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The Secret Life of a Woman's Soul · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: Welcome, everyone. Today, we're bringing you an extraordinary program on
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: the life and contribution of Christiana Morgan to the development
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: of C.G. Jung and the field of analytical psychology and
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: beyond that, to bring this remarkable woman's contributions the respect
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: that it deserves. In about 1926, at the age of 28,
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Christiana traveled to Zurich nine months of intense personal analysis
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: with C.G. Jung. Jung found the images that she had drawn,
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: based on her active imaginations, as a female journey parallel
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: to his own experiences that he detailed in the Red Book.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: He saw this as an extraordinary demonstration of individuation. which
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: is the incarnation of the full self. He saw Christiana
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: as a remarkable person, called her his pioneer woman, and
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: clearly she was a significant muse for him. Now, her
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: analysis and the images that she shared provided Jung with
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: the materials for some of his most important studies, which
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: have now been published as the Vision Seminars that he
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: delivered between 1930 and 1934, Jung was able to show
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: the humanization of archetypal images in analysis. That may sound
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: particularly abstract, but it's something that we've spoken about in
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: the podcast on and off, that The archetypal level of
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: the psyche, which is where these powerful universal forces influence
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: all of us, lean into our personal psychology and guide us,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: nudge us in directions. But in order for that to happen,
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: they need to transform from these overwhelming forces into personalized, humanized,
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: images that we can relate to. Christiana's visions helped Jung,
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: perhaps even showed Jung, step by step how that remarkable
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: process occurs. It also helped him understand something about the
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: typology work that he had developed early in his career,
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: particularly around the idea of the fourth or inferior psychological function.
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: which is the part of our psychological traits that remain
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: partially submerged in the unconscious, which become a kind of
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: gateway into the deeper part of the psyche. Christiana's life
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: work became exploring and understanding the feminine unconscious of her
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: own visions, and beyond that, sharing that information, She expressed
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: this through sculpture and paintings, and relevant to today, the
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: creation of her Tower on the Marsh. After Christiana returned
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: from Zurich, and despite her lack of very formal education,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: she was brilliant. She became a lay analyst and the
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: co-director at the Harvard Psychological Clinic, where she helped found
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: the American field of psychotherapy and psychology. While she was
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: at Harvard, she co-authored with Henry Murray the thematic apperception test,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: or the TAT, which is still used today widely. And
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: very frustratingly, as has been the case for too many
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: female pioneers, Christiana's name was removed from the thematic apperception
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: test and other Harvard publications that she significantly contributed to,
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: despite the universal agreement of her rightful authorship. And today,
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: rather appallingly, the thematic apperception tests and other things published
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: at Harvard still list Henry Murray as the sole author.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: A part of her legacy that's fallen into the shadows
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: was her creation of her own tower on the marsh,
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: which was inspired by Jung's tower at Bollingen. Christiana built
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: her tower as a symbolic representation of her own individuation journey.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: It was a psychological expression of her love affair with
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: Henry Murray. Inside, it was filled with carvings and stained
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: glass and remarkable artifacts so that as Christiana abided in
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: the tower, she was surrounded by the artifacts of her
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: own individuation process. After an intense and radical surgery for
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: blood pressure, After years of rather excessive drinking, Christiana died
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: at the age of 69 in the Virgin Islands. She
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: was found deceased on a beach in just two feet
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: of water, mysteriously having slipped out of the hands of
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: the people who loved her. Today, we have the extraordinary
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: privilege of talking with Hilary Morgan, who is a filmmaker
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: and the granddaughter of Christiana Morgan. After decades of working
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: internationally as a documentary cinematographer, Hilary returned to making her
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: own films and recently completed The Tower, a film about
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: the spiritual retreat that her grandmother built. Hilary is currently
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: working with a group to save the tower which has
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: fallen into disrepair. She's hoping to create a full-length documentary
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: about the depth and breadth of her grandmother's work. Hillary
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: lives with her family on the south coast of San Francisco,
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: and she is here today to bring Christiana Morgan back
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: to life and bring the magnitude and depth of her
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: work the respect it deserves. So thank you, Hilary, for
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: making time with us. It's just remarkable to just begin
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: to understand just how profound Christiana's contributions were. So we'll
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: have a wide-ranging conversation, undoubtedly, but we will show your
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: documentary today, so perhaps you can start by helping us
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: understand why you made the documentary, and perhaps what it
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: means to you.
• 8:34
  Speaker 5: Well, first of all, thank you for having me on.
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: I began this film knowing years ago when I went
• 8:41
  Speaker 5: to film school that one day I would make a
• 8:43
  Speaker 5: film about my grandmother. She died when I was 12,
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: and even though I spent summers living next to her,
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: I continued to hear lots of family stories over the years.
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: So when I became a documentary filmmaker, I knew that
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: one day I would make a film. So I began
• 9:01
  Speaker 5: to collect interviews with family members, find family photo albums,
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: and begin to put those together. You know, little by
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: little after graduate work, I became a cinematographer and was
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: busy working, doing that field for a number of years,
• 9:19
  Speaker 5: and so put off the documentary. But I knew it
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: was coming. Through the years, I would go back and
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: visit the Tower, say every seven, eight years. and just
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: visit it and visit who was living there, which the
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: school that owns it now has used it for teacher housing.
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: But around 2016, 2017, I noticed that the tower was
• 9:44
  Speaker 5: really in need of some work. I was also introduced to,
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: met two Jungian psychoanalysts who had also visited the tower,
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: and they were also quite concerned about the state of
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: the tower. The tower now is going on almost 100
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: years old. So they decided to put on an all-day
• 10:05
  Speaker 5: symposium in New York in order to raise funds for
• 10:09
  Speaker 5: the tower. What we were specifically looking at was the
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: stained glass windows, which at that time we were noticing
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: were beginning to crack and to bulge. And so there
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: was a great deal of concern in saving them. So wonderfully,
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: through this all-day symposium, we were able to raise funds
• 10:30
  Speaker 5: to save and restore the stained glass windows. But I
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: knew in order for this symposium, it would be really
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: wonderful to make the film. So the date was set
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: for February 2019 to do this all-day symposium in New York.
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: And around, I would say, November 2018, I found myself procrastinating.
• 10:53
  Speaker 5: The time was getting closer and closer and I still
• 10:55
  Speaker 5: wasn't getting to work on it. So one night I
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: woke up from a dream and walked over to the
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: bookshelf in my room and pulled a book off the
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: shelf that was one of my grandmother's old books and
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: opened it randomly to a page. And the first line
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: that caught my eye was the first line in the film,
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: which is, across the broad continent of a woman's life
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: falls the shadow of a sword. And I knew at
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: that moment that I had the film. This was a
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: quote from Virginia Woolf. So I closed the book, put
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: it back on the shelf, went back to bed, and
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: woke up the next morning and was able to begin
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: the film.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: Hilary, do you remember the dream that you had that night?
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: You know, I don't. I'm sure I have it written
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: down somewhere because I do keep track of my dreams.
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: But I love that it led me to that book.
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: It led me to that quote. It started the process.
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: And I was able to make the film. I was
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: able to write the script in a week and a
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: half's time. It just poured out of me. As I said,
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: it just had been brewing for so many years. And
• 12:06
  Speaker 5: it just really poured out of me. It took a
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: bit longer to pull all the images and the music
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: and to edit the whole thing. But fortunately, it was
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: done in time for the symposium.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: Can you evoke a little bit about what it was
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: like for you as a girl to be in the
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: tower before we view it?
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: Well, it always was just a very, very mysterious place.
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: My grandmother was extremely mysterious and aloof. You know, she
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: was not the warm, maternal, cuddly grandmother. But we would
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: go over and visit. She had this beautiful stone pond
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: with a Quan Ying sculpture, which you'll see in the film,
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: in the yard, in the garden. And we would come
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: over and swim in it all the time. But we
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: also were not allowed to just come flying, even though
• 13:02
  Speaker 5: we had a little rustic cabin nearby. She had Started
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: early on, she built a little cabin for my father,
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: which when my father married and had children, he added
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: on to. But it was a very rustic cabin. It
• 13:16
  Speaker 5: was single wall, no insulation, a shower outside. You know,
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: very much like her tower, she had no electricity. The
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: fireplace was how, you know, warmth was generated. So we
• 13:30
  Speaker 5: would go over there, but if the gate was closed...
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: Or if there was a black car, that meant Harry
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: was visiting and we were not to come over. And
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: other times as well, we were always to ring this
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: little bell that she had on the gate in order
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: to gain admission. And I also, you know, I have
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: these memories of going to visit her and she would
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: put us to work shucking peas. She would pay us
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: a dollar a pea and also polishing the brass on
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: a beautiful wooden chest that she had that had brass
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: on the edging. She had carved the top of the chest.
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: It was quite beautiful. But she would put us to
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: work polishing the chest. So it was an interesting relationship
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: with her.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: But it sounds like the tower was a kind of
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: part of your girlhood. So it has a really personal
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: significance to you in addition to being this incredibly important
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: kind of cultural landmark, really. I wanted to ask also
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: just about the documentary before we watch it. So it's
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: a short documentary that was made sort of as an
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: offering for this all-day symposium in 2019. Do you have
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: plans to make a larger, like a full-length documentary or what's,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: where is that?
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: I do. I'm actually right now working on a longer
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: documentary about her. This Tower film was very much sort
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: of an outline as an overview of her life and
• 15:02
  Speaker 5: her work. And now I'm really looking into exploring and
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: going into further depth about her work and life. That's
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: a work in progress at this point.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Would you maybe just kind of bring us up to
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: date on what's happened to the tower since?
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: Having been used as teacher housing for so many years,
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: it is in need of restoration work, various things like
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: new roofs. We'd like to restore the gardens and much
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: of the building the way it was when my grandmother
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: lived there.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: It was passed when your grandmother died. It was passed
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: to your father. And then subsequently it was given kind
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: of in trust to a school. And the idea was
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: they were to, I don't know, sort of use it
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: as a museum or a teaching resource or something like that.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: But instead they've sort of commandeered it for housing.
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: Is that right?
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: Well, it was hard to understand for my family because
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: when my grandmother died, she willed it to my father
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: and mother and then said after they died, they were
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: to give it to the school. And I found a
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: letter not too long ago that she wrote to my
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: father explaining why she did that, which was because they
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: had a family home up in York, Maine that she
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: and her sisters had after her parents died. And her
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: two sisters outvoted her with selling the house. And it
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: really broke her heart. And she saw how quickly something
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: so loved by a family member could leave the family.
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: She thought it best to give it to the school.
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: You know, I think in large part because she did
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: die and Harry was busy with his new life. He
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: went on to marry two years later after she died. Um,
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: and he was still quite busy with his work, um,
• 17:02
  Speaker 5: that the tower just allowed to be used the way
• 17:06
  Speaker 5: the school felt it was important. Um, you know, I think, um,
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: they thought that it was best to put a school
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: teacher in there. Uh, they, they lacked housing, but also
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: for security purposes for people not to break into it.
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: So it was used as housing, uh, for teachers and, um,
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: You know, as people who don't rent and don't necessarily
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: own places, it doesn't necessarily keep up to the standards
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: one would like.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Listen, I'm sure kind of keeping up the tower would
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: require some resources, and perhaps the school hasn't even had
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: those resources to sort of maintain it. the way it
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: should be maintained.
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: And that's one of our hopes is after we raise
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: these funds to restore it, to then have an endowment
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: so that this never, ever happens again, that it'll forever
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: be taken care of and protected and be able to
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: be shared with the wider world.
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking about how the narration, your narration in the
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: film is about, wouldn't you, as she wrote to her son,
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: Wouldn't you like your work to go out into the
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: wider world? And that the life she lived and all
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: the work she did on the tower, it's poignant and
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: sad that something that could go out into the wider
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: world at this point is not.
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think that's part of my mission, actually.
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: I mean, not only do I find her an incredibly
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: inspiring woman, And have been very moved by how other
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: people have been very inspired by her work. But I
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: feel as if that was what she was centering her
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: life around was her visions and the work she continued
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: at Harvard and what they were trying to do at
• 19:00
  Speaker 5: the Tower. And that that was sacrificed in many ways,
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: you know, that the rest of the family sacrificed because
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: of that work. And that's an added need of why
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: it needs to go on. I mean, not only is that,
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: I think, a very important contribution, but I think also
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: that's where her passion and interest was, was to spread
• 19:22
  Speaker 5: her work.
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: I'm intrigued by her notion of the dyad, that she
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: and Harry were lovers for 40 years and tried to
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: continue Jung's work of individuation and extend it into an
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: interpersonal relationship and maybe a human embodiment of what the
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: union of opposites could look like. Can you say more
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: about what you think and understand about her passion for that?
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: Well, I think I'm still trying to figure all of
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: it out. I've been working my way through thousands of
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: pages of her journals, her writings. They were writing a
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: book about it. And just recently, I found more under
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: Harry's archives at Harvard. There are four different archives of
• 20:20
  Speaker 5: Christiana's papers at the Harvard archives, including her vision journals.
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: So there's a lot to sort through. So I don't
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: fully understand it, but I think that they were Continuing
• 20:35
  Speaker 5: the individuation process that she began with her vision journals,
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: with her work with Carl Jung, and that she was
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: taking that individuation process further as just herself into the
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: relationship with her and Harry. And the two of them
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: were doing the work together. They believed, you know, between
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: the two wars, between World War I and World War II,
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: there was just this incredible... change in disillusionment, you know,
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: that people had lost such faith in so much, that politics, religion,
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: you know, it was the time Nietzsche's God is dead.
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: And so I think they were, she was a very
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: idealistic person, and I think they were searching to create
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: this myth and this new religion.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Right, which I really felt that, Hilary, during the film,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: when you spent all that time lovingly focusing on the
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: stained glass.
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: It really, really hit me, you know, that she was
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: really trying to live out, she was really trying to
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: live out the symbolic life. She was really committed to that.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: And she wanted to sort of actualize it to the
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: fullest extent possible. I mean, interestingly, I find, you know, having,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: you know, read her biography, you know, in preparation for this,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: by the way, Her biography is Translate This Darkness, written
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: by Claire Douglas, a Jungian analyst. And we'll put that
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: in the show notes too. But, you know, because one
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: of the things, you know, on the one hand, she
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: was so unconventional and she was trying to live out
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: this symbolic life. And on the other hand, she was
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: told by Jung and others that her role was to
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: be the femme inspiratrice. to be kind of an adjunct
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: to the man, you know, or the soror mystica. Those
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: two things feel to me, uh, like there's a tension
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: there that, that, that she could make a commitment to
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: living out the symbolic life. And yet somehow it necessitated him,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: you know, it's necessitated Harry Murray. I don't know if
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: others would agree with me that there's a tension there,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: but I think I, that was rattling around my head
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: as I was reading. And I think I'm still trying to,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: to work that out because it, It feels like, on
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: the one hand, she was very committed to her own
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: bringing forth what was in her. And on the other hand,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: it feels like she was often doing so in service
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: to him.
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: So much of the readings that I've been done, her
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: personal readings, have been shifting my perspective a little bit.
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: Because when she was working with Jung, he was incredibly
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: inspired by what she was creating. And he was very, very...
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: supportive of her work. And then when she came back
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: from Munich, having at that point consummated her relationship with
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: Harry and returned to Jung, this was during her analysis,
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: for some reason, the analysis began to change. Some people
• 23:46
  Speaker 5: have surmised, some Jungians have surmised that Perhaps all these
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: incredibly powerful female archetypes that were coming up were more
• 23:58
  Speaker 5: than Jung could kind of deal with. There was talk
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: in Claire's book of Jung being jealous of this new
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: relationship that Harry and Christiana were beginning.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: She even intimated that Jung may have had an affair
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: with her at one point.
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: Right, which I have sort of a speculation. I have
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: a hard time with it because... She was just falling
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: in love with Harry Murray at that point. And I
• 24:23
  Speaker 5: find it a little strange that, especially a woman just
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: in that new phase of a newfound, you know, that
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: infatuation phase and being so deeply distracted would also. But
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: one is not to know until we get more of
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: the papers between Young and Christiana, I think. As the
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: therapy continues, continued with Jung and it was towards the end,
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: Jung began to become less supportive and more disparaging of
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: her and more. And he also began to say to her,
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: you know, maybe it's time to have another child. And
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: what I really think now is that you should get
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: behind in creating Harry, that his success is going to,
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: you know, be dependent and also very much supportive of
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: a triangle. He had the triangle with Tony Wolfe and
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: he had the triangle with his wife, Emma. And so
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: when both Harry and Christiana came to him at different times,
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: conflicted about this new, you know, growing affair between the
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: three of them, he, of course, was very supportive of it.
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: I feel as if Christiana was not subordinate to Jung.
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: I don't think she was subordinate to Harry and the
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: men in her life. I think she was very supportive
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: of the men in her life. And Claire really makes
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: a lot of her argument in the book is about
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: how Christiana was subordinate to the men. And I think
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: that when you look at it at this point, it
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: appears that way because Christiana's name is on none of
• 26:00
  Speaker 5: the work at Harvard. No one knows about the tower.
• 26:03
  Speaker 5: No one knows about her artwork. She seems like this figure,
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: the veiled woman in the inner circle of Carl Jung's World,
• 26:11
  Speaker 5: which is the subtitle of her book as well. There's,
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: you know, in the correspondence with Jung, Christiana does push back.
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: Jung says to her, you know, you're scolding me and
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: you're right to be scolding me. You know, they made
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: up years later, but I think she was very somewhat
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: defiant with his, you know, with his change of heart
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: towards her.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she, I imagine she felt pretty hurt.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: That would be And I think the strongest point I
• 26:40
  Speaker 5: want to make here is that I think that Christiana had,
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: from my understanding with the readings I've done, Christiana and
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: Harry had this agreement that she was to help him
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: with the Harvard Psychological Clinic. She helped him co-direct it.
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: She helped as a researcher. She had patients. And they
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: published three different publications together, the most notable being the TAT.
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: And his part of the bargain was to help her
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: with a tower and to continue their individuation process as
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: a couple at the tower. You know, this was what
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: the agreement was. And in the end, tragically, Harry could
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: not really come through with his part of the bargain.
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: He was a very gregarious, charismatic fellow, but he was
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: very drawn to his work at Harvard and the very
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: sort of active social life he had, both with his
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: family and professionally. And it was really hard for him
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: to give that up and devote as much time as
• 27:46
  Speaker 5: was needed to Christiana and the tower. And I think
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: that's what made the relationship fall away and, you know,
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: it became very sad for her.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: I'm curious a little bit about your sense of Christiana's
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: experience in herself of her collaborations, because I think it's
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: easy to sit here in 2024 and fantasize a certain
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: kind of political frame on the outcomes of her life
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: from this perspective. Imagine, well, if I were in that situation,
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: you know, I'd feel outraged or I'd feel these different qualities,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: but I wonder if you have a sense of what
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: it was like for her to collaborate with, um, her lover,
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: but also with Jung relative to the seminars. Did she
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: experience herself being exploited?
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: You know, I haven't gotten through her analysis notes. These
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: are some of the real treasures that still exist that
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: are at Harvard. She took extensive notes after her therapy
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: and her reactions to that. But from her other journals
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: and things that I've written... I think there was some
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: real frustration with her because she really was beginning to
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: tap into the animus figures and these incredibly powerful archetypes
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: that were giving her new strength and new independence. And
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: quite frankly, what she suffered from as a young child
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: was depressions. which were largely brought on because she was
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: being repressed, that the society was so repressive towards women
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: not being able to use, you know, go off to
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: college and use their minds and join the workforce. And
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: she was very much a procrastinator. very intelligent, strong-willed child
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: who actually was put in a closet by her mother,
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: who found it really at times very hard to deal
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: with this child. When she became really depressed as a teenager,
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: at that time the doctor's would prescribe bed rest. They
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: would recommend taking books away and not socializing, you know,
• 30:05
  Speaker 5: taking away stimulation, which was the worst thing for her possible.
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: You know, she really wanted to get out and experience
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: the world and read great books, you know, learn more
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: ideas and really just open her horizons and to work.
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: I mean, she, you know, escaped to New York from
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: her parents' home during the war, to learn to become
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: a nurse. You know, there's a lot there.
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: What I'm aware of, though, is how hard she had
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: to fight to be herself, from not conforming with the
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: cultural expectations of what a young lady ought to be,
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: and then the interaction with Jung and what was I think,
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: projected onto her. And then later with Harry, who couldn't
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: meet her either, even in their agreed-upon personal work together
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: with the tower and visions and symbols. And I'm wondering
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: if some of this was the toll that having so
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: much projected onto her took, some of the depression that
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: she had In later life as well.
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: Well, I think very much so. But I think that
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: in the beginning of both of her work with both men,
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: it was very supportive and it was very dynamic and collaborative.
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: And there was a lot coming out of it. But
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: I think with time, it grew and changed. And I
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: think Harry became more involved with his ego and what
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: he wanted out of it. You know, there were some
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: amazing years and lots of testimony from their colleagues at
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: Harvard about, you know, what an amazing environment it was
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: and how Christiana helped bring it as a gender neutral,
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: a very egalitarian environment, a really dynamic, exciting environment to
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: work in. So I think there was a lot. And
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: I think the early years of the Tower, that the
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: Tower has just, you know, remarkable work that came out
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: of her with her paintings and sculptures and drawings, as
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: I said.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: What I think I'm hearing, which I think is so important,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: is that Christiana would not want to be seen as
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: a victim.
• 32:35
  Speaker 5: Absolutely.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: And I think that's really important. That, yes, she had struggles, undoubtedly,
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: that were cultural. Relationships are very complicated. But I think
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: she would have wanted to be seen as somebody who
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: was potent, creative, dynamic. And that she was initiating remarkable
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: things that she benefited from. And yes, there were disappointments,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: as there are in life. But you're bringing forward the
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: remarkable accomplishments that she in fact did have.
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and what I knew of her and the family
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: stories I heard about her, I think I'm piecing this
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: all together. And we'll include some of that in the
• 33:20
  Speaker 5: film as well. One also, I think, has to stand
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: back to a certain extent and look at the lens
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: in which one is looking through this story, which is
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: part of what brought me to look into Claire Douglas,
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: you know, this woman who spent 10 to 11 years
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: of her life researching Christiana and what it was about
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: her that made her so fascinated by Christiana, which is
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: really an interesting side story because she was J.D. Salinger's wife.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow. Oh, I didn't know that.
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: Experienced a lot of firsthand abuse by J.D. Salinger.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: That was a tortured marriage.
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: Yes, a lot of emotional abuse. She and her daughter
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: were not allowed to see friends. They were kept in
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: the house and not allowed to go to town. So,
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: you know, she finally escaped and became a Jungian psychoanalyst. But,
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: you know, and then there's also my own and sort
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: of contemporary... you know, view that I bring to it
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: that of, of her being a woman, but she, I
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: think the remarkable story thing, one of the remarkable things
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: about this story is that she is a woman who
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: came out of the early part of the 20th century
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: in the 1900s and 1910s from an old Boston family
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: that was very repressive. There was a lot of puritanical
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: and religious, convention and restrictions. And she broke free of that.
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: You know, she was really taken with Jung's idea of
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: the libido, which was a force that energized both creativity
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: and sexuality. And she became, you know, very sensual and sexual.
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: And I don't believe ever had any interest in marrying,
• 35:10
  Speaker 5: certainly not becoming a mother. But, you know, she really
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: did throw off a lot of the restrictions that she
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: grew up with and led a really interesting, you know, free-thinking, progressive, eccentric,
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: and bohemian life.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Which is exactly what Jung said individuation is, that to
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: cast off the ways that we have been colonized by family, religion, culture, expectations,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: and that still goes on today. That what we are
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: colonized with that is alien to our nature, whether or
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: not we think that it's appealing or unappealing, that the
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: project remains alive and still the same in many ways
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: for men and women.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that I'm thinking about
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: from what you guys were just speaking of is the
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: way that different people have projected things on her, right,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: in her life. I think when my imagination— and this is
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: me projecting onto it, I suppose— is that when she
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: went to see Jung, Jung kind of saw her as
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: the counterpart to Tony Wolfe. And of course, you know,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Harry was the counterpart to Jung. And he was in
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: his own complex at that time, perhaps, and sort of
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: that led him to see something in their relationship. And,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: you know, and he kind of steered them in that direction.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Perhaps Claire was projecting some of her own experience. Perhaps
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: when I read about it. I'm reading, I'm projecting my
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: own experience into it. And so it's almost like, you know,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: even in life, a lot of people have projected stuff
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: on her and that's continuing to happen now. It's almost
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: like her, her whole life is a kind of ongoing
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: projective test that maybe, maybe tells us more about us than,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: than really about her. But certainly, uh, she's a very,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: very complex, uh, person. So here's a question. from the audience. Uh,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: someone says, I would love to hear more about Hillary's
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: lovely and fond memories of her grandmother that she mentioned
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: before the film screening. So I would too.
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: So, well, um, I think one of the favorite activities
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: that I would do with my grandmother was, um, she
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: would come over and get me and we would get
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: in her old sedan in the summertime. Um, And we
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: would roll down the windows and we'd drive out onto
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: these beautiful roads that went through the marsh. After driving
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: for a few minutes, we would stop the car and
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: we would let her dog out, who was a long-haired, medium-sized,
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: mixed-breed dog. And then my grandmother would light up a
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: cigarette and we would proceed to roll down drive along
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: at about 10 or 15 miles and through these beautiful
• 38:05
  Speaker 5: marsh fields. And we would be running the dog or
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: walking the dog, her way of walking the dog. And
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: she would proceed to tell me stories. And, you know,
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: we would have this wonderful, lovely time together. So that
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: is one of my fondest memories of her.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: I'm going back to pick up the thread that I'm
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: following prior to the listener's question, which is what we see,
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: what we project onto Christiana Morgan's life. And the symbol
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: of the veil and the veiled woman and a veiled
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: life that she has come to more light through Claire
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: Douglas's biography. She hasn't had the notoriety, the recognition, the
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: public acclamation that many another person would have had after
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: having done all the professional work at Harvard, and having
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: co-authored the thematic apperception test, having built the tower, and
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: all of her works of art that are in the tower.
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: That symbol is the statue, she has been veiled.
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's interesting, you know, because I think we're
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: hearing more and more about how women's work years ago
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: were usurped, and men put their names on things, and
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: there's a lot coming out about that. And I read
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: just recently that at Harvard, well, you know, in the
• 39:54
  Speaker 5: 40s after the war, men who had been in the
• 39:58
  Speaker 5: armed forces were coming back to reclaim their jobs in
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: the workforce, which, of course, so many of them were
• 40:05
  Speaker 5: occupied by women. So at Harvard, there was a new
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: influx of psychologists that came to work with Christiana and Harry.
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: And many of them held these same sort of beliefs
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: that there was a certain feeling of feeling threatened by women.
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: And around that time, Christiana began to sort of take
• 40:25
  Speaker 5: a back seat to things. But it's also the time
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: that her name was taken off the papers. So I
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: think Harry gives a story that he didn't feel that
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: she was really up to having to reply to a
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: lot of the responses that might come in about the work,
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: even though she continued to do the research and the
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: revisions on the thematic app receptions tests. She, you know,
• 40:55
  Speaker 5: still stayed very active on the work. But, you know,
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: this comes back to a theory that I have about it, too,
• 41:02
  Speaker 5: of her being supportive but not supportant in that I
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: really don't think, you know, my grandmother's real center was
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: with the tower and her art and the reworking of revisions.
• 41:14
  Speaker 5: And the continuation of her individuation into this relationship with Harry.
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: And it wasn't the Harvard. It wasn't.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: She wasn't ambitious in that way.
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: It wasn't ego. She was not the ego. And she
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: and Harry were sort of lovely complement that way. Her
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: being the introvert, him the extrovert and.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Did you know Harry was, did you, what was it
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: like when they were together? Did you ever see them together?
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: I didn't see them a lot together. I think they
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: were usually pretty private in their times. My relatives did.
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: They would spend time with them. But I just had,
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: you know, brief, all the family parties were over there
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: and I would see them occasionally then. But the other
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: thing about it, which has been really interesting as a
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: documentary filmmaker is, and for my next film, is even
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: though it was an affair that people at the clinic
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: knew about, they still very much tried to keep it
• 42:16
  Speaker 5: secret because it was the late 20s, the early 40s,
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: and very unacceptable to society. So I have two photographs,
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: is all, of the two of them together, and I'm
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: still searching for more. And that's how good they were.
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: A lot of the photographs in my film, my father
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: snuck off. And I think the one of them in
• 42:38
  Speaker 5: the canoe is one that my father snuck of them.
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: But they did a pretty good job of keeping it
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: secret to people outside their circle.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: Hilary, do you know much about the rituals that she
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: was experimenting with? I find that really fascinating.
• 42:55
  Speaker 5: It's really fascinating, and I'd love to share some journals
• 42:58
  Speaker 5: that she kept of them. I don't think I, at
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: this point, know a lot of the details, but she
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: has pages of journals that she did beautiful artwork of,
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: and they would describe what the piece of music was
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: that they played, and they would dress up, and they
• 43:20
  Speaker 5: would read various pieces of poetry or literature to each other.
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: They would make a particular alcoholic drink. There was a
• 43:29
  Speaker 5: great deal that they did in their rituals that way
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: that some of them were recorded. And, you know, the
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: ritual life was really interesting. It continued not only throughout
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: the tower, but into the tower landscape. She did a
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: lot of gardening. She, like her grandfather, like her father,
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: I mean, was really, really, really loved to garden. And
• 43:55
  Speaker 5: she and Harry did a lot to name parts of
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: the garden. They had Bowlingon Circle, Omega's Cradle, they named
• 44:05
  Speaker 5: a part of the garden. Guardian Hill was another name.
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: Garte's Brow, just these beautiful sections of the garden that
• 44:14
  Speaker 5: they created. And then various trees and shrubs that they
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: put in, they would give names to. And then she
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: created also more journals documenting each year what plants were
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: put in, what part of the tower had been changed
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: or added onto, and very significant events that had happened
• 44:38
  Speaker 5: in her life. And, you know, the TAT happening or
• 44:41
  Speaker 5: maybe her parents passing or things like that. And they're
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: all illustrated in a really beautiful fashion.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: Do you have the sense of how she held the
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: spirit of her journals. Because for someone to be so
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: committed to journaling and recording, I'm caught with how she
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: was fantasizing the journal was receiving it. Who did she
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: think might one day read it? Who was she writing
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: to all of these years?
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: Well, I think some of it was incorporated into her
• 45:18
  Speaker 5: work at Harvard. Some of the very early T.A.T. images
• 45:23
  Speaker 5: were from her visions. And there's one, there's a really
• 45:27
  Speaker 5: cute little one of a little boy with a violin
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: that's actually my father. Yeah, I think some of it
• 45:34
  Speaker 5: she incorporated into her work at Harvard, the research that
• 45:38
  Speaker 5: was being done.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: So in a way, she took her inner life so seriously.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: And the part recording, it was part of that very
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: serious respect for her own psychological reality.
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: Oh, very much so.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: So speaking of which, there's a ton of great questions
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: coming in. And is there anywhere, this is a question,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: is there a place to read her diaries or any
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: writings about her relationship to her creations?
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: Yes. To my knowledge, it's all accessible at the Harvard Archives.
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: And as I said, there are four different libraries, Schlesinger
• 46:14
  Speaker 5: being also right next door at Radcliffe. But you can
• 46:19
  Speaker 5: make an appointment and gain access, you know, make an
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: appointment to see these various archives and journals and letters.
• 46:27
  Speaker 5: There are photographs there. There's a great deal of stuff.
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: So that's one way.
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking about the tower and her journaling and rituals
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: as the equivalent for her of Jung's Red Book.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: And so... One of the groups, there are two groups
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: now that have been formed in order to further the
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: legacy of Christiana's work. One of them is, I'd mentioned before,
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: the Tower Group. And the other group is a scholarship group,
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: which is a wonderful new group made up of Jungian
• 47:08
  Speaker 5: scholars and psychologists who are trying to restore the legacy
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: of Christiana's work. And one of the first things they're
• 47:19
  Speaker 5: hoping to do is to publish her vision journals, very
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: much the way that the Philemon Foundation did Young's Red Books,
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: so that the public could see them. And then the
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: other thing, I'm sorry, the other thing is that they're
• 47:36
  Speaker 5: hoping to restore her name. They're hoping to do many things,
• 47:39
  Speaker 5: but Another project in the works is to restore her
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: name to the Harvard papers, the three publications.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: And again, related to that, someone asks, how can we
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: help Hillary's project of her film of documentation of her
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: amazing grandmother's work? So if someone's watching this and wants
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: to get involved in some way, how can they support you?
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: How can they support the work of bringing this amazing
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: legacy forward?
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: Well, I'm glad you asked because anyone that isn't interested
• 48:18
  Speaker 5: in financial sponsorship or inquiries about the project, we have
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: a webpage set up on my website, which is towerofdreamsdoc.com
• 48:31
  Speaker 5: and then slash support. And you can go there and
• 48:35
  Speaker 5: let us know what... what your interests are. We're, as
• 48:40
  Speaker 5: I said, looking for sponsorship and volunteers and expertise in
• 48:45
  Speaker 5: any ideas of ways that people feel like they could
• 48:49
  Speaker 5: help with this.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: I have a question, Hilary, if I may. Sure. You know,
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: Jung heard Christiana's stories. He meditated on her images and
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: he was changed by them. It did something to him,
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: a kind of alchemy. So I'm curious, What it's done
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: to you, poring over these images, digging into these visionary experiences,
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: has it activated things in you? Kind of moved your
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: journey forward?
• 49:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it has a lot. I mean, I feel really,
• 49:25
  Speaker 5: really inspired by her work. And being one who has
• 49:30
  Speaker 5: always been fascinated by dreams, as I said in the beginning.
• 49:33
  Speaker 5: And also been a very, very prolific dreamer. I feel
• 49:38
  Speaker 5: very moved now to begin to study my dreams and
• 49:42
  Speaker 5: to find out more about what my dreams are trying
• 49:45
  Speaker 5: to tell me. So I'm very much beginning that work
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: right now.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: So that's very, very moving that she took this so seriously.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: She took her inner life so seriously. And when did
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: dreams start mattering to you?
• 50:03
  Speaker 5: Oh, that's a really good question. I think they've mattered
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: to me for a very long time. Most of my
• 50:09
  Speaker 5: adult life, I've been dreaming a great deal and recording them. And,
• 50:18
  Speaker 5: you know, occasionally looking at them, but not really studying
• 50:21
  Speaker 5: them and working with someone to analyze and to gain
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: knowledge from them.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Someone asked a really great question. Um, hello, uh, hello, Rachel, um,
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: about the archetype of the tower. And maybe, uh, you know,
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: I was thinking about that because Deb and I, we
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: visited both Bollingen and Marie Louise von Franz's tower. And, uh,
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: here's another tower. So, uh, maybe we could just talk.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: First of all, I want my own tower for sure. Um,
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: And I'd love to visit Christiana's tower. But what about
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: the archetype of the tower?
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: Well, Joseph, I'm thinking, you know, you are a resident
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: tarot expert and that there is a tarot card, the tower,
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: that could start us off.
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: The lightning struck tower, which is the 16th major arcana
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: card in tarot. In that regard, the tower is... that
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: tradition is thought to be the personality, that each brick
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: that's laid in the tower is a sensory experience, a
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: life experience, and that by the time the tower is
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: finished and there's a male and female figure inside that
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: represents the conscious and the unconscious mind, it seems that
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: something has been formed, but also it has a limiting
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: effect dynamic. When we look at that from a psychological standpoint,
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: the first building block of the personality is discovering the not-I.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: The child bangs their hand against the crib and, ouch,
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: I'm over here and something is over there. So the
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: foundation of the tower of the personality for most of
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: us is an experience of being separate. And that's rightly so.
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: Many of the analytical theorists talk about this separation of
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: the ego from the self, and that that's an important
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: differentiating process. So we need these towers of isolation in
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: a certain sense. In the lightning-struck tower, there is a
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: force that comes often from the upper right quadrant of
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: the tower that strikes the tower, blowing its top off
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: and casting its the conscious and personal subconscious mind out
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: into this free fall. And so it represents these experiences
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: that come into us often from the archetypal realm that
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: our personality is not what we thought it was. The
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: world is more than we could have imagined and that
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: we are cast out from the sense of limit and
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: separation into a world that is much more dynamic, we
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: are in a fluidic relationship to life and not siloed
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: in these towers of isolation. Now, that said, I think
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: Christiana had a very different experience of her tower, although
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: I have to say, it did seem to represent her personality,
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: that she was building something that was all her own. Mm-hmm.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: It's like a test, like did Jung say that test,
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: did he call it a testament in stone or something, Bollingen?
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: You know, it was a, it's like a physical representation of,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: you know, in a way I want to say it's
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: kind of a physical representation of ego. But ego in
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: harmony with the self.
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: Exactly, the ego self-access allows the ego to receive these
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: remarkable guidance.
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: I was going to say that it's a rendition of soul,
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: the true place of where one's ego, one's I resides
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: in a dwelling. I mean, Jung conceived of his tower,
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: added to it, built a lot of it, not as
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: an architectural enterprise, but as something emanating from within. And
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: I can imagine Christiana Morgan in her tower is actually
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: a very feminine symbol. All those Freudian associations aside, everybody
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: forget those. But what a wonderful enclosure. Can you imagine
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: being enclosed in this roundness with different levels, access to
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: the roof, French doors that open on the marsh? and
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: all your own work, I would imagine it would be
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: such a place of haven and home.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Well, it's, it's interesting because I, because I think like
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: one of the things about the red book, right, is that,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: you know, and I think Steve Martin actually, who was
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: one of the analysts who helped bring the red book
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: to publication, he talked about this. I thought it was
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: such a good point is it's really, it's really such a,
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: physical representation of the commitment to the inner life. Right.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: And it's like, we kind of all need our own
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: red book. And, and Christiana took that really literally. And
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: she actually, you know, and Jung said, go put this
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: in a book and that will be your cathedral. And
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: because that's where your soul is, you know, and she
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: did that. She created that book. And then if you
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: think about it, the tower, whether it's Bollingen or Christiana's
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: tower or Marie Louise von Franz's tower, we should talk
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: a little bit about that, uh, you and I, but,
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: but in any case, uh, you know, it's, again, it's
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: that physical representation of that commitment to the inner life
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: and kind of surrounding it with symbols that your own
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: psyche gave you, whether it was in a dream or
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: an act of imagination. I mean, the inside of Bollingen
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: upstairs has this beautiful mural of, um, Philemon, who is this, uh,
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: old man with the horns of a bull and the
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: wings of a kingfisher, who first appeared to Jung in
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: a dream, and then Jung engaged in active imaginations with him.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: So when Deb and I visited Bollingen, we were not
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: allowed to go upstairs and see that. But we did
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: see many of the, you know, the carvings and everything
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: that were around. And, you know, Marie-Louise von Franz's tower had,
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: you know, again, images from her dreams and visions. And
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: and a little room set aside just for active imagination.
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: I remember your description of the room that set aside,
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: and I was struck that it was a bare room,
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: wasn't it? It was kind of a blank slate. And
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: what I was fantasizing, I don't know to be true,
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: is that Marie did not want to be influenced, that
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: she wanted it to be a space where her psyche
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: could manifest itself without having to contextualize it with anything
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: that had been there previously.
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: Where I somehow am going with this is that Bollingen
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: is now in possession of Jung's descendants. And Marie-Louise von
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: Franz's tower was being occupied. And we were so hospitably
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: received by him and by the Jung family at Bollingen.
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: And I am really feeling affected by the fact that
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: Christiana Morgan's tower has been untended and.
• 58:26
  Speaker 5: Uncared for.
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: And it is, to me, the most magical, the most lyrical,
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: the most entrancing, soulful of these three towers that we've discussed.
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: I'd give almost anything to be able to spend time
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: in that tower. So there's a sadness in me that
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: this incredible, incredible work of inner and outer effort is
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: not being lovingly, reverently tended to.
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. And this is where the listeners and later as
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: we distribute this on the podcast, where people really can
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: be moved to make a contribution.
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah. To first assess, you know, the state of the
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: foundation and the walls, uh, Sort of an engineering project
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: to see what the bones of it, what their state is,
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: and then move on from there.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: So someone wanted to know, was she married to Harry?
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: And she was not. She was married to William Morgan.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: And so it was a really painful kind of love triangle.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: I got the feeling that it was sort of, it
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: was somewhat kind of agreed upon that this was going
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: to happen. But Harry was also married to someone else.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: So I think it was very, very painful for Bill,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: Christiana's husband, and Josephine, Harry's wife. It was a very,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: very difficult, painful situation to be in. And in fact, um,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: so Christiana and, and, uh, Bill did have one child
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: together who was known as Count C and that is, uh,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: Hillary's father. And, uh, before we, we went live, you know,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: I was asking Hillary a little bit about that. She said, yeah,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: it was really, it was really difficult for my father. And, um, and, uh,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: you know, Christiana was, uh, Again, trying to lead this
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: very unconventional life, but it had costs. It did affect
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: the people around her.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: And that is the tension of individuation, the tremendous painful
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: process of choosing the self, which is different from choosing oneself.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: And there's a famous quote from one of the Gospels
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: where Jesus says, I've not come to make peace. Right.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: Which is that the self comes in this uncompromising way,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: which essentially puts us at odds with the prevailing mores,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: not always, but often. Yeah.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking of taking a little bit of a turn
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: back to the vision seminars because Christiana Morgan did, hundreds
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: of paintings and drawings that Jung said he thought he
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: was looking at Psyche. And he used her material as
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 4: the basis for four years' worth of a special seminar.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: I forget how many volumes there are called the Vision Seminars.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: And they were basically an extended case study of Christiana
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: Morgan's visions and drawings and paintings. You know, I'm wondering
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: if you can just add to that, Joseph, because it
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: was huge work.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: The difficulty in summarizing, honestly, is that Jung went into
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: such tremendous specific detail that he really did not generalize
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: at all, but he took each of her visions and
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: meticulously took apart the symbols where he found an The mandala,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: for instance, was very interested for him. And he was
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: very interested in the interplay between the masculine and the feminine,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: and particularly how it was different inside of the woman's psyche.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: For all of the criticisms we might lay at Jung's
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: feet about misunderstanding the feminine psyche, he was the first
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: one to say he didn't understand it. And in fact,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: it was very clear that it would require female analysts
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: to write about the feminine psyche. It was clear to
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: him that he just really couldn't do much with that.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: So the generosity of Christina to share so much of
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: what was happening inside of her allowed him to get
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: a sense of what individuation looked like. And then, of course,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: he generalized it, but inside of the psyche of this woman.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: And I think also what Hilary was trying to point
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: to is in her ritualized experiments in the tower with
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: her lover, is that she was looking for that stage
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: in the alchemical process where the masculine and the feminine merge,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: the anima, animus, and the ego merge. so that something unprecedented,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: which is the birth of the incarnation of the self,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: then might happen. And her work was circling around this
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: in a way that Jung found totally novel.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm thinking about in Volume 5, I think
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: it was originally called also like Psychology of the Unconscious
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: or something. But yes, so Volume 5 is super interesting,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: super important. And basically the meat of it is just
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: him riffing off this woman's kind of fantasy material. What
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: was that woman's name? Miller. Miller fantasies, right? Yeah. She
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: had like a man's name, but it's a woman. And
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: it seems to me that he does something sort of
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: similar with the visions, with Christiana's material and the visions
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: of summoners. Although, you know, he didn't know Miller at all. Um,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: he just had the fantasy material and he just kind
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: of riffed off of it and pulled out all of
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: these archetypal themes. So again, it was really like that
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: projective test. Like what is, what is young CNN? But
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: you know, what Douglas says in, in the biography of
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: Christiana is that in the vision seminars, he was just
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: kind of going beyond, he was just taking it places
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: that didn't really feel relevant to her. He didn't do
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: a good job of, um, of disguising her identity. And
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: so she wrote him a, you know, she wrote him
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: a letter or something really slapping his wrist and saying,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: you've got to stop. And apparently he did. And that's
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: when he moved on to the Zarathustra lectures. You know,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: it's sort of like, so here's this material. And one
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: of the things, you know, it's sort of like, so
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: what is the difference between masculine and feminine psychology? And
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: what does her life show us? And You know, one
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: of the things that I was really struck by in
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: reading the Douglas book is, you know, it's the hero's
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: job to sort of overcome the dragon. But the heroine's
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: job is to, I don't know if befriend is the
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: right word, but to come to terms with the dragon,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: which I thought was a really kind of remarkable thing.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: uh thing and i thought oh i need to think
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: about that more but that something feels really right about
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: that to me.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: What does that evoke for you when you say that well.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: I think that um the hero subdues the dragon and
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: uh kind of kills it and appropriates the energy of
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: the dragon in that way kind of incorporates it through
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: dominion but uh a woman's psyche it's more like has
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: a relationship with that energy and can draw on it,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: but it never quite, she's informed by it and she's
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: in partnership with it rather than owning it.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: And what I would say is that the woman's heroic
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 4: journey is not one of victory, dominion, and basic opposition.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: It's one of incorporation.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: There's some obvious echoes of biology here Men are, after all,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: built for thrusting. And women are generative of the mystery
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: of new life. And that in Christiana's artwork and drawings, paintings,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 4: you can see Hecate and Lilith and witches and sky
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: mothers and earth mothers and harpies and the list goes
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: on and on. that she incorporated and included in her
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: sense of self. There's a really inward process that I
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: think we're really circling around here, that that was imaged
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: in her life. Her work was inner, in my opinion,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: perhaps projection. Men did colonize that and take some advantage
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: There's some text here about one of her visions with
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: the dragon, and I think it's a little bit too
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: long to read, but this is reading from Claire Douglas,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: just to kind of a summary of it. Christiana's vision
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: showed her that a woman hero's task was not to
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: kill the dragon, but to keep it alive, even as
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: she separated herself from unconscious fusion with it and its power.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: So crucially, she did not make the dragon nice or
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: socially acceptable and nor did she kiss it in the
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: hope she would become a beautiful princess and live prettily
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: and happily ever after with and for some man. She
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: realized that a woman hero needed her dragon to stay
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: a dragon.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 4: You know, one of the thoughts that I've had for
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 4: years is sort of like, what's the new myth? Well,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: of course, nobody can actually just sort of think.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: Up a myth.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: But I'm wondering what Christiana Morgan's life, her art, the tower,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: the carvings, the stained glass windows, all of the stuff
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 4: that she designed, I wonder what that intimates us. suggests,
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: points to a window into where the collective psyche may
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 4: be going.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Right. I thought it was interesting that Hillary used that term,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: the new religion, right? Because there's that Max Zeller dream
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: that we love to quote where, you know, Zach, Deb,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: why don't you tell the Max Zeller dream? Because I
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: know you have it in your fingertips.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 4: I do, because I really love this image. Max Zeller
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: was an American analyst who went to see Jung shortly
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: after World War II. when the world was perhaps as
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 4: ever a mess, and he was questioning, you know, how
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: to help heal the world. And then he was going
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 4: to leave, and then he woke up and he realized,
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 4: oh my goodness, I forgot to tell Jung this dream
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 4: that I had. So he called Jung, and Jung said,
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: come on over, which I've always thought was, this is
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: a great response of, you know, never mind all the
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 4: schedules in our calendars, just come on over. And Max
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 4: Zeller's dream was that he saw people across a vast
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 4: sort of plain, all working on building, creating the pillars
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: of a great, vast temple. The foundation had been built,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 4: but as far as he could see, person after person
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 4: was working on constructing the tower that would eventually hold
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 4: the roof, and then there would be walls. And Jung said, yeah,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 4: you know, this is a dream that people all over
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: the world are having that you don't know in Russia
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: and China, everywhere, that this is the new religion. This
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 4: is the new temple that is being built and that
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: it would take hundreds of years in Jung's view to
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 4: be completed. But it's a beautiful image of both the
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 4: unity of one temple and And yet each person was
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 4: constructing his or her own pillar. So the individual spirit
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 4: and vision as part of a communal and collective enterprise.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: And in Jung's letters about religion and particularly his arguments with,
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: was it Father White? White. About the future of Christianity,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: Jung was redemptive. was predicting and felt that, in fact,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: we are seeing this in our time, this rejection of
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: inherited ideas, inherited theologies, inherited rituals, and that the turning within,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: the seeking the images, the seeking of the dreams that
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: inform what we, experience as spiritual, what we experience as
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: the inner side of life, and finding our own language
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: to describe and share that without it having to be
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: contained in some kind of a collective declaration, that that
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: is the future. And that Jung also felt that the
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: images of Christ and perhaps new images that were emerging
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: were also still relevant, but only relevant to the degree
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: that they were personally discovered, that they were a living
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: reality that a person could meet in their imaginal world
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: and be changed by. So basically what he was saying
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: is his theories of individuation were a way of him
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: trying to track the natural emergent process of coming into
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: relationship with God. Which he called the self.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: What I'm thinking about now is that I'd like to
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 4: think of Christiana Morgan's tower, Jung's tower, and Marie-Louise von
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: Franz's tower as three incredible pillars in a new mythic construct.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 4: And, you know, of course, it doesn't have to be
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: literalized architecturally.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, what I want it to be.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: I think about your new place or your offices is
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: not quite a tower, but it's got a.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: Little of that vibe.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 4: Yes, it does. As we engage everyone on her tower
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 4: and her work and her incredible individuation process that, she
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 4: lived and was faithful to her entire life.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: And that's really it, that she was faithful to her
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: inner world. And there were disappointments. She wasn't credited appropriately,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: and she was disappointed by her lover. But she remained
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: faithful to the image maker, to the dream maker, to
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: the center of her personality, which would be Never abandon
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: her or betray her, as it is for all of us.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: Right, right. And one of the things that really struck
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: me is she had this incredible analysis with Jung that
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: was so meaningful and so productive. And then he, you know,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: I think she felt pretty off-put by his rejection and
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: his denigration. And yet... she didn't let that separate her
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: from her task of being faithful to her own inner life.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: You know, she didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: She was like, well, you know, I don't know which
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: sense she made of it, but she came home from Zurich,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: I think somewhat trying to figure out what happened, but
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: it didn't stop her from pursuing her own inner life
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: and holding to these images faithfully and wanting to live
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: out her own pattern.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 4: It's really a heroic journey and such a great story
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 4: about the individuation process. In the face of all kinds
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 4: of cultural opposition, this isn't how women were supposed to, quote, be.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 4: She was an upper-class Bostonian, could have led a very
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: proper life of social prominence. She did all kinds of
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 4: things that went against cultural norms, sort of moral norms.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 4: She had this 40-year-long relationship with a man who was
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 4: not her husband. She kept on with her own professional
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 4: work with Harry Murray at Harvard and her work in
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 4: the Tower and stayed faithful to everyone in her life.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 4: She might be confrontive and insistent on her own path,
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 4: but she did not push anyone away. She did not say,
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 4: that's it. You know, basically, I'm done with you. So
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 4: she was not rebelling. And she did not have to
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 4: cut off any of these important relationships. It's a really
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 4: astonishing journey of what a life in pursuit of one's
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 4: own individuation can look like.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: I think we're all inspired by Christiana. I'm surprised I
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: hadn't been closer to her material during training honestly. So
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 3: it's like this whole other treat was discovered later on.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: And it's wonderful to have an unfolding understanding of more
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: and more.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: Well, and what's exciting is there's more papers coming forward.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: I think my understanding is that the Young family has
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: some of the letters between Christiana and And Jung, at
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: some point in the future, they'll come forward. It sounds like,
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: as we heard, her vision books are hopefully going to
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: be published. So it's an interesting chapter, I think, also
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: because it's part of how Jung came to America or
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: to the New World, let's say, to the States. There
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: are many parts to that story. And this is just
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: one part, but it's an important one.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 4: Very important. And that we see the shadow in so
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 4: many aspects of all of this. None of these people
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 4: were perfect. And that is not required, nor is it possible.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because Jung looks like such a jerk. I'm
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: going to use that clean word.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: When in this, you know, it's, it's kind of, it's
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: really interesting. Yeah, Jung is just kind of like a footnote.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: He's not, you know, he's not really a major player
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: in the book, which is fitting, I think. And he just,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: he looks like a jerk. And, and that's, you know, that, that,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: that there's an aspect you know he says I was
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: thinking about this he says at the end of MDR
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: you know my daimon required that I do this and
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: I hurt he's something like I know I've disappointed or
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: hurt many people you know so he kind of fesses
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: up to that the end of memories dreams reflections which
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: is this autobiography and I was reading the the The
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: Christiana Morgan biography is thinking, oh yeah, there it is.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: His daimon whipped him around.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: And I wonder if Christiana felt that remorse towards what
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: she put her husband through and her children. Right.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: This ferocious dedication to one's own psyche and the suffering
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 3: that that causes in other people. Again, there's always this
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 3: temptation to characterize... to venerate one person and demonize the other.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: Christiana didn't seem to have any problem creating great pain
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 3: for the people around her as well.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: Right, totally, totally.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 4: I think that's part of what is so inspiring about
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 4: all these lives that were intertwined with Christiana's or Jung's
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 4: or anyone's, is that they were not perfect people. They
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 4: really did have shadows. And so do we all. And
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 4: that need not stop us from living fully, honestly, consciously,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 4: rather than trying to be, quote, good, unquote, but to
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 4: be real and to grasp the trajectory of our own
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 4: lives as fully as we can.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: And the courage to be disliked, you know, in service
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: to making mistakes, to learning, to throwing convention aside. Jung
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: said what he thought or felt was correct, what was
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: rising inside of him, and it was up to Christiana
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: to toss it away or make use of it. But
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: the fact that she went home and she built a
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 3: tower based on her experience of Jung was also a
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: way for taking something for her own. I'm looking at
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: a few other questions. Is the tower still owned by
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 3: the school, someone shares. Yes, it is. And now that
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: Hillary has become involved and is collaborating with the school,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: that she's trying to change the way in which they
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 3: perceive the tower and its value, but also helping the
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: school find the funds. As we know, schools are not
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: always dripping in money. So helping the school find the
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: funds and the resources in order to renovate it and
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: bring it back the level that Christiana would have hoped for.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: And we'll have links to this in the show notes
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: when we eventually publish those. But yeah, there are efforts
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: to help the school. And also there's another question just
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: in our last couple of minutes. Someone says, why Jung's
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: change of heart toward her? And although I don't think
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: we'll know maybe perhaps ever, one of the suppositions is
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: she went off to Munich and consummated her affair with
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: Harry Murray. And, you know, sort of as, as young,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: I think had kind of encouraged her to do is
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: my understanding. And then when, when she came back, you know,
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: one of the thoughts is, well, he was jealous, you know, um, or,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: or that he found the visions, the vision material was, um,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: uncanny and unsettling. I mean, you know, there is some
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: stuff in the vision seminars where it's like, this is
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: so archaic that this is something that can't even be approached.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: So there was something that was challenging.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: She came, she left, she started an extramarital affair, and
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 3: Jung redirected her back to her own marriage, which is
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: something that the biographer totally misses. He says, would like
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 3: to be a part of your family again? Would you
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: consider having another child? Jung was also trying to link
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 3: her back into her husband and her children, perhaps wrongly so,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: but he was trying to re-stabilize something. Now, at what
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: point does the analyst align with every choice that the
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 3: ego makes of the analysand? But the idea that that
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: was jealous, I think, by the biographer is a bit
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: mean-spirited because it doesn't offer a broader frame of what
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 3: Christiana was choosing to do in her life and the
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 3: disruption that that was likely to cause her. So I
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 3: take exception with this nefarious assumption that way because it's
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 3: easy to have multiple perspectives and yes, Jung may have
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 3: said something that he regrets in the end But I
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 3: really want to cast off this idea of Christiana Morgan
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: as being victimized. There were things that should not have
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 3: happened that were disrespectful to her. But she also took
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 3: these experiences and crafted an extraordinary life.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 4: We have a glimpse of it in her papers and drawings,
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 4: and especially in the tower, which is glorious.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 4: It's poignant, it's beautiful, it's unique, and there it is.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 4: That's her biggest and most bold statement about who she was.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: Shall we maybe take a couple more questions from the audience?
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: Here's one. It's noted that Christiana's journey with Jung began
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: at the time of her Saturn return. Curious if that
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: was ever noted by her or Jung. did that have
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: any significance to either of them? Or do you have
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: any thoughts about that?
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 5: I haven't read anything in her notes about that. That's interesting. Yeah,
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 5: I don't. And I am looking into her astrology. I
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 5: have had a reading done of her astrology, which has
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 5: been very interesting. Wow.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: Any insights from that you want to share with us?
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 5: I haven't really put it all together yet. Okay.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 3: So.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe another time and certainly probably something be in
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 5: the film. Yeah.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: Someone else was asking if you'd be able to speak
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: about your father's relationship with your grandmother. And she wants
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: to also thank you for such a wonderful documentary.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 5: Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. Well, Christiana experienced very
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 5: severe postpartum depression after she gave birth to my father.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 5: She became pregnant a year after she married my grandfather,
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 5: who came back very, very damaged from World War I.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 5: Really a shell of a man. And she didn't want
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 5: to be pregnant. She really, as I said, had very
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 5: little maternal instinct. So my father was, for the most
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 5: part during his life, shuttled off to his grandmother's house,
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 5: her mother's house, or her sister's house. He spent a
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 5: lot of time with his cousins growing up and then
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 5: went off to schools. I think it was a very
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 5: troubled relationship. His father died when he was 13 and
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 5: spent his last few years, because he had tuberculosis that
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 5: he had contracted in the trenches of World War I,
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 5: was recommended by doctors to go down to the Warmer
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 5: Climates of the Southwest, which as an anthropology major, he
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 5: then lived amongst the Navajos and studied their dreams and
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 5: published some work around that, which is quite interesting. So
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 5: I think though later when my father married and there
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 5: was a little bit more reconciliation, I think he, Christiana
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 5: really loved my mother a lot. And so they spent
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 5: some years together that they grew to be quite close.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 5: But I think, you know, a lot of the damage
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 5: had been done. And I think that the later years
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 5: when her drinking was getting really bad, a lot of
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 5: her sisters and other sort of extended family members that
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 5: she had, you know, in some ways ignored or prioritized,
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 5: not prioritized because of her work, she was unable to
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 5: sort of reestablish those relationships. But I have wonderful interviews
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 5: with my mother that I did before she died about
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 5: her relationship with my grandmother. And just, you know, they
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 5: were quite close. And she talked about just how she
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 5: was just a riveting conversationalist. She was so dynamic and
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 5: witty and funny and engaging. And she was always reading
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 5: multiple books at once and had such a creative mind.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 5: It was putting theories together and loved to talk about
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 5: it and share it with people. She was a fascinating woman.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 3: When I think about Jung's idea of the evolution of
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: the animus in a woman's psyche, the idea that the
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 3: highest version of the animus is the logos, that the
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: is kind of the word of the self comes into
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 3: a woman's psyche and imbues her words and ideas with
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 3: a kind of numinous power. And it sounds like the
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 3: concept of that may have come from Christiana's images also.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 3: It seems like she was achieving that at times and
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 3: had that impact. And that ideas become the place of
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: the divine.
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 4: But Hilary, how do you understand your grandmother's later years?
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 4: Relationships with Harry, there was drinking, her death.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: Her death. Yeah, someone was asking about the nature of
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: her death. What do we know about it?
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 5: Well, I described kind of a little bit about the
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 5: death in the Virgin Islands, right?
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: You touched on it briefly, yeah.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah. I think it's one of the great mysteries. There
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 5: are so many different canyons of inquiry and mysteries that
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 5: I've come across in this story, which has just kept
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 5: it infinitely fascinating. But I know that... She did drown
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 5: in water. You know, I, as a child, saw her
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 5: swim every single day in the river outside the tower.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 5: We were always told as children never to swim alone,
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 5: but she was out there swimming by herself. So she
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 5: was an expert swimmer. But she did have a lot
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 5: of problems with alcohol, was drinking heavily. And she, according
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 5: to Harry, left... the ring that he had given her
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 5: in a bag on the beach by the water before
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 5: she entered it. And that she also left a passage
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 5: to be read over her graveside at her bedside table.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 5: And this is according to Harry, of course. But I
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 5: know according to my family members and some of his
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 5: colleagues that that Harry, when he came back, gave everyone
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 5: sort of a different story as to what happened down
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 5: there with her death. So I think it's a mystery
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 5: in many ways that we'll never know. Most recently, I
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 5: had cousins who were at the time living in Puerto
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 5: Rico who told me that Christiana and Harry came to
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 5: visit them on their way to St. John's Island. And
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 5: they'd never seen them happier. And it's also well known
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 5: that Harry was just beginning his two-year, well, he was
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 5: beginning a relationship with a woman who he then married
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 5: two years later. So there was just a lot going on.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 5: And hard to, you know, parse it all together, you know,
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 5: what really happened.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: Hilary, someone asked, Can you visit the tower? Is it
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: available to the public to visit in some form?
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 5: Well, one of the things we're hoping to do, so
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 5: I would say not really because there are people living
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 5: there now. There are teachers from the school that are
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 5: their residents. I occasionally have been leading tours, but the
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 5: residents are due to leave next spring. They will be vacating.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 5: And we will be doing a lot more of the
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 5: renovation then. And I'm hoping to have it open so
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 5: that I can lead tours and bring people that are
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 5: interested to see it.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 2: It'll be the first This Jungian Life travel venture.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, great.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 3: I'll go. Absolutely.
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 5: But one of our real hopes with the restoration of
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 5: the tower, my grandmother asked for it to be an
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 5: artist-in-residency and a scholar-in-residency. So we would like it to
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 5: be such that artists and scholars come and are able
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 5: to do their work there and also teach at the school.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 5: And then during the summer, open it up to the
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 5: wider public in order for, say, union groups to come
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 5: and do workshops and seminars. And there's a wonderful retreat
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 5: center right nearby to house people. So we're really hoping
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 5: that we can do it. Great, great, absolutely.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: That's really, really fantastic.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 4: I love that we're over time, according to the clock,
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 4: you're back, and that this has been put out into
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 4: the world. This is a dream in the world, and
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 4: people listening and those who will listen I believe we've
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 4: just really seeded a dream.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 5: Wonderful. Thank you.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 5: Well, I'm just hoping to continue that other people are
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 5: inspired by her work and her legacy. So thank you
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 5: for having me on.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 3: I would love to just take one second of silence,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 3: ask you to, all of us, but for you to
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 3: just go inside for a moment and ask your grandmother,
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 3: is there, Anything that she wishes that you had brought
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: forward that perhaps we hadn't prompted?
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 5: I think that she would want people to know that
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 5: the support, that her work, she would like others to
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 5: gain insight and inspiration so that they can continue their journeys.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 5: So I think she felt so lucky that she was
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 5: able to do it and gain so much from it.
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 5: And that's why it became her life work. And I
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 5: think she really, really wanted other people. You know, becoming
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 5: an analyst, she helped that. And I think her artwork
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 5: speaks of that. I think the tower speaks of that.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 5: I think the book they're writing speaks of that. She
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 5: wants others to feel insight and inspiration. and hope to
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 5: change their lives.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 4: She has touched us, and she can touch many more
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 4: as your dream comes into being for an artist's residence
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 4: and a retreat.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 5: Yes, I hope so. Thank you. Wonderful.
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an episode topic,
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: or join our mailing list, visit our website, thisunionlife.com. If
• 1:35:24
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• 1:35:27
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