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Renewing Christian Institutions: John Hawthorne on Fearless Leadership in a Changing Culture · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
0:50
John Hawthorne. John is a
0:52
sociologist who spent nearly four decades
0:55
in Christian higher education. He
0:58
served as faculty member and academic
1:00
administrator over the course of his career,
1:03
spending time in five different Christian
1:05
universities. He writes a substack that
1:08
often deals with issues in Christian higher education
1:12
and has been regularly interviewed for
1:14
Christianity Today, Religion News Service,
1:17
Sojourners, Inside Higher Ed, and
1:20
the Associated Press. His publications
1:23
include A First Step into a Much Larger
1:26
World, the Christian University, and Beyond.
1:30
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
1:33
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
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leave a review and share Future Christian with a
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email@laurensonatemediapro.com
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with comments, questions, or ideas for future
1:52
episodes. We appreciate your voice
1:55
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
1:58
church.
2:06
>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
2:09
I am actually joined live and in person
2:12
with John Hawthorne and
2:15
dogs recording from my house. So if there's some dog
2:18
noise in the background, please forgive us.
2:22
John, anything, um, else you want to say about yourself?
2:26
>> Speaker D: Um, so the reason I live here,
2:29
uh, is that our uh,
2:32
daughter and family, uh, our daughter
2:35
came to grad school at du,
2:38
uh, uh,
2:41
a couple of decades ago and
2:45
uh, met her husband and then they
2:47
have two girls and settled in a
2:50
neighborhood. And so when we.
2:53
I retired in May of 2020, uh,
2:56
in the throes of COVID I went home on
2:59
March 13 and went back one day
3:02
to pack my office.
3:03
>> Loren: Wow.
3:04
>> Speaker D: And um, so then a
3:07
year later when things looked like they had calmed down a little bit,
3:10
we sold the house in Michigan and we're able to buy a house
3:13
here and have the good fortune of living,
3:15
uh, 4/10 of a mile from my daughter's
3:18
house. Walkable distance for,
3:21
you know, granddaughter can ride the bike over and,
3:24
and uh, and that's, that's been great.
3:27
Uh, and uh, I'm now
3:30
the board president of
3:33
my oldest grandchild's Charter
3:36
school in North Glen. So.
3:40
So that keeps me
3:43
kind of busy, but not terribly so.
3:45
>> Loren: Yeah.
3:46
>> Speaker D: Um, so yeah, that's. I grew up in Indiana
3:48
and as we'll. We may get to,
3:51
uh, moved around a lot.
3:53
Um, you given
3:56
a. My decision to be in Christian universities
3:59
and more importantly my decision to go into
4:02
administration, which meant more mobility than
4:06
kind of taking a teaching position and staying there for 35 or
4:09
40 years.
4:09
>> Loren: Right, right.
4:10
Anything you want to say about your faith journey? What that looked like in the past,
4:13
what that looks like today?
4:14
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I don't want to get too. You
4:17
too deep. Um, grew up in a
4:21
kind of faith adjacent home,
4:24
which meant my grandmother's kind
4:26
of avid Presbyterianism.
4:29
Um, but, um, mostly not
4:32
so much. But through influence of friends
4:35
and other things, I became,
4:38
uh, a Christian in high
4:41
school.
4:42
Um, I actually flunked out
4:45
of college after my first year,
4:48
uh, and went home at
4:50
their request. Uh, and
4:53
uh, back in Indianapolis. Wound up getting involved
4:57
at a church, a Nazarene church
5:00
that was
5:03
pretty fundamentalist even for Nazarene
5:06
churches. Uh, and
5:09
always felt that was good for me at the
5:12
time, given lack of discipline,
5:15
all the things that contributed to looking at a
5:18
school.
5:19
Um, and over the
5:21
years the notion of
5:24
grace became more and more prominent.
5:28
Uh, which is one of the reasons that I am
5:31
a Methodist today. Uh, is
5:33
that that just notion of the free gift of
5:36
grace kind of has
5:39
kind of taken the place of that earlier.
5:43
Somewhat more. Never really good
5:45
fundamentalist, but somewhat more fundamentalist leaning.
5:48
Um, is kind of big. The big transition, I think of
5:51
my faith journey. We bounced back
5:54
and forth between Nazarene churches and Methodist
5:57
churches. Uh, and then,
6:00
uh, upon moving,
6:03
uh, from California
6:06
to Michigan, that was kind of. We've been
6:09
Methodist ever since and kind of owned.
6:12
Owned that. But I've always been in more. In more
6:14
or less Wesleyan kind
6:17
of big family spaces.
6:19
>> Loren: Yeah. Because Nazarenes have a Wesleyan.
6:20
>> Speaker D: Nazarenes have. I was at a Church of God school, Church of God
6:23
Anderson School, uh, which also is there. I did
6:26
spend, uh. I did spend a few
6:29
years. Uh, the second institution I was at
6:32
is Sterling College in Kansas, which is a
6:35
Presbyterian school, but I went
6:38
to the Methodist Church.
6:40
Um, so. Yeah.
6:42
>> Loren: Cool.
6:43
Any spiritual practices that you really like
6:46
to keep maintaining?
6:49
>> Speaker D: Honestly, I'm not real good at that. Um.
6:51
Um, I keep trying to kind of get
6:54
into regular rhythms.
6:56
>> Loren: Ah, Practice practicing.
6:58
>> Speaker D: Exactly. And I'm never. They never. They take
7:01
for a bit and then they don't. Yeah. Community M
7:04
is important. Being with other people,
7:06
uh, kind of reflecting Even reflecting on what
7:09
I'm reading, even if it's not,
7:13
uh, particularly a religious topic, is, you know,
7:16
kind of feeds that broader sense of understanding
7:19
of the world.
7:19
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.
7:21
Well, I'm fortunate to be talking again
7:23
live and in person with John this
7:26
morning as we're recording. And um, we're talking about
7:29
a little bit around his book. John's the author of
7:32
the Fearless Christian University. No subtitle, right?
7:35
No subtitle. He brought a copy. My copy is
7:38
upstairs. Uh, but we're going to talk kind of around this
7:41
topic and then more broadly around
7:44
institutions, particularly Christian institutions in the church.
7:46
But do you want to start off kind of just what led you to write the book? What
7:49
inspired it?
7:51
>> Speaker D: So as I just mentioned,
7:53
uh, I got into
7:56
Christian higher education because
7:59
my wife was a graduate of Olivet Nazarene,
8:03
um, which was where my first job
8:06
was. Uh, and so through her
8:09
networks I was known when I was in grad school
8:12
and they called up out of the blue and offered me a job.
8:15
Um, and so I went and taught
8:18
there. But I learned by the
8:21
end of. I was there nine years and by the
8:24
latter part of that period I was kind of itching
8:28
for something else more to do
8:31
and felt led.
8:34
I think I could say that I don't know if call is too strong, but
8:37
definitely led to
8:40
exercise some administrative um, gifts I thought
8:43
I was sensing. Uh, and
8:46
it wasn't going to happen there. So
8:49
if I was going to pursue that, it required moving.
8:52
I mean they weren't like, opposed to me. It was
8:55
like the person who was my department chair was
8:58
department chair another decade. And it was
9:00
just like the amount of time necessary
9:03
to wait to make that move was going to be
9:06
endless. Ah. And
9:09
um, so I moved and
9:12
uh, taught sociology
9:14
at Sterling College in Kansas.
9:17
Then in
9:21
two um, years into that the college
9:23
had uh, acquired a non
9:26
traditional program. Uh, one of those
9:30
classes for working adults that meet at night, one night
9:33
a week. And uh, that actually
9:36
operated in Missouri.
9:38
Uh, and I was the chair of the faculty
9:41
committee that gave oversight to that.
9:44
Well, the president fired the VP
9:48
and I became acting VP
9:50
while they did a search. And then after they
9:53
did a search I became permanent vp.
9:56
And I was VP for that from um,
9:59
the middle of, well from late
10:02
92 through 95.
10:05
And
10:06
um, and
10:09
it had some challenges to it, um,
10:11
but I was enjoying what I was doing. I was,
10:14
I thought accomplishing the right kinds of things. But I
10:17
didn't want to spend my career in non
10:20
traditional education. And I figured
10:23
if I stayed too long that was
10:25
going to be a problem.
10:27
>> Loren: Mhm.
10:27
>> Speaker D: Uh, and as it turned out, the President
10:30
nominated me for an opening,
10:33
uh, at Warner Pacific College in Portland,
10:36
Oregon, which is a Church of God, uh,
10:39
Indiana Church of God, Anderson, Indiana
10:41
Affiliated College. And
10:44
I took the role of the title,
10:47
eventually became Vice President of Practical affairs.
10:50
And I did that for a decade, uh,
10:53
and then, uh, spent a year
10:56
in transition as Assistant to the President and
10:59
then moved to Point Loma Nazarene in San
11:02
Diego where I was provost for four years.
11:05
Uh, and that ended badly. And
11:08
then, uh, I wound up
11:10
eventually in Michigan, back in the classroom
11:13
teaching sociology at Spring Arbor University Free
11:16
Methodist School.
11:17
>> Loren: Mhm.
11:19
>> Speaker D: So I knew I was
11:21
retiring in May of 20,
11:24
made that decision early on,
11:26
um, the year before.
11:30
And
11:30
um,
11:34
two months before I retired, I sat down and I
11:37
wrote myself a memo, 30 page, double
11:40
spaced on, well, here's how my career
11:43
went. And as I looked over
11:46
that memo I said, oh, maybe there's something here.
11:49
Maybe there would be a series of essays
11:52
that I could write about Christian higher education.
11:55
And I actually met with
11:59
uh, one representative who happened to be here for
12:02
in, happened to be here in Denver for the
12:05
uh, Evangelical Theological Society.
12:08
And we had coffee and I said, here's what I've got.
12:11
And he said, oh, said my wife who teaches
12:13
at a Christian college, she'd like this, but I don't know
12:16
how much of a bigger market there is than her.
12:20
And I said, okay, fair enough. And
12:23
so I kind of set that aside.
12:26
But the first of those
12:29
essays became
12:31
the first chapter in Fearless Christian University.
12:35
And what I wound
12:38
up doing was
12:40
writing what I came to see
12:43
is the affirmative case for a different approach
12:46
to Christian higher education rather than just,
12:49
oh, here were some important lessons from my past.
12:52
Those lessons you could still find
12:55
through the pages of the book.
12:57
Um, but it shifted my focus
13:00
and I was able to speak to kind of a broader issue
13:03
which as you say, I hope speaks to
13:06
broader issues within
13:09
the evangelical church and to extent the
13:12
mainline church and maybe to
13:15
parachurch organization, all of it.
13:18
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
13:18
So let's get into that because I think again your title is
13:21
the Fearless Christian University. But I think this is
13:24
more, uh, applicable. It seems like to me we're
13:27
really in an era perhaps
13:30
from my perspective that fear, I think runs
13:33
everything. And I was thinking about this a. I
13:36
can't remember if it's in your book or if it's in another book I read
13:39
where they, they talk about how like the kind of
13:42
worldview thing in
13:44
evangelical universities has been like the kind of the
13:47
boogeyman driver of like, oh, parents, you
13:50
gotta invest in your kids worldview.
13:53
And I feel like similarly in like mainline or
13:55
progressive spaces now it's like, oh, Christian
13:58
nationalism, like that's the boogeyman. And not that these
14:01
aren't like problematic things, especially
14:03
today Christian nationalism, but it seems like,
14:06
like everything is kind of reactionary
14:09
Fe. And you really try to like, hey,
14:12
I guess. Is that a fair.
14:14
>> Speaker D: Uh, I think broadly. Let
14:16
me.
14:17
>> Loren: Yeah.
14:17
>> Speaker D: Um, so here's how
14:20
the first chapter begins.
14:21
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
14:23
>> Speaker D: Christian universities, much like the evangelical
14:25
subculture that spawned them, are characterized by
14:28
fear, fear of societal decline,
14:31
fear of secular authorities, fear of
14:33
apostasy, fear of not being real schools.
14:37
In short, they fear losing their way.
14:39
>> Loren: Yes.
14:41
>> Speaker D: Um, and I think
14:45
that notion about if we
14:48
don't hold the line on every little
14:51
thing, on the Christian worldview, on the
14:53
social ethic, on all these things,
14:56
that everything will fall apart.
14:59
I have to work to figure Christian nationalism.
15:02
See, I think the, the Christian nationalism thing
15:06
is also related to fear
15:10
of social change. So it's similar in that
15:13
way some of
15:16
what's fostering that.
15:17
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
15:18
So I think one thing that was interesting in your book
15:21
and this title or phraseology
15:24
doesn't come from you, particularly if
15:26
Nandra, Nandra Andy Crouch. But he
15:30
used a term from him, zombie institutions.
15:33
So talk like what that is and then
15:36
how. How do we go about revitalizing these
15:39
institutions?
15:40
>> Speaker D: I meant to look up. I meant to look up the scripture reference
15:43
to get it right. But you know, the paraphrase
15:46
is the, uh. The form of religion without the essence
15:49
therein.
15:49
>> Loren: Sure, sure.
15:51
>> Speaker D: And I think that's some of what Crouch was
15:54
talking about. It is that
15:58
institutions settle into patterns of being
16:00
and behaving that have
16:03
suited them in the past. And they have this
16:06
perhaps bias toward inertia.
16:10
Um, and if the
16:12
culture around them has changed or the
16:15
internal dynamics have changed, they seem
16:18
to be unaware of that because
16:21
things run on autopilot. They just kind of know how to keep doing the
16:24
thing they've always done. And every year looks like
16:27
every other year. Um,
16:30
and so it's in that sense
16:33
that I kind of talk
16:36
about in my case, particularly Christian
16:38
universities, uh, who
16:41
are simply kind of
16:44
talking about the same issues, saying the same things
16:47
in their admissions brochures, doing everything
16:50
they've ever done. Ah. And
16:52
that, uh, that is,
16:55
limits their ability to
16:58
respond to what I argue is
17:01
a very,
17:03
um,
17:06
to a very much changed
17:09
cultural dynamic, uh, among
17:12
incoming college students and the broader
17:15
culture. And so
17:18
maintaining that past practice,
17:21
particularly,
17:23
um, either in A
17:26
reactionary mode or at least
17:29
in the zombie sense, in the
17:32
non reflective mode.
17:34
Um,
17:37
causes all kinds of problems.
17:39
>> Loren: So I think what's interesting for me, and again
17:42
you were writing primarily from the university context.
17:45
I'm thinking about this for a church context,
17:47
especially from my situation within the mainline world.
17:50
But when I read the zombie institution thing and you
17:53
talk about this bias toward inertia, like I feel like
17:56
again I haven't been part of mainline Christianity that
17:59
long. I'm um, really in many ways an outside
18:02
observer, so to speak, because of that. But it
18:05
seems like to me that mainline
18:07
Protestantism has been kind of just managing
18:10
decline for.
18:13
I mean really when you look at data from like Orion Burge or
18:15
something, it's like managing decline for 20, 30,
18:18
40 years.
18:20
>> Speaker D: Um, um, actually 80.
18:23
>> Loren: But yeah, sure.
18:24
>> Speaker D: I mean, no, the peak was 1970.
18:26
>> Loren: Right.
18:26
>> Speaker D: Um, and, and
18:31
by. Let me go on a detour.
18:34
>> Loren: Yeah.
18:34
>> Speaker D: The sociology of mainline churches.
18:37
Um, so
18:40
back in, you know, in,
18:43
in the post, in post war America.
18:46
>> Loren: Mhm.
18:47
>> Speaker D: There is this sort of religious boom, part of which
18:49
is a civil religious boom. Church uh,
18:53
is a good thing.
18:54
>> Loren: Right.
18:54
>> Speaker D: You know, this is where you get Eisenhower saying
18:57
uh, that our country makes no sense unless
19:00
it's based on a deeply felt faith and he doesn't care
19:03
what that faith is.
19:05
Um, and
19:08
so church became part of social
19:11
acceptance, of affiliation, of
19:14
recognition that you're a good member of the community.
19:18
And that um, I
19:21
think fostered the big growth in
19:24
the main lines.
19:27
Which of course means the main
19:30
lines are demographic. Were not true
19:33
anymore. Were demographically about a
19:36
decade older than the evangelical
19:38
churches which explode in the late
19:41
70s through the 80s.
19:43
Um, there,
19:46
there is evidence that the evangelicals are now hitting
19:49
demographic plateaus and having their own issues.
19:54
There was, there was some sociological research
19:57
that argued that mainline
20:00
churches got. Mainline
20:03
pastors got very much involved in social
20:07
action. Uh issues which
20:09
created a gap with the population.
20:13
Um, there's some truth to
20:15
that. I think what is more likely
20:19
is that you have a
20:21
traditional versus
20:23
um, an experimental, innovative.
20:26
You know. So while the
20:29
mainline church is still in the big old building
20:32
downtown with the choir and the robes,
20:36
the worship band is going on at the church and they've got
20:39
the youth group and I mean there, there is a
20:41
cannibalization. I happens
20:44
uh, as
20:46
there's defection from the main line to the evangelicals.
20:51
>> Loren: Now.
20:51
>> Speaker D: Um, the growth is non, non denoms.
20:54
>> Loren: Right.
20:55
>> Speaker D: Um, but
20:56
um, but that's how I kind of think
20:59
about what that looks like.
21:02
One of the dynamics of that
21:05
kind of historical
21:09
Pattern Is that
21:11
part of the evangelical
21:14
strength? And this relates to the themes of the book. Part
21:17
of the evangelical identity is
21:20
we're true believers. Those guys don't believe
21:23
anything.
21:23
>> Loren: Right.
21:25
>> Speaker D: Um, and
21:29
there may have been a period of time where
21:32
mainline churches soft sold
21:35
theology,
21:38
but I think that's generally a myth.
21:41
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:41
>> Speaker D: Um, and so what you find today
21:44
in mainline churches, um,
21:48
what you find today in mainline churches is
21:51
this kind of broader social awareness blended with
21:54
a commitment to community both local and
21:56
internal and
21:59
a kind of Jesus centered
22:02
theology. Um, I
22:05
was just, uh, my wife and I went to
22:07
uh, we went to St.
22:10
Simon's Island, Georgia at the end of January
22:13
for this event that Diana Butler Bass
22:16
puts on. Um, and
22:19
uh, it was great. It was just,
22:22
it was very white,
22:25
um, very middle class.
22:27
>> Loren: Mhm.
22:28
>> Speaker D: But it was 700
22:32
kind of well meaning, faith
22:35
filled mainline folks.
22:37
>> Loren: Mhm.
22:38
>> Speaker D: Um, and it was really encouraging. I mean it's just
22:41
to counter that kind of all
22:44
the main lines don't stand for anything is, you know,
22:47
is really important.
22:49
>> Loren: Well, let's talk about that because one of the things you
22:52
note in the book that I feel like I've seen
22:56
broadly speaking within American Christianity is this kind of
22:59
like melding of
23:02
Christianity into
23:05
the progressive wing and the conservative
23:08
wing and in the conservative wing
23:11
because I think, correct me if this is wrong, but I feel like even
23:14
within a tradition like the Church of the
23:17
Nazarene that had distinct
23:20
rituals and practices, there's kind of this, this
23:22
melding into like just evangelicalism writ
23:25
large. Uh, and you can correct me if I'm wrong
23:28
certainly within, I think within mainland
23:31
proselytism. I feel like there's, it's
23:34
not quite as distinct but there is kind of this
23:37
again this kind of uh, amalgamation um,
23:40
into just like one sort of like we're just liberal
23:43
Christianity.
23:47
>> Speaker D: Okay. A couple of things. Yeah, yeah.
23:52
M. There is a sense in which,
23:57
you know, one of the things that happens in
23:59
the evangelical world first
24:02
is that
24:05
denominational publishing houses die.
24:07
>> Loren: Mhm.
24:09
>> Speaker D: And they are replaced by whatever Rick Warren
24:12
did lately or whatever. Whoever the, the
24:15
hot person is now.
24:16
>> Loren: Now it's ah, you know, I feel like what Cokesbury
24:19
is still operating but there are uh,
24:22
like whatever. Adam Hamilton for instance.
24:24
>> Speaker D: Exactly what to put out. But they'll put
24:27
that out. But that's different than when
24:30
the Church of God press dies
24:33
and then the Sunday school. I was at the
24:35
Nazarene Church in Portland
24:38
and one year we were reading.
24:41
Uh, they decided, they kind of bought
24:44
the subscription for everybody. So we were going to read
24:47
the 40 days of purpose.
24:48
>> Loren: Mhm.
24:49
>> Speaker D: For Rick Warren. And you read the first page and
24:52
say,
24:55
this book is theologically not what we
24:57
believe, but it's a
25:00
big name and it's a popular book. That means everybody knows about it, everybody's
25:03
talking about it, everybody's reading all the stuff about it.
25:07
And that replaces that
25:10
kind of dynamic.
25:11
>> Loren: Right.
25:12
>> Speaker D: Um. And so what's distinctive
25:15
about a denomination kind of shrinks.
25:17
>> Loren: Yeah.
25:18
>> Speaker D: Now your
25:20
reference to, you know, how do they,
25:23
you know, what do you do with kind of all of
25:26
the kind of behavioral limitations that often went
25:29
along with conservative utilism.
25:32
Those soften. I mean, you know, it used to
25:35
be there were no car you to play cards, you go bowling,
25:38
you go to circus. And Yeah.
25:39
>> Loren: I was just telling kids, like when we grew up.
25:41
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
25:41
>> Loren: Karina wife and I, like, we couldn't go to movies
25:44
in college.
25:45
>> Speaker D: And you know, now, you know, it's like wine with
25:48
dinner. Sure. Who cares? I mean, it's,
25:50
um. Except
25:55
that there has been a move in the last
25:58
five years for conservative
26:00
animations to double down on
26:04
LGBTQ issues.
26:05
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:07
>> Speaker D: Because what they've done is they said, oh,
26:09
these positions that we held, these social
26:12
positions, they're doctrinal.
26:14
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:16
>> Speaker D: And all of a sudden they have just
26:20
shut down conversation around
26:23
the topic. They don't do that around alcohol,
26:25
they don't do that around movies. They, you know,
26:28
um, which is tell it. But. So
26:31
they're. That's. That's part of the
26:34
generic evangelicalism. But then
26:37
certain culture war issues rise to the, to the
26:40
fore. M.
26:41
Um,
26:44
I could be, I could be wrong here.
26:48
I don't think the mainline church
26:52
has had the same amalgamation.
26:55
Methodists know that they come from Wesley and they like to talk
26:58
about Wesley. Presbyterians,
27:01
like, talk about Calvin and Reform
27:04
thought. Lutherans, um,
27:07
are very much Lutherans. You know, I mean,
27:10
so UCC has its own history,
27:14
which, which is interesting
27:17
to, to dig into. Um, but.
27:20
But there are stronger kind of
27:23
historical ties. Maybe that's what in the
27:26
mainline, um.
27:27
>> Loren: That keeps it, I think, within this is what drives
27:30
me crazy about evangelicalism. Like if I feel like, if I go
27:33
to like a mainline church, like, I know why they have a reason for why
27:36
they do something.
27:37
>> Speaker D: Yes.
27:37
>> Loren: Whereas evangelicals sort of have to like reinvent
27:40
the wheel all the time. Because like, I remember going to
27:43
like a progressive evangelical church and they're like, they
27:46
had communion, but it was just at a
27:49
table that you self serve and I was like,
27:51
you're throwing insane. Like, no, that's
27:55
not. This is not right. Going back to your point about being
27:58
fearless, reactionary, it feels like
28:01
if I'm understanding what you've read, what you wrote in the
28:04
book, this, this
28:07
culture war type of
28:10
drivenness, influence, like
28:13
reaction. Certainly maybe I'm wrong,
28:15
but certainly I feel like similar things happen
28:18
in mainline process, especially right now in the political season
28:21
we're in right now, which goodness knows is
28:24
there's some fairness to, but
28:28
thinking even bigger picture. Uh, it feels like, and I've been talking
28:31
about this with one of my good friends, Dennis Sanders, like, it feels like when,
28:34
when all that the, the opposite is known for is
28:37
just resisting, there's never any kind
28:40
of, um, hopeful
28:43
future. And eventually people kind of
28:45
wear out of like resisting
28:48
and they want like, what's our hopeful future? Like, what are we
28:51
offering people? And I'm wondering, like, have you seen
28:54
the, a similar dynamic or seems like you've seen a similar
28:57
dynamic within Christian evangelical universities.
29:00
What do you recommend instead?
29:02
>> Speaker D: Okay, um, this is the
29:05
version of the question that I get.
29:08
People say, okay, could you name
29:11
a fearless university? Um, and my
29:14
answer is I've got some nominees. I
29:17
don't know. How will they match my image?
29:21
Um, and I won't name them right now.
29:25
Uh, but, um, yeah, a
29:27
quick side note.
29:29
Uh, I had decided while I was
29:32
waiting to hear from Erdmans. I knew they liked the
29:35
book, but I didn't know where we were in the process that
29:38
what I would do is I would add a chapter that would be a field
29:41
trip and I would go and visit like three or four of these
29:44
institutions I thought were nominees. Well,
29:47
when I got the contract on November 1st
29:49
of 23, I had a
29:52
2-1-24 submission
29:55
deadline and the field
29:58
trip went away. And so the ninth
30:01
chapter is my imaginary field trip.
30:03
Um, but the,
30:06
um.
30:08
So the,
30:13
the central thrust of the book
30:16
is that there are, and I think I can work this background
30:19
at churches. Central thrust of the church is that
30:22
there are two critical
30:24
dynamics at play and they overlap.
30:28
>> Loren: Mhm.
30:28
>> Speaker D: In Christian universities,
30:31
one is that you've got a set of
30:34
leaders, administrators,
30:37
trustees, major donors
30:40
who are insistent on
30:43
wanting to maintain their separation
30:46
from the world. The left, the
30:49
liberals. That's where all that
30:52
comes in. And so they wind
30:54
up trying to hold continuity with
30:57
the past that isn't
31:02
realistic in terms of what's
31:05
going on in its surrounding milieu.
31:08
Okay.
31:09
Uh, the second
31:12
dynamic is that
31:14
this generation of students,
31:18
um, is
31:23
very different than what those
31:25
administrators and donors and trustees
31:28
and denominations see
31:31
and think. Um, I have this
31:33
whole litany. I won't go through the whole thing. But
31:37
a student beginning college,
31:40
beginning at a Christian college in the fall of 25
31:43
was born in 2007.
31:47
She doesn't know anything about 9, 11.
31:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:50
>> Speaker D: She was um, barely alive for
31:53
the recession. Barely alive. Doesn't know much of
31:56
anything about the Obama administration.
31:59
Um, she's like in
32:02
elementary school when um,
32:05
Trayvon Martin dies, when Michael Brown dies,
32:08
when, I mean you go through that whole list. She's 11
32:11
when MeToo hits M. The social
32:14
hits. Hits the. At church too, following
32:16
it.
32:19
And um, um, she
32:22
has dealt with school shootings
32:25
or the fear of school shootings, with uh, concerns about
32:28
climate change, with political
32:31
polarization. All of that
32:34
has happened in her short lifetime.
32:37
>> Loren: Right.
32:39
>> Speaker D: And the cell phone in her pocket.
32:41
>> Loren: Right.
32:42
>> Speaker D: Has been the dynamic through which she engages all these
32:45
topics. And it has been present her entire
32:48
life.
32:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
32:50
>> Speaker D: So that's the dynamic
32:53
of the students that are coming in. Even if they're
32:56
like evangelical students. These are
32:59
the sentiments they're bringing with them.
33:01
>> Loren: So like the norms of like when we think about the
33:05
uh, majority. What was the Falwell.
33:08
>> Speaker D: Um, Moral Majority.
33:09
>> Loren: Moral majority. You mentioned 9 11. Like so
33:12
many of these kind of culture war issues.
33:14
Teletubbies, if you remember that whole thing, like
33:17
clueless to her.
33:20
>> Speaker D: And the issues that are of importance to
33:23
her. Diversity,
33:27
lgbtq at least respect.
33:30
Mhm. Climate, um,
33:33
change,
33:34
uh, broad sense of community.
33:37
>> Loren: Right.
33:38
>> Speaker D: Legitimate discipleship.
33:40
>> Loren: Right.
33:40
>> Speaker D: Um, are exactly the issues,
33:43
with the exception of the last one that the university
33:47
leadership prides itself on in not
33:51
focusing on it.
33:52
>> Loren: Right, right.
33:53
>> Speaker D: Um, so that's the
33:56
central crisis of the book.
34:00
And so the solution to that,
34:02
which is also going to speak, I think, to what
34:05
you want to talk about in terms of churches. The
34:08
solution to that is to center
34:11
the students questions.
34:12
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:14
>> Speaker D: As the primary piece of the mission of
34:17
the university, that
34:21
there is a question. The alternatives
34:24
are sort of protecting the brand
34:27
versus addressing the needs and concerns and
34:30
questions of today's students.
34:34
Um, I have a friend,
34:38
I, uh, won't name the institution, but I have a friend who
34:40
is recently at
34:42
uh, a kind of recruiting
34:45
event for interested students.
34:48
>> Loren: Mhm.
34:48
>> Speaker D: And he told me that the admissions department,
34:53
because our students had parents present
34:56
and the admissions department tells
34:59
the parents that the university has
35:02
not changed since when they went to school it was
35:05
the same institution. And he and I, because
35:08
he has known about the book
35:11
since early days.
35:12
Um, this
35:15
is just absolutely the wrong. This is like the
35:18
absolute inverse of what I'm arguing in the book
35:22
and.
35:23
>> Loren: Feels like pretty preposterous to think that they have absolutely not
35:25
changed. But I can see why you'd say that to a
35:28
parent.
35:29
Uh, so this is where I want to kind of hit to, because I
35:32
think this is very applicable, at least in my perspective. You talk about
35:35
centering student questions as the primary
35:38
mission. So if we think about that in terms of a church
35:41
context, how do we do that? And it's not
35:43
necessarily going to be 18 to 20 year
35:46
old, 22 year olds in the church context, because
35:51
the data suggests they're loosely involved with
35:54
church at that age anyway. But, uh, you
35:57
may get them at the end of high school, you may get them as they're young
35:59
adults or later young adults, whatever the
36:02
terminology is now, as they're trying to trickle back and ask
36:05
some questions. How do you make
36:08
church so that
36:11
you're centering these questions, but like not, I
36:14
hate to use this word, but for lack of a better word, abandoning kind
36:17
of these central tenets,
36:20
your core theology, um,
36:23
does that make sense? What do you know?
36:25
>> Speaker D: So I think part of the answer is, and
36:28
I don't know how this works structurally, but part
36:31
of the answer is first of all
36:33
legitimizing questions. Okay,
36:36
um, that,
36:39
so that's one piece that
36:41
it's okay here in this church
36:44
to say I'm confused
36:47
about this. I don't know what I think about this. I don't know how,
36:52
I don't know how to read this passage of the Old Testament. I
36:54
don't know how to reconcile these ideas.
36:57
I don't know how my lived experience with my
37:00
neighbors can be
37:04
connected with my gay neighbors can be connected to these
37:06
scripture paths. How do you know there's an openness to being
37:09
able to at least acknowledge that
37:12
those are legitimate questions. I
37:15
don't think that's all kind of talk back issues in churches.
37:19
Um, I'm not sure that structurally
37:22
works, but I think there is a
37:25
mode that
37:28
preachers can
37:30
demonstrate that they have their own questions and the questions
37:33
are okay and that we're not afraid of questions.
37:36
So that's part of it.
37:40
A second component is
37:43
to think about what it means
37:45
to be,
37:47
um,
37:49
truly focused on Jesus.
37:53
Not just Jesus's words or Jesus's ministry,
37:57
but the broader theological understanding of the Incarnation.
38:00
You know, what does, how do we talk about
38:04
God with us and how do we talk about the broader
38:07
theological. We just, we um,
38:10
just at our church did a, um,
38:13
small group study on Philippians, you know, and
38:16
so you got the whole Philippians two, uh,
38:19
you know, just massive important passage
38:22
which, you know, kind of creates this context
38:25
which isn't clearly, which isn't just Jesus was
38:28
a good guy who got along with people. I'm, um, you know,
38:31
this is again to go back to the sort of
38:34
stereotype of mainliners, right, that this,
38:36
there's, there's depth there about what the
38:39
person Jesus means. A third thing
38:42
I would ask maybe, I think it's a third. Maybe it's a
38:45
sub point of the first or maybe it's the major point. And the
38:48
thing I said was a sub point
38:52
I once gave, was asked to give um,
38:54
a little staff devotional talk
38:57
to um,
39:00
at one of my colleges during the
39:03
summer. And um, what
39:06
I wound up talking about was what it meant to have,
39:09
you know, what it meant to trust God
39:12
and that. So often we get ourselves in the
39:15
evangelical world into this position that says
39:18
if we don't hold the line right here,
39:21
then we have to be true to God and
39:24
say, you know, there are days where
39:27
that skates really close to
39:30
idolatry, that you think
39:32
somehow that you're protecting God from difficult
39:35
conversations.
39:38
And I don't think God needs to be protected from difficult
39:41
conversations. You know,
39:44
um, and that's why that relates to that first
39:48
point. Uh, and even to my other point about
39:51
Jesus. I mean that's
39:53
challenging kind of what do we do with this,
39:56
you know, Jesus, here's what this person is.
39:59
What do we do? Do we do this or do that? Those
40:02
weren't easy. Uh, and that's part of the
40:05
dynamic.
40:06
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's interesting. I'm thinking too,
40:09
as we think about, maybe more practically speaking
40:12
too, when you think about, certainly in higher ed, you
40:15
can speak better this that I can't. But I'm just thinking like I have a
40:18
degree on my wall that I did entirely online.
40:21
Most of my seminary was completed online. It seems like the,
40:24
the shift has been practically
40:27
speaking to like online
40:30
alternative sort of education models.
40:33
I don't know if you want to speak any more to that. And thinking
40:36
again applying that to church, like does,
40:40
uh, how do we need to perhaps re. Envision
40:43
like the structural elements of.
40:45
>> Speaker D: Yeah, um,
40:48
let's see. Um, first of all, let me
40:51
say something about the
40:54
non traditional programming at colleges.
40:57
The degree completion program I was part of or online
41:00
programming or graduate programming.
41:04
The schools made the move to do that because it was
41:06
financially important to do so.
41:09
But to argue that those programs
41:12
carry the same mission components that
41:15
happens with an 18 to 22
41:18
year old residential student is just
41:20
impossible to articulate. It just doesn't.
41:23
>> Loren: Because even when I was doing my master's
41:26
divinity I
41:28
had to be on campus for a few classes. There's a
41:31
huge better. I felt so
41:34
much more connected and engaged even when I was a week long class.
41:39
>> Speaker D: Churches already have
41:41
the problem of
41:45
fostering spectatorship.
41:47
>> Loren: Right.
41:48
>> Speaker D: Um, I mean, the best thing we
41:51
do at our church every Sunday is the
41:54
eight minutes we spend in the passing of the
41:57
peace, which really involves wandering all around the
41:59
congregation, not just talking to people next to you. People just get up
42:02
and move all over the place. It is really the,
42:05
um, as a friend of mine from
42:08
years ago said, it is the remembering
42:12
of the congregation,
42:14
uh, that's just
42:16
impossible to do in a church of
42:20
750. Uh,
42:23
and it is absolutely impossible to do
42:27
by typing in the chat line on the online
42:30
service to say, oh, good to see you all on the
42:33
screen. Which you can't see because the camera is only focused at the front
42:35
anyway. So, um, that
42:39
becomes problematic.
42:42
I, uh, think it has a place.
42:45
I, uh, think one of the things we learned during COVID
42:49
is that it's a nice fallback
42:52
for people who
42:54
can't travel to the
42:57
congregation or as I
43:00
happen to know, uh, from people I
43:03
know at church. You know, it's, you know,
43:06
we got up a little late
43:09
and so we're just going to watch today and it'll be. And
43:11
I get that, you know. But there comes a point where if that's
43:14
all you do, you're not
43:17
part of the congregation in the same fashion.
43:21
My dissertation, uh,
43:23
40 years ago, was about people
43:26
who regularly attend church and don't join.
43:31
How prevalent was that? Do some
43:33
interviews. Why is that? Talk to some pastors. What do they
43:36
think about that? That was the dissertation. But
43:39
early on I had to decide what
43:42
I thought about the relationship between
43:47
kind of being in community versus
43:50
being on the rolls.
43:53
And it didn't take me long to figure out that being in community is the
43:56
primary driver of congregational life.
44:01
So being online
44:04
only online is a step removed from that.
44:07
And a step removed from that is being on the rolls and going at
44:10
Christmas and Easter. Um,
44:13
so that's, I'm thinking too,
44:17
somewhere.
44:18
>> Loren: I have it, there's a book coming out from Think
44:20
Baker, A strategically small
44:23
church.
44:24
Thinking economically too about this. And
44:27
I'm sure you can speak to this, you kind of already have, from the
44:30
Christian university perspective of going
44:33
online was somewhat about scale, I imagine, and financial.
44:37
Because again, you can only, from a campus
44:40
perspective, only house and
44:42
sustain so many students.
44:45
Similarly, I feel like certainly in evangelical church, the
44:48
megachurch model works because it's like financially
44:51
viable. You can keep Bringing in
44:54
people and your ministry staff
44:57
doesn't really have to expand exponentially.
45:00
Um, whereas like
45:03
this, you know I often say this like the, the
45:05
classic 20, 30 years ago church that we think of like the
45:08
150 member church, like that's almost eight. That
45:11
doesn't exist now. And it's really hard to maintain because of
45:14
giving levels decreasing.
45:16
>> Speaker D: You know you're right that the, the metrics have
45:18
shifted downward.
45:19
>> Loren: Right.
45:20
>> Speaker D: Um. And um. But
45:23
I used to argue that
45:27
up to 125 maybe
45:30
you can maintain the metaphor of the church's
45:33
family. Uh, and then it
45:36
gets really dicey from 125 until,
45:40
until I don't know, 250, 300
45:43
where you're big enough to have sub components.
45:46
>> Loren: Right.
45:47
>> Speaker D: Um,
45:49
um.
45:52
But there is that, you know what
45:55
happens when you're too big and then when you're
45:58
very big, when you're really big and you got subco. One of my
46:00
favorite little quotes and this is, goes
46:03
back to the
46:06
early to about 2011 I think.
46:09
But one of the books that Robert Putnam wrote, the Bowling
46:12
Alone Guy was about kind of community
46:15
organizations.
46:16
>> Loren: Right.
46:17
>> Speaker D: I used it a class
46:20
and one of the community organizations they studied was
46:22
Saddleback.
46:23
>> Loren: Mhm.
46:25
>> Speaker D: And he had this little throwaway
46:27
line that there were 152 people
46:31
on the mountain biking email list for
46:33
Saddleback. And I
46:36
always liked that image because that says
46:39
where community exists in
46:42
the really large megachurch, it
46:45
exists in interest pockets,
46:48
um, or in the
46:51
neighborhood small group. I mean that's. And the
46:54
loyalty is there much more than the loyalty is
46:56
to um, the
46:59
uh institution. There is a parallel there by the way
47:02
to the uh, non
47:05
traditional programming at Christian universities.
47:08
M is that if you talk to
47:11
people who do a degree completion or who do a
47:13
master's in divinity in
47:16
this online program with a cohort, your
47:19
loyalty is much more to the people in
47:22
the cohort than it is to the institution.
47:26
>> Loren: I mean that really speaks to the broader cultural dynamics we
47:29
are in right now. Right. Where people. Far less institutional
47:32
loyalty, it's far more
47:35
relational, connectional based. So I guess
47:39
what do you advise universities? Uh, what do you advise
47:42
institutions? What are they thinking of? Like we know we
47:45
can't necessarily like sustain our
47:48
model through a purely, you know, in
47:51
the university space on campus, in
47:53
whatever the terminology is, similarly for
47:56
churches or other institutions.
47:58
>> Speaker D: Part of. Well one, one of
48:02
several answers I have to that
48:04
um, is
48:08
my argument is that the
48:11
future of the fearless Christian university
48:14
involves a willingness to try
48:17
to meet the needs of the
48:20
rising generation. Even though the rising
48:23
generation, only 9% of them are white
48:26
evangelicals.
48:28
Um, the, the
48:31
interests of
48:34
Gen Z, the need for belonging, the
48:37
need for security, the need for their lives to
48:40
have meaning, the need to have impact, all
48:43
those things are very,
48:49
those are the kinds of things that
48:53
residential Christian universities can provide.
48:55
>> Loren: I mean frankly, what Christianity provides.
48:57
>> Speaker D: What Christianity provides, yes to kind of
49:00
move on to that. So to
49:03
recognize that we are addressing the felt needs of
49:06
people, not to prioritize the
49:08
individualization of that because that becomes problematic on
49:11
its own. But, but yes to
49:14
um, say
49:18
again. We invite the questions, we recognize the
49:20
deeds. We are here to provide belonging and importance
49:23
and meaning, um, I
49:26
think is possible. That
49:29
requires a willingness to
49:32
kind of step out of the past zombie patterns.
49:35
And rather than saying don't know,
49:39
you know, this is an old
49:42
argument in the sociological religion,
49:44
but is the question about believing
49:47
versus belonging and if believing is
49:50
primary and you are welcome in this place,
49:54
as long as you line up,
49:58
then that's
50:01
going to be a challenge. Um, and if
50:04
belonging is what's important and believing comes
50:07
along tailing that,
50:10
then that's a different, it's a different dynamic for the church.
50:14
>> Loren: Yeah. And I'm thinking, um, as I'm right now
50:18
believing in belonging. Jeff Kuse,
50:20
who had on a couple episodes, a few episodes past,
50:23
did a lot of work on this.
50:27
Maybe I'm too optimistic here, you can push back, but
50:30
I feel like this is possible. Going back to
50:33
that point about maintaining
50:36
ethos and theological
50:39
values. Like it's possible to say like, hey,
50:44
this is what your felt needs are. You're looking for purpose, you're looking
50:47
for connection. It's just about messaging.
50:50
It's like, uh, is that too simple? Is that too pie in the
50:52
sky?
50:54
>> Speaker D: Would say more about what you mean by just messaging.
50:56
>> Loren: Like it's reframing, it's
50:59
reframing to say like,
51:01
um,
51:04
like so like in my tradition Christian church, Disciples Christ, where
51:07
I'm ordained in like our big thing is
51:10
the open table communion,
51:13
blah blah, blah. Like
51:16
the central,
51:20
the central component of a worship service
51:23
in the disciples gathering. And it's funny
51:25
even when like disciples clergy, like you know, you've had what
51:28
they call worship is like we've had communion, so
51:31
we know we have worship. You know, uh, it's funny because like,
51:34
like in evangelical space, like they had.
51:36
>> Speaker D: Worship when they, when they do the music. Yeah, right.
51:38
>> Loren: Like they've worshiped. Um, but
51:41
I feel like there's a way to like when we get
51:44
stuck on like, well, we have to have a central table and we
51:47
have to have elders up there and we have to have, you know, the
51:50
elder give reflection, like, versus like saying,
51:53
what are the, what are the ethos and values
51:56
of the table? Everyone being welcome, people included,
51:59
God, love and graces for all. Like
52:02
translating that and not, not that I want to get rid of
52:05
the table.
52:06
>> Speaker D: Let me, let me add
52:09
one piece to that.
52:10
>> Loren: Yes.
52:11
>> Speaker D: Years ago, I realized that I
52:14
had been socialized to
52:17
see communion as this. Now, this
52:19
was with passing the little trays.
52:21
>> Loren: Right.
52:22
>> Speaker D: But to see communion as a very
52:25
introspective moment.
52:27
>> Loren: Yes.
52:28
>> Speaker D: Let me take communion and, you know,
52:30
let me dig down deep inside.
52:33
>> Loren: Yeah.
52:34
>> Speaker D: And even with the little trays, I
52:37
came to recognize the real
52:40
miraculous thing is to be aware
52:43
of all of these other people in the room
52:46
sipping the little cup and taking the little piece of whatever that
52:49
is at the same time.
52:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
52:52
>> Speaker D: Or now in our congregation,
52:55
we go forward to take
52:58
communion. The pastor
53:01
names us. Um, and I've helped
53:04
before. And so I know that the dynamic is, you know,
53:07
you are named and you are very
53:10
aware not just that this is communion and the table is
53:13
open, but this is Loren taking
53:15
communion.
53:16
>> Loren: Mhm.
53:17
>> Speaker D: And I'm even, you know, we
53:20
are communing
53:23
at the table with Jesus and each other
53:26
at that moment. And so that
53:29
notion of belonging gets communicated.
53:34
The word came to mind is programmatically, which is horrible.
53:37
Uh, institutionally,
53:39
um, in practice
53:42
is, uh. And I think it's
53:45
more than just messaging.
53:47
>> Loren: You're right, because you're getting at. It's a way of saying you
53:50
belong through the
53:53
tradition, but there's intentionality behind it.
53:57
Well, I want to keep talking about this, but we're running
54:00
out of time. Let's take a quick break.
54:05
We're back. We got the dogs riled up. So,
54:08
um, John, we only have a few more minutes. I know you got to run.
54:11
So let's take these closing questions, uh, as
54:13
seriously or not as you'd like to take them. So I
54:16
don't know if you want to think about this, like, maybe not from the
54:19
Pope, since that's the traditional question I ask you, but from your
54:22
context, like, if you were like, I don't know, what's
54:25
the president? Or you could like,
54:28
speak for all Christian universities or Christian institutions, like,
54:31
what are, what are a couple things. Some things
54:33
you'd want to do in that, a, uh, single day.
54:37
>> Speaker D: Oh, in a single day.
54:38
>> Loren: Yeah, you don't get a full.
54:39
>> Speaker D: Oh, you don't have a full year.
54:41
>> Loren: You got a day.
54:41
>> Speaker D: Um, let me answer this way.
54:44
>> Loren: Yeah.
54:44
>> Speaker D: What? What? You know, a Lot
54:47
of people say, oh, well, do you really
54:50
expect all these Christian universities change their positions?
54:53
And I say no, give me one.
54:56
>> Loren: Mhm.
54:56
>> Speaker D: Give me one for proof of concept. Yeah,
54:59
let's, let's just, let's find one and
55:01
let's, let's have the conversation about
55:04
what it means to be fearless. So
55:07
that the last chapter of the book
55:11
that I said was my made up field trip. Mhm.
55:13
Tells the story of two
55:16
universities, both of which I made
55:19
up, one of which has fully
55:22
embraced what I'm describing.
55:24
And I described some of what goes into the components of what
55:27
makes that work. And then the
55:30
second one was one that would like to do that
55:33
and is living in the shadow of another
55:36
very conservative university that I nicknamed
55:39
Driscoll. Um,
55:42
and uh, wants to know how not to do that
55:45
and so is kind of moving the other direction. So
55:48
I think the first move is
55:51
what I would want in a day is
55:55
to ask
55:58
Christian university presidents
56:01
to commit to
56:04
seriously engaging the questions their students
56:08
have. Uh, and that means they'd have to go
56:11
talk to them and they'd have to learn. And it's not just the
56:14
subset of people they think are, you know, the
56:17
right kinds of students, but just like the
56:19
absolute opposite of that. Start at the other end
56:22
and spend a day with the most
56:25
troubled and questioning student you could find.
56:28
And then imagine what it means if the
56:31
university was organized to see
56:34
that student deepened in faith m and
56:37
character and learning and
56:40
competence and ethical standing and all of
56:42
that. So that's, I feel like this could.
56:45
>> Loren: Work in church too if, if you're like, hey, we're going to do a
56:48
sermon series on um, like the, the
56:50
biggest questions. And uh, talk about like
56:53
where we believe. Not again from an open,
56:56
open perspective. Not like this is the law,
56:59
but have like a, you know, an open this
57:02
is why we think what we think type of thing.
57:04
>> Speaker D: Um, the, the, the alternative to that I'm
57:07
thinking of, uh, this goes back
57:11
a few decades, but James
57:13
Dobson's what, What Wives Wish Their Husbands
57:16
Knew About Women.
57:18
>> Loren: Yeah.
57:19
>> Speaker D: And where that book came from is he would go to his big
57:22
conferences and he had a preset list
57:25
of issues.
57:27
>> Loren: Mhm.
57:28
>> Speaker D: And then asked them to rank order them in the survey
57:31
and then wrote about what they said. But
57:34
he came with the issues already. So
57:37
if I play off that, the issue is not to say, well, what are the key
57:40
questions? Here's what I as the pastor think the key questions are.
57:43
>> Loren: Oh, that's good.
57:44
>> Speaker D: But you actually go and talk to the
57:47
most.
57:47
>> Loren: That's good.
57:50
>> Speaker D: Um, marginal person in the congregation and
57:52
say, what are your key questions? And speak to those.
57:55
>> Loren: Boy, this is good. This is good. Um, I want to keep talking
57:58
about that. About time, theologian or historical Christian
58:01
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
58:03
>> Speaker D: Yeah, that was a good question for having dinner
58:07
with anybody. I want dinner with the apostle
58:09
Peter and John. Wesley.
58:12
>> Loren: Peter and Wesley.
58:13
>> Speaker D: I think that would be a good conversation about kind of how
58:16
they think about faith and rigidity
58:19
and openness and all that.
58:20
>> Loren: Okay, here's another loaded question that you have to answer shortly,
58:23
I suppose. What do you think history will
58:26
remember from our current time and place?
58:28
>> Speaker D: It depends. Um,
58:31
history will remember that either
58:34
this is the point at which
58:37
we were really committed to being
58:40
a pluralistic culture,
58:43
uh, that recognized the inherent dignity and
58:46
value of all people, or
58:49
this is the time where a
58:51
subgroup of powerful people dominated and
58:54
everybody else was left to fend for themselves.
58:56
>> Loren: Yeah. What are your hopes for the future of
58:59
Christianity?
59:01
>> Speaker D: Um, is
59:05
more Jesus, more community,
59:09
less machianism,
59:13
less dividing everybody into good or evil.
59:18
Um, more
59:21
of a celebration of the
59:23
imago DEI and our
59:26
notions of common grace as they are lived out.
59:30
>> Loren: Well, uh, where can people connect with you? Get the
59:33
book, all that.
59:34
>> Speaker D: Ah, the book's available from all your favorite,
59:38
um, all your favorite places.
59:40
Um, you could just look up the fearless
59:43
Christian University, uh, from
59:45
Erdman's or Barnes and Noble or Amazon or
59:48
your local bookseller, or probably not your local
59:51
bookseller because it's a little niche.
59:53
Um, the other thing to find out is I
59:56
write a substack, uh, three days a week
59:59
with the very profound title of John's
1:00:01
newsletter, um, because
1:00:04
that's what I did when I jumped on the substack and
1:00:07
haven't changed it. And, uh, I
1:00:10
write as usually Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays, about
1:00:13
issues ranging from higher ed to politics
1:00:15
to religion, to, uh,
1:00:18
obviously Christian higher education, uh,
1:00:21
or to whatever book I just read.
1:00:24
>> Loren: Okay, we'll have to make sure we get your substack
1:00:27
in the show notes.
1:00:28
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
1:00:29
>> Loren: And then when we share this. Well, thank you so much
1:00:32
for your time.
1:00:32
>> Speaker D: Absolutely.
1:00:33
>> Loren: Thanks for coming over to my house.
1:00:34
>> Speaker D: And dogs are great folks in here.
1:00:37
>> Loren: The clicking and clapping, but really appreciate. And, uh, we always
1:00:40
leave folks with the word peace. So may God's peace be with
1:00:43
you and you.
1:00:51
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
1:00:54
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
1:00:58
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1:01:00
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1:01:03
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1:01:20
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