Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / Somatic leadership for founders: Owen Marcus on stress, presence, and performance

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Somatic leadership for founders: Owen Marcus on stress, presence, and performance · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

0:00
Welcome back to AI for Founders. I'm Ryan Estes.
0:02
Today's guest is Owen Marcus, Co founder of MELD, a men's
0:06
leadership community built on 50 years of work in somatic
0:09
psychology and group practice. Owen started his first men's
0:12
group 20 years ago, and today more than 500 men have gone
0:16
through his programs. In this episode, we'll go deep
0:19
into how founders and executives can tap their bodies
0:22
intelligence, not just their head, to lead with presence,
0:26
resilience, and emotional clarity.
0:28
You'll learn why most high performers burnout when they
0:31
rely on only intellect, how somatic awareness can retrain
0:34
your nervous system, and how community connection can
0:37
literally rewire stress into strength.
0:40
If you're a founder, CEO or builder who feels the weight of
0:43
leadership, this conversation is for you.
0:46
Big stories, big breakthroughs and practical tools you can
0:48
apply immediately. Let's go but for some business.
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All right, we're running. Oh, and how are you, Sir?
2:45
Great, Ryan. Fantastic.
2:47
Now I've had the, the great pleasure of talking to you a few
2:50
times prior to, to this call, which is which is rare.
2:53
A lot of times like I'm just starting to get to know somebody
2:55
on a, on a podcast interview, which you got to cover a lot of
2:59
ground real fast. But I feel like I know a little
3:01
bit about you and I've definitely done a lot of
3:03
research on you and your company.
3:04
So I, I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
3:07
Why don't we get started by just doing an introduction to your
3:10
career, the work you're doing, and how that pertains on this
3:14
project right now? I got involved in a lot of this
3:18
really 50 years ago right after college.
3:20
I ended up in Boulder, Co got involved in somatics, which is
3:24
body body work, body psychotherapy, ended up moving
3:28
to Scottsdale, AZ ended up creating a small integrated
3:31
medical clinic. One thing led to another.
3:34
About 30 years ago, I started working with men A primarily
3:38
because I needed I started men's groups and one thing led to
3:41
another. 20 years ago, I really decided to change the model of
3:45
traditional men's group and men's work and bring in more the
3:48
somatic training and skills I was using in my clinic that was
3:54
having great success. I didn't know if men would go
3:57
for it and it really took off. That group 20 years later has
4:00
expanded to be over 500 guys in that group that's participated
4:04
in that group or 60 current guys.
4:07
And even though I moved away, I'm still involved as a Zoom
4:11
group for some of the expats. But at all that created three
4:16
businesses this meld, this is my excuse me, current business.
4:20
And what we're doing is using the somatic and that what we
4:26
call the communal, just how guys interact when they're in a
4:29
emotionally safe space, be virtually alive to connect and
4:34
develop these skills that we never had.
4:36
And now I'm actually using AI to facilitate some of those skill
4:41
development. Amazing.
4:44
I love that. Now I'm going to come back to
4:46
Boulder 50 years ago, but I want to stick here for a moment.
4:50
I, I, I saw a great quote where you talked about leading bottom
4:54
up via Physiology, not top down via intellect, which might play
4:58
into some of the somatic kind of techniques you may, you're
5:00
talking about. Now for a lot of us, kind of
5:03
having rooting our leadership style in our body seems like
5:07
almost, Nope, might not even understand what you're talking
5:10
about at all. So give us an introduction to
5:13
kind of this kind of thought process or this kind of area of
5:16
study. Yeah, I was probably the most
5:21
antisthesis of that approach as any guy could because I was so
5:25
tense or uptight and disconnected or disassociated.
5:29
So as we develop this somatic or body awareness, we open up our
5:34
ability to use some inherent tools.
5:37
I mean some of the more common ones we think of as intuition.
5:42
This ability to create emotionally safe places and this
5:46
ability to actually be more connected to some of our deeper
5:51
resources and and out of that create more fulfilling careers,
5:55
which so a lot of my work I do are with is with entrepreneurs
5:59
and C level executives, sharp guys, because I generally work
6:04
with men. And what's happened is they've
6:07
come to a point where they're intellect and all the tools I
6:10
use is not creating what they want.
6:13
And a big part of that is getting them more connected to
6:17
that somatic experience. So what happens is that for most
6:21
of us, we get stressed out and we leave our body.
6:25
So when we start experience our Physiology and we can talk about
6:29
what that is, we're innately telling ourselves that we're
6:32
safe, we start to down regulate a stress indices or biomarkers
6:37
start to go down and we actually become more effective.
6:40
Yeah. You know, one thing, and I've
6:43
been studying this too for for a little bit of time, you know,
6:47
and when it really started speaking to me was the
6:49
understanding that all of us have a certain amount of stasis.
6:53
And that might be a happiness stasis, that might be a
6:55
peacefulness stasis. But even on the extremes of the
6:58
main, we tend to return to what your natural balance is, even to
7:02
the point of like quadriplegics, you know, quadriplegics at once
7:06
they've kind of recovered from their industry and understood or
7:08
in injury and understand what's going on with them.
7:11
Their level of happiness isn't that much more variable.
7:13
But then before they had use of all their extremities.
7:16
So that's to say that like, whatever happens to us, we're
7:19
generally going to come back to a, a, a static position of
7:23
relative happiness, we'll call it.
7:25
Now with the, the techniques, you know, that might take 10
7:28
years to a beginner, it might take five years to somebody
7:31
intermediate, it might take five months, it might take 5 weeks, 5
7:35
days, 5 minutes, 5 seconds. Like if you really kind of can
7:39
it become adept in some of these techniques, then that recovery
7:42
to stasis happens much more dramatically.
7:45
And correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of like kind of this somatic
7:49
practice is a kind of a practice of noting how things emerge in
7:52
your body. So for me, I'm kind of a classic
7:55
guy. I go from zero to hot in like
7:57
one second and I'm pissed. And now I'm upset that I'm
8:00
pissed. Well, as opposed to like being
8:02
upset that I'm upset, I can say like, how does the anger feel in
8:06
my body? Well, it feels like a heat on my
8:08
cheeks. It feels like some kind of blood
8:11
sensation in my traps. It feels like a a narrower field
8:16
of view, like a predation field of view.
8:18
And as I kind of become more aware of like these kind of like
8:22
sensations, then I become more aware as when they go away,
8:26
like, OK, actually now I feel a little cooler in my face and I
8:29
feel a little bit more loose in my in my shoulders.
8:31
So that you can literally tell as your kind of emotional state
8:35
is changing, so do you. Is that kind of a fair
8:38
assessment, at least with this one little aspect of like, what
8:42
kind of bringing somatic awareness to like emotional
8:45
regulation looks? Like, yeah, it's right on.
8:47
You're ahead of the curve for most of us guys.
8:50
I would add three things to that.
8:51
One, as you sort of inferred, it's hard to let go with
8:55
something until you know you have hold of it and then you can
8:57
let go of it. And so, you know, or you feel
9:00
that your body's tense, oh, my body's tense.
9:02
And just being aware of it starts to relax it.
9:05
Often you don't have to do anything other than being aware.
9:07
So your body relaxes and your stress state goes down and you
9:10
become more resilient as you described, which is what we
9:13
want. So if we're more resilient,
9:15
we're, you know, we have more access to more skills.
9:21
We're not at effective situations for people.
9:23
We can be more responsive and engaging.
9:26
And the third thing is you keep doing that.
9:28
And I'm sure you've seen that, Ryan, you retrain your nervous
9:31
system, your body. We talked about neuroplasticity
9:34
and it's like we, we reinforce certain neural paths and which
9:40
you could say for a lot of guys, it's the stress neuropaths.
9:43
And by doing what you're doing, you're the hard wiring is there.
9:47
But by using those pathways, you start to reinforce it.
9:52
So actually your stasis, your baseline changes.
9:57
And over time, and I've seen it so certainly myself, but
9:59
thousands of guys, over time, their baseline changes.
10:03
And so they go from an allostatic state, which is a
10:07
chronic stress state, to a more default, a relaxed state.
10:14
And it's an extraordinary feeling the the I'll just speak
10:18
personally on my own kind of journey in this is that like, I
10:21
think like finding these kind of abnormal areas of consciousness
10:25
and only abnormal because it's different from what I was used
10:28
to. You know, for me, it was just
10:30
like it more than it was stress or depression or anxiety.
10:33
My thing was anger, just like just, oh, like an animal, you
10:37
know? So if that's your basis, any
10:39
kind of anything outside of that mean is gonna feel abnormal.
10:43
So for me it was like, wow, I have a, a place in me that's
10:47
always there. That is kind of, how would I
10:51
describe it, like relaxed. It feels, there's like a cool
10:56
essence to it. Not like cool like Miles Davis,
10:59
but like actually kind of colder.
11:02
It has like a, a steady abiding, you know, feeling to it.
11:07
And I, I, I love it. I really kind of after, you
11:10
know, I've been a meditator, I think since a teenager, but
11:12
didn't really get to the heart of it until about 10 years ago.
11:16
And so like started to discover some of these attributes.
11:18
Now what's interesting too is that nothing, everything
11:20
changes, right? I mean, it's at the kind of core
11:22
of this stuff. So I, you, I'll lose it, you
11:25
know, that kind of connection to that process, you'll lose it and
11:29
I'll be like angry again. I'll have stress.
11:31
I'll have all the stuff going on and I got to keep coming back.
11:35
Now what what I've always thought like in my own personal
11:38
study is I've really benefited from the folks that have come
11:42
before me like you, you know, that I've introduced a lot of
11:45
these kind of more maybe more Eastern, more esoteric
11:49
traditions, brought them to the West, found kind of scientific
11:53
validity and then created community around it.
11:56
So for me, early on, it was important to have kind of
11:58
scientific basis for some of these studies and practices,
12:01
because that's just the language I speak, you know, So and then
12:05
to create community around it, because otherwise you're much
12:08
more likely and actually you just, you're going to slip into
12:11
those old patterns of thought because that's just who you are.
12:15
You know, you really need people around you that are encouraging
12:18
you, that are kind of challenging you maybe a little
12:20
bit. And, you know, when I see
12:22
organizations like you've built, I, I just, I'm so grateful for
12:25
it. On one side, maybe you can talk
12:27
about like some of the resistance maybe early on and
12:30
maybe how that's changed as as now it seems like mental health
12:34
concerns and like particularly like finding proactive, positive
12:38
ways to treat mental health has really kind of become to the the
12:41
the front of of culture and society right now.
12:44
Yeah, I mean, there's, I said, I mean, I'm sort of been in this
12:47
thing quite a few years. I've seen a few trends change
12:52
and one was a whole healthcare thing and now it's more holistic
12:55
than ever and and healthy foods and all the things down that
12:58
track. But we're starting to see the
13:00
same thing happening with mental health.
13:03
So we're all sort of educated around these psychological terms
13:07
and, and I think they're actually overused and often
13:09
generalized and misunderstood. But the upside is we're aware of
13:13
it. And now some of the leading
13:15
therapies with emotional focused therapy SC or semantic
13:19
experiencing are really going into the core of, you know, how
13:23
we need connection, the attachment theory, and also how
13:26
our physical body really determines our emotional
13:29
experience. And so there's a lot of research
13:33
coming out around that, particularly around trauma.
13:36
And 50 years ago, Well, sure, 50 years ago, I ended up starting
13:40
with and became friends with Peter Levine, which is literally
13:44
the guy that wrote the book on trauma and how to use the body
13:48
to get rid of trauma. And that and that's really
13:51
getting rid of trauma is getting rid of stress.
13:53
And now there's a lot of science, Steven Porges and
13:56
polyvagal theory, which basically says that, you know,
13:59
we have this ability where we're wired to down regulate our
14:04
stress or even trauma response when we connect, which is what
14:07
you're saying, Ryan, when we have community.
14:09
And I saw the power of, you know, these men's groups where
14:13
they're safe, they're consistent and just guys being together
14:16
where they're not bullshitting, they're just being real, being
14:19
authentic. And that's actually a lot easier
14:22
than we think it would be when the situation is right over time
14:26
retrains not just our mind and our body, but our whole nervous
14:30
system, we learn as therapists would call a secure attachment,
14:35
how to really connect to someone.
14:36
And because it's an innate skill that we lost.
14:39
But again, we're hardwired for Once we learn it, we keep it and
14:43
it starts to generalize, as you've probably seen into other
14:46
relationships at home and then at business.
14:50
And so a huge part of learning this is having a community, be
14:56
it a group or a bigger community, that really supports
14:59
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Yeah, yeah. And there's some challenges
17:08
baked in, you know, the the therapeutic groups of men that
17:11
I've always had in my life. Very lucky hunting parties,
17:15
bands I grew up playing in bands without with your Bros, sports
17:20
teams, jiu jitsu, training partners like these kind of like
17:24
hyper masculine type activities. Now what comes aside with that
17:28
with all my friends is a shit talking culture where my the way
17:35
my friends know that you really love them is you're mercilessly
17:39
tearing them down at all times. So part I've had when I've done
17:45
maybe a little bit more emotive connecting, like I like
17:47
meditation groups with folks. And I'm also like rather I would
17:51
say a social kind of jokey kind of person is all kind of come
17:55
into something like that and like want to start riffing jokes
17:57
and it's just not an appropriate place for it.
18:00
How do you create kind of a safe spot for men where they feel
18:03
comfortable being men, but like there isn't the tension that you
18:06
have some like predatory dude like me that's waiting to crack
18:10
some stupid joke at at all seconds.
18:13
That's a great question. You know, be a group or be a,
18:19
you know, one of the trainings we do, we have a set of
18:21
agreements like first confidentiality and then you
18:25
don't have to do anything. You can just sit there.
18:27
You can participate at any level you want.
18:29
And you know, I tease these guys, they say we're changing
18:32
the rules and engagement here. And so you get COO, you get
18:35
acknowledged for your vulnerability, the ability to be
18:38
authentic. And so I've, you know, I've LED
18:41
trainings of over 60 guys. We'll have a big circle.
18:45
And, you know, some of the staff would model this check in, which
18:48
is say your name, what you're feeling in your body and you
18:51
know, maybe where you're hearing me 30 seconds.
18:54
And I encourage these guys to be real, to be honest, to be
18:57
vulnerable. And if you guys will do the
18:59
usual thing, then one guy will go take a deep breath and you
19:03
reveal something that we normally wouldn't reveal in
19:05
those situations that you describe.
19:07
But he takes the risk. And then what happens is he
19:10
realizes and everyone else realizes it shifts.
19:14
Rather than being shamed or teased or joke that or whatever,
19:19
the opposite happens. He's honored.
19:21
And then, you know, guys, we're competitive.
19:24
And so the next 50 guys, they start competing.
19:27
Well, if Ryan could do that, I could be more vulnerable.
19:30
Oh, if Joe can do it, I could be more vulnerable.
19:33
And you know, 60 guys by the end, we get guys crying and, you
19:37
know, it's like, wow, you know, I haven't had this experience
19:40
since I was a kid. I mean, and so it really doesn't
19:43
take much for us guys when, when the situation, the container is
19:48
safe, one guy just shows or proves that it's safe because
19:52
we're hard wired for this kind of connection.
19:54
You know, back 10,000 years when we lived in the tribe, we got in
19:58
hunting parties, we, you know, we'd be real.
20:01
And, and we work with vets, We worked with a lot of special OPS
20:05
guys and those guys in particular really get this
20:08
because their lives depend on each other.
20:11
And that depends on do you have my back and I trust you.
20:16
And I remember once we were working with a Special Forces
20:19
team, and the medics said my goal in my life is to give my
20:24
life to my brothers. And he, yeah, he was serious.
20:29
I mean, that was his, you know? That's his goal.
20:31
That's his. Goal and a huge honor, but that
20:34
represents what I think is in all of us is men.
20:38
We honor is really important giving in that maybe not that
20:42
extreme way, but authentic connection.
20:45
We hunger for that and we get guys literally coming to us
20:48
because you know, they say I don't have any real friends
20:51
after school or the military. I I got a lot of friends but I
20:55
can't be real with any of them. Yeah, yeah.
20:59
And there's real with words and then there's real with like
21:02
actions and stuff. I, I always graduate, graduated
21:05
towards martial arts and things like that because I don't know
21:08
if it's just the English blood in me, but I got a real
21:10
ferocity, you know what I mean? There's a certain amount of just
21:13
like absolute baked in fire that's in me.
21:17
And that needs to find a, a way to be harmonized in some
21:19
capacity. You know, I, I think, you know,
21:23
as I was coming up, it was like it, it, I really had an
21:26
opportunity to use it all the time because the world just
21:28
seemed very threatening and it was to, to me all the time.
21:31
So over time I had to learn how to like tune down the, the
21:35
ferocity in certain aspects. Particularly I was kind of
21:38
joking about humor, but that was, that's a way you can be
21:40
very ferocious passive aggressively to, to lose your
21:44
friends. But on the other side of that,
21:46
there's a way to like win friends with humor.
21:48
And I really learned that from the Lakotas.
21:52
You know, when I was a teenager, I just got, you know, they let
21:55
this white boy from Denver go hang with them and all their
21:58
ceremonies in South Dakota was awesome.
22:00
I loved it. But the Lakotas have like, a
22:03
very great sense of humor, you know, and often times it's
22:07
gallows humor. But like, it's also there's a
22:09
sweetness and tenderness about it that that I, I learned from.
22:13
It was like, oh, OK, you don't have to say the absolute worst
22:16
thing to somebody. No, no.
22:18
And, you know, I'm, I worked for a lot of the indigenous tribes
22:24
lineages. And yeah, there's, there's a
22:27
certain sense of love and appreciation in their humor, but
22:30
that just naturally happens in our groups and our trainings.
22:33
You know, I didn't think I he's that I had a sense of humor.
22:37
And so until I started doing these groups, and I'm the guy
22:40
who's cutting up most, but, you know, it's an honoring.
22:45
And, you know, because I was sort of like you, I was brought
22:49
up where, you know, I was competitive and my humor was
22:52
cutting. And then I realized that it was
22:54
cutting. It was like, oh, shit, I'm not
22:55
going to do that anymore. And I had to learn just how to
22:58
be myself. And.
23:00
And that's what we learn in these groups.
23:01
And we get guys that never had a sense of humor, and they just
23:04
start loosening up and they start engaging.
23:07
And part of natural engagement, particularly for men, is humor.
23:12
Yeah. Yeah, that's how we make light
23:14
of like something that's horrible.
23:18
Yeah. Well, I, I'd love to hear from
23:19
your experience too, because you've spoken just to like
23:22
dozens, dozens, dozens, hundreds of men in different situations
23:26
really to the thread that unites like men in their careers.
23:29
So you, you know, you, you work with founders, you work with
23:32
people high on the, the kind of like executive org chart.
23:36
You work with probably people that are just, you know,
23:38
householders, you know, what are kind of the threads that are
23:41
common between all these folks and maybe where are their unique
23:44
challenges depending on kind of your profession?
23:47
Well, I think the most common one, and you've addressed it, is
23:50
we're all stressed out and we don't even know how much we are
23:53
because we're all swimming in the same water.
23:56
So there's that. A subtler thread is we all want
24:02
and need connection, offended connection.
24:05
And we often default to what I call the junk food or
24:09
connection, say social media, which might initially feed a
24:14
certain hunger, but it doesn't nourish us and we and we get
24:17
addicted to it. So yeah, we need offended
24:21
connection. And maybe we had as a kid, but
24:24
most adults, certainly men, don't have it.
24:27
And with that, we need community.
24:29
And we usually don't have real community.
24:32
And a lot of the organizations that foster community are
24:35
disappearing. And there's new research coming
24:39
out and saying what the impact is on the culture, but
24:42
particularly for men. And it's actually now a
24:45
resurgence back into churches for the younger generation
24:49
because I think they're looking for community.
24:53
Yeah. You know the suddenly BBQ is
24:56
great, right? I mean, who doesn't want that?
25:01
And, you know, we, I think we go to church or whatever that might
25:04
have been or still is for some people.
25:06
A lot of that is just to be with people.
25:10
Yeah, yeah. When you're working with
25:12
founders, you're working with, let's say execs, how, how are
25:16
their issues different? You know, like as a founder,
25:19
there's a lot, it seems like there's often times loneliness.
25:21
If I'm just speaking personally, it's like hard to trust people
25:24
and it's like hard to have an outlet for like what you're
25:27
going through. And then within a corporate
25:31
environment, I assume there's like, it seems like everyone's
25:34
done in for you. There's like treachery involved
25:36
and things like that. Am I off?
25:37
But off base here I think. There's a lot of that.
25:41
You know, you ask some of these guys who are your friends.
25:44
And I remember one guy saying, yeah, I got friends, but they're
25:46
also my competitors. Yeah.
25:49
And so they really can't be my friends.
25:52
Where, you know, again, you got a group of guys, you know, like
25:55
I say, you don't eat with them, you don't sleep with them, you
25:58
don't work with them. I mean, so you can just be real
26:00
because there's not secondary concerns about being vulnerable
26:04
with them. So I think that's critical.
26:07
But yeah, again, we've as guys, we've sort of accepted that, but
26:12
in accepting it, we sort of denied or forgotten that we
26:17
really need authentic friends. I remember a friend of mine
26:22
started a group now it's probably 30 years ago, and he
26:27
had two sons, one son died and his group for a month.
26:32
There was always a man with that man as he was going through his
26:36
grief. And, and, and it's like I've,
26:40
I've said, you know, these guys are your pallbearers.
26:43
These are the guys that really know you.
26:45
They have your back. They're there for you.
26:47
And I got a lot of stories in this group that I created 20
26:50
years ago how that's the case. And most guys don't have that.
26:56
It's like you call it 2:00 in the morning when you're in
26:58
crisis or who do you call when you have a big win and you want
27:01
to, you know, celebrate it with someone?
27:05
Yeah. Why is that?
27:06
Why don't we have that? Yeah, I think it's the culture,
27:11
it's the stress guys in general. I mean, it's a part of our
27:16
nature. We're focused on performance.
27:18
You know, we're meant to go out and on the hunting party and
27:21
bring back the elk or whatever. So that's naturally there, but
27:25
it's become very much more oriented towards performance.
27:30
And we see our value, our worth through performance.
27:33
And we did a big study several years ago and the bottom line
27:36
thing that we found was that as men, we don't feel we're good
27:38
enough. And a lot of that's predicated
27:41
on I'm not good enough because I'd, I'm not performing as well
27:44
as you or you or you. And we judge ourselves.
27:47
So that's a bit of a no win situation rather than, oh, I'm
27:54
just who I am. I had these unique gifts and
27:56
they're my new challenges or whatever else.
27:59
And I show up with this and at the end of the day I can accept
28:03
that and I have at least some place in my life where other
28:06
people accept me in that same way.
28:10
And, you know, we've also made a culture so complicated that
28:15
it's, it's hard to like, find kinship.
28:18
And maybe this is another great place for kind of somatic
28:20
practice as opposed to being stuck in your head because you
28:23
might be at like, a a nice little party and someone corners
28:26
you and they're like, hey, did you know Bill Gates has a space
28:29
laser he's using to amplify hurricanes in the Gulf of
28:32
Mexico? And I'm like, bro, I don't want
28:36
to talk about that. I want to know what do you think
28:37
of the tacos? You know, like, let's let's
28:41
connect on something real here as opposed to like whatever
28:43
YouTube channel that you're you're watching.
28:45
But like we all have that, you know, I am kind of making fun of
28:49
this guy, but I have my own thing and be like, Oh my God,
28:51
have you seen XYZ? And someone else would be like,
28:53
oh man, it's so like, because we're, we're so like into our
28:57
own weird mental bubbles of what we're fixated on at any time.
29:01
And now there's so much variety of different bubbles that are in
29:05
conflict with other people's bubbles that like, you don't
29:08
have the like position to be emotional and vulnerable because
29:11
we're all looking at each other like we're crazy.
29:13
But you know, it, it, it's like people make fun of small talk,
29:16
like about what the weather and food and stuff.
29:18
It's like, Nah, man, that's the important stuff.
29:20
Maybe. Well, that's Fortnite.
29:22
To a deeper conversation and and so and this is what Stephen
29:27
Porges, a guy to develop Polyvaga theory really
29:31
discovered in the research is that we're hardwired to read
29:35
people. We the body, the body movement,
29:39
the body posture, the face, all these little muscles to the
29:42
face, what they're doing, their eyes, the tonicity of their
29:48
voice. We're hardwired unconsciously to
29:51
know, you know, is that person are you safe?
29:54
And if I unconsciously feel that you're safe, I'm going to down
29:59
regulate. I'm going to probably mimic
30:01
being safe and you're going to pick that up.
30:04
And so we start to get rapport. But in the beginning, we got to
30:07
sort of test that. And yeah, if someone's wearing a
30:10
mask as you're sort of inferring you're going to go, I don't
30:14
think, you know, I want to do this because in part because
30:18
you're not, you're not feeling safe.
30:19
You're not feeling any place of engagement.
30:22
So we want to feel safe. We want to have a, a way to
30:26
engage, which is really, and this is the core of what we do
30:28
in our groups is to go deeper into a more authentic
30:32
interaction, which is not superficial BS that we usually
30:37
talk about. Yeah. 100% and it, it's so
30:42
important to have a spot for that, you know, and I love those
30:45
opportunities. I'm lucky.
30:46
I, well, I'm not going to say I'm lucky.
30:48
I have those. I seek out those opportunities
30:50
and make them happen, you know, because it's important to me and
30:53
because I'm a social person. And I also, I think I like the,
30:56
the challenge too, because I'm a playful person that I like to
31:00
have, I like to try and temper these serious environments with
31:03
a little bit of playfulness. You know, if I can it, it, it
31:07
helps it for to land with me. One thing you mentioned I want
31:10
to ask you more about too, is people using a lot of therapy
31:14
language now. It's it's like in it, it's in
31:17
our vernacular. If people are like, oh, she's a
31:20
narcissist or I have ADHD and we're like self kind of like
31:26
prescribing ourself with different things whether we have
31:30
it or not, you know, how do you think that kind of influences
31:33
the culture and us on a personal?
31:35
Level, that's a big thing for me.
31:37
I write about it, I speak about it.
31:39
So we, we self diagnose and often we make it as an excuse
31:43
for being who we are. But then we diagnose others and
31:47
we make them wrong for, you know, it.
31:49
It's a more sophisticated way of making that person wrong.
31:52
So for, you know, for us, you know, for myself, it can become
31:56
my excuse. And then for someone else, it's,
31:58
you know, a way to just make them wrong behind their back or
32:02
maybe directly. So yeah, the good thing is we're
32:05
a little more sophisticated. The bad thing is we're all
32:08
playing to be therapist and we're really, again, we're all
32:16
going to have certain dysfunctions because of stress
32:19
and trauma and our upbringing, our family, our culture and, and
32:24
I wouldn't even know what perfect was.
32:25
And we're so we're not ever going to be there.
32:28
But I think underneath all that, we're scared.
32:33
We're scared to experience our own experience in a full way and
32:37
to really be vulnerable with someone else.
32:39
We'd rather make them wrong or judge them then just be with
32:43
them. I think it's like the new
32:46
astrology. Yeah.
32:47
You're like, oh, it's because I'm a Sagittarius.
32:49
I don't like her because she's a Capricorn.
32:52
I think that's I just wrote about that.
32:54
Yeah, it's it's a new. Oh, did you really?
32:56
Yeah. And so, and, and, and with that,
33:02
part of why we do that is we, we want to predict.
33:07
And so like with astrology, you know, the belief is if I really
33:10
understand astrology, I can predict what's going to happen.
33:14
And so I can protect myself rather than just live my life,
33:19
develop these skills and deal with what comes.
33:22
I need to find the the easiest, the safest way or through life,
33:26
which, OK, but then you avoid things.
33:29
And then it's a very defensive protective orientation to life
33:33
and not a real engagement. And we do that when we interact
33:36
with people. We want to, we want to
33:38
understand. And I was one of the worst that
33:40
is figuring out and analyzing someone so that we we can
33:45
protect ourselves. Yeah.
33:49
Yeah, and the kind of the self diagnosing, to me, it just seems
33:52
like lazy language and like boring communication.
33:56
So I was talking to somebody recently that something weird
33:59
happened to me. I was on, I was doing a Zoom
34:01
presentation for like 200 people and I'm on Zoom.
34:04
I'm on these calls like a ridiculous amount of time.
34:07
I love the podcast, but you know, a lot of us are sitting on
34:10
back-to-back Zoom calls all day long.
34:12
So I'm doing a Zoom call for whatever reason, Boy, I started
34:15
having some really weird symptoms.
34:17
You know, like, I started like, tunnel vision.
34:19
I got this piercing pain in my back and shortness of breath.
34:23
And I was kind of describing. I was like, yeah, I got stage
34:24
fright. It was weird.
34:25
I haven't got stage fright since I had a guitar in my hand years
34:28
ago. And gal I was talking to, she's
34:30
like, that's anxiety. That's how I feel every single
34:33
day on all interactions. And I was like.
34:37
I don't think. Why is it going to be anxiety?
34:39
Why can't it be stage fright? Like, isn't that a more
34:41
interesting way to talk about it?
34:43
What's? The other thing happening there?
34:46
Oh, that she. Actually wants to move the
34:48
conversation to. Herself.
34:49
Exactly. So.
34:50
So you're being vulnerable, just saying what's happening for you
34:54
and suddenly it's about her. Yeah.
34:58
Yeah, and we all do that. That's the the, the hard part
35:02
about, you know, if you're in conversations that like you are
35:06
being vulnerable, they'd be like, Oh my God, it's just like
35:08
my neighbor's aunt's cousin, she had something just like that,
35:10
only a little bit more better and interesting sounding.
35:13
So let's talk about that now. And I let me tell you what you
35:15
need to do. Yeah.
35:19
With that, I have the answer. Right, right.
35:22
Amazing. OK, I want to talk about the
35:23
future of what your practice looks like.
35:26
But before we do, I want to go back 50 years ago to Boulder, if
35:31
that's OK with you. The reason why it's important to
35:34
me is because the Beat poets were important when I was a kid.
35:37
You know, I read On the Road when I was 15 years old and all
35:40
I wanted to do was smoke weed and play jazz music.
35:43
You know, it was important to me because Neil Cassidy was was
35:47
from Denver. And so the book takes place of
35:49
like they're going from Manhattan and they're driving
35:52
across town and they're coming through Denver to neighborhoods
35:54
I knew. And for the first time,
35:56
literature was exciting to me. For the first time, literature
35:58
was had something to do with Denver.
36:00
It wasn't about LA, but it was it was about Mexico, but it was
36:04
it wasn't about Manhattan, but it was.
36:06
So it had this like cool, unifying thing, you know, here
36:09
now. So as I start to read about that
36:11
and you hear about how the beatniks expand into the hippies
36:14
with the electric Kool-aid acid test, and you have like, all
36:17
these guys, and it's really centralized around Denver.
36:20
Of course, 50 years ago in Boulder, you have Chagyam Trung
36:23
Pol Rinpoche, who starts Shambhala with, you know, the
36:27
beats in Boulder. And they create this
36:30
unbelievably potent, potent message.
36:33
I mean, I love Trung POL's writing.
36:35
However, it's also, you know, what they called crazy wisdom,
36:40
which also might be described as like some kind of like vapid
36:45
orgy culture of partying and like God knows what seems like a
36:49
good time and the worst of times.
36:51
What was it like from your experience when you were in
36:53
Boulder it? Was the last half of the the 70s
36:56
and it was sort of like that it was like a mini San Francisco.
37:01
It was beginning to be now, you know, continues to be the, you
37:05
know, the haven for, you know, the Buddhism for alternative
37:09
medicine, holistic therapies, particularly body therapies,
37:13
body work, which body psychotherapies and then a very
37:17
physical community, you know, bike riding, rock climbing and
37:22
all that. So it was either like you were a
37:24
Buddhist or an athlete or into some new age holistic thing back
37:30
then. And, you know, sometimes those
37:32
things would mix. And I remember I lived in this
37:38
house that this friend of mine was an architect bought.
37:41
It was an old house. It was Kitty corner from Mark
37:43
and Mindy's house, you know, where they actually didn't live
37:48
there or whatever, but they they used this house as the opposable
37:51
House of Mark and Mindy and you know, where they were in
37:56
Boulder. So people would stop in front of
37:58
the house and take pictures and I'd look out my bedroom window
38:01
and see that. So this friend of mine bought
38:03
this duplex, big old, beautiful duplex, connected it.
38:08
We knocked out a part of the center wall, created a a huge
38:12
kitchen between two kitchens. And we had I think like 13
38:15
people living there. And we had the the best parties
38:19
you could imagine. And then, yeah, I remember one
38:23
night going up to my room, you know, to get something, and
38:27
there was a couple in my bed. Yeah, as it happened to that
38:32
app. Where'd you just go back there?
38:33
There was a different couple, so I'm going to have to put an end
38:39
to this. So I just put put it out that I
38:41
had crabs, but that gives you a sense of what it was like that.
38:49
So a little setup. I went to Boulder because I
38:53
couldn't find a place to work a living in and skiers and in
38:57
Colorado. Someone suggested Boulder ended
38:59
up there and then just fell into all this.
39:03
And I, because I had a roommate giving up his law practice of
39:05
eight years to move the Boulder to learn all this.
39:07
And he convinced me to get into it.
39:08
And that's all it took. I spent a year at the Boulder
39:12
Massage College, which was I probably learned more there and
39:15
then four years of college. But yeah, when you're touching
39:20
naked bodies all day and they're touching you, you can imagine
39:24
what that does to the sexual energy.
39:26
Yeah. And so that's what we.
39:29
Well, especially at that time, which it from all descriptions,
39:31
it was much more open and sexually liberal.
39:33
Now we have the opposite problem, right?
39:36
Young people aren't dashing each other at all.
39:38
There's like the population is in decline and everyone's scared
39:42
to even look at anybody. Well, and, you know, and you do
39:45
hookups or you do, you know, you do things in apps or whatever,
39:48
you text people. But, you know, we didn't have
39:51
any of that. And in that community, the
39:54
bodywork community, yeah, it was pretty open and it was fun and,
39:59
and it was very, actually very healing.
40:02
Yeah. I know there is that aspect
40:05
that's kind of been lost from our culture a little bit.
40:07
You know, when you you study, especially the Hindus, you know,
40:10
they'll often say that you should have like a, a romantic
40:14
love for your guru or your teacher or whatever.
40:17
Like it's an important part of the process to us.
40:19
Of course, that feels like, Oh my God, hell no, you know,
40:23
you're not. You get away from my wifey
40:24
psycho. Like we have very different
40:26
sexual norms. I think a lot of that is
40:29
probably to protect people from, you know, you know, bad actors,
40:33
which is great. But there is something, if you
40:35
think about us as like just basically, you know, hairless
40:39
small tribe primates like the and we're not monogamous by
40:43
nature, there is a benefit you have from having like big
40:46
multiple sexual partners amongst the group, you know?
40:51
Because you learn a lot. I mean, a lot of the Ditchen is
40:55
lineages, you know, they'll send you, you know, off to be with a
40:59
medicine person, say have the opposite sex, an older person
41:02
that would train you in this stuff.
41:04
And so that's, you know, when we're young, that's when we're
41:07
supposed to be learning this, you know, the best case by
41:10
someone that's sort of guiding us.
41:12
But at least through experience, which is, you know, I was
41:15
fortunate to have a lot of experiences and some were good,
41:19
but they all trained me. They all educated me.
41:22
So I went from a very uptight Catholic guy and, you know, into
41:27
Boulder. And when I left, that was a
41:28
different man. I love it.
41:33
I didn't have that experience, but I had the opportunity.
41:36
Can I just share a story with you?
41:39
Yeah. I'm 19.
41:40
I'm hitchhiking back from Alaska to Colorado and I get picked up
41:45
by these two gals. You know, they're both marathon
41:48
runners. They were 30.
41:49
And they're like, where you going?
41:50
I'm like, I got to go to Hanes because I have, I'm catching a
41:52
ferry down to wherever and boom. And they're like, OK, you can go
41:55
with with us. We're going the same direction.
41:57
This is like 1000 miles. They're about to drive me over 2
42:00
days. I'm like, oh, that's so cool.
42:02
So, you know, we're we're hitting off whatever.
42:04
We had two tents and you know that I, I'm literally like, oh,
42:09
they're 30. They'd have no interest in me.
42:11
They're both beautiful women. And they're like, we're all
42:14
bedded down. I'm in my tent.
42:15
They're in their tent and they're like, Ryan, can we sing
42:19
you a lullaby? I was like, sure.
42:22
And they're like, well, why don't you come in here in our
42:25
tent and we'll sing you a lullaby.
42:27
And I was like, oh, no, I just, I just got snuggled in.
42:30
Go ahead, though. And so they sang me a lullaby
42:33
from the other tent and I was like, that's so nice.
42:35
Goodnight. Sophie told me drop me off the
42:40
next day. And it was probably I mean, it
42:42
was a long time afterwards. I'm saying I was probably 30
42:45
years old when I was like, I remember I met those gals that
42:48
were 30. I want too bad they weren't into
42:50
me. And then I was like, no, Ryan,
42:52
wait, they were, they were there to teach me the ways and you
42:56
missed it. A few of those, and then
42:59
unfortunately, a few of them I took advantage of too.
43:01
But yeah, I was, I was shy and yeah, but yeah.
43:07
And all the women were a huge teacher for me.
43:11
Yeah, yeah. I know, yeah.
43:14
And you know, the the pendulum always swings.
43:16
So now we're we're very conservative sexually across the
43:19
board. And that's probably for a
43:20
rightful means because there are definitely terrible things that
43:23
happened in that Boulder community that were exposed that
43:26
should not have happened. So I think as the pendulum keeps
43:29
coming back and forth, we'll get better and use more skill.
43:32
For me, and as as time goes by now, I want to talk about the
43:36
future a little bit. You built a legacy of generative
43:39
coaching and leadership over decades.
43:42
We're entering a time of robots, supercomputers, AI, friends,
43:48
technology. We can't even imagine.
43:50
When you start to look at how your practice will look in five
43:53
or ten years, what kind of comes to mind?
43:56
Well, yeah, I use AI and I use it the LLLMS, you know, for
44:00
research, for helping me write some become more effective and
44:04
more productive, which I think that's pretty much what
44:08
everyone's doing these days. And then a couple months ago I
44:12
said, you know, I think there's some here.
44:15
So I created my own ChatGPT, my own like alpha app using my
44:23
technology. So it's, I call it the Meld solo
44:27
coach where you, you know, you interact with the chat and it
44:34
takes you deeper into your somatic experience and it works
44:37
with your relational situation. So you know, it's not therapy,
44:42
but it's sort of coaching you within this model I created.
44:45
And that, you know, we've proven and there's been research on
44:48
this that so it's and it's based on science.
44:51
So, you know, we know it works. So taking that and adapting it
44:56
to AI. And I was talking to a client of
44:59
mine that's was a senior executive of a tech company in
45:04
the Bay Area. And, you know, he did a big buy
45:07
out and now he's going to be doing something else.
45:09
And I said, yeah. And you want to try?
45:10
He said yeah, yeah, give it to me and.
45:13
He was really impressed. One begin because he knows tech
45:17
and but you know, he knows my work and it he started putting
45:21
things into it and it started guiding him as if I was there,
45:25
you know, helping him. So I think that's one specific
45:29
place we're going to go with technology because in general, I
45:33
think technology, you know, I know expert, but I, I use it, I
45:38
have used it for years. I think it really provides a lot
45:42
even before AI. But the problem is, is it
45:45
fosters individualism and disconnection.
45:49
Yeah. And so I want to find ways to
45:53
reverse that to, to foster, you know, connection to ourselves
45:57
through our somatic experience, through emotional experience,
46:00
connections to others, to create community.
46:02
And I think there's a way to do that.
46:05
It's sort of we're, we're sort of outliers and trying to do it
46:08
that way. But I just see there's a growing
46:11
need and you're speaking to it as we keep developing more
46:14
technology as Nesbest's book, what, 40-50 years ago, you know,
46:21
what was that? I forgot the name of the book,
46:25
but he talked about, you know, we're high tech, we're as high
46:29
touch. And you certainly saw that in
46:32
like San Francisco, you know, and the Bayer, the tech
46:35
developed, but also that was the the epicenter of all so much of
46:40
this new age or new movement that developed.
46:45
And so I'm seeing that there's a need for, you know, an openness
46:51
for bringing in these other skills with technology.
46:56
So I haven't figured it all out, but we're starting to dive into
46:59
it. It'd be interesting to see.
47:02
It's kind of like a it doesn't, they don't have to be opposing
47:04
each other, but it's like width verse depth, you know.
47:07
So for example, like I have, you know, massage therapist, body
47:11
worker took me years to find people that whether it's
47:14
acupuncture or these kind of therapies, largely because man,
47:17
there's a vibe, you know what I mean?
47:19
I could go to see a robot massage therapist.
47:22
I'm sure they could like use AI to scan my body and find all the
47:25
things and it'd be like, OK, cool.
47:27
And that might be like a zero to 80 would get me there.
47:30
But to get to 100, I've got, you know, a gal who like, there's
47:33
like a spiritual connection. And I don't mean that in a woo
47:36
way, but like literally we're breathing together where we have
47:39
a rhythm and a flow. She understands innately things
47:42
about my body through the touch. You know, that's like really
47:45
nice for me. So it's like, OK, it's not going
47:47
to replace that. But if I can get 80% of the way
47:51
10 times as many times like that, that does provide a
47:54
certain advantage, you know? But they're like it's there's
47:58
another thing that you're being provided that's not necessarily
48:01
the same depth. And, and the great example for
48:04
us is I started doing virtual work before the pandemic.
48:07
And when that happened, I took my last company completely
48:10
virtual because we had no choice and I was hesitant even though I
48:14
saw some benefit. But that's what I say to guys.
48:18
I mean, virtual grooves are probably 80% effective.
48:21
I'm in one, I've been in one for several years now and it really
48:24
works. Now, I think we all like the
48:27
live groups, but when you can't do it for whatever reason,
48:31
there's a real advantage to and that's certainly a lot better
48:33
than nothing. And so I think there is a place
48:36
for technology like you have those thumpers that you know,
48:38
like those massage things that they were.
48:42
I'd rather have someone's elbow that knows what they're doing
48:45
working mate. But in some situations, one of
48:50
those thumpers would work. Yeah.
48:52
And it remains to be seen whether like this kind of like
48:56
disciplic succession thing that happens.
48:58
You know, if you want to become a Zen master, then you need to
49:02
have a Zen master graduate you, which they just observe when
49:06
it's happened for you. You know what, you kind of need
49:08
that important hit me in the side with a bamboo stick to like
49:12
spawn that thing at the right time.
49:14
There's there's something that cannot be replaced by actual
49:18
being in the same space together.
49:21
Unless there is. We're about to find out.
49:25
Amazing. OK.
49:26
Can we do the the lightning round?
49:28
Yeah. This is going to be a this or
49:31
that as it pertains to you personally.
49:34
And it can be this or that or both.
49:37
If it's both, then we have to drink.
49:39
So you have your, your giant bottle of Scotch, right?
49:44
I'll be drinking coffee, you lush.
49:48
So here we go. OK.
49:49
So vulnerability or accountability and this is
49:51
what's important to you, I mean? I should say both because you
49:58
want me to give you the reason, or just say both.
50:00
No, please. Yeah.
50:04
As guys, we think we need your accountability and
50:06
accountability is important, but often it's pushed on guys where
50:12
the, the delegate, that precision comes in, you tell me
50:16
what you want and I hold you accountable to getting what you
50:19
want, not what I think I want. And a part of that's going to be
50:22
vulnerability. So they go together and they
50:24
support each other. And that's sort of the, the,
50:27
the, you know what I would say, not so much the feminine, the
50:29
masculine, but more the mother's energy and the, and the father's
50:32
energy, the father's energy. And we're missing.
50:35
This is the energy of challenge. We need that kind of energy.
50:39
And most men are deficient in that, love that.
50:43
That probably ties into this one.
50:44
Safety or risk? Both, and it does tie into that,
50:48
you know, the mother's energy, and that's great, is about
50:51
safety. The father's energy in a
50:53
simplistic way or classical way, is about risk.
50:58
And we grow with risk. And as a guy in my group, he
51:01
grew up without a father and with, I think four sisters.
51:05
And he's really realizing that there was a real hole in his
51:09
life. And he didn't know there was a
51:11
hole because he, you know, he never knew anything, you know.
51:13
And, and like I said to him, I said you would have been a
51:16
better off with a bad father than no father.
51:20
Darren interesting. How about ritual or spontaneity?
51:28
Again, I think it's both. Oh.
51:30
And we're going to be hammered after this.
51:33
Yeah, spontaneities are really important.
51:38
I never had that. I've learned how to just
51:40
naturally develop, but what I teach is that inherently we need
51:47
ritual. And if we don't have a positive
51:49
ritual, we'll default to a negative ritual.
51:52
And that a lot of habits and addictions are that.
51:55
And so knowing that you need and then and I hear like, you know,
51:59
your meditation, your jiu jitsu and all that is a very positive
52:04
ritual. So what happens is when you are
52:07
under stress or whatever, you think about that positive thing
52:10
you're going to do rather than something negative.
52:13
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, and they seem to be
52:16
combined. You know, the best rituals are
52:20
essentially like seem to be kind of a an entry point into
52:25
spontaneity. You know, if you're thinking
52:26
about like the the head of a jazz standard, you know, it's
52:29
like, OK, we're all going to do this thing, but then we're going
52:31
to we're going to explode and go explore.
52:33
Exactly. Cool.
52:37
Patience are urgency. I would say patience, yeah,
52:43
patience goes with presence, urgency goes with reacting and,
52:47
you know, being at the effect of something not always but and
52:51
being addicted to that stress response.
52:55
Yeah, urgency is a interesting one, like because they always
52:58
talk about contemplative practice like you, you can't go
53:02
in there looking for any merit. You can't go sit and meditate
53:06
wanting it to in to make your life better.
53:09
But of course, if you don't have any urgency or like passion to
53:12
do it, you just won't. So there's it seems like it's
53:16
always. Yeah, urgency or crisis or pain
53:19
is what motivates particularly men.
53:21
And you know, 50 years of practice, most guys don't come
53:25
to me or us without some pain, or me you might call urgency.
53:31
Community support or individual mastery.
53:34
Yeah, I think it's both, but I I would probably air to the
53:38
community support just because we don't have them.
53:41
We really don't know what it is. We think of it institutionally,
53:44
but we don't think of it in a communal more travel way, which
53:49
is more personal. And and I'm going to write I'm
53:54
writing free books once essentially done needs to be
53:56
edited once in cymatics. Another 1 is really the depth of
54:00
self help and part of that is that we've emphasize, you know,
54:06
as you said, therapy or therapy speak, but being the individual
54:10
and doing personal work. And I think there's a balance
54:13
that needs to be there. Great, this has been awesome
54:17
Owen describe for us your your favorite clients like who do you
54:20
love to work with who benefits best from working with you
54:23
They've. Always been the entrepreneurs
54:29
because, and you don't have to be an entrepreneur, but that's
54:32
that mindset of all, right, I'm going to do a little due
54:34
diligence. You know, I'm a smart guy.
54:36
I'm going to check this out. And then, you know, if, if I had
54:39
these needs and it sort of matches it, all right, I'm going
54:41
to try, I'm going to let experience be my judge.
54:44
So I'm not going to overanalyze it and you know, and not take
54:47
action. If it's, if it feels good and it
54:50
looks good, I'll try it and I'll let experience be the judge.
54:54
And, and if I get what I want or more than I want, I'm going to
54:57
keep pursuing it. And, and that's those guys, you
55:01
know, dive in, they get the most out of it because they're
55:04
getting a great ROI on, on their effort.
55:08
And and then they bring in their friends.
55:12
I love it. Oh, and where can we find you
55:13
online? So yeah, I'm at meld dot
55:16
community. Meld dot community.
55:19
Meld dot community, we will link that in the show notes.
55:23
It's been a wonderful conversation.
55:24
I really appreciate it, Owen. Oh, this has been fun.
55:26
And talking about Boulder and Denver, it's a bonus.
55:32
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