Latest / Spiral Tending / Human Design, Business, & a Live Case Study with Arianna Smith ✨

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Human Design, Business, & a Live Case Study with Arianna Smith ✨ · Spiral Tending

• andie: Hello and welcome to the Spiral Tending Podcast. This is Andy, and today we have a very special guest. Ariana is here, who is a psychotherapist and a copywriter for therapist. Today she kind of did a case study on me to which you all can listen to and learn from. She specifically went over parts of my work, my strengths, and How I can effectively communicate that to potential clients. I am so looking forward to you listening to this episode. let's get to it. draft3: Hi Ariana. So glad that you are here. Why don't you just start off by telling us who you are and what type of work you do? Andy, I'm so glad to be here. And I am a therapist like you. I also, well, I guess what I'll say is I am like every neurodivergent business owner and have a bunch of different things that I do. But but I work clinically as a therapist. I also work as a messaging strategist and copywriter for therapists and health professionals. And then I also read tarot as well. And that is yeah, and then I'm I there's a lot of other things I do, but they're gonna stay my hobbies and I'm not gonna monetize them like capitalism wants me to do. Very, very real. what kind of therapist are you? What kind of work do you do? So I am an LPC in Colorado and I'm ISS certified. So I love doing ISS. I also am EMDR trained. So sometimes I weave those together. And of course I'm neurodivergent affirming. So everything I do, I am looking through that lens of Okay, this this modality wasn't divine designed for neurodivergent people. So how do we need to adapt it? How do we need to approach that? I work with a lot of queer folks, trauma survivors, and yeah, I yeah, I really love what I get to do. How did you get into copywriting? Funny story. do you remember 2019 before everything was virtual? Do I ever? That was a while. Do we remember? Do we remember? Those were the good old days. So I started my private practice actually in 2016-17. went full time in 2017. And after a couple of years, I was like really I guess it's worth noting. I'm from Alaska, so I was born and raised there. And going back home and seeing my family is important. And when I was working a W two job, I was like, I can't like two weeks of PTO is not enough. And then my nieces were born and I'm like, fuck this. So really my whole intention of being self employed has been to have the freedom and flexibility to do what I want to do, do what's important to me. I joke a lot and maybe we can get into this later. Like, I am a great I'm a great entrepreneur, but not a great employee. A hundred percent. And so once my private practice was kind of at this full place and I was having to go in an office, I was like, what can I do that offers me a little bit more location freedom? And I was like, what about copywriting? So I started writing copy for other therapists. And over time, that just has grown and grown and grown to now it's actually about like sixty, seventy percent of my income. And then my private practice is, you know, I've just kind of been really, really intentional about like the clients that I bring in. So kind of slowly kind of condense that down. and yeah, so originally it was to like have that location freedom. And then I found that I really, really loved it. And it was a great way to be creative, to not have to be on, not have to do so much of emotional labor, but still get to be in the field and learn as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And tell me about like, have you ever experienced burnout or like, I don't know. Yeah. Stuff around money, I would love to know. Yeah. So I I mean you can probably guess what year it was. So 2022, you know, being a therapist in 2020 and 2021, and then also I was a copywriter. So both of my businesses exploded because everyone that had ever emailed ever in my life wanted to come to therapy. And so I was so maxed out there. And then all the therapists were like, my gosh, I can't reply, rely on like word of mouth. I can't reply on like brick and mortar means my website needs to be better. So I really had this perfect storm of a lot of of work. and I started to develop chronic pain. And eventually I, through the support of my mentor at the time, Megan Meginson, I took a two-month sabbatical the summer of twenty twenty two. And it was you know, I say it was a sabbatical looking back, I would say it probably qualified as medical leave because I was I was not having a great time. But I knew there was no way I was gonna be able to get ahead of the burnout and help my body if I didn't take like this really long sustained break. And so that really shifted things in my business, in what my income goals even looked like. what my hours looked like, what I was able to do because of course I wasn't magically healed after two months. Like it's chronic pain. It's chronic for a reason. but also around that time, I didn't mention this, I got a human design reading. Wow, tell me what. And I realized what I love about human design is it is basically the best way to the theory behind it, it's the best way to use your energy. It's the best way to make decisions. And it's also a really good way to know what is natural for you and how you can be, how that can be expressed and how that can be helping other people. And so that's why I use human designs when I do tarot readings or even actually with my copywriting messaging clients. I'm like, we're l like, let's look at your chart. Let's see this. So yeah, it highlighted the way that I needed to be using my energy differently in my business and how I needed to be responding differently to my business. Like because I, you know, I want to solve problems for people. I'm pretty strategic. And so that's something else when we think of this as, you know, as a as a generator, we have this self and not self theme. And the self theme is shows that we're like in alignment and not self not and for generators it's satisfaction. You know? And and then they say not self is frustration, but I think boredom is honestly like. Yes. Yeah. Sometimes I'm very bored as a therapist. Not because what we're doing is boring, but just the monotony of it sometimes can feel that's when I start to get weird in session. And I'm like I'm This is it's too much. I don't believe that necessarily our private practice has to meet all our needs either. A hundred percent. So, you know, you can be polyamorous with your businesses and I think it's important to be actually Yeah. So like if you're I mean, yes, if folks are bored and they're a private practice that's telling us something, but that doesn't mean we have to actually fix that thing per se. And it's kind of like when people are like Bored in their relationship, and it's like really because this other thing is happening. so that and I think that was part of like that's also been something I've been dancing with, just being a copywriter and being a therapist is because I have felt this pressure to just like choose one. And the two complement each other so well that. And I actually like it just I can't, you know, I'm like they they compliment each other so well. Like if I just did therapy or I just did copywriting, like it wouldn't work for me. Yes? Variety. And I also like I think about this a lot, like the white men therapists that were doing therapy probably were not seeing full time clients. Like like I am so curious how caseload has evolved, what that has transpired to and if Yeah. And all for me, I would be very pleased with four clients a week that I sit with for an hour and a half and I'm deeply present and that is it. Like because I I'm I'm thinking about them all week or And I'm thinking about what I did and my stupid ass shit I said or whatever, you know, like my stuff that comes up and yeah, I'm very curious about the idea of a caseload and how it's evolved and the pressure it puts on therapists to live off of relationships, which is super complicated. But yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and also the the cost to the rest of your life. Yes. This highlights actually. So I've been playing with this idea of life currency and like what currency is most important to me. And I think that sometimes the currency we need is like something that's interesting and novel and like we can learn. Sometimes we need material currency. I mean, we all do because of the society we live in. Sometimes the currency we need is like our life force. And that was what I was really affronted with, with you know, my burnout is I had to choose which type of currency I really needed and how to balance that. And so when I look at what I was making, I'm she I'm sure this is the case for many therapists, but when I would look at what I was making, you know, 2020 to 22 and even 23, like now it's it's lower. But I don't see that as failure. I see that as like what's the currency that I've chosen, which I still do need material currency, I still need that. But also I need life currency. I need to There's no point in making this money if I'm gonna be in pain all weekend in a pain flare. And that takes some like hard choices too. Around like, okay, well, what are my expenses gonna be? What am I gonna have to cut? Like, what does my spending look like? You know? But that's kind of what we all have to do. And so it's like if you wanna cut your caseload, like and have more life currency or novelty currency, like. See how that could see how that could work. So I think there's there's energetic currency. Like who gets to be in our space? Who gets to be in our mind? Relationship currency, like who gets to ha have our love and attention. Just like I think for me, what has always been important, I guess, is maybe I don't necessarily if I want to call it intellectual currency, but The other day I was on a call with a a big group of therapists doing messaging strategy. And they and this is like the S S the I was gonna say essential existential question, like what should my niche be? And I said just whatever like for me it was whatever I'd never be tired of learning about. Yeah. And for this person, they said what what they'd never for them it was something they'd never be tired of doing. That they'd never get bored of, you know. So kind of similar but the same. So for me, I have to have like I things have to be interesting for me. What about you? I'm so curious of your experience. Well, when you're talking, I was like, I definitely feel trapped being a therapist right now to some degree because I'm like, it is the thing that brings me money consistently. Poo-poo, knock, knock. I do not struggle in the ways that my peers do. and I think some of that is messaging as you're talking about. And I have never, we were talking about this before. I'm like, I'm not a perfectionist, like, and that has actually won me the clients every single time because they're like, I read your profile, but you didn't sound like a robot. Or you, your picture looked like you just took it. Like And I yeah, it has been like very funny and I I actually get this is like kind of a side tangent, but therapists infantilize me a lot. And it has been very fascinating. So I'm like, it's working well for me, you guys. Like the whole just showing up is doing great. and within that, I have felt very at times being like, Can I pay off some debt so I can have more choice? So I can do something else. And What I'm finding is it doesn't really matter which way I do it because I'm gonna be in debt. So I should just do the thing that makes me happy and trust that the debt will be paid off regardless. because it's too high. If I'm if I decide to just be a therapist only right now to pay off my student loans, I will be like eighty by the time they go away. I think when we're talking about currency, I'm like, what is lost when I hold so tightly? And I think that is the theme. What it makes me think of is the stories that hold us back from what we can do and what's possible. And some of those stories are very real based on systemic factors. But I think there is if you were to allow yourself that freedom, if you would Allow yourself that momentum, like what would change? Actually, I'm like, can we use you as a messaging case study? please. Because you kind of said you're like, you know, I put up this photo and like I just washed my face with an apricot scrub. And like, or you know, I'm teasing you, but like, you know, you're just like so you. But I I get really curious about Like what is your approach to how you present yourself to your therapy clients or even to your other business? Like I mean, I was thinking about this the other day because I like had a shirt on where I was like, you could see my brows, like, is that unprofessional? And I was like, I don't have my brother and I do this a lot. He wears shorts with Uggs and I'm like, You can't do that. Like you just you can't. do that. He is. And he is. And I wear socks with sandals. And I think what it is is I don't think about it until someone points it out. And I'm like, I didn't even like notice. Is that so I I have a different issue than most people. I'm living in a different reality. And the reality is I don't notice. So take that as a case study. You're in the Andiverse. Well, what would that be like if we just let ourselves be in our universe and be like, step into the portal or not? Yeah, because the people that don't want to work with me don't reach out to me because they're like, This fool is wearing a hat in the professional photo. Is that even allowed? Like, those people were not meant to work with me. But the people who are arrive and they stay. Unless we don't drive and then they don't. And that's fine. They will find someone else. But I think that there's something very powerful and grad school teaches you not to be yourself. But I think it's one of the biggest things in business of being a therapist because you are selling yourself. Like you are the instrument. That doesn't mean you have all the answers and that you can fix, but like You gotta trust someone and how are you gonna trust someone if you don't know who they are just like a fraction? The whole self disclosure blank slate is just so stifling and I've been a therapist for a long time and I can't every time I wear flip flops to session, I'm like, they're gonna report me to Dora. You know? They're gonna they're gonna report over the door. Although if you wanna go down a fun rabbit hole because I actually actually I looked into this 'cause I like wearing flip flops in session and I went down like the therapist Reddit thread around like be having bare feet. And I was like, Okay, clearly none of these people are neurodivergent because they were talking about how unprofessional it was to like pull your feet up underneath you and the chair. What? And I know. I just like who And this is this is the thing. So I host I host like low key networking gatherings for other therapists. And they're very casual and they're very low key because we need that. And so I'm surrounded by people and you probably are as well, they're like casual. And then I read this thread and I'm just like, my gosh, okay. Like it does make a difference to have this more casual presence and it does. Like just letting Letting that down. Okay. So from a messaging perspective, you are you've kind of identified a differentiator, which is how people we're gonna do a little messaging one on one. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which you are you familiar with messaging at all? No idea what you're talking about, but keep going. Okay, so this is what I've been nerding out lately is positioning, which is Basically, how do people place you in the market? Like in the sea of what's your niche? it's changing, but definitely weirdos, neurodivergent, queer people, business owners, grief. Okay. Complex trauma. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So in the sea of like neurodivergent therapists, how are you position how are you placed within that? And this is one thing that I think therapists don't think about a lot because we're not taught to and we're supposed to be generalists and we're supposed to help everyone. But if you don't think about how you are placed within the market of other people serving you, like you serve, then you're gonna make it harder for people to choose you. Yeah. And so what I think you're describing is you make it Very easy for people to choose you or not choose you. Yes. And it's intentional. I don't want to work with people who show up in suits. It I we're some Unless it's ironic. Yeah. Sometimes they do find me and they have like a whole like, you know, fun kink life outside of the workforce and I'm like, Yeah, you found the right person. But like I don't work well with normies. Well, yeah, so it's like if You are a private pay therapist, you have to think about positioning. You have to think about how people are choosing you. And you have to help people make that choice. But you also, this is the other hard thing, is you also have to listen to what folks are saying about you as well. Because often have you ever had that actually my gosh, I just had a session the other day. You've had those sessions where a client's like what you said was so helpful, blah, blah, blah. And of course you're like, I great. What what stood out to you about it? 'Cause I don't remember. Did I? And or I do, but I want to like not make an assumption and be awkward. And it's something completely different than what you thought. A hundred percent. And it's not because you were warm, caring, and non-judgmental. You know, like it was usually because, you know, I'm not I don't like it was usually because you were being you. Like really, like really authentically you in whatever way. So when we think about positioning, we have to think about our differentiators. And so one that you described is you're just like, I'm the person that Like is I don't even know if casual is even the right word, but like you really unhinged. Unhinged. I would say that. But you know what actually I would say is your differentiator is there is a there is a a a a walk to the talk. Because it's one thing when they're like, I want you to be authentic And then in my case, you know, my head shop, I have makeup on. I don't wear right. So I think there's like and you work with neurodivergent folks that are so attuned to discrepancy. Totally. And so when I think of maybe if you have folks that are Audi H D or Autistic, there's such congruency. They don't have to read between the lines. They don't have to know what to expect. They don't have to be like, Am I gonna have to think about what to wear in session? Am I gonna have to figure out how to mask this, right? Totally. Are you s does this stand out to you? I mean And when people come, they take off their shoes. I always take off my shoes. We're talking about this. I'm like, I don't want I don't even care if my feet smell. I don't want to wear shoes. They're gross. And my clients always take off their shoes because they're like, we can just like vibe. They sit on the floor. You know, like it's not uncommon to just feel comfortable. And I think that you're saying something really true is like, especially for neurodivergent people, they're like, You're a liar. Or not. So tell me what it is. So I know. You either you're lying or you know you're lying. Yeah. Right. And it I think it I for the right people it's very wonderful. For the wrong people, it's not. And that's okay. Yeah. What I also want to name, because my brain can't help but see this, there is an element of being comfortable as an act of rebellion in Your practice as well. Yeah. Like what is that like to be physically comfortable? And yeah. It's important. I don't want to sit with someone's trauma when I'm in pain. I'm actually really bad at it. When you were talking about chronic pain, I was like had a very bad flare, a year and a half. And ever since then I'm like, I just do what I want. Like you're gonna like me better if I stretch. You're gonna like me better if I'm just lounging, like Mm-hmm. And then they do the same. And it's honestly endearing to witness clients like I always have food and people come in and eat and just like it just feels wholesome and way and nourishing versus like we sit here, you leave, you go, blah you know, it's like you just come. Yeah. Yeah. What what is your messaging? How have you found it? So curious. Mm. Okay. So before we dive into that, I realized I made the mistake of talking about something that in business is often used a lot in a really abstract way. and so and that you know, and yeah, it bothers me. And I and because then it's like as long as you're not being clear about what it is, you can kind of be exploited and manipulated. If you don't actually know what something is, right? So I just want to operationalize what messaging is from my perspective. This is my five one coming out, which is like, let's make this fucking practical as possible. So your messaging is both a bridge and a framework. So it is a bridge between you and your ideal client and How to find the shared meaning between you two that is going to motivate them to choose you and work with you. And it's also going to motivate you to work with them. So shared meaning, it is also a framework. So it is also a way to think about how we build our copy, build our marketing, build our sales ecosystem. And so the analogy I like to use is you are let's see here. Which one do I want to use? Okay, I'll have you pick, Andy. party, cabin, or road trip? Party. Okay, party. Okay. Tell me what kind of party you're planning, Andy. A super chill, lots of really good food. We're just vibing and singing, you know. We're just yeah. Coexisting, talking, yeah. Okay, so you're the host, right? And you want people to come. And so your message is the bridge between those two, which is what is happening and who should come. So that's the message. Okay. And then the framework is your event plan and your guest list. The copy is the invitation and the marketing is how those invitations are delivered. This is beautiful. So that's why it's like a bridge and a framework because it's bridging you, your ideas between how they're being expressed, is between I want to host this thing and I want it to actually fucking happen. And then it's like and then it's like, how how do we make that happen? Okay, well. Before I can decide how to send the invitations, I have to know what I'm gonna write on them. And before I write the invitations, how do I know like who I wanna come? Like and based on who I wanna come is like what's gonna be the vibe of the party? And also what's gonna be the value to them too? Like, so why should they come to your party, Andy? for reels? Yeah. Yeah. Because it's just gonna feel easeful. Yeah. Like Yeah. when I go to a a party, I'm like, do I feel like I can take off my shoes and open the fridge? And if not, I'm not coming. Because I don't have time to feel anxiety like that in my life anymore. But if but if we can you walk into my home, you take off, you open, and we co collaborate, that's it. Did I answer that question? Yeah. Yeah. my gosh. I mean you also just kind of wrote your copy for your party right there, right? But it's not entirely the like the tape like so why would what are people gonna get out of it? So they come in, they take their shoes off, they get some good food. Like what are they gonna experience? What a you know oxytocin. like a science level. Yeah. Connection. Well, this goes back to the currency. Yeah. Because our message has to connect to the currency that matters the most to our ideal client. And so, yes, your party is gonna offer connection through like this relaxed and casual atmosphere. And you said it so well, you said, I don't have time to be anxious anywhere else. So you're also thinking about the currency of time. Like there's all these opportunities that people could do before going to your party. And you're like, this is a good use of your time. This is a good use of your time because you don't have to feel this. You're gonna be, you know, it's efficient. Like there's an efficiency aspect of like, I'm gonna meet the people that Andy has met, which as a four-six, you need to be doing that, right? Like this is an unseen value, is like You are gonna be this little magnet for people and they're gonna be like, Well, I wanna meet someone and he's gonna know them. I'm just thinking, and this is why you are so good at copy. Like you just showed us exactly what it's like to work with you. I'm like over here taking notes, like, yeah, yeah, that is right. Well, I was gonna say, I'm like, did you know you were gonna be the case study? But it's the bet, but this is how this is how I work. Like if you were to ask me to explain something abstractly, I'd be like, I don't know. But if but if it's like you put something in front of me and say Do something with it, I'm like, okay, yeah. Like, give me some things to notice. And this is like the pattern recognition piece, which I think all of us neurodivergent folks need to use in some way. So yeah. Yeah. And this also connects to your human design because you will want to leverage that strain. Like in my case, five one, I need to have my hands on clay doing something with it. Like I need to have people in front of me doing it. For you, it's gonna be like who do you know? Mm-hmm. This is so I love human design. Yeah. And thanks for letting me nerd out about this. No today. Yes. And I feel like for the therapists who have no idea about marketing, they're gonna be like, Yeah, I get it now. Like this makes sense. Good. Yeah. I feel like there is something I mean, you probably see this too, is like people like in the online business world, they kinda use all these terms and phrases. And it's like, what does it actually mean? Yeah. Like what does it actually mean? And w like what is the actual breakdown of this process? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which also that's hard with therapy too, because there's no way I could ever be like, I mean, I did this, this, and this. You know, you're like, I did what was right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Totally. It's it's hard to quantify something that is so present, I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wow. Thank you so much. Anything else for the people to know about what it's like to work with you in the case study? Well, how is it for you to have these things reflected back at you? We are just talking about we are talking about perfectionism a little day. Yeah. And I feel like you can take this in. And I wonder if maybe some other people will be like, no, that's not true. Or no, other people do it that way. Or no, like everyone does that, you know? So I'm curious for the listeners if they can like hear what it's like to receive this because it's vulnerable. It's d it's yeah, it is. Yeah. But it's also important and I think for talking about neurodiverg like neurodivergence, like I am not the type that no I I never understood masking. It is a foreign concept. I d that's why I don't work at a real job. I'm like, what do you ask? This is crazy what you're asking me to do, by the way. but I think because I have never had the skill that I see so many people struggle with actually. When you're reflecting that, I'm like, yeah, I mean, I have to sit in my awkwardness all the time because it's so verbally there, like there's not a filter. I feel you know, and And so it's actually quite cathartic to be like, Yeah, that's it. Thanks. I'm gonna fucking write that shit actually. I'm gonna go edit my shit, you know, like it feels I think riveting actually, but vulnerable to be witnessed in that way. So I think it's it's both. Yeah. because some of the things are related to what you haven't really been allowed to own. Yeah, maybe just yeah, I guess so. Like maybe not so boldly. Like I think it's an unspoken thing, but maybe, maybe there's something important about bolding it a little bit more, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Remember we were looking at our charts and I was like looking at like some of the combinations between the two of us. And I have a gate eleven, which is the gate of ideas, and you have the the combo gate, which I think is the wandering storyteller. And so I'm of course thinking like my ideas gate is so activated. And I'm already thinking about and this is why I like had to go into messaging work because I can already think of like side podcast pitches for you. Which is like when awkwardness is your brand. Yeah. Right? Like literally. Yeah. Like I think there's something here. Like you named so many, but then and what's I need to like what's funny is I would not have seen this as vulnerable for you because I'm just like there's a part of me who's envious in a way too. And the way that you can like own this and you like don't have this ability like you don't have to mask and like you can just be like, Yep, let's do that. But I think it also highlight it comes with a lot of struggle too as well. It does. Cause then, you know, I also have my own meltdowns because what I'm forgetting is different than what people forg you know, I forget very important things. Like sometimes people's sessions cause I input it, you know, it's like There's things that come at a cost. but I think that's true for any human. I just think some people have better not better minds, but minds that can take in information and hold it longer. But it is interesting because when you were saying MVS, I was like sitting here being like, my god, the fact that you can synthesize writing like this, like genius. And I was like, I'm gonna hire you. Like, what have I been doing? Like That's funny story. Well, funny story. I have in my human design, I have a gate that's called the Genius to Freak channel. And I kid you not. And it was like, so when we talk about human design being like because and this is what I've had to learn, is I Like some people are gonna be like, What the fuck? Mm-hmm. Right. And other gonna be like, my gosh. And I've had to sit with like, okay, like is this gonna land or not? You know? Totally. But I do think there is th this that I heard this phrase the other day, is we can't see the label from inside the bottle. And even I had to hire someone for my own messaging. Cause I'm just like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Yep. because I don't know what that is, 'cause they just see things that other people don't. And it's why we have to we need our own therapist, you know? And it's also why we haven't talked about AI yet, but it's also why I think Yeah, please. It's my fucking nemis and I use it, but go on. Yeah, right. Like AI, that is a complicated topic, for sure. For sure. And I think that it's even a conflict we are feeling is not an individual issue, it's a st systemic issue. Totally. Cause ever since 'cause I guarantee you you use AI for things that help with executive functioning. And I well, actually I don't guarantee, but I'm guessing. Like, yeah, like I will use AI to be like, I'm doing this workshop. Here's the outline. Is this gonna be 90 minutes? Because I I like made this outline the other day and I was like, this will take 15 minutes. And then I asked AI and it's like, this is it 90 minute to two hour workshop. Like, great, I've completed it. Yeah. I was like, okay. And so it's like I think that's the way I'm sitting with AI is there's like it's so easy to moralize it and I will. Yeah. And like the reason we're having to sit with this quandary is because if there were just accommodation for neurodivergent people, if there is just better access to mental health care. If there was just XYZ, XYZ, right? But in this idea of our businesses and AI, it's like what we said. So let's say you went to AI and were like, help me write my website. It's only gonna work with what you put into it. And that's why I think AI is not great at messaging because it can only work with the prompts that you give it and so much of messaging is what you can't see about yourself. A hundred and ten percent agreed. And yeah, yeah. No, you go, go ahead. Well and also my second career was gonna be a linguist because I think It's there for you. I know. I just love the study. Well, yeah, I was like, I love linguistics. I want to be able to pay off my loan. Copywriting. I love psychology. So also AI homogenizes language. And so for you, AI would be the worst thing you could do for your business because it's going to make your voice a conglomerate of all the other voices out of there, right? Yep. And I think I think people are starting to screen f for if someone is using AI to write their copy. Like really? Like yeah, like when I'm looking clients. Yeah. Yeah. And myself too. Like when I'm looking for support, I'm like, did a robot write this? 'Cause I don't want to work with you if that's the case. You know what I mean? Like I wanna or even people's Instagram posts. there's just been a lot of things that I I've been getting mess like all post something not knowing it was AI and someone's like AI made that and I'm like, how do you know? Like, but I think people are really starting to Yeah. Mm-hmm. Which makes sense. It's weird. It's a weird thing. Yeah. So you're saying you can't recognize the pattern when it's AI? no. Like I can tell because it's like bullet points with like little fingers that point that way or like little green check boxes, you know? Yeah. But like and it sounds like pretty generic and salesy, like a car salesperson wrote it. Yeah. But if I'm scrolling, I'm not gonna catch it unless I'm really sitting with it. Which is well disgusting if I really sit back and think about that. But No, I don't think it is. Why would it be? Just like that it's so normalized that my brain already is like, did a robot I don't know. Like Okay. So if you haven't guessed my pattern recogni recognition around language. Is annoying. It's so annoying. Like I can I can tell so quick. Like I'm the person that could be like that I like could tell right away. And I read some things and I'm like, did A AI write that? So if my brain, just like to normalize, like if my brain is kind of like that way, and I have to kind of read through it a little bit. So I mean, I think AI is gonna get better. It it will get better, but it ultimately is something that assembles patterns together. And that is just not going back to this theme of novelty. Yeah, like if we hear the same chord in a song over and over and over and over, we are gonna get bored. We're gonna lose interest. I actually have a colleague that she's a poet, and I'm like, that is Perfect for copywriting. She does like you know, she does c poetry and she's like applying that to copywriting. I'm like, that's beautiful because there's so much rhythm in writing that we pick up on and that's important. Yeah, and you know, as you're saying this, I've actually had some friends tell me when they're looking for therapists, they're like, if one other person says they use cognitive behavioral therapy, I'm gonna smack the fucking thing. Like because I think if we're talking about messaging. From what I hear when people are looking for a therapist, they don't fucking care about the modality as much as the therapist does. And I think a lot of the modality is actually for the therapist to feel confident, to go deeper, but that's a whole different thing. And people get really stuck and being like, look at my expertise in this, but within that they're also missing the messaging of how that really plays out. It's like they don't care what C B T means. They want to know what it's like to be in a room with you. And those are two very different things. Yeah. Yes. The equivalent I would say with this party is they don't want to know what's in the fridge unless it's like unless they're gonna wanna come into the house. It's all you know. And honestly, I'm like, wow, I just came up with that. And that actually I think with my range. Sometimes I say things and I'm like, well, shouldn't have said that. But I was like, wait, that actually makes sense. Yeah, it's like, I don't care what you have in the fridge if like I'm not gonna feel comfortable in the house. And so if you lead this party invite with like whatever is in the fridge, people are gonna be like, Great, but what? Like obviously and I think actually a way to kind of parallel this is well, I'm gonna I'm gonna explain this in one way that like gives therapists a break. Because We need a break. But also, clients assume that you're qualified. Yeah. If you're going to a party, you're gonna assume there's food there, right? You're gonna assume there's something to eat there. So when people lead with their modalities, they're leading with just the basic expectation of going to therapy. They're assuming you have a modality. Yes. And that you're just not like playing a harp. You know, and like having them like chap on themselves or something, right? They're gonna assume this. But also because we have credentials and the way our culture works, they probably be like, Okay, I guess I'll try this harp therapy. I was like sitting there being like, it should be right there, right now. Yeah. I'm like, wait, did I just become a new like modality person? Anyway, so so I wanna just name that. But when I go back to messaging being a bridge around shared meaning, therapists we often lead with our modalities because it is the easiest way to bridge connection with our peers. Right. So everyone's like, hey, what are you trained in? What do you do? Right. And so I if I know someone else is trained, and that also signals what they might value. Right. And so if I meet someone else that's trained in IFS, then I'm like, Okay, that gives me a little gap, right? We're trying to close this gap. That's all I want to do around what that might mean around them. And so then I feel safer. So therapists are used to writing copy to other therapists and they're gonna use it to bridge the gap the best way they know how, which is the modalities. Because when I say what my modality is, there's so much that fires in your brain around that, if it tra if it's the same as you. Yep. And nothing if it doesn't. Yep. Yeah. It really I really like what you said. Therapists can really market to other therapists, which is very true. Cause we live in kind of like a bubble. Our it's yeah. You know, it's what we breathe and a cli like when I tell people I do AED P they're like, What the fuck is that? And I'm like, But I don't even know. I say the acronym and like, I can tell you what it's like, you know, but I don't know how to describe this to you. Yeah. Well, what's so funny is like you saying that, I just already thought Yes, you have to I know I was like, cool, you do? Like I just my little brain like was like, okay, right? Yes. So I'm gonna know who to refer to you, although we're in different states, which you know, but like I would probably send you someone with attachment trauma, right? That's what the modality is good for. Right. But you've do you have attachment trauma wording on your website? No. Because I'm moving from Okay. yeah. Working specifically with developmental trauma. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But I used to all I used to be like, if you feel, you know, all these feelings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. When you said IFS, I was like, wow, you're probably nonjudgmental. Of people having various parts. That's so awesome. I feel like I of us, my gosh, have you seen the video Ten Therapies Done Terribly? No. We should have led with that. We should include it in the show notes. It's by this comedian who enacts ten different therapies done terribly. my god, that is perfect. It's probably like ten years old or five years old at this point. I watch it at least once a year. Like I really I'm like, I should have a watch party of this two minute skit. So I love it. We'll just leave we'll just leave that little Easter egg in the in the in the show notes for folks. do you wanna tell anyone who's listening to this just like a little piece of advice or something around copy? especially right now, because it's a hard time to be a human. We're Everything is dehumanized. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Like, what couldn't I say around it? What comes to mind, and this is a little bit more expansive, and this newsletter might come out by the time that you release this. I'm sitting with this idea around how business is moralized and how if you are not bringing in the clients that you want and you aren't doing all of this, then you are a moral failure. You are doing something wrong. And so I think it's very easy, and I'm trying to be more mindful about this because this is, you know, just anyone that's learned business is gonna kind of inherit this, like you could have great copy and not be getting clients, and that's not because you suck. Yep. Right. Or you could have shitty copy and be getting clients. And that like, so I think it's like removing the moralization from what you're doing in your business. And from there, you can actually be strategic around what your business needs. And Hiring providers that are comfortable enough saying you don't need this. Yes. Which I just did to someone this week. I mean, like I was just like, no, you don't need this. because I think that's what's a little dangerous in the business world is everyone saying their solution is the problem, you know? And what I like about The framework I shared, which is not mine, it's just kind of this conceptualization around messaging, copy, marketing, and you, it provides a way to diagnose what is happening in your business. And so I could go into that right now, but I won't because I've talked a lot already. But if folks are kind of sitting with like, is it a copy? Is it a marking? Is it a messaging? If they are getting traffic, if they're getting people discovering them and finding them and not getting the conversions, that might be a copy issue, which could be a messaging issue as well. so that would be the thing that I would offer is like, are people discovering you? Is not, that's a marketing issue. Are people inquiring and reaching out to you? That's a copy issue. Are they converting once they reach out? If they aren't, that's a messaging issue. And possibly a sales issue too. Love that breakdown. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. This is so fun to talk about. It was. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. can you tell the people how they can find you? especially 'cause you have a great copy gift. Do I? Yeah, yeah. Did I share? I'm like, what did I share? let's see, where can they sign me? so my website is arianasmith.com. And you can find everything about me there around copy. if you're in the Denver area, I host low-key gatherings. I want to see you if you're listening and you like this podcast and you're not a therapist and you want to come, like come. I don't, you know. And then I also offered tarot reading, which is another way to see what you're not seeing, notice what you're not noticing. and yeah, you can find that all on my website. And my newsletter is called Method and Meaning, and it's basically a weekly exploration of messaging, marketing, and What makes people buy? Like what is motivating people? Like kind of this conversation around life currency. And a dash of woo, of course. Great. Thank you so much. andie: Thank you all for joining Ariana and I on this podcast today. If you are enjoying these episodes, please share with a friend, like, comment, you know the drill. I also just wanted to take a moment and share with you about the ways that we can work together during this hellscape fire of a time. I am doing small business coaching for healers and therapists. I also run the Spiral Collective, which is a place of so many different things: monthly business meetings, co-working, self-promotion, options for cross-promotion. You can do a presentation, share your work, you can network. and outside of that, I also am beginning to do more workshops monthly. This month we are doing one on selling and your relationship to selling. Next month we are doing an investing workshop with Jackie Curry. Her and I will be collaborating and showing you what a coaching session around money is like with me and what a coaching session. around investing is like with Jackie. It'll be interactive, it'll be fun, it'll be silly, it'll be great. Highly, highly recommend that you sign up if money is something that makes you want to cringe and hide away. Or if it's something that you're like, I am ready to continue deepening my relationship to this thing that unfortunately right now runs the world. With that said, I just want to say thank you again for being part of this community and talk soon. Bye for now.