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Generational Friction Is Costing You Millions · Speak In Flow

• 0:02
  Melinda Lee: Welcome, dear listeners, to the Speak and Flow podcast, where we slow things down just a bit to help you communicate with clarity and confidence.
• 0:13
  Melinda Lee: Each episode is just 20 minutes long. We're going to give you some practical communication tips in response to current events that are happening at your work and in your world.
• 0:24
  Melinda Lee: Today, we're talking about communication within generations, so generational disconnect and conflict at the workplace.
• 0:34
  Melinda Lee: Did you know that
• 0:36
  Melinda Lee: organizations are losing around $56 billion in productivity because of generational disconnect, as new research has shown.
• 0:46
  Melinda Lee: And so today's conversation, I brought to you an expert. He's a trial and litigation attorney and partner at Hans Lozier & Parks.
• 0:58
  Melinda Lee: Welcome, Gabe. Right. Hi, Gabe.
• 1:02
  Gabe Wright: Hi, Melinda, thanks for having me.
• 1:04
  Melinda Lee: Thanks so much for joining! And so, I'm gonna launch with this one first question. When someone listens to this episode, what do you hope that they can change in their lives?
• 1:17
  Gabe Wright: I would think that the biggest takeaway I would want a listener to have after listening to this conversation is, you know, some tools and strategies for talking and bridging the gap between generations
• 1:31
  Gabe Wright: when they're communicating with each other. You know, with the younger generations coming in, and Gen X, and the Boomers being in a different slot, that bridge is getting wider, and we need to connect it.
• 1:44
  Melinda Lee: I love that. And you're experiencing that at the law firm, and you have a nationwide law firm that supports complex litigation, and you're seeing that happen. And so, before we jump into that, can you share with the audience a little bit more about yourself and your background?
• 2:00
  Gabe Wright: Sure, I am a, as you noted, I'm a litigation and trial attorney and a partner at my law firm. I've been doing it for about 25 years. In my current firm, I've served in a number of roles, including my firm's diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee.
• 2:17
  Gabe Wright: I have served as the litigation Area Chair for the San Diego office, which is where I'm located, and I presently serve on the board of directors for my firm. So, those experiences have given me a unique perspective on dealing with the generational differences in my office and organization.
• 2:42
  Melinda Lee: And so, as you,
• 2:44
  Melinda Lee: are working in the law firm, and you're seeing more, younger work, younger generations come into the law firm. How has that changed the culture, or the organization?
• 2:56
  Gabe Wright: So, I think you start where the older generations are, which is…
• 3:02
  Gabe Wright: you know, even when I came on board as an attorney 25 years ago, the concept was, this is my first and last job, I'm gonna stay here, die at my desk, get my gold watch, you know, right before I go, kind of thing, if I manage to retire. And the younger… you worked, and it was just…
• 3:22
  Gabe Wright: Something you did.
• 3:24
  Gabe Wright: You know, everyone's just committed to doing the job. And the younger generations that are coming in have a different value system.
• 3:32
  Melinda Lee: Okay? And that value system really involves, they prioritize a work-life balance.
• 3:39
  Gabe Wright: Okay? But at the same time, the economic pressures that we're feeling in society, the ever-distant goal now of wanting to buy a house or a condo is becoming harder, they're also very financial driven, and so this commitment to the organization that you start with is not necessarily there, and they're more focused on
• 4:03
  Gabe Wright: Making as much money as possible.
• 4:06
  Gabe Wright: The work-life balance that they…
• 4:08
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 4:09
  Melinda Lee: Which is very different from the previous generation's culture, and that's just… we put in the time, we've put in the effort, we put in the years and the blood, sweat, and tears before we get this money and upgrade, financially. And so, how have you, seen that communication play out within the organization?
• 4:30
  Gabe Wright: So, it… it becomes difficult, and we can… we can go in a number of directions with this, okay? And so… so…
• 4:38
  Gabe Wright: I guess I'll go with 3 things here. Number one.
• 4:43
  Gabe Wright: the younger generations, interestingly, want… they want guideposts. They want benchmarks, okay, which is not something that we historically have relied on.
• 4:53
  Gabe Wright: It's about bringing the whole person and giving your all. So, they want you to give them those benchmarks to shoot for, which is… as opposed to the flexibility that we've used to have. At the same time, they're not as open to criticism, directness, and so…
• 5:13
  Gabe Wright: delivering the message, when there is a difference requires a little bit of finesse. And then the third thing is that, I think that they're coming in with, sort of less of a practical understanding of how business works.
• 5:32
  Gabe Wright: And the operations of the business.
• 5:35
  Gabe Wright: And so, having… having direct conversations with them, not implementation of policies to try and control them, but more having direct conversations with them about the organization, how the organization works, is, I think, what creates buy-in.
• 5:54
  Gabe Wright: It helps to ameliorate those generational differences.
• 5:57
  Melinda Lee: and have you… it sounds like you're highly emotional intelligent, but across the board with the law firm, have you seen people leave because there's this communication gap or generational gap?
• 6:11
  Melinda Lee: Or do you think people are frustrated, or they're just not as productive?
• 6:15
  Gabe Wright: So, I'm not going to speak to my firm specifically, okay?
• 6:19
  Gabe Wright: Okay. But I will speak to what you're hearing in the legal community, okay? Yeah. And I think that the legal community… there is a frustration by the older generations of the lack of commitment
• 6:37
  Gabe Wright: from the younger generations, I think that there is a higher, what we call attrition rate, where… where younger… the younger attorneys are much more willing to move. They're… they're, you know.
• 6:50
  Gabe Wright: 10 years ago, if somebody had made 3 moves in the first 5 years of their career as a lawyer.
• 6:57
  Gabe Wright: they were a questionable hire. Now it's an ex… it's one of those acceptable practices, because you know that they're making those jumps in order to try and increase their compensation and position.
• 7:10
  Melinda Lee: Hmm.
• 7:11
  Melinda Lee: But you do question, though, they're making the jumps because they're switching out law firms, but then, are they really learning? Are they… are they just quitting before they're really getting the experience?
• 7:25
  Gabe Wright: So one of the interesting things, and I think that this is a big factor, is a lot of the societal things and the historic things that have happened to us in the last 10 years.
• 7:35
  Gabe Wright: And so, this generation is… they've gone through this really economic
• 7:41
  Gabe Wright: recession, the Great Recession in the 2008, 2009, 2010 time period. They went through COVID, and…
• 7:49
  Melinda Lee: Hmm?
• 7:49
  Gabe Wright: And those events… had impacts on them professionally. They…
• 7:55
  Gabe Wright: jobs were hard to find, so they were coming in at lower compensation levels, because they just wanted to get their foot in the door, and then a lot of them risked losing their jobs when COVID hit. Some law firms
• 8:11
  Gabe Wright: really knee-jerked, and just laid people off. And,
• 8:16
  Gabe Wright: Our organization didn't. We managed to keep our people in place, but,
• 8:21
  Gabe Wright: And so, there's a justification for the moves they're making. But I agree with you, this… this…
• 8:28
  Gabe Wright: this constant moving, I think, does affect…
• 8:31
  Melinda Lee: long-term professionally, because the way I see it is, the practice of law…
• 8:36
  Gabe Wright: is an apprenticeship.
• 8:38
  Gabe Wright: Okay? You're no different than Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo. Like, you've got to be with the masters and learn the process, and as you stick with your person, you develop as an attorney, and these rapid moves for money, while they will get you incrementally more money, I'm not sure.
• 8:57
  Gabe Wright: The long play really works.
• 8:58
  Melinda Lee: And how does the AI factor into this? Are you seeing the younger generation adopt it faster, and the older previous generations not as quickly? How does that impact the organization?
• 9:13
  Gabe Wright: I'm sorry, I missed that question, can you…
• 9:14
  Melinda Lee: AI… how's AI impacting the firm? Are the younger generations… who's adopting it faster, and is it supporting the organization with revenue generation?
• 9:25
  Gabe Wright: The younger generations by a long shot.
• 9:27
  Melinda Lee: By a long shot.
• 9:28
  Gabe Wright: Yeah, yeah, and I think that the older generations are suspicious of it, and, and
• 9:38
  Gabe Wright: I think, you know, and you can see it in news articles that come out, are not effectively deploying it, so you get a.
• 9:46
  Melinda Lee: busy.
• 9:46
  Gabe Wright: getting sanctioned by courts for what we call AI hallucinations, citing cases that don't exist.
• 9:53
  Gabe Wright: And things like that, whereas the younger generation absolutely knows how to leverage it, knows really how to speed things up. And I think that that is, like, the key place
• 10:06
  Gabe Wright: Where the younger generation really is the future.
• 10:11
  Gabe Wright: because of their adaptability and their willingness to adopt AI into their workflows. And, you know, but sometimes I wonder if it also, you know, almost puts them out of the job.
• 10:27
  Gabe Wright: In this.
• 10:28
  Melinda Lee: You know, what may have taken three associates to do, I can, you know, I can do with one who knows how to leverage AI. Yes, yes.
• 10:38
  Melinda Lee: And that'll be… probably true.
• 10:41
  Melinda Lee: But then I think that the person that, yeah, adopts quickly on how to use it with their emotional intelligence, with their communication skills, can rise to the top.
• 10:53
  Gabe Wright: And that's… I think that that… that statement is key.
• 10:59
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 10:59
  Gabe Wright: I'm concerned, because…
• 11:01
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 11:01
  Gabe Wright: The use of AI, one of the things the younger generation does is they also rely on more informal lines of communication.
• 11:10
  Gabe Wright: They're more willing to text you, they're more willing.
• 11:13
  Gabe Wright: via email, and I think the face-to-face conversation…
• 11:21
  Gabe Wright: Even picking up the phone and making a phone call.
• 11:23
  Melinda Lee: Right.
• 11:24
  Gabe Wright: is becoming a lost art, and so I think you've absolutely nailed it, that as they leverage AI to their advantage, being able to have that emotional intelligence, that ability to sit down with somebody and have a face-to-face conversation, that's where you're going to see your future leaders arise.
• 11:40
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 11:41
  Melinda Lee: And how does it impact the older generation with working with the younger generation?
• 11:47
  Melinda Lee: But they don't agree.
• 11:49
  Gabe Wright: In terms of.
• 11:49
  Melinda Lee: In terms of AI.
• 11:51
  Gabe Wright: So, suspicion is where it is, because… Right.
• 11:55
  Gabe Wright: where I think that the blind spot or a weakness for the younger generation is, is that
• 12:02
  Gabe Wright: they… they lean on AI as almost the gospel, okay?
• 12:08
  Gabe Wright: So, hey, running through the AI engine, this is what it's saying, or this is what it's aggregated, and then somebody like me, who's got a ton of experience, can look at what they've produced and go.
• 12:20
  Gabe Wright: It actually… there's a miss here.
• 12:23
  Gabe Wright: It's not quoting this right, it doesn't… it's not interpreting the statute correctly, so…
• 12:30
  Gabe Wright: They need to… they need to learn to leverage, you know, it's like trust but verify.
• 12:37
  Gabe Wright: You know, yes, it is a faster way to do it, but it is not entirely a reliable way to do it.
• 12:44
  Melinda Lee: Interesting.
• 12:45
  Gabe Wright: The stuff to use your brain.
• 12:47
  Gabe Wright: And and AI, you know, at least to date, one thing that AI can't do is read the room.
• 12:56
  Gabe Wright: And that's an important function, I think, you know, not just in my practice and in what we do as lawyers, but in any business.
• 13:03
  Melinda Lee: and…
• 13:04
  Gabe Wright: You know, you've got to be able to read the room, know who you're dealing with.
• 13:07
  Melinda Lee: And that always plays into, you know, your communications, your objectives, your good tools.
• 13:14
  Gabe Wright: And and AI's just not gonna cover that.
• 13:18
  Melinda Lee: and when does it become a legal risk? Is that when it becomes legal risk for the organization? When the younger generation is using AI in this fashion?
• 13:30
  Melinda Lee: Un…
• 13:31
  Gabe Wright: Yeah, and that's really a big, a big concern that we have, and why I think you've seen some relatively slow adoption to AI.
• 13:40
  Melinda Lee: Because we're trying.
• 13:42
  Gabe Wright: throughout the boundaries, because the young generation's, you know, exclusive, exclusive reliance on this.
• 13:50
  Gabe Wright: results in an increased risk of error. And in our profession, that error can be really consequential.
• 13:59
  Melinda Lee: Exactly.
• 14:01
  Melinda Lee: Exactly.
• 14:03
  Melinda Lee: And how do you teach the younger generation the art of reading the room?
• 14:10
  Melinda Lee: communication skills.
• 14:13
  Gabe Wright: So, this… I think this leads into, another sort of generational difference aspect, which is this… the concept of work from home.
• 14:22
  Gabe Wright: Okay.
• 14:25
  Gabe Wright: And, when you work from home, and, like, we're able to have this conversation here on a podcast, but one of the things that… that tends to get lost, even just when you're doing video, is… is being able to take the temperature to be able to, in real time,
• 14:44
  Gabe Wright: be able to discuss how things are playing out or working out. And so, you know, what I've done is, with the attorneys that work with me, they sit in on my phone calls with opposing.
• 15:01
  Gabe Wright: clients.
• 15:02
  Gabe Wright: They sit in on depositions and meetings, and that allows for, in those down times when we're taking a break, when the mediator leaves the room, when we get off the phone with the other person, this
• 15:13
  Gabe Wright: discussion, this debrief about, okay, do you understand why I did it this way? Do you understand why I made that pivot? Do you understand why I raised my voice, or took a step back?
• 15:25
  Gabe Wright: And explaining that to them, because it's having that context from those of us that have had to do it face-to-face for the better part of our careers is what is educating them, and that's what makes it an apprenticeship. You've got to bring them in
• 15:41
  Gabe Wright: On your decision-making process in order to help them develop that emotional intelligence and the ability to read the room.
• 15:49
  Melinda Lee: And that can take a long time, going back to what you're saying, especially the values that they have, they're coming in, they want to rise to the top, they want to have financial stability, and then… and then they also want to have work-life balance. All of these skills do require, experience.
• 16:08
  Melinda Lee: And boots on the ground, and debrief, like you mentioned, and thinking about all the complexities, and different ways to respond to people, and how they're reacting.
• 16:19
  Gabe Wright: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 16:22
  Melinda Lee: And so when you say to them, this is a reason why you're not XYZ making this much money.
• 16:28
  Gabe Wright: Whoa.
• 16:29
  Melinda Lee: What would they say?
• 16:30
  Gabe Wright: Well, so that's… that's probably the biggest conversation I have with them, okay?
• 16:35
  Melinda Lee: Hmm.
• 16:36
  Gabe Wright: And… and what I have found is…
• 16:41
  Gabe Wright: that, you know, not necessarily carrying the flag of the organization or pushing organizational culture is what gets the younger generation to buy in, but helping them understand, sort of, their context in the organization. And so, that involves
• 16:58
  Gabe Wright: For me, an explanation of financials, okay?
• 17:02
  Gabe Wright: And it's not, you know, hey, opening up the books and saying, here are the books, here's what goes on.
• 17:07
  Gabe Wright: But what I have found is, you know, they understandably come in and say, hey, you know, I want to be able to come in at this time and leave at this time, not have to work on the weekends, you know, I want my guaranteed vacation time, all these other things. But I also want to make as much money as you, Gabe, and…
• 17:24
  Gabe Wright: And… and what winds up happening is a conversation about financials, and I will say to them, okay, you know, here's… here's how much money we can make on you when you.
• 17:36
  Gabe Wright: what you do the way you do it. And, you know, here, there are… there are org… there's organizational overhead, and all of these other factors that I have to keep in mind, the taxes that we have to pay, the health insurance we're covering for you, all of those things. And then, I get them to agree.
• 17:54
  Gabe Wright: As an organization, we do have to operate in a profit, right? Yeah, yeah, we do. Okay, so taking all that into consideration.
• 18:02
  Gabe Wright: If you go… if you made as much as me.
• 18:06
  Gabe Wright: Where does that land the organization? And…
• 18:10
  Gabe Wright: Supreme I would say 100% of the time, in 100% of these conversations, the light bulb goes off.
• 18:16
  Melinda Lee: Beautiful.
• 18:17
  Gabe Wright: I see. If I want to make more money, I have to contribute more, I have to be more invested.
• 18:24
  Gabe Wright: I have to, you know, elevate what I'm bringing to the table, and and they get it, and they get how they operate. And then there's a flowback from them, which I think is important, and which is why this conversation winds up being valuable to me, because they'll look at me and say, oh, okay, I understand that.
• 18:44
  Gabe Wright: And… and I see what you're saying, but I think that…
• 18:48
  Gabe Wright: For example, you could raise my rate higher.
• 18:52
  Gabe Wright: And we'll talk about that, and I've had that conversation, and we've gone back, and we've…
• 18:59
  Gabe Wright: Whole clients, we're moving this person's rate up, and now it's generating more revenue for the firm, which enables me to meet their needs in terms of.
• 19:08
  Gabe Wright: Compensation, what they're looking for.
• 19:12
  Melinda Lee: Wow, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of… because you're also handling complex litigation, and then you're also bringing up this newer generation, workforce.
• 19:24
  Melinda Lee: And it… it's a balance of both, it's multifaceted here.
• 19:29
  Gabe Wright: It is in the role, I think, that,
• 19:33
  Gabe Wright: you know, when you do what I've done for as long as I've done it,
• 19:38
  Gabe Wright: it becomes the new normal, but I really…
• 19:41
  Melinda Lee: and…
• 19:41
  Gabe Wright: it's… I think to be a successful organization, it's not just about money, it's about buy-in with your employees.
• 19:50
  Gabe Wright: Yeah, I agree. And so, the time is worth it.
• 19:55
  Gabe Wright: to be able to sit down with these people, and have these conversations, and understand, because I'm gonna be here forever, you know? But my goal is to retire at some point, and…
• 20:07
  Melinda Lee: Thank you.
• 20:07
  Gabe Wright: We've got to groom the future leaders.
• 20:10
  Melinda Lee: Right, right. I agree. I mean, if there are gonna be our leaders.
• 20:15
  Melinda Lee: It is going to require that time to groom them and… and try to find some compromise or ways to talk to each other and communicate with each other, so that you could bridge the gap and move forward together as an organization.
• 20:33
  Gabe Wright: Absolutely.
• 20:35
  Melinda Lee: That's a wonderful… thank you so much for your conversation and your insight and experience, and last question, what do you want
• 20:45
  Melinda Lee: our listeners to take away. What is that one key takeaway?
• 20:49
  Gabe Wright: Ugh.
• 20:53
  Gabe Wright: Face to face.
• 20:54
  Melinda Lee: That is probably the most key takeaway.
• 20:58
  Gabe Wright: you're not going to bridge this gap through email. You're not going to bridge this gap through new policies or rules. You're going to bridge this gap through a conversation. Yeah. Sit down with them, take them out the coffee.
• 21:14
  Gabe Wright: have these open meetings where they can provide their own questions and feedback, and that is going to be…
• 21:23
  Melinda Lee: The quickest way to get an understanding.
• 21:26
  Gabe Wright: To get… and to get buy-in, for your orders.
• 21:29
  Melinda Lee: Sweet.
• 21:29
  Gabe Wright: And, and bring those generations together.
• 21:32
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 21:33
  Melinda Lee: There's something about face-to-face.
• 21:35
  Gabe Wright: Absolutely.
• 21:36
  Melinda Lee: That even if you're from a different generation, there's a connection, and then you're able to hopefully some way, as long as there's trust and respect for each other, find a way forward.
• 21:48
  Gabe Wright: you're dealing with humans. I mean…
• 21:49
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 21:50
  Gabe Wright: That's… it's about making that connection.
• 21:54
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 21:54
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 21:56
  Melinda Lee: Well, thank you so much, Gabe. It was a wonderful conversation.
• 21:59
  Gabe Wright: Thank you, Melinda. Thanks for having me.
• 22:01
  Melinda Lee: I learned a lot, and really sitting down to think about what it means to have these generations within the workforce, and how do we communicate with each other more effectively to… toward a common goal.
• 22:13
  Gabe Wright: Yeah.
• 22:15
  Melinda Lee: Thank you. And thank you, listeners, for joining. I trust that you got your takeaway for today, and remember, anytime you have a chance to communicate, you also have an opportunity to move us forward in a positive direction, and until next time, take care.
• 22:32
  Melinda Lee: Bye-bye.
• 22:41
  Melinda Lee: Oh, fairness.