Latest / K12ArtChat the Podcast / Episode 269 – Leslie Grace – Balancing It All: Life as an Elementary Art Teacher

Transcript

Episode 269 – Leslie Grace – Balancing It All: Life as an Elementary Art Teacher · K12ArtChat the Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, I'm Laura Grenler.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Matt Grenler.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: And today on K-12 Art Chat the podcast, we'll be chatting with Leslie Grace about what elementary art teachers need right now.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Leslie Grace also love your name because you have two first names, but not really.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: But uh my name is actually Laura Page.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: People don't know that, but it's also people would say to me my whole life, you have two first names.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I bet you get that a lot.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: But every time I say your name, I think of that.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think I've ever told you that.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Leslie Grace is NAEA's elementary division director.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, she's also many, many, many other things.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love it, Leslie, if you would tell everyone all about the many things.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: All about the many things, about you, your education, pathway, just just all the good things.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Happy to.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I've actually got three first names if you really want to get into it.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Leslie Marie Grace.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, oh, you're part of the Marie Club.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: I see.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, part of the Marie Club.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I'll respond to really any of them.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Some people even get into the habit of calling me Leslie Marie, but here I am, Leslie Grace.
• 1:23
  unknown: There you go.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, so um I'm here in Philadelphia.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: I teach K to 8 at a small neighborhood elementary school called Nebinger.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been there for about the past 12 years, and I've been teaching art now for about 20 years, which I'm like both proud and a little terrified to say because it doesn't feel like 20 years.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's crazy.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't feel like I look like I've been teaching 20 years.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: I certainly get a strange reaction whenever I say that.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, it's been 20 years.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh I got my schooling back in Atlanta at Georgia State University, my undergrad, and then my graduate degree at St.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Joe's here in the Philadelphia area.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then have just kind of tossed around um my my extra learning within um PAEA, NAEA, and around the um Philadelphia area.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: But um outside of my classroom, like you said, I serve as the elementary division director for NAEA.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but over the years, I've also been involved in a lot of art education leadership.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was a part of the School for Art Leaders class of 2019.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I've got my own POWs from the Sal or Sal Pals as we call it.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, of course, I would butcher how that gets said because that's my thing.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: I butcher things.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I've um also been the past president of the Pennsylvania Art Education Association, came off that leg just a few years back.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I founded a group in Philadelphia called the Pencil or the Philadelphia Art Teachers Alliance, um, which I passed away leadership just this year.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of like we'll probably talk about boundaries later, but that's a boundary I created for myself.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing that since 2014 and it was time to pass it along.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's a lot.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it's time for me to connected art league.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, I missed that one.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that just I mean, you know what's interesting is that, you know, no, I wouldn't have thought you've been teaching 20 years.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that too.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: You you you're looking really good.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: You look like a newbie.
• 3:34
  unknown: Yeah.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I didn't, there were a lot of things there that even from hanging out with you in Cannes, that uh things I didn't know about you.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's that's awesome.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love I love being able to find out new things about people that I've known for a long time.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: It just means I need to start asking some better questions, I guess.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have the privilege of doing this podcast.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: We get to know all the things.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's true.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's just the art teacher stuff.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of other crazy stuff you don't know.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there you go.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's always the hidden, the hidden fun stuff.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the art teacher.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: We always have those secret crazy things.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, I was just um thinking though, Leslie, you know, in your roles in leadership, there's so much going on in education and in art education right now.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the hot topics that, you know, when people come up to you, they want to talk about, you know, or they want to get your ear to say, hey, you're the division director.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I want to say.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, that's a great question.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I can come prepared with that one because um at the um at the convention every year, we do a survey.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we put out like a little QR code um at every session we lead for the elementary division.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we have these little uh carousel sessions, we call them, and we ask folks to take that survey and uh we want their feedback to know what they would like taught or uh presented at the next convention sessions.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so in that I have results from those surveys, and that feeds us to help us know what we're gonna be teaching, or I don't know why I keep saying teaching.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's the teacher.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: We teach adults too.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we'll be presenting um the following at the following convention.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: So um there's really a lot of continuity from year to year, what happens, uh, what's being said.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, most requested sessions come across, of course, always hands-on.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: People want hands-on sessions all the time, which we do, um, a big make and take session, always popular.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and classroom management comes up a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: So we're always looking for fresh ways to take on that topic, which we are doing this year.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Studio Habits of Mind came up, so we're actually folding that into curriculum this year.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we'll have a session on curriculum.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, teaching with contemporary artists also comes up quite often as a hot topic.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: So um that we are also folding into curriculum for one of our sessions.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: So we're finding ways to sort of umbrella sessions and um cover some of the topics within topics.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: That way we're covering everything people want.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: So um, when we have our call for proposals out, we are sort of asking people to fit within some of these topics.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, I think that's kind of important because you know, there isn't just like one topic that covers it all.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta, it does all kind of scaffold on and on, you know, on itself.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And those, you know, parts of the areas also impact other areas, and we you know need to make sure we're aware of that.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's just thinking studio habits mind, and contemporary artists are like much.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they could be linked, I mean, completely.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you think about art worlds and you think about just the the the process of being an artist and what it means to be an artist, that's that's ties into any of the contemporary artists right now, and right really great.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I'm wondering a little bit about balance because you said something earlier about.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, Matt and I struggle a lot, you know, in certain weeks more than others, but just with this idea of like, how do you balance life?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you mentioned, you have a life outside of art education, you know, how do you balance that life outside of art education?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: The the crazy pace of teaching and the relentless like asks at an elementary school.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know when Matt was teaching elementary, I just felt like, can you stop asking him to do all the things?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then also, you know, trying to make art just for yourself, you know.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you kind of balance all of those?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, especially if you might be running on a low tank already.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I I was thinking about this a lot, and I think something I struggled with for many years and still struggle with a little and can relate to some teachers on this regard is the question of like, how do you make art for yourself?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: How do you carve out that time and and putting that expectation on teachers?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the idea of like, you're an art teacher and you should also be making art and maintaining a personal studio space.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's for some people it's really important to be feeding that practice, but others kind of like your teaching is your art.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I know plenty of art teachers who who have felt that way.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: I felt that way for many years.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's only until recently that I've started to carve out a little space for myself.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it really started from taking a summer workshop at Moore College of Art and Design.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and it just, I just kind of try to work on it during, I'm like sitting next to my paintings as I like to look over at it.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably gonna take like the whole school year to complete because I'll just find like a minute here and there to work on it.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's um important that we give ourselves permissions to recognize that, you know, it could it that creativity can look different for everyone.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I I teach hundreds of kids a week.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: I run a drama program.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm involved in all kinds of different leadership.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: I have my own little fur family and my husband's and life outside of school.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's times when I don't have that capacity to come home and sit in front of a painting and work on it or whatever type of art that I might want to be doing.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, there are times that I will allow myself that.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think that it's important that um we recognize that different relationship that art educators have with their creativity.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that we don't try to put that expectation that somebody has to have another thing to check off on their list, that they have to be making art.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's another um another thing that they have to do.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um sometimes we do need permission to make something that has absolutely nothing to do with our classroom, but sometimes the art that we make in our classroom too can also kind of fill that fix that we have.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I guess that's sort of my answer to balancing the art that we make.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: The rest of everything is I'm I'm I I'm maybe like a crazy exception to the rule because I do a lot.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I'm finally at this point in my life where I'm starting to slow down and really create boundaries for myself.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like I like I said, I do drama club, I have art club in the mornings, um, and I used to do all these other additional leadership things like can and um PAEA and um NAEA, and and I'm I'm looking forward to this moment of alull and allowing myself to come home and do nothing.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: So um my role in NAEA ends in March, and I'm just like, there's gonna be nothing to do for a minute, and I'm so excited for that.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll pick something up sometime after that, but for a moment, I'm happy to do nothing and I I am going to be comfortable with that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to allow myself to be comfortable with that.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a fair statement that you bring up because I I can certainly relate to that in you know, for as much of time as I invested into can, it was nice to just unplug from that.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I get what you're saying.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I also really respect how you how you said that, that you know, the the level of creativity looks different for everyone because I was thinking about I was I was thinking about uh that that podcast we did with Jorge Lucero that was talking about you know your classroom kind of being your medium, like the way your your teaching practice being your medium and how we shouldn't uh disqualify that as being, you know, that is that is something that is a craft.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: It is something that you work on.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm glad you mentioned that because it's not something that you have to oh, another job for me to do.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I have to make sure I'm doing this too, because you're already frazzled, you're already burnt out, and that's just so and I can't think of, I mean, over the years working with so many art teachers, uh very few of them do the same lesson exactly the same twice.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're always, you know, thinking about just creativity.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: They they want it, they want to change it up, they want to see it different, they want to come up with new ideas, they want to, they want to put their a new spin on it, they want to be contemporary with what's going on around them in the world or what the needs of the students are.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that that's something I'm really glad that you called that out too.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just having the same exact thought about that conversation that we had with Jorge because it's just this idea that like can sometimes, yes, it's great to be able to make, but there are times in my life where I go stretches where I'm not.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I just it's there's so much, you know, and I can only do so much.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so to say that what you do every day is creativity and call that out and make it very clear, I think is really important for teachers to hear.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'm the same with lessons, like I don't teach the same thing every year, and that is like the most insane thing I do to myself any week.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I couldn't have it any other way, I would get bored.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of art teachers would.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, as as a as a former elementary art teacher as well, um, you know, I sometimes think about the the disconnect for administrators um and kind of their view on what art class primarily is or should be in some ways.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's a uh a prep period for general classrooms, sometimes it's um a place to make wonderful decorations for the school, um, or at least they think that it feels that way.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, like what do some of the the art educators kind of need to, or I'm sorry, some of the administrators need to kind of understand about kind of the instructional rigor of elementary art, you know, that there is one for one.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And just kind of how do how do art educators kind of advocate for their space to be treated as a professional space, a a studio where, you know, like a classroom, not just a flex room.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: I I love this question.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna start it by saying, in case my administrators, um, my principal will listen, um, which I will share this with her, so she probably will.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she absolutely supports my classroom and I'm I'm in a very lucky situation.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the day she leaves, I leave.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm terrified of the next person.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but um uh I am in a very lucky situation with that.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think that one of the biggest things school needers, uh school leaders need to understand is that it is not a break from learning in our classrooms that students are learning.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that when my students are with me in the classroom, sure, the teacher gets a prep period, but my class is not prep class.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely loathe it being called that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the kids are not prepping for anything unless they're prepping their clay.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm teaching, right?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm teaching, they are learning.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's a tremendous amount of instructional rigor that is taking place in the elementary art room.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: The kids are problem solving, they're making decisions, they're communicating ideas visually, they're reflecting on their work, they're taking risks, they're revising, they're doing all the studio habits things, right?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: There is rigor happening.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then something doesn't work, they're trying and trying again.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so all of what we're doing, you know, all of that applies to the standards.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: We have vocab.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Everything that's happening is important to their learning and their growth as a young person.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes, you know, people are gonna see the finished product in the hallway hanging up and they're thinking, oh, it's beautiful, look how cute, but they don't understand the process that goes behind it.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes people just need to get into our rooms and see that and understand that um to truly know the process.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we we have to advocate for that, right?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: We have to ask principals and admin to come into our classroom to see that if they're not getting it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and sometimes even maybe hanging up with your artwork explanations of the lessons, explanations of what the students are doing or a rubric of some sort.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that could be a helpful tool of advocacy.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's also important to have the message that art matters because art matters, that visual literacy matters.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: It shouldn't be that we're creating this message that um art is important because kids are learning literacy through art.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that can happen.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, you can learn some math things through art and blah, blah, blah, but art is important because creativity matters.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that is something that um we'll have to be able to communicate and put into words in some way for advocacy that can be difficult.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, we just have to help administrators see what we're doing and make that visual to them.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean if I I think that the best thing you said to me too is that, and and this was, you know, especially when Matt didn't always have the administrator that you have, um, you know, trying to get them into the classroom to see what's happening and to see all the skills they're learning and using and and improving.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, true rigor, the problem solving, the reflection, the revision, all of that.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's they just gotta get in there.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the hardest thing sometimes.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like my my kindergarten kids, for instance, like right now, my um we call it an SPM.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure it's called different things in other states, but it's the student performance measure, the way we get graded as teachers.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, my students, I do it with my kindergarten students, and theirs is based on learning how to color more solid and how to color in one direction.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's so simple and so seemingly silly, right?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not because what it's also doing is I know, but like I know, obviously you know that, but someone else might not.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, what they're doing with that is that um, you know, they're working on their fine motor skills and they're working on that control.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: So there's so much more to that, and it's that scaffolding underneath it that becomes more intentional.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then with my older kids, like in CAN, so Matt, you'll know this from what I've talked about in CAN, you know, I was doing work with them on reflection and assessment and them building student, um, building their own agency um beyond that um understanding that their art could um speak and mean something.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: So all of that is building on something more than uh, you know, art relating to the academics, it's art for art's sake.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Leslie, I was thinking about art matters just for art and art's sake.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking about budgets because, you know, unfortunately, we live in the great state of Texas, which has a lot of great things about it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: But right now in the city of Texas, we have a severe budgetary problem in public education.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when you have a budget problem in all of public education, the arts often get hurt first.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're seeing um some of our colleagues around here with budgets of less than a dollar or maybe two dollars per student for the entire year.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that means that teachers are having to find money for basic supplies, just pencils and paper out of their own, you know, pockets or um having to be creative.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just wondering, you know, what are some of the shifts in funding support that elementary art teachers can, you know, work with their districts on, help.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a similar question the one before about getting administrators to understand and you know, so that they're not having to stress all the time about that supply budget management, that is those extra stresses.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard enough just teaching a whole school of elementary students, and then you throw on top of it this where the supply is coming from.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the conversations that you would suggest having?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, obviously, we know this needs to be a fundamental shift in the education system and our states and our and our government in total, but you know, who knows if that's changing anytime soon.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: But uh I part of okay, so I have been like the queen of fundraising um for a long time in in my area.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh donors choose, um, just uh I've done so many projects on that, gotten so much done, just fundraising at my school as it is.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: I uh writing grants, like I have been able to get so much for my classroom.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: I do have a budget.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: My first year of teaching, I did not.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: I had started an art program from scratch at the school I was at.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I went to Nebinger, I started that art program from scratch as well.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I was really building up from nothing.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I I mean, I know all about fundraising.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to me about it if you want.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: But here's the problem I think that we have to move away from this idea of like the hero teacher bringing in money and fundraising and saving their classroom and the budget.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because we can't rely on that and we shouldn't rely on that.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we our teachers were good at making things work, right?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: We can scrape together that money and do that fundraising.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: We can get some cardboard and some pencils, and you know, you know what, we can turn this into a project, but we shouldn't have to.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: We should be able to have that budget that makes our classroom work.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: We shouldn't have to be performing these miracles.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, so we have to be able to get into these conversations with our school board.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have to go beyond our admin because they're not the ones ultimately who make the decision.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: We have to go to our school board and then to our city council, and you have to have those hard conversations.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: You have to talk to them and you have to like testify.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's called I've done that a few times.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like you give your three-minute little speech and it's awkward as heck, and they don't pay attention to you.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: They're on their cell phones and you feel like I didn't make a difference.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: But you know what?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Over time it will get enough people to do it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but those kind of things are what's going to start to make a difference over time.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you just got to make people listen.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: You got to be loud enough and you got to be the squeaky wheel.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: Lord knows I was squeaky enough with all of that.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we just can't allow our passion for our own classroom to become the funding model.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that's really important.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's hard for me to say that because I will keep I will keep fundraising for my classroom.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm a hypocrite in that matter.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think you bring about a really good point because I think then there becomes this additional expectation on the teacher to find their own funds for literally their curriculum.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things I used to really work with teachers on.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: If if we're in a free and public education, then students shouldn't have to buy supplies.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, like in your high school classes, there shouldn't be a supply fee.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: We we shouldn't have to fundraise.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: We those those are our curricular supplies.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we work in an area where those supplies are consumable, and so that needs to be accounted for.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: But without pencil, paper, you know, watercolors, glue, all the things, there is no curriculum.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: You can't, I mean, that's the thing that you know in science, they're provided lab materials in you know, all the other classes, even in in band, they're provided instruments and you know, busing to get to the football games and all of those things.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So why would we think that in the art room our curricular materials are extra?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's all that's always been mind-blowing to me.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think to this like ties in with the advocacy when you're showing the strength of your art program and your principal sees the value in your program, and they start to understand.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: I not that you should have to do that, but I mean, this is this is where we are, right?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so they understand the value of your program, they see what's happening, they get it, and then they start to really understand this is why we need the materials.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Here's how I'm gonna help you do it.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, they can they have the money, they can figure out how to move it around.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I know that about principals.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: They have the money, they can move it around.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to help them understand why they should.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it sucks that we have to do that extra work.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: It does.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not gonna get done otherwise.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think this idea of the hero art teacher, you know, or the hero teacher, it's it's an interesting concept because I I just I was thinking about a conversation I had with a parent last weekend.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes when you talk to people, they just it they're well meaning, but they don't get it.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And even to your point about the kindergartners, was talking about you know, what kids, you know, how much fun they have in art.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, but let's break it down.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, kids learn how to hold their scissors and cut and not hurt themselves in an art class.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Kids learn how to control their pencil and their writing utensils in an art class.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the there's there's you know, just at the very fundamental, very basic pre-K level, that's what we're doing.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I said it gets more, way more rigorous as you go up the ladder, but like that's just just let's to the most basic level.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Starting there.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start there.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I it does.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: I do start to also think about a comment I had made to a colleague teacher on my campus.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, you must, you must just have those kids must just really love to be in art all the time.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, actually, you'd be surprised.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: There are some kids that are that do not want to be there, but yet they're there.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Oh, I never really thought about it that way.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Yeah, there is.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that I guess that kind of little comment kind of makes me think about, you know, and and you mentioned this earlier, um, about the idea of classroom management.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so like I started thinking about, you know, the kids that come into the art room and it becomes their sort of safe space or their, you know, their their place where they can kind of decompress from a lot of things, especially their heavy emotions and their behavioral challenges, and you know, carrying that as the educator sometimes, because you're there, you're trying to be everything for everybody, and it's it's exhausting, especially week after week.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, you know, what mental health support or are class boundaries, you know, class size boundaries, because that that plays a big, a big factor into it.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, do can elementary art teachers kind of need especially for their for their own critical safety, for their own mental safety as well?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, that that gets exhausting after a while.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just how do they how do they go about that or reaching out to that?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Actually at school.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: We will, yeah, we do.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: We need to.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about that.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm also thinking about all the elementary teachers I worked with that were like, you know, one hard boundary is you wait until it's your turn to be at my door with your kids.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I need the five minutes to reset the class.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to reset.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I they don't seem to understand that I am revolving door here.
• 28:34
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I had five minutes to reset.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's all right.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm not gonna have to be other anyway.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, yeah.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I, you know, yes, we see an enormous number of children.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, some of us are K to eight, many schools are kind of going that direction too.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we see a lot of kids and we watch them grow up, and that is amazing.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you build these awesome relationships over them uh over the years with them, and they they tell you things about themselves that they might not tell someone else, or you see it in their artwork.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it becomes this safe space and um and a a place that we shouldn't always be expected to carry the mental health needs of hundreds of children.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we do have to be careful with that because we're not trained um therapists or mental health experts.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to watch ourselves with that.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: We unless we actually have the training for it, right?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Which most of us don't.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we do have to be careful about that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a boundary we have to create for ourselves and know what our school's procedure is should something reach a level that escalates to something higher.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: Your school should have a procedure in place, if not ask for one to be put into place for what should happen if so that we are able to support those students' social and emotional needs.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, other thing that we have to talk about too is like class size, staffing, schedules, counselors, all of that, like that's going to affect how we are able to teach to our students and the everybody's mental stability.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: If we're given a class size that is over 30 and we have students with um extra needs and no support staff or just one support staff, we're not able to simultaneously give every child individualized attention, teach the lesson, manage materials, um, maintain safety, all of that.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that becomes a problem.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: It becomes an issue when you're trying to help a child who's in crisis.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's not a lack of caring, it's just that capacity becomes an issue.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a boundary that has to be understood by your principal, by the school district, by the union, whoever is in charge of helping with um those types of things.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully you have a union that can help control that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I feel like I'm losing track of my thought here.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not that.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm I'm just sitting here thinking this is this is the hard thing because unfortunately, not all states have unions, not all areas have unions.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but it's you've got to find your advocate and your allies.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I used to say to people, you know.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because we work in a right-to-work state where we don't have a union.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's also about who are your advocates, who are your allies, who are your people that can support and stand up, you know, know your counselors and which ones are gonna uh get it and which ones might not get it, you know.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: It takes several years for them to get it.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And know your special eds team really well and you're a five and core person, yeah.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: And understand your IEPs.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're given usually the I as a specialist, you should be given the IEP at a glance.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: Look at it, understand it.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for some kids, it might not apply to your classroom at all.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: So cool.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: It it might just be more of like a regulating in the math room type of thing, like that they need help with and doesn't apply to you at all in the art room.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's good to know.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you're fine, whatever.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, look at them and make sure you understand your students' needs.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and on that note, too, to get us back on track, I guess, with the question is like for training, like there are trainings that are available to you for trauma-informed practices, and you should seek that out.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, those are really, really helpful.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you can learn de-escalation techniques, regulation, inclusive practices, all within that, um, social emotional learning that you can fold within your lessons, and all of that can help those students um who might need additional support.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's really good for all your students, even.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think that that kind of training is something that can be really helpful and um clear about uh where you can step in and where your role might end as um an R teacher slash not therapist.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm sitting here thinking too.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I really wish I'd had some of those mindfulness techniques and SEL techniques when I was teaching just for my own well-being.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like to have that, okay, let's all breathe together moments.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like that would be really great.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't never have that.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it could be helpful.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, Leslie Grace, I'm thinking a little bit uh kind of on the same vein as Matt's question and the idea around student management.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any um tips or tricks for working with uh I have a really good friend that calls them tricky friends.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, those kids that you're constantly having to think, okay, what what do I need to do differently?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because this worked for a little bit and it's not working right now.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and sometimes it's not that they don't love art, it's just different things are going on in their life.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, it sometimes helps to know what's going on in their life.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm in a very small school of very community-oriented, so that I do have that benefit sometimes of knowing what's happening in my children's lives.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but with some of those kids, that might be trickier.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's more about supporting those positive actions when I see positive behaviors happening, really calling out those positive behaviors and um reinforcing the positive as much as possible.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: And when a negative behavior happens, not losing it when I see that negative behavior.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um because what's what what might happen when a negative behavior happens and you lose it on a negative behavior is you're probably gonna see that if you keep losing it, it's not going to change that behavior.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: So uh you have to adjust.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: If that doesn't work, then you have to adjust and find another way.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: So reinforcing the positive, finding if that's working, and then you can kind of gradually release and the student will eventually start doing the right thing.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm finding that's working with a lot of my kids.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also like doing this little thing where uh, like I had this one student, a seventh grader, who just was not working.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um I did message his mom and I just she didn't respond, and I just didn't think anything would come of it.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: He started working the next class, and I was like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, I wanna, I wanna really like like that's the word.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: I like I'm like raising my fist in the air.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I wanna rooftops.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I wanna like monot.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, what's the word?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I can't think of words.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: I want to take advantage of this situation right now.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I have these little notes, and it's like said, I'm proud of you for and like it has these little check boxes, and so I checked one for uh for like I noticed you doing your work or being engaged or something like that.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: I checked it, taped a little piece of candy to it, and snuck it to him.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, he's this like tough seventh grader.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: He probably won't think too much about it.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: But then I heard from his teacher that he had it pinned to his shirt.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, oh my god, that worked! And he's been working in class ever since.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, okay, so these silly little things can make a difference.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: So amazing.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Even the older ones, even the older ones.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I know that we could keep talking, but I I'm wondering if Matt's ready to pitch you the last question.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I mean, yeah, I guess you if you put me up to it, I can.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I want to be I want to be aware of your time and make sure that you know you get all the rest so you can continue to be this amazing teacher.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, our you know this.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: You you kind of know the drill.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've been on here um before, but our our last question is sometimes considered our most difficult question.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what's one thing you would you would want to leave our listeners with, especially as we conclude this conversation?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I don't think it's that difficult.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm not gonna make it long and wordy though.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'll try to keep it brief.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and then there'll be a plug thrown in.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um well I'll start by saying like protect your joy.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um because joy has just been something I feel has been really hard to come by lately.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's something I've been trying to interject in my lessons as much as possible.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's just something I've been trying to find myself as much as possible.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: So protect protect it, protect your joy, and that includes like making those boundaries and understanding where you need to draw the line in that.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then finding your people, find your people.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's really important.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then I think that one other thing I would like to um leave with people is that what we do matters, and we need to remind ourselves of that because we will forget that um quite often.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we just get into the routine of what we do, and sometimes we don't get noticed.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're in our own little worlds.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um what we do matters.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: As elementary art teachers, we are teaching kids to make those choices, to solve problems, like we said, take risks, try again to communicate and to discover things about themselves.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that's so much bigger than that little piece of artwork they take home.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's everything that they're learning is so much bigger.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh my plug, the last thing is all about the elementary division here is that um I want all the elementary art educators to know that when we ask for your feedback, we um at the convention, we we truly do use it.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we go through it and we we look for all your feedback about the sessions, and um, that goes right into the planning for what we're doing for the next convention.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: So for New York City um in March, uh we have um plans that based on what you have given us for feedback, those of you who were there to take the survey.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we did post it on Facebook afterwards.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: So if you saw it there, you had the opportunity to take it there too.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um so um, you know, the call for proposals is out now.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: I posted it on Facebook, it's on the Instagram, and I gave a link to Matt and Laura.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: So um, hopefully that will be shared with you all as well.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um the we're looking for people if you have something in your classroom that could help other elementary art educators.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: I hope that you'll consider sharing it.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the proposals close December 28th for us, and we're just looking for presenters around some of those specific topics that will be um you'll see in the link.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think more than anything, I want you all to know that your voice matters.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: All right, keep telling us what you need, keep sharing what's working in your classroom and keep connected with us.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um awesome.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: That I I don't know what else to say other than thank you.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Leslie.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: So glad that you uh were on here with us.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Happy to do it.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: Glad y'all emailed me.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for reaching out to Leslie Grigis.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just always enjoy her so much.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: She is uh really energetic, but also very wise.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I really from being with her on can and uh the Connected Arts Network.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I was really happy to uh to reconnect with her and be connected from the Connected Arts Network.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate her advocacy for elementary art educators, even though she's K through eight.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um all I can't I can't imagine teaching nine grades, but she does it and does them well.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but just you know, advocacy and and really trying to make sure that whatever she does is supportive of other art teachers.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I really appreciate that about her.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well and then just the level of compassion for other other educators, other art educators that are that might be kind of in that position that she was talking about, to just kind of it's okay then you know to be that kind of consoling person.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I just yeah, to give patience and grace to, you know, understanding that that we're all doing the very best you can.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: So um Matt, yes, I'm curious.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Leslie shared that she had some links to share.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Where might folks find those?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: They can find those on uh the davisart.com site with our uh underneath free resources.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: You'll find all of our podcast episodes plus the resource pages that she was talking about, which has every single it's paired up with every single episode and all of the links that they mention.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so big shout out to our friends at DavisArt because they make lots of good things happen for us and for you, including this free podcast and including school arts.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you are a member of NAEA, you can get school arts for free.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, complimentary of Davis.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a great, great bonus.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then um, you were gonna ask.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna ask something.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, what what do people do if they're like, hey, I got a question, or hey, I've got an idea for a show, or hey, I got an idea for an artist.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Two ways that we'd love to hear from you.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, whether you have ideas or feedback, we're happy to entertain either.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you can reach out to us on Instagram through at creativitypt or uh the creativity dpt at gmail.com through email.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: So either Instagram or email, either way.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we'd love it if you would rate and review the podcast and subscribe to it wherever you listen to it.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: It just helps us keep the ratings going and keep this podcast going.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we really appreciate that.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then most of all, we thank you for what you do, we thank you for listening, and we wish you a creative week ahead.