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86: Sobriety Myths Busted w/ Michael Hardenbrook, Amanda Kuda & Colleen Kachmann · Harder Than Life

• 0:00
  I'm Kelly Siegel, and this is Harder Than Life, a podcast about self-love, self-awareness, business, and health. We tell outrageous stories and boil everything down to simple, practical advice you can start using today. Let's get living.
• 0:15
  Welcome to the Harder Life Podcast, where we delve into the struggles and triumphs that define our journeys. I'm your host, Kelly Siegel, and today we're taking a closer look at the topic that touches many lives, our relationship with alcohol. My own transformation began the day I decided to quit drinking. It was a pivotal moment that opened my eyes to the vast possibilities of life beyond alcohol.
• 0:36
  Whether you're questioning your drinking habits, in recovery, or simply curious about the role alcohol plays in our lives, today's episode is for you. Joining me are three renowned experts who will share their insights on getting in better alignment with alcohol, exploring its impacts, and understanding how we can live a richer, more fulfilling life without it.
• 0:58
  So whether you're listening over a morning coffee or during a quiet moment alone, let's uncover the deeper narratives behind alcohol use, its challenges, and the profound life changes that await on the other side of the decision. Let's get started, but first let me introduce you to Amanda Kuda, Colleen Krakeman, and Mike Hardenbrook. Welcome to the show, guys. I'm going to kick it off, and I'm going to go to my favorite person, Colleen, because she gives it to us.
• 1:23
  straight. What is the biggest myth about cutting back on alcohol that you think needs to be debunked?
• 1:29
  Well, I think the biggest myth is that it's hard and that you can't change and that there's only one way to do it. I think the biggest myth is the fixed mindset that you're not capable of knowing what's best for yourself and that you have to decide in this moment and make a decision that you have to honor for the rest of your life instead of the fact that we're growing as human beings over time.
• 1:59
  that it, once you have a problem that that somehow changes the course of your life. Ooh, microphone drop. Way to start us off. Thank you so much. You know what? I'm going to go around the table and ask everybody the same question. Amanda, same thing to you. What's the biggest myth about cutting back an alcohol that you think needs to be debunked?
• 2:17
  I think the biggest thing, the thing that I really needed to hear when I was deciding to change my relationship with alcohol is that you don't need to have a problem with alcohol for alcohol to be a problem in your life. You can quit drinking void of a rock bottom, void of any outwardly distinguishable issues. You can quit drinking just because you have a sense that it's holding you back. And I did not understand that. I felt naive to that. I thought that you had to.
• 2:41
  Sobriety was something that was kind of a secret club for people who had an addiction or were needing recovery support. And while those paths are very important...
• 2:51
  people who just are casual and social drinkers can have problems that are created by alcohol as well. And in my own life, I know that I was not living up to my own potential because of the space that alcohol was taking up. And for me, that's a problem because that also didn't feel good. And I want people to know that you do not have to have a problem with alcohol for it to be a problem in your life. And if you feel like it's contributing to you being out of alignment with what's possible for you, then it's absolutely a problem.
• 3:17
  That is well said. And I want to take this second to, if you're watching this, Unbottled Potential is the name of the book that Amanda wrote. I just finished reading it and I found myself extremely resonating with that because I believe that at the other side of this, that's where I was at. I think I had a problem, but definitely it was a, it was a problem. So I found that I actually underlined that exact line. Um, so yeah,
• 3:44
  The very unique thing, spoiler alert, everybody, is that all three people here take a different path. And it's not necessarily sobriety. I think, Amanda, I believe you're the only one that says you shouldn't drink at all. I know Colleen believes in one or one or two. And I know Mike is one or two as well. I love that it's just diverse. It's just that's why I name this. I call it rethinking drinking. It's just it's just.
• 4:10
  Why are we doing it? So again, Mike, what's your answer to that? What's the biggest myth about cutting back on alcohol that you think needs to be debunked?
• 4:21
  I mean, I think I'd go along the lines of what Amanda said, is that basically to cut back doesn't necessarily mean that you have to have a use disorder because 47 million are estimated to have a use disorder, but another 100 million are estimated to think that they're struggling with substances in some way or another. And so I think the biggest myth is, number one, if you're thinking about cutting back that you're denying the...
• 4:47
  sentiment of abstinence only. It's not our one all or nothing path. You could start out with cutting back and
• 4:56
  move forward. And as you get more clear and align with the progress that you've made, you might get to a point where abstinence actually makes more sense and you've gotten yourself into a place to make a better decision. Because usually when you're having to make those kind of decisions where you're saying, hey, this is actually a problem, or this is something that I want to change, it might not be the best point. So I think the biggest myth is that there's only one all or nothing entry point into changing your relationship with alcohol.
• 5:23
  I love that we all agree with that. I got to tell you, I was doing some research for this and I just wanted to know how much taxes the U.S. government took in from alcohol. And it's $10.8 billion in taxes. And then I just took it another step further. Even though we don't talk about cannabis, it's just yet another crutch.
• 5:47
  In the short time that it's legal in not all 50 states, we've already taken an $8.5 billion. So 20 billion, with a B, dollars in taxes. So there's no way in heck that the United States government is gonna help us help ourselves. So having said that, what is the most surprising benefit
• 6:12
  Your clients have experience from drinking less. And again, I'm going to start with you, Colleen, because it's just you're going to hit it right in the mouth. Well, my my thing is that once you get alcohol under control or you stop drinking, whatever your goal is, you realize it's not about the alcohol. Alcohol, like you said, is a crutch.
• 6:36
  And so the reason you're over drinking is because you're avoiding, you don't know how to have fun without it. Like there's a set of beliefs, whether it's about alcohol directly, because you don't know it's a biphasic drug and anything over 0.055, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. You know, we're not taught how to properly use the drug alcohol because we treat it like a food group or a sport. Yeah.
• 7:00
  And it's neither of those things. It's a drug. And if you're an educated adult and you know how to use it properly, that's fine. But what my clients find is like every single one of them about three, four weeks in are like, oh my God, it really isn't about the alcohol. It's about my anxiety. It's about, I don't know what else to do with my life. I think Amanda spoke to this where the problem is there's no alternate version of you doing something else.
• 7:29
  You don't know who you would be without alcohol. It's the blind spot that's the problem. Once you fill your life with purpose and power and you're doing things, the alcohol situation takes care of itself because powerful people don't drink themselves into a stupor. They don't need to escape their own minds. You're beautiful. That's the name of your book. It should be your book. It's not about the alcohol. That's my podcast. That's the name of the podcast.
• 7:58
  Every one of you are coaches that can be worked with that is there here to help. To riff on that, Kelly, can I riff on what Colleen said?
• 8:08
  Which is basically that, you know, most people are going to drink because the number one driver is to relieve pain. So whatever that source that you were talking about is to relieve the pain or to get pleasure. And then the habits-based neuroscience segment of that is the brain is searching for extremely efficient habits. And so if your likelihood to outcome, as in the likelihood of you doing something and the outcome being positive, your brain is going to say that's a highly efficient habit. And alcohol 100% in the short term
• 8:37
  will relieve pain or bring some pleasure to you, even though long-term it's not thinking in those. And so it really, if you don't get to the source, it turns into a habit and then the reward is 100% versus like something like replacing it with meditation. You know, you might feel 50% of the time feel better from doing that. So it makes it a difficult habit for people to break, even if they don't classify in the alcohol use disorder category.
• 9:04
  I want to use this time to, to remind everybody that Mike's latest book just came out. No willpower required this. I did a review about it and posted it on my wall. It's this, this thing is, was fabulous. He gets into the neuroscience, like he just said. So Mike can be worked with as well and is got a genius output of, of what this looks like. So Amanda, you want to throw anything out in there?
• 9:31
  Yeah, I'd love to take the conversation a little existential from that question of what are the experiences? And what I noticed with all of my clients is that they're incredibly ambitious, they're incredibly capable, they're incredibly high achieving. And yet alcohol is a way I work primarily with women, but this also applies to my male clients. Alcohol is a way that we create a kind of a glass ceiling for ourselves and we keep ourselves stuck in good enough.
• 9:54
  So we're all doing good enough work, but because we're high achievers, our good enough is higher than most people's great. And so we feel like we're checking all of the boxes when in reality, we have this whole other level of success that's available to us. But on some level, we don't believe we're worthy or we create these fears around what will happen if that happens, if I create and achieve that level of success.
• 10:14
  And one of the ways that we can keep ourselves stuck that are completely invisible to the naked eye, it's completely socially acceptable. No one would ever say, you know, Kelly, you could probably do more, do better if you stop drinking because you're already doing so great. It's probably incredible and sometimes intimidating to other people. But you would be surprised what you are capable of if you would just get out of your own way. And one of the fastest ways that you can do that is to remove alcohol from the picture.
• 10:41
  I'm going to come right back at you and challenge that as well. And Colin, I saw your hand, but I want to come right back at you and ask you questions. Anytime I tell people I don't want to drink, I was just at a wedding. I officiated a wedding and people are like, oh, you're not drinking. What are the, inevitably when I tell people I don't drink, they say, oh, I don't have a problem. What is the, the.
• 11:04
  I don't want to put people on the spot. A, that's the first thing that says you have a problem, number one. Number two is what in your expertise have you seen when somebody says, oh, I just, I have to have it for social drinking, to be in social situations. And then what would be the signs that alcohol is out of alignment in your life?
• 11:25
  Yeah, so ultimately, I think that when you believe that, when you tell yourself that story that you have to have it, there is a lack of inner worth. There's a lack of your own ability to handle whatever life can throw at you, be that a social situation or a tough emotion. And people don't wanna hear that. That's a big punch in the gut to hear, well, if you believe that you need alcohol to survive out there, then that's a self-worth issue.
• 11:51
  And kind of speaking to what Colleen said earlier, it's always something under the habit that you're hiding and running from. And because we like to portray ourselves as confident and outgoing people, and we feel like that's what alcohol helps us do as well, we would never want to admit that we have a self-worth issue. But let me tell you what, I've worked with Grammy Award winners, I've worked with celebrities, and all of these people report the same things, that they feel like an imposter at the end of the day.
• 12:16
  And if people who you're admiring and who are succeeding at that level are still feeling like that, then of course, an average person is going to have those issues as well. And if we can just embrace that sometimes there are little pieces of us that don't feel worthy, that ask the question, who am I to be happy, to be outgoing, to be successful, then we are doing ourselves a major favor by investigating why are we using this substance that keeps us stuck in this kind of BS thinking mentality. Right.
• 12:43
  Well, society glamorizes it as well. You see all the cool people, you know, showing alcohol, and then all the big celebrities are all buying tequila companies. So it is an uphill battle. Colleen, I see you dancing around. I know you have an opinion. Please tell us. Well, I just wanted to riff on what Amanda was saying in that –
• 13:04
  We are holding ourselves back. The biggest mistake my clients think is that their inner rebel wants to be free. You know who's getting you drunk? Your inner good girl who's afraid of your own power. You're using alcohol to silence yourself because you don't want to admit that you deserve more or want more. You know, you're hanging around with a bunch of basic people.
• 13:28
  And your mind is ready to go and you want to explode and you just numb and dumb yourself because the good girl in you doesn't want to make changes or doesn't want to admit that you're capable of more. And so we use alcohol to keep ourselves stuck. But it's not our inner bad girl. Our inner bad girl is fighting for her right to party. She just has some bad information.
• 13:49
  about what it means to be free, you know, to be able to speak and think and do what you want uninhibited. Well, alcohol doesn't get you that. But so the inner bad girl's got a little maturity issue. She's got the right idea, but it's the good girl that's pouring the drinks because it keeps you small.
• 14:06
  I want to point out that Colleen works with women only. And what she just said is very true for men as well. I can attest to that hit me. Boom, right in there. I just gave that same dialogue very similar to my 15-year-old daughter last night. She's going to a party tonight.
• 14:26
  half the kids drink at 15, yes, half of them don't. And I said, you've got to look and examine the people that you're hanging out with and is that what you wanna be known for? So you just said, holding ourselves back, hanging out with basic people, numb and dumb. Bam, thank you Colleen. Mike, I'm gonna give you the same question and you can just keep going on that. Well, I think what you're saying is basically
• 14:53
  A fortunate thing I think that's going on is that the societal narrative is starting to change. But to actually question somebody on an unhealthy habit, we've been trained by marketing, by societal, just trends are luckily going in the other direction now where people are, I've seen it even for myself, people are accepting...
• 15:13
  the answer, like I'm taking a break or I'm not drinking right now, or I just don't drink. I see a lot less pushback, which is, you know, fortunate on that point. Amanda, what is California sober and what benefits does it give?
• 15:33
  Yeah, so Cali-sober is the phrase that people use when you choose to not drink alcohol. So you're sober from alcohol, but you're not sober from other substances, but typically cannabis, which I identify as alcohol-free. I don't partake in cannabis, but I know a lot of people who start to use that then as their secondary source of self-regulation. And I don't have necessarily opinion about it either way, but I think that there are, well, that's not true.
• 15:59
  I think that if you use it in a regulated fashion, but most people are turning to it as a secondary source of numbing quite frequently. Or with other psychedelics, I see that quite often as well. So Cali-Sober is the... You're removing alcohol, but you're still open to other substances, specifically cannabis and THC. Mike, do you...
• 16:22
  Are you pro-California sober? I think cannabis can be a really good tool in the way that Amanda's saying that it shouldn't be a habitual replace one habit with another one. Like, let's say you have nightly wine and now you're smoking every single night. I think that...
• 16:39
  potentially like it could be a stepping stone and not a long-term solution to move from one habit to another that maybe is easier to let go. But I do think that you have to be, you have to bring mindfulness to it. You have to not just light up or eat a gummy whenever you just feel like it. And then it's pushing down those feelings of anxiety or I need it.
• 17:01
  to socialize and, you know, on the socialize thing, it's interesting, so people might say, I have to drink to be able to go out so that I can socialize normally, but they might be doing self-medicating to be doing something that they don't even enjoy normally. So there's, you know, something called a sober test. So start doing the things that you do normally when you drink and see if you actually enjoy them. And you might find very quickly that six hours at a bar isn't very much fun at all.
• 17:28
  The sober test. This is my first time hearing that. That's brilliant. Do sober what you should drink and you won't enjoy doing it. Colleen, I want to end that topic with you because the way that you put things on a bow on it, it's just phenomenal. So again, California sober, what's your opinion on it?
• 17:51
  I think that you don't have to put labels on shit. Like you can use a tool here and there. You don't have to get in a box. Like a label is a box that predicts your behavior. We're all agreeing and we're putting ourselves in an echo chamber. To me, the only label I have for people is you are either a person who knows how to manage your mind or you are a person who is being managed by your mind and your anxiety and your thought patterns.
• 18:16
  If you are one of the few percentage of people, the successful and powerful people know how to walk through the world and process their emotions while they walk and talk at the same time. And if you can get that skill, then in my opinion, it doesn't really matter if you want to chill out with a glass of wine or hit a one or whatever they say. I don't do that because it puts me to sleep and it doesn't, I always think the cops are coming and whatever. It doesn't work for me.
• 18:43
  I like a glass of wine. That's my thing. But the bottom line is I would never pour alcohol on my anxiety or my stress or fear or anger. It's like my, I got to have a clear, you know, place in my body. I care for my body first. And I think that,
• 19:00
  setting the goal to become a person who can self-regulate without substances. That's a fucking superpower in today's world. And very few people have that. And if you can clear fear, anxiety, insecurity, all of that, and still take actions in spite of those emotions, then you will rise to the top of wherever it is you're going. As usual, you're just giving me clip after clip after clip, uh, poor drinks, poor alcohol on my fear, anxiety, and limited beliefs. Um,
• 19:29
  That's probably why I don't drink. I don't have, I have, I have addressed them all. And, you know, there's always little ones that pop up, but I have the routines and the habits and rituals and the, and the tools required to deal with those as they pop up. And none of them require alcohol. That's probably why I just, I don't drink anything, but not because there's a problem. I just choose not to. So, and I, which brings me to, I remember being with, sitting with my therapist going, what do people do?
• 19:58
  that don't drink, where do they meet people? And man, how do they have any fun? So how do you help clients overcome the fear of missing out on social events when they cut back on drinking? Start with you this time, Colleen. Well, what you have to understand is the fear of social events, that's a thinking problem. So bottom line is you have to feel confident about how you're showing up. Zero people care what's in your glass.
• 20:27
  And so blaming the situation is missing the opportunity to learn how to self-regulate your emotions. I teach something like a thought model where, okay, what's the unintentional thoughts? Oh, people think I'm weird because I'm not drinking. Well, that's going to make you feel weird because you're not drinking.
• 20:44
  How do you want to think in choosing the thought you want to think on purpose? Like, how do I want to feel about not drinking? I want to feel like I'm a badass and you guys are all basic bitches, like whatever. I want to feel good and proud and confident of myself, which means you have to think that on purpose. And then when the other feeling comes up that reminds you that thought pattern is still ingrained, then you stop, drop, feel, and then redirect your brain. I mean, there's just a simple process for managing your mind.
• 21:14
  I want to challenge you on something. You said zero people care what's in your glass. I find that people that are out of alignment do care. So because it's that age old misery loves company and and hates being alone. So I'm down the path and out of alignment. I'm criticizing. I had a friend that like I'd say I'm not drinking today and he would just fuck.
• 21:37
  pour a drink and he would carry follow me around with it till I eventually succumb so I you know that's just my experience I don't know how to be fact but you know that's why I think you went back to the you know you're hanging out with basic people because a basic person's like oh cool
• 21:53
  Why would you pour alcohol into your body to make somebody with a seventh grade frat house specialist hazing person? Why would you put alcohol in your body to normalize their behavior for them? If they're uncomfortable, maybe they should just drink more so they don't feel it. I don't make other people's feelings my problem.
• 22:13
  I think it flips the script a little bit when you understand that it has nothing to do with yourself. And so in that point, you can relieve yourself of having to please that other person. And you can see there's cognitive dissonance going on. Like either to them, you're not part of the club or you make them feel bad about themselves. So I think that really helped me. And I know that it helps others with that.
• 22:42
  because then you realize it has nothing to do with you. But Mike, address specifically the FOMO, the fear of missing out. So I... Yeah, yeah, I want to answer that too. Yeah. So I actually think that, to use the word again, flip the script, I think you need to concentrate not on what you're missing and what you're actually gaining. And so if you're going to a party, maybe it might not be the same rowdy experience you might have had in the past,
• 23:11
  But you also can figure, you can also focus on, I get to wake up early tomorrow. I might actually go mountain biking and meet some friends. I might wake up and call a friend because I have no anxiety in the morning and I feel clear and I can connect with people. Or I might go to a farmer's market, who knows, whatever your thing is.
• 23:29
  For me, it was like mountain biking. I got really into mountain biking, started racing, super social, have tons of friends now through that. If I hadn't changed my habits, I would have missed out on a lot more social opportunities. And sometimes it's just a matter of like...
• 23:46
  You don't think I can't have a glass of wine tonight. It's more like actually tomorrow I'm going to wake up early, clear headed. I love my coffee and sitting there and still like watching the sun come up. Like if you focus on what you're actually gaining and not what you're restricting yourself, it gets a lot easier.
• 24:02
  So good. Amanda, do you, I, I, I'm going to deviate for one second because I just was reading in, in some notes I took on your book. I did not realize until I've gotten to know the three of you that everybody experiences anxiety when they're hung over. I didn't know that. I thought it was just a me thing. So I'm,
• 24:27
  If you want the number one benefit, that's a little known fact. I had, I called it hang-ziety.
• 24:33
  I wanted to like literally kill myself after a bender before I quit. So if you are listening to this and the day after, and it was, I don't know what it was, Mondays it was worse. If I drank on a Sunday and Monday came along, even if I had just one drink on that Sunday, Monday I had the worst anxiety ever. So if you're having anxiety,
• 25:00
  And you're drinking. That's the first thing I would look at. So that was a, that was a, so go back to Amanda. How long till you realize that you weren't missing out on anything?
• 25:15
  You know, it wasn't really that long because I started to do kind of what Mike said, which is the sober experiment and putting myself in situations where I otherwise would have drank. And what I realized very quickly is that I was drinking because I was afraid I was going to miss out on two things, connection and fun. And...
• 25:32
  As I was sober in these situations, I realized that no one was connecting. What are we talking about? Like bullshit gossip and Real Housewives stuff in fashion? Like, yes, those are connective mechanisms, but we were small talking. We weren't doing anything deep. And if so, the conversation was forgotten.
• 25:49
  And I was missing out on this supposed fun. But in my perspective, if it's not fun without alcohol, it's probably just not fun. You're doing what Colleen was talking about, which is making your mind dumb and numb to the fact that all of these activities are pretty basic level and you have to dole down your mind to find them enjoyable. That's not real fun. That's that is bypassing. And I just really, as a sober person in these situations, was realizing, okay.
• 26:15
  I'm not getting to connect with my friends. So the thing that I thought I was missing out on actually isn't even happening. I'm basically just spending time next to these warm bodies. And I'm also not really having fun because this situation in and of itself is kind of boring. And once I got clear on those two things, even though it kind of made me feel like an asshole to think those thoughts about, you know, it's not that my friends were not fun. It's that this activity with them was not connected and was not fun in and of itself. So that's what I'm saying.
• 26:42
  If I could take them on a walk or go to coffee and actually have a moment where we were having real life conversations, those were fulfilling. Those were fun. That was real laughter. And once I shifted my mindset and had these realizations, it made it so much easier to just say, I'm only going to go to those activities if my presence is required. I didn't want to become a social recluse, so I still wanted to make it to where
• 27:07
  I could tolerate them if necessary, but this was no longer my, my number one social outlet. I started to shift what I found, what I use for connection and fun. And that made it so easy not to miss out on those things. In fact, do you think that it was just when we, when people want it for connection and fun, do you think they're just bored?
• 27:27
  Yeah. Or they don't know how to. I mean, let me shoot it to you straight. I was not a social butterfly as a teenager. I was someone who felt I was funny as hell, first of all. If I would have been given the chance, I could have had a moment. But I was not the popular kid. I was not cool. I was socially awkward. And so I used alcohol to fit in. And under that was this, under my drinking
• 27:57
  didn't fit in with the popular kids. And so once I kind of grappled with that and realized that I can grow up and gain some skills that I didn't have the opportunity to gain as a teenager, I set myself up for success at a level to create connection and build friendships that I didn't have as a drinker just because I gave myself some awareness and some permission to heal something that was holding me back.
• 28:20
  And the relationships are so much superior and authentic and genuine, real, true connections. Colleen, I saw you taking notes. So do you have something you want to add to that? I just think that many people don't realize that they are not the only ones that's bored with, if you're doing an activity where drinking is the primary activity, you're getting together to drink. Like that's not,
• 28:47
  really a thing. That's not fun. And I bet people would be really surprised to find that they are also dissatisfied with the level of connection. There's probably a lot of people who would be open to doing something else. Especially when I had a drinking problem, I thought everybody had a drinking problem. And that's part of getting in your head about it. But as you're changing your relationship with alcohol, you're going to find that there are other people who are
• 29:15
  would be relieved to, like as Amanda said, meet for a walk or coffee. I think that there's just a lack of connection in our world. And it's just easy to get together and drink. But when that is the primary focus, really nobody's having any fun because that is not providing for a sense of connection. It's just a bunch of people normalizing their own disorders.
• 29:42
  So it's, you got to find something else to do with your time. And that's part of the healing process is having a relationship with yourself to say, what do I experience as fun? Instead of just going to the default, let's get together and drink and then wonder why I feel unfulfilled and disconnected.
• 30:00
  I call the, you know, I drink in friends and then I had moving friends, people that if I had to move, would they come help me? That didn't include alcohol. So if the only people that I would associate with was to be around drinking activities, they're my drinking friends.
• 30:16
  And I got boring fast. But, yeah, it's so good. What's one simple change someone can make today that could significantly affect their drinking habits? Mike, we'll start with you. Well, I actually want to comment one thing about the anxiety thing before I answer that.
• 30:34
  And so I think a lot of people don't realize, especially moderate drinkers, that things like anxiety afterwards is a withdrawal symptom. And withdrawal symptoms actually make it much more difficult to resist. So they might get through the day on the anxiety and then they give in in the evening with decision fatigue. And then another thing a lot of people don't realize is that
• 30:54
  they talk about how poor your sleep is when you drink, but it actually is very poor for several days after, which poor sleep and, you know, your body actually craving this makes it really difficult. And so I think that a big part, and this is part of the,
• 31:09
  what I worked on in my book is that I worked with a naturopathic doctor who worked in a treatment center for 15 years on, there are a ton of natural supplements that you can take to alleviate the anxiety, get you back to more of a homeostasis path with your body, and then alleviate the problems with sleep, at least in the short term. And that really stacks your odds because I mean, at the core, you have to change the behavior and change the habit.
• 31:37
  But there are things that you can do that a lot of people don't with the body that can really support you along the way. And it's not just limited to people that are drinking every single day. This is literally withdraw symptoms for moderate drinkers. Now, wait a minute. That's a great segue. Did you have something that you're working on to address just that? I know it's not out yet. I know it's at the infancy stages. But let's just talk about it. Let's use an infomercial because I found it fabulous.
• 32:04
  It is, so yeah, not to be self promotional, but you asked me. So I have been working with the same doctor. I used the same supplement blend whenever I was going through
• 32:17
  changing my habits and it worked out tremendously. He's been using it with his patients, like I said, in treatment centers for the last 15 years. And what we're working on is an AM PM. So basically during the day to address anxiety and to enhance mood and then in the evening, very much the same to support the body with vitamins and minerals, but also to aid in sleep and with mood in the evening. And basically just get you back either to a place where you don't need alcohol at all
• 32:46
  Or, you know, maybe if your goal is you want to be a mindful drinker, you know, I work with Sunnyside and that's all about cutting back. And if they want to go from every single night to maybe, you know, on a Saturday, they could use that to aid them to get them through the week as well to stick to their commitment. Hold on for my question for two seconds because I want to get a couple of questions. I'm going to get it. I'm going to deviate for a second and get everybody's opinion on this. You know, there's those...
• 33:12
  It's not plan B. I forget. I don't want to publicize the name, but I think one of them is thrive. The post alcohol, take this and eliminate your hangovers. Is it a dead giveaway, Amanda, that if somebody takes that, that they're probably out of alignment with with their drinking?
• 33:29
  I think that it is a dead giveaway that they are desperate to feel good and they will take nonsensical routes to that. And let me be clear, I bought them from Whole Foods. I found one in my little junk drawer that was ancient from when I used to go out because I wanted so desperately to have the best of both worlds. I wanted to party and then have this really healthy lifestyle where my body felt vibrant.
• 33:55
  And I'm smart, but I could not conceptualize that, oh, the faster way to do that would actually be not to pour poison down my throat. And this is not to demonize alcohol. But the fact of the fact is it's ethanol mixed with sugar so you can tolerate the taste. And I am not, first of all, I'm not a dietician. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a doctor. But the research shows that when you...
• 34:17
  drink alcohol and then try to supplement your drinking that your body cannot recognize the good things that you're putting into it because it's so focused on flushing out the toxins so you can be eating your grains and taking your supplements and your body is just basically peeing them out or processing them out because it's so focused on danger we have poison in the in the in the field
• 34:38
  And so you can have this like jolly idea like, oh, I'm taking my charcoal pills or whatever, but those things really aren't working at much capacity at all, if even at all, because your body's so focused on the one task at hand, which is remove the poison.
• 34:51
  I think the best way to not get a hangover is just to not drink. Yeah, that's what she said. Colin, what's your opinion on that? Because I got to tell you, I was sitting, I was at an event with some big time influencers. And there was a doctor there. And he was handing out a red pill, which was his version of the Thrive. And me and one other person were looking at each other like, really? Everybody was drinking heavily. Everybody's doing it. And I'm laughing going, wow.
• 35:21
  I have zero desire to do this, but yet here is a big time doctor. If I said his name, you would know it. And handing these out, I'm like, you don't think that maybe we just shouldn't drink as much as you guys are drinking? But I just let it go. What's your thought on that? Well, I'm gonna answer it in a middle of the road fashion because we've already covered supplements and we've already covered, everybody knows you would feel better if you didn't drink at all. So let's just start with that. But let me talk to somebody who wants to just cut back.
• 35:48
  The doctor you're dealing with obviously doesn't understand that alcohol is a drug and that 0.055, it's a biphasic drug. 0.055 is phase one. That is the buzz people want to get. Anything over that, you are compounding the negative side effects.
• 36:06
  Think of like the buzz is like a bucket. Once you get there, you can't, it's full. You can't get any more in there. Your cruising altitude, if you will, is 0.055 blood alcohol level, not more than that. And so if you wanted to move the needle on the drinking, understanding the buzz you want is that way. And the more you drink, the worse you're going to feel. And that if you can learn how to use the drug properly, you're going to be able to
• 36:32
  You can enjoy the buzz and then land the plane safely as opposed to, because you can't get any higher. And that's what people think. I'm chasing the buzz. The more I drink, you know, there's no benefits after 0.055. After that, it's, it's a downhill, you're going to crash your plane in a tailspin and, you know, a mindful drinker, normal drinkers, right? They just kind of, okay, I feel the
• 36:56
  That's times to stop drinking, not keep drinking. And I think a lot of this is people just don't know. So you're not, you're, you're not advocating doing shots, huh? No. Yeah. Like, I don't know who made that up, but.
• 37:11
  I mean, if you think about it, most of us didn't learn how to drink, you know, like as ridiculous as that sounds like, you know, in high school for us, it was you go out at eight, you drink as much beer as you can before you have to be home. And then in college, it's pretty much the same. And what happens for a lot of people is they go through college, they go through the binge drinking phase and.
• 37:33
  you know, a good portion of them just age out of it. They, that goes away. They don't do it just by default and it goes away. And then a good portion continues on and, you know,
• 37:43
  you've really just never learned how to do what Colleen's saying and recognize that like maybe you're chasing the dragon, so to speak, all the time that, you know, this is, this is the point of like where it's good enough and where you should stay. And this is the pace you should, or, you know, you can define that of course, but I just think it's interesting to think because it's not something I thought about. I never really, really learned how to drink.
• 38:07
  Oh, I learned how to drink. I learned how to drink the wrong way for my parents, man. Sorry, go ahead, Khalid. Mike talked about the withdrawal effects being the next day. But if you're in an extended drinking session, the withdrawal effects kick in after that first buzz. So what most people don't realize is the reason they're still drinking is they're uncomfortable with the side effects of drinking too much alcohol.
• 38:31
  And so now they're in the withdrawal because it's a depressant drug. So your brain doesn't want you to get too relaxed. It spikes your cortisol. And now you're agitated. You can't sleep. You keep drinking. Most people just don't understand that that's why they're still drinking. The buzz they're chasing, they're actually now uncomfortable because they've used too much alcohol. And now they're just digging their own hole.
• 38:53
  Oh my, you just had, my mind just, because you're right. It's the alcohol hamster wheel. And oh man, did I get myself on that many a times. Ooh. Oof. All right, Amanda, what's one simple...
• 39:09
  uh, thing, or what's, what's, what's one simple change someone can make today that can significantly affect their drinking habits. Let's, let's take just quit off the table. What could, what's something we can do? I think I'm on alignment. I'm not sure, but man, I'm, I'm, well, here's, I can't believe we haven't said this yet. I'm sober curious.
• 39:30
  What's one thing I can do? I think it is to ask yourself a better question. And we kind of started out with the main question we're taught to ask because it was marketed so well by AA, which is, do you have a problem with alcohol? Is alcohol ruining your life? And for most people, the answer is no, but because that's the only question we're taught to ask, that's the first thing people Google as well. And if you could just Google in your head, a different question, which is, is alcohol contributing positively or negatively?
• 39:57
  to the life that I want to have and noodle on that for a second. I think that you'll get to an answer that will, will help you understand what the best next steps are. Again, I want to just reiterate because everybody that asks me questions about alcohol, I always send them the Annie Grace's naked mind book, but not my new one is, is this unbottled potential written by you break up with alcohol and break through the, to your best life.
• 40:25
  You mentioned that exact ask a better question and that hit home with me because all we've ever taught is that it's, it's good or bad. There's no in between. And, and, and Colleen, you've said it more time. Screw these labels. It's, is it working for you or is it not? And I don't really know where a call works. It sure in the heck didn't for me. Um,
• 40:52
  Thank God I got out of it before I hit rock bottom. But again, same question to you, Colleen. Six words. If you could remember six words, more alcohol will ruin my buzz. So if you're partaking, the less you drink, the better you're going to feel. And once you feel positive or you get that little bit of a buzz, more alcohol will ruin my buzz.
• 41:21
  And so if you can reduce your drinking by realizing there's a way to do it properly where you can enjoy it so that it's a pleasure, not a problem, then you can move the needle. And then, you know, you'll find that you don't need alcohol at all. Once you start using it properly, now you're not in that anxiety wheel anymore. You know, so you can. So more alcohol will ruin my buzz is a little mantra that I think of and, you
• 41:47
  that moment I'm tempted to go for that second glass or whatever. I'm like more alcohol will ruin my bus. Okay. It's just reprogramming your subconscious to think new thoughts on purpose. That is so good. I, you're giving me so many one-liners more alcohol will ruin my bus. Yeah. That's so good. Mike, same question to you, my friend.
• 42:10
  Yeah, I mean, so the first thing for me is basically, I firmly believe that you have to take an extended break in order to break a moderate to complex habit. That's in my book. But I also take a harm reduction approach to a lot of things. And I think that not everybody is at that point.
• 42:30
  that even if they wanna make a change, they're not at the point to make a commitment to 66 days. So I really think it's about starting where they're at, asking what their goals are, and then coming up with an experiment, just running an experiment. You don't have to commit forever. You don't have to give yourself labels. You know, maybe you're drinking every night, maybe just taking, cutting it down to the weekends is a goal that you wanna try. And it's big enough that you feel like it's manageable if something like taking 66 days off isn't manageable.
• 42:59
  So I think it's really about approaching people, like I said, where they're at and coming up with some experiments that align to their goals. Don't you have a checklist or a guidebook, something that we can send the people or is that you get it with your book? Yeah. No, it's a separate workbook that will work you through every 66 days. It's a daily guide. How can people get that? That's on Amazon as well.
• 43:22
  Okay, now each one of these, their Instagram handles and how to reach them will be in there. You can message and they will give you information
• 43:31
  Anything to help you get this, get more in line with alcohol. We're coming up against it. I got two more questions, but yes, I'm going to ask one more question and then I'm going to open the floor for you guys to close home and say a little bit about your program and what you guys do. So what is, in your experience, what is the toughest challenge your clients face when they start their journey towards reducing alcohol consumption? And we're going to start with Colleen because it's going to be a doozy.
• 43:58
  The toughest thing is to understand it's not about the alcohol and to be able to find a new vision for what they are doing outside of alcohol. So just not drinking is not an activity.
• 44:16
  And so creating a mental vision of who you want to be, what would you be doing? Because that's where people are white knuckling it, right? They're trying to not drink where that's the avoidance of pain. What's the pleasure you're pursuing? And that takes time and a lot of mental rehearsal and a lot of thought work. And I think that what people don't realize is that
• 44:40
  It's a lot of work to change your habits and just controlling for alcohol and getting it perfectly sober doesn't make you, doesn't solve the problem. That's why I teach my tagline is get happy, not sober, because happy people don't drink themselves into a stupor, you know? And so realizing that it's an invitation to reconnect with yourself is,
• 45:03
  to look at your habits and unfortunately, probably look up things that you're putting up with in your life. You're agreeing to things you don't actually agree with and you're going to have to big girl panty it up.
• 45:15
  fire. People are going to masterclass on this right now. I really wouldn't have to tell anybody to share this, right? This is just entertaining, pure entertainment. I would go anywhere and listen to you. So Amanda, same question to you, please. I think there are so many tough parts about making that change against alcohol because you're choosing to do something that goes against the
• 45:39
  And I think the thing that I would have you remember is that drinking alcohol is probably one of the most mundane, mediocre things you can do. Normal is mediocre and you deserve more than a mediocre life. And you have to believe that you have to get to that point where you believe or you will at least let someone hold the belief for you. And I think that's one of the things that I am challenged with as a coach to believe so fervently for someone in their potential that at some point they'll pick up that belief and put it in their own backpack.
• 46:08
  And in order to have a life that is extraordinary, you have to stop doing what ordinary people are doing. And there is nothing more ordinary than drinking alcohol, but you have to be brave enough to take that stand for yourself. And I think sometimes showing up for ourselves is the hardest thing we will ever have to do. And it's also going to give you a life that most people cannot have because you're going to be doing something that most people aren't willing to do.
• 46:32
  And that can feel isolating, that can feel scary. And I know that anyone listening who is interested in this conversation can do it. I know that you have it in you. Yeah, and I wanna pay special attention that not one of us have really talked much about AA.
• 46:46
  And we're not saying yay or nay. It's just saying there's other options available. And you're seeing three very different modalities. Even though you guys tend to seem to agree on a lot of things, there's still, I know you guys intimately, the three very different methods to getting it. And I'm going to steal Colleen's being happy because that's really what we're talking about. You look at my posts today.
• 47:10
  And who I am and the heart of life, it's about being happy. I should have called it happier than life because literally since I quit this, that's what I am. And everyone says, oh, you can't chase happiness. I don't need to chase it. It finds me because I don't make stupid choices. And I used to, I made a lot of them. So Mike, same question to you, my friend, and then we're going to, we're going to wrap it up.
• 47:34
  I think the biggest challenge for most people is thinking that there's an all or nothing, one solution, one size fits all to everything. And that basically means that you have to give yourself a label and admit that it's a disease and –
• 47:50
  I'm not bashing it. It works for whoever it works for. And I think that the real option is having more options that people feel like that are meeting them at their goals and what they want to do. If you're a 20 something and you just want to cut down or maybe you got a little out of control, I don't know that.
• 48:06
  forever, never, ever in that route is really going to speak to people. And so I think the biggest challenge is it keeps people from actually moving forward and getting an improved life because and I know from my own personal experience, it prolonged things from moving them in a more healthy direction. And so it's not a direct answer to your question, what's the biggest challenge? But I think as a whole, for people that are struggling, the biggest challenge is thinking that there's just one option. And I think that
• 48:36
  Right now it's coming out that it's a very complex habit, has a lot of nuances. It depends on the person, personality, environment. You know, there's just so many different things that it's a very personal issue. And I think you need to treat it that way. And so I think that just the way things are going right now is meeting those challenges with giving more options. Thank you for that. There's a shameless plug for Amanda's book again, because on page five,
• 49:06
  She basically summarizes what I think most of the people that are listening. And it literally just saying about how socially accepted it is and that drinking is fun and everybody's doing it. And I'm going to tell you and I'm going to steal from Colleen how it is a...
• 49:23
  life hack. It is empowering as can be to be in a room full of people that need alcohol and you don't. So again, on Bottled Potential, page five, boom, she hits it with a freaking hammer. So get out and read this book, especially if you don't think you have a challenge with alcohol. That's why I recommend read this book. And that's the people we're looking for. Having said that, Mike, I'm going to start with you. What
• 49:53
  What is your claim to think? What makes you different than the other two panelists on here? Why would I come and work with you? And how do I come work with you? This is your couple minute infomercial again.
• 50:07
  Well, I really address like a segment of the population that is having trouble with alcohol, doesn't identify with 12-step or AA solutions, and wants to take a habits-based approach and change it. And their goal could either be to cut back to maybe where they used to be or where they'd like to see themselves, or potentially they want to take a break and never go back.
• 50:35
  a structured approach to habits, understand what's going on in your mind, understand what's going on in your body, give you ways to be able to swap the previous behaviors with ones that also are attached to rewards on the end of them so that you're still feeling good along the way. And then also having things that support you when you're at your low, when you have cravings and things that, you know, mindful practices to get through the other side. And the goal is to get
• 51:02
  to 66 days to where you're feeling better. There's a study that shows that basically a complex habit takes a minimum mean of 66 days. I think anywhere between 66 and 90 days. However, I lowered it just to get people to the 66 days because it is proven scientifically still. But really at that point, then you can be more mindful and decide, you know what, I'm feeling so great. I never want
• 51:32
  introduce it. But now you're approaching your drinking in a more mindful manner. You have ways to cope and relieve any kind of cravings if you're getting off track or you have a place you can go. If you went back and it's not working out, you can go right back to where you were and decide, hey, it's just not for me anymore. Yeah, I always tell everybody when I'm pushing your 66 day abstinence program, I always say do it on Sober October.
• 51:59
  do it the second month. You can't go another month or do a dry January. Just do it. Or give it up for Lent.
• 52:06
  Dumbtail it on there. It'll be the best gift I ever gave you. So if you can get over the 30 days, I found that the second 30 just really rolls. It's getting through that first 30. Everybody white knuckles it when they're doing sober October. And then they, you know, yo-yo diet basically right back into the drinking. But if you can push through just a few more days and commit to the 60, it just flies by in comparison.
• 52:30
  That's a great story too, because you, you write it in your book, no willpower required. You talk about how, if you just take 30 days off, how it tends to 31 day you over drink because you've rewarded yourself. That was a very, it's in all the books, but it's just your, you explain it very detailed and very simple. Like, oh, well, I deserve it. Then you go over the deep end and drink way too much and it counteracts the 30 days that you took off. It's just not enough time.
• 52:59
  Amanda, why, who do you want? What's your avatar and what, why do I want to work with you?
• 53:04
  Yeah, well, I think that out of the three of us, I probably take the softest touch to the most difficult outcome, which is I promote a complete breakup from alcohol. I don't teach moderation. And that's not because I think alcohol is bad, wrong, or evil. But the type of person who I work with wants to live a big life and knows that spending time figuring out alcohol hasn't worked in the past. It's taken up too much brainpower. And they want to figure out how to make it just completely different.
• 53:30
  or just completely irrelevant in their life and have solutions that actually work and actually support living your best life. So that, as you said, the title, the subtitle of my book is Break Up With Alcohol and Breakthrough To Your Best Life. And I work a lot also in
• 53:47
  in spiritual work. So there is a little bit of the metaphysical space in our metaphysical practices and some of the things. And I don't mean like metaphysical, like witchy, like we're not like getting out cold runs or anything. You could, but that's not how I work. But I really teach a very heart-centered approach. And so I think what you'll get from me is a very gentle and warm touch, but going for the most difficult outcome of them all, which is complete breakup from alcohol. But I find that to be very empowering. And the people who I work with are really striving for that as well.
• 54:16
  Again, I'm going to recommend you read her book first, and then you'll see how fabulous she is. Unbottled potential. If you read it, she sounds just like the way she's speaking right now, and it is soft and gentle approach. And I tend to fall in your camp, but I am one of those adults that understand that there's more than one way to sack the quarterback. There's more than one way to win. And I just love me some Colleen because –
• 54:43
  I just feel like she just gives it to you like it is. And in any way, shape or form of making this world a better place and getting us aligned and getting us on the same page is all about harder than life. So, Colleen, same final question to you. And then I'm going to ask some final thoughts about it.
• 54:59
  I work with mostly high achieving professional women. I help them reduce their alcohol consumption by 80% within a month. So they don't have to quit. Even if they drink every day, my program is based on seven core principles of emotional sobriety, which basically means you're no longer intoxicated by your own bullshit. And I teach women over the course of a year. I have an extended program that,
• 55:22
  that how to manage their mind so they're no longer managed by their subconscious emotions and their anxiety and all of that and of course that takes time so that's what I do I teach women you're not the problem you have a skill deficit you don't know how to regulate your nervous system
• 55:39
  You've got a fixed versus a growth mindset. You know, there's a radical honesty component. I do different from Mike. I do identity-based instead of habit-based change. So who do you need to be to do what you need to do? Which both are important, right? We work on habits too, but that's what I do.
• 55:56
  So again, three different modalities and there's probably many, many more. And I really appreciate you all coming on. I always end all my podcasts with, is there something I didn't ask you that I should have or that you feel compelled to share? So I'm going to go each one and just, let's just call it the final thoughts. We're coming up against that. Please, everybody rate, share.
• 56:16
  Review this. This is for us to help you. There's not a single person in here judging. And I just got to tell you, just watch my life and see how good I say people when they say, hey, I'm 30 days in, I'm a year.
• 56:30
  Keep going. And then I ask him one question. How good can you handle life? Because it keeps getting better. Now, I also tell people they have to, you have to work on your mindfulness. You have to be doing work on your mind and your body. Because just quitting out...
• 56:47
  One misnomer, I will tell you, I thought quitting alcohol was the answer to all my problems. Oh, no, that was the first step. It is the symptom, not the cure, to the disease. And the disease is these freaking limiting beliefs in our thoughts. So please understand that that's the first hard step. Then there's going to be another major one where you got to look in your head and address your, as Colleen would say, your shit.
• 57:13
  So final thoughts, and I'm going to start with you, Amanda. Final thoughts. I think that the thing that I most need to tell people is always that you are so much more capable than you give yourself credit for and that your dreams are small in comparison to what you're actually capable of. And if you just take a second to get out of your own way and do something that's simple but not easy, like removing alcohol from the picture, your life will expand in ways that are entirely unfathomable to you.
• 57:43
  Thank you so much for that. And thank you for coming on. Mike, you're next. I think for me, if you're questioning your current habits with alcohol and you want to change them, you don't have to put a label on yourself. You don't have to say that you're powerless. You are powerful to make changes just like Amanda said there. And I think also...
• 58:09
  really reframe it in a positive way. What are the things that you could gain if you just, you know, you map out your dream scenario. Are you waking up early? Are you running a marathon? Are you, you know, spending more time with your kids?
• 58:25
  Really start thinking about where you'd like to go and not just like what you'd like to remove. And ladies and gentlemen, he's not just handsome. He's brilliant. Thank you for coming on. I just adore you. And I just think you're doing great work. And of course, I have to end it with my girl, Colleen, because she's going to drop a bomb right here. Well, I think what both of them say, I could encapsulate everything.
• 58:48
  And that is to think from a growth mindset. Every person listening to this show is smart and is killing it somewhere in their life. And when they find a problem, they see a challenge and they're like, game on, I got this. The problem with alcohol is we have a fixed mindset. We think it is the way it is.
• 59:05
  We are who we are and nothing can change. So if you can orient yourself within the process of change and stop trying to wake up on Monday and get it all fucking right and just orient yourself to the process. Sustainable change happens slowly. You might go completely sober, but you still got to work out all the crazies. That's not going to happen overnight.
• 59:26
  And so if you can have a growth mindset in some areas of your life and then try to transfer those skills, what am I telling myself about myself in this situation? And why am I telling myself something different here? I think that that allows you to just relax and say, like, my favorite words are, I'm capable of learning. I'm capable of learning. And if you can believe you're capable of learning, then you can solve your alcohol problem. Sober, California sober, mindful drinking, like whatever.
• 59:56
  try them all. It's like a buffet. Feel free to help yourself to everything. I'm going to end it with get happy, not sober. And I want to say I'm Kelly Siegel and I approve this message. I love you all. You're doing great work. Keep going. And if there's anything I can do to support any one of you guys, you got to just call because I am a testament that everything that you guys are doing works. And I have been in every one of those situations that you just talked about. And it's true.
• 1:00:24
  Thank you guys. Thanks for coming on. Please rate and share this podcast. I'm active on all social platforms and love to hear from my Seagull supporters. Each and every episode is sponsored by my company, National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with. Delivering peace of mind with technology every day, even simplifying cybersecurity. Visit trustntm.com for more info. Until next week, be harder than life.