Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / Episode #2: Grace, Belief, and Unbelief

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Episode #2: Grace, Belief, and Unbelief · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:01
  Thank you.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everyone.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Tim Wright here along with Miss Terry Summers.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hello.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: We are here with the Deep Grace Diving Podcast with Tim Wright and Terry Summers.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Terry, before we dive into the topic for today, we didn't really do this last week a lot.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about you, your background.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: You were at one time Arizona Actress of the Year.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: When was that back in 1961?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my, you have not forgotten.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I am an actress for a living and I've,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I have worked professionally in just about every area of the entertainment industry,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of voiceover work,
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: some film and television in smaller capacities and,
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: quite a bit of theater.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: I also do quote unquote speaking with a comedic bent using character driven comedy.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I write and my connection with you came about one being a speaker for a youth
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: camp in the winter,
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: a winter retreat for some of the student ministry that was happening at Community
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Church of Joy and
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: back in the day.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then that connected us together.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then I sort of became a support to your ministry with writing creatively and
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: producing things that were inspired by you.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I do speaking in school.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: So all around, I think I'm a communicator in so many words with a
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: with a um dramatic slash comedic bent did that you think that covered it sure sure
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: uh who would you say uh is the actor uh that you've met that would just sort of you
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: were gobsmacked actor um well actress somebody that we might know yeah yeah yeah um
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: well two right away to, um, two individuals come to mind that may have more to do with the situation.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one is Charlie Sheen.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's probably going to be a surprise.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: but it was back in the day when he was,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: having some rough press,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: but he and I were set up to be in the makeup chair together in,
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: it was a film called terminal velocity.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And, um,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was told, leave him alone.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So when he came in, he was sitting right next to me and I didn't even look over.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it was against everything in me,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: which I am a,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: how you doing person to the person ahead of me in the grocery store.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So this was really hard not to say anything, but they just painted pictures of,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know, leave them alone.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: They'll, they'll, they'll have a problem with you.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: You'll lose your job.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: finally I could see him in the mirrors looking over at me and he was,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: he says,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say hello first.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Oh Lord, I just felt like such a geek, but he was one of the most
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: genuine and um super supportive of me so any of the scenes that we were working on
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: together in between like a camera change or what have you he made a beeline right
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: to me to say like he heard tones in my lines and would say i love that and blah
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: blah blah so i'd have to say that and then the other one and i'm not name dropping
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: but maybe a little bit
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is when I went through a very wild,
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: which you were very much involved in Oprah Winfrey experience back when she was
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: starting her network and she was searching for some talent and we were in a,
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: show called uh your own show but anyway she maybe was a little uh what we feel like
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: oprah-ish you know there was like a grandness about her not terribly engaging or
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: warm but she had a lot of of people that she was dealing with and uh
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it got down to me and a couple people.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: I made the finals.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she sat across from me.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Our knees were almost touching.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And she, again, was so warm.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: While I'm speaking to her, I thought, this is why.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: you're Oprah Winfrey.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is the part of her that,
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: and yet,
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: quite powerful in the industry,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: but as a person,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: all of that fell away.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the two that came to mind,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: but I've just been really blessed with,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just did,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just shot a commercial that's going to play here in Arizona with the baseball legend,
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Randy Johnson.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: He was someone they did say, leave him alone.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't read that part of my contract.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so right off the bat, I was Terry Summers in a little big way.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: But he was, you know, I told him that my brother loved him.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like a geek saying that.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like a kid saying, can you sign this for my brother?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And he sort of looked at me and said, he loves you.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I'm sure you've never heard that.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And he tilted his head in a way like this.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: he'd heard it,
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: but he said something also so human and genuine,
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: which I have a human and genuine meter.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he said it is this far away from my heyday.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it'd been 14 years or something.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: He said, he said, it is so good to have people still say that.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it took the geek meter down for me a little bit that he, he responded that way.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: But, um,
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I am someone who loves stars and stardom, and I've had opportunity to work.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not famous, but I've been a successful in that I've worked over the decades.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I am never not starstruck,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: and appreciate who somebody is based on their work and the attention the industry
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: has given them.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're glad that you're a part of our show with us.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is going to, I mean, you're going to just skyrocket now.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Anticipate that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right behind you, in your wake.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So for, you know, my wife is listening.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got like three or four of us.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not even sure she's listening, to be honest about it.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Terry, we are talking about all things grace.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to use this podcast to wrestle with what grace really looks like,
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: to do some deep diving into grace and the implications of what grace means.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're going to kind of get us started today.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: You've got the question, and then we'll kind of work together on it.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: we talked about a couple of things, but, um, let's do the one about, uh, belief and grace.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I, I work in an industry that is, um, not always.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And, and frankly, probably rightly so real up for, um, hearing about, uh,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that many times, um, that they come from a perspective of unbelief.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the question that,
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: that resonates so much with me is what if God's grace,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love the,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: what if,
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: what if God's grace is stronger than unbelief?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And, um,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Knowing that we're created with choice and the ability to live our life out as we wish,
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: no one's making us do anything.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Can you kind of speak to that?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: I feel not in any way apologetic,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: but I guess maybe sometimes a little bit cautious in ways in which I might share my faith.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very comfortable living my faith out, you know, like living and loving.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that is something, I can fill that lane out.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of addressing a specific level of unbelief,
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's why that question resonates with me so much.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what if God's grace is stronger than that, supersedes that?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there are a lot of levels to this question that people wrestle with.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start first with this whole question of how a person is, quote unquote, saved.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so we live sort of the predominant theological viewpoint in the United States
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: of America is conservative evangelicalism.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And what we would call decision-based theology,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: that you need to make a decision to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's how I grew up.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if we don't accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior,
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: then we will...
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if we die refusing to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: we'll spend an eternity burning in the fires of hell.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And there are...
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: some things if you, depending on how you read them in scripture, that would suggest that.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: But the,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: the problem with that theology is first of all,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus never anywhere in the gospels,
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: as far as we know,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: said,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: you need to accept me as your personal Lord and savior.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't use that language at all.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: What Jesus said was follow me.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so when Jesus says, follow me,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: that comes as a response to God's grace.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if he's already chosen you to follow, right?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's not saying, you know, make a decision to follow me and I'll be your savior.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: He's saying, I chose you, so follow me.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the starting point isn't my decision, it's God's decision for me.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so the question is,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: and this is where Christians get really uncomfortable.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: What if my salvation isn't based at all on any decisions that I make?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's based completely on God's decision for me.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the decision that he made for me is that he loves me and he saves me through
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus and his death and resurrection.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: So as an example, years, years ago, I was working as a janitor during college and,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I was cleaning a building, and the security guard was reading his Bible.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I asked him a little bit about it.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he was a very, very conservative Baptist guy, which is fine.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: We got along fine for as little as we talked.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: But his first question to me was, when did you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: When were you saved, right?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I was saved 2,000 years ago when Jesus died on the cross for me.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: because that's what saved me.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't my decision or any decision.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was God's decision.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: When Jesus died on the cross, God made a decision for me.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so part of what happens is if we start with my decision that leads to grace,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always having to do something to make sure that I'm saved enough.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: So did I pray the prayer correctly?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Did I use the right language?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Did I really mean it?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: those of us,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: and I kind of grew up in an environment like this for a while where the churches
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: gave altar calls on Sunday morning.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you'd see the same people going up every week because they were just never sure.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is my decision enough?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is my decision enough?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or, and, or saying, like you said, uh,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: praying the prayer, well, one more time.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just pray it one more time.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: My husband has even said that.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to pray it one more time, just to be sure.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: But it comes from that angle that you just expressed.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: The starting point isn't God's grace.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: The starting point is my decision.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that leads then to all kinds of challenges.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: If the starting point is God's grace,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: if the starting point is that God made a decision for all of us through the death
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: and resurrection of Jesus,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: then so it's like we talked about last time it's because therefore because jesus
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: made a decision for me i can now believe in jesus and follow him my belief does not
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: god cause god to move in any way shape or form god's belief in me causes me to move
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: um
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the question... Say that one more time.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's not my belief that causes God to move toward me.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's God's belief in me that moves me to God.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Draws me to God.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or actually, the reality is God's already moved toward me.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: So think of it this way.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: When I look at an airplane flying through the air... Okay.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely impossible to see that thing that weighs so much up in the air, right?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: So when I sit on an airplane, it is not my faith or belief in the plane that makes it fly.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's the fact that the plane flies that I believe in it.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Or when I sit down on a chair,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not my faith that holds me up.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's the faithfulness of the chair that holds me up.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: I sit in the chair because I know the chair is faithful.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: My faith has nothing to do with it.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So faith always begins, belief always begins with God.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: We can't believe in God unless God believes in us.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's a gift that comes to us.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if you tease that out,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: then there are those who would say,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: and I used to believe this,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: at least in part,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: that if someone dies in unbelief,
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: rejecting Jesus,
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: that they will spend an eternity in hell.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: But what if God isn't bound by time or space?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: What if God's love pursues us wherever we are and that God's love is so
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: irresistible eventually it's going to win us over?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: That God's grace is stronger than my unbelief?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's mind-blowing.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I have come alongside that in my adult life,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: like we mentioned in our first episode,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: the last one,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: that this was something I didn't really embrace until my adult years,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: hearing it first at that angle from you.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Not angle, but in the freshness of it and the truth of it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So when...
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: and I really am not so good at quoting scripture,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: but the essence of Jesus saying,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I am the way,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: the truth,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: and the life.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: No man comes to the Father but by me.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: That, in my history, was a decision-making prompt.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: However, sharing from
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: the perspective that it was already there, that he, that saying that, that he provided that, that he is.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So here,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: instead of me stumbling over my words,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: can you pick up that from where I know you know where I'm going?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree with you.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Same way.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: I looked at that verse from an exclusive perspective.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: That Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And only by making a decision for Jesus will I be saved.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: But what if it's an inclusive verse?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus is saying, God loves all of you.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the way that God expresses God's love for you is through me.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is the most tangible, visible, certain way.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: You'll...
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to go forward 16 times.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to keep praying harder.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I died and rose again for you.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: I am the one to show you that this grace is for you and for everybody.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So Christianity has oftentimes been shown to be exclusive.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't believe, you're out.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think what grace says is it's for everybody.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's inclusive.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus died for everyone.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: And someday,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Paul says,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: glory of God the Father.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't say a few.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't say a handful.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: It says every knee and every tongue will confess.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So what that says to me is that somehow, in some way, God's grace is going to have the final word.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we will find that grace so irresistible that his love won't stop until he finds us.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there's got to be people out there like me that are just now,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hoping,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: that are even just now making that connection that with the every knee shall bow.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I've ever...
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I am prone to see things from a,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say absence of grace,
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: but maybe that to me always felt,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: one day,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: kind of like it'll come there and then you won't be,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: you won't make the cut.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: You'll get on your knee and say, whoopsie, I'm sorry.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I guess I wish I had known.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember the song?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: I wish we'd all been ready.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: that was entrenched in me,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: like I used to listen and like lock in in my bedroom with my eyes stretched and
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: could visualize the whole thing.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean to be making light of it because this is what my, my very end.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting that you use that question about when did what the gentleman said
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: when you were a janitor.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: When did you become saved?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: I asked that of your brother, Jeff.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: when i was working first started working at community church of joy before i got
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know and he looked at me and he goes um well it's always been yeah well no no
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: what i'm saying is like when did you make the when did you pray the pr well it it's
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: always been and i i had to kind i mean it's an uncomfortable concept for someone
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: who was um didn't come into all of this with the understanding of grace so i am
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: sure that others have to sort of
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: wiggle in their seats a little bit with that if they also too come from that but
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: what if they don't if it is unbelief quote unquote then what a what a joyful
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: reality for all of us yes I think that
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: it all comes down to starting point for me.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: If your starting point is that God is angry and that God finally threw up his hands
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: and said,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: the only way I'm going to save these people is to slaughter my son on a cross,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: to give him a fighting chance to get back into my good graces.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: If that's your starting point,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: then decision theology and legalism,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: all that stuff is the natural outflow of that.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of we're in, you're out.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: But if your starting point is that God is a God of grace who created each of us in
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: God's image and that God is passionate about us and that God loves us and God will
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: do whatever it takes to reestablish that relationship with us and that God makes
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: the first move,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: then you sort of start to say,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: wait a minute.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Huh.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: If that's what God is like, if God will go to the cross for us in Jesus and
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that God won't fight through to get to me?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any enemy out there, whatever that is, unbelief, doubt, that God will not kind of go to war?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not always the best language to use in these days with all the war going on.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: But we know what we're saying.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is there ever going to be a time when God won't fight for me because God loves me?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: At what point does God...
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Does God ever give up on us?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think the cross allows us that thought.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: But again,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: if your starting point is an angry God who's hell-bent on sending us to hell unless
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: we pray the prayer and believe the right things,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: then you end up with a kind of an angry religion.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got one that's grace-based, that doesn't mean we're perfect.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean we always love the way we should.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: But it does say something radically different about God and how God works in the world.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've kind of been focused sort of on, you know, the decision to follow Jesus.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm suggesting it begins with God.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm suggesting that even if we doubt or just turn our backs on God,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: that God's not going to give up on us.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: God is compelled by his grace and love to keep pursuing us.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also the whole issue of, you know, when I'm praying for something and do I believe enough?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my wife is dying.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: If I just pray harder, if I have more faith.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And man, how many people have we both met who've lost loved ones and who blame themselves?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't have enough faith.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not from the heart of God.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Can you flesh that out just a little bit?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: When you say that's not from the heart of God.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because what that does is it destroys people.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: It fills them with regret.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: It fills them with guilt.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what God's about.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: God doesn't come to us in our grief to make us feel worse.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: God comes to us in our grief to cry with us, to hurt with us, to walk with us.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the death of Jesus...
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: should be a reminder to all Christians that bad stuff happens.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Death happens.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: But the story of the Christian story is that even in the midst of death,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: A,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: God is present,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: and B,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: life's going to have the final word,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: not death.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the pressure we put on ourselves when we make faith about me
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: rather than about God's grace toward me brings so much hurt.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I know a lot of people are hearing this stuff for the first time and their
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: minds are going to explode.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've been thinking about this for 40 years.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: We've been thinking about this together.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't come to these things quickly.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: But think of all those people who have lost a parent, a child, a friend,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: who didn't believe in Jesus the way that they think that they should.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And they're just gut wrenched because their loved one is now going to be in hell for eternity.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't sound like a gracious God either.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: That just doesn't square.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus went to hell so that we don't have to, is one way of saying it, right?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: He opened the gates of hell, the scripture says.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: But the other reality is Jesus enters into hell right now with us.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: People are living in hell right now.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus says, hell's not going to have the final word in your life.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to have the final word.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a word of grace and life.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And right now it's a word of comfort in my presence.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So all of these things, of course, we've got a lot of podcasts where we can just keep teasing this out.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if grace is the starting point, God's love for me is the starting point.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: then it changes everything about how we think about faith, belief, hell, heaven.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the things that we'll continue to tease out.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to encourage people,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: if you're really interested in this stuff,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: go to recklessgrace.substack.com.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm writing on this stuff.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Terry and I are going to be doing weekly podcasts on this.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we'd love to have you continue to join us.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we said on the first one, and I'm going to say it again,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want you to get to the end of a podcast like this without knowing that you
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: are the object of God's affection.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: You are the one God loves.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: You are the one Jesus died for.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And let me close with a passage of scripture from the Apostle Paul.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is from Ephesians 3.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Paul is praying for you, by the way, which is interesting.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: I pray that from his glorious unlimited resources,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: he will empower you with inner strength through his spirit.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Your roots will grow down into God's love and keep you strong.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And may you have the power to understand,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: as all God's people should,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: how wide,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: how long,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: how high,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: and how deep his love is.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about how high, how long, how wide, how deep,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: That means we're swimming in this grace all the time, all the time, whether we realize it or not.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's nowhere we can go where God's grace is not.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why this is called the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Terry, we're going to call it a day.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back next time.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm so excited for next time.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: This was awesome, Tim.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is our, this is our outro music.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: All right guys, we'll see you next time.