Latest / Art of the Question / Why We Feel Lonely and How to Fix It - Phil McAuliffe - #5

Transcript

Why We Feel Lonely and How to Fix It - Phil McAuliffe - #5 · Art of the Question

• speaker-0: During your work as a diplomat, ⁓ you were reading a Boston Globe article, which made you realize that you were kind of lonely. Can you maybe take me back to that moment? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. I wasn't kind of lonely. I was, ⁓ like, ⁓ I was lonely. ⁓ And yeah, was, I distinctly remember the moment where I did realize that what I was reading from, you know, ⁓ middle-aged journalist, male journalist in the Boston Globe, what he was describing. was save for some context and some nouns, very similar to what I was thinking. And I'd known for a while that something wasn't right within me. And I couldn't really identify it. I didn't have the words. And one thing that frustrates me is not having the words to describe something. Um, so, you know, I, I have learned and speak, speak languages, some, some more proficiently than, than others and learned languages, which is different to speaking them. But it is, uh, like I like to think that I have a very good command like of English. And so it is very frustrating for me to not. feel that I could use words adequately to describe what I was thinking and feeling. And the closest that I could come up with Julius was like anxious or depressed. And I mean, you know, I don't have any diagnostic powers, but I didn't feel anxious. didn't feel depressed. I just felt nothing. And just this void and how do you describe a void ⁓ to yourself, let alone asking for help? And so the closest that I could kind of ⁓ get to in asking for help was kind of like a ⁓ guttural roar. where like, you know, nonsensical, just kind of a groan kind of thing that, would speak to the existential, ⁓ like. sort of nothings within me. so that's actually been very profound that that realization for me now in what we do, because there are so many people who cannot ask for the help and support that they need to move through loneliness ⁓ if they don't have the words to ask for it. ⁓ yeah, and it's one thing to have the words to ask for it. It's another thing to have the courage to use those words to ask for help. Cause it's not only the issue is not only what words do we say, but also how do we respond when someone shares their story of loneliness with us? So communication requires, you know, as a journalist, ⁓ you know, You can write all you want, but if no one's reading it, then you know, they're just words on a page. It requires someone to receive those. And we don't receive words of learnliness at all. Well, so that's the, that's the, that's the dilemma. And those words that I read in the Boston Globe were the first time that I had seen an articulation of. what was within. And I remember I was, it was, you know, a lunchtime on a weekend in, in, in Seoul. And, you know, I remember, you know, sort of pushing, pushing the iPad back, ⁓ and maybe closing it very gently and just like going, ⁓ I don't want that. that's, that's like, no, thank you. ⁓ not for me, ⁓ because loneliness seems so sad and. just sad and, and, and, know, people just seem so sad and needy. ⁓ and I'm like, no, thank you. Like, I think I would much rather depression or anxiety because there's treatment for that. ⁓ what's the treatment for loneliness? ⁓ so yeah, which, you know, was the starting point for me. And I know now a whole lot more, ⁓ about, ⁓ you know, loneliness is an important part of the human condition. But it is so important, so important that there are stories shared that actually ⁓ speak to a truth within us all because we're all meant to experience loneliness. We all do experience loneliness and we're all meant to. But life would be so much easier if we knew what to do with it, if we could identify and knew what to do with it. I wish that I'd gotten the name of the journalist, I'm sure I could look it up, who wrote that article back in 2016. But yeah, he really changed my life. speaker-0: Yeah. And that was 10 years ago. And, maybe for context, you were a diplomat and you were traveling all around the world because you were in different stations, ⁓ to do diplomat things for Australia, course. ⁓ so you were not in, I would argue the most normal of situations. because traveling, I love to travel and I love being away from home for longer periods of time. And it's so much fun because there's a lot of novelty involved and there's new cultures and there's new things to explore. But it can also get kind of lonely because most of your friends, your family is not in Korea or Indonesia or wherever you happen to be. situated at that speaker-1: Which is at once amazing. ⁓ Being a diplomat working in diplomacy gives you such a, such an insight ⁓ that you cannot get anywhere else in any other occupation. And I had responsibility while I was based in Seoul. I had ⁓ a responsibility for both South Korea and Japan. So I had an office at our embassy in Tokyo as well. I would go, you know, I had, I did sort of over 20 trips ⁓ to Japan in three years and often for like a week at a time. And it was, it was fantastic. You know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a kid from a tiny, tiny country town. in regional New South Wales of 800 people. And I still would have pinch me moments when I would sit down and in front of me would be my name badge, like a nameplate with English pointed towards me, but my name in say, know, Hangul in Korean or in Kanji in Japanese and an Australian flag. And I'd be just sort of looking around going, who made me this? ⁓ And I distinctly remember a couple of times sort of looking out the window during meetings ⁓ in Tokyo, particularly, just like going, that's the Imperial Palace. This is Tokyo. That's some Shinkansen that I can see going between buildings there. I'm not in my hometown anymore. I'm not in Lockhart anymore. ⁓ it's tremendously exciting. It's tremendously exciting. However, however, it is work. And again, harking back to something that I said before in terms of, you know, changing out a few words and context and nouns and stuff. What I know now is that what I was experiencing is so common in high pressure, high stress, high stakes, high reliability workplaces. That is not just diplomacy, but that's the financial services sector. That's in the health services sector. ⁓ That's in ⁓ the legal sector. the ⁓ professional services. in aviation, ⁓ that's in so many, so many things. ⁓ Where if you stuff up, sorry, when you stuff up, because we're human and we make mistakes, sometimes when you work in the public sector, whether you're on a diplomatic posting or not, your mistake means that the minister has a tough time in parliament. ⁓ And, you know, ⁓ gets, gets, you know, all sorts of uncomfortable questions from the media because, know, I, I, I, you know, made a mistake or something like that. And in that kind of hyper competitive environment, it's extremely competitive to get into those organizations. It's extremely competitive to get promoted in those organizations. It's yet more competitive, ⁓ to get a posting. ⁓ and then more competitive to get more than one posting. ⁓ and at any time, ⁓ in that there are hundreds of people who want your job within your own organization, there are thousands of people who want your job in the organization. ⁓ and you know, any, like we can be our own worst enemies because we are highly skilled. are, you know, we, we don't get that job because we're, we're, you know, unintelligent. However, you know, we're putting people into situations that particularly in the public sector where the expectations are extremely high, but ⁓ it is an extremely ⁓ sort of in an environment that is in extreme lack. There's a lack of time. There's a lack of funds. There's a lack of resources. ⁓ And so every day it feels like pulling ⁓ a rabbit out of a hat and making, you know, delivering things on time with a smile and making it look easy. But you can't do that every day ⁓ without it taking a price. So, and particularly In those kinds of environments. So I'm going to speak specifically to my experience in, in, the public service, but in diplomacy in particular, um, we are told, I was told numerous times, my family was told numerous times that whatever you do at home, at work, on the street, you are always Australia. It always reflects back on your country. So, you know, Your browsing history, for instance, reflects on Australia. You're like our, our children at the time were eight when we moved to Korea. It's a lot of pressure for an eight year old. speaker-0: Yeah, can imagine speaker-1: And, ⁓ you know, this is a very sort of Australian specific example, but you know, when we lived in New Zealand, like the kids would go out and play cricket, ⁓ in, sort of in the, in the common area of the, the, the townhouse complex that we lived in. And occasionally like a ball would hit a car or a house. And, you know, there were, you know, 10 at the time or 10 or 11 at the time. And of course, like, it's not just those kids from number 15. It's those damn Australian kids from number 15. and it is, yeah, it's just this multi layered reality underneath the, the, the glossy, undoubtedly glossy facade. speaker-0: Yeah. And do you think that pressure that comes with such employment also kind of hides the fact that you had feelings of loneliness because you're so busy all the time and there's so much pressure that maybe those feelings you were experiencing them, they were pushed to the side and we'll worry about that later. speaker-1: And of course there's never later. ⁓ So in such an environment, the word resilience gets thrown around a lot. And true psychological resilience is of course the ability to flex and then return to fall. However, in that environment, resilience was perverted into some kind of faux resilience to be, you must bend and bend. and bend and bend and bend. And if you cannot sustain that, you're not tough enough. ⁓ And of course you bend and bend and bend and bend and bend and you're that in an environment where you are far away from home. You may or may not have your family around you and, it is normal life. But you know, parents are at home, friends are at back home. You don't see them. can't, depending on where you are, you can't like duck back home to attend birthdays or weddings or whatever. And particularly if you're an Australian diplomat, like home is a very long way away for many parts of, it takes a lot of time and is very expensive to get home. So it is, you know, these sort of, as I said, know, a multi-layered, but We do it because the alternative is to not do it. ⁓ And when you have worked ever since school with this as a goal, like studied hard, got the right grades to do the right course at the right university to get them the right grades to then, you know, get into ⁓ into a graduate program in these organizations. You know, it's, it's, it's, it takes like, it's an investment. so for me personally, that realization in 2016 happened when I was about to turn 40 and I, you know, the idea of changing my life, even just a little bit, risked everything. Not just my job, but how my, how my family was, was experiencing life. Yeah. speaker-0: You did. So, yeah, well, but, you read the article, ⁓ you, was kind of, ⁓ uncomfortable in a way because you recognized yourself in those words and you put it away at first, but it did instill something in you that even though there was all this pressure and, and all this sense of investment into this career, not just the sense of investment, actual investment time being away from home. This ended up resonating so much with you that you decided to make a change and started to dedicate your life to help other people do something about their loneliness. Can you tell me about that journey? What happened then? speaker-1: Yeah. long story short, I got curious. And one of the things that I know now is that no one changes unless they're ready. Now, I hope I can swear here. If you can. Okay, great. Basically we don't change until we're tired of our own bullshit. And. So long as we believe what we're telling ourselves. We don't change and the prospect, the fear of change needs to be less than the fear of staying the same. of the fear of nothing changing. so that was, that's, I've seen this countless times in my work over the last 10 years. And it is always the case within me too. So, you I've got, ⁓ you know, I'm sure that there's some data and statistics from, from researchers that can back this up, but anecdotally within my work. And I simply, Julius got tired of, like I was scared of what would happen if. Nothing changed. So doing something was the least worst option. speaker-0: Yeah. And I really resonate with this because when I started my career, I used to be a tax lawyer. I, after high school, I didn't really know what to do. So I went to law school and then when I was in law school, there was a teacher and he asked the classroom, do you want to make a lot of money? And while some hands went up, one of those hands were, was mine. It's like, yeah, sure. I want to make a lot of money. All right. Then you should focus on. getting into tax law, right? Because tax laws where the money's at. So, all right, well, whatever. I'll, I'll, I'll focus on tax law and university goes by, you study and before you know it, you're, doing internships at these law firms and you blink with your eyes a couple of times. and before you know it, you're a tax lawyer now. You're like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. What, happened? I never, this isn't the life I envisioned as a kid. I wanted to do to make movies. wanted to do something creative. I wanted to write and now I'm a tax lawyer in this corporate fucking company. What, what happened? Right. So after three years, I decided it was enough. didn't really have a plan. ⁓ but I just, I was just, something just snapped. will never forget. I was working out in the gym and I was just staring into the void and something just snapped inside me. I just got so angry and I was like, This can't be my life. I'm just here on a Monday and I made a promise to myself next Monday, I'll still be here in the gym, but I will have quit my job. And that's exactly what I did. It was very, very scary, but I was just so fed up with my life and I really, I needed that change. And the funny thing is after I quit my job, I was still invited to the Christmas party of the company I worked at, which was Deloitte at the time. And I had, I had a very good time with the people that work there. The people that work there were amazing. ⁓ and I remember everyone had a few drinks, so they were a bit looser than usual. And everyone came up to me, dude, I'm so, I'm so proud of you for doing this and. You've really inspired me. I'm going to make a change as well. And yeah, it's so brave that you decided to quit your job. And sometimes I see on LinkedIn, they're still working. They're still working for that company. Even though almost four years ago now, they told me they didn't like it and they needed a change. But I think, and this is what I wanted to say, I have a metaphor for this. So sometimes a bad situation is actually better. A worse situation can actually be a better situation because that actually makes you take action, right? I always use the example of when I'm riding my bicycle through Amsterdam, everyone has those moments where they feel their tires are getting pretty soft. So every time you go to work or to the gym, whatever, It takes a little bit more effort and you're so annoyed by, by the soft tires. I'm like, damn, I should really pump those tires up because this is really getting annoying. But then you get home and you're tired and I like, tomorrow I'll pump up the tires and then you forget. then you're, you're back to scrone. But if you get a puncture, if you have a flat tire, then you'll fix it. Then you'll go to the bike store. So paradoxically being in a worse situation can be better because it, it, it. forces you to take action. speaker-1: It rips all the excuses away. And that's a, I love that. That's such a Dutch ⁓ example too. ⁓ For me, for me, I use ⁓ the example of a pebble in your shoe. And you know, when you find a pebble in your shoe and like, sort of walk a few steps is like, is it in the sock or is it like between like in the shoe, but not in the sock kind of thing. And then you sort of take a few more steps. And it's not that bad. can just sort of shake my foot around and, you know, and, and, and, you know, move the, so it's not rubbing or the stone's not rubbing, but sooner or later, you're going to have to stop, take your shoe off, maybe take your sock off and shake it out and then put it all back on. then you can walk, walk again. Well, however, if you walk long enough with that pebble in your shoe, rather than just a few moments to take the pebble, like to get the pebble out, to de pebble your shoe, all of a sudden, you know, your skin, not all of a sudden, but over time, your skin becomes raw and you have a blister, which then is a whole other magnitude of pain. ⁓ And, and, and, know, it comes with its own complications and things as well, which makes it sometimes difficult to walk. So for all of a few minutes of stopping, shaking your shoe out, you know, you can go on your way. And for me, that's what loneliness is. Loneliness is an invitation to stop. and check in because loneliness is only job. I want to say this really clearly. Loneliness is only job is to tell us that we are missing the connection that is meaningful to us. Its only job is that loneliness doesn't care whether you like it or not, whether you welcome it or run away from it. It does not care. It is simply waiting for you to stop, shake it out, find out what's going on. And, ⁓ however, rather than getting a blister, what happens is that when we ignore it, much like when we ignore hunger, much like we ignore thirst, which loneliness is as elemental as hunger and thirst for our survival. They are merely signals. If we ignore it, it does affect our mental health. Loneliness in itself is not a mental health problem. Loneliness is an indicator of a social health issue. Left intended, left unacknowledged, loneliness becomes a mental health issue. Loneliness is an antecedent condition to anxiety. It is an antecedent condition to depression. both which are mental health issues. Loneliness is an antecedent condition to suicidal ideation. all of which need help. Loneliness, simply needs connection. We don't need to go to a doctor. We don't need to go to a mental health professional. We simply need to make sure that we know our connection needs and get our connection needs and critically create environments where others can get know their connection needs and get their connection needs met too. That all loneliness is. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I've, that's, that's a very interesting way of framing it. uh, the, the, um, mental health side of it, I think people probably often assume that loneliness is a mental health condition, but I've seen some of the, in preparation of this conversation, I've also, I also saw some studies where if That loneliness can also cause a lot of physical harm. So not just on the mental side, but I saw some, some crazy studies that it's about as unhealthy. mean, it, I'm probably butchering this, but ⁓ loneliness is as deadly as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. ⁓ and, ⁓ there was this Harvard study. I think it's one of the longest ongoing studies on, human loneliness. That loneliness was one of the prime predictors of physical health, better than for example, cholesterol. ⁓ So if they did some study, they saw the how social, how social people were at their fifties. And then that was a better predictor of their health when they are 80. So it's not just mental health, but it's also very. Physical. speaker-1: Yeah. So, I'm so glad that you brought this up. ⁓ We have a collaborative agreement ⁓ with a behavioral science company based in France ⁓ that is actually co-founded by a renowned ⁓ Dutch ⁓ behavioral scientist. So Dr. Hans Rocha-Aziman. And Hans, if you're listening, hello. ⁓ and I simply want to say that, you know, when, Hans is yelling at the speaker, ⁓ because I'm going to mangle this up. ⁓ we can't hear you, but simply, ⁓ loneliness, loneliness does a very good job of killing us. And there's a couple of things here. ⁓ that 15 cigarettes a day, ⁓ the, science has moved on from that, that. that headline has really stuck. It can serve, ⁓ but I think what is critically important, and I do this in my work because it lands with humans, perhaps more than statistics do, because we can somehow, when statistics are quoted and cited, we can think that we're in the other part that this doesn't apply to. But I mentioned before Julius about how loneliness is akin, elementally, to hunger and thirst. What happens when how long can you survive when you don't have anything to drink? speaker-0: Around, I think it's two days, maybe three if you're pushing it. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, it is two or three days. And if you don't eat... speaker-0: Yeah, well, depends on your fat percentage at the time of starting your fast, but I think it's weeks if you're just normal body weight and ⁓ can be a very, very long time if you're obese. speaker-1: Yeah. Right. But you know, we, we, we do need to eat and we need to drink. if we don't drink, our demise is fast. Uh, if we don't eat, our demise is slower, but you know, it, it, it, you know, ends the same. Yeah. Connection rather than days and weeks or months, connection takes years. Feeling disconnected takes years. So. speaker-0: inevitable. speaker-1: What we need, just like we need clean water, just like we need food, hopefully nutritious food, but we need meaningful connection. And we're designed to get it. ⁓ And so what we have made loneliness mean is that we're broken. What we've made loneliness mean is that I need fixing and I need to be fixed. I need to go to a mental health professional. Now, sometimes, yes, we do it, particularly if there is, you know, a, ⁓ another kind of, you know, mental health issue, or we need to go to the doctor if we've got, you know, other, other issues, of course, but underlying that is, ⁓ is a lack of meaningful connection. I keep on stressing meaningful connection because that's really important because meaningful connection is the kind of connection that is meaningful to each of us and that is different. speaker-0: That's different from superficial connection. speaker-1: ⁓ it differs for all of us. So Julius, what, what you might do for like, and, know, completely get lost in time and it really sort of fills your social battery might be so boring to me. Right. ⁓ and vice versa. And that's okay because you know, however many billions of people there are in the world, like meaningful connection is, ⁓ is, is, is the way through, ⁓ a loneliness experience. But because we've coming back to my point, because we've made, we've essentially pathologized loneliness and we've associated with I'm broken. Therefore I need fixing. No, you're not broken. You're a human who is socially hungry. To quote Michelle Lim from ending loneliness together here in Australia. You're socially hungry and you simply need meaningful. connection. However, there is such a stigma around loneliness that we don't talk about it. And because nobody talks about it when we do inevitably as we are designed to, just like with hunger and thirst, we're designed to feel it when we're missing something. We don't know how to get what we need because asking for what we need risks coming out as lonely, risks Televising to everybody that we're broken, that we're unworthy of love and belonging and all that kind of stuff when simply that's all judgment. That's not helpful. Where simply it is our bodies craving social nutrition. And if we don't get it, we end up developing, developing cancers. We end up ⁓ It puts us in such a state of fight or flight ⁓ that it amps up our cardiovascular system. So ⁓ the leading cause ⁓ of death, ⁓ well, here in Australia, it's suicide for men ⁓ up to 45, but after that, it's cardiovascular disease. where- speaker-0: The of from loneliness. speaker-1: or, you know, poor diet or smoking or whatever, but loneliness is certainly a contributing factor, particularly if it's unaddressed and if it's an untended. ⁓ And yeah, it doesn't take days. doesn't take weeks. It takes years for these, for these diseases ⁓ to show. So it can put us at higher risk of dementia, higher risk of developing certain types of cancers. ⁓ It is an all the treatment we know the treatment is so simple. is meaningful connection. So our work is all about empowering people to recognize the thoughts and feelings of loneliness and empower them to go to take the shoe off. speaker-0: Yeah. take the pebble out of the shoe. Yeah. And before we start looking, because I really want to discuss your framework and I want to also discuss some of, ⁓ yeah, practical solutions rather than just calling it. speaker-1: the people. speaker-0: seek connection. I haven't understand it is my understanding that loneliness isn't getting better. If anything, it's getting worse. We are lonelier than we were 20 years ago. Is that true? And if so, why what's happening to us? speaker-1: Loneliness has been part of being human ⁓ ever since we started being humans. What we're getting better at is understanding it. And we are asking smarter questions, we are doing smarter research and uncovering more and more. 100 % of the population experiences loneliness. And anyone who says that they don't experience it is like, having us on. We're meant to, we're meant to experience it. ⁓ so there's, there's a couple of things there. One is that we, we are getting better at understanding it and doing better measures for it. ⁓ there are, ⁓ it is a contentious part of, ⁓ or a contended part of, ⁓ of research discussions, like in the field, ⁓ about the, you know, is it getting worse? Because there are indications that it is actually improving. That people are feeling less lonely and more connected. But more and more people taking a step back, more and more people are becoming aware of loneliness, more and more people are having that Boston Globe article moment of going, ⁓ maybe that's what it is. Ooh, I don't like that. But you know, I, I, you know, ⁓ like I figured that that's a part of me. and you know, whether or not I do something about it, I don't know, but you know, I certainly can recognize it. So whether it's getting worse, I think what we're seeing is the result of both better studies, better ways of capturing and analyzing the data, and also the product of heightened, of increasing awareness. speaker-0: YAS speaker-1: And so we can, we can, sorry, just to finish my point, we can look at those, look at that data and go, ⁓ my God, this is terrible. It's getting worse. Or actually this is good. This is good. More and more people are knowing about this. So we can actually do, and again, I don't want to jump ahead. I'm in your hands, but, ⁓ you know, we know the cure. Like we, we, we, we know the antidote, not the cure, but, ⁓ we know. For all of that, that loneliness is part of the human condition. It's simply as, um, uh, as, as any, like, you know, we may as well say there's an increase in happiness. That's terrible. It's like, it's, it, it, it, I don't want to say it's nonsensical. But I think it ⁓ potentially ⁓ obscures some real positives. ⁓ But we get to, always, awareness means nothing if we don't choose to do anything with it. The power with awareness is in what we do with it. speaker-0: Yeah, so I mean it could so it could be I saw some numbers that that more loneliness was reported So it could be something as simple as we want to combat crime in the neighborhood So we deploy more police officers and now all of the sudden because we have deployed more police officers There is more crime that we discovered So if you look at it from a pure numbers perspective, the crime rate has increased but obviously ⁓ not much more crime is taking place. The neighborhood has actually become safer, but we are merely aware of more crime happening. Could be, could be a similar effect there. what I, what I do find interesting though is, from what I've read at least is after or during COVID, but also after COVID a lot of companies. are, um, yeah, are still working from home at least for a few days per week. Uh, there is, uh, people are, I believe going to church less, for example, than they did 30, 40 years ago. Uh, there was some, um, uh, data that, yeah, people are just I don't know if it's, if it's very correlated, but this is more applicable to, to, to the younger generation that they don't go out as much. They, they live in their parents' house for a longer time. They, they drink less alcohol, which should be a good thing, but they also meet less people. So I think that was part of the reason why I, why it was my understanding that we were getting more lonely in that sense, but you have a more optimistic view, I believe. speaker-1: I think there's, there's, I'm so glad that you, you raised this. A former, someone who I used to work with when we do crisis, ⁓ crisis planning and crisis response planning, ⁓ particularly in Korea and Japan, ⁓ which kind of was, was a real, like real risk for, you know, for, for different reasons in each country. But. The former Australian ambassador in Japan had this fantastic expression and I love it. I love it and I've found myself for years after and including right about now about to quote it, crises catch us where we are. COVID caught us where we are as a society. And, you know, ⁓ I started working on loneliness and human connection before COVID. ⁓ Suddenly during COVID and I was stuck in New Zealand ⁓ for the first part, was like loneliness was everywhere. Like talks about loneliness was everywhere, what you can do, hints, tips, all that kind of stuff. And some of it was good. A lot of it was good. I was like, I'm not quite sure that's actually terribly helpful, but it was well-meaning. But as a result, in the absence, in the absence of everything else going on in life, people were caught where they are and realized that the quality of the connections of the people that they had around them as neighbors, in their community, with their family who may have been, you know, a long way away or whatever, weren't there. And, ⁓ you know, that was a crisis without doubt. What we're now seeing, and this is where our work is. ⁓ beginning to really move into. So I have a public policy background, ⁓ as, as well, the framework, the infrastructure, what we call, what we call the relational infrastructure around us is weak. And as much as the boss of Heineken wants us to drink more beer, because that makes us less lonely if we drink more beer, ⁓ I think that's terrible advice, by the way. ⁓ But second of all, ⁓ young people, and I just this morning went to the release of a report just in this area of Canberra. And talking about like it was a, it was a pilot program, um, run out of the university of Canberra to address loneliness and to feed connection essentially in 18 to 30 year olds. part of it was In a work environment reliant on casual workers where shifts and work are unreliable, how do you make plans to catch up with friends? Beyond that, that's a sort of a micro level here in Australia. have a real housing issue and I know that we're not alone, I, you know, I can, I can, you know, I'll speak using Australia as an example, but you know, it is near like, it is so expensive to rent. ⁓ And it is so expensive to save up for a deposit for a house. and meanwhile, meanwhile, like, you know, what would take, you know, people, you know, 40, 50 years ago, three years of saving now takes people over 15 to then get into a life of enormous debt, the system. And then if they can get solid work, continuous work, ⁓ in an environment where even high skilled, high paid, ⁓ working high paid sectors, previously sought after sectors, are being replaced by AI. ⁓ where we are creating a world where being human is seen as a liability. And it is little wonder, like, you know, when you're, you're, when you're operating in such a world, like how can you afford to go out? How can you, you know, and even if you could, you know, meet up with like, you're, if the planets and the stars align with, you know, your friends who are also working casual jobs, ⁓ you know, how do go out? You know, how do you, so it's not just the, the, the, the issue is not only, you know, a personal issue. It's a whole structure. The way that society has been created. is not now working. We're seeing this. It's not working for us as humans. And what we are seeing, I don't want to use this word lightly, but what we're seeing is, you know, potentially an indicator of the people who aren't doing so well in this, like they simply do not feel that they belong. Whether or not they feel lonely, it's one thing, but we do know, societally, that loneliness feeds social, well, connected people create social cohesion. It's hard to feel that you belong in a community if you don't feel that you don't feel seen and you don't feel heard. So, people will do crazy things to feel seen and heard. speaker-0: Yeah. And is, this also because you and your organization, when you're working with people, ⁓ have created a framework that consists of three pillars, believe. how does that fit into the whole picture? And maybe it would be interesting to discuss each of those pillars, ⁓ to discuss some practical takeaways for, people that do experience loneliness. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. When people experience loneliness. speaker-0: When? Yeah, when, because everyone does, right? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, what we, what we do is essentially like, you know, just like we've all learned, hopefully all learning that when we're hungry, we, you know, go to the fridge or go to the pantry and make ourselves a meal or make ourselves a snack. And we, you know, have some basic, you know, skills to eat. What we're doing is teaching people how to put together their snack. So It's not helpful to leave the conversation at connection is the antidote to loneliness. It's like, great. Pardon me, but no shit. Like what, what do I do with that? All right. And so what is connection? And so here at humans connecting, we go by the three pillars of connection. We break it down to the three pillars of connection. And each one of these three pillars needs to be as strong and as sound as the other two. And so in order they are connection to self, connection to those most important to you, and then connection to community. And when people, when the internet provides advice of, know, you've just got to go and connect or the advice that I received, which was spectacularly unhelpful of you've just got to put yourself out there. What we can do is go, ⁓ right. I need to, I don't know, like, you know, have a conversation with my significant other, or I need to go and spend time with my kids or with my parents or with my siblings or, or whatever, or I need to go and join a club and things. However, However, there's a kernel of truth in that very frustrating advice of you've just got to put yourself out there because we focus on the out there. But the critical part in all of this, Julius and listener viewer is we have to put our self out there. So we need to know who we are and then be who we are. Because when we are ourselves, at least for a little bit... The connection that we get back from beyond ourselves is the connection that we need. However, if we are going out into the world beyond ourselves in some kind of performative state, if we are going out into the world as the tax lawyer, if we are going out in the world as the journalist all the time, the, you know, parent, the whatever it is as a role, it's, it's wearing a mask and the connection from other people, the mask gets it. Not the person wearing the mask. So it starts by connection to self. And then we start showing up in connection with those most important to us. And we get to choose who those people are. ⁓ And then we then get to ⁓ connect with the community. So that could be in the workplace, could be here literally, you know, in the community, that could be, you know, with the greater world, it can be with, you know, online, offline, can be, you know, in nature, all that kind of stuff. So everything beyond those other two pillars. ⁓ But it all starts when we are ourselves. And it's as easy as that. It's as simple as that, but it is so like it is the stuff of life to know who we are and then to be who we are. speaker-0: Yes. So if, for example, I feel lonely, but I see there's an opportunity for me to connect. So maybe I'll pretend to be a fan of a certain sports club or whatever that I'm not really a fan of. don't care for the sport at all, but I just pretend to be a big, big fan. And I join. this new group to the stadium and I'm celebrating and I'm having all these connections. Maybe it's fun for being around these people, but deep down, you know, I don't really care for this sport. I'm not a big football fan. I'd prefer to be around golf. don't know. It's just an example here. I would really like to be golf. In a way, if you have a mask on, if you pretend to be someone else, you can can really find true connection because if there is a connection, they're connecting to a facade rather than you. And therefore you still feel lonely. speaker-1: That's well summarized. For me, a great clue for all of us is if you feel that you are in spaces and places with others where you need to remember your lines. ⁓ and you need to remember, ⁓ shit. Like I have to act in a certain way. I need to dial down. I need to edit who I am. So I fit in. That's a really big clue. That is a really big clue. If you're trying to remember your lines, life gets a whole lot simpler when we don't have to remember our lines. We can just show up as us. speaker-0: Yeah. And I, I think it's even though it's uncomfortable, but I will say everything desirable takes work. Right. So even if you, let's say you, you completely embrace yourself, you find yourself, you know, okay, this is who I am. But then you still have to get out of the house. If you, if you know like, okay, I'm, I want to be around golf. People are like golf. I'm not a football fan. I'm not a football Hooligan. I'm into golf. Okay. Then go to the golf court. Right. I mean, it's, it, it starts with finding out who you are, but yeah, everything takes, takes work. I feel like that's not, not something you are always in the mood for when I feel, have feelings of loneliness and you're Those usually are paired with forms of slight depression. And if you experience depression, one of the hallmarks of depression is just that you don't want to do anything, that you just prefer to stay on the couch ⁓ or stay at home and not really connect to anyone, which then makes it worse and puts you into a spiral. I really understand your point of finding yourself first, ⁓ what is your, you do agree with me probably that it also then after you figured that out, then the work starts, then you have to go out there and then you have to put in some effort. It's not going to be given to you. speaker-1: No, and this is, this, this, this probably terrible marketing, right? Right. But you know, it would be so wonderful to be able to say, Oh no, it's easy. Just follow this seven step thing and off you go. No, no, no, I would be lying and it would be disingenuous. And if someone, if you do come across someone who does that, like they're lying to run away. But basically. There's a couple of things here. The spiral that you described there is so true. So true. So true. And it is hard. takes effort to stop the spiral, let alone come out of it. But once we stop it, we realize that we're not that deep in it. Right. We can realize that we're not that deep in it, but I simply want to say this loneliness does a very good job at making us question. our worthiness for love and belonging. So what makes it so hard to admit it aloud? Because essentially we're, we're, we're, we're broadcasting to the world. I don't think I'm worthy of anyone's love. Least of all my own. Like we don't do it. Right. It's like talking about sex and money, like in public, we just don't do it. It's not what we do, but we need to do it. Connection. Connection happens. The way through this is by stoking the fire of worthiness. And there needs to be part of us. And I say this to the people I work with and I'll, I'll, I'll give it to you now. There needs to be a part of us. And I imagine like it's in my heart, right? In that kind of area there. And this is room that's just for me and my job every day, at least every day is to descend from my head down kind of like the lighthouse stairs, I guess, ⁓ into that room in my heart. And there is a campfire there. And it is my job to stoke the fire and put more logs on that to, you know, that's my worthiness fire. It is no one else's. No one else can light it for you because when you questioning your own worthiness for love and belonging, someone can offer you their, their flame because they love you and you do a very good job of blowing it out because you don't feel worthy of that. So this is an inside job. Right. And it's just, it start with kindling. You don't need to create a huge bonfire. Like start with kindling and take care of it. Take care of it. Tend it, spend time there each day because, because Julie, she said it, this takes effort. It takes intention. It takes risking getting it wrong. You didn't get it wrong. ran a connection experiment. You simply learned something, right? And that, you know, we start to, once we start to feel a little bit warm. from that fire within, reminding ourselves of our worthiness. Then we can then start from that place in that warmth, knowing that nobody else, cannot allow anyone else to blow it out. Nor can anyone, ⁓ light it for us, but we can share out. And perhaps very poetic, very sort of visual, but the effort that it takes, and I'm not going to say it's easy again, but the, does take effort. does take deliberate intention and it takes doing it, not talking about it, not thinking about it, not sort of, ⁓ analyzing it and, and all of that kind of stuff. actually takes doing it. That's the only way that we move through. loneliness to connection is by doing connection. So that's it's, it's, it's otherwise it's akin to getting a cookbook, reading it and going, well, I know how to make a filet mignon. ⁓ it's like, well, yeah, but you actually like make a mess, get into the kitchen, like, and then eat it. You need to eat it to, to, feel it. But it is so much easier. Not easy, easier. When we do it from a place of knowing that we are worthy of love and belonging. Julius, viewer, listener, you are always worthy of love and belonging. And if you need a reminder, please come to me. I'm sure after a few minutes conversation, I could list a very long list of ways that I think that you're just amazing, but it means nothing unless you are prepared to actually start building that fire within you. speaker-0: Yeah. Are you aware of the concept of the lonely chapter coined by Chris Williamson? speaker-1: ⁓ no, I haven't, but I am going to take a guess. ⁓ it's around, ⁓ midlife. speaker-0: It's could be it's around, I would argue is more around personal development. It's what happens when you are in a certain place and you desire change. Maybe the kind of change we discussed earlier and you start working on yourself. Maybe you start losing some weight. Maybe you start going to the gym. Maybe you quit your job. to start a business, whatever it be, maybe all of the above, maybe something completely different. But the thing is you have a certain goal and you begin starting to work towards that goal. So as you're doing it, you become a new person. during this journey, all of a sudden you don't really match with your old friends, maybe even family anymore, because your values start to change and you start to value different things. Maybe you don't go to the club anymore. Maybe you don't drink as much as you used to because you have to work through the weekends now because you're working on your business. Whatever. what Chris describes as the lonely chapter is you are not yet. ready to become friends with the people who've already achieved the life you desire, but you already don't match with your old group of friends anymore. So the period in between is what he would call the lonely chapter. And I believe you have a similar concept, which you call the gap, I believe. So I thought that really resonates with me. So Yeah. I was just interested whether you were, ⁓ yeah. What is your take on that? speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I do like that, that description of the lonely chapter. One of the things that can keep us in our loneliness is the fear of change. And, know, what will people certainly, what will people think? What will people do? How will they respond if I do something different? There's a cost, some benefits to that. they get the benefit, you wear the costs, right? And then, but they also wear the costs because they're not getting you. They're getting a version of you that you're giving them. That's not making you happy. they're, you know, they're, you know, they're not getting the benefit of, of knowing you and your full awesomeness. So when we answer a call and do change, whether it is, you know, not going to, ⁓ to the soccer game, but we're going to, ⁓ go into the golf club or, ⁓ you know, ⁓ changing jobs, changing careers, leaving a relationship, whatever it is. For me, part of me coming out was, well, I came out. ⁓ But all of this change in my life, I just want to preface this by saying this didn't all happen at once. This has been happening ongoing. But I simply want to say that when we do something different, people will notice. Good. Good. It is helpful to know you mentioned values, but to quote Simon Sinek, know you why? And when you know that you're worthy of this and you're living, you know your values and you live your values. I Mark Twain said, those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter. There will be some people who go, ⁓ Julius, nah, nah, like this is too much. I like, who are you? Okay. And there'll be someone who, know, randomly, he'll go, that's really cool. Like I, I, know, this, this is amazing. I'm so like happy and proud of you. want to be, you know, more, you know, know more about it. I want to be more involved. Even if just, you know, from a social perspective, not necessarily a business perspective. When we are in that period of change, there is that gap and it is the gap between two trapezes. And, and, and we don't know where the other trapeze is. And we need to trust that we've got enough momentum. We're going to trust like, however, there is the safety net. We can't see it because it's dark and like the spotlight, we feel the spotlight on us, but the safety net's really close by. So even if you miss it, the safety net's close by, but it does, it is absolutely terrifying. And we. We can balk at change, at doing change until we know that we can speed through that gap. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I agree. And it's what was difficult for me is I still like, I love my friends that I have from, from back in the day that were, that were my friends that have been my friends for 15 years over, over 10 years, but a lot of them are still. just doing the job they studied for. They're very happy. just work their corporate jobs. And I still like spending time with them, but a couple of years ago, I really pivoted from just going out every weekend and just trying to live a healthier life and trying to build something in a more creative field of work, starting to enjoy making videos, starting to enjoy writing and I just notice sometimes this mismatch when we get together that my interests aren't the same anymore. it's not like they aren't interested in what I'm doing. It's more that I feel like I can really resonate with all my friends like I used to because I have changed as a person, but I do not yet know enough people that do similar. things and I went to Bali a few times now and I first time was over two years ago and I lived in this house called the lost creator house. And it was basically a coworking house with around 20 people and everyone that lives inside that house was either into filmmaking, photography, writing, or making music. ⁓ So it was a great bunch of people and some people were already at a stage where they were actually making a living from the own content they produced and some people were just starting out and they still had to work a job on the site. But everyone was living together and working towards a similar goal and like exchanging knowledge. And I remember coming into that house and it was for the first time. in such a long time that I felt like, okay, this is, this is a right place for me. and I think in in a way that's like, it's really awesome that I got to experience that. but in a way it was also kind of depressing because the house is gone now, first of all. and you experience something like, this is how it can also be like. It does exist. This disconnection that I was looking for, it is out there. ⁓ But then you go home and then your life turns back to normal, I guess. That's kind of difficult. Yeah, that doesn't help either. speaker-1: and you know. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that Julius. think there's a couple of, there's a couple of things here. ⁓ and I simply, one of the things that I do is listen. And you might already like have picked this up as, ⁓ like in your, in your journalist work, but when oftentimes, and it's really common, it's really common when, we're talking about something that is uncomfortable for us. ⁓ we, go into the second or the third person. and you know, we say things like you feel when you go home that you're, you know, things aren't the same and you kind of, you know, miss what you had there and you don't have it here to paraphrase. One of the things that I say to the people I work with is this substitute all of those use. Hi. speaker-0: Haha. speaker-1: and bring them in because what we're essentially doing is like this hurts. This hurts. And for a very good reason, it hurts. Right. But what we end up doing linguistically is putting it out of ourselves. And again, I don't have any formal qualifications, we disassociate. Like in the sense of like, you know, we And sometimes it makes it easier to analyze the situation when it's linguistically out there. But my challenge constantly in spaces where loneliness is being discussed, and I kind of like saying this to academics and researchers, it's great. Great. You could talk about loneliness in the third person, but we, you know, we come unstuck when we forget that it's only ever experienced in the first person. So my suggestion to you, apropos of nothing, is ⁓ to actually, you know, in telling that story, maybe not to your audience, but you know, within yourself is, you know, start saying, I, ⁓ and it is okay. It is so okay that that is uncomfortable to the point of painful, perhaps. Certainly uncomfortable, ⁓ but the discomfort won't kill you. speaker-0: No, wasn't. I wasn't even aware of the fact that I was speaking in second or third person. So that's interesting that you picked that up. It wasn't a conscious decision on my end, but all the more reason to look into it. speaker-1: Yeah. I simply, there's a few things. Thank you for taking that in the spirit that it was intended. was not meant to sort of derail things, but I find this all the time. And I think that that's for you, Julius, and also your audience here. Pay attention when someone's telling you a story that's quite personal and they're uncomfortable. because the discomfort sometimes is reflected in putting it into the second or third person. And you can respond as if it's in the first person because that's really what's happening there. What you experienced there in Bali was the ⁓ kind of environment where the connection that you need was. And it would be great to be able to like go to Bali all the time. Uh, and, know, go to, go to, you know, the next iteration of that house or some other sort of similar villa. It'd be great to do that. But what you've shared there is a, um, a reflection that you, you can explore creating that. in a different way. Because if you need it, other people will need it. What you shared with me just now and with the audience, like, yes, me too. Me too. I, I, you know, love my friends. I love our friends, but there's precisely like, well, there's a few more now, but, ⁓ you know, I'm Humans Connecting World headquarters is in an upside called Sit Stand Desk ⁓ in our kitchen dining room here in suburban Canberra. And the people that I work with are not here. They're in Melbourne, they're in Sydney, if they're in Australia, but they're in Canada, they're in the US, they're in Europe. The people who know what I do and I've never been able to give them a hug. speaker-0: That's the f- speaker-1: I've never been able to, you know, and, and I go to my, you know, to, catch up with friends and they're still talking about things that are happening in the public service. I there and like, I, like, you're reminding me why I left. ⁓ and you know, I, I, I end up like saying things like, ⁓ that's, that's terrible. Like they're there. I don't know. Like. speaker-0: and that's that's speaker-1: You know, and, then when they ask me, I, ended up saying things like, well, you know, and I could see as well, well-intentioned as, as they might be. Like I could see the, like the, the, the, kind of veneer of incomprehension. Um, I may as well have slipped into speaking Greek, um, for, for, for what it is, but where I am now and perhaps, you know, is where you are. I'm speaking very personally here. I'm in the midst of creating what I need. And I've been looking for it, but it's not there. So I'm in the midst of creating what I need. and one of the things that ends up happening when we do change, when we resolve to do connection. We might not have the sensation of physically landing on the other side of the gap, but we create the landing as we fly. And we create the environment that we need. And it happens to be that particularly around connection. Where connection is at the heart of it, it happens to be what everyone else needs to. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And I, ⁓ yeah, I think so too. And I, I, there's so much more I would like to discuss, but maybe, ⁓ we should just run it back, ⁓ another, another time because there's some more, there's some more topics that I, that I would love to love to go in, go into. speaker-1: Hmm. speaker-0: But I think for now, is there anything you would still like to emphasize or ⁓ drive a point home before we wrap the conversation up? speaker-1: ⁓ firstly, thank you for the opportunity. ⁓ it is, it is always, ⁓ such a, a privilege and an honor to, be, ⁓ on other people's podcasts and talking about something that I'm just so deeply passionate about. One thing that I will say, I really want to underscore the point. This is hard. This is like the advice is simple and the putting the advice into action can be hard. It's there are going to be some days where it's easy. There's some, there's going to be some days where you're just like, ⁓ that didn't go well. And you kind of get bruised and battered and maybe a bit embarrassed. things. It is always worth it because you're worth it. Secondly, choose connection. When we're in that spiral. It can be, you know, listening or watching content or reading content as, as however well researched or well intentioned, well written it is. we can be, you know, look up and see nothing but mountain. and not gentle mountain, but like rock face and just go, ⁓ my God, like this is too hard. This is too hard. I simply say choose connection at any and every opportunity that you remember, choose connection. The easiest way of doing this, everyone says, talk to your barista. I just want to give the baristas a break. ⁓ And like, cause they probably just want to make you your coffee and get you on your way. ⁓ For me, it's at the supermarket. Stop going through the self checkout. Choose the line staffed by a human. That's choosing connection. You don't have to talk to them. You don't have to do anything else with them. But then the next time you choose connection and you say hi. You don't have to swap phone numbers. You don't have to like be besties forever. Right. But you are practicing that because when you practice connection. person receiving your connection bid, they get a little flicker, like a warm fuzzy. You get the warm fuzzy and the people who witness it, they get a warm fuzzy too. And that, like that warm fuzzy, which we call the ⁓ spark of connection. That's the thing. That's the thing. Cultivate that. So in you simply choosing connection. That's, that's what it is. It's little. Start, start small, but start. speaker-0: Well, thank you so much, ⁓ Bill. I really appreciate you. Where should people go if they want to stay up to date with everything you're doing and maybe check out human connections? speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So we're at humansconnecting.org. So that's all one word, ⁓ dot O-R-G. ⁓ And I'm on LinkedIn, ⁓ not so much on social media, ⁓ on meta-platforms anymore, ⁓ but anywhere where there is space to slow down ⁓ and engage. So that's where you can find us.