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The Voice Inside with Ro Mitchell | Bradford Literature Festival 2026 · explore words discover worlds

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_06: We are here to talk about how to talk to yourself with the wonderful Ro Mitchell.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_06: Ro I'm sure everybody here knows you, but you know, you are a voice for young women.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_06: Your social challenges at challenge sorry, your social challenge channels are dedicated to that positive messaging that you give out with honesty and growth at the forefront.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_06: So we're going to talk about the book and about all the things in the book and your advice and about your social media career and everything.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_06: But um, just to kick us off, so I I've read through the book and you know it's a really honest book, Rowe.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_06: You've put so much of yourself into it, and I know you do that on everything that you put on social media.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_06: How did that feel to take the years of advice and learning that you've had from your own journey and then put it into a book?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_07: To be honest, it was such a dream for me because I've always loved writing so much, and I always wanted to kind of compile everything into one place as a kind of resource for people if they wanted to use it.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_07: Um, so yeah, I found the process of actually writing it one really cathartic.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_07: I feel like actually I learned a lot about myself while I was writing that, and it probably helped me kind of heal even more than I already had at the time when I was writing it.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_07: But I also I just found it so fulfilling because I care so much about kind of supporting people that have been in the position that I've been in, and yeah, to be given an opportunity to kind of do that just felt really great.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_06: One of the things you tackle in the book, and I know you tackle on your social media, which in a way in some ways was a bit shocking to me when I read it, but in other ways not, because I totally understand where you're coming from.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_06: I think that's partly why I'm hosting this event, is I totally get where you're coming from.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_06: But the level of negative self-talk you've had to yourself over the years, in a way I found quite shocking.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and you've really had to challenge it.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_06: Tell us a bit more about the kind of things that you used to say to yourself.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I mean, when I look back now, I'm kind of shocked that that's the way that I used to talk to myself.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_07: But it is, it's the way I lived.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_07: That's the way I woke up every day.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_07: I would wake up and immediately it would be basically just hating on myself.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I it there was no limits to it, there was no nowhere it would stop.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_07: It was looking in the mirror, so my appearance, it was what I'd eaten, what I was going to eat, it was whether I'd exercised, it was about my friendships, it was about whether people liked me or not, it was literally every part of my life I could be horrible to myself about it.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_07: And I wouldn't, weren't you?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_06: You told yourself all the time that you were useless and you know, and and ugly and things like that.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, and and I really believed it.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_07: I until I sort of worked on my self-talk and worked on my self-belief, really.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_07: I honestly thought that I was kind of a pointless person, that no one really liked me, that I was ugly, that I was stupid.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_07: All of these things that we tell ourselves, I was I was really telling myself all of them.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_06: And in the book, you I mean, at the start you describe it as a gentle guide towards a positive relationship with yourself, and you're really clear in the book and in your social media and other stuff.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_06: Not if you feel like that, not to blame yourself.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_06: Sorry, I'm getting quite emotional actually because I know I know what that's like.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_06: And not to blame yourself.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_06: To to I think the message I read from your book was try and understand it, acknowledge it, and be kind to yourself in finding ways that work for you as an individual in how to counteract that rather than adding even more blame onto yourself.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, because it's not your fault that you think the way you think.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, all negative self-talk has come from somewhere.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_07: You're not born hating yourself, you're not born thinking there's something wrong with you or your body.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_07: You're you're taught it, you learn it, and that's not your fault.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_07: And so being unkind to yourself about the fact that you're unkind to yourself is only gonna spiral the problem and make it worse.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and that was something that I really had to focus on as well because I'm such a perfectionist, and with my kind of eating disorder recovery, I found that I was quite perfectionist about it too, and wanted to follow even more rules in my recovery.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_07: And kind of having to let go of all of that and the perfectionism actually kind of propelled me forward into a place where I could be more comfortable with myself because if I was kind of picking my thoughts apart and thinking, oh, I've had a negative thought about myself, and I'm supposed to not do that anymore, so I must have slipped back and things must be bad again.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_07: If I kind of was thinking like that, I'd end up back in that spiral of being unkind to myself again.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_07: So I really had to let it kind of be a more chill process and let myself just be and think that actually sometimes I'm gonna have difficult thoughts, even if I have worked on it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_07: That doesn't mean that I've slipped back, that doesn't mean that I'm doing something wrong or that it's a reason to hate myself, it just means that I'm a human.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_06: Absolutely, and you you talking about that, about that sort of negativity on this.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_06: There's there's another message that comes through really strongly in the book, and it's I mean, I think it the book recognises some of these things are uh dichotomy is maybe not the right word, but you know, that there's a number of different that things are complex and there's a number of different elements, so there's that side of recognizing sort of personal negativity, but you also talk about not putting that on other people, and I really liked that in the book that you know you you were saying you may be a perfectionist yourself, but also don't criticize other people because you might think they're a bit up themselves or whatever, you know.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_06: You talked about you talk about that in the book.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_06: Tell us a bit more about that.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, so I feel like probably because of my the women that I grew up with in my life, their kind of generation, was very much like it was embarrassing to be a woman that was confident in herself, and it was embarrassing to feel good about yourself and to say nice things about yourself.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_07: And I think even the friends that I had at school were kind of in that same position, and we wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't say nice things about ourselves, and we wouldn't say nice things to each other, yeah.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_07: I mean you could compliment other people, that's a nice thing, but to say about yourself is like, oh, why are you so confident?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_07: And that was always the question of she's so confident, why is she so confident?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_07: As if that's a bad thing, as if being confident in yourself won't actually propel you forward in life.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_07: Like self-confidence to me as a child was something that I thought was just a bit embarrassing and that I wouldn't want to.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_06: But that's really difficult to have that against also being a perfectionist, isn't it?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_06: Because how do you, if you're a perfectionist, but at the same time it's wrong to be self-confident?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, well, I mean, this is probably why can you you can't win?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_07: I got so tangled up in all of it, and it felt like there was kind of no way out because every way I turned I was kind of telling myself that I was doing something wrong.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_07: You know, I I I think with perfectionism, I took it to extremes and I wanted every aspect of my life and what I did to be perfect.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_07: And realistically, you know, I look back at my childhood now and I think I I mean I first of all was just a child, no one's expecting a child to be perfect and to be able to get everything right, but also, you know, I had things like the fact that I had ADHD and I didn't know I had ADHD, so I was quite an anxious child and I struggled a lot in friendships, and because I kind of had friendship fallouts, that felt like I'm doing something wrong.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_07: This should be, I should be able to keep friends, I should be able to, you know, be someone that people like, so that's something that I can pick apart as well.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_07: So perfectionism just kind of ended up seeping into every part of everything, really, as well.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and and and you put that pr if you put that pressure on yourself, as I say, I don't I don't think you can ever win because none of us are perfect.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, we're we're all contradictions, we're all good and bad.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_06: And in fact, I would you know there's one bit in the book as well where you say, I can't remember how you say it, but that you acknowledge that you did some things that maybe weren't great with when you were being, I think, pressurized and bullied, I think is is the phrase by some of the girls at school.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_06: But maybe if we do things that are bad, it doesn't mean we're bad people.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I mean that was something I really had to learn as well, and that's the part in the book that I actually wasn't going to include to start with, because I hadn't really thought about what forgiveness had done for me, and actually being able to forgive myself, how much that had helped me in becoming kinder to myself and becoming more okay with who I was, because I lived with this kind of idea that I was like an awful person and that at my core I was nasty and I was mean.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_07: Obviously, that wasn't the truth because I wasn't going out and being horrible to people, I wasn't thinking nasty things about people, I wasn't being mean, but I had found myself in situations at school.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_07: The one that I reference in the book is uh I had like a group of friends, and there was a lot of sort of cattiness, a lot of inner group kind of bullying, which happened, it happens with young girls.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_07: Any anyone that's been a young girl will know that we can be horrible to each other.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but I found my I found myself in this situation where they'd basically set me up to try and get me to agree with them on talking unkindly about someone else and and so that this person had heard um to catch me out, to be like, look and making sure she was there.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_06: I knew when I was reading it and I got to the first lines, because you're in the toilet, the girl's toilet, and I thought they've got the other girl in the toilet, and they're doing this so that you will say it, yeah.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_06: You'll hit they'll hear you be nasty about her, that person would.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, and I mean that memory sticks in my mind.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_07: It it always has.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_07: When I think about school, that is one of the first memories that comes to my mind.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_07: So it obviously impacted me and the way that I feel about myself so much.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_07: But what that taught me about myself was that I could be unkind about other people and that I could be nasty.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_07: And from that, I started to believe that I was a bad person.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_07: But actually, when I look back at you know, the situation I was in at school, I wanted to fit in, I wanted friends, I wanted people to like me.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_07: Everyone was being unkind to each other, and I joined in.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_07: I'm still, you know, as an adult, I look back and I think, well, yeah, I didn't agree with those things, so I shouldn't have said them.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_07: But I've forgiven myself for it because actually I was doing my best with what I had at the time, and I was just trying to get through school.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_07: And you know, there's no point beating myself up for the rest of my life over something that happened in the past, and that can apply to so many things.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_06: It can, and I think that that feeling of how we feel within ourselves, and those like you call it forgiveness.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_06: This is uh totally different, but you know, tomorrow afternoon I'll be talking about my book, which in lots of ways is it's all about travel, but it's all also about my story of living through my husband's very difficult mental health crisis.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_06: And right through all of that, the thing that kept me going was feeling like I was a good person.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_06: I had and and it was really interesting because there was one occasion when somebody sort of challenged that, and that was the moment at which I nearly lost it through everything.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_06: Because no matter, you know, and I so I think that that sense of who we have within ourselves is so crucial to us being able to kind of keep going, and I it just really, you know, and I think that message is really important, isn't it?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_06: Even if we do things that maybe we look back and go, oh god, I wish I'd never said that or I wish I'd never done that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_06: Don't beat yourself up over it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_07: 100%.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I've had arguments with people I love and I've said things that I regret as an adult, it it's still gonna happen because you're human, you know, you're not going to always be 100% perfect, but that doesn't make you a bad person.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_07: And I think it's so easy to pinpoint the things that you've done wrong, but actually, you don't look at all of the little things that you're doing right every day and all of the nice things that you do for people.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_07: Even if you've messaged your friend, you know, it's their birthday, you've remembered it's their birthday.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_07: Some people wouldn't remember, some people won't have messaged them.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_07: That's a nice thing to do, but you'll never give yourself a pat on the back for that.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_07: You'll never tell yourself, Oh, I'm such a good person, because it's so much easier to focus on the negatives and focus on what you've done wrong or your your shortcomings.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_07: And actually, uh it you become so much happier when you uh look at things in a more positive light.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_06: We are gonna talk about how you got out of it, so we are gonna get practical on this.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_06: Uh before we do though, I just want to kind of talk a bit about your eating disorder, if that's okay, because that was also so there you you had all this negative self-talk um and that was going on all the time for you, but a lot of it was about how you looked.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, and I mean I I've spoken online about how eating disorders obviously aren't all about the way you look.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_06: And I realized that as I was asking that question, yeah, I was connecting to things that I shouldn't have learned.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_07: No, but it but they become so focused on the way that you look, which is why there's this misunderstanding about them, and people think that an eating disorder is just an obsession with the way that you look and wanting to be smaller, because it does that's what I did.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_07: I kind of pushed my focus onto that, and it would have looked to everyone else like all I cared about was my weight and my size and the way that I looked, but actually, what that eating disorder was doing for me inside was trying to combat all of these horrible feelings about myself, trying to be perfect at something, trying to control my life, and so they absolutely, absolutely overlap.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, you say in it, you know, you say in the book that you felt your eating disorder was you didn't want to be a teenager because it was just too hard.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, and to be fair, when I think about being a teenager, if somebody offered me now to go back to being a teenager, I I wouldn't do it.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_07: I think that it's such a difficult period to live through.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_07: Obviously, as a young girl as well, your body's changing, your hormones are changing, you've got all of these new emotions, all of these new feelings, and then it happens at a time where you're kind of put into a different school environment, and girls start to become well, friendship groups can become unkind, and you've got to deal with all of that, all of the pressure, and then you've got all the pressure about actually your body looking perfect, your body, which has just changed, which is you've just kind of started getting used to.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_07: You start hearing all these things about how you should look a certain way, how your makeup should be a certain way, what's like the trendy hair to have, or the way even I remember at my school, it was like people would get kind of pushed out for not having a short enough skirt because like that wasn't cool, like things like that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_07: There was just so much to be thinking about all of the time that I'm really not surprised.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_07: I kind of fell into such an anxious mindset.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_06: You talk about thigh gap in the book.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_06: I don't think thigh for someone, you know, I'm 57, right?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm 57, and I think I did once have a thigh, but that thigh gap concept to me is so unbelievably alien, I kind of can't, but but for you it was a real sort of pressure and thing at school, wasn't it?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_06: No, it was a huge thing.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_07: I remember that, and also which this is kind of it's really icky now looking back on it, having like worked through my eating disorder.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_07: But I remember being in year six actually, and everyone was getting changed for PE.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_07: And we were all talking about whether we could see each other's ribs if we sucked in, things like that.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_07: That and year six, I shouldn't have been.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_07: How else year six?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_07: Ten.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_06: And you're talking about whether you can see each other's ribs.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_06: And thigh gaps.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_06: And thigh gaps scene that your legs don't touch at the top, which women's legs don't really touch at the top.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_07: And I think I think it's kind of well, I say it's kind of gone now.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_07: We seem to be launching back into a skinny talk, skinny idolization kind of situation online.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_07: But thigh gaps were a really big thing a few years ago, or maybe more than a few years ago, and it was a a big thing online as well, was like a sign of if you were skinny.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_07: And obviously, I feel like when you're a perfectionist, or if you have a brain that works the way mine does, you really look for black and white things, and that's something that you can kind of cling to and be like, this shows me that in your mind that I'm like doing well.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_06: But in your book, you are really clear that those things don't and not I'm not gonna I don't want to say don't matter because they do matter when they matter to you, they they really matter to you, but to other people, like you say in your book, I've never judged anyone by you know what whether they've got spots or not, or what grades they get, or you know, what size clothes they fit into, but yet you were worrying about those things.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I mean, and I think we all do it to ourselves.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_07: We talk to ourselves and think about ourselves in a way that we would never somebody else.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_07: Like, I don't if I think about my closest friends or my mum or any of my family members, I don't know how much they weigh.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_07: I don't know if they have a thigh gap, quite frankly.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_07: I don't care.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_07: I don't know if they've got spots.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_07: Like when I think about my friends, my first thought isn't their appearance.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_07: No, it's the time that we spent together, or if they make you laugh for it.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, it's it's what you do together or we but w when we're looking in on ourselves, we focus so much on our our exterior and not like what we bring to other people's lives, which at the end of the day is what everyone else thinks of us.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_07: They don't think of us as our appearance, they think of us as what we do for them and it the fact that we probably make them happy.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, one of the things, let me I'm gonna let me ask you this in um I want to ask this in a supportive way, but obviously a lot of that tension and pressure comes from social media, and I think it must be unbearable.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, I think back to my teenage years in the 80s, and they always say the past is a foreign country and the 80s.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_06: I've seen a few people smiling here, the 80s, you know, when we were growing up there, it it was so different to be a teenager.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_06: I can't even begin to tell you how different it it was back then, but you know, and but and then I would I think I would hate to be growing up with social media.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_06: And I was watching um a clip this morning on social media, obviously, about the impact of children's brains and development of scrolling and phones and things, but at the same time, you're a social media influencer.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_06: So, how do you balance that role between believe knowing that social media is responsible for quite a lot of that, but also at this at the same time, you're you're out there, you're on it.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_07: Well, this is a really difficult kind of thing for me because I obviously have my feelings about social media and how it can be so negative, and I think about the fact that I think I got Instagram first when I was like 11, and you start seeing all of these things that your brain's just not ready for, and I think social media at the moment the issue is the algorithms more than anything they bombard us with things that we can't process as humans, we can't go from such intense emotions, you know, like you're seeing a happy dog video, and then the next thing you're seeing about a dog dying or something like that.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_07: Like you just you can't, it's emotional whiplash constantly, and you can't process it.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_07: You're not you're not meant to be dealing with that much all the time.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_07: But then there's the side of social media, and the side that I found really helpful where I found people like me, and I found people that I could kind of look to for support, that I could get inspiration from, that actually were showing me a genuinely healthy way to live.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_07: And so my kind of thoughts on social media, and I was having this conversation recently about the social media ban that's yeah, do you support it or don't you?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_07: So it's different.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_07: I don't really know where I stand on it because 16 is obviously very young, but then I think about the fact that I got unwell at 14, 15, and that I could have looked to people online for genuine help and genuine support at that age, and that that would just go if it was to be banned.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_07: I think the issue is the companies that run it and the algorithms, because the way it started out was you chose who you followed, you had like a timeline of the people that you followed, and you'd only see what you wanted to see, but now your feed is bombarded with things that you haven't asked it to be.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_07: It's ads, it's random influences that you haven't asked to follow.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_07: It's like whatever is the most shocking and the most engaging is what they show you.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_07: And so I don't really think banning children from social media is the answer.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_07: I think it's more about the companies needing to control their algorithms and maybe take it back to a simple form, the way it the way it used to be, the way it was intended to be, to catch up with people that you knew.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, sometimes I can scroll through Facebook or whatever, and I hardly see a person who's an actual friend of mine.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_06: On there.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_06: Let's move on to talking about how you moved on, how you got yourself out from it, and that the all the positive messages there are in the book because the book is jam-packed with ideas, suggestions, little exercises, things you can do to help you get out of this.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, the turning point for you was you had an out-of-body experience, didn't you?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I which I wrote in detail about in the book, obviously.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I think it's difficult when you've struggled for a long time, and people who have been through eating disorders uh will probably know that denial is a huge thing.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_07: You can really convince yourself that oh, I'm not actually unwell, or everyone's kind of being dramatic, everyone's telling me I'm ill, but I'm not.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_07: Um and I kind of I'd been in that mindset for so long, that kind of but I but I don't look that unwell, but I'm not that unwell, but everyone's lying to me.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_07: And I'd got to such a low point in my life, you know, I'd lost almost everything.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_07: I couldn't go to school and get qualifications.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_07: Half of my friends had just moved on with their lives and kind of forgotten about me, which I can't blame them for that because I was away and I was stuck within myself, kind of fighting my own battles, and there's only so much other people can do.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_07: So I never blamed them for that.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_07: But yeah, I'd lost friends.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I didn't really have a relationship with my family because I didn't want to.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't want them to be concerned about me and have involvement in what I was doing to myself.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_07: And I kind of I remember I just kind of saw what my life was from the outside, and I felt like I was looking down upon this life that I'd built myself and just thinking, like, what am I doing?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_07: What what have I kind of become?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_07: What have I built myself?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_07: I I've built myself a kind of cage, I'm just trapped now, and that was what kind of made me realize that actually I could change, and the fact that I was seeing it for what it was, and I was seeing how small my life had become and how miserable I was, and that actually I was the one that had control over that.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_07: Obviously, eating disorders aren't a choice, I didn't choose to get ill, but I had control of getting out of that situation, and that was the turning point for me.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_06: So, talk to us about some of those things that, if you know, because we've got a lot of people here.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_06: If people are here thinking about this for themselves, or thinking about this maybe for their kids or for their friends, talk to us about some of those techniques that you used, which you cover in the book, to help you move on.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, so there's a lot of different things, and I think as you go through the journey, different things will be helpful, and other things will stop being helpful.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_07: One of the biggest things for me, because I was someone that was very obsessed with the way the way that my body looked, and if my weight was changing, I covered my mirror completely.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't let myself look at myself, and I kind of took myself out of that.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_07: And actually, I think that's really helpful because we see our reflections so often, and we see ourselves in phone cameras, and you walk around the house, there's probably multiple mirrors, and you see yourself, and you have all of that time to kind of scrutinize yourself, and and I just think that taking that away from myself made me not have to, and and I did find it anxiety-provoking.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_07: That was it was stressful because I really relied on kind of body checking and and making sure that I looked okay.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but that definitely was very freeing.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_07: I feel like another thing was not knowing my weight, which I really wanted the control, and I really wanted to know my weight, and I wanted to know if I'd gained or lost or whatever it was.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_07: But when I actually stopped knowing my weight and I stopped weighing myself, I did start to not care.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_07: And I never thought that that would happen.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't think that that would happen, but as the weeks went on, I realized that actually, you know, my body image wasn't really changing.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_07: Whereas when I would see my weight change, my body image would kind of change accordingly.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_06: You say in the book that your that how how you saw your body, which is why the mirror thing's really so important, bore no resemblance to actually kind of what the reality was.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_06: 100%.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I look back at pictures of myself now, and I'm I remember the way I thought I looked, and it they are worlds apart.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_07: They are two completely different people.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, the way that I thought I I looked, and actually why I was so angry that everyone was so concerned about me as well, it was just so different.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_07: I just couldn't see myself accurately, and I think a lot of people don't sort of realize that body dysmorphia is like a real thing.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_07: Like you see those um kind of pictures of someone stood in front of a mirror and then there's like a version of themselves that's eight times bigger in the mirror, but it's it's a lot more subtle than that a lot of the time.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_07: Like the more I focused on certain parts of my body, those would be the bits that were distorted in the mirror.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_07: Like I would focus on my thighs, and I would imagine that my thighs were so much bigger than they were, and I d you genuinely can see yourself completely differently.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_07: And I imagine it's so hard to understand if you've not if you've not had body dysmorphia, but 100% your brain can walk the way you see yourself.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_06: So you covered up the mirrors.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_06: Um, you also one of the other things, because you talk a lot about the feeling of shame that you had, you would say to yourself, I am proud of myself as well.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_06: Talk to us about that.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, so I think it's it was really kind of cringy to me at first, because I had a lot of therapists that would tell me, like, you know, what do you like about yourself and say something nice about yourself, and I'd just be like, ugh, stop.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_07: But then eventually I managed to, I got myself to a place where actually I just let it be neutral.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't tell myself that I had to be like my biggest fan and like a cheerleader for myself.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_07: I just said, you know, I don't have to love myself, but I need to accept myself, and so it became neutral.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_07: Like instead of looking in the mirror and being like, oh my gosh, I've broken out so much, I'm so spotty, I'm so ugly, I'd just look at myself and say, My skin has broken out, and it's just a statement, it's just a fact, and you know, I'm looking in the mirror and I'm acknowledging what I'm seeing, but if I'm not putting a judgment on it, that negativity already starts to go.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_07: Even if I think it at the back of my mind, you know, I'm I'm thinking that I look hideous or I hate myself or whatever.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_07: That if I'm not actually saying that and affirming it to myself, it starts to go.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_07: And over time, I started to be able to actually say things to myself that were nice.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_07: Like I could say that I'm proud of myself, and actually, I said that a lot in my early recovery that I, you know, I was proud of myself for the challenges that I was facing, and I do think that really helped because now I'm a person who, when I do something, like today, I was obviously a bit nervous knowing that I was going to be talking in front of people, but I know that later on I'll have done it and I I'll I'll have enjoyed it and I'll feel really proud of myself.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_07: And that's such a thing.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_06: So you should, so you should, because I can see people's reactions in it, and so you should.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_07: But that's such a nice feeling.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_07: Whereas in the past, I would have just brushed over it and gone, you know, if I'd have done something that actually was an achievement for me, I'd have just been like, Yeah, well, I shouldn't have even found it like stressful in the first place.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_07: Why did that stress me out?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_06: But I think it's really interesting what you were saying there about taking it in steps as well, because we do know that affirmations do work, we know that they um they release serotonin and they release those hormones in the brain, and that can make you feel a little bit better, and then if you keep telling yourself you feel a little bit better, then you release more serotonin, which makes you feel a little bit more better, you know.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_06: So we know that that works, but we also know that you have to, even though the brain doesn't know the difference between truth and fiction, which we know it doesn't, um that you do have to be able to feel what you're saying.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_06: And I think it's really interesting that you kind of went, okay, first I'm gonna go with a factual statement, because that doesn't hold emotion inside me, it's just a statement of fact, and then I can move on to something that does hold some emotion that's then gonna release a serotonin that's gonna start making me feel that bit better, and I think that's a really interesting phased approach to it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I I think taking it in steps is for was for me the way to go.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_07: Being a very all or nothing kind of black and white person, I I wanted to go zero to one hundred, I wanted to click my fingers and be fixed and be fine.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_07: That's never the way that it's gonna work because it's a process.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_07: If you've been talking to yourself negatively for so long, you're not gonna be able to just suddenly switch up.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_07: If you could, you would have done by now.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_07: So, kind of yeah, taking things in a phased approach, that's actually been the way I've I've always been successful at doing things.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_07: If I've tried to do things kind of cold turkey or just go for it 100%, I end up overwhelming myself and you can't, I can't just undo things.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_07: Whereas, yeah, phased approaches, they seem to work for me.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_07: Talk to us about possibility over probability.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, this is one of my favorites.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_07: This is probably the best thing I ever learned in therapy, actually.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_07: Um, the concept that you need to look at things from the probability that they're gonna happen over the possibility, because I would focus on things that were possible but extremely improbable, and that was something that stopped me from going out of the house.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_07: And if you don't if you don't kind of know my journey, I was basically agrophobic for a while.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_07: I was really scared of the outside world, and everything was terrifying.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_07: The thought of going on like public transport, the thought of walking down the road, all of it was so scary, and I'd have all of these kind of news headlines almost playing in my head.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_07: It would be like all of the worst things that could happen to me.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_07: And those were so improbable, but because they were possible, I I'd freak myself out about them and focus on them so much.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_07: So kind of being able to focus on the fact that actually no one can tell me that it's impossible.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_07: You know, me going outside and something bad happening to me is not impossible, but is it likely?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_07: Is it is it a probability?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_07: No, and that's what kind of got me out of the house and and made me able to go out in the world.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_06: And I know you kept notes of those things, didn't you, where you'd sort of think, okay, let me try and imagine and then go back and look what did actually happen.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I mean, I I remember doing uh graded exposure with a support worker and because you believe in that exposure therapy as well, don't you?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, oh 100 like 100% I do.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_07: Sorry, I'm like trying to fan myself and talk at the same time.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_07: No, I I think exposure therapy changed my life, and I have shared online about exposure therapy.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, there's so many different forms.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_07: In a way, recovery from an eating disorder is exposure therapy.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but exposing yourself to your fears a lot of the time is the only way to learn that that thing isn't scary, and that was so true for me going out and about.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_07: Um and yeah, I did I did a graded exposure, so I started off with really small things which now I wouldn't even think twice about.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_07: What sort of things like standing in my parents' porch and opening the front door?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_07: Because I that felt like I was opening myself up to the world, whereas now I can do the highest thing on my exposure list and it doesn't faze me.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_07: But back then that would have sent me into a huge panic.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_07: So yeah, I don't I I wouldn't be I literally wouldn't be sat here right now if I hadn't done exposure therapy.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and I guess um you would recommend to anyone if you've got anxiety, you've got challenges, any of those, to to go and get therapy, not to be scared of it, go and get it.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_06: 100%.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_07: I mean nothing bad can come from you seeking help for yourself.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_07: You deserve to have that support and you deserve to talk to someone about it.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_07: And obviously, there are challenges.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_07: It is hard to get an NHS therapist.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_07: It's really difficult.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_07: The waiting lists are so long, and counselling therapy is expensive.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_07: So I know that it's not as easy as just going to a therapist, but the difference that having that person, because they're outside your life as well, that they're on they're on the outside, they don't have an emotional connection to you, so you're much more able to just tell them things, and you know that there's no judgment.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_07: I don't I think it is it is so helpful, and also therapists that I've had have made me realize just how common the way that I think and the way that my brain works is because they're never shocked, they're never surprised by the fact that you think that way, and they've almost always had someone else that has thought the exact same way as you, so you don't you don't end up going in and feeling like a massive weirdo.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_07: It's it's always yeah, I think it's always worth it.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_06: We were talking before we came down as how um that that whole question of kind of relationship with food, because I had a problem with food the other way to you, i.e., too much of it, and I spent and I lost eight stone and I've kept most of it off for mo for 14-15 years later.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_06: But I think part of the reason I had was that I did I did a program where you were given food replacement, but weekly therapy, and every week, and I went for about five or six years, often um maybe a bit longer, to weekly therapy with other people who were the same, you know, in group therapy doing the same challenges, and we all had to learn how to cope in ways that were different, and you know, and though a lot of these things that you're talking about, you know, all those things through therapy, and there's lots of different kinds of therapy, but it really does make you think about how am I gonna deal with this?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_06: How could I deal differently?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_06: Gives you other ideas, gives you strategies, gives you thoughts, just and as you say, often just tiny little steps, you know.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_06: That um this week I'm gonna do this, or this week I'm gonna do something a bit different.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, and I think what therapy teaches you as well, and probably similar for you, is it's never about the food.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_07: It's always that you're using food to cope or to overcome something or to squash some kind of feeling that you don't want to be feeling, but it's never actually about the food, it is about what's going on in your brain, it is about the feelings, and that's why I'm such an advocate for that for therapy.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_06: Before we go to questions, so please everybody start thinking about the questions.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_06: Um, I think in here we have probably people who maybe are thinking about this for maybe members of their family, for their friends, um, as well.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_06: So, what message would you have if someone says a parent or uh an auntie or uncle or you know, or worries about someone else, what message would you have for them, Ro?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_07: I think to the parents of children with eating disorders or struggles with food or really low self-esteem, it's not something that you are meant to just understand.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_07: It is going to be really difficult, and that is okay.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_07: When I think about my parents having to go through that, I they they really struggled, they found it really difficult, but they always supported me.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_07: They didn't always understand, they couldn't always get why I was doing what I was doing or why I was feeling the way I was feeling, but they always were there for me and they they wanted to listen.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_07: I think that is the biggest thing.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_07: Just even if it it can be so frustrating, I imagine.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_07: It can be so it can probably make you feel quite angry because often your child's going to be doing something to themselves.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, you would feel so helpless, and that as a parent must be such a difficult feeling.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_07: But the best thing that I think you can offer your child, because you can't cure them, you can't click your fingers and fix them, just like unwavering support, just know them knowing that you will love them and be there for them no matter what, because it's gonna be a journey to get better and it's gonna be difficult, and you need people around you.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_07: So yeah, I think that's what I would tell parents.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_06: That's a lovely place for us to stop this bit before we go on to questions.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_06: So, who would like to ask a question or say something?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_06: Who's we've got someone here, we're gonna have a microphone if that's okay.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, um, thank you so much.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think you're absolutely amazing and you're so inspirational, and it's really nice to see somebody in real.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I think my question for you is on the days where you are feeling like more open and honest and you are struggling, how do you still make sure you're showing up for yourself and doing things that you want to do to make you happy?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_07: That's such a lovely question.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_07: And thank you.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_07: Um I mean, I I do still I am human, so I do still have days where I kind of get quite down on myself.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_07: It but the thing is that now I don't that that doesn't last, if you know what I mean.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_07: I can kind of nip it in the bud and tell myself that well, use my positive self-talk really.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_07: Um I think sometimes when I'm having a really bad day and I am struggling, uh it showing up for myself can just mean actually not doing very much because uh putting lots on my plate and maybe making lots of plans can actually overwhelm me more and make me feel like things are more difficult.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_07: So I think sometimes knowing that it's okay to slow down and to, you know, if you've got friends that will understand, kind of saying to them, either can you just come over to mine and we can have a chill, a chill day because I'm not really feeling up to going out, or just saying, Do you mind if we rain check and do this another day because I can't face it today?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_07: That's okay.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_07: Like you're if you are having a difficult day and you think that there's something that's going to make it easier for you, like for me, it would be kind of doing less, taking things a bit slower, do it.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_07: You're allowed to.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_06: Did you want to come back on that?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_06: Say no.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_06: Well, and I think that's really interesting.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_06: There was um a major, major piece of research which looked at all, it was a research of research, if you know what I mean, and it looked at what makes someone happy, and it it found out that all the research into happiness came up with um, I think it was five things, one of which was kind of living in the present, that you know, some of the things that we all know.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_06: But but one of them, which I thought was really interesting, it comes back a bit to your question and your answer there, was in the in this in the research of research, they they said one of the traits of happy people is that when they're feeling down, they give it a name.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_06: That was the phrase they used, and it's really interesting that a trait of genuinely happy people are that they allow themselves to not be happy, actually, that when they're feeling and they look and they maybe go, do you know what?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_06: Today I'm really fed up because you know, because of whatever it is.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_06: And ever since I've read that, I've kind of allowed myself to go some days, do you know what?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_06: Some days I'm just you know, because I spent I've spent years being positive, right?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_06: Really trying to be positive.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_06: And some days I just have to go, today, today is just crap, you know, really bad things have happened, or or whatever it is, and I'm just gonna go with it.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_06: And I think that's really interesting, that thing that actually happy people allow themselves to be down and be unhappy.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, because we're humans, we're meant to experience a range of emotions.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_07: I think a lot of people think that their baseline's meant to be really happy, but your baseline is just kind of you're doing fine.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, there's things that make you happy, and there's things that will make you sad, and you it's so okay to let yourself feel the whole range of emotions.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_06: And sometimes really bad things do happen.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you for that question.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_06: Let's move to another one.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_06: We'll get the mic.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_05: Um you sound like you do a lot of self-acceptance now.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um, do you do a lot of meditation or relaxation?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_05: Do you find that those things help?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, so I I'm not like a strict, I don't have a strict routine or do it every day kind of thing, but I usually go to it when I'm feeling quite overwhelmed.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_07: If my brain feels quite busy, I do actually find meditation really helpful, which is funny to me now because I remember when I was in like CAMS and when I was a teenager and they'd be like meditate, I'd just go like yeah, and what's that gonna do?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_07: But now I kind of think to like it's one of the first things I think to do.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_07: I've I do find it really, really helpful, kind of calming your body down, calming your mind down, letting your nervous system just have a bit of a break, I think.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_07: I yeah, I'm a I am a big fan of meditation.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_06: You do other stuff as well, you know, I don't know, um hypnotherapy or reflexology or EFT tapping or any of those kind of things.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_06: I've actually never done any of those.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I do yoga sometimes, but I've never done hypnotherapy or no tapping.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_07: But meditation, I mean I literally use like Headspace, the app that everyone probably knows about.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_07: Um and I just I just go for it, yeah.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_06: Do you want to pass the mic on the along this along there?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh hi.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it was a really good talk.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: I had a lot of like aha moments.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um yeah, I think it is common amongst loads of people, like negative self-talk and blaming yourself.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, you know, with uh how did you how long did it take you to put it into action?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you said you were by yourself and you it's like you're looking down on yourself.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: So how long did it take for that awareness then turn into action?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: And what type of therapy did you have?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have like cognitive behavioral therapy, like top-down therapy, or was it more somatic therapy that helped you get through this?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what I I've got another question.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_06: Take that one and then we'll come back to it.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I I um I'll try and answer all of them.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_07: Um I did have therapy.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_07: I did kind of eating disorder CBT.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_07: I would say that I found like the counselling side of things more helpful.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_07: I kind of took things upon myself when it came to changing things.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_07: I I actually started straight away as soon as I'd had that kind of that moment of reversation.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_07: Because I had to start straight away, otherwise I knew that I would get convinced the other way to not do it, and I would think about all of the reasons that I wanted to stay in this little bubble that I'd built myself.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_07: So I am, and maybe it is because as I was saying, I'm kind of all or nothing, but I once I have that thought and that change, I need to start putting it into action.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_07: Uh otherwise it probably won't happen.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that that's what really saved me was as soon as I had that realization, I was like, I've had this realization.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_07: I can't pretend to myself that I don't know what's going on, I can't pretend that I haven't had this thought, I need to act on it and I need to change things.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_07: So yeah, it was it was pretty much as soon as I'd had that.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_07: I then I think maybe I gave it a couple hours of just kind of thinking about things.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_07: But I remember FaceTiming my mum and saying to her, like, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get better, and she was kind of like, You've said that before, and I was like, No, like something's changed, I'm gonna get better.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_07: And I it was that the same day, so yeah.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I've got a new question, the other one.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so do you think it would because you said you don't want your family to suffer with you?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think someone like if you're seeing someone suffering, especially your kids for parents?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's very hard, even your spouse, it's very hard to stay back on the fringe and kind of like be there for them, but not actively push them to want to get better and suggest that this might help, this might help.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think if your family did that, I don't know if they did that or not, your friends do you think that would have like um stopped you uh wanting to get better?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or would it have to come from you?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like if someone else is suffering, the advice that you gave, would you want family and friends?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: You said the most important thing was that they were there to listen to you and maybe not to give you advice.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think if someone was pushing you, you it would the realization would have come to you a lot later, and maybe it would have um been an obstacle to you getting better that it had to come from you and you had to be the protagonist in your own journey to like galvanize into action your own thoughts?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_07: It definitely had to come from me, and I think that's probably so frustrating to hear because when you feel really helpless and you feel like you want to help someone that you can't help or isn't listening to you, all you want to do is give them advice and and try and fix it for them.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_07: But you you can't with something like what I went through, so an eating disorder, like I had to find the strength within myself, and I my parents and my family were very supportive and tried to do all of the things that they tell you will help all of the things that are suggested.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_07: They did all of that, but I was so locked into this mindset that I didn't I didn't want any help.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_07: I wanted to push them away.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_07: So actually, I do think the more the more that they tried to kind of push things on me, I just pushed them further away.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_07: Um the the biggest support I would say I got from them, as I was saying earlier, is knowing that they loved me and that they would be there for me and that they didn't kind of hate me or blame me for what I was going through.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_07: But yeah, I don't I do think the more that they pushed things on me, the more I kind of our relationship got strained and I pushed them away.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_06: Go on.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, go on, and then we'll go over there.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and with the let's self-like blaming, when you were growing up, like reflecting back, do you think you were more of a quiet child, more of a quiet person wanting to fit in, like you were talking about fitting in?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um found it hard because like this kind of disorder, like you're saying, it's like something that you can control where maybe you didn't stand up for yourself, maybe you were a bit more introverted, and and when you think about school, you said that thing stood out to you where you said the things that were unkind and you knew they were unkind, and you were like, Why did I say those things?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, to fit in.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find that with your personality, maybe like because you identified your behaviour not separate to your identity, you put them together?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas as you got older, you were able to separate them and then stop blaming yourself.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think sometimes people go from blaming other people then to blaming themselves, like put I find that personally hard for myself, like to stop blaming myself.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I'm I'm forgiveness is such a uh big thing for me, and the thing is as well, is it's not just myself that I forgive from that situation, it's those girls as well, because we were all just children, we were all just doing our best with what we had at the time, and I don't blame them for that situation, and I don't blame myself.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I definitely think I was a more quiet child, and I do think I was quiet, but I had so much going on in my head all the time.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_07: Um, friendship kind of issues made that ten times worse as well.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_07: But that was what kind of led to me needing control, I think.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_07: That was what I just felt so overwhelmed all the time, and so yeah, my eating disorder kind of provided a way out of that.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_07: Well, it didn't, but I thought it was kind of providing a way out of that for me.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: I I had uh Ro um I can relate a lot to what you're saying.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um I've struggled with an eating disorder since I was about 14, um and I've struggled to get over it, and each time I keep relapsing, it's the I suppose it's the the physical side of it, um like bloating.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know if you've experienced bloating, but the doctors don't seem to um understand that that's what keeps throwing me back in.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do I um differentiate between bloating and feeling fat, if that makes sense?
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_07: That was something I really struggled with as well.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_07: I think that's so common, especially when you've maybe not given your body enough food for a while, your body then gets a bit kind of shocked by the fact you're eating normally, although you're trying to give it a good amount of food.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_07: I I really struggled with bloating, and actually something that my therapist really like got ingrained into my brain was that bloating is your body digesting food.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_07: Like it happens because those processes are going on inside your body, and it's not the same thing as you know, being like you've gained it's not like you've gained weight immediately.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_07: I think I used to get into this mindset where I'd eat my dinner and then I'd be like, Oh my god, I can literally see that I've gained weight, but it's not, it's because you've got food sat in your belly.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_07: Like if you look at the food on your plate, it's it takes up space, it's gonna take up space inside you, and that is okay.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_07: That's it's the it's the natural, normal human body function.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_07: And nobody, nobody, even the people that you see that have these flat stomachs or whatever, if they eat, they're gonna have some level of bloating.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_07: It is just human nature.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_07: Um, yeah, and that that was how I kind of got through it.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_06: Thank that was very honest of you.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you for sh for sharing that.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_06: Was there anything else you wanted to?
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, not just just thank you.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's good.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_06: And we've got down here as well.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_06: Thanks.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_06: And then I'll say go to the lady and then I'll come to you.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_04: Hi, Ro.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the question I have is about ADHD.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder if um the D ADHD had been diagnosed earlier, that some of your anxiety would have lessened and that would have helped.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_07: I think so.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I obviously can't find out because I can't go back, but I imagine that it would have done because a lot of that anxiety kind of came from me thinking that there was like something wrong with me and that I didn't I didn't fit in, and I didn't the way people just knew how to do life didn't make sense to me, and I just felt like there was something really wrong with me, and that obviously made me really anxious because I felt like if I didn't like blend in or do my best to blend in at all times, I it was going to be obvious that there was I was weird or whatever, and yeah, that that definitely fed into my anxiety.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_07: I imagine it also fed into friendship issues that I had.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_07: Um just the constant chaos in your brain, it that's enough to make your nervous system dysregulated and make you stressed and make you anxious.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_07: So I do I do think, and I do get sad about it sometimes, really.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_07: I think what a shame that I couldn't have known that about myself and not had to feel like I stuck out or like there was something wrong with me as a kid.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_06: But did you say was that through CAMS?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_06: Is that what you said, Jess?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_06: Was that through CAMS that you got the diagnosis or no?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_07: So it was first, it was kind of the overlap between CAMS and adult services.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_07: I was on the waiting list for a long time.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but it was suggested by CAMS and then happened when I was.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_06: CAMS, of course, child and adolescent mental health services for anyone who doesn't know.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, um, but yeah, it wasn't it wasn't CAMS.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_06: But it was definitely as you were either an adult or approaching that.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that that's when it was first kind of mentioned to me as a possibility.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_07: And I remember it when they first mentioned it, I was like, no, that's not me.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_07: And then I started reading into women with ADHD, and I was like, oh, yeah, it all makes sense.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_06: So we've got one last question here.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you for that, and then that'll be our last one.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Rory, you you talked about the experience uh as a very, very young girl, uh, and the experience of trying to make friendships as a as a young girl, and the uh uh and the negativity that there was often around uh uh girl groups, uh uh and uh and I would add to that boy groups as well.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I wonder, is there a place uh in very early years education in actually teaching kids, if it's possible, teaching them kindness, teaching them the ability to listen to others, the ability not to judge, the ability to accept other people as they are.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm afraid there aren't there aren't many spaces in our curriculum at present at that early early years level for teaching that.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm wondering if if you had that uh if you had that kind of education and you had the support of your friends at that critical time, would that have made a difference to you?
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_07: Thank you.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_07: What a lovely question.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_07: Thank you.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, a lovely question and a really lovely idea.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_07: I think that's such a needed thing.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, children kind of seem to, at least when I was at school, bounce off each other, and if everyone was being mean to one person, they'd all just copy each other and be like that.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_07: And I think it would be so lovely if there was some kind of education about actually the impact that you could be having on that person, because maybe that would be the thing that made them stop.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_07: If they realized just how damaging their words and their actions and excluding people was, maybe they wouldn't they wouldn't do it.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_07: So yeah, I definitely think the curriculum needs more education around not just being kind to each other and and the way we talk to each other, but actually the impact that you have on other people's lives, because I think people often think of themselves, especially as a kid, I guess you don't really know anything outside of your own little world, but you kind of think of yourself as an individual, and you often forget what a great impact, a huge impact you can have on other people's lives.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_07: So, yeah, and who knows, maybe if that had been an option when I was a child, girls wouldn't have been as mean, and maybe they wouldn't have it wouldn't have been the way it was.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but yeah, I d I I like that idea a lot.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_06: I do know it's it's empathy and um meditation and kindness and relationships are taught in other countries, and I certainly Scandinavia it's part of that, and certainly other countries as well, where where that where that does happen routinely for young people.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_06: We've come to the end of our time row.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_06: You have been utterly fantastic, so open, and everybody I can see is completely and utterly been focused throughout this hour on what you've had to say.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you so much for coming to Bradford.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_06: You are going to be signing books in the hub, the tent outside.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, yep.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_06: We'll we'll get a quick photo before we finish, but can everybody please give a massive round of applause to Laura Lipsman?