Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 785: The Meaning of Adult Attachment with Dr. Sue Johnson

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Episode 785: The Meaning of Adult Attachment with Dr. Sue Johnson · The Trauma Therapist

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Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson. My
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mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in who
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we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating authenticity,
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genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more about
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my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com. That's
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the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, all right, Sue,
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here we go, so five four, three, two and one,
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our folks, welcome back to the podcast. I am thrilled to have my
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guest today, doctor Sue Johnson. Sue, welcome to the podcast. I'm
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so happy to be here. Thank you. Shu Johnson is a leading innovator
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in the field of couple therapy and adult attachment. She's a primary developer of
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emotionally focused Couples and Family Therapy or EFT, which is demonstrated its effectiveness in
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over thirty years of peer reviewed clinical research. She's the author of numerous books,
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including Hold Me Tight, The Hold Me Tight Workbook, and Love Sense,
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who's received numerous awards acknowledging her development of EFT, including the Apes Family
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Psychologists of the Year in twenty sixteen and the Order of Canada in twenty seventeen.
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All Right, Sue, welcome. Great to have you here. My
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gosh, obviously you're someone I've been wanting to have on this podcast forever,
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so it's really a thriller and an honor to have you joining me today.
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Hey, I'm delighted to be here. So before we get going, share
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with the listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently? You mean,
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now I am. I'm on the West coast of Canada in Victoria.
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It's raining and it will probably be raining for the next six months, but
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it's the most beautiful place to live in the world. And I'm Canadian.
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But our work is really international. We're teach in forty countries. It's gone
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all over the world. We have centers all over the world. We have
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ninety centers. Teach My Stuff and Hold Me Tight, which is the book
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for the public. I just can't believe it. It's just done it again.
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It's translated everywhere, and it seems to be helping couples around the world
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to create good relationships basically, I think because it actually gives a picture of
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what a good relationship looks like and how to actually get there, which in
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all our nonsense about relationships our present world, I think people are very hungry
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for that. So I'm all over the place, but I live here in
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the beautiful forests and the mountains and the sea in Victoria. Awesome. I'm
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really excited to get to talking about that. Amy said something that really struck
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me, you know, talking about relationships and how to get there. Well,
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we will get to that, But first, Sue, how did this
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start for you? How did this? That's obviously a passion I wanted.
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I really I want to hear how things started for you. Oh? Well,
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you know, I was doing my doctorate and I had very clear ideas.
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I knew, for example, that most of from my point of view,
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most of psychotherapy didn't use the most powerful thing in the room, which
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is emotion. Emotion is the core organizing feature that organizes puts together, structures
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your inner experience and the way you dance with others. And really, I
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think psychotherapy has been quite ambivalent about emotion. Most psychotherapy is about coping with
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it and seeing it as an enemy, and I was always very clear that
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it was powerful, that it was the heart of everything, and that the
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only way to get real change, not just a few symptoms here and there,
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real change, was to go into this emotion, understand it, and
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work with it. So I had biases, you know, I was Rogerian.
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I believed in non pathologizing and listening to people. I believe that people
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had very good reasons for what they did. I just had to find the
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logic and the order in that. So I had some biases. But basically
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I'd done almost every other kind of therapy, and I started working with couples
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and I found that I was completely ineffective, and so I thought, oh,
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oh, oh, oh, wait a minute. Then ah, right,
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So you know, you know, when you're a graduate student, you
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think everything is in the library if you can just find it. Well I
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went. I went all over the library and I read everything a love marriage
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and it was all rubbish. Okay, it didn't help me at all.
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And people said, oh, you teach your couple's communication skills. Well,
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the trouble with that is you can only use them when you're not all hot
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under the collar and freaked out of your mind, right, so it doesn't
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really work. So I just got desperate and decided to tape all my sessions.
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My sweet couples allowed me to, and I became this maniac. I
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was. I was a maniac graduate student. Okay, I was. I
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was gone. Okay, I was. I became this maniac graduate student watching
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tapes again and again and again, and it was az like it. It
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became very clear to me that, of course there's a structure to relationships.
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Of course there's a structure to our emotions and how we communicate. And look,
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you can see these patterns, and you can see that some patterns lead
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people into desperation and loneliness and isolation and anger and shut down. And there
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are other patterns that lead people out into more openness, more balance, more
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connection. And I started working with these patterns. Okay, let me pleasure
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it there. So get specific. What do you mean patterns of emotion that
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lead people out? Give me an example. Well, for example, if
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you look at most distressed couples in North America, particularly couples that are working
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with trauma, and we see over the years, I've seen many, many,
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many couples working with trauma. Okay, if you look at them,
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in North America. Mostly what they're caught in is what we call blame withdraw.
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One person is getting angry and saying, you don't talk to me,
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where are you? What's wrong with you? How come you don't do this?
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The other person is defending and shutting down. The more they shut down,
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the angrier the other person gets. I mean, that's a very simple
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way to describe it. But if you look, you can look at that
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a thousand ways communication skills. I wouldn't do that. I'm an attachment theorist.
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I believe in attachment science, which is in the last twenty years has
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basically told us who we are very clearly, and I think you need that
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as a guide to any kind of good therapy. And what attachment says is
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yes, on one level, this is about your irritation and shut down,
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but actually, if you really listen, if you really listen, there's desperate
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emotional priorities going on there where one person is really saying. If you really
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understand attachment, one person is saying, where are are you? Where are
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you? Are you? Where are you? I'll force you to respond to
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me where are you? Where are you? Because if you don't respond,
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I don't matter. I'm alone and we don't have a relationship, and I'm
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massively unsafe because I'm a bonding, social human being and I need to know
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you respond to me. That's my main survival que in the world. And
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so I'm screaming, where are you? But it doesn't sound like that.
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It sounds like you never right, And the other person is saying, I'm
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rejected, I'm not wanted, I'm a failure. I can't do this.
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I'm overwhelmed. I don't know what to do. I'll just hunker down.
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I'll hunker down. I'll hunker down and wait for it to stop. I'll
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shut her out. I'll shut down. And of course, the more that
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person shuts down, the more alone and desperate the other person feels. If
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you are dealing with trauma at the same time, I invite you to think
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about the fact that what attachment science says is that emotional isolation is iatrogenic for
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human beings. We're not wired for it. We can't do it. Basically,
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we're lousy at it. But if you add a few demons in there
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emotional isolation and you feel helpless, your main survival code is to call for
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others and have them come and no one's coming. You're all alone. If
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you also have some demons in the room that are hijacking your brain, that
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are telling you the whole world is dangerous, that are telling you that there's
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no solution to this vulnerability, well then you're in a total existential pickle and
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you do really desperate things like as I told the Canadian Army, and they
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basically believe me, which was great. As I told the Canadian Army,
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they said, well, we don't want to as we want you to help
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us with our families, because we don't our soldiers to commit suicide. I
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said, do you understand that, I think in those days, I don't
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know what it is now, eighty percent of our soldiers commit suicide in the
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two weeks after their partner has left them. And do you understand that you
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set up their partner leaving them. And of course these guys looked at me
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like I was a lemon. Okay, I said, you don't help them.
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You don't even help the partners understand that the man who goes away on
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deployment is not necessarily the man who comes back. You don't help the partner
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know how to respond. You know, the partner just says, who are
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you? This nice guy went on deployment and now you're like freaked out,
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you know, a hyper hyper sensitive, angry or numb. Who the hell
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are you? You know? And of course nobody helps. So the best
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predictor of recovery from trauma by far, and this is a lot of what
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I say sounds like opinion, Please believe me, it's not. Its research.
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The best predictor of recovery from trauma is a secure connection with another person
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that you can turn to that gives you a safe haven, secure base.
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And we knew that with couples. We work with trauma couples for years.
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Recently, I've gone into the field of individual therapy. We do e FIT
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emostly focused individual therapy. A primer came out last year, the primer in
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e FIT, and we focus a lot, a lot on trauma because even
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though I've been known as a couple's therapist, I and my colleagues have always
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seen traumatized individuals. For me, particularly war vets, but also particularly complex
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PTSD, where people have been so abused in their childhood good that it isn't
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just a wound, you know, trauma comes from the Latin word to wound.
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It isn't just a wound. It's a wound that has interfered with their
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basic ability to develop any kind of balanced sense of self, any kind of
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competent sense of self, any ability to regulate their emotions. It's interfered with
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those developmental processes. So as they go through life, they're caught, and
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we call it the trauma trap. They're caught in not knowing how to regulate
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their overwhelming emotion because PTSD is basically an emotional disorder. That's what it is.
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Not knowing how to regulate their overwhelming emotions and doing it in dysfunctional ways
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that then make everything worse and feedback into the trauma. You know, addiction
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is one of them. But you know this is a trap. The way
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you protect yourself because you've never really had any balanced, safe place to learn
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about who you are and to learn how to befriend your emotions and deal with
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them and order them and use them as a compass. The way you protect
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yourself becomes a prison which feeds right back into your trauma. And you know
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that's what happens with distressed couples, the way they protect themselves. You know,
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getting angry. Shutting down feeds right back into how alone they both feel
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and how desperate they both feel, and their negative behaviors. Right, So
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let me see jump in here for a second. So you know you were
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talking about you provide an example of the couple in the room and them kind
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of talking and kind of getting angry and maybe yelling, going back and forth,
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and you said something, you said, you know, some people this
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could be viewed many ways. One could view it as an imperfect communication and
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we need to adjust how they're communicating. And I thought that was really interesting.
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And then you you looked at it through the ef T lens. But
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when you're working with a couple and you're looking at them with this ef T
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lens, I'm curious, was you know what attracted them in the first place.
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Was it their kind of need for each other's the way they dealt with
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their own emotions, you know, like they needed that other person. But
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now here they are, maybe several years down the road, and it's that
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exactly that's causing them to have this kind of difficulty and so forth. Now,
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I don't think of it like that. I think of it that we
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all have the same attachment tells us. We all have the same basic needs
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and fears as human beings. We all need to connect. We all need
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to know that if we call, someone will come, someone who sees us,
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who cares about us, who were important to We all need to know.
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So falling in love is kind of a you know, sexual attractions very
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useful, but falling in love is sort of a universal thing that we all
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do seeking this emotional connection with another human being. And then I think you're
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in a dance and you're playing emotional music, and maybe you've never even seen
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what a good relationship looks like. You don't even know what a good relationship
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looks like. You're just you're just playing the emotional music, you know,
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and you hurt each other and you alienate each other, and things go wrong
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and you get stuck, and we all get stuck. We all get stuck
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in relationships, we all get stuck in life, in dealing with our basic
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overwhelming vulnerability. You know, we don't We have brains that don't like uncertainty
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and unpredictability and no solution vulnerability. So we're always seeking ways out of that.
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So I think it's just kind of a natural thing. I think that
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the thing that distresses me a bit is that even though hold Me Tight is
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so successful and we have hold Me Tight, we have the hold Me Tight
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online program ww dot hold Me Tight Online that you can do in your own
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home with your partner, and it's used all over the world. Even so,
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I think people are starving for connection. In our world. We're lonelier
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and lonelier and more and more depressed. And really, as far as I'm
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concerned, we should be teaching attachment in school. We should be looking at
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building, teaching kids in school how to build communities, how to reach for
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each other, how to support each other, and we should be showing pictures
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of what a good relationship looks like. And if you look at our world,
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my goodness, me, most eleven year old kids get exposed to pawn
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Mike, are you kidding? And this is when they're impressionable as hell.
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You know, it's not about misinformation. It's about, from my point of
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view as a relationship orientated therapists, it's about toxic lies. And people are
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saying, tell me what a good relationship looks like, tell me how to
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get there, and instead we give them oh things like well, you can't
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have good sex if you're very familiar with somebody. This is nonsense, This
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is a lie. The research says the opposite. But the people who have
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the best sex of the people who are happy in long term relationships. So
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you know, there's so much rubbish out there. We just get confused and
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lost, and then we talk about that. What does a good work I
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mean, obviously there are many examples, but what does a good relationship look
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like? What does a healthy relationship look like? It's a secure bond,
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a secure bond, which and all the research says, if you have a
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secure bond, even with just one person, you are more resilient to trauma,
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you are more resilient to stress, You are healthier, you feel better
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about yourself, you have a more competent sense of who you are you.
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I mean, it goes on and on and on. It's associated with every
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mental health, good, good thing that you can imagine. Okay, but
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what it basically looks like? And we do it in our therapy. We
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create these what we call hold me tight conversations. We help people show how
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they freak each other out and how they get stuck in these negative patterns,
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and then we blame the pattern, not them. We say, oh,
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you're both caught up in this dance, and for very good reasons. And
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then they start to see the pattern and they start to not demonize each other.
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Then when there's a certain sense of safety and balance, we go in
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and we help them take risks. And what it basically means hold me tight
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conversation is that you feel safe enough with another person that you can go in
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and touch your emotions, your vulnerability, and you can go in and make
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sense of it, and you can share that you can reach to the other
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person in a way that pulls that person close to you. All right,
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let's just pause here for a second to thank our sponsors. All Right,
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we are back. So, you know, the woman who's screaming and yelling
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at her partner, and he's got PTSD, so when she screams and yells
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at him, he's absolutely on the ceiling. She's screaming and yelling at her
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partner. She's able, in our therapy and in the hobby type conversations to
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turn and say to him, well, I do scream at you. I
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do. I get so desperate. I'm so desperate. I feel so alone
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here. I feel like I've lost you already, that you don't need me,
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and you don't see me, and I get so scared. I don't
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know what to do, so I scream and yell at you and get mad
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and I don't know what to do. I'm just so scared. And her
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partner, who's never heard this. Sometimes the partner needs help to like what
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why? Who? Are you right? Right? But the partner is like,
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if we've done a job right? The partner is moved open and says,
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I don't want you to be scared. I didn't know you felt that
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way. I don't want you to be scared. What do you need?
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And you know we're basic as human beings. The woman bursts into tears and
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says, I need to know I matter to you, And he weeps,
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and he says, the reason I shut down so quickly is because you're the
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most important thing in the world to me, and you matter so much.
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If you translate this into individual therapy for trauma, often what you will find
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us doing in therapy, and I've talked about this in the primer for if
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It, you will see us going in and helping the adult competent person who's
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in the session with you, who the therapist has resourced and helped to feel
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strong, going in and talking to the traumatized child, you know, and
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doing the same thing like my latest warvet, I remember saying to him,
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So all this terrible shaming, terrible things you say to yourself really started at
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twelve. At eleven, can you see an little eleven year old towel?
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And first of all, he's in his head. He doesn't want to go
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there, he says. No, therapists are stupid. They're always persuading me
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to think something else when what I think is true. Okay, I understand,
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can you see an little eleven yeold? Nevertheless, can you see a
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little eleven year old towel? I want him on an emotional level because there
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I can move him. And he says, no, I can't see him.
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No I don't I don't see his face. He's a ghost. No,
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I can't see him. Will we move and walk and walk around so
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you can't see him? Oh? I think I can see him. It
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seems to me he's you know, so gradually, gradually I say can you
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see an little eleven year old time he says yes, I can see him.
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I say, okay, so here he is. He's he's scared and
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he's and he's trying so hard to please his father and his brother and his
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mother, and they all want different things. And he's lost, and he's
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scared, and he doesn't fit in, and he's lost, and he's telling
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himself what these dreadful things? He's a traitor and he's disgusting. Right,
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What doesn't a little eleven year old tell feel? And this great big guy
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who's resisted me for ten sessions and told you have to work to resist me
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for ten sessions, believe me. So, and this great big guy who's
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resisted me for ten sessions stops, Thank goodness, he doesn't say, I'm
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in a deep existential crisis. You don't seem to understand. Yes, I
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understand. Let's go and look at a little eleven year old tel Finally he
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stops, and he says he feels sad. I say, yes, he
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feels sad. And we stay there and we walk around in that, and
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I say, what would you like to do to help him? So I
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don't know nobody ever helped him. I don't because self compassion for this man
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is like foreign. He doesn't even know what it looks like. Okay,
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so he beats himself up all the time. Finally he says what people always
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say, we're so, we're a human family. Okay, there's a map
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to human beings. It's called attachment. And in all our research we've had,
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we've done so much research over the last thirty years, I've got a
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map when I'm in therapy, so i know where I'm going. I say,
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what would he like to do? And this man is great, big,
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self denigrating, tough man says, he holds him. So yes,
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and you go in and hold him, and can he tell you it feels
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good to be held? This is like the couple's process. It's the same,
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but it's with parts of self, right with the most vulnerable part of
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self and the self that can have the resources to comfort and hold an order.
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And so he goes in and he holds him, and you know that
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man moved. Oh he moved from constant rage to being hijacked all the time,
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to not being able to relate to his family, to depression. I
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mean depression goes hand in hand with with PTSD. We know that he moved
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into balance and into self compassion. If you know how to work with emotion,
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if you have a map, this is the essence of eft where you're
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working with couples or individuals, especially in trauma. If you know how to
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work with emotion and you have a map to where you're going, it is
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so powerful. Our research says you can create so much profound change in such
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a short time. I mean, we have thirty years of research. If
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I made Sue, it feels listening to you talk, it feels like you're
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describing bringing the person back to true north in a sense. Yes, that's
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a nice image. That's a nice that's a lovely image. Yeah, it
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feels like you're kind of realigning their soul the organism. Why do we stray
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from you know, why are we shooting this bickering and fighting and below that
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is the longing for attachment, the lost attachment, the unattachment. Why are
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we straying from that? Why do we not want to or are we hiding
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that? In a sense, Well, we're complicated human beings and our society
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hasn't exactly validated. Our society still says a strong adult is independent, able
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to be separate, uh, you know, making choices on their own and
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you know, able to put their emotions aside. This is horseshit. Okay,
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that's not a strong adult. That's somebody waiting to be knocked off their
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perch. A strong adult from an attachment point of view, because attachment is
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a developmental theory of personality that is also totally useful for the therapist from an
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attachment point of view, A whole secure person who has a secure relationship with
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themselves and with others and so can keep their balance in the world and deal
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with whatever's happening. A whole secure person knows they're vulnerable, knows what that
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vulnerability looks like, accepts it. That's why I'm a human being. Your
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human beings do not do well alone. They're not wide for it. Your
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nervous system isn't wide for it. It's not because you're weak or strong,
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you're just not wide for it. You're a social bonding animal. Okay,
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So, really strong human beings who are resilient trauma, and the research on
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this is huge, knows their vulnerabilities, can accept them and cope with them,
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and can tune into their own emotions, trust their emotions as a compass,
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befriend them, listen to them, order them, and can tune into
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other people and turn to other people as a resource. They can reach for
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other people. They can reach you. No towel now can reach when he
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starts to blame himself, he can find that secure adult part of him that
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he found in therapy with me, and he can turn and comfort that little
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eleven year old boy instead of saying, Oh, that little eleven year old
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boy. You know, I can't see him. He doesn't exist. He's
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a ghost. He's a ghost. He doesn't matter. He's he's he was
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the traitor. He was a no no, no, no, no,
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middle eleven year old boy. Is is a valuable part of you. It's
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a sad part of you. It's the part of you that never got seen.
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So of course you can't see you. Why would you be able to
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see you? Nobody ever saw you? Did they tell nobody ever saw you.
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For the first twenty years of your life. You spent your whole life
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desperately trying to carve yourself into the image of what your family wanted. They
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all wanted different things, of course, which is that's crazy making, right,
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that's complex PTSD. Right. You know his brother wanted him to be
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the national hero in the army. You know his father wanted him to be
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shut down and compliant and never know, never asked for anything. His mother
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wanted him to be a child constantly dependent on her, never never, never,
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never leaving her, hanging on to her. Well, you know,
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this young boy just most of the time, if you listened to him,
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he was alone. He spent his whole childhood playing video games to get out
30:12
of all this. But he can't in the beginning, he can't even formulate
30:18
these things, right. We so many of us walk around really not knowing
30:22
who we are on an emotional level until something traumatic happens to us that knocks
30:26
us off. So our society doesn't give us a healthy view of what human
30:33
beings are. It doesn't give us a healthy view of relationships, and we
30:37
get lost and stuck. You know, relationships are complicated, Your emotions are
30:41
complicate. Life's complicated. It takes over us all and we all get stuck.
30:45
We all get stuck. Therapist gets stuck, you know. I mean,
30:49
here, I am talking to you, and I can tell you,
30:53
you know, an incident. I use it when I teach where you know,
30:57
I had the most enormous, terrible, embarrassing fight with my seven year
31:02
old son on a Saturday morning in Starbucks in my local community where everybody knew
31:06
who I was. Well, you have to say, well, so you
31:10
know better than that? No, actually I don't, because because I got
31:14
real upset and I lost it and I attacked him and then the whole thing
31:21
went to hell. And I'm just caught in the emotional dance because I'm a
31:26
human being and my emotions. My emotions are the most powerful thing, right
31:32
They color my world. They organize my thoughts, they organize my actions,
31:37
and if I can't befriend them and make sense of them, I'm in trouble.
31:42
So you know, me the therapist, you know, start screaming,
31:51
screaming at my son in Starbucks on Saturday morning because I'm a human being,
31:55
and but I have to tell you. We resolved it, which is wonderful.
32:00
Who resolved it? My son? Who? Bless him? Bless him?
32:04
My son turned around after the fight and said to me, hey,
32:08
Mom, that conversation didn't go too well, did it. And then I
32:15
started in a different place. I started with the desperation and the vulnerability instead
32:22
of the why are you? I started with I'm terrified that you're failing your
32:30
whole school. I'm terrified, and you won't talk to me about it,
32:32
and I don't know what to do about it, and I feel helpless.
32:36
I started there and we had a whole different kind of conversation because I'm what
32:42
we call ar accessible, responsive, and engaged. That's what a good relationship
32:46
looks like. I'm opening up to him and reaching for him. And he
32:52
said, oh. He said, well, actually, I've already failed everything,
32:58
so maybe I should have told you. And I'm scared to death too,
33:00
so we're both scared. The interesting thing is when we're both scared and
33:06
we know that by the time we'd walk six blocks to get home, we'd
33:13
resolve the whole thing and made a plan for the future, Whereas for eighteen
33:15
months before that, we can hardly talk to each other because I would always
33:20
start with, excuse me, I don't think you've done your heart right,
33:24
and he would roll his eyes and I would say, oh, you know,
33:29
just roll your eyes. You know, I'm just your mother, you
33:30
know, what do I matter? And we're off, right, we're off,
33:34
but we're sensitive, and nobody really teaches us how to use our emotions
33:42
or listen to them. Nobody really teaches us how to connect. I mean,
33:45
right now, personally, I think We're in the most disastrous social experiment
33:50
in human history. We're actually teaching kids not to look at faces, but
33:55
to stare at screens. I do not know what we think is going to
34:00
happen, but I think it's going to be a complete disaster. It's the
34:04
opposite of what we should be doing. If we want healthy human beings who
34:09
can deal with difficult traumatic experiences, this is not the way to go.
34:14
But that's Hey, we're a capitalist society. This is the way to make
34:19
money. This is the way we're going. So you know, let me
34:22
ask you this too. As we kind of wind down here. You said
34:24
so many things that I've got to have you back because there's so much to
34:29
talk about. But is it is it possible for you know, thinking about
34:36
our listeners here who are listening to this, and we're kind of talking about
34:38
relationships here, is it possible for one person in the relationship to be accessible
34:46
that you said that you use that our ar e. What is this going
34:50
on here? All that are our acronym accessible, responsive, and engaged?
34:59
Are you there for me? Are you there for me? Is the big
35:01
question in all relationships. Are you there for me? If the answer is
35:06
no, everything starts to go sideways. So that's the big question. So,
35:13
yeah, AAR. Is it possible for one person to be AAR and
35:16
the other person not what and to have a successful relationship? Well, no,
35:22
I mean, at various times people will be more accessible and responsive than
35:27
others. You know, I've been married to my partner for thirty six years.
35:31
At various times I might be more open than him. However, and
35:37
there's a certain point where if I'm really going to make a bid for his
35:43
attention and caring, I need him to be able to respond. So I
35:47
can't do a relationship on my own. It's a dance. It's a dance,
35:53
and it's around dealing with your fears, vulnerabilities, and needs and longings
36:00
in a way that pulls the other person closer rather than pushing them away,
36:04
and that makes you stronger, of course, But no, people have to
36:08
be able to at least join their partner in that dance to a certain extent.
36:14
You know, people have different levels I need. I mean, you
36:20
know, look at all my work. I need a more accessible, responsive,
36:23
engaged man than many many many women do. I do. So it's
36:29
johnny good that I married one. Although I don't think you mind me saying
36:35
we both changed a lot and we've both grown each other up, and I'm
36:38
not sure. I think the first couple of years we weren't that good at
36:43
it. We didn't know each other very well. We got married very fast,
36:45
and the first couple of years were rather rocky. But we've gone through
36:51
a lot of trauma together and that in those traumatic, overwhelming experiences where we
37:01
lose our balance, we've always been able to be there for each other and
37:07
that builds in us, strength in each of us, and it builds a
37:12
good relationship. So as we kind of close out here, what's the best
37:17
way for people to learn more about your work? You can look at my
37:22
website, Dr su Johnson dot com. You can look at the IFT website,
37:27
which is I'm director of the International Center for Excellence and Emotionally Focused Therapy.
37:31
That's www dot ic ee FT dot com. You can find all our
37:40
research there. There's thirty years of research. We've researched everything you can imagine.
37:47
We can show you what needs to happen in therapy, how you can
37:52
do it as a therapist, and we can show you that these are the
37:55
results and this is what it looks like three years later. So it's all
37:59
this research and resources resources for therapists courses. We teach a lot with PESSI,
38:07
but we also have all kinds of courses on the ISF site. You
38:12
can look for my books. There's lots of little YouTube's out there. I'm
38:15
always shocked some of them look kind of weird. I look like the Queen,
38:20
which I don't like. I don't like that. But anyway, because
38:23
I'm anti monarchy, I don't want to look like the Queen. K So,
38:28
but you know, you can find a lot a lot of stuff on
38:31
the internet. Okay, we'll have that linked up here at the show notes
38:35
page. It's the Trauma Diapers podcast dot com. So still a thrilled to
38:39
have you here. You are inspiring, I mean, and obviously so passionate
38:46
about your work, and thank you so much for being here. We'll most
38:52
most welcome. It was really fun, all right, take care, Okay.
39:01
Pap in today acting to Roduilding