Latest / College Is Fine, Everything's Fine / #41 Finding Clarity: A Conversation with Dr. Patrice Berry

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#41 Finding Clarity: A Conversation with Dr. Patrice Berry · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

I'm Dr. Sarah Olivo and I'm Dr. Liz Seidler and you're listening to College is Fine. Everything's fine.Okay, so I'm really excited today. This is another time. I have some clients that I work with. that know that I have a podcast and they tend to share articles with me, things that they think I would be interested in. And I struck gold again and shout out to my client, you know who you are, um, where they shared this New York times article about social media, particularly people who have high followings on tick tock that have mental health content. So I read the article, stumbled across Dr. Patrice Berry and reach out to her and she graciously agreed to kind of come on and talk to us today about some topics.So hello. Uh, would love for you to introduce yourself, PatriceSo glad to be here. I am Dr. Patrice Berry, licensed clinical psychologist. I have a practice in Virginia and I specialize in working with children, teens and adults that have histories of trauma and have just really been through a lot.I'm so happy when I meet people who are helping children who've been through trauma, I know just as a quick, like it's, I know that's not easy work and so I feel really grateful for you. I'll, I'll stop there. I could probably gush on, but we only have 30 minutes. I'd take up the whole time.You're wearing also a lot of different hats. Being a psychologist for a really long time. But I hope we can get into some of the other hats. One of the things I thought we could start with, uh, Dr. Barry is that I had purchased your book in preparation for the interview today. And I was reading the Ford of your book. And I believe your mother wrote the Ford.Am I correct there?Okay. And she quoted, Okay. There was a quote at the end of the floor that I really loved, and she quoted Napoleon Hill. I'm just going to read the quote for the listeners, and then I'll kind of ask my question. But the quote is that every adversity, every failure, and every heartache carries with it the seed of an equal or greater benefit. And, you know, the young adults in my offices continually tell us that the present moment that we live in is too much to handle in terms of today's climate, politically, socially, culturally. geologically, right? So what are some of your thoughts or tips for college students regarding managing stress in today's world?And really, my truth is that book came out of a really, really dark place. It could have been a dark place that turned into an amazing opportunity. So I would have never left my salary job if I didn't have to. So during COVID, schools closed and I, I had, I had two choices and I think sometimes when a crisis happens, we can feel stuck like we don't have options.And what I had to do is I had to use all the skills that I teach my clients. So therapists like we, we have to do this, the same things. And I had to take a step back and ground myself and really realize, wait a minute, this could be an opportunity. And, And really that's when I launched my practice. It's really funny because the clients, the one that told me about TikTok, because I thought I was too old to be on TikTok.So I've been practicing.not?It's like, what? Like who would, who would want to hear what? And it's really, it's social media has been this, this whole other thing. And What happened was I used to train staff. I used to run a school based counseling program. I loved, I loved working and doing those things and now I'm in private practice and social media is a way for me to connect and engage with other people in a way that I, I wouldn't be able to do if I was just doing my, my solo practice.Right. I think we had that shared mission. We were saying, you know, if we We have to all go outside of our comfort zones if we're going to reach people who aren't necessarily hopping right into our office with, you know, the time and money that and awareness that that requires. Um, someone said this to me the other day, and I have not had a chance to look it up.So if you made this quote up, I'm sorry. I'm going to tell it without referencing you, but I just loved it. And, um, That experience is a really bad teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson later. And so I realize what you were just got, you had a lesson that you had to learn after you had the big test.And I think that our, I think a lot of times that's what our You know, our young adults, our college students are having to go through. They're, they're getting the test first. So what are some of the tests you've seen or you've heard from in your work through TikTok where you've reached people who maybe can't be in your office?What are some of the tests they're getting before the lesson? What happens a lot in my practice is when people are coming in, they're feeling weak.They're feeling like they don't have. a future, like they're coming in hopeless and they're really looking for additional skills and hope. And what I found is I see that moment as their strength and really redefining what does it mean to be strong. I tell my clients, I jokingly tell them that I get paid more when they cry because I would rather them cry with me than cry by themselves.And, and I don't like I get, I get paid the same amount because often I'll see people trying to hold it back, not wanting to fall apart. And it's like, no, like, please, please do that. here. Like I can, I can handle it. I want to hold space for that. I want to be able to support you through this because one of the worst things to do is to be going through all of this and feel like there's something wrong with you.And I think there's really so much power. And what I love about TikTok is that people were real. So I'm not a big fan of Instagram. I'm there. I do stuff every now and then, but it really felt faker to like TikTok. A lot of my videos, I'm in my pajamas, like I'm, I'm in my like zip up onesie Christmas pajamas year round and I was able to show up as my authentic self and As a therapist, so the way I was trained is not the way that I practice now, so I was trained to be like, oh, you know, if a client asks you how old you are, redirect.Oh, so like, what? Why does that? Why is that important to you? It's like, no, like, I'm, I'm 41. Like, that's not a big deal. And that, It's okay for me to appropriately share because I don't want to cross boundaries, but there, there are things that I can do that can help us connect in session. I'm open with my clients about my own journey in therapy.I think every good therapist has to have like a good therapist and, and really just, just sharing like. I'm not telling you something that I don't do myself. Or if I do, because like sleep hygiene, yeah, I'm totally on my phone right up until bed. Like I will, I will tell you the ones that I, that I'm not great at, but research says it helps.Yes.know that like Accessing an audience, particularly a young audience, um, there really is a value of admitting your fallibility and using self disclosure appropriately. When thinking about what I'd like to ask you next, um, you know, part of, I feel like a lot of my work is, It's like helping clients borrow hope and faith from me, right, when they're encountering stressful life events and unfortunate circumstances. And I have some things that I think I'm doing to promote emotional resiliency in my clients, but I know this is a topic that you have expertise on and have written. And so when we think about, and even the word resiliency and like what that actually means, what are some thoughts about like where in your own work and the research you've done around what helps people be more resilient? I don't know yet.So in the midst of a crisis, when things are going on, what stands out is the bad. We focus, because our brains are wired to survive, and if a bear is chasing me, I don't need to pay attention to the flowers. But what can happen is that we can feel as though the bear is chasing us, but I might actually be safe.And so really developing felt safety. I don't watch a ton of news, because the news since 9 11, our news has went into this cycle of just doom and gloom, but, but The sad things that makes people watch, like hearing the bad, like hearing, Oh my gosh, what's happening.how they make the money.do like the advertisers, like, or, you know, I think about on the local news sometimes they'll, they'll start with, Oh, you know, there's someone on the loose and then you find out it's.It's eight states away or something. And so I just think that being mindful of what I'm watching, how is it making me feel? And if it's making me feel worse than I want to stop. And if it's making me. I feel like I can't do anything or that I'm hopeless or that the world is, is horrible and falling apart.Now, if there's something I can do about it and now if I can use my voice in a helpful way, please do. And then I also have to realize my limitations of often. So I know it feels like things are worse now. Our world. Historically, we're doing, things are better, but like things, some, some things are worse.But overall, like if you think 50, 60, 80 years ago, there are things that are better now that we didn't have back then. I think now we just know about it all because it's like you hear about it on social media, you hear about it on the news. And so that's where I do think sometimes. I'm going to be shutting some of that out so that you can be in your moment, so that you can be in your world.You can access the positive things in your life. The thing I love about this generation is they don't mind like, hey, if they have a toxic family member, they'll still set boundaries in ways that my generation wasn't able to. It's like, oh, you know, that's, that's your aunt. You have to talk to her. It's like, wait a minute.If she's Saying horrible things. If she doesn't accept, you know, this about me, I don't have to talk to her. And I, I really see hope in this next generation and I think they let us be more, more authentic.Oh, I completely agree. And by the way, I'm always just, every time I talk with any college students, even my own kids, I'm like, you guys are the reason we're all going to get, you know, like if anyone's going to make it, you guys are giving me hope, even as you're feeling sort of despair, you know, at times, but I, I do find that there's a lot of.Um, beliefs that keep people doing things like watching the news or paying attention. And so many conversations are like, listen, is it really helping you do any change that you want to be doing to just feel despair? You know, a lot of things are out of your control, but I find that some people are like, well, doesn't it make me, you know, kind of stay focused and aware if I watch or, and I'm like, listen, check in every week if you need to, but nothing's.None of the big stories are changing day to day and definitely not minute to minute, you know, so how do you, how do you set up a sort of, if you feel like there's something important about being aware of certain things, because awareness is amazing, that's fine. How do you set up, do you have a system of sort of setting up some timelines for them to be like, great, but once a week will do.So I prefer reading the news over watching it, and then once they bring on two people to just debate, I shut it down. Because, so they bring, they intentionally bring two people that are on complete opposite sides to just yell at each other. And nothing happens, and there's no new information that's, that's gained.And so I try to, because often the print media tends to just focus on the facts. Versus Some of the things that you watch, they're going to show you the pictures and secondary trauma is real. And so something that I do, so I am an African American psychologist and I don't watch if there are horrific things that have happened to people within my community.I don't watch the videos because it is too traumatizing. And there was a point where. I didn't share that publicly because I was like, Oh, you know, cause I kind of felt bad, but it's like, no, like I don't need to see that happen for my own mental health. I can, I, I just, I can't see it. And being honest, Hey, I'm a licensed psychologist and there are things that I just can't watch.I just can't see.Yeah, you give, you giving yourself that permission gives them, I think, other, other people that permission just to say, listen, this isn't something where, you know, I'm walking the walk here too. I do want to say secondary trauma for people listening who might not know what that means essentially is like when you're experiencing your own trauma based on a trauma that's happened to someone else.I do think that like you bringing this up, Dr. Berry, in terms of when our mindset is in a certain kind of mood state, we kind of are really hypervigilant and like filter and like want. to kind of consume that kind of content and get stuck in it and to like go back to the question about resiliency, it seems like you have an opportunity to choose where to focus your attentionand you're not really going to promote resiliency by focusing and consuming some of that content, right?That there are other moments and opportunities that you could be really savoring that, um, are going to help you deal with. You know, the turmoil or chaos a lot of people experience currently.And I might even do it for a period of time. So I might say 15 minutes a day. Or, hey, I might give myself an hour. Because some people, they're getting constant notifications on their phone. Or they're constantly seeking it, or all day. Because what it's doing is it's keeping their brain in survival mode.And when I'm in survival mode, I can't think. And I think that's important for college students to know. Because that's why they're in class. on X or on and, but like, and you're, you're completely missing everything that's happening because you're just in, in that, in that mode. And so I, I have to practice being mindful.So I am wired to be a little bit more anxious to be a little bit, what if, what if this, what if that, and I've had to focus on what is in this moment, what is, and that's been something that's been helpful for me.I like that because it's, it's a quick reminder of a lot of important things, like, instead of what if, what is. Can I borrow that from you? I know that quote, so I'll give you credit.And I might have taken it from Lynn Lyons. She's an anxiety expert. I might have, I might have taken it from her.I know,it's sort of the greater good as long as it helps somebody not do the what if thing. You know, I'm happy to give credit to whomever did that because it can, you know, I think that when you talk about that survival mode, I, a lot of times I keep going back to like, Hey, we didn't evolve to have constant access to dating apps, giving us feedback about ranking our likes.You know, we, our brains can't catch up that fast. And so one of the. Things I think I really love about your message is saying instead of just like, Oh, here's all the things you need to be doing to be resilient. It's actually okay to not be resilient, that that's not your fault. And I do believe that there are certain words that just going to get taken.And Kind of edit it down and now the resilience is the big word or grit is the big word or whatever the word of the day is and suddenly it's sort of like, oh, you're either resilient or you're not, or you have grit or you don't, as opposed to thinking, I don't know that the, the setup is built for everyone to constantly be resilient andthat I look at resilience is. And I think you're resilient to be in therapy. You're resilient to take your prescribed medication. You're resilient because I think sometimes we think resilience is not needing those things when I think mental health is health. Uh, the same way somebody can go regularly to their primary care doctor, I think taking care of your mental health is incredibly important and understanding how mental health affects physical health, how, and just how everything can really snowball when things are, are out of whack.Resilience is something that can be developed in anyone. It's not something that you have or you don't have. What it is, is it's implementing skills and tools. And if somebody doesn't have what they need, and there are some tragedies, there are some things that are the worst. And in that moment, you might need to fall apart for a minute, but then have people there to help you get back up.So I think it's resilience doesn't mean nothing bad happens. It means when something happens, I eventually get, I eventually get up and keep going.there's no timeline to it. One of the big things we talk about is that there are reasons we have certain emotions. If someone is experiencing grief or sadness or there are reasons our body. Or our mind kind of shut down and stop, and it's because we might need that time to, to your point, kind of fall apart.No one is, there's not like a, oh, you're resilient if you get better in X, Y, and Z sorts of time when it comes to crisis. And I think, I also love that you're saying, when you come in to therapy, that that's being resilient. Because you're, as you said that, I was like, you're right, you're fighting. A lot of reasons that society or family or whatever culture say don't go.You're actually fighting past that, and that's ballsy.It takes a whole bunch of strength to sit across from a stranger and just talk about all the things that a lot of people might not even know. Your deepest, your darkest, those thoughts that keep you awake at night. Like that takes an incredible amount of strength. Finding the right therapist so that that happened to me where my first therapist wasn't the right fit and it took me years to try again because I had never heard someone say that the, we learned about it in school but my professor recommended this person and so I put them on this pedestal but they just they weren't right for me and but once I did find that right person it just feels right and I think you know in the first one to three sessions is this, is this working?Yeah. I've always just like, hey, walk away. You know, you, you can have an opinion on whether, just because they got the degree doesn't mean that they're the right fit for you. You know.I actually feel the same way, too. I mean, just personally as a therapist, I usually know after the first session of somebody is a good fit, even for me. So I feel, I hope there can be, and maybe culturally, like, and with this generation, more honesty, rather than feeling, like, stuck in saying, you know, in a therapeutic relationship, but, you know, just getting your foot in the door or seeing someone is difficult, but, you know, maybe this is a good transition to, you have like a very robust presence online.I, you know, in my research, maybe I'm not getting the numbers up today, but I feel like you have over 10, 000 subscribers to your YouTube channel, Psychologist Responds, which has a lot of broad content. I tried to, I mean, there's a lot to consume, so I consumed a little bit of everything. Um, and over like 65, 000 followers on TikTok and, you know, just 6, 000 on Instagram. Um, so when thinking about, uh,So basically, all of them more than Yeah, but yes, yes, yes.How did you get into this and what are you thinking about when you make the choice to share a certain content online?So I started on Instagram and YouTube first because I knew I was launching my private practice and I accept insurance. And so marketing isn't a huge thing, but I just thought it would be good to have a presence online. And then that client was like, Hey, cause I kept sending them YouTube videos. And they were like, what about Tik TOK?Because they wanted those small bite size. And then I downloaded it and I immediately started creating content and community. So what, the way that I view all of those numbers, all of those follows subs, that is a community of people that I get to. Provide information and I turn away probably five to ten people a week that want to work with me for therapy and can't because I just, I don't have, um, I have a solo practice and, um, and so this was a way for me to just reach people that I could never see in my, in my, in my private practice.And, I really, because there's some misinformation online and so I wanted to be able to be a resource that could provide accurate education on those, those platforms. And the YouTube one is funny because I do like court reactions now, which is, it wasn't what I thought was going to happen, but like, that's what.That's what it because I wanted it to be psycho education and then the court stuff. So I'm just I'm just going where the algorithm takes me. But protecting your mental health online, like that's my my other passion. Because as a creator, I get the worst comments like people are mean. And it's like, don't you know that commenting like that?The algorithm is going to send you more of my stuff, like if you really didn't like it that bad,be, at least be mean and smart, but if you're gonna be mean and just ineffectivelike one, one time. So I have, I have curly hair and somebody commented, I love your straight hair. And it's just like, why would you? And I, so I just delete, but, um, so I don't. react angrily to any of those things because it's just, um, I have a group of creator friends that I'm able to like vent to when I, when I need to.But, just being able to provide that safe space, because lots of people don't, don't have that.And just answering general questions, that's something that I've found to be helpful. When you said there's a lot of misinformation online, one of the questions we really wanted to glean from you is that you're so right, and why I feel really grateful that you're putting yourself out there and kind of tolerating the comments. Ultimately, that's probably why a lot of therapists aren't doing it.First of all, because we don't know how to talk less than one hour per sentence, right? So I don't know that it's a skill set. Also, that does open you up to, to more. So I love that there are people out there trying to give the correct information. Thank you. What are ways people might be able to tell the difference?And I think one of the things Liz and I see when people come in, they're like, well, I have blank, blank, blank type of OCD. And I'm like, that, that actually isn't a type of OCD, but it's in. So we think on the one hand, that got them to ask me a question about it. Cause someone was online saying. Do you have this and it connected and we were able to have a conversation so I can't be upset that it was Misinformation, that person came in and was able to get the right kind of guidance for what they were dealing with.Because it's not like they didn't have a problem. It just was maybe sort of not the technical rights phrase. Big whoop. Um, at the other end of the extreme are people spreading misinformation about things like what therapy is like or, um, ways to get some help. And how do you think people could know the difference?There's no verification mark on people's, um, There's no verification mark on people's profiles. Any tips?YouTube actually does. So I'm a verified mental health professional on YouTube, but the other platforms do not check someone's credentials and people have gotten in trouble because where people have figured out that somebody wasn't actually licensed or that the information they were sharing was not accurate.And for me, I think sometimes As a licensed person, I'm careful to not say, Oh, if you have trouble paying attention, that means you have ADHD. Because trouble paying attention could be anxiety, it could be depression, it could be a lot of different things. And so sometimes those very general videos, I appreciate when clients say, Hey, this resonated with me.What do you, what do you think? I do tell them if they're going to go get an evaluation, don't say like, I looked up on Tik TOK. I think I have autism because like, like the, the, you will make the person like the people, people get mad about that, uh, because I do consume and do so much social media. I don't mind it personally, but that that's the talk of the therapist's Facebook groups.And so I think being able to. Help clients. share resources. So I love it when a client brings something into therapy and it's like, Hey, this really resonated with me and I've learned things. So I learned about spoon theory. I didn't learn about that in school. I learned about, you know, I've, I've learned so much personally on, on the apps that I do see a benefit, but then I also do see very generic and vague.information that applies to a whole bunch of stuff that somebody attaches a specific diagnosis to, I think that can be, can be problematic.Yeah, I remember taking my abnormal psychology class in undergrad and the teacher said we're going to go through all of these things and you're going to think you have every one and I was so grateful that he told me ahead of time because that in fact 100 percent came true. I was definitely schizophrenic.I was definitely, I had all theAll of them.Um, because you know, some, if you have a little bit of information in a single point in time, it's easy to make grand leaps to that little data point. You know, but there's a lot of data you have to kind of gather before you have something super official. So I like the idea of, you know, sort of, yes, being open minded knowing you can learn a lot.And also if it's something you feel like you're going to about to act on, you might want to do a little bit more digging past the, you know, the algorithm of TikTok or the time limit of that, of that platform. Um, I know that we are out of time and I'm so. Bummed because I could talk to you all day. I hope you'll come back if, if, and we, we'd love to give you a chance because we talked about your book, but please share anything that you think our audience would love to hear, including the title of your book.We will obviously put a lot of this in show notes, but, um, you're, you're clearly a wonderful wealth of information. So how can people find you? How can people get yourSo my book is available in Audible. So I have a processing thing where it takes me forever to read books. So it was really important to me to have it be accessible. So, uh, and I recorded it myself, which was way too much work, but I did it and it's, and it sounds good. But my book is turning crisis into clarity, how to survive or thrive in the midst of uncertainty.And part one is just survive. Let's just get through it. And then part two, it has tips and resources to thrive because I work with a lot of clients that come in in survival and they're at a point where they're ready to kind of take it to the next because often the things that we pick up to survive, those can be the hardest things to let go because maybe.Um, being, having really big emotions kept me safe for a period of time and it can be really hard to think and trust that my partner will hear my emotion if I don't make it really big. And so I really, my approach is to be validating and empathetic and then also nonjudgmental. I I'm not a technic, I'm not a, I've done a lot of DBT trainings, dialectical behavior therapy, it's a modality that I practice personally and then I also teach to, to my clients.My, I'm a little ornery, like I'm a little, I don't like to be told what to do. And so I, I don't, I'm not adherent. I don't do like the dbt program because you have to do groups. And I'm just like, Nope,Oh, we're familiar.I just, I just want to teach skills. And, and I, so I don't have anywhere that I just tell clients, Hey, this is Transcribed If you want to learn some skills like this is an additional thing that we can add to to ourYeah. They're great lifeYes. But, um, thank you all so much for having this platform and for inviting me to be here. I would love to come back in the future. Thank you so much.Yeah.you, Dr. Berry. Like Sarah, Sarah said, we'll share all your handles, your YouTube channel, everything. We're so grateful that we've been able to have you on, hear about your work and share a resource that we've now vetted. So thank you so much.Thank you to our guests for sharing their stories and their advice. This podcast is for college students and we want input by college students, so please reach out by text, email, or voice memo to collegesfindpodcast at gmail. com or 929 500 2231. Tell us your story, give us tips on topics you'd like to hear, or give us feedback about an episode.Follow us on Instagram at colleges find podcasts for episode announcements and resources. And last but not least, if you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to the podcast. Every hit of that plus button helps us keep growing.