Latest / Mythmakers / What about the stone-giants? A user's guide to the giantic in Tolkien and elsewhere - Part 1

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What about the stone-giants? A user's guide to the giantic in Tolkien and elsewhere - Part 1 · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to MythBakers. Now this week's episode is a bit different because we're
• 0:12
  actually responding to a listener's question but more about that in a moment. My name is
• 0:18
  Julia Golding and I'm the director of the Oxford Centre for fantasy and also a full-time
• 0:25
  writer. I sort of juggle the two roles. And today I am joined by a friend of the Oxford
• 0:32
  Centre that is Jacob Rinnaker. Now Jacob is well known to us as a Tolkien scholar but he
• 0:40
  also has had a little job shift since we last spoke so perhaps Jacob you'd like to introduce
• 0:45
  in brief your new role because it's very fascinating from a fan's point of view.
• 0:50
  Yeah so I'm working for Robin's Berger that does publishing in children's books, games,
• 1:01
  puzzles and whatnot so in a lot of what they deal with. If you've seen the villainous
• 1:07
  board game they have like Disney villainous Marvel villainous and forthcoming Star Wars villainous.
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  They have some games. They have a forthcoming actual Lord of the Rings puzzle book game that
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  is tremendous. There's some serious care that's been put into making this so I don't know if I'm
• 1:25
  allowed to see that. I think it's been announced publicly if not hopefully they're not listening but
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  there's something for this particular group to look forward to coming to stores near you
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  sometime within the next year. Yeah that suggests another theme for us one day which is about
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  these crossover products because of course it's famous that Star Wars for example made a fortune
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  from its toy version. So this sort of world where it comes out of a film or a book or whatever and
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  becomes like a whole world and cosplay and all the rest of it is fascinating. Anyway so what was
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  the question we were asked and why have I brought Jacob back? Well we got this rather cryptic
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  message from a reader saying what about the stone giants in the Hobbit? They're really wild
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  and I thought about that for a moment and I thought yes you are absolutely right what about
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  the stone giants? So if you haven't read the Hobbit for a while they don't really impinge on
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  the story very much. There is a sequence in the Peter Jackson film which goes on for quite some
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  time with the sort of mountain rock people taking shape and then throwing stones each other in the
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  Hobbit and the dwarves. They're all sort of at risk but actually where do they come from?
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  I went back to the book just to check and it literally says oh watch out they're the stone giants
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  they're bad news they're throwing rocks. No sort of sense of where their backstory is so Jacob
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  do you have a theory where the stone giants actually come from? Yeah that's funny so I did
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  did some after thank you dear listener whom everyone for that question so that got me poking around
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  and yeah so with the Hobbits interesting like you said that they all learnly kind of mentioned
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  there as kind of a backdrop right that and they're mentioned in kind of the same breath as
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  this really evocative imagery of two storms clashing and so they kind of seem to be
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  almost equated synonymous with these kind of elemental you know grand almost cosmic forces
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  you know world bound cosmic forces and they yeah they don't they don't appear again there's
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  other in in the Hobbit itself there's a few other passing references to giants that aren't stone
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  giants right so this kind of this kind of you know the descriptor of stone in stone giants just
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  you know only appears here and I think I can't I couldn't find anywhere else in Legendarium where
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  stone giants were singled out but giants here within the Hobbit itself you have you know passing
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  references to giants like you know Bilbo wonders if this giant boulder that he sees in a stream
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  was maybe thrown there by a giant at some point but nothing is kind of fleshed out there and
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  blood orthon says you'd like to find a more or less decent giant so there's kind of a moral
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  dimension you know there's decent versus indecent I guess giants but largely these stone giants
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  kind of seem indifferent right they're so massive in scale they're they're not concerned with
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  you know they don't seem to notice Bilbo and company and even if they did who knows if they would
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  care about these little you know kind of minuscule creatures so it's so you do I know and then
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  this is and we can go into this perhaps a little bit later I'll wait for you to read on this in
• 5:18
  in Lord of the Rings the idea of giants and how that kind of develops over the development of
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  Lord of the Rings specifically as a story but it within within the world of the Hobbit it's this is
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  kind of a almost a flash in the pan you just kind of see this as a backdrop for for this kind of
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  adventure setting with like you said that they don't play a significant role in the story the
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  development of the story rather than to provide some sort of larger backdrop for the adventure
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  right against which the adventure is happening yeah I mean they have the plot point of driving the
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  the Hobbit and the dwarves underground I mean that's that's what the purpose they serve is
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  just skate from the elemental creatures they then get tangled up with the the goblin so you can
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  see you know you need exciting exciting turn in the journey to drive the the dwarves somewhere they
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  don't want to go but I suppose there's also an association here as you mentioned with the storms
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  of the elements and it made me sort of connect it with the later iteration of a sort of sentient
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  mountain because in the Lord of the Rings they have or in the fellowship of the ring they have
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  the passage up cadras which is abortive because of the attack of the weather which seems like a
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  a return in snow to the idea that somehow the elements can in a neutral not exactly neutral but in
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  a way that isn't involved in the the battles of elves and men can turn against travellers and
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  there seems to be some sort of correspondence there but I think just looking at their presence in
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  the Hobbit I mean the Hobbit is a less tidy book in terms of the legendarium than the Lord of the
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  Rings so for example there is like the random reference to is it the smog dying like a screech
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  of a steam train you know there is the it has a more storytelling awareness of our world element to
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  it and it has a more nursery feel so it could be that there are elements that are just chucked into it
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  to excite to the reader which don't have so much of a backstory but I do remember reading that
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  Tolkien thought he only had one reference in all of it which he hadn't actually sort of
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  plugged in properly and that was the the reference about the queen and her cats that comes
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  in Lord the Lord of the Rings somewhere I think Aregor mentions of past Queen and no doubt Tolkien
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  went back and you know worked out what that meant but I seem to remember him saying that was the
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  only thing that wasn't connected so maybe there are connections with the giants that we are missing
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  so let's dig a little bit more so let's think about the giant that figure in sort of world myth
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  before we come back to Tolkien and see as Lewis and people so thinking back to the sources of giants
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  I came up with two main sources which I felt influenced Tolkien and also see as Lewis and that was
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  the Greek version and the Viking version I don't know which one do you feel you want to address first
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  have that one of them maybe so I yeah so either one I went on a kind of deep dive into Norse
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  okay that's earlier it just kind of went down the Norse the Norse the Norse rabbit hole
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  but the Greek you know Greek Greek is easy is well I think there are a lot of similarities right
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  between Greek and Norse mythology in terms of giants and kind of the primordial nature right so
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  do you want so I think Greek could be less or probably take a little less time do I
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  want to do Greek first let's do Greek let's go Greek Greek okay yeah so yeah
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  so right so you have the the the Greek giants are children of Gaia and Uranus
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  and depending on which you know which kind of founding mythology you're reading they're either
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  coming from when Uranus was castrated right they kind of bubble up from the blood from Uranus from
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  that or they're natural born to Uranus and Gaia depending so you know some of the the most
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  massive largest elemental figures there they're you know even side by side with the gods or in
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  some cases you know seem to be in a a grander scale in some sense but they're largely right strong
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  aggressive and you have ultimately a kind of battle for power between the Olympian gods the
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  Gigantomaki which right the this this massive battle between the Olympians and the giants and the
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  Olympians end up winning and there's sometimes the same as Titans no this is a difference yeah yeah
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  so giants so these giants in right and in Greek literature broadly speaking and this is you know
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  terribly reductive but giants can be large but also they don't have to be so some people that are
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  referenced as giants aren't necessarily giant size wise and in some instances appear to be
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  you know kind of like mythical kind of like half like some sort of divine mythical creatures
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  but not necessarily you know like 40 feet 50 feet tall they could be smaller so but that's in
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  and kind of like the later literature and how they're dealing with quote giant so I think typically
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  I think of like the psych like cyclops and say like the Odyssey as that's kind of what I picture
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  is as kind of being a giant but they're of course like slightly separate related but I think
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  slightly separate stream it just all it all gets muddled and muddied when you're looking at all
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  the literature together as a whole right because each of these authors is kind of taking a different
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  piece of this and running with it so yeah so largely though I think when when you're talking about
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  earlier giants the earliest giants that are battling the Olympians and shortly thereafter they're
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  just kind of like brutes and almost seem to carry this kind of symbolic weight of chaos right so
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  the Olympians are these gods that are bringing in you know reason rationale order to chaos you know
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  disorder barbarism right and so that's kind of how sometimes it's used with later authors
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  referring to this story of the Olympian gods versus the giants is kind of in essence representing
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  this greater idea of civilization versus barbarism or Plato even references this as you know the
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  giants kind of representing base materialism or like materialistic ways of looking at the universe
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  whereas Plato of course is the correct way of looking at it which is more abstract right looking at
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  some sort of transcendent realm and that's where the Greek gods are representing so in at least in
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  in Greek literature it's kind of the idea the images are kind of abstracted and kind of taken
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  to symbolize a battle between order versus chaos civilization barbarism reason rationale and just
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  kind of you know base materialism in some so that's kind of the Greek yeah largely kind of why I see
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  you when I read it so and obviously the inkling authors all raised on Greek stories in the
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  in the schooling system of the day and I think one of the carry forwards there which I can see is
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  the sense of them not being the the sharpest of creatures and I think that's particularly
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  you can see that in CS Lewis's giants he has a number of giants some who are more benign than others
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  but that seems to me that he may be drawing on more of a Greek tradition so let's do the north
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  where I suspect I can imagine Tolkien's finger prints are slightly more visible I do remember that
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  from from the very foundational myths of North mythology the physical world is made from the body
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  of a giant right so yeah yeah yeah that's yeah so yeah yeah yeah yeah what do you have these
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  overlaps really interesting parallels in Mesopotamian mythology with the creation with the Babylonian
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  specifically creation myth but in when in in Norse you have right so yeah Emeer Emeer
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  please somebody's going to I daren't I apologize to anyone who does to everyone who does
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  Norse in any of its incarnations but right so that this kind of primeval giant is the first
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  being that actually exists in in the world right that's that's kind of formed from drops of
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  water when the ice of right niffleheim meets the heat of muskleheim so you have again apologies for
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  pronunciation but right so it's kind of in the middle of the you know extra hot extra cold in the
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  middle where that meets the watery area this giant kind of just develops out of so and then from
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  his person or its person kind of develops kind of grows other giants so that's what you have
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  that happening and kind of at the same time elsewhere meanwhile you have the original gods being
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  created as well so they're kind of two different tracks of of of kind of origins of for the gods
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  like Odin etc we think of more traditional gods Thor etc and then the giants that are kind of
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  born directly from the body of this initial being that is the first to exist in this in this world
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  so yeah they have a way backly out don't they those gods in the giants right well they yes
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  they're battling it out and they the gods that are the more kind of like human like gods end up
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  you know slaying this primeval giant and his blood drowns all of the other giants except for one
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  family that survives on a little old boat and then you know survives and it's the the
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  fashioning the gods fashion the world from this you know deceased gods body and set up from the
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  brow of this this primeval god mid guard right which literally is middle earth uh and it
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  is meant to protect in some ways the inhabitants of mid guard from these giants who they're trying
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  to push off to the periphery okay so we've got a wide range of giants there and just thinking about
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  the sort of trickle down effect when we look into the sort of world of medieval stories another
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  fascination for talking and Lewis in particular um you get versions of these giants in new forms
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  coming forward um and I think the one that obviously we know is of direct influences
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  going in the green night the green night is a giant but he is a giant in the sense of the
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  stature of one of the Greek ones he's not that huge but he's not did he's not dim uh he's elemental
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  his clever his uh a force of nature um he's magic he's scheming um so he's an absolutely fascinating
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  figure I think as a sort of interpretation of the giant as the other that threatens the worlds of
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  the court and the night um civilization he's offering a different kind of civilization uh in his
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  green chapel um so I think that's a that's a really fascinating giant and probably my favorite
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  of all the giants because he seems to have so many aspects to him yeah I agree no that's and yeah
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  the going in the green night is you know it's a fascinating story in and of itself right and uh
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  and when we knew yeah we know of course that you know Tolkien specifically there's there's actually
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  a letter uh of Tolkien that's up for uh auction right now for anybody who's it's it's it's
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  currently it's it's there you can get it right now uh it's it over six uh six thousand us dollars uh
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  right now um but uh it's a letter to a fan uh who's writing about Lord of the Rings hadn't quite
• 18:46
  finished reading it but what they had read uh what had impressed them so much they wrote letter
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  Tolkien wrote letter back uh and he says that he's right talking about the creation of uh middle
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  earth and he says right naturally in digested form I am indebted to the myths and legends of
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  literature but most specially to those of England and Wales uh for Gaelic of Ireland and Scotland
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  I have a great liking so I think yeah so definitely looking at going in the green night there's there's
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  a special place in Tolkien's heart for this kind of Celtic Gaelic um version of of giants as it
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  come there and I think that's a valuable insight into and especially the the right do we have the
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  green uh the green night and some parallels some interesting connections to giants and ants uh in
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  Lord of the Rings so hold hold hold the thought about ants because you made very interesting point
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  about the actual meaning of the word ant um we need to properly recognise um the Mabinyogin
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  and the Irish legends again giants causeway that's uh in for those of you who aren't familiar with the
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  the sort of geography of northern Ireland there's a fantastic world heritage site called the
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  Giants Causeway which is created by um cooling basalt from a bulk an ancient volcano and it's
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  called the Giants Causeway because it looks as though it's been made by a creature a giant um and it
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  links up geologically to fingers cave over in in Scotland so there there's a huge presence of
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  giants in the landscape that is um all over England Scotland Wales uh Ireland um and giants cut
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  into chalk surfaces um you know everywhere and um any large structure is often named after a
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  giant or a hero who is treated like a giant um so heroic people of that stature so there's a very
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  rich tradition there and all of these masses of uh influences are all going into what talking
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  called the cauldron of story and being stirred around so let's look at the specific mention of
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  ent because this word isn't actually Tolkien's word is it no no it's right it's an old English uh
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  often translated as giant itself so ent and giant uh in old English uh are
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  compared to be synonymous or have a close affinity to to each other um so yeah so it's really
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  interesting looking at how you know the development of Lord of the Rings the different drafts
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  that in early drafts you have references to Giants um not frequently right so it seems
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  to after the Hobbit as he's putting together Lord of the Rings you still have some references to
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  Giants but upon successive revisions they kind of get weeded out um and even
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  treebeard himself right so this idea of ent's treebeard in earlier drafts is described more or
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  less like a giant who's kind of dressed in green and are wearing you know male that looks like leaves
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  and he has a beard you know uh like branches but um and then it's described as having his own court
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  with you know some sort of courtly retinue right um the who stand tall who stand like young trees
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  so again this is the saying that they're standing like them not so there's some ambiguity there
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  are they actually trees but then as it kind of develops it seems like Tolkien is taking you know
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  what was happening in in what he was doing with the idea of Giants this kind of you know generic
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  idea of Giants as these large oafish creatures that you really get a better sense for in the
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  farmer giles of ham uh the the giant there for Tolkien is kind of this explicit you know just dumb
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  brute uh whose death and partially blind and just kind of bumbling um to then and these passing
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  references in Hobbit that seem to be connecting it to this wider world of children's you know
• 23:06
  stories about Giants and Knights battling Giants and that sort of thing he then kind of takes that
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  and it seems like he's trying to make it his own giving his own personal kind of internally consistent
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  idea of idea of Giants and it seems at least in my my reading of of kind of all this you know
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  preparatory material and and multiple drafts that he's kind of taking this idea of Giants and
• 23:30
  developing that within the legendarium into ends in some way what one aspect of Giants kind of
• 23:38
  becomes evolves into uh into ends um okay here's a theory here's a theory Jacob yeah um if in the Hobbit
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  we've got um stone Giants hyphenated stone Giants yeah maybe what we've got in lot of the rings
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  the two towers is wood Giants yeah um so you can imagine there's a sense of he's working through the
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  elements here yeah it's a very elemental landscape that we're moving in um so you can have
• 24:06
  that is that's where we're going here um with it you could yeah because because you do have in
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  you know um uh book of lost hails there's references to you know melco uh breathing
• 24:20
  Giants in the earth along with other monsters with the wicked dwarves ogres um but that doesn't
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  really kind of he doesn't follow that trajectory it seems so we have Giants mentioned
• 24:32
  in some of the earlier material but it doesn't it doesn't seem to survive as he's kind of working
• 24:38
  and reworking it that he really seems fascinated with like you're saying that perspore that kind of
• 24:42
  dimension of Giants the elemental Giants that are you know kind of the green the wood uh and follows
• 24:48
  those and develops that because he he says you know that he doesn't remember creating treebeard
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  and so this is something that kind of seems to be happening kind of organic organically for
• 25:01
  lack of a better term right right right right right but but it's but he he didn't see
• 25:08
  Tolkien didn't see himself as kind of like from whole cloth kind of creating consciously this this
• 25:16
  entity that is treebeard as an ent but then it kind of just kind of grows uh into into this idea
• 25:22
  which is yeah which which I find fascinating because it is so directly tied to the landscape
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  itself right the Tolkien was so particular about and he writes you know so movingly about uh just
• 25:35
  in describing he obviously cared about right trees landscape the world and the ends kind of become
• 25:41
  this vehicle for personifying giving a voice to the land right um to nature uh and that's yeah it
• 25:50
  kind of grows and then it becomes something that's distinct that we see like you're mentioning with
• 25:54
  going in the green night that we see the green night kind of having a tie to the green right the
• 26:01
  elements of wood kind of in in particular and so this is I think him perhaps you know Tolkien
• 26:08
  leaning a bit being drawing drawing a bit from that but then kind of amplifying it
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  100 fold uh in his own in his own the petri dish that is uh you know middle earth and the the
• 26:23
  broader right legendarium I'm getting a bit carried away with my theory here but I've got another one
• 26:28
  to offer you keep going keep going I love it yeah so we got Stain Giants and Wood Giants um the
• 26:32
  Balrog is arguably a fire giant because it's described as a sort of derivative flame isn't it um
• 26:39
  right yeah yeah it's one of those sort of elements that's created by the original um melco dark lord
• 26:49
  the the the super badgy so where we've got that that's earth um fire and uh wood we're doing quite
• 26:59
  well on our elements here right you can throw in the eagles if you want to do you want to do eagles
• 27:04
  you can you can go ahead and do that if you want for okay lose your connection to right so the
• 27:09
  air right that they're uh right in their manways you know kind of the specific you know a finity
• 27:14
  for for a manway who's largely in charge of right the kind of the realm of air um so I think that
• 27:21
  I think that works I think you're under something that's that's for the next academic article um not
• 27:26
  I write those anymore so I think what's really interesting is that in some ways another argument
• 27:35
  here is that everything but hobbits are giants in order the rings because our perspective our point
• 27:45
  of view is of the small so it means actually that the way it's positioned is that um we are going
• 27:55
  out into a big bigger world a world that doesn't care on understand the halfling the hobbit
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  so even the men that we meet are a bit like giants to the um the hobbits I mean you see that I've
• 28:11
  seen the film with all the discussion about how they did the force perspective and the the doubling
• 28:16
  to make this clear but you've got the sort of oh fish giant people in Bri and then you've got the sort
• 28:23
  of uh regal giants of the sort of gondor people and people of stature and the elves so you could
• 28:30
  say that there's this theme of perspective that runs all the way through Lord the Rings which
• 28:35
  reminds me very much of another literary antecedent um which is perhaps one of the first to make
• 28:42
  real use of this perspective and that's called scolvers travels which has the two worlds where
• 28:48
  Galover and one place is a tiny and in another place he's the giant so it feels a bit like that to
• 28:55
  me that they're talking's very aware of just how big or small you are in a fantasy world
• 29:02
  because that's really hard to be a giant isn't it right yeah yeah yeah you do yeah yeah absolutely
• 29:08
  absolutely and then you have yeah and you have nuance added kind of to that or kind of
• 29:13
  taking in different directions and I think and that's where yeah the the giants kind of being used
• 29:19
  as metaphor uh you see that in in some ways in I think here in in in Lord of the Rings definitely
• 29:27
  but also in the Chronicles of Narnia and some of C.S. Lewis's other writings where the idea of
• 29:34
  giant as as metaphor for something different even into sometimes contemporary literature uh which we
• 29:39
  can talk about shortly yeah let's turn to um Narnia so just off the top of my head I could think of
• 29:48
  there may be more I could think of three giants um there's the first one that we meet in Narn
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  the Witch and the Wardrobe who is turned to stone previously um and his giant rumble buffing
• 30:04
  causing name and he's the one who borrows the hank chiff to mop his brow that sort
• 30:11
  and he's obviously in the tradition of gentle but bit dim giants and then the next one I could
• 30:19
  think of was the one who stands as a marshal in the fight between Peter and Miraz and he is
• 30:29
  wimble feather who seems a close cousin or descendant of the one from line the Witch and the Wardrobe
• 30:40
  and then there's interesting giants and the ones that connect most to the stone giants of the
• 30:46
  hobbit are the ones that pop up in the silver chair um there's a lot of uh so going in the green
• 30:54
  night in this as well with the wintry setting and the christmas feast and all of this but there is when
• 31:00
  they're first introduced they are behaving very much like the um giants from the hobbit because um
• 31:10
  we actually get the giants throwing stones um and uh Jill who's called scrub uh says are they aiming
• 31:21
  at us? No said no said puddle glum we'd be a good deal safer if if they were
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  um these giants are terrible shots terrible aim terrible shots um doffers in the sporting world of
• 31:37
  nania but then of course the children then go into the castle where they're treated as
• 31:45
  uh guests but it turns out a bit like a jack in the beanstalk and sort of scenario very much that
• 31:51
  kind of fairy tale feel where they realize that they are the the prime dish not the not the guest for
• 31:58
  dinner they are dinner um so that world to me seems as though cs Lewis is drawing on fairy tale giants
• 32:10
  really um but the stupidity the silliness comes from a sort of um easily tricked element comes from the
• 32:17
  sort of uh the cyclops type giant says sort of bit of greek in there as well
• 32:24
  have i mentioned them all have i missed a giant thank you for listening to part one of this week's
• 32:32
  podcast come back next week to hear part two thank you for listening to myth makers
• 32:49
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• 32:56
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