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Ma & Pa Kent: The Faces Behind Super Values · Systematic Geekology

• 1:15
  Yo are here for a reason.
• 1:18
  I don't know what that reason is, but it's not for scoring touchdowns.
• 1:21
  There is my terrible impression of Glenn Ford's Jonathan Kent in the 1978 Superman movie.
• 1:27
  Of course.
• 1:28
  Because today on Systematic Ecology, we are doing another episode of the Faces Behind Us where we look at some of the characters who are integral to our favorite characters.
• 1:39
  So instead of talking about Superman or Spider man, we talk about characters like Uncle Ben and like John and Martha Kent.
• 1:47
  And John and Martha Kent is who we are discussing today in relation to Superman.
• 1:51
  So very excited to talk about, you know, who these characters are, our backgrounds with them and what they mean to the Superman mythology and to Superman and Clark Kent as a character.
• 2:02
  So this is systematic geekology.
• 2:05
  We are the priest of the geeks.
• 2:06
  I am one of your hosts, Kevin Schaefer, joined with here.
• 2:10
  Joining here with me is Christian Ashley.
• 2:13
  Christian and I want to both apologize in advance.
• 2:15
  We're probably going to be spewing word vomit because we, for context, we're recording at 5pm on a Friday night.
• 2:23
  Christian's got a cold.
• 2:24
  I'm just tired from work, and I had aqua therapy earlier today.
• 2:29
  So we're going to give it our best today.
• 2:31
  But if we're not at our normal high level of energy, that is why.
• 2:37
  So we're, you know, but we're here.
• 2:39
  I'm glad you got there first.
• 2:40
  I feel better than I did before.
• 2:42
  But, you know, still not there yet.
• 2:44
  But we'll get it done.
• 2:45
  It is the beauty of podcasting.
• 2:47
  Like, you know, we can do it, like, when we're not feeling great and we're a little tired.
• 2:53
  But it does help to not be sick and not be exhausted.
• 2:56
  But hey, I mean, I can pretty much talk about Superman in my sleep.
• 3:00
  So, you know, I don't really consider this work or anything.
• 3:04
  So this should be fun.
• 3:05
  But.
• 3:06
  Yeah.
• 3:06
  But Christian, great to have you here today.
• 3:09
  Yeah, I'm excited for this episode.
• 3:12
  And before we get started on your main topic, and a little more about the show, Christian, what else have you been geeking out on lately?
• 3:22
  I bit the bullet.
• 3:23
  As you know, I'm getting ready for whenever Kingdom Hearts 4 releases, and I'm in chain of memories right now.
• 3:28
  Okay, nice, Nice.
• 3:30
  I mean, is it one D23 they talked about, like, it's going to be Disney plus series eventually.
• 3:38
  Yes.
• 3:38
  They're making an anime based off of it.
• 3:40
  And that may have contributed to another reason why I fell asleep earlier.
• 3:44
  It's not my favorite of the series.
• 3:46
  Ah, gotcha.
• 3:47
  Okay.
• 3:47
  Gotcha.
• 3:48
  Yeah, I mean, I really hope the animated show knocks it out of the park because, I mean, I remember playing the original games way back when.
• 3:55
  I haven't followed it like you and Joshua all these years later, but.
• 3:59
  But it is such a cool concept and I really hope they deliver there.
• 4:03
  So, yeah.
• 4:03
  Yeah, awesome pick for me.
• 4:07
  Kind of opposite end of the spectrum, but I recently I completed a full rewatch of Breaking Bad because it kind of was like.
• 4:16
  Because.
• 4:16
  So I watched on College.
• 4:18
  I was reviewing it back then for student newspaper, and then I actually.
• 4:22
  I mean, I had seen episodes and stuff here and there since, but I hadn't done a full rewatch in years.
• 4:29
  And the reason I did it was because I.
• 4:31
  A friend had never seen it, and I started watching it with them, and then I did just get sucked back, right back into that world.
• 4:38
  So.
• 4:39
  So now I'm on to Better Call Saul.
• 4:40
  I mean, it is, you know, I mean, like, obviously one of the best shows of all time.
• 4:46
  You know, the.
• 4:47
  Like, it's been written about ad nauseam, but it still never gets old.
• 4:53
  And it's one of those where you go back and rewatch and like, yeah, I remember all the big plot points, but it's.
• 4:59
  It's still like discovering it for the first time because you have this fresh perspective.
• 5:03
  So that has been great.
• 5:05
  Very exhausting just because of the emotional whirlwind of a journey you go through and all the atrocities you see this character inflict on everyone.
• 5:16
  But it has been a ride to go back into that world.
• 5:20
  And at least with Better Call Saul, I mean, obviously still very dark, but the comedy there, while, you know, very black comedy, is just delightfully entertaining in many way.
• 5:32
  And Bob Odenkirk's performance is just stellar.
• 5:34
  And I've been really fascinated with his career recently, transitioning into an action movie star.
• 5:40
  I just find him a fascinating figure.
• 5:43
  So that's kind of what I've been doing and, you know, going into deep dives on YouTube and all that.
• 5:48
  So, yeah, so Kingdom Hearts.
• 5:50
  But, yeah, very, very different.
• 5:54
  No, Breaking Bad is one of those series, like, I like it, I don't love it.
• 5:59
  And I lose sympathy for Walter White very, very early on, I'm talking about.
• 6:05
  And I know that that's part of the point.
• 6:07
  But, yeah, I don't really like people who stick with the series and then make him some deific figure, as it were, for the way they talk about it.
• 6:15
  It's like, okay, people like, oh, I.
• 6:17
  Will never understand that.
• 6:19
  Like, I mean, especially on a rewatch, I'm like you.
• 6:21
  I mean that.
• 6:22
  Yeah.
• 6:23
  In season one, okay.
• 6:24
  He's a little more like, okay, he mainly kills bad people.
• 6:28
  But, like, but by season two, oh, I.
• 6:31
  You lose all sympathy for him there.
• 6:33
  For me, it's not so much that it was ever idolizing him, obviously, the performance I'm mesmerized by, but it's more just the storytelling itself and the way you can make a character who is so despicable, compelling.
• 6:49
  It's not so much say that I sympathize, it's just that I'm really, really invigorated by the storytelling.
• 6:54
  But I get that.
• 6:55
  And also, yeah, it's what it concerns me when.
• 6:57
  Even when people have, like, Breaking Bad merchandise, I'm like, I am like, are they on that camp of like, oh, Walter White was so misunderstood.
• 7:06
  Like, yeah, yeah, no, that, that you.
• 7:08
  You completely misunderstood the series.
• 7:10
  But okay.
• 7:11
  It is one of the most consistently well written series out there.
• 7:14
  Sure, sure.
• 7:16
  But after a while, one watcher was enough for me and I.
• 7:19
  At some point, I do need to pick up Better Call Saul.
• 7:21
  Yeah, yeah, I think Saul, you'll like.
• 7:24
  I mean, it.
• 7:24
  It.
• 7:24
  It's really f.
• 7:25
  I mean, it expands on the world in ways that I never thought possible.
• 7:30
  And.
• 7:31
  And again, Odger's performance, and you know, a lot of this too was stemmed because I watched Pluribus last year and you know, the.
• 7:37
  The Vince Gilligan TV universe is just, I mean, like you said, just some of the best writing you'll ever see on tv.
• 7:46
  Yeah.
• 7:46
  So I know I could do a whole episode on that, but yeah, that's definitely what I.
• 7:50
  Where I've been geeking out on lately, so.
• 7:53
  Awesome.
• 7:53
  Well, well, I want to thank everyone for joining today.
• 7:57
  I know this is an audio exclusive episode, so if you're listening on Spotify, Apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts, please rate and review.
• 8:05
  I know every podcast says that, but it does really help the show.
• 8:09
  We are very humble group of podcasters and geek culture enthusiasts, so, you know, we love to hear from you all.
• 8:17
  Check out our YouTube channel as well.
• 8:20
  And if you want to learn how to be a supporter of the show, you can click on the links in the description.
• 8:26
  Today I want to shout out James Barrett, one of our financial supporters.
• 8:31
  We really appreciate you.
• 8:33
  It helps us so much get into, you know, do episodes like this.
• 8:39
  And we also have cool merchandise on our store, so check it out if you want to support the show, even for a small amount, it really does help.
• 8:47
  So also, we have a shirt for our annual Theme which the Faces behind us is our annual theme this year.
• 8:56
  So you can check out that shirt on the website.
• 8:59
  And yeah, we really appreciate all the support.
• 9:02
  So.
• 9:02
  Awesome.
• 9:03
  Well, getting into the main topic.
• 9:05
  So this is the faces behind us.
• 9:07
  We Ma and PA Kent, Martha and Jonathan Kent, the adoptive parents of Superman, who give him the name Clark Kent.
• 9:16
  They're of course from Smallville, Kansas.
• 9:19
  Christian to start out.
• 9:21
  What's kind of.
• 9:22
  I mean, this is a broad question, but what's your background with these scare these characters specifically?
• 9:28
  Like, do you remember the first time you encountered them either in a Superman comic or a movie?
• 9:34
  Yeah, I would.
• 9:36
  For me, it's probably very similar to you.
• 9:38
  It would have been the Animated Series and then eventually the movie, the 78 movie.
• 9:44
  Other movies would come out later on.
• 9:47
  Then of course, they're reading a couple comics that they were in.
• 9:50
  They were never the focal points.
• 9:52
  They were just like, hey, what's Superman's parents?
• 9:55
  But I do remember very long ago when I was maybe 9 or 10, we were at the Lincolnton Library, which was one of the only libraries around us at that time.
• 10:05
  And there was this old Superman fact book from like the 70s.
• 10:09
  And I was just flipping through it while I was waiting for other people to check out there and it said that they were dead.
• 10:14
  And I was like, no, this is terrible.
• 10:16
  How can this be?
• 10:17
  So I don't know if that was a pre crisis thing.
• 10:19
  I'm not Superman.
• 10:20
  I love him, but he's never really been like.
• 10:21
  I've read all the comics for Superman, so I'm pretty certain that was like a pre crisis something where they died, which I didn't understand at the time.
• 10:29
  Well, and also.
• 10:31
  Oh, keeping up with both of them particular pocket.
• 10:34
  Like, I mean, because you'll find different continuities where both of them are still alive.
• 10:38
  Others where PA Kent dies and Ma Kent is still there and then somewhere they both die.
• 10:45
  Like I would say, you know, Uncle Ben is kind of the, you know, in Different Spider man universe, Uncle Ben is pretty much always dead.
• 10:53
  Except for Ultimate Spider Man.
• 10:54
  That's like the one like where they reverse it.
• 10:58
  Jonathan Hickman.
• 11:00
  But other than that, he's pretty much always Mon Pa.
• 11:03
  It really depends on which comic run you're reading, even which TV show or movie.
• 11:11
  It really varies.
• 11:12
  Like I.
• 11:13
  Because for me, before I got really into the comics, I thought it was always like, PA Kent died first and.
• 11:20
  And you know, because they did it so many times in the movies and TV.
• 11:23
  So like in the 78 movie and then in Smallville, Eventually.
• 11:28
  So I, you know, I thought that was pretty, you know, formative to the Superman mythology.
• 11:33
  And in many stories it is.
• 11:34
  But then in others, you know, they.
• 11:36
  They leave them alive.
• 11:37
  So it's comics.
• 11:39
  It just kind of depends on which era you're reading and which story.
• 11:43
  But.
• 11:44
  But nonetheless, I think it's always the, you know, they're so integral to whether you're reading a story or watching a story with Superman where both Ma and Pocket are still there well into his career as Superman or, you
• 12:00
  know, one of them dies before he gets the suit and everything.
• 12:04
  You know, I think the characterization is pretty consistent throughout in terms of.
• 12:10
  These are the formative parents who raise Clark Kent, instill in him his values, and that, in turn, makes Superman who he is, you know, infinitely more, I think, than Jor?
• 12:25
  El and Laurel because.
• 12:26
  Because with that, too, there's different interpretations of them.
• 12:29
  I know you're not a big fan of what they did with the James Gunn one, making Jor El and Laurel, you know, like, you know, conquerors and sending their son and.
• 12:41
  Which is valid.
• 12:42
  But I think that's the interesting thing is that, like, in that movie, it's a good example where, yeah, it changes the characterization and backstory of the Els significantly, but Pa and Ma Kent remain the same.
• 12:57
  There's still the, you know, rural, you know, family value, parents that, again, instill the values in Clark.
• 13:08
  And so that's what I think is really interesting.
• 13:11
  Even when you writers tamper with the origins of Superman and, you know, change some details about Krypton in the background, I would say the characterization of Ma and Pocket remains pretty consistent throughout.
• 13:26
  I mean, granted, there is the, you know, Zack Snyder's film has, you know, a different take on, like.
• 13:32
  Yeah, well, yeah.
• 13:33
  You know, and so.
• 13:34
  But, yeah, I would say even then, it's like they still have the, you know, parental care over him.
• 13:40
  In that case, it's more, you know, Pocket is not sure about Superman revealing his powers to others and helping others, which, you know, not the best advice, in my opinion.
• 13:52
  But.
• 13:53
  But, yeah, so, I mean, there's still different interpretations, but for the most part, there are consistent traits with both of them in different stories and in different eras.
• 15:54
  You raised some good points there.
• 15:55
  You know, I am not a Snyder bro by any stretch of the imagination.
• 16:01
  The whole conceal.
• 16:02
  Don't feel part of the Jonathan they made for that movie.
• 16:05
  I don't care for where he decided instead of having other people get saved, including himself, he has to go get beer and cigarettes with the tornado.
• 16:11
  Not exactly my idea.
• 16:13
  Of who he is as a man as well.
• 16:15
  You mentioned how they changed, you know, his.
• 16:18
  His father and mother from Krypton in the gun movies, which.
• 16:22
  Yeah, I'm not big on that, if I think what stopped me from revolting completely is that they didn't also do that to man podcast.
• 16:28
  Because they are, in my opinion, and it's not a hot take or anything, why Clark ends up the way he does, because he's raised by them to become the man that he is.
• 16:39
  And that's how you get stuff like a Brightburn or like a Homelander or whatever, where without the influence of people who are good down to the Earth, like loving folk who will take care and love someone who isn't
• 16:53
  there so much, you don't end up with Superman the same way.
• 16:56
  Well, and because, again, you can still change the mythology of Krypton and the elves, and it still.
• 17:04
  I don't, at least in my opinion, doesn't drastically change who Clark becomes and who Superman becomes.
• 17:11
  Because ultimately, whether Jor El is more sinister or he's, you know, more protective and he, you know, wants his son to go do good on another world, he still doesn't really have any kind of relationship with them.
• 17:29
  With them.
• 17:30
  Except for, you know, I bring up the absolute Superman universe.
• 17:33
  That one's a little different because he grows up with Jor El and Laurel in that series.
• 17:38
  But that, again, is a separate continuity, separate world.
• 17:42
  Yes.
• 17:42
  So it's different.
• 17:43
  But.
• 17:43
  But in terms of, like, the mainline Superman, you know, he is only in the same space as Jor El and Laurel when he's a baby, and he only ever interacts with either Jor El as hologram images that are,
• 18:02
  you know, like their consciousness are preserved.
• 18:05
  So they, like, they're, you know, it's.
• 18:08
  Yes.
• 18:09
  They're his biological parents and his background and what he discovers about who he is, that informs his identity, of course.
• 18:18
  But at the same time, you know, Pa and mackenzie are the ones who raise him from the time he's a small child arriving on Earth, and they're the ones teaching him how to be a human and how to
• 18:32
  do good in the world and why he should use his powers.
• 18:36
  So they're the core relationship to him.
• 18:41
  So with that in mind.
• 18:42
  Yeah, I know you mentioned the Animated Series, which, of course, I grew up on as well, but I think thinking about my PODC specifically, I think the 78 movie had a more profound impact on me in terms of
• 18:54
  my intro to them, because.
• 18:55
  Yeah.
• 18:55
  Like, you know, I was quoting it at the beginning of this episode.
• 18:58
  But that scene right before Pocket dies where he gives that speech to Clark really resonated with me.
• 19:06
  I mean, it's a.
• 19:07
  It's.
• 19:07
  What I.
• 19:07
  What I love about the 78 movie is you just have one amazing performance after another, even ones who are only in it for a little bit.
• 19:15
  So Glenn Ford is not in the movie for very long, but.
• 19:18
  But I think he gives a killer performance.
• 19:19
  And in that scene, he tells you who Jonathan Kent is, why he means so much to Clark, why he means so much to Martha.
• 19:28
  And same with the scene after the funeral.
• 19:32
  And Clark, you know, realizes that it's time for him to, you know, find out who he is, discover the origins of his people.
• 19:42
  That goodbye scene between him and Martha and the John Williams score comes on.
• 19:47
  That just gets me every time.
• 19:48
  I think it's just.
• 19:49
  It's a brilliant scene.
• 19:50
  And every time I see an argument for, oh, you can just like, shave off the first, you know, third of the movie and start with Superman and Metropolis.
• 20:01
  I want to throw, you know, a remote at the screen.
• 20:05
  Watching YouTube whenever I hear people say that, because while everyone is entitled to their opinion, I.
• 20:11
  I think, you know, the Smallville scenes, especially in that movie, are crucial.
• 20:15
  So.
• 20:16
  So that was very much one of my first and most impactful interactions with these characters, because I didn't watch Smallville until much later.
• 20:25
  But.
• 20:26
  But like, for you, did you have that kind.
• 20:28
  Whether it was through a movie, a comic, an animated series, did you have, like a scene or a storyline with John and Martha that really resonated with you?
• 20:41
  Yeah.
• 20:42
  I want to say, for.
• 20:44
  I have two separate stories for each one of them.
• 20:46
  And for Pockin, it's gonna be an all star Superman, I think it was issue six.
• 20:52
  And we get some, you know, flashbacks and like, they're, you know, and one of the best Superman stories ever told by Grant Morrison, in my opinion, to kind of showcase, like, who he is, we get an idea of
• 21:02
  who he is through, you know, Jon Kent dying in this process and Superman reflecting upon him and everything that, you know, he did for.
• 21:10
  So that'd be one I'd throw out there for him specifically.
• 21:13
  Then for Ma Kemp, I'd actually throw out more recently.
• 21:17
  Action comics annual 2022.
• 21:19
  And for those not aware, this is in the midst of a story being told about War World and the parallels between Superman and the newest Mongol.
• 21:29
  And we get that with their mothers in the annual, we see Martha Kent and we see Mongol's mother and how they raise each other in different cultures and how they react to different things in her life.
• 21:41
  Like at this point in time, Martha has cancer and is losing her hair and she's trying to put on a bold face for her son.
• 21:48
  At the other point of the spectrum, we get Mongol's mother who is grown up in an environment where, you know, might makes right.
• 21:55
  So Mongol is very soft and she says multiple times over, like, I should have left you to die or something like that.
• 22:00
  You know, it had been better for everyone.
• 22:02
  Survival of the fittest.
• 22:04
  And then eventually getting to the point where he sees her as a weakness because he has affection for kills her versus Superman, sees her as Clark sees affection as a strength and sticks with his mother in the midst
• 22:15
  of a cancer diagnosis and her overcoming it and is an extremely well told story.
• 22:20
  In the midst of an extremely well told story.
• 22:22
  Great pick there.
• 22:23
  Oh, I mean, All Star is just, you know, one of the, like, it has so many great character moments throughout.
• 22:29
  You know, there's the, the iconic scene with him preventing someone from taking their own life.
• 22:36
  And then all the stuff with them and Lois and oh, the Montpack Kent stuff is great.
• 22:40
  Luthor single through his eyes.
• 22:43
  Right, right, exactly.
• 22:44
  Yeah, that gets me.
• 22:46
  Oh, it's beautiful.
• 22:47
  Beautiful.
• 22:48
  And then I think from the comics, Tennis think like, well, there is so one of the times they do the Jon Kent death, but I thought really well is in the Geoff Johns run action comics in the Brainiac
• 23:02
  storyline, storyline, it ends with John Kent passing away.
• 23:07
  And there is this great moment in the epilogue there, if you get the trade paperback that where he's really reflecting on everything he meant to him.
• 23:18
  Because at that point he's been Superman for a long time and fought all these villains and.
• 23:23
  But it's a really harrowing moment for him.
• 23:26
  And then, you know, one of the questions we ask with this series is like, what would in this case Superman look like without these characters?
• 23:36
  And for me, I mean, I'm thinking in some ways they actually did that with the series Superman and Lois, because that show begins with the death of Martha Kent.
• 23:47
  In it, Jonathan dies when Clark is a teenager and then Martha dies at the beginning of the series.
• 23:54
  And this is when Superman, Lotus, Superman and Lois are middle aged, they have two teenage sons, and the death of Martha Kent is the catalyst for them moving back to Smallville.
• 24:07
  And you know, I, I think it's a really fascinating exploration of I, you know, it starts with that.
• 24:14
  But the Martha and John have this thorough line throughout the series, even though there are never really characters there.
• 24:22
  I mean, they come up in flashbacks occasionally, but you see how the values instilled in them play into everything with how.
• 24:35
  Because it's.
• 24:36
  It's very much a family dynamic show.
• 24:38
  And so the way Clark was brought up plays into how he lives as a father and a husband and.
• 24:49
  And, you know, Lois had a very different upbringing and had, you know, very tumultuous relationship with her family, particularly her dad.
• 24:56
  And they explore that dynamic throughout the show.
• 24:59
  So I think it's one of the best ways of looking at what would Superman look like without his parents.
• 25:08
  But, you know, in the sense of, okay, he's lived with them and then, you know, they pass away and he now has to go on without them.
• 25:16
  I think that series is an excellent look at that.
• 25:19
  And then going back to Smallville as well has, I think, one of the best interpretations of John and Martha Kent because they're, you know, key characters throughout the series.
• 25:30
  They didn't.
• 25:31
  And.
• 25:31
  And by the time that they do, by the time Jon Kent dies in that series and then Martha leaves as a regular later on, it just feels like something's missing from the show at that point because they were
• 25:42
  so integral and it's a coming of age series and, you know, they have so many great interactions.
• 25:49
  But.
• 25:50
  Yeah, I know that's a bit of a rambling there, but.
• 25:52
  But I wanted to bring up those two examples because they're kind of spiritual successors to one another.
• 25:57
  Yeah, but for you.
• 25:59
  Yeah, like a.
• 26:01
  All right, well, can you think of any examples where they have done.
• 26:04
  Well, I guess Red sun would be one where they, you know, I was.
• 26:07
  Just about to bring it up.
• 26:08
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:10
  So do you want to tell listeners a little bit about that story?
• 26:13
  Because in many ways it does answer, what if Clark had a very different upbringing?
• 26:18
  If we're sticking to D.C.
• 26:19
  for this, we see several examples.
• 26:22
  Red.
• 26:23
  Red something, one of them.
• 26:24
  And instead of being found by this common down to earth American family, Superman is found.
• 26:29
  But it's down to earth Soviet family in the midst of the Cold War.
• 26:32
  And he grows up with communist values there that at that same time he's raised by two loving parents, but under different societal and cultural rules which he conflicts within.
• 26:43
  In a story.
• 26:44
  It's like he recognizes facets of like, say a more American, you know, capitalistic, conservative kind of life in that sense, and even the liberal side of sense in that series and goes, okay, well, which one is right?
• 26:56
  Which one is wrong?
• 26:56
  Is it right for me to take over this entire world, you know, with the backing of my leaders here on the Soviet spectrum, but becoming a better man through the process being raised by two separate people.
• 27:07
  I can't remember their names for the story, but they serve the purpose of M.A.
• 27:10
  And P.
• 27:11
  Kent.
• 27:12
  In the Nail Elseworlds series, there's a moment where instead of finding his spacecraft, I think a nail punctures the tire of H.A.
• 27:23
  Kent's truck and that causes them to completely miss it.
• 27:27
  And as a result, he's raised by an Amish family instead.
• 27:29
  So we.
• 27:30
  There's an entire world.
• 27:31
  He's still raised by good and loving parents who have this.
• 27:34
  They don't have the need to get out into the world as opposed to, like Vaughn Pocket would do.
• 27:38
  Like, they're very insular in a very Amish way.
• 27:41
  So superhuman society is negatively impacted by it.
• 27:44
  Like, I think Batman loses all of his sidekicks to the Joker and bad things happen because of that.
• 27:51
  And the whole metahuman, superhuman thing is viewed very negatively by most people because they don't have someone like Superman who's willing to be up and out and out there and show like, no, this is who we could be.
• 28:01
  And, you know, eventually explore this.
• 28:03
  Something that happened, like, 20 years ago.
• 28:05
  He does eventually be forced into the position of showing himself to the world, but it is still built on similar values to Mom Pa Kent.
• 28:12
  But the key difference is he doesn't engage with world until it's too late.
• 28:16
  Some would argue.
• 28:17
  No, it's A Red sun is a great example.
• 28:19
  Like, I mean, there's that.
• 28:21
  That one has both the comic and then the animated movie.
• 28:24
  But, you know, that's a great example.
• 28:26
  I'm thinking too, about Absolute Superman because again, this is very, you know, outwards now.
• 28:31
  But this one is really interesting because in that storyline, which you should definitely check out, check out the Absolute Universe, if you're not reading it, is amazing.
• 28:41
  But.
• 28:42
  But in that one, Kal El is actually raised by Jor El Norell.
• 28:47
  He spends a lot more time on Krypton in that universe.
• 28:51
  He comes to Earth much later.
• 28:52
  And it's not so much that he's actually raised by John and Martha.
• 28:57
  He is a wanderer for, like a nomad for a long time.
• 29:02
  And then eventually does stumble into Krypton.
• 29:05
  And he's taken in by them, but not so much raised from.
• 29:09
  Because he's already, like, teenager by that point.
• 29:13
  And so he spends a period of time with them.
• 29:17
  And this is how.
• 29:18
  When he starts to learn how to communicate on Earth and he has this, like, AI companion.
• 29:25
  And it's still.
• 29:26
  I would say the characterization there of the Kent is still very similar.
• 29:31
  And I think what's really interesting here is that while he's not raised by them and he doesn't spend nearly as much time with them, he sees the humanity in them in just that short period of time.
• 29:45
  And that's why he stays in touch.
• 29:46
  And later on in, spoiler alert.
• 29:49
  But like, when Martha gets dementia, he still goes and visits her and.
• 29:55
  And it, you know, eventually he.
• 29:56
  I think I said Krypton.
• 29:57
  Or I can.
• 29:58
  I meant to say Smallville.
• 29:59
  I'm a Kansas.
• 30:00
  But, like, again, I forewarned everyone about word vomit earlier, but.
• 30:06
  But, yes, he draws it back to Kansas eventually.
• 30:09
  And I just really love that because, yeah, he has a very different origin story, but even though he has a shorter amount of time with the Kents and he sees what makes them so special and learns because he.
• 30:25
  He's exposed to the best and worst of humanity early on, particularly with the worst of the xenophobia.
• 30:34
  And the Peacemaker is going around on patrol.
• 30:37
  You know, he's mostly feared and hated.
• 30:39
  And then once he gets to the Kent, they take him in and show him what love and compassion look like.
• 30:45
  So I really like all that.
• 30:48
  But, yeah, yeah, absolute Superman is really good in that aspect because it could have easily, easily been one of those things where it was just grim, dark nonsense all the time, because you look at the actual origins of
• 31:00
  that universe as a place twisted by the desires of Darkseid to kind of prove like his ideals and the like.
• 31:06
  And yet Google never triumph over evil.
• 31:08
  And yet, despite all that, there are good people out there.
• 31:13
  Even though, despite the caste system of Krypton, Jor and Laurel are loving to their son and showing him how to resist evil.
• 31:22
  And then, of course, we get to the mom pocket of it all, like you said.
• 31:24
  And despite everything that's happened to them in a world that is twisted beyond comprehension, to our eyes and ears, they're still them.
• 31:31
  So that means that regardless of changes you can make, you can't change everything because there will still be those out there who fight, you know, against that darkness.
• 31:40
  And, you know, it's not really focused on too much, especially now, because, you know, Christians aren't exactly big friends of people of certain comic writers.
• 31:48
  But Ma and Pa Kent, historically speaking in canon, are Methodists.
• 31:52
  And that is part of why they are who they are is their religious faith, which they then imparted upon Superman.
• 31:58
  And you won't find many writers willing to bring that up because they don't like it.
• 32:03
  So.
• 32:03
  Right, I'll throw that in there.
• 32:05
  Oh, no, it's a great point.
• 32:06
  And I think, like, it, you know, it's.
• 32:09
  It's alluded to in macerays, but not talking about as much as, say, you know, like, Matt Murdock's Catholicism or something like that, like, but it is really an integral part of Clark's upbringing.
• 32:21
  And, you know, I like absolute Superman.
• 32:23
  I remember when I read the first issue, I thought, like, I mean, it was really interesting, but I thought, oh, this is going to be a really, like, dark take on Superman and he's going to go.
• 32:32
  And I was really impressed by how the storytelling evolved and how it eventually brought in the Kents.
• 32:38
  And I thought just at the right time, because again, he sees, you know, two different sides of humanity and his exposure to the loving, compassionate, kind had a profound impact on him.
• 32:49
  So awesome.
• 32:50
  Yeah, yeah.
• 32:51
  And thinking about this too, are there any.
• 32:55
  Is there anyone in your life who you think kind of like is reminiscent, similar to Man Pocket or, you know, reflects their values?
• 33:05
  Yeah, I mean, my maternal grandparents, not say my paternal grandparents are bad in comparison, but, like, they feel a little more linked in this particular discussion or always super focused on, you know, loving me.
• 33:19
  Well, loving the grandkids.
• 33:20
  Well, you know, instilling good values in me, you know, taking me out to do things and having fun with each other.
• 33:27
  And it's one of the greatest tragedies of my life that they're no longer here anymore because I lost a huge part of that in that, you know, my grandfather is a storyteller.
• 33:36
  He will make up anything for the sake of entertaining people.
• 33:39
  It has nothing to do with reality whatsoever.
• 33:41
  But I love that we see aspects of that depending on who's writing podcast, of course, my Kent, my grandmother.
• 33:49
  I'm very closely aligned, looking after people, making sure things are done right.
• 33:53
  You know, if something goes wrong, who's the first person to step up and make things better?
• 33:57
  It's going to be a woman like her.
• 33:59
  I enjoy that, you know, certain aspects of my parents as well throw in there, you know, in different ways because they're not one to one analogies, but they're very close enough where, you know, they were raised by their
• 34:07
  parents a certain way, you know, to instill values.
• 34:09
  And my dad and my mother learned, okay, that's how they did it.
• 34:12
  How do we do it instead?
• 34:13
  You know, I was their first child, so now they have to learn, okay, I'm the test tube.
• 34:16
  What?
• 34:17
  Not test tube, sorry, that I'm the guinea pig was the word I was looking for that they had to figure out.
• 34:22
  How do we do this?
• 34:23
  We have A human being we're responsible for now that presently was not here except in a womb, you know, still very much alive there.
• 34:29
  But now he's out and about, and he needs food, he needs protection.
• 34:32
  He needs to be told what to do.
• 34:33
  And that's very much what they faced in the same way, except, you know, they didn't, you know, mock.
• 34:38
  It didn't carry Clark, but she might as well have with as much care and affection she gives him.
• 34:42
  I think I'm gonna say test tube the next time.
• 34:45
  I mean to say guinea pig.
• 34:46
  I.
• 34:47
  This is the beauty of being exhausted during a recording.
• 34:51
  We come up with gems like that.
• 34:52
  So no need to apologize that at all.
• 34:55
  But, yeah, but, but no, I love that.
• 34:56
  And I think.
• 34:57
  I mean, for me, I think I also think of my maternal grandparents as well.
• 35:00
  Like, my grandmother passed away last year, but my grandmother is, like, is still alive and well.
• 35:06
  And, like, I.
• 35:07
  I think of her very much as, like, ma Kent, and also, like, specifically Rosemary Harris aunt May.
• 35:14
  Like, I mean, like, the comparisons there are, like, because, like, I mean, in that one, I mean, you know, there is a lot of similarities to those two characters.
• 35:24
  But, but, like, I.
• 35:26
  She has that kind of, like, you know, very caring maternal instinct and also can be very blunt and.
• 35:32
  And protective when she needs to.
• 35:35
  But, yeah, no, I, I, I see a lot of the Mon Po traits in a lot of my family members, like grandparents, my parents, like, I mean, just that kind of, like, you know, compassion and honesty and, like,
• 35:49
  you know, work ethic.
• 35:50
  All of that very much comes into play in family members, you know, so.
• 35:56
  So I think the cool thing about these characters, you don't even have to be raised on a farm in Kansas, like, to relate to the values and the character traits that these ones exemplify.
• 37:10
  Absolutely.
• 37:11
  So, yeah, yeah, sometimes feels like the cooking aspect I just kind of thought of while we were talking.
• 37:17
  Yeah.
• 37:19
  Obviously, you can't smell or taste anything written or drawn in a comic panel, but there have been times where I look at something, a meal that my Kent has displayed for her family, and I go, man, I can
• 37:29
  smell and taste that, because I've had that meal before because of what my grandmother did.
• 37:33
  And one of her ways of loving and affection showing that was through cooking.
• 37:37
  And that woman could cook massively.
• 37:39
  It's like, oh, man, it feels good.
• 37:41
  Oh, it's the best.
• 37:42
  I mean, Southern cooking cannot be.
• 37:45
  Yeah, I love it.
• 37:46
  It ain't for your health, but, you.
• 37:48
  Know, but say at the same time, my, like, great grandmother lived to, like, 97 and she ate Southern cooking her entire life.
• 37:58
  So I.
• 37:59
  I'm not entirely convinced it's a death sentence.
• 38:03
  But yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:05
  With.
• 38:05
  With everything here, too.
• 38:06
  I think the.
• 38:06
  The kids are kind of like the ultimate nature versus nurture argument in comic form with everything going on there.
• 38:13
  Because, you know, I list a couple like, you know, you know, Brightburn, you.
• 38:19
  Goodness gracious.
• 38:19
  What's the.
• 38:20
  Was like supreme or something like that where.
• 38:23
  Oh, are you talking about the Mark Waid one?
• 38:27
  Yeah, whatever that one's called.
• 38:31
  I should know because I've read all that, but I'll think of it in a minute.
• 38:33
  But yeah, and you have like, well, how do we create an anti Superman?
• 38:37
  Well, you can't have Mom Pocket, because if you do, they're going to raise him a certain way.
• 38:41
  They're going to love him a certain way that leads into the Clark Kent.
• 38:44
  We love the Superman that we love.
• 38:46
  So removing them from the equation means you have to make things worse for your Superman figure in that story.
• 38:52
  And I think that's a huge credit to them.
• 38:54
  Even though, like, yeah, there's not really, like, too many comics where we see it see.
• 38:57
  But their perspectives.
• 38:58
  But we have enough to know without you here.
• 39:01
  We don't have the man of Steel that we have come to love and know.
• 39:04
  Yeah.
• 39:05
  Irredeemable is.
• 39:06
  I don't know if that's the one you were thinking.
• 39:08
  Thank you.
• 39:08
  Yeah.
• 39:09
  Which.
• 39:09
  That's a really good one.
• 39:10
  I.
• 39:10
  I do.
• 39:11
  I like that, actually better than a lot of the, like, darker Superman stories.
• 39:15
  But.
• 39:15
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:16
  And that's one of the things.
• 39:17
  I tend to hate stories like that because it.
• 39:21
  Sometimes it just feels like you're doing it for the sake of being edgy or because wouldn't it be interesting if we did a negative.
• 39:26
  Negative Superman, as it were?
• 39:28
  Well, not to me, because that's kind of the point of Superman.
• 39:31
  Is he supposed to be the best of us?
• 39:33
  He's supposed to be, you know, the one who does things because it's the right thing to do.
• 39:37
  And when you twist that and corrupt that, when you go the injustice route, you know, fun fighting game.
• 39:43
  I'm not good at fighting games, but the story kind of breaks me a bit.
• 39:47
  Oh, he went evil because the Joker nuked Metropolis and killed Lois Lane.
• 39:51
  Okay.
• 39:52
  Kind of a really bad day.
• 39:53
  But I don't even.
• 39:54
  Still, I don't think Superman will fall to those deaths.
• 39:56
  Sure, sure.
• 39:57
  Yeah, no, it's.
• 39:58
  Okay, Fine.
• 39:59
  And I think this is what makes these characters so essential to the Supermanthology, because, like, you said when you remove them that's what you get with all the anti Superman stories and different interpretation and even something like Red
• 40:12
  sun where he still loving parents but it's a different ideology and you know that creates something so yeah.
• 40:19
  Awesome.
• 40:20
  Well Christian, I this has been a great discussion.
• 40:22
  I'm glad we were still able to hopefully produce something coherent.
• 40:27
  I don't know.
• 40:28
  We'll let listeners be the judge of that.
• 40:30
  Or maybe they're just like these guys suck.
• 40:32
  They needed.
• 40:32
  They should have taken off this week but.
• 40:35
  But well, you know, hey, give us your honest feedback in the comments.
• 40:39
  We would love to hear from you.
• 40:42
  Be brutal if you want.
• 40:45
  Hey we still, we still love and so rate and review.
• 40:49
  We would love to hear from you also Christian, do you have a recommendation you want to share?
• 40:57
  I'm in a negative mood so I'm going to give an anti recommendation.
• 41:01
  Okay.
• 41:03
  I got hoodwinked into watching the live action Snow White from Disney and oh God, viewers have heard my opinions.
• 41:10
  I'm not a big live action Disney guy because I, I don't like seeing those in live action.
• 41:16
  You lose a bit of the.
• 41:18
  The spirit as it were.
• 41:19
  There's another word but I'm too tired.
• 41:22
  And that most definitely had no spirit, had no soul in its entirety.
• 41:27
  If one of the things they wanted to say.
• 41:29
  I remember there was controversy wherever going.
• 41:31
  I couldn't care less what people think before I watch a movie was the whole like, you know, it's a feminist, no white.
• 41:36
  It's like she's going to stand up for herself and like, you know, if I was a woman I would be so very offended that someone thought that this is what I wanted in a media, you know, I can't
• 41:44
  speak as a woman but you know, if I were to put myself in someone's shoes, that is absolute trash.
• 41:49
  And I'm sorry to end on such a note, but I still feeling feelings I felt a couple hours ago.
• 41:55
  I mean that's fair.
• 41:55
  I'm impressed you actually watch.
• 41:57
  I had to watch it with my niece like whenever I came to Disney.
• 42:00
  I think that was last year.
• 42:02
  And yeah, I mean I'm glad she was not into it for long because I was.
• 42:07
  I mean I'll sit through a lot with her and my nephews, but that one was miserable.
• 42:14
  So yeah, no, soulless is very much the right word.
• 42:19
  Well, I'll try to say I'll leave it on a more positive note.
• 42:24
  So I do.
• 42:25
  I know I've talked about it before, but the DC Studios showcase podcast is back now, currently going on season two.
• 42:33
  It's hosted by Frankie Smith and Koi Jondreau.
• 42:39
  They're two really great YouTubers.
• 42:40
  And yeah, if you want a really good insight into the world of dc, they interview a lot of comic creators.
• 42:46
  They interview actors, directors and, and it's just like really fun.
• 42:50
  And it's like, you know, obviously it's more positive because it's you know, on HBO and like a owned by dc.
• 42:57
  But I like that it never veers into PR territory.
• 43:01
  It's genuinely entertaining discussions and they ask really great questions when they have interview guests on.
• 43:07
  So I really like it.
• 43:08
  You can also get it on YouTube.
• 43:10
  You don't even have to subscribe to HBO to check that out.
• 43:13
  So highly recommend that.
• 43:16
  Also we do have a bonus question for anyone who is a fourth wall subscriber.
• 43:22
  So this is an exclusive for that website but if you want to become a subscriber you can click on the link.
• 43:30
  So the bonus question is what is a Superman story that you from the comics that you would really like to see adapted in either tv, film or animation.
• 43:43
  So that's the one we will be covering for bonus members in just a bit.
• 43:49
  Again, thank you so much everyone for listening rate and review the show whenever, wherever you are listening and checking out our YouTube channel.
• 43:58
  Also want to thank out thank another one of our subscribers, Aaron Hardy.
• 44:04
  Thank you so much for your support.
• 44:06
  We really appreciate it.
• 44:08
  And again check out the cool merch we have.
• 44:13
  You know we got a lot of cool stuff.
• 44:14
  So we really appreciate all the support at System Systematic Ecology.
• 44:20
  Thank you for bearing with me and Christian tonight.
• 44:23
  We, we still had a lot of fun but we are also exhausted.
• 44:26
  So yeah, it's the weekend, let's go have a good time.
• 44:30
  But, but on that note, remember we are all a chosen people, a geekdom of priests.