: was fundamentally negative subject. And I do think that is
4:06
Speaker 4: something that we do need to address or at least
4:10
Speaker 4: make reference to the fact. Well, of course we've talked
4:13
Speaker 4: about is a lot before the Whether you describe it
4:16
Speaker 4: as doom scrolling or whatever, the fact is that whichever
4:21
Speaker 4: side of the fence people perceive themselves to be on,
4:25
Speaker 4: they are more drawn to what looks like a bad
4:29
Speaker 4: news story than they are to one that might be
4:33
Speaker 4: characterized as a good news story.
4:34
Speaker 5: And I think the.
4:37
Speaker 4: Sort of the direction of our discussion last week was
4:40
Speaker 4: absolutely very positive. And I think all the things that
4:43
Speaker 4: we see around us that are sort of containing or
4:50
Speaker 4: restricting creativity are in themselves acting as drivers for creativity
4:58
Speaker 4: as a reaction against it, and I think a lot
5:00
Speaker 4: of people absolutely recognize that. So I feel it was
5:05
Speaker 4: really enjoyable. It was nice to have the chance to
5:08
Speaker 4: talk about something different but also something that I think
5:10
Speaker 4: is positive and exactly like Mike says, it's totally intertwined
5:15
Speaker 4: with resistance. I can't remember whether I did articulate that
5:19
Speaker 4: last week or not. I think I did, and if
5:21
Speaker 4: I didn't, then what I'd meant to say was to
5:26
Speaker 4: use creativity as that particular quality that I'd expected to
5:31
Speaker 4: see from Brits, in particular in the face of well,
5:36
Speaker 4: actually it was firstly the apparent decision to leave the
5:41
Speaker 4: European Union and therefore the opportunities that present themselves or
5:46
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter what it is, you know, whether society
5:49
Speaker 4: is going to be shut down for a pretend illness,
5:54
Speaker 4: let's say, or people are going to be told that
5:56
Speaker 4: they have to do this in order to continue their life.
6:02
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think that the creativity in the wider sense.
6:06
Speaker 4: In fact, no, I definitely did talk about that. Yeah,
6:08
Speaker 4: but it is very important. I should just take this
6:11
Speaker 4: opportunity before it slips in my mind to qualify some
6:16
Speaker 4: of what I was saying last week, because there was
6:18
Speaker 4: a very good comment made in the thread on the
6:21
Speaker 4: UK column Members forum about the remarks I'd made. I mean,
6:26
Speaker 4: it's an open goal, it's an easy one to criticize.
6:29
Speaker 4: I spoke about Tracy Emman's bed, which you know, sort
6:33
Speaker 4: of the hit the headlines and was a big you know,
6:36
Speaker 4: it's a big show made about it. But fundamentally, for
6:39
Speaker 4: many people it changed the It changed the way in
6:41
Speaker 4: which they thought they were supposed to think about art.
6:43
Speaker 4: And the point made, not exactly as a counter to that,
6:47
Speaker 4: but as a qualification, was that the other tragedy about
6:52
Speaker 4: art like that is that it's it is also stripping
6:56
Speaker 4: away the idea that people would have some sort of
7:01
Speaker 4: a grounding in the particular culture it is that they're
7:04
Speaker 4: observing and critiquing. In other words, it's a great shame
7:09
Speaker 4: that we don't live in society anymore where people can
7:11
Speaker 4: look at art and they do actually understand when I'm
7:15
Speaker 4: talking about genuine art here, and they do understand what
7:18
Speaker 4: such and arch a motif or a trick or a
7:22
Speaker 4: reference actually is. And that again is a part of
7:28
Speaker 4: it that the general and you know, enormous dumbing down
7:34
Speaker 4: of everything and everyone means now, presumably as an artist,
7:39
Speaker 4: you're limited in terms of what you can even express
7:41
Speaker 4: because who on earth is going to understand it? So
7:44
Speaker 4: I'm not talking about sophisticating beyond a level which might
7:48
Speaker 4: be considered reasonable. But if you go back, because again
7:51
Speaker 4: the point I made was about, say, a lot of
7:54
Speaker 4: Renaissance art was designed to a tell a story, but
7:58
Speaker 4: be you could say in some senses is propaganda because
8:01
Speaker 4: obviously where was it being funded. But the point is
8:04
Speaker 4: that there was absolute confidence in the fact that the
8:07
Speaker 4: message was going to be received because people would understand
8:10
Speaker 4: the various references that were being made in the art.
8:13
Speaker 4: Now I don't think that's the case anymore, and that
8:15
Speaker 4: was something that we didn't talk about last week. So
8:18
Speaker 4: in stripping away people's education, you could say the same
8:21
Speaker 4: across the board, literature would be the same, but people
8:23
Speaker 4: are not even able to understand the references that are
8:27
Speaker 4: put right under their noses.
8:28
Speaker 5: That's again an indictment.
8:31
Speaker 1: So yes, the comment that I was referring to by Pibi,
8:35
Speaker 1: thank you for starting this discussion. I hope you get
8:37
Speaker 1: condom will focus on art and culture as an ongoing
8:39
Speaker 1: regular feature. We are told that politics is downstream from culture,
8:42
Speaker 1: so it couldn't be more important. I Michael Jones on
8:45
Speaker 1: my show last week said that everything's downstream from culture,
8:49
Speaker 1: and he's right. I mean, if you think about it, right,
8:51
Speaker 1: if you travel to another country, one of the first
8:54
Speaker 1: things you want to do is see how beautiful it
8:58
Speaker 1: is in its own way. You want to look the architecture,
9:00
Speaker 1: you want to go to the museums. You don't want
9:04
Speaker 1: to find out about its political history when you're there.
9:08
Speaker 1: You want to find that attachment to the novel, you know,
9:12
Speaker 1: the new, the the interesting, what makes it unique, what
9:16
Speaker 1: makes it its own thing. And of course with uniformity
9:20
Speaker 1: like we see, you know in many sort of Russian
9:23
Speaker 1: cities or even Chinese cities, you see a lot of
9:26
Speaker 1: the same thing. And I find that very, very depressing,
9:30
Speaker 1: and I prefer, I mean, I honestly prefer, you know,
9:33
Speaker 1: European architecture. I find it absolutely beautiful and it does
9:36
Speaker 1: something to you. It makes you feel like this meaning
9:39
Speaker 1: and purpose. Again.
9:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think when we go to these places,
9:47
Speaker 3: if we go to a museum or we go to
9:49
Speaker 3: somewhere that has massive cultural heritage, we're going there as consumers.
9:55
Speaker 3: And while there's something to be found in that which is,
10:01
Speaker 3: which may be inspirational, it helps us get to make
10:05
Speaker 3: connections with our roots or whatever it happens to be,
10:08
Speaker 3: it's still an act of consumption. And of course what
10:13
Speaker 3: has happened in the smartphone era is that we have
10:17
Speaker 3: become consumers exclusively. There's there's a few people that are
10:22
Speaker 3: producing stuff, most of it's dross, but but we are
10:27
Speaker 3: generally consumers. And of course, if we're consuming something which
10:32
Speaker 3: is high culture or is culture cultural, whether it's music
10:37
Speaker 3: or art or architecture, we should be using that as
10:43
Speaker 3: inspiration and then we should be developing our own creative
10:49
Speaker 3: skills to do something with that. And you know that
10:54
Speaker 3: we all have different capabilities and for the majority of us,
11:01
Speaker 3: and I absolutely include myself in this with with respect
11:03
Speaker 3: to music, for example, the majority of what we might
11:06
Speaker 3: produce is not going to be the highest standard, let's say,
11:10
Speaker 3: but nonetheless it's it is probably going to be the
11:14
Speaker 3: best that we can do. And but there's something that
11:17
Speaker 3: we gain from that act of producing something. And yes,
11:23
Speaker 3: we take inspiration from others, but we shouldn't just be
11:26
Speaker 3: We shouldn't just be consumers. That's part of the problem
11:30
Speaker 3: that we have at the moment.
11:31
Speaker 2: And actually.
11:34
Speaker 3: The truth is that that that that productive act, that
11:39
Speaker 3: creative act, is in and of itself, an act of resistance.
11:43
Speaker 3: And so we should be doing much more of that.
11:46
Speaker 1: But how do you break away from the consumer drive?
11:54
Speaker 3: You know, when I was growing up, Charles maybe might
11:59
Speaker 3: be old enough to remember this, but probably not. But
12:02
Speaker 3: when I was growing up, there was an artist on
12:05
Speaker 3: the BBC called Tony Hart and and his programs were
12:09
Speaker 3: great for kids.
12:10
Speaker 2: They were they were.
12:13
Speaker 3: Really about trying to encourage kids to draw on the
12:17
Speaker 3: paint and produce art. But before his individual programs were on,
12:23
Speaker 3: there was something else on called Vision on on the BBC.
12:28
Speaker 3: And and I can't remember the strap line specifically, with
12:32
Speaker 3: something along the lines of switch off your television and
12:35
Speaker 3: go and do something less boring instead. And this is
12:39
Speaker 3: this is, this is basically what we've got to relearn
12:41
Speaker 3: is just throw the smartphone in the corner, smash it
12:45
Speaker 3: off a wall, do something, just to do something that
12:48
Speaker 3: to take that away from you, that influence and and
12:52
Speaker 3: and we gotta, we gotta, it doesn't matter what it is.
12:57
Speaker 3: Take up knitting, it doesn't matter. Do something that that
13:00
Speaker 3: ends up with something that's a thing in front of
13:03
Speaker 3: us at the end of the day. Whether that's a
13:05
Speaker 3: musical recording or a picture or a cardigan, who cares,
13:09
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter, as long as it's something that has
13:11
Speaker 3: come from ourselves, that that becomes a productive act, and
13:14
Speaker 3: that is, as I say, an act of resistance.
13:18
Speaker 1: I mean clash Strap himself said in his book The
13:22
Speaker 1: Great Reset or the Fourth I forget what it's called now,
13:24
Speaker 1: about the Fourth Industrial Revolution. You said that he would
13:28
Speaker 1: love to render human labor obsolete. And if you're render
13:31
Speaker 1: human labor obsolete, you're also rendering creative labor obsolete, which
13:37
Speaker 1: means that you're creating zombies, and zombies are not creative.
13:44
Speaker 2: It's interesting.
13:45
Speaker 3: There's a there's a conversation going on amongst the AI
13:49
Speaker 3: crowd at the moment about you know, the fact that
13:52
Speaker 3: AI is destroying labor jobs and you know, what are
13:58
Speaker 3: people going to do? And so this whole issue of
14:00
Speaker 3: universal basic income becomes a hot topic again. And I
14:05
Speaker 3: have to admit I am somewhat conflicted on the whole
14:09
Speaker 3: UBI thing because on one hand, I'm thinking, well, yeah, okay,
14:12
Speaker 3: in the current situation, what's going to happen. UBI is
14:16
Speaker 3: going to be a thing and people are you know,
14:18
Speaker 3: we've said this before. The whole lockdown thing was kind
14:22
Speaker 3: of a pilot for this, where people were being given
14:24
Speaker 3: free money and lots of people use that to just
14:29
Speaker 3: sit in front of a television screen and watch Netflix.
14:32
Speaker 3: And Netflix did very and others did very, very well
14:35
Speaker 3: during that period. But there is there, there is potentially
14:41
Speaker 3: an opportunity there if if people don't have to you know,
14:46
Speaker 3: consider how am I going to earn a basic living?
14:51
Speaker 3: That some people would then use that opportunity to produce
14:54
Speaker 3: something truly beautiful and and so, you know, while I
14:58
Speaker 3: recognize that UBI with that question a sort of panoptic
15:04
Speaker 3: and CBDC digital ID related policy, and in principle, as
15:12
Speaker 3: as it's being expressed at the moment, it's just something
15:14
Speaker 3: that should be.
15:17
Speaker 2: Opposed. I can see how. I can see how.
15:21
Speaker 3: If it was done in the right way, with the
15:23
Speaker 3: right motivations, it could be something which would be liberating
15:30
Speaker 3: for people. Let's put it that way. I realized that
15:32
Speaker 3: the intention is not to do that in this case,
15:34
Speaker 3: but you know, as we're talking, if we're talking principles,
15:39
Speaker 3: it might be something worth considering. But I wondered those
15:45
Speaker 3: I'm going to get accused now of being you know,
15:48
Speaker 3: a pro the agenda.
15:51
Speaker 1: Well, if you're going to get accused of being protgendered,
15:53
Speaker 1: let's also just quickly drop in how great China is.
15:57
Speaker 1: No for no reason, whatsaver? That's not a creative there,
16:02
Speaker 1: But you know, I mean UK column itself is actually
16:05
Speaker 1: an example of creativity. It's a response in many ways
16:09
Speaker 1: to the propaganda, the mainstream established narratives, and it is
16:18
Speaker 1: a result of people wanting to find the truth you know,
16:24
Speaker 1: sive through the nonsense. Uh And I mean creativity takes
16:29
Speaker 1: on many many forms, but it is ultimately about passion
16:37
Speaker 1: and drive, and those are the things that are constantly
16:40
Speaker 1: under attack. You know, when you become a useless eater,
16:44
Speaker 1: then you lose the ability to even think critically.
16:53
Speaker 5: Shall I step in?
16:55
Speaker 2: Yes? Right?
16:56
Speaker 5: Good?
16:57
Speaker 4: Okay, Yes, absolutely, I think that's I think that is
17:01
Speaker 4: most certainly the case, and especially when you trace it
17:04
Speaker 4: back in fact, you know, as if anyone needs reminding,
17:07
Speaker 4: UK Column is twenty years old this year, twenty twenty six,
17:11
Speaker 4: and when Bryan started up on his own it was
17:15
Speaker 4: with a physical piece of paper. Of course, twenty years
17:17
Speaker 4: later we are going back into physical pieces of paper
17:20
Speaker 4: with the excellent quarterly column magazine, which if you haven't
17:24
Speaker 4: got a copy of, please.
17:25
Speaker 5: Do plug ended.
17:28
Speaker 4: But that was creative because not only was he producing
17:32
Speaker 4: something physical, but he was also doing so in such
17:35
Speaker 4: a way as to activate the minds of the people
17:41
Speaker 4: that were or should have been concerned by what it
17:43
Speaker 4: was he was writing. And this was going back to
17:45
Speaker 4: Devenport in Plymouth at that point, where he really was
17:51
Speaker 4: exposing corruption that did affect all those people. And so
17:55
Speaker 4: the way in which he went about that and what evolved,
17:59
Speaker 4: which courses bit that Mike can talk about, was absolutely creative,
18:02
Speaker 4: and I think it has completely remained creative. And part
18:06
Speaker 4: of the creativity, which I think it's still lost on
18:11
Speaker 4: some people, is that we in many respects we look
18:17
Speaker 4: like or can look like, and where the news is concerned,
18:21
Speaker 4: we can look like a news program that could be
18:24
Speaker 4: on a mainstream channel. And this has been the point
18:27
Speaker 4: throughout Brian's point, Mike's point is that that is absolutely deliberate.
18:33
Speaker 4: But if people really do listen and really do watch,
18:38
Speaker 4: they see that something very different is being done. And
18:41
Speaker 4: that's why I think it's been I would say almost
18:45
Speaker 4: amusing to see people so confound it by not being
18:48
Speaker 4: able to work out whether UK column is supposedly on
18:53
Speaker 4: the left or on the right, and of course the
18:56
Speaker 4: answer is neither, because the way in which were dealing
19:01
Speaker 4: with absolutely everything is I would say creative, be a
19:05
Speaker 4: bit cavel using, creative in the sense I don't mean
19:07
Speaker 4: that we're making stuff up, but the appreciation of the
19:12
Speaker 4: analysis of the commentary on whatever it is that's out there,
19:16
Speaker 4: I think is absolutely creative, as is the way in
19:19
Speaker 4: which we are able to look at something and certainly
19:24
Speaker 4: not take it at face value, but absolutely be able
19:26
Speaker 4: to point to not just where it's come from and
19:29
Speaker 4: what it really means, but also where it is intended
19:32
Speaker 4: to go to. And these are the bits that other
19:36
Speaker 4: news organizations will never do for a whole host of
19:39
Speaker 4: reasons which we don't necessarily need to cover now, But
19:41
Speaker 4: that is that absolutely is creativity. Now, just to go
19:46
Speaker 4: back to a couple of things, I've just been jotting
19:48
Speaker 4: down a few notes talking about what creative, what creativity
19:55
Speaker 4: actually is, what it means, and sort of how it's challenged.
19:59
Speaker 4: I know we've made point before might already referred to AI,
20:03
Speaker 4: but I think the massive danger of AI. We did
20:05
Speaker 4: talk about this a little bit last week, is that
20:08
Speaker 4: what it convinces people is that they are creating something,
20:12
Speaker 4: because you can put stuff into the machine and it
20:15
Speaker 4: will create something. And in fact, what is happening is
20:19
Speaker 4: that it's simply the creation of an illusion of the
20:24
Speaker 4: human doing something, and that is not the case. And
20:26
Speaker 4: it demonstrates the enormous danger of believing the sources of
20:31
Speaker 4: things that come out of machines. And the other very
20:35
Speaker 4: obvious example I would give of that is modeling, you know,
20:38
Speaker 4: computer modeling. The fact that during the year twenty twenty
20:43
Speaker 4: and for probably two or three years afterwards, people actually
20:47
Speaker 4: believed what they saw on these government dashboards that number
20:51
Speaker 4: of people are supposedly in that category, which means that
20:55
Speaker 4: from a figure which how on earth has that even
20:59
Speaker 4: been come by in the first place. You know, we
21:01
Speaker 4: are extrapolating X, Y, and z, and there were so
21:05
Speaker 4: many hurdles left in one jump in order that people
21:10
Speaker 4: do just simply believe it. And I think that is
21:13
Speaker 4: that is the sort of other and very much nefarious
21:18
Speaker 4: end or use of something that is a creation of sorts,
21:23
Speaker 4: but it's not certainly in or a human creation. The
21:26
Speaker 4: human has intent, and that is then magnified, multiplied whatever
21:32
Speaker 4: you say by the modeling or by the artificial intelligence.
21:35
Speaker 4: I think that's an allusion. The next bit I was
21:37
Speaker 4: going to say, And to those who are either listening
21:42
Speaker 4: or watching, I hope you're sitting down because I am
21:45
Speaker 4: old enough to remember Tony Hart and the program that
21:50
Speaker 4: I was. I think you were talking about that. I
21:52
Speaker 4: knew it as why don't you when you say vision on?
21:56
Speaker 4: I think it was called why don't you?
21:57
Speaker 2: You're absolutely correct, yea completely wrong.
22:00
Speaker 5: Yes, and but yeah, thank you.
22:03
Speaker 4: But but wasn't it wasn't it in fact broadcast from
22:07
Speaker 4: northern Ireland?
22:10
Speaker 5: Is that right? Or my confusing? I don't remember it
22:12
Speaker 5: very well.
22:13
Speaker 3: But anyway, no, I think they give my series had
22:15
Speaker 3: different I think they went around the country on that.
22:18
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, but yes, anyway, it was you know, Actually
22:21
Speaker 4: I always thought it was slightly paradoxical because of course
22:23
Speaker 4: the I think the part of the line was why
22:25
Speaker 4: don't you switch off your television set and go and
22:28
Speaker 4: do something else? And I thought that one of us, Yeah,
22:30
Speaker 4: it's kind of odd line or a television program, But
22:33
Speaker 4: I suppose they should have meant you know at the
22:35
Speaker 4: end of the program, but yes, Tony Hart. There's there's
22:37
Speaker 4: more to say on Tony Hart, because not only did
22:41
Speaker 4: he absolutely stimulate and celebrate all the sorts of areas
22:46
Speaker 4: of creativity that particularly young people should be interested in.
22:49
Speaker 4: And he was unbelievably interesting, engaging, amusing and brilliant. But
22:56
Speaker 4: and I if anybody knows better, then please do correc
23:00
Speaker 4: But as I understand it, the BBC destroyed the entire
23:05
Speaker 4: archive of his work on the grounds that they didn't
23:09
Speaker 4: have enough space. So this was in the day when
23:11
Speaker 4: everything was recorded to I don't know whether it's accurately
23:16
Speaker 4: described as videotape, but basically when it took up physical space,
23:21
Speaker 4: and they supposedly got to a point where, well, we
23:26
Speaker 4: can't store any more stuff, so we're going to have
23:28
Speaker 4: to start destroying things. And all of Tony Hart's works
23:32
Speaker 4: he had there were several I can't remember the names
23:34
Speaker 4: of them, but I know anyway, there were several series
23:37
Speaker 4: of his that had run on television for absolute years
23:41
Speaker 4: and rather than finding a way to either put them
23:43
Speaker 4: onto another a different medium that didn't take up so
23:44
Speaker 4: much space, or simply renting more space because your BBC,
23:49
Speaker 4: they destroyed them. Now absolutely, I would stand corrected if
23:53
Speaker 4: somebody knows better, But that is my understanding of the situation.
23:57
Speaker 4: Now that in itself tells an extraordinary story, I would say.
24:03
Speaker 4: And then the only other thing was just to make
24:05
Speaker 4: the distinction in terms of acts of resistance between say,
24:10
Speaker 4: painting or sculpting something and knitting a jumper. And I'm
24:16
Speaker 4: not saying that one isn't connected with the other, but
24:19
Speaker 4: in actual fact, what the state has an enormous problem
24:22
Speaker 4: with is people who can subsist or create things that
24:28
Speaker 4: mean they don't have to go out and consume because
24:31
Speaker 4: and I'm sorry to say this to artists because I
24:33
Speaker 4: don't I'm not saying that we should survive without them,
24:37
Speaker 4: but of course, the fact of it is that you
24:40
Speaker 4: can survive without sculptures or paintings on your wall, whereas
24:45
Speaker 4: when it gets cold you do need warmer clothing in
24:49
Speaker 4: most cases, and to be able to have those sorts
24:52
Speaker 4: of practical skills to do that. But doesn't matter what
24:54
Speaker 4: it is, whether you're doing that, whether you're fixing your
24:56
Speaker 4: own you know, plumbing or heating or building something. But
25:00
Speaker 4: those those types of skills in particular have just absolutely
25:07
Speaker 4: dropped off a cliff, and that is I think a
25:10
Speaker 4: serious problem. There's all this chat about sort of whole
25:14
Speaker 4: society approach to impending war and you know, shocks to
25:17
Speaker 4: the system, and it's all the language used is so glib,
25:20
Speaker 4: as though are well, you know, it's not really going
25:21
Speaker 4: to happen, and it's all it's sort of about food.
25:23
Speaker 4: But we've kind of got it in hand. When you
25:26
Speaker 4: look at what people are or are not able to
25:29
Speaker 4: do below a certain age, I think it is it
25:32
Speaker 4: is absolutely shocking, and that is well. I mean, there's
25:37
Speaker 4: no answer to that at the moment. I think the
25:39
Speaker 4: labor government put out some very very flimsy piece the
25:43
Speaker 4: other day on apprenticeships, but you know, so what the
25:47
Speaker 4: point is that you need to put in front of
25:49
Speaker 4: people the idea that creating is not only enjoyable, but
25:55
Speaker 4: also practical and totally normal. And I think that's been
25:58
Speaker 4: completely lost, exactly like you say, the Claus Schwab line
26:02
Speaker 4: of effectively wanting to render humans utterly, utterly useless.
26:07
Speaker 1: I'm just looking out at Tony Hart's work, and I
26:10
Speaker 1: do vaguely remember his name and his artwork, although I
26:16
Speaker 1: don't think we had his any of his shows yeah,
26:19
Speaker 1: because that was at a time when we were still
26:21
Speaker 1: being sanctioned by most of the world during their partet era.
26:24
Speaker 1: So I think I might have seen some of it
26:25
Speaker 1: in the mid nineties, and it really is beautiful, and
26:31
Speaker 1: I kind of I'm looking at it now and I
26:35
Speaker 1: get so nostalgia because everything that you see now is CGI,
26:39
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, Cartoon Network is just all computer
26:42
Speaker 1: generated stuff, and it just feels so empty. I won't
26:45
Speaker 1: let my kids watch Cartoon Network because there's just nothing
26:48
Speaker 1: there of any kind of value. If they were ever
26:52
Speaker 1: to watch cartoons, it would be you know, the stuff
26:55
Speaker 1: that goes back to the era of real hand drawn
26:58
Speaker 1: creative stuff, you know. I mean I grew up with
27:02
Speaker 1: those cartoons, you know, from the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies.
27:06
Speaker 1: But I mean, yes, something interesting about you were talking
27:09
Speaker 1: earlier about what was pushing back. I don't know if
27:14
Speaker 1: you know the musician Rodriguez, he did that song Sugarman,
27:22
Speaker 1: all right, it doesn't really matter. An American American singer
27:25
Speaker 1: who died I think just two or three years ago. Actually,
27:30
Speaker 1: he was unbelievably famous in South Africa during the apartet era,
27:36
Speaker 1: and he had no idea his entire life. He had
27:40
Speaker 1: no idea how famous he was here, and in fact,
27:42
Speaker 1: he wasn't famous at all in the United States. He
27:45
Speaker 1: karenly working his factory job while being completely bulldozed by
27:49
Speaker 1: his record label, so he didn't really get many record sales.
27:53
Speaker 1: It's a very very interesting story. There's a wonderful documentary
27:56
Speaker 1: about him called I think it's called Sugarman.
28:00
Speaker 4: It's called Searching for Searching for Sugarman. Yeah, I know,
28:04
Speaker 4: I haven't seen it, but I know what you mean.
28:06
Speaker 5: Yeah.
28:07
Speaker 1: Now, what happened was, while he was doing his factory
28:09
Speaker 1: job and singing in bars, his music became a type
28:15
Speaker 1: of resistance to the apartheid regime here in South Africa
28:19
Speaker 1: four years and he had no idea, and his music
28:22
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to be sold here, so itwas being distributed
28:27
Speaker 1: underground throughout the country. When he was eventually informed how
28:34
Speaker 1: massive he was here, this was now just a few
28:37
Speaker 1: years ago, maybe ten to fifteen years ago, maybe a
28:39
Speaker 1: few more years than that. He was brought over to
28:42
Speaker 1: come and perform you and he got out of the
28:44
Speaker 1: aeroplane to red carpet and masses and masses of people.
28:49
Speaker 1: He had absolutely no idea, I mean that's an incredible
28:53
Speaker 1: multi layered story. But it is also a story of
28:57
Speaker 1: when you are continually making things and you've been creative
29:01
Speaker 1: like people were in terms of distributing his music as
29:04
Speaker 1: a kind of resistance to to the oppressive regime that
29:07
Speaker 1: we had. You can't keep people down, no, but that's
29:15
Speaker 1: but that's.
29:16
Speaker 3: A great example of someone just being creative for creativity's sake.
29:22
Speaker 2: So he was clearly had no idea what.
29:25
Speaker 3: Impact he was having on people, but that wasn't his
29:28
Speaker 3: motivation for doing it.
29:30
Speaker 2: Part of the part of.
29:31
Speaker 3: The problem that we have to resolve is that, you know,
29:36
Speaker 3: the likes of Britain's Got Talent or the X Factor
29:41
Speaker 3: has convinced people that there's no point being creative unless
29:46
Speaker 3: you are you know, it's it's become a journey of narcissism.
29:51
Speaker 3: Unless you unless you are famous and a massive influencer
29:55
Speaker 3: or selling a million records a week, you have no
30:00
Speaker 3: purpose in life and so you might as well just
30:03
Speaker 3: give it up. And you know, the message very strongly
30:06
Speaker 3: and and with the X Factor was was yeah, you're
30:10
Speaker 3: you're you're rubbish, so so go away sort of thing,
30:13
Speaker 3: not interested in you, You might as well quit, you know,
30:16
Speaker 3: we shouldn't actually care too much about whether we are
30:22
Speaker 3: you know, objectively.
30:23
Speaker 2: Good or not. We should just be.
30:28
Speaker 3: Happy with what we're you know, we should do. I mean,
30:31
Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting we shouldn't do the best that we
30:33
Speaker 3: could possibly do. But if, if, if we can only
30:35
Speaker 3: ever reach a certain level of skill with with a
30:37
Speaker 3: musical instrument, for example, or with a pint brush, that
30:40
Speaker 3: shouldn't stop us trying, and it shouldn't stop us getting
30:43
Speaker 3: enjoyment from from doing that, and it shouldn't stop us
30:46
Speaker 3: learning from the exercise either.
30:50
Speaker 2: The problem is.
30:51
Speaker 3: That so much of creativity has become something which is, uh,
30:55
Speaker 3: you know, a mechanism towards some kind of narcissistic fame,
30:58
Speaker 3: and that's uh something we should reject absolutely well.
31:03
Speaker 1: I mean, Mike, I failed art school. I mean, I
31:07
Speaker 1: don't know how you fail art school, but I failed
31:09
Speaker 1: art school and I still went on to do art
31:13
Speaker 1: because I love it so much. And it's not exactly
31:15
Speaker 1: a great career choice. I wouldn't, you know, recommend people
31:19
Speaker 1: try and become a cartoonist, for example, but it is nonetheless,
31:23
Speaker 1: you know, something that I absolutely love, and so I
31:27
Speaker 1: defied my lecturers and say, well, I'm not going to
31:31
Speaker 1: listen to you. I'm still going to I mean, the
31:33
Speaker 1: fact that you have to go to art school to
31:36
Speaker 1: do art also, it's kind of weird anyway if you
31:38
Speaker 1: actually think about it, Like why must you go and
31:41
Speaker 1: get a degree in art in order to become an artist?
31:44
Speaker 1: Doesn't make any sense?
31:47
Speaker 5: It depends, doesn't it.
31:47
Speaker 4: I mean, I can see if there's an element of
31:52
Speaker 4: learning practically how to use you know, what effect you
31:56
Speaker 4: can create, say using a particular medium, and you would
31:58
Speaker 4: not otherwise, or it would take you years and years
32:01
Speaker 4: years to work out that by by trial and error.
32:04
Speaker 4: I can see there's a there's a practical purpose in it,
32:06
Speaker 4: but certainly to be to be taught sort of conditioned,
32:10
Speaker 4: as it were, in terms of concepts, I find that, Yeah,
32:13
Speaker 4: I would totally agree that is that is absolutely extraordinary,
32:16
Speaker 4: and I know it absolutely happens.
32:17
Speaker 5: I mean, I fund enough.
32:19
Speaker 4: I had a conversation with the parent of a teenage
32:23
Speaker 4: girl relatively recently who was in a similar predicament. The
32:27
Speaker 4: girl this this was a at I think at what's
32:32
Speaker 4: called a level, which is the sort of the last
32:34
Speaker 4: set of exams that you would do before leaving secondary
32:37
Speaker 4: school in the UK and the girl in question was
32:40
Speaker 4: doing art a level and was basically being told by
32:43
Speaker 4: her teachers that such and such a thing that she
32:47
Speaker 4: was producing, and it was there's nothing to do with whether
32:49
Speaker 4: it was necessarily perceived to be good or bad, you know,
32:52
Speaker 4: whether she had talent or not. It was just well,
32:55
Speaker 4: you're not going to get any marks for that, because
32:57
Speaker 4: that's not you know, that's not dealing with the sort
32:59
Speaker 4: of the sorts of things that we believe the examiners
33:02
Speaker 4: are going to want to see. Absolutely amazing, So just
33:06
Speaker 4: straight away you just you know, toss the creativity in
33:08
Speaker 4: the air and just jump.
33:09
Speaker 5: Them down and stamp on it.
33:10
Speaker 4: I mean it's so peculiar and also puts the not
33:15
Speaker 4: just the child, but puts the parent in a very
33:17
Speaker 4: difficult position, you know, having a child in school where
33:20
Speaker 4: that's the response to your your progenies, desire and creativity.
33:26
Speaker 4: I mean, what do you do do you say, okay, well,
33:31
Speaker 4: just crack on and do what you're doing and accept
33:34
Speaker 4: that the you know, you are past, you're on a
33:36
Speaker 4: course and therefore you're going to get a grade, and
33:39
Speaker 4: that grade is going to tell not just you, but
33:42
Speaker 4: anyone that you pass the grade on to that you're
33:43
Speaker 4: absolutely rubbish and that has frankly nothing to do with
33:48
Speaker 4: I mean it, it is really difficult, so I.
33:53
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's a very very odd.
33:57
Speaker 4: Situation to find months off in, but then again it
33:59
Speaker 4: is it is also completely fascinating and this is this
34:03
Speaker 4: is something that I think from a British perspective, Jake
34:07
Speaker 4: Fern is very interesting on because his experiences in art school,
34:13
Speaker 4: where he effectively he describes his sort of peer group
34:20
Speaker 4: as having entering having entered into a Marxist cult, or
34:25
Speaker 4: at least that's where they were being pushed as a
34:27
Speaker 4: body of art students. And you know, if you didn't
34:31
Speaker 4: go along with this, that and the other you were
34:34
Speaker 4: you were in effect hold the same thing, which is
34:35
Speaker 4: why you're not going to make it. And that just
34:39
Speaker 4: tells you so many things about the governing influences and
34:44
Speaker 4: indeed the well you might say, if you're giving them
34:47
Speaker 4: a benefit of a doubt, the narrow mindedness of the
34:49
Speaker 4: people that are teaching that stuff and actually putting that forward.
34:54
Speaker 4: I mean, in many ways it's it's pathetic, but it's
34:57
Speaker 4: also deeply sinister.
35:00
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, again, you can't stop people from being creative.
35:04
Speaker 1: The punk movement, particularly in your country, the UK, has
35:10
Speaker 1: had a phenomenal, phenomenal interest impact on music, on the
35:15
Speaker 1: history of music, and it was a response to a
35:19
Speaker 1: rather boring society at the time in the you know,
35:22
Speaker 1: the early nineteen seventies, the established order. You know, I
35:26
Speaker 1: know that punk as have started in the US, but
35:28
Speaker 1: it started on kind of on a different footing. But
35:32
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's undeniable how creative the entire punk
35:37
Speaker 1: history was. I mean, it went beyond music blues also
35:41
Speaker 1: as a response to, you know, oppression of black people
35:44
Speaker 1: in the US, which led them to rock and roll. Yeah,
35:52
Speaker 1: I mean, but that's creativity. That's that's my point. It's
35:55
Speaker 1: creativity on.
35:58
Speaker 5: The face of it.
35:59
Speaker 4: I have to admit I'm insufficiently qualified to remark on
36:03
Speaker 4: either of those two things, except for the fact that,
36:05
Speaker 4: as far as I can tell, punk the sort of
36:08
Speaker 4: the ethos was completely subverted, and certainly in the UK,
36:14
Speaker 4: punk became synonymous, not not musically, but sort of culturally.
36:18
Speaker 4: Punk became synonymous with somebody who was an irreverent, callous idiot.
36:25
Speaker 4: And I don't think that was really anything to do
36:28
Speaker 4: with how it was supposed to start. Sort of from
36:30
Speaker 4: a musical point of view. So it just goes to
36:32
Speaker 4: show that if there was anything that was sort of
36:37
Speaker 4: genuine and inspired in the first instance, that hadn't been
36:42
Speaker 4: created and crafted with some nefarious purpose in mind, then
36:47
Speaker 4: it was quickly seized upon in order that it was
36:51
Speaker 4: effectively denigrated in front of the people that were supposed
36:55
Speaker 4: to be appreciating it, so that its message was lost.
36:59
Speaker 4: That what the story is with Well, I say, what
37:02
Speaker 4: the story is what if there is a sort of
37:04
Speaker 4: an alternative backstory to blues music, then I don't know
37:07
Speaker 4: what it is.
37:08
Speaker 5: So again, somebody please.
37:11
Speaker 1: It's related to to black opression in the US effective?
37:15
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well exactly.
37:18
Speaker 4: But but you know, the question that has to be
37:20
Speaker 4: asked with any of these things, any of these movements,
37:22
Speaker 4: is was that sort of hesitate to use the word
37:25
Speaker 4: but was that organic and it did actually come from
37:28
Speaker 4: somewhere else?
37:29
Speaker 1: I just don't know, combination depending on the scenario and
37:32
Speaker 1: the time and weird work.
37:35
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think.
37:36
Speaker 3: I think the problem with all these things is once
37:38
Speaker 3: to become commercialized, then then they become corrupted in many
37:46
Speaker 3: ways from their original intent. And that's that's that's sort
37:50
Speaker 3: of where why it is important for you know, individuals,
37:57
Speaker 3: ordinary people to be expressing themselves ourselves in some way
38:04
Speaker 3: because you know that the external influence is probably not there,
38:10
Speaker 3: at least it's certainly not there to the same degree.
38:13
Speaker 5: But I mean so.
38:15
Speaker 1: Sorry Mike was jumping. I'm just thinking, if we're talking
38:17
Speaker 1: about music as a type of creative resistance, we think
38:20
Speaker 1: about the HIPI era, right, and sure there was a
38:22
Speaker 1: lot of subversion going on. I think we know that,
38:25
Speaker 1: but at least there were a large number of people
38:29
Speaker 1: trying to make their voice heard that they did not
38:31
Speaker 1: like the US getting involved in foreigners.
38:35
Speaker 3: But no, but you know, but you see the problem
38:37
Speaker 3: there is German there was an organization called the Congress
38:41
Speaker 3: from Cultural Freedom which was absolutely a CIA front. Yes,
38:46
Speaker 3: just driving a lot of that and so and I
38:49
Speaker 3: mean it even had Bertrand Russell as it's as its
38:51
Speaker 3: chairman or president of a kind, remember exactly what his
38:54
Speaker 3: role was. But but you know, the point is that
38:57
Speaker 3: was a CIA CIA opera to turn society, to turn
39:04
Speaker 3: a certain section of society in a particular direction, and
39:07
Speaker 3: to try to influence the the direction of society as
39:11
Speaker 3: a whole. So so you can't unfortunately, we can't look
39:16
Speaker 3: back at particularly big so called cultural influences of the
39:22
Speaker 3: sort of mid to late twentieth century, and and and
39:25
Speaker 3: have any confidence that those that were any of them
39:28
Speaker 3: were actually, at least in the way that they ultimately
39:32
Speaker 3: were expressed, that any of that was in any way organic.
39:35
Speaker 1: Bob gouldof himself was a bad actor.
39:40
Speaker 2: Well but but but.
39:47
Speaker 3: You're gonna have to edit this bit because because when
39:50
Speaker 3: I demonstrate this level of simility, it does get embarrassing
39:57
Speaker 3: thinking of here, Well, you know he he is absolutely
40:04
Speaker 3: occupying his time and amongst the top levels of globalist society.
40:09
Speaker 3: So you know, there are a number of people within
40:13
Speaker 3: the music industry that are, with our question, doing something
40:19
Speaker 3: other than they may wish people to believe they're doing.
40:25
Speaker 1: But I think the point ultimately is that, as I
40:29
Speaker 1: said right at the beginning, creativity as part of who
40:31
Speaker 1: we are, and we have to be so aware that
40:33
Speaker 1: there are all these attempts to try and suppress it,
40:36
Speaker 1: everything to keep us distracted in the attention economy. And ultimately,
40:41
Speaker 1: if you are if you are perpetually wired and thinking
40:46
Speaker 1: about everything that's going on around you, you're never actually
40:49
Speaker 1: going to think critically about things. You're never actually going
40:52
Speaker 1: to make anything. You're never going to do anything that's
40:55
Speaker 1: new and novel, and you will become part of the
40:59
Speaker 1: sort of transhumanist machine that that cars Schwab was was
41:02
Speaker 1: talking about you. You will become that useless eater. That's
41:05
Speaker 1: why it's so important to have a hobby, for example,
41:07
Speaker 1: something as simple as that. It's the most basic.
41:11
Speaker 3: Yes, But the thing is, Jeremy, you just never know,
41:13
Speaker 3: You never know what right. We're all taught that, you know,
41:18
Speaker 3: we can be one of two things. Wether we can
41:21
Speaker 3: either be the absolute narcissist and we have the likes
41:26
Speaker 3: of you know, some of these big music producers behind us,
41:32
Speaker 3: Simon Carl, whoever it is that turns us into some
41:36
Speaker 3: kind of cultural megastar, and it's all fake ordinary people
41:46
Speaker 3: that have a creative mind or a creative inspiration. You
41:53
Speaker 3: just never know who who is going to do something
41:55
Speaker 3: which is going to actually inspire other people. And and
41:59
Speaker 3: so we should not up. You know, while while we
42:01
Speaker 3: should not ever be aiming at at this level of
42:05
Speaker 3: narcissism that we're saying, that promoted in front of us
42:09
Speaker 3: on television and on YouTube and so on, we should
42:13
Speaker 3: also not be afraid just to express ourselves because something
42:19
Speaker 3: might just trigger something in somebody else which might start something.
42:22
Speaker 2: You just never know, So so you know.
42:25
Speaker 3: That that is that is why we should, all of
42:29
Speaker 3: us should be doing something which is creative in and
42:34
Speaker 3: of itself, without the intention of ever perhaps making any
42:40
Speaker 3: major impact on the world. But you just never know, Well,
42:44
Speaker 3: anybody that does.
42:45
Speaker 1: That, at the end of the day, you're also alluding
42:47
Speaker 1: to something really important. And I said this to Charles
42:49
Speaker 1: last week. Self censorship is a wonderful way to damage creativity.
42:55
Speaker 1: And self censorship is a result of being scared of
43:00
Speaker 1: hurting somebody's feelings or being scared of what happens.
43:03
Speaker 3: But it's also it's also about being scared of having
43:06
Speaker 3: your own feelings hurt, because of course we do live
43:09
Speaker 3: in a toxic social media atmosphere, and so it is
43:14
Speaker 3: also I'm not going to underestimate the bravery that it
43:19
Speaker 3: text to actually put yourself out there, because it can
43:22
Speaker 3: be very, very unpleasant sometimes. And so people do have
43:25
Speaker 3: to recognize that that got to be somewhat thicker skin
43:32
Speaker 3: than maybe they might otherwise have needed to be at
43:35
Speaker 3: some point in the past.
43:37
Speaker 1: That's that's a really good point. Actually being thick skin
43:41
Speaker 1: because creativity comes with that, because you're making yourself vulnerable.
43:47
Speaker 1: Excuse me, you're making yourself vulnerable when you make something,
43:50
Speaker 1: for example, if you make a song, if you write
43:52
Speaker 1: a song, or you paint something, or you even put
43:56
Speaker 1: yourself in front of the camera like an UK column,
44:00
Speaker 1: making yourself vulnerable.
44:06
Speaker 5: Yeah, to a certain extent.
44:07
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it depends why you're why you
44:10
Speaker 4: are creating something in first place. And I think this
44:12
Speaker 4: goes back to the encroachment of narcissism into people's lives,
44:18
Speaker 4: I mean deliberately, so you know that that's exactly what
44:21
Speaker 4: those television programs are about, the sort of the love
44:26
Speaker 4: of self rather than the love of creativity. And so
44:30
Speaker 4: if you paint something, I mean, crikey, I draw and
44:35
Speaker 4: dabble a bit in watercolors and what not. I don't
44:38
Speaker 4: think I've ever shown one to anyone. I mean, why
44:40
Speaker 4: why would I do that?
44:42
Speaker 1: Can you play bagpipes?
44:46
Speaker 5: Pipe down?
44:50
Speaker 4: But the point is, this is the whole thread of
44:55
Speaker 4: this of this discussion, really is that it does the
44:59
Speaker 4: It does the mind, body, and soul good to create.
45:03
Speaker 4: I mean, that is absolutely demonstrable. What you then do
45:08
Speaker 4: with that creation is sometimes up to you sometimes up
45:12
Speaker 4: to other people. And the way I mean, the way
45:15
Speaker 4: I believe it should work is that is that in
45:18
Speaker 4: becoming aware of whatever it is that somebody else does do,
45:21
Speaker 4: whether it's the creation of poetry or prose, or sculpture
45:25
Speaker 4: or painting or indeed knitting jumpers or whatever it is,
45:28
Speaker 4: if it's recognized. First of all, it has to be
45:31
Speaker 4: seen or heard or whatever. But if it's recognized that
45:34
Speaker 4: there is a skill there that other people would like
45:36
Speaker 4: to receive the benefit of, then they can encourage that
45:39
Speaker 4: person to do more of it. And that's exactly, you know,
45:42
Speaker 4: going back to when Brian started producing the Devenport column
45:45
Speaker 4: twenty years ago, the reason the UK column exists today
45:48
Speaker 4: is that people kept encouraging because they did think that
45:50
Speaker 4: that creation was worthwhile. It was something that they were
45:53
Speaker 4: prepared to invest in. And the same should apply to everything.
45:57
Speaker 4: And I think that that is a critical part to it,
46:01
Speaker 4: which is not at all to say that whenever you
46:03
Speaker 4: sit down to write something or draw something or sculpt something,
46:06
Speaker 4: you're thinking, oh, you know, I wonder where I could
46:08
Speaker 4: be in ten years time. You know, I wonder who's
46:11
Speaker 4: going to decide that they want to pay millions of
46:14
Speaker 4: pounds for this. That's fundamentally the wrong place to start.
46:18
Speaker 4: You're doing it because first of all, you get pleasure
46:21
Speaker 4: in doing it. You're wanting to develop whatever it is
46:25
Speaker 4: that you think you're creating or learning. I mean, okay,
46:28
Speaker 4: everyone's going to have slightly different motivations. But you know,
46:32
Speaker 4: you're storytelling, you're recording, you're documenting. There are a load
46:36
Speaker 4: of different motivations. I would say absolutely at the bottom
46:39
Speaker 4: of that list, slash having dropped off the bottom of
46:42
Speaker 4: it is sort of what you can get from it
46:45
Speaker 4: if But that's why I do make the distinction between
46:47
Speaker 4: what would be described as as say, works of art
46:51
Speaker 4: and practical things. You know, if you live on an
46:54
Speaker 4: island and you are the one person who has the
46:56
Speaker 4: skills to build boats or fishing nets or whatever, well
47:00
Speaker 4: I mean to sit on that and not teach anyone else,
47:03
Speaker 4: or not to in any way project it would be
47:08
Speaker 4: well could be construed as selfish. You know, there would
47:12
Speaker 4: be there would be a benefit not just to you
47:14
Speaker 4: but to others from doing that. So I think there
47:16
Speaker 4: are lots of considerations with all of this, But as
47:19
Speaker 4: I say, where people are placed now is to consider
47:24
Speaker 4: primarily everything back to front. You know, it's the sort
47:29
Speaker 4: of well, how famous do I want to be? How
47:31
Speaker 4: much money do I want to try and have? And
47:34
Speaker 4: then reverse engineer it to right, well, what computer program
47:38
Speaker 4: is going to generate whatever music that such and such
47:41
Speaker 4: a generation is supposed to like. It's so cynical and
47:45
Speaker 4: it's just it's diabolical but tragic that sadly statistics reflect
47:51
Speaker 4: the fact that the majority of people are not yet
47:53
Speaker 4: seeing through this.
47:55
Speaker 5: Why not.
47:57
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, and also I mean, if you think
48:01
Speaker 1: about it, right, So there's also a sense of community
48:03
Speaker 1: that happens here. Give an example. So here on the
48:07
Speaker 1: farm that we live on, about forty or fifty homes
48:11
Speaker 1: here country estate, they had a band, local band that
48:16
Speaker 1: came and set up on this big patch of grass
48:22
Speaker 1: and we all went down and put our blankets down,
48:25
Speaker 1: and the little coffee shop that's there brought us red
48:28
Speaker 1: wine and pizzas and whatever. And it was such a
48:32
Speaker 1: nice time because it brought everybody together. There's a sense
48:36
Speaker 1: of community that you otherwise don't get when you're on
48:39
Speaker 1: your phone, and it was just a lovely evening and
48:43
Speaker 1: you go home after that and you feel there's a
48:47
Speaker 1: sense of meaning, you know, that comes out of just
48:51
Speaker 1: something as simple as making music. You know, it affects
48:56
Speaker 1: a whole lot of people. It doesn't just affect you.
48:58
Speaker 1: And they're not there to try and you know, become famous.
49:01
Speaker 1: They just did because it's a great evening. And and
49:05
Speaker 1: so the the the positive benefit, the benefits go well
49:09
Speaker 1: beyond just for themselves. It affects everybody else around them.
49:15
Speaker 1: And and and that I find so sad that it
49:19
Speaker 1: is being lost in the attention economy that's that's going
49:23
Speaker 1: on around us.
49:27
Speaker 3: The only way to solve that is to is to
49:29
Speaker 3: remember what what it used to be. And and of
49:33
Speaker 3: course the possibility that people would remember how it used
49:38
Speaker 3: to be is uh. It's why we are bombarded with
49:42
Speaker 3: this idea that nostalgia is a bad thing. And this
49:46
Speaker 3: has been something that's been promoted the nostalgia is a
49:51
Speaker 3: bad thing for the last five six years in particular.
49:54
Speaker 2: It suddenly nostalgia became a word.
49:57
Speaker 3: That was being boundied about by many thinks, tanks and
50:00
Speaker 3: and uh mainstream press that we don't want to be
50:04
Speaker 3: looking back at how things. We want to be staring
50:07
Speaker 3: at our smartphones the whole time. We have to we
50:11
Speaker 3: have to remember a little bit of what we uh
50:15
Speaker 3: what what how things used to be and and maybe
50:18
Speaker 3: think that that is something we might want to recreate
50:24
Speaker 3: in some way, and even that creative. The course progress
50:31
Speaker 3: is switch the damn phone off.
50:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, but but progress isn't always a good thing, No.
50:37
Speaker 2: I think.
50:38
Speaker 3: I think that the the the direction of travel at
50:41
Speaker 3: the moment, the progress that we are on at this
50:45
Speaker 3: point in time as families, as societies is extremely negative.
50:51
Speaker 3: And uh, but you know it again, it comes down
50:56
Speaker 3: to this old question of are we prepared to be uh,
51:00
Speaker 3: to have our course in life charted for us by others,
51:04
Speaker 3: or are we going to take control of that to
51:07
Speaker 3: some degree, whether that's as individuals or as a family
51:11
Speaker 3: group or something slightly larger than that.
51:15
Speaker 1: I was having a conversation. I'm so sorry, so I
51:17
Speaker 1: thought you'd finished.
51:18
Speaker 2: No, go right, go ahead.
51:19
Speaker 1: I was having a conversation with my cousin. He's an
51:22
Speaker 1: incredibly talented musician, knows a lot of musical theory, but
51:27
Speaker 1: he himself is a very good musician, and we were
51:30
Speaker 1: actually discussing AI music and he outright says, it's not real.
51:36
Speaker 1: It's just not real. Even if it sounds like music
51:40
Speaker 1: has a beat everything. It goes against the very grain
51:43
Speaker 1: of what it means to create something. It's basically an
51:46
Speaker 1: amalgamation of everything else that exists and that's been put
51:50
Speaker 1: together through an algorithm. And he says he rejects it
51:53
Speaker 1: outright as a result, And I think that's an attitude
51:57
Speaker 1: that perhaps is healthy. We need to also search for
52:02
Speaker 1: what is real, and I think that's going to be
52:05
Speaker 1: quite hard. I mean, I'm thinking of my child. You know,
52:07
Speaker 1: what's it going to look like twenty years from now.
52:10
Speaker 1: It's pretty scary.
52:18
Speaker 2: Your chance.
52:19
Speaker 4: No, no, I'm sorry. That was just that was a
52:22
Speaker 4: note of agreement. I think it is, and I think
52:26
Speaker 4: people should I mean, what's the point in saying this
52:31
Speaker 4: to an audience who are minded to listen to this
52:33
Speaker 4: in the first place. But I would hope that people
52:35
Speaker 4: do buck up and realize, because I think the point
52:41
Speaker 4: that should be made that I think we have made,
52:47
Speaker 4: is that this is related to so many other things,
52:51
Speaker 4: and if you lose creativity in the most general sense,
52:57
Speaker 4: then all the benefits that society is supposed to reap
53:04
Speaker 4: from coalescing and forming units of some sort of togetherness
53:11
Speaker 4: are lost because people cannot work out how to do
53:16
Speaker 4: all the sorts of things that they have achieved over
53:20
Speaker 4: the ages, and we appear to be in a decline.
53:23
Speaker 4: So to the point about progress, I think progress is
53:26
Speaker 4: a very sneakily used word because it implies positive change.
53:34
Speaker 4: I think that is not at all the way that
53:39
Speaker 4: things are changing, and there are there are I would say,
53:45
Speaker 4: you know, infinite examples of something changing, but they're not
53:50
Speaker 4: being any any improvement, but it's described as being progress.
53:58
Speaker 5: Sorry, Mike, go on, No.
53:59
Speaker 3: I was just going to say, I mean, it'd be
54:00
Speaker 3: worth just just commenting on on why AI music is
54:04
Speaker 3: not real. And Charles sort of alluded to this earlier
54:10
Speaker 3: on when he was talking about Renaissance art for example,
54:14
Speaker 3: that that that there were messages in that there was
54:17
Speaker 3: an intent in that piece of art. And even if
54:20
Speaker 3: you look at classical music, it doesn't matter. In fact,
54:23
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter what the genre is. There's intent in
54:27
Speaker 3: in what.
54:29
Speaker 2: What has been produced.
54:31
Speaker 3: Whereas the best at AI can do is it can
54:35
Speaker 3: to some degree understand the rules of music. It can
54:39
Speaker 3: be trained to understand what humans created in the past
54:46
Speaker 3: that was that became popular or that is considered good,
54:50
Speaker 3: and it can it can just produce use mathematics to
54:55
Speaker 3: produce something which which in some in some way replicate
55:01
Speaker 3: some aspects of of but it's not. There's no there's
55:04
Speaker 3: no creative there's no creative act in it, there's no
55:07
Speaker 3: intent in it, there's no message, and so therefore it
55:11
Speaker 3: is an empty shell. And so absolutely get what your
55:15
Speaker 3: friend was saying about about that. We should absolutely be
55:21
Speaker 3: rejecting anything that Ai produces that that claims to be
55:28
Speaker 3: in some way cultural, because it's there's there's nothing real,
55:32
Speaker 3: there's nothing human, there's nothing creative in it.
55:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was saying to me also that, I mean,
55:38
Speaker 1: he saw the statue of David where is it not
55:40
Speaker 1: it's in Italy, Someway, isn't it. No, it's Florence, that's right,
55:44
Speaker 1: And he said he stood in front of it and
55:46
Speaker 1: he got emotional because he realized right there that a
55:51
Speaker 1: guy actually, with his own hands, you know, created that.
55:56
Speaker 1: Sure there was intent and there was a budget, et cetera,
55:58
Speaker 1: et cetera, but he's still created it. And my wife
56:03
Speaker 1: and I went too Versai a few years ago, and
56:05
Speaker 1: you know, I stood under those ceilings and I looked
56:07
Speaker 1: at that art and it was just majestic. Without going
56:13
Speaker 1: into any of the politics, of the time, just experiencing
56:17
Speaker 1: that art is something on a level. That's that's it's it's.
56:21
Speaker 3: I hit the You've just hit the nail on the head.
56:24
Speaker 3: It has to be experienced. Yes, it can't be experienced
56:27
Speaker 3: on a screen, right, it has to be experienced. That
56:31
Speaker 3: That is part of the process. That's part of the
56:34
Speaker 3: creative process, is to experience art because in that experience
56:38
Speaker 3: you learn and then you you get inspiration for expressing
56:43
Speaker 3: yourself in other ways.
56:45
Speaker 1: And you cannot replicate that. Yeah, you cannot replicate that
56:48
Speaker 1: with an algorithm.
56:55
Speaker 4: Okay, So the other the other point, well, actually I
56:58
Speaker 4: did to talk about this is a bit last week,
56:59
Speaker 4: and in reference to Camille Paglia's assertions about the decline
57:04
Speaker 4: of a particular civilization and how that's reflected in its art.
57:06
Speaker 4: Of course, the other point to make about not just
57:10
Speaker 4: verse I, but but the Michael and jos David is
57:15
Speaker 4: of course what David himself looked like, which is like
57:20
Speaker 4: a like a man should look And you don't get
57:25
Speaker 4: many of them around these days.
57:29
Speaker 5: Which I that's not it.
57:30
Speaker 4: Well that you know, I don't say that, and by
57:35
Speaker 4: the way, I'm not saying you don't get too many
57:37
Speaker 4: naked men walking around the place. I'm talking about people
57:40
Speaker 4: who are actually in the right shape. And this is
57:43
Speaker 4: always a there's always a tricky subject. People don't like
57:45
Speaker 4: to talk about it. But but crikee, if we've progressed
57:49
Speaker 4: from there to what we are now, I'm afraid to say,
57:53
Speaker 4: I absolutely throw progress back in whoever's face that's come from.
57:57
Speaker 5: It's just nonsense. We haven't progressed. That's that is not
58:01
Speaker 5: the case.
58:02
Speaker 4: It's very easy to demonstrate that with exactly what you say,
58:05
Speaker 4: by looking at not just the incredible craftsman's craftsmanship that
58:12
Speaker 4: was involved in creating a statue like David, but also
58:15
Speaker 4: looking at David himself, and then again exactly the same
58:17
Speaker 4: with verse I. I know we are in talking about
58:20
Speaker 4: those things like that, we are putting to one side
58:24
Speaker 4: the other influences that are there, and so I do
58:29
Speaker 4: some insert that caveat, But nonetheless, I mean, kriikee, really
58:33
Speaker 4: progress from there?
58:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Look, this is a very abstract conversation and
58:39
Speaker 1: I think we've done well to stretch it out into
58:42
Speaker 1: an hour. But I mean, I think the moral of
58:43
Speaker 1: the story is actually the importance of making stuff and
58:48
Speaker 1: not forgetting that. If you just outsource everything. You lose
58:53
Speaker 1: the ability to be creative, and I think by extension,
58:55
Speaker 1: you lose what it means to actually be human and
58:58
Speaker 1: you fall prey to the agenda that Clash was talking about.
59:03
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
59:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, We've got to participate. We've got to actually participate
59:07
Speaker 3: in life and not just sit there like a vegetable
59:11
Speaker 3: on a sofa.
59:12
Speaker 2: Consuming this is. This has to be absolutely rejected.
59:18
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
59:19
Speaker 4: Now where are we on sampling pieces of music to
59:24
Speaker 4: splice into this podcast?
59:26
Speaker 5: Is that something we're allowed to do.
59:29
Speaker 1: It depends on the copyright issues.
59:32
Speaker 5: That's a shame, all right.
59:34
Speaker 4: I can't remember the name of it, but there's a
59:36
Speaker 4: song this is This is why I say get it
59:38
Speaker 4: in because I can't remember the name of it, but
59:39
Speaker 4: there is there is a song that's been running through
59:41
Speaker 4: my head that refers to exactly this, which is about
59:46
Speaker 4: the young girl. Because I can't remember the words, that's
59:50
Speaker 4: the problem. I can't remember nearly enough of it. But
59:53
Speaker 4: it is good. But it's the whole point of it
59:56
Speaker 4: is it's creating for the sake of creating. It's art
59:59
Speaker 4: for the sake of art. It's drawing for the sake
1:00:01
Speaker 4: of drawing. Anyone who knows it. I think it's by
1:00:04
Speaker 4: Alex somebody and it references a young girl in the
1:00:06
Speaker 4: East Riding of Yorkshire and I can't remember any more
1:00:09
Speaker 4: than that. It's really annoying me, so so somebody's creative
1:00:13
Speaker 4: juices are fired by that. Then do tell me what
1:00:18
Speaker 4: it is and then put the link somewhere and people
1:00:20
Speaker 4: can listen to it. So I think it's great, fits
1:00:22
Speaker 4: very well with what we've been talking about.
1:00:24
Speaker 1: That just reminds me quickly. This is not related at all,
1:00:26
Speaker 1: but Peter Sellers told a great story about a song
1:00:31
Speaker 1: that somebody wanted him to sing because he also played
1:00:33
Speaker 1: in a band. He played the kettle drum, and he
1:00:35
Speaker 1: said he go and find it on YouTube. It's extremely funny.
1:00:39
Speaker 1: He tells the story of how this guy was trying
1:00:41
Speaker 1: to get them to play a song and he couldn't
1:00:44
Speaker 1: remember the name. So anyway, it's worth listening to you, okay,
1:00:52
Speaker 1: Mike and Charles. I appreciate the conversation and cash up
1:00:56
Speaker 1: with newsp