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Dalia Feldheim: Embracing Opportunity to Claim Your Bold Path · The Bold Lounge

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Every week we'll hear from someone who has taken the lead or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be free.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'd like to welcome everybody to today's podcast, which is actually a mobile version of the Bold Lounge.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: As I am traveling, but didn't want to miss the opportunity and the honor of talking with Dahlia Feldheim, who is the author of Dare to Lead Like a Girl.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think we'll start by just thanking Dahlia for being here today.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being part of the Bold Lounge.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a real pleasure to be here.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And crazy mobile world.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone's listening to you probably while they're driving in as well.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we're all in the same mood.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and where are you today?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm in Israel and I'm actually walking here outside on the beach seeing the sunset.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we're good.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you have some great scenery.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Excellent.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm on I-95, not as good scenery as you for sure.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I what I do when I start off the podcast is I really ask everyone what their definition of bold is.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: And my folks have heard me talk about the continuum of bold, but I'd love to hear what you would define bold as, Dahlia.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think it's first of all, courage.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I called the book Dare to Lead Like a Girl because I think that's a key element in my life in general.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'll actually use something that one of my mentors also recommended the book, uh, Paul Pollman, he's a ex-CEO of Unilever.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I heard him say, and I'm like, whoa, this is bang on.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So he talks about courage being the most misunderstood word.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: People think it believes, you know, making decisions that others don't make or you know, stepping ahead of the danger, etc.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: But he says, you know, courage comes from the French word cœur, which means heart, because really courageous leaders lead from the heart.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, boldness is really, you know, it's not the absence of fear, because we all have fear, it's listening to your heart and moving ahead in alignment with your heart.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that's for me the definition of boldness.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's an excellent definition.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: We talked briefly and I I shared a little bit about my journey, and I think there's some similarities, but would love to hear some of your specifics around your bold journey that you've had uh professionally and personally.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you you certainly have a professional bold story to share.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny to think about it that yes, boldness, I guess, is part of my equity.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's you know, I was a platoon commander, you know, in the IDF.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that was a crash course in in boldness in the sense of we have.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would say so.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I see it as a crash course in leadership, a crash, you know, we have this phrase, follow me.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where probably I learned two things.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: I learned, you know, if you want uh, you know, a leader is not a leader unless he has followers, so you need to give your personal example if you want people to follow you.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other is really the importance of understanding human potential.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I started my career.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I studied psychology and business, and I actually always thought that I would go into psychology.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: I even had a scholarship, but then PG, Procten Gamble, came to recruit for the first time ever in my university, and everyone's like, Oh, you need to, you're not coming to the presentation, and I went.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember what captured me there is the boldness.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was a guy that started six months ago, and he's like, You're in the driver's seats, and you know, the trust that the company gives you.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I decided to apply.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: I got accepted.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: I remember, you know, one of the only, I think we were four, the only woman.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I came home to my then boyfriend, and I'm like, Oh, hey, I got accepted to this company in Geneva.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes, Whoa, Geneva, great skiing, let's go.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how we started our bold journey.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess part of my boldness is having a even super bold.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm learning a lot from my hubby, and he's been the wind beneath my wings 30 years, but because he's so you know spontaneous, and many things in my life happen because we're like, hey, let's take the opportunity.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I always say everyone gets opportunities, most people are blind to them.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that's bold.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Bold is kind of also saying, hey, why not?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we went, we moved to Geneva and I started my career in Procten Gamble, and I'll just share a little bit the story in a way that led me to what I'm doing today.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: We spent uh five years in Geneva.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Another bold story is my husband, you know, his boss wanted him in Moscow.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I came back to PNG and I'm like, hey, you know, I'm ready to move to Moscow sometime in a year or two.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And again, they came back a week later and they said, Hey, we have an opportunity, we want you in Moscow.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So again, with two young kids, age one and two, we moved to Moscow.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: That was bold.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's both.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: I love the spontaneity.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I could tell you even more when they're and everyone we spoke with was super negative.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's cold, it's hard.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: But we looked at each other and we said, wow, what an amazing opportunity for his career that was just starting.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: For my career, it was a developing market for the kids.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: We could get all the help that we couldn't afford in Geneva.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was kind of, and it turned out to be, you know, crazy, uh exciting, but also very rewarding.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, that's where I guess I had a crash course in work-life balance, but I made it work, even though we spent sometimes three hours commuting in the snow, but my kids just stayed up later and we made it work somehow.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that was that.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we moved back to Geneva.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I had my third child, and then a similar craziness came on where, you know, we were having dinner with one of my ex-bosses who was a mentor, Stasi.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, my husband is like, Oh, I would love to move to Asia for my kids to learn Chinese.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is the developing market.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: We were kind of just throwing it like out there.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And again, a week later, he calls me from talent review and he's like, Do you still want Asia?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Tomorrow.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Okay, that's all I needed to know.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Close the phones, and I'm like, Hey, uh, well, uh, how tomorrow?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are we doing?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: He calls me, he's like, Okay, there's a role in Singapore, but it literally is tomorrow.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: I need an answer by Monday.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I remember we were like, oh my god, this is crazy.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but we did it, and uh, you know, we moved to Singapore back in 2010.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one element of boldness, like really recognizing opportunities and stepping forward.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: The other dimension that is about leading from the heart.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll tell you the story of two extremes.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: When I started working in PNG, I um I was in my boss's office because one of my launches hit a wall, and I was getting so frustrated, and I don't know about you, but when I get frustrated, I tear up.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I was sitting in his office, and this tear rolls down my cheek, and I'm like freaking out, right?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm sitting in my general manager, okay, my manager's manager officer, and he kind of smiles at me and he offers me a box of tissues and you know, calms me down.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And when I, you know, I frantically try to regain my composure, and when I'm finally there, he kind of he he put his hand on mine and he's like, he looked me dead in the eye, and he said something that you know he was a great role model for bold leadership.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: But he he said to me, Dahlia, don't you ever be embarrassed for crying in the office?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a sign of your passion, and passion is your superpower.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then he said, and if you ever work for someone that doesn't appreciate that, walk away, they don't deserve you.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you, he was such an amazing role model, and I was so empowered.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I had many managers actually that like him that, you know, believed in me more than I believed in myself and encouraged me to be bold.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, in that scenario, being bold was, you know, I would come up with an idea and he was like, amazing, why didn't we do it a week ago?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that was boldness in those years.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I'll give you the example.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, only when my career really hits the lowest point, I realized what exactly he meant.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so 17 years later, PG moved me to Singapore, as I mentioned.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: My husband opened a startup, and then PG said, We need you now back in Geneva.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I'm sorry, you know, I need to put my money where my mouth is on dual career.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we always kind of said we're managing our career together.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: My husband just opened our startup, I can't move back.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, they couldn't keep me in uh Singapore.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: We decided to part as friends, the PG and I.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I decided to take uh a role as chief marketing officer for another Fortune 500 company.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was a huge jump, so that's another kind of element.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, hey, bring it on.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love the you know, the CEO's vision and the CMO's vision, and they basically wanted me to create a marketing department from zero, from a company that was very product-led to a company that's very consumer-led.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's another element.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: I never thought, you know, is it good for my career?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I always chose roles that I thought found I could make an impact.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that was another element.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then it was it ended up working well for my career.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I always guide people, you know, when you're so focused on is it right for my career?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's no such thing as a small role, it's really what you make on it.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: It and this started as nothing.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have a budget, I didn't have a team, you know, and I built it to 100 people uh in Asia.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a great from from zero to a hundred, right?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: But everything seemed like a dream role.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sadly, two months into the role, I got a new boss, and you know, it took me a week to realize that him and I are like water and fire, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm all about people and creativity, and he's all about numbers and scorecard and ROI, return on investment, and the culture most days was ROI or you die.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of a you know how we felt most days.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I remember he called me up one day and he said, Hey, I'm not going to tell you what you're good at.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I find it a total waste of time.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of okay, and then he says, um, and yeah, there's no art in marketing, it's only science.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: You just didn't get it yet.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, kind of imagine stab and turn.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I felt it that way.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and this was someone who who didn't hire you, right?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, this is someone else hired me.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would have known I'm going to report to that person.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: I probably wouldn't have joined, but I joined a global CMO and a global C CEO that I loved.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and this this was the local uh manager, okay?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: But he was he was 70% of my manager, if you like.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: At least he thought he was.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, one day he calls me up to his office and he starts giving me feedback.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now I love feedback, we used to call it tough love, right?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Direct, no sugar coating, because you know, I don't we don't grow when we sugarcoat, but really critical is that the feedback is given from a position of care.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you that day there was no love, it was only the tough, denigrating, personal, humiliating, belittling everything you want.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sitting there in the office getting frustrated.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you remember kind of what happens when I get frustrated, but I'm like the only C-suite woman on his team, I'm holding it in, and then he starts insulting my team, and that's why I became a lioness because I knew how hard they worked, and unfairness makes me super frustrated.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm that's when I lost it, right?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And a tear dropped down my my cheek, and he smiles at me and he offers me a box of tissues.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And for a moment, I had this warm, fuzzy feeling remembering my first boss, right?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I lift my eyes, and I literally want you to imagine, I'm kind of sitting there and I lift my eyes, and I notice something almost weird, evil in his smile.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he turns around with this grin on his face.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: He turns around the tissue box, and Lee, I can't believe my eyes.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, on the other side of that tissue box was a hand-made sticker he prepared in advance, which read Dahlia's tissue box.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: This is where I would about fall out of my chair, in the sense of, you know, obviously a very frustrating moment, a very personal moment where someone is like if you use the word degrading, and you know, like you know, so from the perspective of he's not a nice person.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: He would make me cry, and he thought it was the funny joke, right?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think like I'm an easy pushover, right?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: I would agree.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Are you kidding me?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is an HR assault, and he sits back and he's like, Oh, Dahlia, don't be so emotional, it's just boy banter.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know you have a sense of humor.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the interesting thing, okay, is I was a gymnast.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so for me, it was all about stamina.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm not going to quit.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: He will quit.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: People ask me how come you didn't walk out.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I asked myself until today, okay.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think there were a few things.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: One was this, okay.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why should I quit?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: He should, right?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the other was a practical element.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: My husband was building his company, I was the only breadwinner for a few good years.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: I really loved what I was doing, okay.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you something that I I don't tell in many interviews, but six months into the role, I had a lunch with the lady that placed me in the role.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was honest and and bold, and I gave feedback to the global HR when they came down and to the local HR, and they told him off, and you know, and I, but there wasn't enough done on it.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm sitting there and I'm chatting with her, and I'm still being loyal and I'm saying, hey, this is the good things, this is the bad things.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then she stops me and she says, Hey, I know he can be an asshole.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: He has that reputation.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're the only one that can change it.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: I know her intentions were really good, right?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: But what she did is suddenly I had a bonus chip on my shoulder.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: In the sense, right, that I had a mission.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to coach him.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: She gave you an assignment, right?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like she almost gave you assignment and almost like a sense of responsibility.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: You never should have been given that.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Not that you can't handle it, but that's a pretty tough assignment.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I did have challenging bosses in the past, also with PG.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I always had this equity of because I'm, you know, Israeli and bold and direct, I'm very good in managing up because I really do tough love.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I did the research on this.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: I when I left, I I studied.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I did they say research is me search, and you will you will understand that from your background.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I did my my my INSAD master's degree, and my research question is can you coach yourself out of a toxic environment?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And my answer was yes and no.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: So my answer was yes in the sense, yeah, not a very good day answer, but almost like I was like leaning into the phone.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's the answer to that one?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because I bet a lot of people can relate.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the yes was you can build resilience.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And my career today is about helping people build resilience and joy in the workplace.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I developed a whole model, it's called, I call it the 5P model.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: You can build resilience and happiness, finding your purpose and focusing on physical wellness.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you all the things that I did.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I had probably the best three years outside of work at that time, okay?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, teaching yoga and coaching, and I did everything I could to build my resilience.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I always say start with that, start with what you can learn.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I also was really eager to learn.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was really eager to understand maybe there's something about me that I need to change, right?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: But the no part comes from you know, you can build resilience.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the research, the more resilient, when you're in a toxic environment, the more resilient you are, the more you bring about bullying.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what happened is something that the you know the research shows the dance of death because what he wanted is recognition.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: What I wanted was recognition.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: He was determined not to give me the recognition that I was seeking, and I was determined not to give him any recognition because you know he was completely misbehaving, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we was super nice to me on a personal side, okay.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Even trying to befriend, it was kind of playing with my head.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's the bottom line.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was a mind game.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I was determined not to leave because I'm a gymnast and I don't quit.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: That was my upbringing.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: I do not quit.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: So first year was all about, you know, fight, and I gave feedback and I volunteered, and that's why I got the nickname Miss Kumbaya, because I was too positive, right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Second year, I, you know, flight, I hired a data scientist to give him all his data that he needed.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I literally avoided conflict in a way.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of that year, I delivered my scorecard, but I literally fell physically sick because I felt like I left my heart and my art in the doorway.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it was only third year that what triggered it was actually interesting.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I attended a PNG alumni event where we talked about bold leadership and we talked about servant leadership, and we talked about leading from the heart.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember Lee, I literally plunked myself in the chair, and I'm like, oh my God, I'm a frog in boiling water.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is what culture should look like.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in a toxic environment and I need to get out of that.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: That was my wake-up call.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: There and then I made the decision to leave.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, what happened in the third year?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's when the boldness came.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because, in a very weird way, and I will admit that year one and year two, I allowed an emotion that never entered my life to enter, which was fear.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And when I think about it now, I'm like, why would I fear one person?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, and that's where I always say literally, if it happened to me, it can happen to anyone.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I fired four men for misconduct of other women because I was head of the women's network.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know what abuse looks like in the workplace, but I didn't recognize it on myself for so long because I had this mission that I'm the only one that can change him, right?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: But at that event, I'm like, shit, I have fear.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not allowing this emotion to enter my life.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's when I decided to drop fear.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I'm going to leave at the end of the year, but not before I deliver everything that I committed to my team and you know, my management, the CEO and the CMO.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: I need to bring back my strengths to the workplace, right?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Which is my heart and heart.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I brought back my heart, focused on my team, created a family.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, when I left, we we got the best culture scores ever.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we were rated as a family, which made me very proud.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to shield everyone and focus on what I love, which is building teams.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then we also created a campaign that was very data-driven, but also very creative.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what worked for me there was, you know, dropping the fear and really thinking win-win.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I often say when you're dealing with adversary, you know, how can you think win-win, which is dancing with adversary?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: The boldness there was kind of going all in and trusting my heart and saying, you know, I uh I'm going with what I believe in and I'm going to prove my way there.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when we finished that meeting and the CEO says, yeah, we're going ahead with the commercial.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was that was a huge sense of, you know, heart victory, right?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: That uh sometimes you just need to really trust your guts and uh and it's scary.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: But in this case, I said, you know, what do I have to lose?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And people ask me, you know, what am I learning?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I answered you um in one way that my research is yes and no.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: One learning is you can build resilience and you should.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Build resilience, but up to a limit.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to a stage that you're asked to change beyond your value, that's when the red line is drawn.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one thing is really naming what you're going through.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess you know, I learned you can't, you know, you can't change someone that doesn't want to change.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can't coach yourself out of a toxic environment.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can't be all heart.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's an important one, especially for women.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I tried with empathy to understand.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I love someone shared with me Muhammad Ali's quote, float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I was too much in my empathy.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you need to get into your positive masculine, which is the assertive.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And basically the no of my answer is the only strategy to deal with a toxic environment is zero tolerance.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's my learning.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Zero tolerance means when it happens for the first time, you nip it in the bud, in the sense, not go to complain to each other, that's not enough.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Go and say, sorry, you're not going to talk to me like that.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to leave and I'm happy to have a discussion when you're willing to talk with me to me with respect.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is proven that women deal with uh frustration with emotion, becoming, you know, teary or sad or emotional, and men deal with it with anger.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And somehow in the business world, anger is a more acceptable reaction than tearing.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, they're both reaction to me being emotional or being passionate about what I'm doing.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like what's tolerated in the workplace or accepted versus what is seen as inappropriate.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because I can definitely think of a time or two in my career where I got so frustrated that you know a tear or two fell and I had to say, oh, I'm not crying because I'm upset.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm crying because I'm angry.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And or you know, like in the sense of like, this isn't a I don't know, like why did I even have to say that, right?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's and that's even better than saying, you know, apologizing or hiding or trying to hide.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, sorry, this is my reaction because I'm angry.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's because you touch something that's really important for me.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: I always say I, you know, in a paraphrase for Cheryl Sandberg quote, I want every girl and boy and every employee, you know, that are told that they're too emotional to understand that emotions are, you know, a sign of passion and not a weakness.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that passion is there, it's superpower.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: The last kind of bold step in my my journey, in a way, was deciding to jump and you know, to leave a career that was extremely lucrative because I was really kind of you know sought after for that uh for that job.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I can tell you, I left um and I opened my own uh consultancy business and I started building myself up.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I decided to take a time out uh to study, and I signed up and I did the INSAD, my degree in organizational psychology, because I knew I wanted to go back to psychology, and then I gave a talk in a women's forum and I met Talbin Shachau, who became my second career mentor, if you like.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I gave a talk there, and at the end of the talk, I noticed he came to listen to me, and that was such a you know, I was so touched by that.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then I walked to him and he said, Wow, that was such amazing stories.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: You need to speak on Ted and you need to write a book.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember literally looking over my shoulder and saying, Me, but my stories are any girl next door, and he kind of said, Yeah, that's why they're so important.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I decided, you know, another bold kind of decision was to take two years off with very low income.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was just mainly doing coaching and to do the studying in NCAD.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he invited me to join a Happiness Studies Academy, and I just sat down to write my story.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be, you know, not a regular self-help book, but one that's written from someone from the trenches.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: That, you know, I really see this triad of once a marketeer, always a marketer.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a lot of storytelling, I have a lot of scientific backing, okay, to bring the left brain in.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm like, but so what?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And every kind of chapter finishes with a what can you do about it, and a worksheet, etc.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that editing took me the time.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the next stage had to be very bold.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I learned a new skill, which is called surrender.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess that was the bravest thing I ever done, which is, you know, and Michael Anger wrote the book on experiment in surrender, which I highly recommend.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was really an important pivot for me, which is all around being clear on when you're heading, even if you don't have all the steps figured out.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to have it all figured out to make your first step.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I took a step, I knew roughly where I wanted to go, and I was just experimenting with how to get there.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: The pivot moment that actually led me to do what I'm doing today is again an amazing opportunity came.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: I did a volunteer project with the embassy.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I took this big project, it's a company called Tom Ticunola making, an amazing global company that links the makers' community with people with special needs.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful project.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I was the CEO of Singapore, you know, for a year to create the first event.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it was by luck.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: We presented it to the Singapore Management University, which is the biggest university.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, you know, a great success.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted to, you know, recruit some of the makers there and to get their support.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And towards the end, I was there with the ambassador.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the late and the president said, Hey, next year we're going to do a course on happiness.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And she knew what I was doing with Tal Ben Shachal.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, Ah, well, you have, you know, the happiness expert, one of Tal's first students in Asia.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And she turned to me and she's like, Oh, we admire Tal.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Would you be willing to consult us on the syllabus for the course?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, sure.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And this is again another crazy opportunity.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I sat there three months creating a syllabus, thinking, I'm just a consultant.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I had this presentation and I consulted, and at the end, they're like, This is great.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can you start teaching in a month?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Being a university teacher was one of my goals, but I didn't exactly know how it would happen.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I sat and I wrote a university course, and that led me to what I'm doing today because one of my workshops that I do, and the favorite thing I do today is find your why.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I did the course for these 23-year-old young, young Singaporeans.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of it, the student stands up and he says to me, Thank you, prof.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: I now know what my purpose is, but I know I need to be a corporate slave for a few years, and then I'll do what I love.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: You ask me what was the pivot moment, that was the pivot moment.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, my my hair stood up in the back, and I realized that I don't want the generation, I don't want my kids ever to feel like corporate slaves.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want any of the young generation because I know it doesn't have to be like that.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I 17 years, I was, you know, every day in a state of flow, almost every day, right?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I decided that would be my mission to work with individuals and companies and bringing purpose and joy to the workplace.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: So today I have a year-long program, a leadership development program that, you know, I ran with the Microsoft, Google, Facebook of the world.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we call it the Aspiring Leaders Program, because I believe you need to really, you know, talk to managers just before they become leaders, because there's a huge difference between being a manager and being a leader, and not many understand the skill set difference.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all about, you know, the courage for leading from the heart.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I poured all of that knowledge into the book that's really kind of accompanies my course and helps helps individuals, anyone who reads them, or that's the aim, really go through the what does courage in their life look like?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: What would they do if they weren't afraid?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll finish off with this purpose is really important.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's my number one course, and it's the first thing, and it's the first chapter, and really it's the first chapter of your self-development work, because purpose is proven to build resilience, to help, you know, he who has a why can enjoy any how, it builds relationships or decision-making criteria because I do get opportunities and I measure them against my purpose and I say, no, they're not aligned with my purpose, I let them go.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: But if they are aligned with my purpose, even if it's a if it's in a way that I didn't think about, right?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think I'll be a founder of a edutech.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's aligned with your purpose, go ahead.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll just end with that and I'll say that, you know, my motto in life is have an idea of where you're headed, but don't forget to enjoy the view on the way.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning you need to have these two in balance, you know, this drive and determination and this decision making of goals, but you know, also being goals free you to enjoy the here and now.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of also for me courage.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's knowing to balance these two, otherwise, you get burnt out when you're too much on your goals and you don't know to enjoy the view on the way.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my last dimension of courage.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think this has been a very inspiring discussion.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: I could talk to you for hours, I think, about the different things that you know we experience or commonalities that exist.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Want to encourage everyone to go get your book, Dare to Lead Like a Girl.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not there when it launches this Friday.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: So Lee is going to take a picture in a bookstore.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's that would be a big moment for me.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I will do that for sure.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Just really want to thank you for your time today.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know you're extremely busy and I appreciate you doing the mobile version of the Bold Lounge.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Lee.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.