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Was America Founded as a Christian Nation? · Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews

0:02
Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hey, doctor Kidd, thanks for joining me.
0:06
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Doctor Thomas Kidd, Professor of Midwestern Seminary.
0:10
Speaker 2: Of course, you've written books on Thomas Jefferson, Visamin Franklin,
0:13
Speaker 2: George Whitfield, Patrick Henry. You've also written general history books
0:17
Speaker 2: as well, American.
0:18
Speaker 1: History Volume one and two.
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Speaker 2: I think volume two has an updated and revised edition
0:22
Speaker 2: coming out by BNH soon Post Reformation Christian History book
0:26
Speaker 2: as well. So you've written books that all of us
0:29
Speaker 2: have read before to learn more about American history. I
0:31
Speaker 2: wanted to ask you before we as we start here,
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Speaker 2: one of the most highly debated questions in America today
0:37
Speaker 2: is the founding of America and whether America was created
0:42
Speaker 2: as a Christian nation or as a strictly secular nation.
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Speaker 1: What do you say, how do you how do you
0:48
Speaker 1: view that debate?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, as usual, I think it depends on how
0:52
Speaker 3: you frame the question. I mean, if the idea is
0:56
Speaker 3: was Christianity influential on the American founder? And the answer
1:00
Speaker 3: is clearly yes. I mean a lot of ideas, most
1:04
Speaker 3: obviously equality by common creation by God. It's expressed. The
1:08
Speaker 3: Declaration of Independence doesn't make sense without a belief in
1:12
Speaker 3: a creator in a created order. But there are also
1:15
Speaker 3: important ways in which we are not founded as a
1:17
Speaker 3: Christian nation. Probably the most obvious one is that, unlike England,
1:23
Speaker 3: we decided not to have an official state church. And
1:26
Speaker 3: so in the First Amendment says Congress shall make no
1:29
Speaker 3: law respecting an establishment of religion. That's basically saying, Okay,
1:33
Speaker 3: England has the Church of England, which has tax support
1:37
Speaker 3: and official legal status, but we're not going to do that. Instead,
1:41
Speaker 3: we're going to emphasize freedom of religion for all religious groups.
1:46
Speaker 3: And so there's a legal sense in which we definitely
1:50
Speaker 3: were not founded as a Christian nation. But I think
1:54
Speaker 3: as it played out, that actually make Christianity stronger in
1:57
Speaker 3: America than it is today in England, which still has
2:01
Speaker 3: an official state church.
2:03
Speaker 2: Why is that? For those who don't call it your argument.
2:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think it's because state run religion
2:09
Speaker 3: is usually corrupt and ineffectual. I mean, and so for me,
2:14
Speaker 3: as an Evangelical and a Baptist, I don't want the
2:17
Speaker 3: government to run a denomination. I don't want official state
2:21
Speaker 3: religion because generally throughout history, state religion has meant corrupt religion,
2:30
Speaker 3: corrupt doctrine, corrupt church officials. They often persecute dissenters like
2:36
Speaker 3: the Baptists were at the time of the American Revolution.
2:39
Speaker 3: And so I would much rather put the emphasis on
2:43
Speaker 3: religious liberty. And if that, you know, if that means
2:46
Speaker 3: that we had a kind of a secular state at
2:48
Speaker 3: the time of the founding, so be it. If that
2:51
Speaker 3: means that we're really putting an emphasis on religious liberty.
2:57
Speaker 2: So when that issue comes up, then who is most
3:00
Speaker 2: right here or does each side have a colonel of
3:01
Speaker 2: truth in terms of whether American is a Christian nation
3:04
Speaker 2: or a secular nation?
3:06
Speaker 3: Oh? I think that, you know, the founding, the actual
3:09
Speaker 3: history of the founding kind of has enough to offend
3:11
Speaker 3: both sides. I mean, you know, even someone like Thomas Jefferson,
3:16
Speaker 3: who was the one who talked about Wallis separation at
3:18
Speaker 3: church and state, was very comfortable with public expressions of
3:22
Speaker 3: religion Christianity in you know, American governmental spheres, and you know,
3:28
Speaker 3: would regularly host basically church services and government buildings and
3:33
Speaker 3: things like that. But Jefferson also is the great architect,
3:38
Speaker 3: one of the great architects of American religious liberty. And
3:41
Speaker 3: believe that religious liberty was even for non Christians. And
3:45
Speaker 3: so I think that neither of side in today's debate
3:49
Speaker 3: really gets everything that they want from the founding.
3:53
Speaker 2: You mentioned separation of church and state. That's debated constantly.
3:57
Speaker 2: Is there such a thing as separation of church and
3:58
Speaker 2: state constitution?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is. I mean it's really obvious what it means,
4:06
Speaker 3: which is that the government chose not to run or
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Speaker 3: sponsor or an official denomination. This was not at all
4:13
Speaker 3: a theoretical question. I mean, it was are we going
4:16
Speaker 3: to keep doing what we've always been doing, which is
4:20
Speaker 3: the Church of England in England and almost all the
4:24
Speaker 3: colonies had an official denomination. It was either the Anglican Church,
4:29
Speaker 3: you know, the Church of England, or it was the
4:31
Speaker 3: Congregationalist Church in New England. And so we decided in
4:36
Speaker 3: the Constitution in particular, to stop doing that. And so
4:40
Speaker 3: that's the most obvious sort of black and white way
4:44
Speaker 3: in which you have separation of church and state is
4:48
Speaker 3: whether the government sponsor is an official denomination or not.
4:53
Speaker 3: And we decided in that case to have separation of
4:56
Speaker 3: church and state. That does not mean anti religion. It
5:00
Speaker 3: doesn't mean anti Christianity. It doesn't mean that Christianity has
5:04
Speaker 3: no public role in America, but in a really clear way,
5:08
Speaker 3: it did not have an official legal role in the
5:13
Speaker 3: national government.
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Speaker 2: So but it means something that is often not I
5:18
Speaker 2: guess addressed or are said in these debates, because that
5:23
Speaker 2: doctrine is often used to say, we shouldn't have God
5:26
Speaker 2: on the coins, we shouldn't have God, you know, in
5:29
Speaker 2: the halls of Congress, on walls as such.
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Speaker 3: Agree well, And those developments are very much a kind
5:35
Speaker 3: of nineteen fifties to the present kind of development. So
5:40
Speaker 3: what church state jurisprudence has become since the mid twentieth century,
5:44
Speaker 3: I think has really warped the way that we argue
5:48
Speaker 3: about church state separation. And so you know, when you
5:52
Speaker 3: look at the time of the founding, it's often the
5:54
Speaker 3: most committed evangelical Christians who are calling for church state separation.
6:00
Speaker 3: Why because Baptists in particular were often viciously persecuted by
6:05
Speaker 3: the state churches. So they had no interest in the
6:08
Speaker 3: government sponsoring a denomination. They wanted the government to leave
6:13
Speaker 3: them alone so that they could have full religious liberty
6:16
Speaker 3: and preach the gospel and freedom. And so I wouldn't
6:19
Speaker 3: want to forget about that kind of Founding tradition, even
6:24
Speaker 3: as we argue against the excesses of secularists jurisprudence since
6:29
Speaker 3: the mid nineteenth In the nineteen fifties, what did.
6:34
Speaker 2: The Founders believe though, about religion's role in culture and government?
6:38
Speaker 3: Well, as far as culture, I mean, there would have
6:40
Speaker 3: been widespread agreement among the Founders, especially among people like
6:45
Speaker 3: George Washington or John Adams, that Christianity was the great
6:49
Speaker 3: source of national virtue. And they assumed that if you're
6:55
Speaker 3: going to have a republic where the people quote unquote
6:58
Speaker 3: are sovereign, you have to have a virtuous people for
7:01
Speaker 3: the public to survive. So they certainly believed in a
7:05
Speaker 3: strong role for the churches, but in general they thought
7:09
Speaker 3: the churches will be stronger when they're free from state sponsorship.
7:14
Speaker 3: So that's again the genius of the Founders, I think
7:18
Speaker 3: on religion is that if we have religious liberty, the
7:22
Speaker 3: churches will be that much stronger and they will be
7:26
Speaker 3: more effective in doing what only churches can do, which
7:29
Speaker 3: is to preach the Gospel see Lives Transformed by God.
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Speaker 3: And then that leads to the inculcation of Christian virtue,
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Speaker 3: and that that undergirds a strong Republic, so that, like
7:42
Speaker 3: I said before, there's a very strong cultural role for
7:46
Speaker 3: Christianity at the time of the founding. It's just not
7:48
Speaker 3: an official legal role in terms of a connection between
7:52
Speaker 3: the government and churches.
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Speaker 2: Lots of Americans today are questioning what they read about history,
8:00
Speaker 2: and I'm curious for what you would tell those who
8:03
Speaker 2: are in that can't. They're wondering at the history that
8:06
Speaker 2: they hear and read is actually true history. What do
8:10
Speaker 2: you tell people who are concerned about that issue.
8:13
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think every person who writes on
8:17
Speaker 3: history is coming from a perspective. I mean, certainly as
8:21
Speaker 3: a Christian, I'm coming from a perspective when I write
8:23
Speaker 3: about history. More often than not, I tend to think
8:26
Speaker 3: Christianity and churches have a good effect in history in
8:30
Speaker 3: spite of all the mistakes that they've made, and secular
8:34
Speaker 3: liberals to not have that kind of view. So I
8:38
Speaker 3: think it's important to understand who you're reading, what your
8:43
Speaker 3: sources are. But I think even when you're coming from
8:47
Speaker 3: a perspective, when you have a worldview you're bringing to
8:50
Speaker 3: the table, but you can still be fair about about history.
8:55
Speaker 3: And so you know, for me, when I am talking
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Speaker 3: about the fount I think I'm disposed to see Christianities
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Speaker 3: at least cultural and intellectual influence everywhere. But that does
9:09
Speaker 3: not mean that all the Founders are Christians. I can't.
9:12
Speaker 1: Yeah.
9:12
Speaker 3: I mean I wish they all were. I wish they
9:15
Speaker 3: were all born again believers, and that would be awesome,
9:19
Speaker 3: But I just as a factual matter, I can't say
9:23
Speaker 3: that when you have people like Thomas Jefferson, who denies
9:26
Speaker 3: the authority of Scripture, denies the divinity of Christ, denies
9:29
Speaker 3: the Trinity, denies the Resurrection. As a Christian, I have
9:33
Speaker 3: to say, look, he's not a Christian. And I think
9:38
Speaker 3: you know, the trouble that Christians get into is when
9:40
Speaker 3: they start trying to say, well, America is Christian, therefore
9:45
Speaker 3: the Founders have to be Christians. And at that point,
9:49
Speaker 3: I think you're risking confusing things about what the nature
9:53
Speaker 3: of true Christianity is. And that's a price we should
9:56
Speaker 3: not be willing to pay.
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Speaker 2: A lot of times, though it is debated over percentages,
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Speaker 2: I mean, we're a majority of them believers.
10:15
Speaker 1: I mean, what do we know about that issue?
10:17
Speaker 3: Well, if we're talking about the major founders, the five
10:21
Speaker 3: or six founders that get the most attention, it's a
10:24
Speaker 3: pretty mixed bag. I mean it's easy to tell that
10:27
Speaker 3: Jefferson and Franklin were not Christians, you know, not they
10:32
Speaker 3: didn't believe in basic Christian doctrine. And then you got
10:35
Speaker 3: people like Washington, who you know, clearly is very respectful
10:39
Speaker 3: of Christianity, but says almost nothing about his own personal beliefs.
10:44
Speaker 3: I mean, we can hope that there was some substantial
10:47
Speaker 3: faith there, but he just never says much about his
10:50
Speaker 3: own beliefs and practice. But when you get out into
10:54
Speaker 3: the broader Patriot movement, I mean there's thousands and thousands
10:58
Speaker 3: of people involved with the Patriot movement, and I would
11:00
Speaker 3: say the center of gravity there is just kind of
11:04
Speaker 3: a basic traditional Christian belief. Now you know, whether a
11:09
Speaker 3: person is actually born again or not. I mean a
11:11
Speaker 3: lot of them were born again because they were influenced
11:13
Speaker 3: by the Great Awakening that happened in decades before the revolution.
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Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean that I think is clearly where
11:23
Speaker 3: you have a very broad based Christian theological cultural influence
11:28
Speaker 3: that is undergirding the revolution is in that broader Patriot movement.
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Speaker 2: I have a thousand questions for you, and you just
11:34
Speaker 2: mentioned the Great Awakening. What impact did the Great Awakening
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Speaker 2: have on the founding of America.
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Speaker 3: Well, the Great Awakening is really the seventeen forty, so
11:44
Speaker 3: we're talking about thirty years before the Revolution, and it's
11:48
Speaker 3: the most important certainly religious event before the Revolution. But
11:53
Speaker 3: it's also just a huge cultural and social upheaval. And
11:58
Speaker 3: there were a lot of Americans who got converted in
12:01
Speaker 3: the Great Awakening. And you can point to certain founders
12:05
Speaker 3: like Patrick Henry, for instance, who I wrote a biography of.
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Speaker 3: You know, he was a teenager during that time and
12:11
Speaker 3: his mother would take him to the revival meetings, and
12:14
Speaker 3: you know Henry's beliefs and his even his style of speaking.
12:19
Speaker 3: He's the greatest speechmaker of the Revolution, and he very
12:24
Speaker 3: clearly learned how to speak in part from the revivals
12:28
Speaker 3: of the Great Awakening. And even Henry's critics would say
12:32
Speaker 3: that Patrick Henry he thinks he's a preacher or something
12:35
Speaker 3: the way he talks, like in the Liberty or Death Speech.
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Speaker 3: So there's a deep, profound cultural influence knowledge of the Bible,
12:45
Speaker 3: which is, you know, just universal, even among the more
12:48
Speaker 3: skeptical founders. They know the Bible backwards and forwards. I
12:52
Speaker 3: mean a lot of that I think is energized by
12:55
Speaker 3: the Great Awakening. So whenever America is, say on the
12:59
Speaker 3: eve of the Revolution, I think is heavily colored by
13:02
Speaker 3: the Great Awakening.
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Speaker 2: But I've heard some historians say that it made the
13:07
Speaker 2: Patriots for the first time doubt they're Britishism. Is there
13:12
Speaker 2: any truth in that?
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Speaker 3: Well, I think it is something that helps to give
13:19
Speaker 3: the patriots a kind of sacred gloss on liberty. And
13:23
Speaker 3: I mean, I've read whole books about this, So to
13:26
Speaker 3: give the brief version, I mean, there are a lot
13:30
Speaker 3: of issues at stake there about liberty and the meaning
13:33
Speaker 3: of life and you know, the pursuit of happiness and
13:36
Speaker 3: all these kind of cherished values that are coming out
13:40
Speaker 3: of the Great Awakening. However, we also have to remember
13:43
Speaker 3: that the Great Awakening is as powerful in Britain as
13:46
Speaker 3: it is in America. The most important revivalist is George Woodfield,
13:50
Speaker 3: who's from England and spends most of his career in England,
13:54
Speaker 3: though he is fabulously popular in the colonies too. So
13:58
Speaker 3: it is an Anglo America can event. And so we
14:02
Speaker 3: don't want to go too far about saying it's only
14:05
Speaker 3: an American thing.
14:07
Speaker 1: Let me ask you.
14:07
Speaker 2: Circling back to people doubting American history. There was a
14:10
Speaker 2: controversy in the past month as we record this on
14:13
Speaker 2: social media about Rosa Parks, and I'm assuming you saw
14:17
Speaker 2: that he maybe even addressed it, and there was a
14:21
Speaker 2: prominent conservative he was saying, we've been lied to you
14:23
Speaker 2: about Rosa Parks. She was not who we said, who
14:25
Speaker 2: we were taught she was.
14:27
Speaker 1: What should we believe about her?
14:30
Speaker 2: And how would you recommend Americans when they hear something
14:33
Speaker 2: like that addressing them?
14:35
Speaker 1: I mean, where do we go?
14:37
Speaker 3: Yeah? Wow, I did not dig deeply into that social
14:41
Speaker 3: I try not to get to din down the rabbit
14:43
Speaker 3: hole with those kinds of things. But I mean, Rosa Parks,
14:48
Speaker 3: I think, by all accounts, is a committed Christian woman,
14:52
Speaker 3: and that is part of the real I mean that
14:55
Speaker 3: episode of her being made to move to the back
14:58
Speaker 3: of the bus, that was a planned event. I mean.
15:02
Speaker 3: And the reason that they chose Rosa Parks is because
15:06
Speaker 3: she was such a dignified Christian woman and so they
15:10
Speaker 3: didn't want to get some scoundrel, right, They wanted to
15:13
Speaker 3: get somebody who any reasonable person would be sympathetic towards.
15:19
Speaker 3: So she's church going and very dignified and is just
15:24
Speaker 3: the right person to represent the civil rights movement on
15:27
Speaker 3: that issue. And I think when you look at the
15:30
Speaker 3: rank and file of the civil rights movement in the
15:32
Speaker 3: nineteen fifties and sixties, your average person in the South
15:38
Speaker 3: who's engaged in the civil rights movement as a church going,
15:42
Speaker 3: you know, believing person, so that the civil rights movement
15:45
Speaker 3: very much comes out of, especially the black church in
15:48
Speaker 3: the South.
15:49
Speaker 2: But she's still an American hero in your mind, I
15:51
Speaker 2: mean she is in my mind. I mean, you know,
15:54
Speaker 2: trying to address what people were kind of getting at.
15:57
Speaker 2: There is so many of these cases, these major cases
16:00
Speaker 2: in American history, our test cases that are planned, but
16:02
Speaker 2: it still requires someone coming forward and having the courage
16:06
Speaker 2: to stand up and do what's right in order to
16:08
Speaker 2: get to court. So I never didn't I didn't understand
16:11
Speaker 2: the controversy when it was brewing on social media.
16:14
Speaker 3: It was a test case, but they chose the right person.
16:17
Speaker 1: Yeah.
16:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, she still was arrested, and she still could have lost.
16:21
Speaker 2: She still could have lost the case, and she still
16:23
Speaker 2: could have been in jail for whoever, who knows how long.
16:26
Speaker 2: Let me, as we kind of start landing a plane here,
16:29
Speaker 2: Doctor get, I want to ask you about America itself.
16:31
Speaker 2: Americans often think of themselves as unique, as different, as
16:35
Speaker 2: having launched an unprecedented movement of freedom, and your view
16:39
Speaker 2: is America unique?
16:40
Speaker 1: And if so, how well?
16:43
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm in American and mes you know, proud
16:47
Speaker 3: to be an American, as late Greenwood says. And I mean,
16:50
Speaker 3: so I like to think that there are very special things,
16:54
Speaker 3: particularly a boy the founding tradition. We were the first
17:00
Speaker 3: kind of great you know, democratic liberty based revolution in
17:04
Speaker 3: world history, and so that's really important. However, as a Christian,
17:10
Speaker 3: I also have to put some limits on that. I
17:13
Speaker 3: mean that in God's economy, that we are one nation
17:17
Speaker 3: among many nations, and that there have been a lot
17:19
Speaker 3: of Christians in American history, but that those Christians will
17:23
Speaker 3: just be part of the great throng of people from
17:27
Speaker 3: every tribe, tony nation when everything is.
17:31
Speaker 1: Said and done.
17:32
Speaker 3: And so, you know, my more profound allegiance is to
17:37
Speaker 3: God's Kingdom rather than America in particular. But if God
17:42
Speaker 3: let me choose, I would continue to live in America,
17:44
Speaker 3: and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. So I
17:46
Speaker 3: think it's perfectly natural to be proud of the good
17:50
Speaker 3: things about the American tradition, especially in a year like
17:53
Speaker 3: twenty twenty six, be sober about the bad things about
17:57
Speaker 3: the American tradition. But I think it's important for us
18:00
Speaker 3: to be able to be proud of the good things
18:04
Speaker 3: in our national tradition. And among those, I would certainly
18:07
Speaker 3: point to the ideal of equality by God's common creation
18:11
Speaker 3: of all people, and also the tradition of religious liberty.
18:15
Speaker 3: I think, just right there, those are wonderful things to
18:17
Speaker 3: celebrateon in twenty twenty six.
18:21
Speaker 1: Many people don't like history. I love history. You love history.
18:24
Speaker 2: I do, But I want you to explain to someone
18:27
Speaker 2: who thinks history is boring why it's not boring?
18:30
Speaker 1: Doctor kid? Why is history not boring?
18:33
Speaker 3: Well, I think that a lot of people their main
18:36
Speaker 3: exposure to history was in you know, their high school
18:40
Speaker 3: class when they had, you know, their football coach was
18:43
Speaker 3: teaching them.
18:44
Speaker 1: You know, it was just a.
18:45
Speaker 3: Bunch of lists and names and dates and all this,
18:48
Speaker 3: and that's boring. I mean, I wouldn't deny that that's boring,
18:53
Speaker 3: But it's it's the stories that make it so interesting.
18:56
Speaker 3: I mean, it's you know, the best kind of history
19:00
Speaker 3: are really compelling stories that also happen to be true.
19:06
Speaker 3: And so I mean, this is why I read a
19:10
Speaker 3: lot of out of the novels and everything too. But
19:12
Speaker 3: when push comes to shove, I'd rather read a really
19:16
Speaker 3: engaging story that's also about real people. And that's what
19:20
Speaker 3: you get in history. And so all the reasons that
19:25
Speaker 3: great stories trymph tragedy, you know, all that it all
19:30
Speaker 3: comes out in history, and so that that's why to
19:33
Speaker 3: me it's so engaging.
19:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in one hundred years people are going
19:37
Speaker 2: to be writing around writing about our current history and
19:39
Speaker 2: have some amazing stories as well. Tell me briefly about
19:43
Speaker 2: your own research. You have a new book, revised book
19:47
Speaker 2: coming out. I believe it's American History Part two.
19:50
Speaker 1: I think that's the name of it. Might be an agency.
19:52
Speaker 3: Volume American History, and we're doing a second edition, partly
19:57
Speaker 3: because a lot has happened since the first edition came out,
20:01
Speaker 3: but also there were just a lot of topics that
20:03
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, I didn't say you know
20:06
Speaker 3: anything or enough about this topic and that and that topic,
20:09
Speaker 3: and so that it's you know, I mean, some of
20:12
Speaker 3: the stories about the Declaration of Independence and I left
20:16
Speaker 3: that in there. But there's significant new content. And then
20:22
Speaker 3: this August and September, I have a book I'm coming
20:25
Speaker 3: out that I'm co authoring with Byron Johnson. This is
20:28
Speaker 3: a sociologist that Baylor and a good friend of mine,
20:32
Speaker 3: is called The Death of Religion, question Mark None's others
20:36
Speaker 3: in the Flourishing of Faith, And we're basically talking about
20:39
Speaker 3: what's actually going on and the religious landscape in America
20:43
Speaker 3: and around the world. And the basic answer is Christianity
20:46
Speaker 3: in particular is doing just fine.
20:50
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to have you on the podcast to
20:51
Speaker 2: talk about that because I write about that a lot.
20:53
Speaker 2: So that does that deal with the kind of the
20:55
Speaker 2: current movement of God around the world?
20:57
Speaker 1: Yeah?
20:57
Speaker 3: That, and what do we make about the the nuns
21:00
Speaker 3: phenomenon of people who say increasingly now that they have
21:05
Speaker 3: no religion. And we're basically arguing, I mean, it indicates
21:10
Speaker 3: something culturally is happening about that there's no stigma attached
21:15
Speaker 3: anymore to not having any religion, but that it often
21:20
Speaker 3: overlooks the fact that in these discussions about the nuns,
21:26
Speaker 3: there are tens of millions of regular church going people
21:32
Speaker 3: who never get counted in these discussions. And so it's
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Speaker 3: on one hand, it's like the nuns are taking over
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Speaker 3: American religion, but the group that we call the others
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Speaker 3: are completely unnoticed. So we would argue that American religion
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Speaker 3: is changing like it always does, but is this hardly
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Speaker 3: in decline.
21:53
Speaker 4: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to subscribe
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Speaker 4: and share the episode with a friend. A big thanks
21:59
Speaker 4: to the team that Life Audio for their partnership with
22:01
Speaker 4: us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
22:04
Speaker 4: you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in
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Speaker 4: their network.
22:09
Speaker 1: See you next time,