Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Interview with Founder of Fudo-An, Aislynn van Clief,

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Interview with Founder of Fudo-An, Aislynn van Clief, · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty March Podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan, This is Michael Hosunjin.
0:04
Hello. Hello.
0:05
And we're the cofounders of Sanko March Products.
0:08
Yeah. So we launched this podcast to
0:10
discuss our learning journey, much of share startup stories
0:13
and interview experts. And today we're happy to have an
0:17
old friend joining us, Icelyn Van Cleef.
0:20
Welcome, Icelyn. Hi, thanks for having me.
0:23
Eisen is an old friend, very special guest and former
0:26
colleague, I guess Former roommate even in New York City.
0:31
So many titles. Yeah, so many titles.
0:35
Many names. And yeah, so Eisen was a early,
0:42
early member of the Tea Institute at Penn State or
0:45
Asanke student for over a decade, I believe.
0:48
Now, I think out of anyone at the Penn State Tea Institute,
0:52
you've been the longest running student ever, I think.
0:57
Don't eat. That record?
1:01
And then we were colleagues for a couple years, including in New
1:04
York, where we were working at the same startup in food tech
1:09
and AI. And then Eisen went on to found
1:12
her own matcha brand, Foodowan, based in Denver, Co, around
1:18
matcha and Wellness and creating different events and macho
1:23
awareness, especially around tea ceremony.
1:26
And you now work as a product designer.
1:29
So thanks so much for coming on. Yeah, thank you.
1:31
I'm so excited to chat more about Matcha.
1:36
So can you talk a little bit about your tea background at the
1:39
Tea Institute and your Ersenge practice?
1:42
Yeah. So I was part of the group that
1:47
kind of was there in the beginning of the Tea Institute
1:50
at Penn State, which was an interdisciplinary Research
1:54
Institute dedicated to the study and preservation of Chinese,
1:57
Japanese and Korean tea ceremony.
1:59
And there you may remember we studied tea and numerous other
2:03
things not sport related at first.
2:11
So yeah, I it all started with the Chinese ceremony, gung
2:15
fucha, but I actually leaned more into chanoyu, or the
2:20
Japanese tea ceremony. And that was 13 years ago with
2:24
my current teacher, Drew Hansen Sensei, who I still study with
2:28
to this day. So long what is how has how has
2:31
that journey been? That's I can't even because I
2:34
was a student for two, maybe three years.
2:37
How is that was the feeling of the, I guess acquiring that new
2:42
knowledge and all the licenses etcetera.
2:46
How has that been? How's it felt?
2:49
It's definitely one of the longest things I've ever studied
2:53
and had ongoing in my life for as long as it has.
2:57
And I feel like it has followed me through my life, which is
3:01
really cool. It's it's cool to, I think carry
3:03
something with you for that long and always feel like you're
3:07
learning something new and still humbled at the same time because
3:12
I still have a long way to go. So it's it's definitely a life
3:15
practice. Yeah, actually when you put it
3:17
that way, it's, it's interesting because like most people don't
3:21
study something that long and basically like you're committing
3:25
to basically be a student for what, at least 20 years before
3:29
you can teach usually or something.
3:31
Kids. Some kids is 30.
3:32
At least. Yeah, yeah, totally.
3:37
It was very common for a lot of traditional Japanese art forms.
3:42
I was practicing Kendall Japanese fencing during college
3:47
and I remember for about two months I'm just learning how to,
3:53
you know, sling the the sword from my head to my waist level
3:59
and just doing that one pass. Over and over, yes.
4:05
Yeah, that's so true. You know, Kenny, the when you
4:09
say kendo, you reminded me that like it's like chado and a lot
4:14
of the Japanese arts to your point is studying the way.
4:18
So, you know, breaking down chado, it's literally 2 parts
4:22
Chaz tea dough is the way, and multiple chados we study, right?
4:27
But studying a doe is more than just reading something out of a
4:31
book, right? It's like a tangible way to
4:33
learn about life. So we carry these things with us
4:37
and we, it's a way to deepen our meditation, our control over our
4:41
mind. You know, the way we look at the
4:43
world even. And I think that's why we're
4:45
taught to always have a beginner's mind.
4:48
You can study this your whole life, and you might never become
4:51
a tea master, you might never teach.
4:52
And it's really just more of a way to live peacefully and
4:56
humbly, I think. And everybody moves at their own
4:58
pace, you know, There's no competition except with
5:01
yourself, which I really like. Wow, that's a great line.
5:04
Yeah, it's. Really not about the the end,
5:07
it's about the journey. Yeah, yeah, I love that.
5:11
What do you think separates people who stay on that path
5:16
versus people who grow like more disinterested in tea ceremony,
5:20
which I'll classify myself as. I love it as an art, but as a
5:24
practitioner, it's I, I realized quickly that my interest was
5:29
much more in the product of matcha itself.
5:32
But how do you view these two like paths of someone who who
5:37
you know, commits to that path and like stays on the way and is
5:42
passionate and is on that journey versus someone who falls
5:47
off? And I'm sure you've seen this
5:48
quite a lot over your own earth and gay practice.
5:51
Yeah, that's a really great question.
5:54
You know, I think it's just like I stopped, not stopped having an
5:59
interest in, but certainly didn't lean into gong fucha as
6:02
much as I could have, right? Like I think that there's
6:05
different aspects that call to you and appeal to you in
6:08
different ways. And I think that it has
6:11
something to offer everybody too, in a way.
6:13
Like there's definitely those who can just appreciate it.
6:16
And at the end of the day, simply just be mindful and calm
6:20
after experiencing one too. I think is like the way that we
6:25
can all participate and appreciate tea, even if it's
6:30
just tasting it, right? Like you love the the matcha and
6:33
the production of the product itself and what one piece of
6:37
what we're enjoying in the ceremony too, right?
6:39
And I think it's really cool to appreciate from all
6:42
perspectives, but also get that deep exposure no matter what,
6:47
you know, like you, you definitely were submerged in it,
6:50
I think, and that's what taught you that you didn't want to go
6:53
that far, but you saw how deep it could go right?
6:56
And understand like, oh, a lot to this beverage, like not just
7:01
drinking it as a shot and and taking it to go.
7:05
There's actually a whole history behind it.
7:08
So I think it's really important for people to have exposure to
7:11
that and then kind of take what they want from there, you know?
7:14
Yeah, that makes sense. I guess it leaves behind
7:17
something for everyone, whether or not, you know, you, you know,
7:22
stay. It's a regular practice in your
7:24
life. Yeah, although a lot of elements
7:27
I like to keep, there's a lot that I think you can learn from
7:30
tea ceremony, even if you consider like appreciate matcha
7:34
as a specialty product or, or even in other things, like I
7:38
always find myself like preheating my coffee cup in the
7:41
morning. Exactly.
7:43
Like exactly taking ceremonial elements, yeah.
7:47
Just gonna add to what you said that I think that the ritual and
7:50
the ceremony is a big part of what people can take from it.
7:54
And even if they drop it, they, you know, have this new
7:57
awareness of just how like an A mundane task can be turned into
8:00
something extraordinary. And I think that that is one of
8:03
the biggest takeaways in in Japanese tea ceremony.
8:06
Yeah, that's such a great framing.
8:10
It's like, I don't know if you compare it to like, I don't
8:13
know, a Michelin star restaurant or something.
8:15
It's just cooking. It's just putting a plate on a
8:19
table. It's just pouring something from
8:22
a bottle into a cup. And the distinction is, like,
8:27
the intention behind it. Yeah.
8:29
And like tea, ceremony really is the highest form of that
8:32
intentionality. Yes, yeah, yes, 100%.
8:36
That's a great way to put. It and there's so many subtle
8:38
views because like in in tea that you learn this as a
8:41
student. But just to give some color for
8:44
any of our listeners that have never attended tea ceremony and
8:47
and I said, I'm sure you can really add to this list and
8:50
you'd be really curious. But the things that I remembered
8:53
were like a host never turns their back to a guest and the
8:59
only time they do is when they carry away the wastewater bowl.
9:04
And like, there's this etiquette around thanking people or
9:09
excusing yourself for going ahead of somebody.
9:14
There's a ritual ceremony with the fuqsa, or the silk cloth,
9:18
where you purify and clean all of the elements in front of your
9:22
guests. I think the intentionality that
9:25
develops or centering around all of these practice really
9:28
transcends beyond tea ceremony. Yeah.
9:32
For anything that happens in your life, you know, you can
9:35
take, you know, these intentionality or this thinking
9:39
as a grain of salt and then kind of apply that to everything.
9:43
It gives it meaning. Exactly.
9:46
So for I get those listeners who have never attended a tea
9:50
ceremony before, maybe describe the process of like a most
9:54
simple to my or a set of tea ceremony procedure to some of
9:58
the more complex. Yeah, I can definitely speak to
10:02
that. If you're ever invited to a tea
10:05
ceremony, be prepared for an event.
10:07
So if you are invited, a tea ceremony is considered the
10:12
ultimate form of hospitality in Japan.
10:15
So you can imagine even the most simple of procedures.
10:19
You have a treat for all five of your senses.
10:22
You have incense. You have a nice, clean, tranquil
10:26
tea room. You have traditional Japanese
10:30
sweet. You have the serving of thinner,
10:32
thick tea. Sometimes both and then in a
10:35
more formal setting, perhaps celebrating a birthday or New
10:39
Year's or something like this. You also have a full kaiseki
10:42
meal. You'll get sake, you get even
10:45
tobacco traditionally. It's really just to give your
10:48
guests the best experience you can.
10:51
Like it just covers all the bases.
10:53
So I think that if you've, if you ever get the opportunity,
10:56
certainly take it and know that it's really about the host
11:01
humbling and giving all that they have for you to have a
11:05
great experience. And, and that like Ryan was
11:08
saying with the host and the guest kind of like having their
11:11
roles to play. It's really about the exchange
11:14
of that intention and that equality of showing you
11:18
appreciate each other in in so many ways throughout the
11:21
ceremony. There's opportunities for that,
11:23
but it's really a beautiful exchange, I think.
11:26
Absolutely. As a guest, what is important to
11:29
know? I find that like walking into
11:31
something like that is intimidating.
11:34
I have been intimidated going into a tea ceremony knowing that
11:38
there's rules and formality. What What are some things that
11:44
are important to know if you get invited or have the opportunity
11:47
to go to Japanese tea ceremony? I think say what you know what
11:52
you don't know, like it's okay. I think today people are very
11:56
open and accepting of that. If they invite you, they want
11:59
you there. They don't care if you're a tea
12:01
person, so to speak. So I think that there are things
12:05
you can do to be polite in a tea room.
12:08
So some of the things I teach in my workshops are like always
12:11
bow, never put your feet in front of you in the space where
12:14
teas being served, you know, basic like Japanese room
12:19
etiquette, like wear socks on the tatami always.
12:23
You know, if you're bowing, I teach the three bows.
12:26
There's there's levels of formality between the host and
12:30
the guest versus a guest in a guest, for example.
12:33
So knowing kind of how to bow in a tea room.
12:36
So that's just kind of some basic Japanese etiquette goes a
12:39
long way in in a tea ceremony setting.
12:42
Makes sense? So relax.
12:45
Enjoy. Relax.
12:46
And enjoy, yes, that is the goal.
12:49
Don't be late. That's another.
12:51
Problem yeah. What are some of the core
12:55
philosophies or stories that you learn about as a tea ceremony
12:59
student? That was the most memorable part
13:02
of my education where all the stories that Like Keiko sensei
13:06
or Koike sensei or Horace and say they always give these
13:11
stories. And I feel like you you hear, I
13:14
was in a Moto sange, which is a different school, but I I
13:17
remember like, you know, walking by Doctor Drew Hanson teaching
13:20
and hearing similar stories or he was giving a lecture and
13:24
similar stories. So what are some of these like
13:27
legends that conveyed like philosophical principles that
13:32
like all new tea ceremony students will definitely hear
13:36
when they attend to ceremony or or learn the the way of tea
13:41
ceremony? Yeah, there are so many
13:43
anecdotes to basically reset your your scale.
13:48
I feel like of what you think, you know.
13:50
So a lot of it is humility at the end of the day and teaching
13:55
why we practice what we practice and that you, you know, no one
13:59
is better than anyone else. And the goal is to simply give
14:03
your guests the best experience and, and work on yourself at the
14:07
same time. And hopefully we, we all leave
14:09
better than we entered, right. So I think that it's important
14:13
to understand one of the first things we learn are the core
14:17
philosophies, the. So there's four pillars of tea
14:20
ceremony that we study and are reminded of constantly through
14:25
these anecdotes, and they tie back to harmony, respect,
14:30
purity, and tranquility. And so there are ways we
14:34
practice these, like creating harmony in the tea room by
14:37
balancing the temperature, the where's we choose, paying
14:41
attention to the seasons. We treat everyone with respect
14:45
in the tea room. It's one of the only places
14:47
without status, without caring who you are, where you've been.
14:52
We center ourselves and prepare the tea with a pure heart,
14:55
giving all we have to the present moment.
14:57
That's the purity aspect. And a lot of other things go
15:01
into that too. Like, you know, we have the Rogi
15:04
gardens that walk the guest through the garden before they
15:09
enter the tea room. And that's a great way to
15:11
separate your mind and create purity in your heart before you
15:15
come. So we all are on the same page
15:18
and and dusting off kind of the, the metaphorical dust of the
15:22
mind, right, to prepare yourself to enter in a pure state.
15:27
And then finally, tranquility. We leave our guests with a
15:30
feeling of tranquility and a peaceful experience living in
15:34
the moment. That's really all we're trying
15:36
to do. And if you do it right, you're
15:38
leaving as the host with the same, if not a greater feeling
15:43
of doing the best you could in that moment.
15:45
And it might sound simple, but we're studying something in the
15:49
tea room and carrying those practices into our everyday
15:53
lives with how we treat ourselves and how we treat
15:56
others. Beautiful.
15:57
Yeah, makes me almost meditative as you describe all of these.
16:05
That's the goal. Yeah, it's already working, even
16:10
in a tea room. I hope Use not abuse.
16:13
Another common phrase in tea ceremony is that it really
16:16
creates a moment in time. Or Ichigo Ichi A.
16:19
Oh, let's see what she did there.
16:21
Talk a lot about. Someone had to do it.
16:23
Yeah. Are there stories behind that
16:28
phrase? I feel like I half remember like
16:31
people putting more like illustration or or story behind
16:38
Ichigo ETA but I don't have any off the top of my head to really
16:42
describe that for people. You know, that one is so old and
16:47
I feel like there's so much lore behind it.
16:50
I'm gonna probably wrongly assume that it may have been in
16:54
a poem by Riku, perhaps even the last one he wrote before he
16:58
committed Sapoku. And I know that it has a very
17:02
strong tie to his philosophy. And I can go into the history,
17:08
if you'd like right now, but kind of what he thought about
17:12
tea ceremony. But yeah, be very interesting.
17:14
I think I think that saying really ties into the the reason
17:20
tea ceremony was created and and his philosophy in general.
17:24
And you know, when he he has a very long history, which we will
17:28
not get into right now. But it did come into Japan.
17:33
It wasn't until like the 8th century from monks from China.
17:38
But Riku, our grandfather of tea, as we call him, was the tea
17:43
master for Hideyoshi at the time around the 16th century.
17:47
So while it was popular among the upper class, he really
17:52
sought to make it more of a humble experience.
17:54
And he thought it was a lot simpler and accessible to
17:59
everyone and really popular. Popularize the idea that you can
18:04
have a, you know, a amazing experience with utensils made
18:10
out of bamboo, humble tea Hut made out of like wood and
18:14
thatched roofing. And it didn't really need to be
18:19
all of these expensive and elaborate Chinese wares that
18:24
were very fashionable at the time.
18:26
And of course, you know, if, you know Hideyoshi's history, he was
18:31
very much like a character in recent politics even that we
18:35
know that might be a fan of, like, gold.
18:38
Everything he loved opulence, he loved, you know, golden toilets.
18:44
If that was a thing back then, that would have been his jam.
18:47
So Hideyoshi was very much the opposite in in his mindset.
18:51
And if you want to talk about stories of why we got where we
18:55
are, he there's a very famous story of just kind of how Riku
19:00
trolled Hideyoshi a lot and like he would just do stuff like this
19:04
to like, if you like throw them off.
19:05
But morning glories, the flower, right?
19:08
They were super rare in Japan at the time and Riku had them
19:12
growing around his tea house. So Hideo, she said I want to
19:16
come see your morning glories and prepare tea ceremony for me.
19:20
And so he was invited and before he came, Riku picked all of the
19:26
morning glories out of his garden and did away with them so
19:30
that there was nothing for him to see when he got there.
19:33
Except when he walked in the tea room in the tokonoma, where we
19:38
traditionally display the scroll or flowers to highlight the
19:42
season or what's going on in a single vase, a very elegant
19:46
little vase. There was a single morning glory
19:49
place there, and that was all he saw.
19:52
And the what Riku basically told him was that the all of the
19:57
beauty of a field of flowers can be contained in one single
20:01
morning glory. It can have the same level of
20:04
opulence and and beauty basically.
20:06
And that was kind of the, I think the main contention point
20:10
between them is that eventually got came to a head and he
20:15
ordered him to commit some poku, not because of that experience,
20:18
but kind of like just an ongoing thing and ritual.
20:23
Suicide, right? Yes, yes, he yeah, he ordered
20:27
him to do that. And so I guess tying it back to
20:30
Ichigo Ichi, one of the biggest sayings and tea ceremony that
20:35
Riku wanted to communicate is that, you know, we're only here
20:40
1 moment in time and we should really appreciate that and focus
20:46
on the humility of it all and that we're all just people and,
20:49
and this experience we're sharing is never going to occur
20:52
again. So even if we're in the same
20:54
room together, if we come back to this place, maybe even on the
20:59
same anniversary, we ourselves will be changed, we will be
21:02
different. So really every moment is is
21:05
special. Every moment is exceptional in
21:08
that way. And I think that placing that
21:10
emphasis on the little things is is really important in tea
21:14
ceremony and something that we pay homage to all the time.
21:17
Beautiful. It's been a long time since I've
21:19
heard that story. Brings me right back to Saturday
21:22
and Sunday mornings on the tatami map.
21:26
See, that's one Ichigo Ichi 8. I will.
21:29
That's true forever. That's.
21:30
Right. That's right.
21:31
That's right. For those listeners who might
21:34
not be familiar with different key ceremony schools, could you
21:37
give a brief summary of the Sen Sankai that kind of came out of
21:41
Senoriku and then like briefly touch on and some of the other
21:46
schools out there as well? I know there's way too many to
21:49
name, but just like kind of the landscape of options if you're
21:52
interested in becoming a tea ceremony student.
21:54
Yeah, for sure. So sadly Riku was ordered to
21:58
commit Sapoku and he was not able to carry on his legacy.
22:01
However, three of his grandchildren were.
22:05
The three prominent schools are ODA Senke, Omoto Senke, and
22:09
Mushana Koji Senke, and there are very subtle differences
22:13
between the three of them. So if you were to observe the
22:18
three, a typical ceremony, you probably wouldn't be able to
22:21
pick up on the differences. However, if you do study one of
22:24
these, you will. It really comes down to just
22:28
little details. And really if they're
22:30
accessible, I feel in your city or wherever you might live, I'd
22:35
say try a couple, see how you feel, see how it it resonates
22:39
with you. But we we do all carry a lot of
22:42
the same philosophy principles, like history obviously,
22:45
obviously has that shared lineage.
22:48
And there are some offshoots. There are smaller schools.
22:52
Those are just the three biggest ones.
22:54
But you know, there's, there's samurai class ones that that you
22:59
can still find dojos that teach this.
23:02
You know, there are a lot of different like kind of slices
23:07
and flavors that I think are really beautiful to get educated
23:11
on, even if you have the opportunity to go to a talk or a
23:15
seminar and and just see what they're all about.
23:18
But yeah, they all do carry the same kind of core philosophy of
23:22
Ichigoichi, you know, the host and the guest exchange and just
23:27
giving the best possible experience and to your guest.
23:31
And just to, for anyone who's considering studying, I'll, I'll
23:36
do a little plug for your school RSNK, the which is by far the
23:42
most international. So if depending on what city
23:46
you're in, it's much more likely that an RSNK practice is going
23:52
on near you versus an Amoto Sanke or some of the other tea
23:56
ceremony schools. And so if but if you're like
24:02
looking of moving in your adult life and this is something you
24:05
really want to pursue long term, Ersenke is probably makes the
24:10
most sense for most people, unless you're really in like a
24:15
tier one city that happens to have an emote Desenke practice
24:18
like let's say New York City, for example.
24:22
That's a great clean. Yeah, I don't know if it there's
24:25
any which on the Coachesenke school presence in the United
24:28
States. Yeah, I've never heard.
24:30
Of I don't believe so yeah, although Ryan and I got our
24:34
photo with one of the higher ups in their school in New York yeah
24:38
the. Air the air the next.
24:40
Yeah, Grandmaster. Oh, really?
24:43
And we? Went to a talk at the Japan
24:45
Society. It was in 2018 maybe.
24:48
Oh wow, yeah I'm still bum they never sent that photo but it's
24:51
OK. That would have been cool.
24:53
That was a cool talk. Talk about someone who has
24:56
gravitas in a presence. Yeah, they have to carry a lot.
25:00
You know, these airs, it's a lot on their shoulders, he talked
25:04
about. Raku a lot, didn't he?
25:06
Raku. Yes, he talked.
25:09
About a very prominent Raku family and I remember
25:12
specifically about how he did a a ceremony he did with them.
25:17
He showed us the tea room and like how they carried fire and
25:21
water down the mountain and it was this epic thing to do this
25:25
with this family. It made me really inspired to go
25:28
learn more about Roku and I was in Kyoto, I don't know, two
25:31
years ago went to the Roku museum.
25:34
Actually I think he used to inspired me to do that is where
25:38
that kind of idea came from to to go do that, which I highly
25:42
recommend. Very interesting and just to
25:45
emphasize that point, that tea ceremony being an amalgamation
25:49
of hospitality in Japan. It's also like one of the
25:53
reasons I chose it was because of the merging of the arts that
25:58
it is and just how much you get to learn about these families
26:01
and the, the history that they have tied into tea ceremony.
26:05
And I mean, even matcha production rate, like there's,
26:09
there's famous farms and matcha companies endorsed by the, the
26:13
grandmasters. And so it really like most
26:17
Japanese arts, I feel like it's just a surface level way to
26:20
unlock these deeper rabbit holes and understanding you can kind
26:25
of dive forever down into and you learn, you uncover so much
26:29
the more you go. And it's it's really you will
26:33
never be bored with this these practice.
26:36
Absolutely. So many art forms involved in
26:39
the tea ceremony, right? You have, you know, tea first of
26:43
all. And then you have all the
26:45
ceramic wares. You have calligraphy or ink
26:49
painting, you have flower arrangement.
26:52
Habana, you. Have all the bamboo utensils.
26:55
Yeah, bamboo utensils. Lacquer utensils also probably
26:58
makes it an expensive hobby. You go down the rabbit hole.
27:02
It is, it is. It's my only hobby because it's
27:05
the only one I can afford. Yeah, it's half kidding.
27:13
I have a lot of tea stuff so it's OK.
27:15
All right. Speaking of tea education and
27:18
tea schools, Iceland, can you talk a little bit about your
27:22
startup journey and the founding of Pudohan?
27:25
Yeah. So that I've been through many
27:28
different phases with Pudohan. It started during my New York
27:33
City days, finding ways to incorporate the Zen of tea into
27:38
my everyday life. And I was in a start up company
27:42
with Ryan at the time and I saw lots of opportunities to help
27:46
professionals in the tech space find peace and mindfulness
27:50
through tea as well. That was what ignited my
27:53
workshops in offices like We Work and other corporate
27:58
Wellness events. And then through the years after
28:01
moving to Denver, my current base, I found that I got I
28:05
really got enjoyment through not just educating small groups
28:09
about matcha and mindfulness, but also getting an opportunity
28:13
to strengthen my practice through each ceremony I put on
28:16
for others. And that gives me a lot of joy.
28:19
While it is really a mutually beneficial thing, it's more of
28:23
AI think it's more of a smaller scale and not so corporate as it
28:26
was before though. And I still kind of emphasize
28:32
the important of mindfulness and, you know, education about
28:35
matcha and really just giving people like a space and an
28:39
opportunity to be exposed to tea ceremony and also process like
28:45
some events going on in their life.
28:46
Like, I had a great ceremony last year that was actually for
28:52
the anniversary of their son's death, who was really, really
28:57
interested in tea ceremony and Japanese culture and art and
29:03
everything. And so I never met this guy, but
29:06
the family came to me because they wanted to do something that
29:10
he loved and they wanted to kind of experience his joy through
29:15
something he loved. And through this whole ceremony,
29:19
I got to know these people and also like they got to process
29:23
their grief in a way that was really beautiful.
29:25
And I also got to like kind of meet this person through the
29:29
ceremony, which was a really, really powerful experience.
29:34
So today I really enjoy just kind of getting to the different
29:39
modes that I get to see T Ceremony helpful to people and
29:43
resonate with them. And I think it's just a very
29:46
adaptable way to show people something they never learned
29:52
before and kind of see how they can use it in their life, which
29:55
is really cool. Yeah.
29:57
That's a great way to connect with people on all levels.
30:01
It's. Yeah.
30:03
Wow, very heavy. It was.
30:06
It was. It was a heavier 1 for sure, but
30:08
it was, it was kind of a medium to hold everybody together in,
30:14
in a way that, and I mean, emotionally, right, like people,
30:18
it was a very emotional time, but I think that it helped them
30:22
process and give enough structure so that they could
30:25
have a safe space to process that and, and keep it together
30:28
kind of. So I think it's, I've had a lot
30:31
of interesting emotions come up out of being told that A, it's
30:38
OK to have this space and B, present.
30:42
I think so much we're so busy moving through our lives that we
30:45
simply just don't have permission to be present and
30:50
slow down and kind of breathe and not worry about anything
30:54
else. One of the and this is all like
30:56
old principles, you know, it's so applicable to today's world,
31:00
but I just tell people like you something that they told people.
31:05
I mean, even in the beginning was like, hey, time doesn't
31:08
exist outside these walls. Like once you're in here, you
31:11
don't have to worry about who you are when you were outside
31:15
those walls. And that's really powerful for
31:17
some people to, I think, take their armor off, so to speak,
31:21
like we know the samurai, right, could.
31:23
It was one of the only places they could take their boards off
31:26
and and feel safe. And it was respectful, too, of
31:30
course. But it was really to show that,
31:32
you know, we're all equal here. And nothing exists outside the
31:35
tea room. Not even You can't.
31:37
You shouldn't wear a watch either.
31:38
You asked me what you should do at a tea ceremony.
31:41
Don't wear a watch, is the other thing.
31:43
Or jewelry. Yeah.
31:45
OK. Yeah, OK.
31:46
So it's like an equalizer. Like it's.
31:51
A. Well, the story.
31:51
Is yes, that and also to respect the the wear so you don't
31:56
scratch anything because we don't know how expensive these
32:00
wears are that we're handling and we don't want to crack
32:02
anything or be that person that were to damage something for
32:06
sure. Yeah.
32:08
Oh, sounds like a wonderful thing.
32:10
How do I sign up? I'll give you some links after
32:16
this podcast. And we, we can post them in the
32:19
show notes too, or anyone who's interested.
32:22
So we're, it's interesting like we started and you started even
32:27
earlier than I did studying tea ceremony at a time where macho
32:31
was not fully mainstream. In fact, I think in the
32:35
university town where we were in central PA, I don't, other than
32:39
Starbucks, I don't think anyone served matcha.
32:43
And I remember, I don't know, it must have been 20/13/20.
32:47
Yeah, no, no one did. And in 2013 to 2014, one of our
32:50
instructors who was based, I think, around New York City was
32:55
telling me how cool it was that they went into the city and they
32:59
had much of their. And to them, this was like
33:02
really novel, a kind of a proud moment of cultural adoption of
33:05
this thing that they love. But now it's moved from extreme
33:09
novelty to you see it everywhere and you have all this tea
33:14
ceremony equipment being used in a cafe setting.
33:17
So what are your thoughts about using this traditional equipment
33:20
in a cafe setting? Yeah.
33:21
So I think it's evolved a lot, as you know, of course, but I
33:26
think it comes back down to some of the simple principles.
33:30
Like I've seen milk frothers, I've seen people trying to like,
33:34
we actually, we've tried to siphon it V60 it like 2
33:37
traditional coffee methods, you know, But I think there's many
33:42
ways to enjoy matcha. It's all about the ratio and,
33:46
and your foam and, and whatever your goal is, right?
33:48
But I think what I appreciate about and this whole
33:53
retrofitting thing is that even an old art like has its
33:59
awareness to change. You know, every so often the
34:02
grandmaster will slip in a new rule that updates what we knew
34:05
before. Usually it's an improvement or
34:08
an optimization. Sometimes it's just like, hey,
34:10
I, I want to do this and change the style and I'm going to do
34:13
it. So we all have to adapt.
34:15
But I think that as times change, they know in order to
34:18
survive, we have to adapt. And you know, they even have
34:22
adjusted some timaise or procedures is another word for
34:26
it. But for tabletop or westernized
34:29
sittings, for example, it's not so necessary to sit in a kimono
34:34
or even in seiza on your knees, right without a block or
34:38
something to help you. So like there's ways that we're
34:41
we've adapted to the times. But what I love about modern
34:45
Dogu and kind of what macho companies are doing nowaday are
34:49
how they adapt matcha to the modern experience.
34:52
In the same vein, for example, in Chinese tea, like we talked
34:56
about, the goal is to create the best brew of a specific tea
35:01
possible. And in Japanese tea, it's quite
35:04
different. You're using multiple tools to
35:07
create the best experience and enjoy the tea.
35:10
I mean, sure, you care about how the matcha's prepared, but
35:13
that's just one part of it. And simply showing up to a tea
35:17
room back in the day was a remarkable thing in itself.
35:20
So all of these factors went into your perception of your
35:24
bowl of matcha, not just the technique of whisking.
35:28
And today I think you have the luxury to spend a week preparing
35:33
for a ceremony or days to travel to a tea room.
35:37
So these new methods of serving matcha really help people enjoy
35:42
the tea in their busy lives. Like even you're the Senko bowls
35:46
and the way Hannah is promoting, you know, high quality matcha in
35:53
the moment, like a kit to go, you know, quickly.
35:56
I think all of the ways, the more science we're
35:58
understanding, you know, the more we progress that way in
36:01
preparation methods even are just another way to I think have
36:06
the best experience that we can too.
36:08
So I think it's really important, all that's to say,
36:11
and I think it's a positive change in general.
36:15
Yeah, totally, totally agree. And you you only see it getting
36:19
better and better. Yes, talking about the matcha
36:22
scene, I will, I want to add that I think it's also amazing
36:26
to see how not only a taste for matcha and the health benefits
36:30
has boomed. That wasn't there before.
36:32
But I think since COVID, the desire for meaningful
36:36
experiences has improved, increased too.
36:39
And I don't know about you, but I've seen an increase in just
36:43
like the interest in tea ceremony, the inquiries into
36:47
having a tea ceremony in Denver, even post COVID.
36:51
I think people really are craving an intimate, mindful
36:55
experience that gives meaning to life.
36:58
And I just think that that's another like cultural shift
37:01
we've had in the last three years or so, too.
37:05
Yeah, absolutely. And we've heard that too.
37:08
A lot of people have gotten into much just like since COVID and
37:13
like a really deep down the rabbit hole like it's we've
37:16
talked to a lot of people like that actually.
37:18
Yeah, yeah, That's awesome. It's kind of a way to unlock
37:22
more, right? Like it's just a surface way to
37:25
kind of learn more about the ceremony and the history of this
37:29
beverage. And you know what?
37:30
How we got to where we are today.
37:32
Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
37:34
So I guess as we're wrapping up, for anyone out there who's just
37:40
preparing matchas, a ritual in their daily life, whether or not
37:45
they're interested in tea ceremony, what is 1 core
37:49
principle from tea ceremony that could improve or elevate their
37:54
own tea practice as they sift the matcha and whisk it and boil
38:00
the water and, and, you know, do all the steps necessary
38:03
mechanically to create macho. What's something that can
38:06
elevate that experience that we can take from tea ceremony, take
38:10
from Chana Yu. So one story that I love to keep
38:15
in mind is something Riku told his students.
38:19
So there's an old tale that a student once asked Riku, you
38:23
know, how do I learn to become a tea master?
38:27
And what do I have to do, basically?
38:30
And Riku replied, well, I'll tell you.
38:34
There were series of five steps or so, but what it really came
38:39
down to was you are simply boiling water.
38:43
You are making the tea and you are serving it to your guest.
38:48
And when the student heard this, he was a little upset.
38:51
And he was like, that's it. And he's like, that's really all
38:55
you have to say to me. And he said, well, he's like, if
38:59
you can successfully host a ceremony and do these things for
39:03
your guest and remaining centered and peaceful and calm,
39:08
then I will become your student. And the moral of the story is
39:13
that at the end of the day, we kind of what you said about
39:16
Michelin star restaurants, right?
39:18
We're just, we are just boiling tea, whisking the tea and
39:23
serving it to our guests. That is true.
39:26
But when you understand the intention behind what we're
39:29
doing, that's kind of where the magic happens.
39:32
And I think that's kind of where the change happens and, and what
39:37
you're putting into it. And truly, when you know all
39:40
that goes into making a ceremony, just boiling the water
39:44
and just whisking the tea, making sure it's delicious and
39:48
your guest is having a good time.
39:50
Anyone who's hosted a dinner party knows that that is not the
39:53
easiest thing to do with a lot of different factors going into
39:56
it. So I think the moral for me is
39:59
that through doing mundane things, through doing the simple
40:03
things, we can really create something, something
40:07
exceptional. And if I am stressed or if I
40:12
have to do something difficult, one of the biggest comforts for
40:15
me is to just. Breathe, calm down.
40:19
Remember that at the end of the day, we're just making tea.
40:23
That's all it is. It might look fancy, it might
40:25
look like a lot, a lot of details and a lot of
40:28
showmanship, but at the end of the day, we're just boiling tea,
40:32
boiling water and serving tea for our guests.
40:35
And as long as you can come back to that, that center and making
40:39
sure that that's what you're, you're humbling yourself and
40:43
doing really you can do anything and, and you can put whatever
40:47
you want into that. And I think that that's a really
40:50
powerful thing that I take into my daily life with me through
40:54
through studying T ritual difference.
40:56
Between like the mundane and the ritual.
40:59
Everything can be a little ceremonious.
41:01
There's, there's transformation exactly, exactly.
41:05
And there's lots that you can, you can do and I think transform
41:09
through ritual. Yeah.
41:11
Absolutely. I think that's a great note to
41:13
end on. Thank you so much for sharing so
41:16
many things. Yeah, so many beautiful things.
41:19
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.
41:22
It was really fun to to chat. Thanks so much.
41:25
So I think that's all we have time for today.
41:27
If anyone of our listeners enjoyed this episode, please
41:30
consider following this podcast or recommending it to a friend.
41:34
And definitely check out Voodoo and T if you're ever in Denver.
41:40
And we'll put all of Iceland's links in the comments below.
41:45
And thank you so much for listening.
41:47
We'll see you on the next one. See you in the next episode.
41:50
Thanks. Thank you.