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Ravi Zacharias is Amnon — Who Are You In The Story? || 2 Samuel 13 || SLP 346 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Speak Live Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Glenn Scrivener.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for joining us.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have some very sobering things to think about.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: We think about the sexual abuse perpetrated by Ravi Zacharias over many, many years, but we also think of the systems that were in place that enabled him to carry out such evils and then cover up such evils.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's important not to think of Ravi as just one bad apple, but to see a whole nexus of evil that enables the abuse to take place.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: In order to think about these things, we're gonna go back in the scriptures to 2 Samuel chapter 13 and a real gut punch of a chapter.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a chapter in which the crown prince of Israel, Amnon, rapes his half-sister Tamar.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so this really is a trigger warning.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: These are difficult things that we're going to talk about, but we're not going to flinch from naming the evils that are involved in sexual abuse, because that's exactly what perpetrators want us to do.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: They want to cover up.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want light shone into those dark places.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the Holy Spirit through scripture does shine his light.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're going to learn so much, not just about the abuse of Tamar, not just about the evil of Amnon, but about an entire household that conspired together to both enable and then cover up the evil of sexual abuse.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we have much to learn for our own time.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ravi Zacharias was not just one bad apple.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: There are systems in place that enable such evil and that cover up such evil, and we need to be wise to it, and we need to be pointed to our great hope, the Lord Jesus.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And through 2 Samuel chapter 13 and through Isaiah 9 and John 8, we will see the hope that Jesus Christ brings and some hope for a different kind of community, a church community, a kingdom built on the edifice of Jesus Christ.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: What will that look like?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: What can that offer to victims?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have a think about that today.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are you uh subscribed to the Speak Life Podcast?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love uh to be able to share more of our ministry with you every week.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So please do uh subscribe on the Podcatcher of your choice, and it really helps if you give us a rating and review so that we can get seen by more and more people.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: But without further ado, please do listen in as we go back to 2 Samuel chapter 13 and we ask the question If Ravi is Amnon, who are you?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I want to tell you the story of a man whose name was synonymous with integrity, with faithfulness, with truth telling.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: A man who proved to be a rapist.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about Amnon from 2 Samuel chapter 13.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon in 2 Samuel chapter 13 was uh the kingdom's next big thing.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: He was the son of David, and if you know anything about the Bible, you know that the son of David is a messianic kind of a title.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: You expect messianic things from the son of David.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon was the firstborn son of David, the crown prince of Israel, the next big thing in God's kingdom, and he proved himself to be a disgusting sexual abuser.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to go through the story of 2 Samuel 13, and we're going to see what it took for Amnon to rape Tamar.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: What it took Amnon to rape Tamar was not just Amnon's evil, there was an entire nexus of toxic evil in the household of David that enabled this abuse of Tamar.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to ask the question Ravi Zacharias is Amnon.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Who are you in the story?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Who are you?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're Tamar.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this story is 3,000 years old, but it has uh the power to pack a real punch.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is a trigger warning because uh we will be dealing with violent sexual abuse of this beautiful, virtuous, wise woman called Tamar.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not going to flinch from that because one of the great tragedies of this rape 3,000 years ago, and one of the great tragedies of sexual abuse wherever and whenever it happens is that victims are always silenced.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Their stories are never told.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: But the Holy Spirit through scripture tells Tamar's story, and we must tell Tamar's story.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: We must not silence her like some in this chapter do.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: The purpose of going through this is really to see that the rape of Tamar took not just the evil of one individual, the crown prince of Israel, the next big thing in God's kingdom, the man whose name means faithfulness.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't just take one bad apple, it takes an entire toxic nexus of evil.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a Jonadab, we'll see who he is.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a David, we'll see who he is and what he does.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: It takes an Absalon, and it takes a number of unnamed servants of these wicked men in order to abuse Tamar.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the question for us is not simply, are you Amnon?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or how much Amnon is in you?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there might there might be quite a bit of Amnon in you, there might be quite a bit of Amnon in me.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: There might be quite a bit of ravi in you, there might be quite a bit of ravi in me, but that's not the that's not the fullness of the problem.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there is Absalom in me, maybe there's David in me, maybe there's Jonadab in me and in you, and maybe there's Tamar in all of us.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing, isn't it?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: In this fallen world, we are part victim, part abuser, totally messed up.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And where do we find hope?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let's have a look.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: 2 Samuel 13.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: In the course of time, in the course of time, gosh, what has happened in 2 Samuel?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: In 2 Samuel, everything was looking rosy.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Here is God's king ruling in righteousness over a kingdom that is at peace.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And yet through one sin, through one original sin of David, everything falls apart.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: In chapter 11, David takes Bathsheba.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is at best adultery.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is probably rape to take this woman, Bathsheba, who was not his own wife, and what possibility did she have for saying no?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: He takes this woman, he has sex with her, they have a child, the child dies because this is part of an original sin that unravels in a greater and greater catastrophe.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: 2 Samuel 13 is part of this unraveling of David's kingdom in the course of time.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon, son of David, fell in love with Tamar.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon is a word that means faithful.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: His name is faithfulness.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: His name means integrity.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Faithfulness and truthfulness are also very much related in Hebrew, this idea that you are a man of your word, you are a man of truth, a man of faithfulness.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the image, this is the projection of Amnon.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he's kind of a big deal, son of David, right?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: The crown prince of Israel, the kingdom's next big thing.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: But that image that he wants to project to the world is entirely false, as we're going to see.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: He is so far from being the faithful one.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: He turns out to be a disgusting predator and a rapist.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't help thinking of Ravi when it when it comes to these things.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: That here is a man who was whose name was synonymous with integrity.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's what one blogger said just this week.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had always thought of Ravi as a name that was synonymous with integrity.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: He is faithfulness.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: He is truthfulness personified, right?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: There are no questions off limits.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: That was the slogan in his apologetic ministry in trying to explain the faith to others.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's no question off limits.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, there are a heck of a lot of questions off limits with you, weren't there, Ravi?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, uh why are women sending you nudes?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why why?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Can we have a look at your phone?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's been an allegation.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Can we investigate that allegation?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Can we have a look at your phone, please?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and how come you have a phone that's different to the rest of the employees in your organization?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And how come you're off the grid?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and how come you just bought a massage parlour, Ravi?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a kind of a strange thing to do.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that question was off limits.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: How come you bought a second massage parlour, Ravi?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, because of your bad back.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: You have a bad back.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, brilliant.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've I know a chiropractor.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: His name's Bruce.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to do do you want Bruce to come and no, you don't oh, you want 20-year-old female masseurs?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: For for for medicinal purposes, right?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: You need a physiotherapist, Ravi.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why why are you ordering naked massage?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Ravi?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: What what what's that about, Ravi?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And wh why are you going on those book writing retreats?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: John Stott used to go to a cottage in Wales.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: I could I could hook you up with that cottage.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, you want to go to Bangkok?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: For weeks at a time.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: By yourself.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And to and to purchase an apartment in the same block as your masseur.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Can I ask some questions about that, Ravi?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: No question off limits.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is part of the betrayal of Ravi.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: The name says integrity.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is entirely different.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the gap between the persona and the reality is the gap in which every sin of Ravi's was allowed to fester.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's no coincidence that the first stories that were breaking about Ravi were about him inflating his credentials.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Dating back to 1980, he was claiming to be the head of a department at a seminary that had no departments.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: He was reprimanded back in 1980 for inflating his credentials, and then he went on to call himself doctor and a Cambridge student and an Oxford professor.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: He was none of these things.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: There was the projection, there was the reality, there was a massive gap between those two things, and every sin in Ravi's life was able to fester in that gap.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: So here we've got this Amnon guy.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Faithfulness, the son of David, this messianic figure, the crown prince, the kingdom's next big thing.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: All lies.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: He fell in love with Tamar, the beautiful sister of Absalom, son of David.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon kind of fancies himself as a romantic.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: He nurses these amorous feelings in his heart.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon became so obsessed with his sister Tamar that he made himself ill.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it sounds poetic, doesn't it?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like the rock songs, the pop songs, right?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is this is this what Amnon Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is this what Amnon's doing?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, she was a virgin and it seemed impossible for him to do anything to her.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now biblical love is doing something for somebody.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: What do you call it when you do something to the other person?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: You call it predation, you call it manipulation, you call it abuse.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: What he fancied about himself was that he was a lover.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is that when he was alone and let his love off the handbrake, it was actually rape.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's all that his love ever was.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Ravi really uh reckoned himself to be some kind of uh a romantic.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mr.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Zacharias, this is the report from uh Martin and Miller, the law firm.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Mr.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Zacharias kept translations of certain words and phrases in Thai and Mandarin.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: The Thai phrases included, I miss you so much, I want to see your face, and a little bit further.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: The Mandarin phrases included softer, lighter, you are beautiful, not enough.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I hope your love I hope our love lasts forever.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love you from the bottom of my heart.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to have a beautiful memory with you.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Life is so wonderful because I could meet you.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Your lips are especially beautiful, and I love you, darling.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is the love, the love that Ravi feels.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he he fancies himself a lover, he fancies himself faithful, he is anything but he is Amnon.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Amnon had an advisor named Jonadab, son of Shemiah, David's brother.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Jonadab was a very shrewd man.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's what I mean about Ravi is Amnon, who are you?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a whole nexus of evil in order to perpetrate the abuse on Tamar.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: If Amnon was left by himself, he would just remain lovesick.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: He needs Jonadab, the shrewd Jonadab, to advise him.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And as soon as you use that word shrewd, it's taking you right back to Genesis chapter 3 and the original sin.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: You see, the serpent was more shrewd, more crafty, more cunning than all the other wild animals.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: The serpent, this is this is satanic.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Jonadab is a snake in the grass coming to advise Amnon about how he can get what he really wants.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: He really wants the forbidden fruit.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is really a replaying of Genesis chapter 3.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: In Genesis chapter 3, there is a man, Adam, who is meant to stand up for his bride and protect her against the lies, and instead he is tempted to take and eat that which he should not take and eat.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: He is a coward, he abdicates responsibility, he is selfish, and he simply takes what he wants.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the original sin that unfolds itself in the rest of humanity's dark retreat from God.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: But here, Jonadab is playing the part of the serpent.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And Amnon needs this wisdom, this craft, this cunning in order to trick Tamar into bed with him.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Jonadab was a very shrewd man.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: He asked Amnon, why do you, the king's son, look so haggard morning after morning?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why won't you tell me?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon said to him, I'm in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom's sister.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Go to bed and pretend to be ill, Jonadab said.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: When your father comes to see you, say to him, I would like to see I would like my sister Tamar to come and give me something to eat.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's fascinating, isn't it?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Pretend to be ill.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Pretend to have to take to your bed, and then you can get women to serve you.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're a hop, skip, and a jump from the rape you've always fantasized about.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And what do we see with Ravi?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: We we see I've got a bad back.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's what physios are for.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Ravi?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Physiotherap have you heard of physiotherapists, Ravi?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, I need naked massage.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Alright.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about Amnon for a start.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: He presumes on the kindness of Tamar.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: He will presume on the virtue of Tamar.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: He will presume on her compassionate heart that she wants to help.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so there he is.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my poor bad back, or oh my poor illness I need.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he calls forth what is best in his victim in order to do what is worst to her.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: This is why it is such a betrayal.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: We will see this theme of betrayal coming again and again, but but oh the bad back, oh the illness, serve me, serve me.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and again, it's it's just like the impotence of Adam, silent, while the serpent deceives Eve.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like David on the rooftop oggling Bathsheba when he should have been out to fight with his men, right?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And instead, he here is pathetic Amnon with his pathetic illness.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: But the pathetic illness is calling on the goodness of Tamar in order that Amnon might do his worst.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let her prefer prepare the food in my sight so I may watch her and then eat it from her hand.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: When the king came to see him, Amnon said to him, I would like my sister Tamar to come and make some special bread in my sight.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, why?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is is David questioning him?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is there some accountability?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is there some transparency in the relationship with Amnon?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Has David not noticed the ways in which his son Amnon is looking at his half sister Tamar?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Has he not noticed?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is he not going to be vigilant to protect her?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, not so much.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I may eat from her hand.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: David sent word to Tamar at the palace, go to the house of your brother Amnon and prepare some food for him.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: There are people in charge, people in authority that send Tamars to their doom because they don't protect.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: They don't protect them from the Amnons.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not a good move, David.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So Tamar went to the broth that the house of her brother Amnon, who was lying down.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: She took some dough, kneaded it, made the bread in his sight, and baked it.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Then she took the pan and served him the bread, but he refused to eat.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Send everyone out of here, Amnon said.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone left him.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Don't leave.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Don't leave.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Don't turn your back on Tamar and leave her to Amnon.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: There are many other people in this room.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And someone should have said, Hey, hey, Amnon! Like, bread tastes just as good when there are other people in the room.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to be alone with Tamar.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: But a whole bunch of anonymous people turned the other way and left a space for Amnon to do his worst.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Who are you in this story?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Who are we in this story?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's some Amnon to us, but maybe there's also some Jonadab to us, maybe there's some David to us, maybe there's some anonymous servants here.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone left him.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Then Amnon said to Tamar, Bring the food here into my bedroom, so that I may eat from your hand.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And Tamar took the bread she had prepared and brought it to her brother, Amnon, in his bedroom.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: But when she took it to him to eat, he grabbed her and said, Come to bed with me, my sister.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now that is gonna drive you mad if you think about it for too long.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: But let's let's press into it just for a second.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Lie with me is the is the more literal translation.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Lie with have sex with me.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: My sister.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see what's going on?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: My sister.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: You see, you see how he is investing in and presuming upon a certain kind of attachment to Tamar.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're my sister, hey, you're my sister.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: So of course you should you should help me out when I'm ill.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for thanks for cooking the food.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's lovely.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for helping me out.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're my sister.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: We have that kind of relationship, don't we?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, we don't.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Have sex with me.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Have sex with me.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see the switch?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And do you feel the betrayal?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel the betrayal of Tamar?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: This this is what they call grooming, okay?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Grooming is building rapport with someone, building a connection, building an attachment through an innocent relationship.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and this is this is what Amnon does.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're my sister, my sister, my sister, my sister.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Lie with me, my sister.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the the twist of the knife right in the guts is sickening.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely sickening.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And what does what does Ravi do?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: What does Ravi do?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: He plays father figure to these massage therapists.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And he establishes relationships.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And he he does it with Lori Ann Thompson as well.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: He established this kind of father-daughter relationship.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's a father figure.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: He's a spiritual leader.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: He's a wise counselor, right?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he builds that rapport.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's called grooming.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: He builds that rapport, builds that rapport, builds that rapport, and then lie with me, my child.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sickening.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: My child, have sex with me.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is the way of abuse.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's the way of Amnon, it's the way of Ravi.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's have a look at the report from Miller and Martin.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Here's one witness.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: One witness told us that their relationship began as a normal massage therap uh a normal massage therapist to client relationship.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And she came to think of him as a father figure.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: He elicited information about her faith and her financial situation.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: She reported that after he arranged for the ministry to provide her with financial support, he required sex from her.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, here's this kind of relationship.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a helper, I'm a father figure, I'm a spiritual guide, and I want sex with you.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: According to this witness, Mr.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Zacharias used religious expressions to gain compliance.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: As she was raised to be a person of faith, she reported that he made her pray with him to thank God for the opportunity they both received.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're saying grace.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: He forced her to say grace before he devoured her.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what is the betrayal?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's going on.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: My child, my child, my child.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to provide for you, I'm going to protect you.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a father figure, I'm a father figure, I'm a father figure.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Lie with me, my child.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: She reported that he made her pray with him to thank God for the opportunity they both received.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: She said he called her his reward for living a life of service to God, and he re referenced the godly men in the Bible with more than one wife.
• 22:22
  unknown: Godly men.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: She said he warned her not ever to speak out against him, or she would be responsible for the millions of souls whose salvation would be lost if his reputation was damaged.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: What a snake.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: What an absolute snake.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Here's another account.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: The therapists he reportedly targeted, targeted for more than a massage, discussed the symbol of modus operandi, of building their trust and making them feel at ease.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: As one put it, he wasn't frisky initially.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Some therapists described a process that began with probing conversation and him asking about their families and backgrounds, often delving into deeply personal issues such as financial struggles or emotionally broken backgrounds.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: For example, one therapist reported that Mr.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Zacharias spent the first half of their first massage session asking about her spiritual journey and prior abuse.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, what a what a great apologist, what a great evangelist, what a great pastor at heart.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: This set her at ease and made her feel that he cared for her as a person, before he later asked her to massage his genitals.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's the betrayal, that's the grooming.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your father, I'm your spiritual father.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Lie with me, my child.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: How many days or hours was it but between that grotesque charade of spirituality and the ministry shtick that he inflicted on the world on stage?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: How many hours were between those two charades?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because both of them are charades.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Both of them.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Of course both of them are are charads.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Of course they are.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because listen.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: The spiritual father Shtick had an end goal.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: The end goal was what he really wanted.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: What he really wanted was lie with me, my child.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And given that the setup for this betrayal was precisely the establishment of this platform and this persona as a spiritual father, then of course that's fake.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's fakery all the way down.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Who are you, Ravi Zacharias?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Who are you?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: No You don't know.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody knows who Ravi Zacharias is.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: His business partner with the massage parlors.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: He he he said that Ravi had no friends.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: No friend it was all front.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And underneath there was this festering desire to lie with me, my child.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's going on.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then, Tamar, you've got to love Tamar.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: She is the only righteous person in this chapter, and she's the only woman in this chapter.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Every man is a snake in the grass.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Every man is a disgusting parody of a man in this chapter.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: She is the only person who speaks any virtue, any wisdom.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: She is beautiful, she's industrious, she's caring, she is skillful, she's compassionate.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And she's pleading for her life here.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: In six different ways, she pleads for her life.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: First, she just says don't.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that should have been the end of the matter.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just don't.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: That should have been enough for Amnon to halt his wickedness.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Don't, my brother.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now notice here, she is the only person who uses the family card correctly.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: She's the only one who plays the family card correctly.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone else uses the family card to manipulate other people in this passage.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: She's the only person who is actually pointing out her family relationships in a way that is virtuous and righteous.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Don't my brother.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Look, we are brothers.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: We might just be half-brothers, but Leviticus still stands.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Leviticus still outlaws sex with half-sisters, okay?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't my brother.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So she's she's appealing back to the law of God.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Don't force me again with the law of God.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Don't force me.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then she appeals to his sense of civic pride.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Such a thing should not be done in Israel.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then he she appeals to his sense of pride.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Don't you do this wicked thing.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Don't let this wickedness be associated with Israel.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And don't this let this wickedness be associated with you with you.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And only then does she turn to herself and she says, What about me?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: You say you love me.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: What are you doing to me?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: What about me?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Where could I get rid of my disgrace?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what about you?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: You'd be like one of the wicked fools in Israel.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then when all those pleas don't work, she then says, Okay, look, please speak to the king.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: He will not keep you from being married, keep me from being married to you.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: She's a desperate woman.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: She's the only righteous one in this whole chapter.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: He refused to listen to her.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And since he was stronger than she, he raped her.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's where it all boils down to.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: These amorous feelings that he was nursing in his heart.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm lovesick with adoration for this woman.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, the kind of love that he nursed in his heart found its fulfillment in rape.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it found its expression in a power play.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because he was stronger than her, he did with her what men who are stronger do with the women that they desire.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: He raped her.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the Holy Spirit through the scriptures does not flinch from that language.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: He raped her.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see in this chapter.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: There are others who want to minimize what happened to Tamar.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: The Holy Spirit does not want to minimize.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're a Tamar, you need to know that the Holy Spirit is not uncovering this in order to further disgrace you, but in order to name the evil.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: In order to mobilize God's people, to protect the innocent, to protect the victims, to name the harm, to bring the healing.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: But you can't do that without naming the evil.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: The Holy Spirit names the evil.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: He raped her.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Then, what a psychological insight.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Then Amnon hated her with intense hatred.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, he hated her more than he had loved her.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean this this is 3,000 years ago, this writing.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it still has the power to deliver a gut punch because it is so psychologically accurate about these men, about these abusers.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's not love.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was never love.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: That was a grotesque parody of love.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: It revealed its true colours in rape.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon had hated her all along.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: He'd always wanted to do things to her, not things for her.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: He hated her with an intense hatred.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then what does he do?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon said to her, Get up and get out.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, she said to him.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sending me away would be a greater wrong than what you have already done to me.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: There is the abuse and then there's the cover-up.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll see more and more cover-up that is necessary in this kingdom to keep the charade going.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: But there is abuse and there is cover-up.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the cover-up is a whole other order of evil.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, she said to him, sending me away would be a greater wrong than what you've already done to me.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: But he refused to listen to her.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: He, coward that he is, called his personal servant and said, Get this woman out of my sight and bolt the door after her.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Here is another person who is required in order to abuse Tamar.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just Amnon, it's not just David, it's not just Absalom, it's not just the other people in the room.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Here's this personal servant who has to forcibly remove the woman and get her away.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't help, I can't help thinking about Lori Ann Thompson.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I can't help thinking about how Ravi discarded her and how others enabled him to discard her and shut the door on her.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And what an evil that is.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: What an evil that is.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Ravi's dead.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: There are others who are alive who shut the door on Lori Ann Thompson.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Think about it from Amnon's point of view.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon crashes into Tamar's world against every barrier that she tries to erect.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then he tosses her out once he's got what he wanted.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Utter evil.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now think of Ravi.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: He consumes the people that he says he loves, and then once he's got what he wants, shuts the door.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Nondisclosure agreement.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Man, non-disclosure agreement from a Christian ministry.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, Ravi's dead, but there are others.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there are Jonadabs who came up with that idea, right?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there are Davids in authority that enacted that idea.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there are other personal servants who shut the door on Lori Ann Thompson and on the others.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't just take one bad apple to cause abuse.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole nexus of evil.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Get this woman out of my sight and bolt the door after her.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: So his servant put her out and bolted the door after her.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: She was wearing an ornate robe, for this was the kind of garment the virgin daughters of the king wore.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Tamar put ashes on her head and tore the ornate robe she was wearing.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: She put her hands on her head as she went away, weeping aloud as she went.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: This woman is desolate.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: She's been despised and she's been cast out.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: And she acts here the way David later acts when he thinks all his sons are dead.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Later in the chapter, he thinks all his sons are dead, and he puts ashes on his head and does this exact performance because this is what you do when you're mourning.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: There has been a death.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And Amnon has killed Tamar.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: He's killed her.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's made her a desolate woman.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what Lori Ann Thompson said recently in a victim impact statement.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard to read, but so necessary to hear this story.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: She said, I knew the world to be an unsafe place before I met Ravi Zacharias, but I yet had hope that there were some safe and sacred spaces.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: I no longer live with that hope.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: I trusted him, I trusted Christendom.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: That trust is irreparably and catastrophically shattered.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: I yet believe Christ, even if he be not true, as he is the highest ethic I can find.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: They, the religious elite, stripped Christ, beat him mercilessly, called him all manner of names, and publicly crucified him, too.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Even though I was a survivor before I met Az.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Having met and come to know him was one of the most traumatizing, soul destroying, faith-crushing seasons in my life.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: He tore down everything I had built and that I thought was beautiful.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: My marriage, my husband, my home, my family, my family's faith, my capacity to mother, my mental and physical health.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: What little good repute I had.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately my entire career path.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's murder, you know, it's it's rape and it's murder.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is what Amnons do.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not just Amnons.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just one bad apple.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: There is an entire nexus of evil.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so what happens next?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Here comes Absalom.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Absalom is a name that means uh the father of peace of Shalom.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Shalom, peace, right?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Here's someone who's going to bring peace, right?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Except it's a charade.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a it's a grotesque parody of peace.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: The peace that Absalom brings is not biblical peace.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's the kind of peace and quiet peace.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's the kind of hush, dear, don't make a scene, peace.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And here is someone else who abuses Tamar.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Absalom is her full brother.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Verse 20, her brother Absalom said to Tamar, has that Amnon your brother been with you?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Notice, notice the language?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Notice the minimization?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not rape.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: The Holy Spirit calls it rape.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Absalom calls it being with a person.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absalom's in this world will always want to minimize the pain of the victims.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Your brother, has your brother been with you?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Be quiet for now, my sister.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: He is your brother.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Don't take this to heart.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this poor Tamar just keeps getting reabused.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: She just keeps getting reabused.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Amnon rapes her, then shuts the door on her.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now Absalom comes and says, Don't take it to heart.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: He's your brother.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's precisely why she should take it to heart.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And he hasn't just been with her, he's raped her.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you minimizing this, Absalom, father of peace?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is not biblical peace.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is I want a quiet life, Absalom.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what Absaloms do.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Absaloms come and minimize because they're cowards.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to make a scene.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to put words to the evil of what has happened.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, keep quiet for now.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Notice that?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Be quiet for now, my sister.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Be quiet for now.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now's not the right time to make a fuss, my sister.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so Absalom is silent when it counts.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then he piles on when it's safe.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's what Absalom does.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: Later in the chapter, you can read about how two years later, when the dust has settled, Absalom gets two of his servants to do his dirty work for him, and they kill they kill Amnon in this vigilante justice, right?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: He is a parody of peace.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is not biblical peace at all.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is not justice.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: It is hush now, my dear, for now.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: It is silence when it counts.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's vigilante justice, it's pylons.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: When it's all too late, anyway.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And as you think about Absalom, you know how much Absalom is in me.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's Absalom in me.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't help reading about Absalom and not thinking about Rachel Den Hollander's tweet thread on the 13th of February.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: For every leader who has written a blog post, tweeted, commented on the steps being taken by Azed I am, how good they are, how important the truth is.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that about Azet I am Azed I am.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: They are still, they are still an anonymous board.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: We don't even know who the people are who are making the statements.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're still an anonymous board.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're still holding Laurie Ann Thompson to her non-disclosure agreement, right?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think they're handling this at at all well.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: But to those who say how good Az that I am are, how important the truth is, or how to prevent this, please hear the grief you are compounding.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: You have written about how God how good and right these steps are, but not until they were already taken.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Not until the facade was removed.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: You did not lift your voice to cry for the truth you now applaud.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: That fell on the shoulders of the victims, the women.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And wow, to the degree that the shoe fits, I think we should wear it.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why why are we piling on Ravi now?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy to pile on a dead man.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Very easy to pile on a dead man.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's very easy to play Absalom.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: To say, hush now, victims, hush for now.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: We won't listen to you now.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't really rape.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: We minimize and we silence.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then when it's safe, oh yeah, we pile on.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: We get our servants to do our dirty work for us, but we pile on like Absalom.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um to the degree that that that shoe fits, um I repent.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to pile on a man with no cost to myself.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what I am trying to do is raise the alarm for abuses that are happening right now.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because the story is not over for R Z IM.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: The story is, yeah.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: So many people online, you know, the number one response people have had online to all this abuse, I swear, on my feed.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's just the people I'm following or who follow me.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: But the people who I'm following or who follow me, the number one thing they've said in response to all this wickedness, they've said, oh, I guess they'll have to change their name now.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's your takeaway from all this.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: You that they'll have to rebrand a rebrand.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's your answer.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's like I think the opposite should happen.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I think if anyone wants to maintain that ministry with its structures and with its culture, they should be forced to call themselves the Ravi Zacharias International Ministries.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: They should be forced to wear t-shirts with Ravi's face on it, with a sign underneath saying, I'm with Ravi.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: If they want to invest in the structures and in the culture that produced this evil, they must own the name Ravi Zacharias because that's where it leads.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but people are saying they need to change the name.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: I guess they'll need to change the name now.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh goodness me.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: There needs to be root and branch reform, or just shut it down.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Just shut it down.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: And any time that a board says it's it's willing to make changes, but we don't know who the board is.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the transparency?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's exact, that's exactly the kind of distance between persona and reality that caused this in the first place.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well might you be called Ravi Zacharias International Ministries.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: If the persona is out there and the reality is hiding, yeah, call yourself Ravi.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: You keep on calling yourselves Ravi Zacharias International Ministries while the world recoils from you in horror.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to do root and branch change, I'm all ears.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: But this requires far more than a name change.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: So part of the reason, part of the reason why I'm making this video is the story is not over, even with Ravi Zacharias.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: But then a big part of the reason why I am speaking up now is that in the UK, we have our own problems.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: And let me name some of our own problems.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: There are non-disclosure agreements being forced upon workers by ministries on workers.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: I heard just last night about a church that forced the children of a church worker to sign non-disclosure agreements.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: NDAs, they belong in the world of intellectual property rights.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they're there to protect.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's not hush money.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: You don't pay hush money.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's not Christian.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Anyone, anyone involved, you tell me, you tell me what good reason there is for a Christian ministry or Christian church to make people sign NDAs.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: You tell me one good I can't think of one.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm all ears.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Let me know.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm all ears.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's stuff like that happening.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's stuff happening that when abuse is alleged, organizations spend more money on PR and marketing firms than they do on addressing the victims or seeking justice.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: The reason to name this stuff now is that it is ongoing and it is not over.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we have not identified the one bad apple.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because it takes many people to abuse the Tamar, not just Amnon.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: It takes David, it takes Jonadab, it takes the servants, it takes Absalom.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of David, when King David heard all this, he was furious, and dot dot dot.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: What do you what do you expect verse 22 to say?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: When King David heard all this, he was furious, and he raced to his daughter and comforted her every way he knew how.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: He did all he could to restore her integrity with the community.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: He went to Amnon and he brought justice to that wicked prince.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is that David was furious and and does nothing.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: And Absalom never said a word to Amnon, either good or bad.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: He hated Amnon because he disgraced his sister Tamar.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: David is David is the man in authority and he does nothing.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: He's the king, he has authority, he has responsibility, and he's her dad, and he does nothing.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's Adam all over again.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely impotent.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: While his bride is harmed.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: The impotence and the abdication of responsibility is disgusting.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it takes all of these things in order to abuse Tamar.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: So who who are we in all this?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: Who are we?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was a tweet that was piled on massively by a certain tweeter, and he said, you know, everybody who you know looks at the Ravi Zacharias story, they they need to realize that you know you're just a heartbeat away from the evil that Ravi committed, and and everybody, everybody is a possible Ravi.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it was it was that kind of tweet.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: And understandably, from one point of view, everybody piled on him and and mocked it.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then they were like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: The other day, I almost accidentally bought a massage parlor in which I could traffic women for sex.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know how you do that, right?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: You um easy mistake to make.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and people people mocked it because they're There is a sense in which there is a grotesque evil, and not everyone is a Ravi, and not everyone is an Amnon.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: But the whole point of this is that, okay, maybe there's more Amnon to you than you are willing to admit.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's worth saying that.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't just take an Amnon to rape a Tamar.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a Jonadab, it takes an Absalom, it takes a David, it takes all these anonymous people and these personal servants who do the bidding of wicked men.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a whole culture of evil to perpetrate this rape.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: And who are you?
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Who are we?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is depressing, isn't it?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um is there is there any good news?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um let me just let me just finish by looking at some good news that Laurianne herself pointed to.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Remember what she said?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: She said, I yet believe Christ, even if he be not true.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: As he is the highest ethic I can find.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: They, the religious elite, stripped him, beat him mercilessly, called him all manner of names, and publicly crucified him too.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Where do victims find relief and peace?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: With the victim.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: The victim who stands with victims.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, think of John chapter 8, you know, the famous scene of the woman caught in adultery, and you have a whole bunch of very holy-looking men who grab the woman and bring her to Jesus.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, the big question is, where's the man?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the man?
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: They don't care about justice.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're using her as a trap.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: So not only do they want to victimize her, they want to victimize Jesus, and in so doing, they bring together the most beautiful alliance.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Two victims.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because they say we should stone her.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: And ironically, by the end of John chapter 8, they say we should stone Jesus too.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Here is the victim par excellence coming to protect this woman.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone, and they all go away.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I do think that Jesus is pointing out some very concrete evil in these men.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: He's not just saying, you know, who has not in the past looked with lust upon a woman, you know, in a fleet of madness?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think he is saying, who has not engaged in this kind of evil?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's looking out at some of the holiest-looking people on planet earth, and he's he sees other adulterers there.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they all leave, and now she stands with Jesus, the one person she can trust.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: The one person she can trust, who himself was stripped and flogged, and spit upon and reviled and crucified for her.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're a victim, you won't find you won't find any consolation, like the consolation of Jesus.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: You you you can't find any consolation because Jesus is the victor, the the victim who became victor.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: That is the whole story.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: He became the victim on that cross and rose up as the victor, and he's he's now established a kingdom in which the victim ought to be prized, protected, loved.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: Not like in that wicked kingdom of David.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: So let me just finish with Isaiah 9.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because here's what the kingdom of David is meant to look like, here's what the kingdom of this earth is meant to look like.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: With a totally different kind of man, a man unlike anything the world has ever seen.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders, hallelujah, on his shoulders, not on the shoulders of wicked men.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he will be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's a wonderful counselor, not like that Jonadab.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: He is a mighty God, exercising authority for the blessing and good of his subjects, not like King David.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: He's an everlasting father, he's a constant lover, not like unfaithful Amnon.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: And he's a prince of peace, bringing true justice and righteousness and reconciliation, not like that coward Absalom.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he will establish the kingdom.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Verse 7 goes on to say, and he will establish David's throne, upholding it with righteousness and justice from that time on and forever.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: There has been there has been a kingdom that has grown with Jesus at its center.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: A kingdom that imperfectly models Jesus, but has to some degree begun to reign, to uphold righteousness and justice.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the church is meant to be a place where King Jesus reigns in righteousness and justice, in which there is a safe place for victims, in which strong men do not use their power to abuse those without it, in which the strong use their authority only in order to bless and serve the weak, the poor, the marginalized.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the church has been built.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Over twenty centuries there has been, there has been a place, I know it has disappointed us so much.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: The church can disappoint us so monumentally.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: But we can't do without it.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: We can't do without it.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we can't we can't do without the the sustenance of church family.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, maybe abuse scandals are a bit like food poisoning.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the food poisoning makes us think we could never return to church.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: I could never return to church.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was abused by the people who were meant to model Christ to me, and the betrayal is too much.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I totally understand that in the same way.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: I totally understand how after food poisoning you might not want to go back and eat.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: But you've got to at some stage.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the Christian view of sex and marriage and fidelity and love and service has overturned the ways of men.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: It really has.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what do you call 2 Samuel 13 when placed in any other book, in any other culture?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: In any other culture, you call it business as usual.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Think of the Greco-Roman world in which the church started going, right?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Think of the Greco-Roman world.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: There were 25 words for prostitute in Latin.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: The sexual economy is built on the systematic exploitation of women and children.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: A terrifying place to live.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Men constantly using their power in order to sexually exploit their inferiors.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: That is the world everywhere, universally, except with Christ and except with the kingdom that he has been building.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, I know we get it wrong.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know we do.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it is worse when we get it wrong than when the rest of the world gets it wrong.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can point to all the other sex abuse scandals, and when I say that all the other sex abuse scandals are business as usual, it's not a whataboutism, okay?
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's to say that abuse scandals within the church are the most heinous because they are sins against Christ who is the opposite of this way.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what other hope do we have?
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Where else do we go?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: So for the Laureans of this world, keep clinging to that Christ, keep clinging to him, the victim who became a victim for all victims, and who rises up to bring a kingdom of righteousness and justice.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: And for Christians, we must work to uphold that righteousness and justice in the church.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: We must be a safe place.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: We must use our power in order to serve.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: We must discipline our desires.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: We must be a place where the persona and the reality are not like this, but where we project who we are, we project who Christ is out to the world.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Then there needs to be that.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Friends, I've gone on far too long, but there's so much more to say.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we'll be saying more about it on this channel.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: Do subscribe to Speak Life.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we have interviews with people coming up who know a lot more about this topic than I do, but I hope that going back to Scripture has been helpful.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do cling not to the unrighteous Jonadab and Absalom and Amnon and David.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do cling to the wonderful counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because with Jesus there is true security.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: God bless you.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that'll do us on the Speak Life Podcast for this week.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you've enjoyed that episode.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have any questions or comments or feedback, please email us at infospeaklife.org.uk.
• 53:45
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• 53:47
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• 53:50
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• 53:54
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• 53:55
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• 54:01
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• 54:04
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• 54:08
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• 54:13
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• 54:21
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• 54:26
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• 54:32
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• 54:38
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• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that'll do us for this episode.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time on the Speak Life Podcast.