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Suspect Bryan Kohberger Defense 'Torment' Surviving Murder Victim · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greace Bombshell in the last hours
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Speaker 1: in the case against Brian Coburger, charged in the murder
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Speaker 1: of four beautiful Idaho University students, we learn that one
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Speaker 1: of the crime victims who survived, roommate Bethany Funk, is
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Speaker 1: fighting tooth and nail a subpoena delivered by the defense
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Speaker 1: Brian Coberger's lawyer, trying to force Funk from her home
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Speaker 1: in Reno all the way back to Moscow, Idaho to
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Speaker 1: testify for Brian Coburger.
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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grece. This is Crime Stories.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
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Speaker 1: in Serious X one eleven. First of all, take a
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Speaker 1: listen to our cut. Three seventy eight are friends at ABC.
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Speaker 3: But one of two survivors of the Idaho college murderers
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Speaker 3: fighting back after suspect Brian Coberger's legal team subpoenaed her
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Speaker 3: to testify. The survivor's attorney calling the subpoena improper, saying
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Speaker 3: Coberger's legal team has no authority to summon her for
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Speaker 3: the preliminary hearing. Coburger is charged with murdering four of
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Speaker 3: her friends in the early morning hours of November thirteenth,
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Speaker 3: the victims found on the second and third floor of
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Speaker 3: the home while she was on the first, and now
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Speaker 3: in court documents, Coburger's team claiming the survivor may be
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Speaker 3: a material witness for his case and could possibly provide
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Speaker 3: exculpatory information.
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Speaker 1: I've never heard a bigger croc a bs in my life.
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Speaker 1: That's a technical legal term. Joining me an all star panel.
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Speaker 1: But first let's go to Dale Carson, high profile lawyer
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Speaker 1: out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent Dale Carson. This is
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Speaker 1: totals because this is a preliminary hearing that's going to
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Speaker 1: be held Gen. Twenty six. It is not a jury trial. Therefore,
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Speaker 1: this is just a state putting up a bare bones case.
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Speaker 1: The defense doesn't even have to reply. It's a fishing
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Speaker 1: expedition to force Bethany out of home, away from home,
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Speaker 1: and back to Idaho. It's actually legal terrorism on the
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Speaker 1: crime victim.
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Speaker 4: Well, that's exactly right, Nancy. A preliminary hearing is used
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Speaker 4: typically by the defense to learn what cards the state
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Speaker 4: is holding, and it's a mechanism for doing that. And
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Speaker 4: oddly enough, in Idaho, there is a grand jury that
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Speaker 4: can simply indict him, and yet they have allowed this
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Speaker 4: preliminary hearing to proceed, and to try to bring somebody
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Speaker 4: from one state to another, well, it's against the US Constitution,
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Speaker 4: but there is a uniform act that allows this transfer.
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Speaker 4: But when that transfer recurs, in other words, to bring
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Speaker 4: somebody from another state to this state in a criminal matter,
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Speaker 4: it doesn't cover preliminary hearings. And more importantly, if you're
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Speaker 4: going to do that, you have to explain to the court,
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Speaker 4: the state court where she lives, why you got to
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Speaker 4: have that witness come to a court in Idaho. And
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Speaker 4: that requires explicit information, not just I believe it will
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Speaker 4: be something that will provide evidence for my client.
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Speaker 1: Guys, we are talking about the letty's legal bombshell in
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Speaker 1: the case of the four students murdered in Idaho.
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Speaker 2: At this hour, the.
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Speaker 1: State is still amassing evidence against prime suspect, independant Brian Coberger.
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Speaker 1: He is yet to interplee again with me an all
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Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know right now,
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Speaker 1: straight out to Caitlin Becker, senior investigative reporter for Dailymail
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Speaker 1: dot Com.
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Speaker 2: Caitlyn, explain what's happening right now?
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Speaker 1: Why is the defense terrorizing one of the surviving victims.
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Speaker 1: They keep saying she has material information they could exonerate Coburger,
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Speaker 1: But the reality is her police surg report is still
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Speaker 1: under sealed. Nobody knows what her report says. It was
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Speaker 1: Dylan Mortonson that says she saw this figure clad in
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Speaker 1: black wearing a face mask, not Bethany Funk, So they
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Speaker 1: don't even know what her police report says. Yeah, they're
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Speaker 1: trying to ask her from her family home and make
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Speaker 1: her drive eleven hours to testify in Coburger's defense at
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Speaker 1: a preliminary hearing where the defense doesn't even put up
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Speaker 1: a case.
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Speaker 5: That's exactly right, Nancy, And up until this point, because
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Speaker 5: as you said, Bethany's police report is still under sealed.
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Speaker 5: So I don't believe Coburger's team. I have no idea
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Speaker 5: they've even seen it. But what his attorneys said in
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Speaker 5: the paperwork for that's the teenage. Like you said, they
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Speaker 5: believe she has material information that could be potentially a tory.
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Speaker 5: They specifically want her to testify about what she saw
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Speaker 5: and heard that night and insinuate that this could potentially
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Speaker 5: clear his name. Now, up until this point, we have
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Speaker 5: all believed that Bephany was found asleep and slept.
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Speaker 4: Through the whole ordeal.
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Speaker 5: So the only thing that I can speculate is that
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Speaker 5: maybe Brian Cooberker himself knows something that she knows from
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Speaker 5: that night which puts him, in my mind, at the
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Speaker 5: scene of the crime. So I don't know how that
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Speaker 5: would help her.
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Speaker 2: At the very best.
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Speaker 1: At the very best, she may be able to corroborate
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Speaker 1: something Dylan Mortensen told her, which would be hearsay and
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Speaker 1: disallowable in court. By all accounts, we believe this surviving
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Speaker 1: witness slept through the entire murder.
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Speaker 2: Guys, what's happening?
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut three nine two are
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Speaker 1: our friends at Live now from Fox.
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Speaker 6: It sounds like the defense ves that the surviving roommate
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Speaker 6: has information which tends to exculpate or indicate that perhaps
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Speaker 6: Coburger is not the correct suspect, and they want to
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Speaker 6: call him to have the judge evaluate this testimony and
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Speaker 6: consideration for how the case should move forward.
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Speaker 2: I'm not sure there's any real legal.
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Speaker 6: Way that she can prevent the defense from subpoenaing.
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Speaker 7: Her and calling her as a witness.
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Speaker 6: It may be that the court instead takes steps to
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Speaker 6: protect what she has to say and her face during
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Speaker 6: the testimony.
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Speaker 1: That's completely bess ackwards. That is true for a jury trial.
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Speaker 1: That is not true for a preliminary hearing. Let me explain,
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Speaker 1: a preliminary hearing is very simply a bear bones hearing.
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Speaker 2: For the state.
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Speaker 1: The prosecution puts up just enough evidence for the judge
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Speaker 1: to say, oh, you know what, there's a.
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Speaker 2: Question of fact.
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Speaker 1: DNA was found at the scene on a knife sheath.
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Speaker 1: It matches Brian Coburger. Coburger is planned not guilty, So
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Speaker 1: that's a question of fact. Is the DNA real? Has
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Speaker 1: it been contaminated? Is Coburger not guilty? That's the question
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Speaker 1: for a jury. Therefore, I will send this on to
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Speaker 1: Superior Court and there will be a jury plug a
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Speaker 1: jury trial. That's what a preliminary is. It can be
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Speaker 1: replaced in some jurisdiction.
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Speaker 2: It's not necessarily Idaho.
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Speaker 1: With a grand jury where the defense is not even present.
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Speaker 1: It's just a charging mechanism. This is not a finding
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Speaker 1: of guilt or innocence. And let me go straight out
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Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, director and founder of the Cold Case
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Speaker 1: Research Institute and Strava hit podcast Zone seven. Cheryl McCollum
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Speaker 1: I've dealt with so many crime victims. Do you know
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Speaker 1: what it does to them to have to testify and
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Speaker 1: face the defendant on the stand.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Let me tell you something.
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Speaker 8: How do you invoke reasonable doubt to the court of
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Speaker 8: public opinion before a trial or before you call your
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Speaker 8: first witness. They just did it. This is a stunt.
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Speaker 8: This is an absolute risky move on their part, and
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Speaker 8: I think it's going to blow up in their faith.
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Speaker 2: Well, I've got the.
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Speaker 1: Emotion right here in front of me, and the first
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Speaker 1: thing I'd like to point out is that it.
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Speaker 2: Is full of errors.
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Speaker 1: They can't even spell the victim's name correctly throughout.
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Speaker 2: They misspell her name.
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Speaker 1: So that's not giving me a whole lot of confidence
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Speaker 1: in the defense attorney. And not only that, back to you,
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Speaker 1: Del Carson. Del Carson is joining us defense attorney out
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Speaker 1: of Jacksonville, Dell. They can't even spell the victim's name correctly,
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Speaker 1: number one, number two. In order to make a subpoena
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Speaker 1: like this work, it's an out of your diction subpoena.
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Speaker 1: You have to go through a process called domestication. The
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Speaker 1: Idaho judge has to send the subpoena or allow it
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Speaker 1: to be sent to Reno, Nevada. There has to be
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Speaker 1: a hearing to prove Bethany Funk has material to witness testimony.
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Speaker 2: None of that has been done.
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Speaker 1: Also, del Carson, I've researched the law on both Idaho
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Speaker 1: and Nevada. There is no legal precedent to support a
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Speaker 1: witness in a criminal matter returning all the way to
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Speaker 1: another jurisdiction for a preliminary hearing, not a jury trial
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Speaker 1: for the defense, that's.
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Speaker 2: Not a thing.
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Speaker 4: No, you're absolutely right, and you know it is unbelievable
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Speaker 4: to me, frankly, that probable cause was already determined when
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Speaker 4: the arrest warrant was issued for Coberger. That's the probable
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Speaker 4: cause warrant, and he was arrested, and now we're having
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Speaker 4: another probable cause hearing. I don't understand the system that
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Speaker 4: would allow that when a grand jury can secretly indict
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Speaker 4: him and avoid all of this, and it's not a
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Speaker 4: choice that the defense can make. And they were supposed
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Speaker 4: to make it lea within fourteen days and that didn't happen.
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Speaker 4: So something's going on here, and it's an effort, as
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Speaker 4: Cheryl Magic Cheryl says, to divert attention from the realities
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Speaker 4: and the realities are that DNA is connected with the crime.
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Speaker 4: It demonstrates conclusively in my mind that he was certainly
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Speaker 4: there and life he participated in it. Given all the
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Speaker 4: other factors, his effort to flee, his effort to hide evidence,
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Speaker 4: to clean his car, to do all of those things
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Speaker 4: are consistent with someone who's guilty of the crime.
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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, I want to go to
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Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnat guys, director of the Cole Case Foundation, former
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Speaker 1: homicide detective, host of a YouTube channel, The Interview Room.
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Speaker 1: Chris mcdonna, you have been over and over and over
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Speaker 1: all accessible areas of the scene.
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Speaker 2: This is a stunt. This is a stunt to.
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Speaker 1: Terrorize and torture one of the remaining surviving victims from
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Speaker 1: that night. You understand the bloody, horrific crime scene left behind,
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Speaker 1: and now this tormenting a crime victim and doing it
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Speaker 1: through legal means. I don't know that much about this lawyer.
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Speaker 1: I've got a brief right here. Anne C.
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Speaker 2: Taylor, public defender.
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Speaker 1: I understood she was representing family of one of the
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Speaker 1: victims and then dump them to represent Brian Coburger. I
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Speaker 1: guess it was more money and more pr for her.
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Speaker 1: But that said her emotion, she can't even spell the
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Speaker 1: victim's name correctly. And this is a stunt to terrorize
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Speaker 1: this victim. What do you make of it after what
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Speaker 1: you know of that crime scene?
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Speaker 9: One thousand percent that this is a stunt, Nancy, And
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Speaker 9: I agree with Dale Enscheril that this is trying to
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Speaker 9: pull a legal maneuver to try this case in the
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Speaker 9: court of public opinion. And I find it really interesting
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Speaker 9: now that there have been two motions utilized to you know,
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Speaker 9: put this conversation into the public's ear around the gaggler.
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Speaker 9: So I also think this is a slap in the
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Speaker 9: face to the judge.
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Speaker 1: Well, the judge signed it. The judge right signed it.
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Speaker 1: So that makes me question the judge as well, because
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Speaker 1: the hearing that was card under the law was not held.
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Speaker 1: Here is the order that the judge signed. She didn't
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Speaker 1: just receive it. She signed off on the subpoena to
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Speaker 1: force Bethany Funk back to the Saint to testify for
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Speaker 1: the defense.
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Speaker 2: And I'm stunned. What more do we know, Caitlin Becker.
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Speaker 5: Well, we know that Bethany Funk and her attorneys are
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Speaker 5: don't want to.
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Speaker 1: Do there, Megan Marshall. That's the judge's name, Megan Marshall.
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Speaker 1: I wonder how long she's been on the bench. Go ahead,
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Kaitlin Noble.
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Speaker 5: We know that Bethany's own attorneys are trying to fight
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Speaker 5: this sat and essentually a lot of the things that
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Speaker 5: you guys have already said, they're trying to quash this.
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Speaker 1: Hey, you just said something really important to Kaitlin Becker
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Speaker 1: from Daily Mail, and thank you her own attorneys. She
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Speaker 1: had to go out and pay good money, probably a
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Speaker 1: lot of money to a lawyer to fight this subpoena,
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Speaker 1: this our of state subpoena. I'm thinking through everything, you know,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist, medical examiner, Lucky for US detective,
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Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Dupree, Let's think this through.
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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the early morning that Bethany Funk
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Speaker 1: and Dylan Mortenson wake up. Everything's quiet in the house.
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Speaker 1: Somebody's been calling and they can't get hold of the roommates.
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Speaker 1: So I assume that Bethany and Dylan went out and
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Speaker 1: tried to get the roommates and they come upon the
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Speaker 1: crime scene four roommates repeatedly stabbed, and they see their
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Speaker 1: friends dead. They are probably dealing with Sir Vibr's guilt,
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Speaker 1: which I'm going to address the doctor Joni Johnston, But explain,
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Speaker 1: doctor Dupree, what these two girls very likely woke up to.
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Speaker 10: That morning, Nancy. A stabbing or Sharpfort's injury crime scene
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Speaker 10: is always very traumatic and very bloody, and I'm sure
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Speaker 10: that this was a terrifying event. Finding their friends, someone
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Speaker 10: that they knew so closely in this kind of a state,
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Speaker 10: it would have been devastating.
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Speaker 1: Can you describe the wounds that these four victims suffered,
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Speaker 1: these young, beautiful University Idaho victims.
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Speaker 10: Yes, most of them were stab wounds. There were some
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Speaker 10: what we call slash wounds. One of the victims I
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Speaker 10: believe had defensive ones even and again Sharpforce's injuries are painful,
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Speaker 10: There is a lot of blood. It just would have
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Speaker 10: been a horrific scene to walk in on for anybody.
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Speaker 10: I think even the investigators you know, had talked about
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Speaker 10: what a horrific sing this one, and so to find
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Speaker 10: someone you know and friends, it just would have been
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Speaker 10: devastating to the young adults.
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Speaker 1: Chris McDonough and Ela Carson Cheryl McCollum. Also, I want
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Speaker 1: you to weigh in on how different a murder scene
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Speaker 1: is in real life than it is on.
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Speaker 2: TV, even slasher movies.
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Speaker 1: It's you know, Cheryl McCollum, You and I have been
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Speaker 1: to a lot of homicide scenes together, and I have
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Speaker 1: seen grown men walk outside and vomit. And that's after
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Speaker 1: a shooting, a single shot murder much less. We're four
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Speaker 1: young people that these two witnesses know intimately, they're very
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Speaker 1: dear friends, they live together, go in and they have
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Speaker 1: been slashed dead, multiple stab wounds. Explain, Cheryl, how different
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Speaker 1: in real life is it from what people are conditioned
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Speaker 1: to believe from movies and TV.
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Speaker 8: Well, let's just talk facts. Eye witnesses oftentimes get critical
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Speaker 8: things wrong because of the trauma, the shock, the just
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Speaker 8: denial of what is actually occurring. So when you combine
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Speaker 8: all of those things, just massive fear. All of us
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Speaker 8: have experienced, even in a fleeting second, being so scared.
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Speaker 8: We like, look in your home and somebody pops up
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Speaker 8: you didn't know was there and kind of scares you.
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Speaker 8: For a split second, your whole body reacts. Your entire
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Speaker 8: body just jerks away of what you think could be danger.
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Speaker 8: What they experienced in that moment Nancy is so unbelievable.
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Speaker 8: I don't know that they have processed it completely now.
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Speaker 8: And that's why I'm telling you. You can call miss
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Speaker 8: Funk if you want to, but if she were my kind,
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Speaker 8: it'd be the biggest mistake you ever made.
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Speaker 4: If I was a lawyer, you.
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Speaker 1: Are darn right in the famous words we've heard so
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Speaker 1: many times, be careful what you ask, my dear for
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Speaker 1: you will surely get it, amen. I think the defense
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Speaker 1: is banking on the fact they believe that Dylan Mortenson
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Speaker 1: and Bethany Funk not only saw the killer, but cannot
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Speaker 1: identify Brian Coburger as the killer. The first thing I
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Speaker 1: would do when that happen, as the prosecutor, would have
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Speaker 1: him stand up and walk in front of the jury
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Speaker 1: and stand up and turn to the side, approach the
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Speaker 1: victim on the stand and let her say, yeah, that's
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Speaker 1: about the right size. That's the right size, those are
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Speaker 1: the right eyebrows, that's the right hair, that's the right
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Speaker 1: skin tone. Yeah, that looks like him. Of course he
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Speaker 1: had on a face mask, but he fits the description
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Speaker 1: of the killer.
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Speaker 2: Oh man. I would put it right up their tailpipe.
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Speaker 4: You asked about the crime scene.
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Speaker 2: Is this Dale Carson, go ahead?
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Speaker 4: It is. The eventeration of an individual victim is substantial.
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Speaker 4: They smell in the air that you can never shake
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Speaker 4: out of your head later and you remember it years
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Speaker 4: years later, and there's there's blood everywhere on the floor.
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Speaker 4: You end up walking in it in order to check
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Speaker 4: the victim to determine whether or not they're still alive.
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Speaker 4: And people don't see dead bodies regularly, not in that condition,
19:22
Speaker 4: so there's a process of denial you go through. You
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Speaker 4: think you might be in a dream to see that.
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Speaker 4: And victims often report the fact that they are physically
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Speaker 4: ill after they see things like that. And this isn't
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Speaker 4: one victim, this is four victims. So you have a
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Speaker 4: magnification exponentially of the pain and suffering. And remember this
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Speaker 4: really important for the jury. These individuals and a visceration killings.
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Speaker 4: They suffer, there's a pain, there's it's dark. Suddenly someone
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Speaker 4: comes out of the dark and does this. You're stunned.
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Speaker 4: All of those factors indicate that it's a cruel killing,
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Speaker 4: which imported at least adds to the impact of the
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Speaker 4: charge against someone. So he's going to get charged as seriously,
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Speaker 4: and when the jury hears how he affected the killings,
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Speaker 4: it's going to magnify his sentence, you know.
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Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, I told this story yesterday, and I don't
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Speaker 1: like telling it because it's painful. But I did not
20:28
Speaker 1: want to see my fiance in the casket. I didn't
20:32
Speaker 1: want to remember him that way. And of course they
20:37
Speaker 1: had done all they could to cover up the bullet
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Speaker 1: wounds to his head, his neck, and his back, but
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Speaker 1: at a distance. When I first walked into the funeral home,
20:49
Speaker 1: instinct made me look into the area where Keith's body
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Speaker 1: was at the front of the chapel, and I only.
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Speaker 2: Saw a sliver a profile of his face above the
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Speaker 2: casket edge, and I passed out.
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Speaker 1: I remember it like it was yesterday, and I don't
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Speaker 1: like remembering it. So I can only imagine, Chris mcdonna,
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Speaker 1: what these two girls saw when they saw their friends
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Speaker 1: stabbed multiple times, sly stabbed dead from bleeding out. The
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Speaker 1: smell hanging in the air, it's awful, the blood now
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Speaker 1: sticky on the floor. I mean, that's something you never forget.
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Speaker 1: And there's nothing else like seeing and smelling that.
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Speaker 11: Chris mcdona Nancy, I mean, you're just your comments alone
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Speaker 11: are so powerful to listen to. And it's one of
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Speaker 11: these events where all of us in this panel this
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Speaker 11: morning discussing this always remembers that moment where you get
22:08
Speaker 11: the information overload right and everything slows down. It's almost
22:15
Speaker 11: as if you're living.
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Speaker 9: In the twilight zone for a little bit, and now
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Speaker 9: super imposed that on a child who's a young girl
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Speaker 9: who's at college and going up those stairs and running
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Speaker 9: into you know, all of this mass evil, the behavior
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Speaker 9: that they're witnessing, you know, the cast off from the
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Speaker 9: from the knife. The victims may or may not, you know,
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Speaker 9: positioning in certain places and thinking to themselves, you know
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Speaker 9: where am I?
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Speaker 4: What am I?
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Speaker 9: And I can I can assure you because I've been
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Speaker 9: in that scenario so many times. The worst part of
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Speaker 9: homicide investigation and is that initial observation of that crime scene.
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Speaker 9: And we heard it from the chief of the Moscow
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Speaker 9: officers that were first on scene. They were seeking counseling
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Speaker 9: post that witness.
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Speaker 1: Speaking of what victims by the way, you completely write
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Speaker 1: to both of you, Dale and Chris and also Cheryl
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Speaker 1: of course, guys, I want you to hear it from
23:31
Speaker 1: the horse's mouth. I want you to hear our friend,
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Speaker 1: our colleague, Mark Class, victims rights crusader, after the kidnap, rape,
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Speaker 1: and murder of his little girl Polly, he has devoted
23:47
Speaker 1: his life to finding missing children and solving unsolved Thomas Sides.
23:54
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut three eight nine.
23:57
Speaker 12: The young lady and I'm sure she's a resilient young
24:01
Speaker 12: lady and this will obviously be a setback to her
24:05
Speaker 12: psychologically and spiritually, There's no question about that. However, with
24:13
Speaker 12: the right moves, she should be able to recover her life.
24:19
Speaker 12: And when I say the right moves, I'm suggesting that
24:23
Speaker 12: she probably could use some expert counseling. And the trick
24:27
Speaker 12: there is finding the right person or a counselor the
24:32
Speaker 12: person that's had the experience in this type of situation,
24:35
Speaker 12: the person that knows the right moves, and the person
24:38
Speaker 12: that can help move her from being a traumatized victim
24:44
Speaker 12: who's been asked to turn on her friends to the
24:48
Speaker 12: productive and positive thinking individual that she was before this
24:53
Speaker 12: whole horrendous affairs Guarded and.
24:56
Speaker 2: More from Mark Class In our cut three.
24:58
Speaker 12: Nine one, I spoke to one of the girls that
25:02
Speaker 12: was with Paulie when she was kidnapped, because she was
25:05
Speaker 12: in a very similar type of a situation. She had
25:08
Speaker 12: to testify as a child in the courtroom where the
25:13
Speaker 12: killer was sitting, and she said that it was really
25:17
Speaker 12: just kind of an odd situation, that she didn't want
25:21
Speaker 12: to look at him, but she did want to see him,
25:25
Speaker 12: so she kept stealing grasses at him as she was testifying,
25:32
Speaker 12: and that in the final analysis, she said he was
25:35
Speaker 12: looking down the entire time. So whereas this guy is
25:39
Speaker 12: able to come into a room and terrorize little girls
25:43
Speaker 12: once he's surrounded in a different kind of a situation,
25:48
Speaker 12: once it's in a different kind of a situation, a
25:50
Speaker 12: courtroom situation, he didn't even have the ability to look
25:55
Speaker 12: up at the little girl who was so courageously testify
26:00
Speaker 12: line in his presence against him.
26:03
Speaker 1: I had the same experience when I came off the
26:05
Speaker 1: witness stand in my fiancee case murder trial. I walked
26:10
Speaker 1: past the defense attorney's table and they all look down,
26:15
Speaker 1: and then I looked at the defendant, who also looked down,
26:18
Speaker 1: actually looked at him first. They couldn't even look up
26:21
Speaker 1: at me. I want to go to a special guest
26:24
Speaker 1: joining us doctor Joni Johnston, forensic psychologist. Also she's the
26:30
Speaker 1: author of Serial Killers one hundred and one questions true
26:35
Speaker 1: crime fans Ask, and you can find her at doctor
26:38
Speaker 1: Joni Johnson dot com. Doctor Jony, thank you for being
26:43
Speaker 1: with us. Happy to question to you, what is survivor's guilt.
26:49
Speaker 7: Surviver's guilt is kind of an irrational feeling. And I
26:52
Speaker 7: say irrational because it almost invariably happens with somebody had
26:55
Speaker 7: no control over situation and survived something that our friend
26:59
Speaker 7: or a loved one didn't, and there's just this constant
27:02
Speaker 7: sense of guilt and second guessing and pain around you know,
27:09
Speaker 7: why did I get to survive? Why did my friend
27:12
Speaker 7: or my loved one not Why didn't I help? Why
27:14
Speaker 7: couldn't I do something? Why didn't I do something? And
27:17
Speaker 7: it can be very very, you know, complicating in terms
27:20
Speaker 7: of getting past that. In addition to the trauma of
27:23
Speaker 7: all the things you've described, your other panel members have
27:26
Speaker 7: described just coming on a scene like that, which just
27:29
Speaker 7: can be so complicating.
27:30
Speaker 1: And you know what else, doctor Jonie Johnston, and that's
27:33
Speaker 1: Johnston with a T, Doctor Jony, this these feelings follow
27:38
Speaker 1: you for the rest of your life. Now, I agree
27:42
Speaker 1: with everything Mark Klass said about getting counseling for this
27:48
Speaker 1: girl Bethany Funk and roommate Dylan Mortenson. But the truth is,
27:54
Speaker 1: and let me know when I get Cheryl mccollumb back,
27:56
Speaker 1: because she can vouch for this, the truth is that
28:01
Speaker 1: as a crime victim, you are haunted from that point forward.
28:05
Speaker 2: It really changes who you are.
28:08
Speaker 1: I've had people tell me, which I don't understand, that
28:11
Speaker 1: my personality before case murder is entirely different than what
28:15
Speaker 1: it is now.
28:16
Speaker 2: I don't know what they're talking about. But it changes you.
28:20
Speaker 2: It changes the way you see the world. Doctor.
28:23
Speaker 7: I completely agree with you, Nancy. There is no way
28:27
Speaker 7: anyone who goes through an experience like you've gone through,
28:31
Speaker 7: or these young surviving women have gone through, who are
28:34
Speaker 7: going to be the same. It is a life changing event.
28:38
Speaker 7: It doesn't mean your life is over, that you can't
28:40
Speaker 7: be happy again, that you can't be a productive member
28:42
Speaker 7: of society, that you can't find a way to use
28:45
Speaker 7: all that pain for good, but you are going they
28:48
Speaker 7: are not going to be the same young women they
28:50
Speaker 7: were before that.
29:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Cheryl McCollum is with me.
29:09
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute founder and director. You can find
29:13
Speaker 1: her at Coldcasecrimes dot org or on her brand new
29:16
Speaker 1: podcast Zone seven.
29:19
Speaker 2: Cheryl, we have both dealt with so.
29:21
Speaker 1: Many violent crime victims and what they go through in
29:27
Speaker 1: the aftermath of the crime if they live to tell it.
29:31
Speaker 1: And these two girls, I mean, remember, Cheryl, they kept
29:36
Speaker 1: the fact that Dylan Mortenson had actually seen the killer
29:40
Speaker 1: a secret copstead for so long until they could arrest
29:45
Speaker 1: Coburger and put him in jail so he would not
29:49
Speaker 1: be timpted to come back and murder her and Bethany Funk.
29:55
Speaker 2: That's what we're talking about.
29:57
Speaker 1: And now they want this girl and some ridicul pr
30:00
Speaker 1: stunt for some fishing expedition to find out what she
30:04
Speaker 1: may or may not know, to come all the way
30:07
Speaker 1: back essentially to the scene of the crime.
30:09
Speaker 8: You know, I think about dealing a lot. And that
30:11
Speaker 8: first statement that she made when she said she thought
30:14
Speaker 8: what she was hearing was Kaylee playing with her dog Murphy,
30:19
Speaker 8: and then afterwards she had the realization of what she
30:23
Speaker 8: was actually hearing were her friends being murdered.
30:27
Speaker 2: She heard it.
30:29
Speaker 8: She will never get that out of her head. And Nancy,
30:33
Speaker 8: not only is this stunt going to blow up in
30:36
Speaker 8: their face. They have not counted on mama's and daddy's
30:42
Speaker 8: and friends. Those are the jurors that they are now,
30:46
Speaker 8: I think ticking off before they've ever been slated to
30:49
Speaker 8: see it. And when you think of just this instinct
30:53
Speaker 8: to protect what's your a mama, everything else goes out
30:58
Speaker 8: the window. I was in the grocery store the other
31:01
Speaker 8: day and I heard this little voice call for mama, mama. Now,
31:05
Speaker 8: as you know, I've got two twenty somethings now that
31:09
Speaker 8: are my children. But I looked, almost instinctively, like who
31:12
Speaker 8: needs me?
31:13
Speaker 2: Who needs help?
31:14
Speaker 8: That wasn't my child, But I couldn't help myself.
31:17
Speaker 2: Oh, Cheryl, I'm telling you. I had to fly to
31:20
Speaker 2: Corpus Christy.
31:21
Speaker 1: The other day to speak to help support a women's
31:24
Speaker 1: shelter at a group called Purple Door. There was a
31:28
Speaker 1: child on the plane, and this screaming all that doesn't
31:31
Speaker 1: bother me at all on a plane because I empathize
31:35
Speaker 1: with those parents.
31:36
Speaker 2: Every time that child cried.
31:38
Speaker 1: Literally my skin it crawled because I felt that you
31:43
Speaker 1: felt an instant to go help the baby, right, And.
31:46
Speaker 8: That's what I'm talking about. We have an instinct to
31:49
Speaker 8: protect Dylan and befany period.
31:52
Speaker 1: You know, another thing, and let me throw this to
31:55
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker. Oh, Caitlyn, I'm gonna circle back to you
31:58
Speaker 1: about the two surviving victims getting those tattoos in honor
32:03
Speaker 1: the four slain students. Doctor Jonnie Johnson joining me forensic psychologist.
32:09
Speaker 1: It's not just the survivor's guilt in the sense that
32:12
Speaker 1: I lived and they didn't, but also apparently Dylan Mortenson heard,
32:19
Speaker 1: She didn't realize what she was hearing, but heard the murders,
32:22
Speaker 1: and she saw who I believed to be Coburger at
32:27
Speaker 1: the time, you know, four o'clock in the morning. She
32:29
Speaker 1: probably had a couple of drinks. She's like, oh whatever,
32:32
Speaker 1: and went back to sleep. More guilt. She couldn't didn't
32:37
Speaker 1: know what had happened. She didn't understand that she should
32:41
Speaker 1: call nine one one immediately. But that's going to go
32:44
Speaker 1: with her, that sack of rocks on her back from
32:47
Speaker 1: now on. What if I had called earlier, could I
32:51
Speaker 1: have saved their lives? What a would could have should
32:54
Speaker 1: have is gonna haunt her like a demon from hell.
32:58
Speaker 7: It is going to be difficult, and obviously in the
33:00
Speaker 7: situations like this come up where people are trying to
33:02
Speaker 7: get her to testify, you know, it's just going to
33:05
Speaker 7: prolong that. And I agree with everybody on this panel
33:09
Speaker 7: that it is difficult for me to see how this
33:11
Speaker 7: is going to help the defense because it's not just
33:14
Speaker 7: the fact. I mean, I've got two girls in college,
33:16
Speaker 7: though it is very close to me. But to think
33:19
Speaker 7: about somebody going through that, an innocent college student and
33:23
Speaker 7: then experiencing that, losing her friends, hearing all of that,
33:27
Speaker 7: seeing all of that, and now asking her to testify,
33:31
Speaker 7: and the defense calling her is just it's kind of
33:35
Speaker 7: hard to get your head around.
33:36
Speaker 1: You know, when you said you had two children, and
33:38
Speaker 1: Cheryl said about her children, Alan, just pause, just briefly
33:42
Speaker 1: and think everyone that commented and prayed for my son
33:51
Speaker 1: who had a horrible blow to the head at school
33:55
Speaker 1: at track practice accident, and he has been so from
34:00
Speaker 1: a stage A level three concussion. And I've been really
34:04
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by all the love and the prayers that have
34:08
Speaker 1: poured out from all of you, and i just want
34:11
Speaker 1: to say thank you. And I'm thinking about this girl's
34:15
Speaker 1: parents and the thought my dad and mom drove me
34:20
Speaker 1: to Keith murder trial an hour and a half every
34:22
Speaker 1: morning of the trial and drove me home, and I
34:25
Speaker 1: wonder what they were going through as I sat in
34:27
Speaker 1: the backseat and cried. This stunt, Caitlin Becker joining me
34:34
Speaker 1: senior reporter, dailymail dot Com is so twisted and cruel.
34:39
Speaker 1: But the defense may believe they've got a leg to
34:43
Speaker 1: stand on. Take a listener our cut three seven nine
34:46
Speaker 1: our friends at GMA.
34:48
Speaker 13: It seems as though the defense believes that she is
34:50
Speaker 13: information that would directly contradict his being the person who
34:55
Speaker 13: they believe.
34:56
Speaker 2: At the scene of the crime.
34:57
Speaker 3: The defense saying their criminal investigator believed the survivor told
35:01
Speaker 3: police things she heard and things she saw and could
35:05
Speaker 3: offer details that cannot be provided by any other witness.
35:09
Speaker 13: She might have information as to what the person looked like,
35:12
Speaker 13: it might be height, it could be any information that
35:15
Speaker 13: would take him out of the prime line as a suspect.
35:18
Speaker 1: And that right there, Dale Carson, is a legal problem
35:22
Speaker 1: for the defense.
35:22
Speaker 2: She might have information.
35:25
Speaker 1: When you out of state subpoenas someone back to the
35:29
Speaker 1: scene of the crime to that jurisdiction, it's because that
35:33
Speaker 1: witness has vital and material information, not because they might
35:38
Speaker 1: She may she might maybe No, that is a legal threshold,
35:44
Speaker 1: and certainly not for a preliminary hearing.
35:46
Speaker 4: The Nevada Court is gonna hear precisely, and it's not
35:51
Speaker 4: subject to the gag order. They're going to hear precisely
35:55
Speaker 4: what it is that they think she can provide. It
35:58
Speaker 4: may be simply a timeline as she or her remembrance
36:02
Speaker 4: contrasts some way with the other survivor's remembrance of what happened,
36:09
Speaker 4: But ultimately we're going to find out whether or not
36:12
Speaker 4: there's teeth to the allegation that there's something exculpatory, And
36:16
Speaker 4: what exculpatory means is that he's not the suspect and
36:20
Speaker 4: said though the actual committer of the crime, and that's
36:25
Speaker 4: not supported by any of the extrinsic evidence that we're
36:29
Speaker 4: aware of today.
36:30
Speaker 2: Cayleb Becker with Nancy, who's that Cheryl jump in This.
36:34
Speaker 8: Stunt has now turned into a joke, the fact that
36:37
Speaker 8: you think that child has got such a hell of
36:39
Speaker 8: a testimony that she's going to be able to undo
36:41
Speaker 8: that he had a victim's ID in his possession, that
36:45
Speaker 8: he's got DNA on the knife, the sheath of the knife,
36:50
Speaker 8: all the cell phone pings, that his freaking cars on video. Well, honey,
36:54
Speaker 8: miss Funk, that must be some unbelievable testimony. And let
36:59
Speaker 8: me just say this, I do not care what they
37:01
Speaker 8: think that child could possibly say to undo this. In
37:05
Speaker 8: the beginning, she had no idea what she was seeing
37:08
Speaker 8: or hearing. Even if she described a man that turned
37:12
Speaker 8: out to be the door dash driver, this is a joke.
37:15
Speaker 1: Well, again, that was Dylan Mortenson, not Bethany Fank, who
37:19
Speaker 1: they're trying to subpoena.
37:20
Speaker 2: But we don't know what she said exactly.
37:22
Speaker 1: We don't know because it's sealed, and a preliminary hearing
37:26
Speaker 1: is just a bear of bones hearing to find out
37:28
Speaker 1: if there's enough evidence for it to go to trial.
37:31
Speaker 1: It's a safety precaution buffer for the defense.
37:37
Speaker 2: Caitlin Becker very quickly, is.
37:39
Speaker 1: It true that the surviving victims got tattoos in honor
37:44
Speaker 1: of the murdered victims?
37:47
Speaker 5: They did, Nancy. They both got matching tattoos of angel wings,
37:54
Speaker 5: which are the theme is the same tattoo that one
37:56
Speaker 5: of the victims, Maddie Mogan, had on her arm. They
38:00
Speaker 5: got the same angel wings and in between them the
38:02
Speaker 5: initials of all for the comp Well.
38:05
Speaker 1: I predict this legal stunt is going to backfire.
38:10
Speaker 2: We wait as justice of Fulse. Good Bye friend,