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From Institution to Innovation: Cathie Caimano on the Future of Church · Future Christian

• 0:07
  >> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
• 0:10
  source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
• 0:12
  church in the 21st century. At the Future
• 0:15
  Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
• 0:19
  other faith leaders for helpful advice and
• 0:21
  practical wisdom to help you and your community of
• 0:24
  faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
• 0:28
  a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
• 0:30
  your faith community, this podcast is designed to
• 0:34
  challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools
• 0:37
  you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
• 0:39
  little bit about the guest for this episode.
• 0:44
  >> Cathie Caimano: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
• 0:47
  Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Cathie
• 0:50
  Kaimano. Father Cathie is an Episcopal Priest
• 0:54
  ordained for 25 years. Since 2016, she has been a
• 0:59
  free range priest doing her own ministry business
• 1:02
  with a mission to help help reimagine ministry in
• 1:05
  the 21st century. She serves a small congregation
• 1:09
  in a, ah, cage free way and writes coaches,
• 1:12
  teaches and consults about practical ways of being
• 1:15
  and doing church in sustainable, faithful, joyful
• 1:19
  ways. Cathie lives near Charlotte with her
• 1:22
  wonderful husband and adorable Great Dane. When
• 1:25
  she's not thinking about God and church, you can
• 1:28
  find her taking photos of the sunrise or out
• 1:31
  running somewhere. A, uh, reminder before we start
• 1:34
  today's podcast, please take a moment to subscribe
• 1:37
  to the podcast, leave a review and share Future
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  Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
• 1:43
  Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us
• 1:47
  an email@laurensonatemediapro.com with comments,
• 1:52
  questions or ideas for future episodes. Your
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  support means a lot in making this podcast
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  possible.
• 2:09
  >> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
• 2:11
  This is Loren Richmond Jr. And today I am pleased
• 2:14
  to be welcoming Father Cathie Caimano Hello and
• 2:17
  welcome to the show.
• 2:19
  >> Cathie Caimano: Hi. Well, glad to be here.
• 2:21
  >> Loren: Yeah, looking forward to having this conversation.
• 2:24
  So why don't you, uh, we're just talking a little
• 2:26
  bit offline about working out and fitness and, you
• 2:30
  know, say I sometimes ask folks anything fun you
• 2:33
  want to say about yourself. So you and your
• 2:35
  husband are big into outdoor adventure? It sounds
• 2:39
  like.
• 2:39
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yes. Well, that's so funny because I'm definitely
• 2:42
  not a nature girl, although I do go outside
• 2:44
  because I do a lot of running. Yes, My husband's a
• 2:46
  big triathlete and I am a, I am a competitive age
• 2:50
  group runner. Now I'm, I'm about to turn 59, so
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  I'm getting ready to be a fast old lady, I like to
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  say. So I spend a lot of time running and um, that
• 2:57
  really does hook back into my spirituality and
• 2:59
  into my vocation. But we do together that I think
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  that's probably our, the biggest thing in our
• 3:05
  lives besides our work and our faith and our
• 3:07
  family. And our dog is, um, running and he does
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  triathlete. So. Yeah, we're big sports people in
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  that way.
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  >> Loren: I remember when my, when I was a kid, my dad would
• 3:16
  always be like, telling me to pay attention to
• 3:19
  those age brackets. But, you know, you get into
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  this extent where it kind of works against you and
• 3:24
  then I guess it works for you again, I suppose.
• 3:26
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yeah, it's really great. Like, um, oh, don't even
• 3:30
  get me started on my running. And we'll never talk
• 3:32
  about anything else. But, um. But that is one of
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  the good things about older is that sudden, like,
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  a lot of people sort of drop out when you're in
• 3:38
  your mid-30s to mid-40s. I mean, you're there with
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  every. You live in Colorado, I live in North
• 3:41
  Carolina. Those are both places that are packed
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  full of athletes. And, you know, everybody's
• 3:45
  better than you. I mean, everybody just is because
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  there's so many people doing it. But once you get
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  into your 50s, and now I'm pushing 60, you know, a
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  lot of people don't do that anymore, or they've
• 3:54
  just quit or they've gotten injured or they've
• 3:55
  done other things. And so the people who are into
• 3:58
  it are into it. And it's, it's a much more
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  competitive. But it's also smaller, so you get to
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  be a bigger fish in a smaller pond.
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  >> Loren: Good to look forward too.
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  Uh, share about your faith journey, what that
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  looked like in the past and what that looks like
• 4:12
  today.
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  >> Cathie Caimano: All Ah, right. Okay. I'll try to get this really
• 4:15
  short, but, um, I was raised Roman Catholic. I am
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  an Episcopal priest now. Um, I have been an
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  episcopal priest for 25 years. And I was thinking
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  about this. Um, there's so much to say. But I will
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  say that I always just had a relationship with
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  God. Right? So I was fortunate enough to go to
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  Georgetown University, uh, back in the day when
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  somebody like me could get into Georgetown
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  University. And, um, it was a Jesuit university
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  and I was Roman Catholic. I didn't go there
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  because it was Catholic school. Um, but it just
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  turned out to be this great thing. And every, at
• 4:49
  that time, every incoming freshman had to take a
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  class called the Problem of God. And I just love
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  that. I mean, the theory is that in order to be a
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  well educated person, you have to grapple with God
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  at some point, right? Whether you believe God
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  exists or not, whether you follow a particular
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  faith or not. And it was fast, it was fascinating
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  and fabulous. And you Read all these books from
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  people who are like stark atheists all the way to
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  people who are completely devoted followers of
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  different faiths. And then you had to like,
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  basically write a paper and say, like, where are
• 5:19
  you in all of this? And people really got into it.
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  And I just, I remember that because in the end it
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  was just like, I just know God, right? Like from a
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  small age, I talked to God, God talked to me. I've
• 5:30
  always felt God's presence. I've always felt like
• 5:32
  I could sort of discern where God was and could
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  feel God. And so I was like, this is beautiful and
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  wonderful. Sort of doing the intellectual stuff.
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  And I just know that God's with me. Like, that's
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  just kind of been my journey, right? And sort of
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  becoming more comfortable with that and becoming
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  more comfortable sort of talking about that
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  without sounding like a complete weirdo, you know,
• 5:55
  and obviously living into it. You know, I, I got,
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  I had a real true calling experience when I, at
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  the end of college, I did the, uh, Ignatian
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  exercises. So I did a five day silent retreat on
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  the spring break of my senior year. I'm like, you
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  know, everybody else in the world is like out
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  summer partying for five days straight. And I am
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  like in a convent in Western Pennsylvania, not,
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  not speaking for five days. And, um, I heard, I
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  mean, I heard God. I heard Jesus say Jesus in
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  remembrance of me. I just heard Jesus voice and I
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  felt Jesus presence. And I knew I was called to be
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  a priest. And then I thought, well, that's really
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  funny because I'm a girl and I'm 22 and I'm a
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  Roman Catholic. So, you know, I just kind of went
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  on with my Life and then 10, you know, just.
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  That's a very long story. But the door started to
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  come open to me. I discovered the Episcopal Church
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  once I moved to North Carolina. I just, just drawn
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  to it. I was not thinking about getting ordained.
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  But then there I was and then things started to
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  happen and then I just walked through that door
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  and here I am.
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  >> Loren: Yeah, we were talking about this a little bit
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  again before we started recording. And I want you
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  to talk more about it here just for our listeners,
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  because I think it's a real interesting. You've,
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  as listeners, heard you have the title Father
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  Cathie
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  >> Cathie Caimano: Yes.
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  >> Loren: Talk about how you chose to, uh, accept and retain
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  that title.
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  >> Cathie Caimano: Well, you know, this is gonna make me sound like
• 7:16
  the church geek that I am, but like your senior
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  year of seminary and the Episcopal Church and
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  senior year of seminary, everybody's getting ready
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  to launch out into the world. And most people are
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  on the ordination track. And so you have this like
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  conversation of like what you're going to go by,
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  what type. You know, this is like what, what
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  people and young people who are about to be
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  formed, you know, care about. And um, you know, it
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  just struck me at the time that like all the men
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  were just automatically going to be Father Bill or
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  Father Jones or whatever. Some of them in the
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  south might have been like Mr. So and so if
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  they're in the low church tradition, but really it
• 7:47
  went without saying that they were going to be
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  fathers. And so then the women were having all
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  these like strangled conversations about like
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  what? Like I'll just be Cathie or I'll just be
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  Beth or maybe I'll just be Reverend. And you know,
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  and I was like that, why should I have to worry
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  about that, right? To me, Father in our tradition
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  is the title of a priest and I am a priest, right?
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  And so to me it's like that, like to me that's a
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  no brainer. Um, and I said to you earlier, and
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  I'll say it again, like I don't think of myself as
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  a woman priest, right? And I think of Father as a
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  title for a priest. And it doesn't, it's not
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  really about gender at all. It's about what we
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  were talking about like fatherly qualities. And so
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  I think it's about, you know, God's, you know,
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  care about and you know, it's about protection and
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  leadership and those sorts of things. And not that
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  women can't do those things but like things that
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  are thought of as typically fatherly, if you will,
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  which I think women can do, right? Just like men
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  can. But so anyway, to not get into the gender
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  thing and uh, some women in my tradition go by
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  mother and that's totally fine. Although I will
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  also say a lot of people, more and more,
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  especially women, but also men are like, well, I
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  don't want a title. I don't want, I'm m just going
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  to call myself, you know, Joe, just call. But you
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  know, to me that is also kind of scary because um,
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  to me that's about authority and my priesthood is
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  not about my own authority. Like I would be way
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  too scared to do what I do. It's not the Church of
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  Cathy, right? It's not as I don't not, it's not on
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  my own authority that I am a priest. I am formed
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  and held up and sealed by the Holy Spirit and
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  ordained into this tradition. So I do this by the
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  authority of the Church that is vested in me. And
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  so therefore, to me, that title is very, very
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  important. Because it's not me. Right. It is the
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  church that has vested this in me and the Holy
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  Spirit that has vested this in me. And if I didn't
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  believe that, there's no way I do the things that
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  I do. And it would be very deforming, if you will,
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  I think, uh, for myself, and I'm gathering, you
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  know, for the people who would follow me.
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  >> Loren: Yeah, that's a really interesting observation you
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  make about that title representing your ecclesial
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  authority, not just for your, you know, of your
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  own authority or even of your individual church
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  authority, but of, you know, of the traditions
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  authority of this big group of believers.
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  >> Cathie Caimano: Uh, yeah. And we believe the Holy Spirit. Right.
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  Like, you can't take it away. Like, I could. My
• 10:02
  bishop could keep me from serving as a priest. But
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  we believe that ordination is. You don't take it
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  back. It's like baptism. It changes you, and you
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  are a priest forever. And so it is literally part
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  of my being now.
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  >> Loren: Yeah.
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  >> Cathie Caimano: Yeah.
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  >> Loren: That's cool to hear.
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  Uh, share, if you would, about anything you want
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  to share about spiritual practices or disciplines
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  that are helpful for you.
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  >> Cathie Caimano: Well, that's really funny, and we'll probably talk
• 10:25
  about this later in the conversation, but I
• 10:27
  recently started this thing called a gym for your
• 10:31
  soul. Um, and so it's basically like going back to
• 10:34
  ancient Christian practices. And so what did it
• 10:37
  mean for the first Christians to be Christian?
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  Right. And so before there were denominations, you
• 10:43
  know, all the stuff. Right. And also to think
• 10:45
  about it like a gym, like, um, not intellectual,
• 10:47
  not how to not in, not what do we believe, but the
• 10:51
  actual activities, the actual what do you do in
• 10:54
  your life that makes you a Christian? And so one
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  of the things we're working on right now, so I'm
• 11:00
  kind of doing the basic workouts, and the first
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  one is prayer, right? But it is repetitive prayer.
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  So it is using the ancient prayers, like the Jesus
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  prayer, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy
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  on me, a sinner, the Lord's prayer, the Hail Mary,
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  you know, the short snippets of the various
• 11:15
  psalms, and repeating them over and over and over
• 11:18
  again. And of course, that's how rosaries came to
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  be and prayer beads came to be because the
• 11:23
  monastics used them to count their prayers, right?
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  Then they would pray a hundred times a day or 25
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  times a day or whatever. So. So that is the thing
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  that I've been doing lately is like, I'm counting
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  on my fingers. I sometimes Use my prayer beads.
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  But I say my Jesus prayer ten times every morning.
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  I say my, uh, Our Father when I'm doing my
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  exercises, when I'm doing, like, you know, so to
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  the. Really getting into the repetitive prayers,
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  um, as a way, as, you know, to just, like, it's a
• 11:48
  calming thing, it's a focus thing, but also it's
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  a. To just sort of carry that prayer with me all
• 11:54
  the time in all the various parts of my life.
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  >> Loren: Yeah. I think it's so interesting that you. Trexo.
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  Right. Like, I'll tease it here because I've.
• 12:02
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yeah. Well, and I. And I pronounce it traco. It's
• 12:04
  really. It has an X in the middle, but I take. I
• 12:07
  use a lot of the old Greek words, and so I'm using
• 12:09
  the. The. The chi as the chi. Rho. So. So, yes, I.
• 12:13
  We. I. We pronounce, uh, it traco.
• 12:16
  >> Loren: Okay. My.
• 12:17
  >> Cathie Caimano: Even though it is an ax. Yeah, no worries, Rusty.
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  No worries. It's okay.
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  >> Loren: Um, but I'm reminded, you know, we just both
• 12:28
  talked about working out and enjoying to be
• 12:31
  active. And, like, I'm thinking about, like,
• 12:34
  Thursday was leg day, and, like, you know, I do
• 12:36
  those 10 reps or 12 reps of three sets or
• 12:39
  whatever, which is very repetitive and
• 12:41
  ritualistic. And I grew up certainly in a
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  tradition that was antagonistic, uh, uh, maybe at
• 12:50
  worst, but certainly suspicious of ritual and
• 12:55
  repetitive nature. But, like, we wouldn't say that
• 12:57
  about, like, working out. Like, we'd say, like,
• 12:59
  hey, this is the. This is the. This is the reps I
• 13:02
  need to do to get fit. I'm thinking about, like,
• 13:07
  my wife and I just celebrated 21 years of marriage
• 13:09
  and, like, how much work it is to maintain.
• 13:11
  >> Cathie Caimano: Congratulations.
• 13:13
  >> Loren: Yeah, thank you. And, like, what is it, do you
• 13:18
  think? I suppose we're getting off track here a
• 13:19
  little bit. But I just. I'm struck by, like, how
• 13:22
  much. How much a relationship, God really, like,
• 13:27
  takes intentionality. And there seems to be this
• 13:32
  assumption that, like, it'll either come or it
• 13:34
  won't come, and if it. If it doesn't get, like, it
• 13:36
  should just come to you. Does that make sense?
• 13:38
  >> Cathie Caimano: Right, right, right. And. And that is sort of one
• 13:41
  of the reasons why that I started this whole thing
• 13:44
  about a gym for, like, especially because I, like,
• 13:47
  I just described. I'm somebody who. I feel like I
• 13:49
  have this sort of, like, spiritual pathway that I
• 13:51
  find it's very easy for me to access. And first of
• 13:55
  all, I don't think everybody has that right. I
• 13:57
  don't. And, you know, Again, it's an intellectual
• 14:00
  argument, like, do we all have it? And then some
• 14:03
  of it, some of us have it more. We. We exercise it
• 14:07
  more. Right. Or are, ah, some people just not
• 14:09
  built that way or, you know, blah, blah, blah,
• 14:11
  blah. But then I also think, yeah, it goes back
• 14:14
  to, I think, what's that praise. We are what we
• 14:19
  habitually do. Right. And so I would never say
• 14:22
  that, like, they're repetitive saying that Jesus
• 14:25
  prayer ten times every morning for me is gonna
• 14:28
  replace the times when I'm just alone with God and
• 14:30
  I talk with God, or the silence or the
• 14:32
  contemplative prayer or the worship. None of that,
• 14:35
  but just like you just said. But you know, as a
• 14:37
  runner, and this is part of how I sort of develop
• 14:39
  this, is that, yeah, I hate planks, and I still do
• 14:43
  them, um, you know, like five times a week, you
• 14:45
  know, because supposedly that's better for my core
• 14:48
  and supposedly it's gonna help me be a better
• 14:49
  runner. Right. So I just do that. So. So it's. It
• 14:52
  is, I think, the building blocks. And I do really
• 14:54
  believe in that whole sense of, like, stretching
• 14:55
  and strengthening our souls, the intentionality of
• 14:58
  putting ourselves in those places. So, you know,
• 15:01
  so maybe, you know, maybe. I mean, hopefully it's
• 15:04
  bringing us closer to God. And I like to think
• 15:06
  it's like opening that portal, whatever that
• 15:07
  spiritual portal is, it. It makes us feel that.
• 15:10
  And just like when you are running or cycling,
• 15:13
  sometimes you feel this ethereal, like you are so
• 15:17
  connected to everything and everything is clicking
• 15:18
  into place. And part of that, it's not. It's not.
• 15:21
  It's not math. Right. It's not exactly that thing.
• 15:24
  It's alchemy. And. And so I think it's the same
• 15:27
  with our, uh, connection with God, is that, you
• 15:30
  know, we. We do enough wraps, right. And we're
• 15:32
  putting ourselves in that place, and somehow it is
• 15:34
  that alchemy where, when. When that portal opens
• 15:38
  up, then there we are. Right?
• 15:40
  >> Loren: Right. Because we certainly want. Wouldn't want to
• 15:42
  get into this thing of, like, we can command God's
• 15:44
  presence like through, you know, five priors or
• 15:47
  whatever.
• 15:48
  >> Cathie Caimano: Right, Right. It's not magic. Yeah.
• 15:52
  >> Loren: I mean, it's frustrating, I suppose, but I think,
• 15:54
  uh, if it was the other way, then we'd have whole
• 15:57
  other issues.
• 16:00
  >> Cathie Caimano: Right.
• 16:00
  >> Loren: I mean, I appreciate. I really appreciate the
• 16:03
  intentionality around this.
• 16:05
  >> Cathie Caimano: Thank you.
• 16:05
  And I'm gonna say one more thing before I make
• 16:07
  you. I'll let you go back. We go about your
• 16:09
  marriage because. And I'm gonna say relationship
• 16:10
  is one of the things one of the practices in the
• 16:12
  trip. But I will also say that my. I've only been
• 16:16
  married for 10 years, even though I'm older than
• 16:17
  you. But, um, people always say marriages work.
• 16:20
  And I get very upset about that. Cause I just kind
• 16:22
  of feel like work sounds like drudgery. And I
• 16:24
  don't think marriage is drudgery. But to me,
• 16:26
  marriage is practice, right? Oh yeah.
• 16:29
  >> Loren: Marriage is practice.
• 16:30
  >> Cathie Caimano: Right. You show up every day. It is. In some ways
• 16:34
  it is your routine and your ro. But that's the
• 16:37
  good news. It is the basics of uh. Like you are
• 16:40
  there for the things that your marriage needs.
• 16:44
  Right. And so. And also to me, there's way more
• 16:47
  joy in that. Right? So that's fun, right? Like,
• 16:51
  you know, it's not always fun. But um, just like
• 16:54
  your face life, just like your spirit, your
• 16:56
  activities, your relationships are practice,
• 17:00
  right?
• 17:01
  >> Loren: Yeah, I think that's. I like that metaphor. I
• 17:04
  think that's great. I was reading something. I was
• 17:08
  just reading something at lunch about this three
• 17:10
  hour practice. Uh, that some relationships are
• 17:16
  trying of three hours at night. Like it's meant
• 17:18
  for like parents after the kids go to bed, which
• 17:21
  frankly I don't stay up two hours past my kids go
• 17:23
  to bed. But I can cram it into two hours like if
• 17:26
  you really wanted to. But it's like an hour of
• 17:29
  working together to clean up the house and do
• 17:31
  chores. An hour of like uninterrupted, just you
• 17:35
  and them time. And then an hour for yourselves
• 17:39
  each alone to kind of recharge yourselves. So even
• 17:43
  if it was like 45 minutes each, I suppose, like,
• 17:45
  wow, that could be. Again, it's that practice.
• 17:48
  That practice, like you said.
• 17:50
  Well, I suppose we're already doing it like we
• 17:53
  worried we might do is getting off topic.
• 17:56
  >> Cathie Caimano: So that's okay. Maybe this is the topic. Maybe
• 18:00
  this is where we're. This is good topics.
• 18:01
  >> Loren: This is good topics. But uh, Cathie I had her on
• 18:04
  because first just I appreciate what she shares on
• 18:08
  substack and social channels where I follow her on
• 18:12
  about the institution of church and changes that
• 18:17
  are coming or might need to come or how the church
• 18:19
  is navigating disruption in our current time. And
• 18:23
  I think what first kind of what I first found
• 18:29
  appealing or intriguing, I should say is your
• 18:32
  title of your subset, pre range priest. So maybe
• 18:35
  let's start with that kind of what that means to
• 18:39
  you, how you came about that and what that looks
• 18:41
  like. And I think that'll lead us into some
• 18:43
  further conversation.
• 18:45
  >> Cathie Caimano: Thank you. So I was ordained in the year 2000 so,
• 18:49
  um, right on the cusp of the 20th, literally
• 18:51
  January of 2000, so the cusp of the 21st century.
• 18:54
  And I was basically, uh, formed as an old school
• 18:59
  priest in the old school system. Right. Like when
• 19:01
  I went through seminary and the formation of
• 19:03
  becoming a priest, I never thought that I would do
• 19:05
  anything but go from one congregation to another,
• 19:08
  serving in a very traditional way by meaning the
• 19:11
  priest is in charge and you have, you know, a
• 19:14
  staff and a building and a set of programs and you
• 19:17
  have stewardship and, you know, you do good work
• 19:19
  and you have Sunday worship. And that's wonderful.
• 19:22
  And he in practice, you know, once I started doing
• 19:26
  that and I served three congregations, um, I was
• 19:29
  like. And I did the thing I always say, like, this
• 19:31
  just came out. It was an accident, but I actually
• 19:34
  did have like the career trajectory thing. Right.
• 19:38
  So I was a baby priest at a big church in New York
• 19:40
  City, and then I was the associate priest at a
• 19:44
  medium sized church in North Carolina. Then I went
• 19:46
  off to become a rector in Kansas, uh, in Wichita,
• 19:49
  Kansas. And I like to say I was the worst rector
• 19:52
  ever. And the reason was that it was by then that
• 19:56
  I started to sort of come up against, like, how
• 20:00
  much I hated it. Like, I love ministry, I love
• 20:05
  God, I love prayer and worship. I hated being a
• 20:09
  rector, and I was bad at it because I knew all the
• 20:13
  answers and I was going to tell all those people
• 20:14
  how they, they could fix everything. And you might
• 20:17
  guess how that went over with that congregation.
• 20:19
  And we've come a long way and like, you know, um,
• 20:21
  I love those people, but still we had a hard time
• 20:23
  and there was other things going on. But the point
• 20:25
  is, I came up against, like, what am I doing here?
• 20:28
  Like, why is it my job to uphold this institution?
• 20:32
  And incidentally, things don't work the way that
• 20:35
  they're supposed to. Right. So stewardship doesn't
• 20:38
  really bring in enough money to pay the bills.
• 20:40
  Right. So they're constantly under money stress
• 20:43
  and there's not. And people aren't interested in
• 20:45
  committees and they're not really all that
• 20:46
  interested in Sunday school. And they want to come
• 20:48
  to worship, but they want it to be a very specific
• 20:50
  way. And people leave because they're mad and, you
• 20:52
  know, we don't really get new members and all the
• 20:55
  things. Things, right. And then it becomes like
• 20:57
  meetings and meetings and meetings and you're
• 20:58
  working every night and, you know, you know, and
• 21:01
  so I laughed and I came back to North Carolina and
• 21:05
  I worked for the bishop of North Carolina, um, who
• 21:08
  then became the Head of the whole entire Episcopal
• 21:11
  Church, Bishop Michael Curry, you might have heard
• 21:12
  of him, my dear friend, I just was just texting
• 21:14
  with him two seconds ago. He, um. And that was
• 21:18
  amazing. And I was what's called a canon. So I was
• 21:21
  uh, basically in house congregational development
• 21:24
  and clergy support for 60 congregations because it
• 21:27
  was in a geographical area of the diocese. And
• 21:30
  most of those congregations, like 90% of them were
• 21:33
  like fewer than 50 members and most of those were
• 21:36
  like fewer than 20 members. And so it was my job
• 21:38
  to go around to these rural places and meet with
• 21:42
  these churches. And I have bigger churches too,
• 21:44
  and to talk with the clergy. And long story short,
• 21:47
  I realized that it wasn't just me, right? Like all
• 21:50
  of these churches were struggling, especially the
• 21:52
  small ones, but even the medium sized ones. Clergy
• 21:55
  were stressed, congregations were growing. They
• 21:57
  were barely hanging in there. There's waiting to
• 21:59
  be closed. They could not figure out how to move
• 22:01
  forward. They, you know, and there was so much
• 22:04
  stress. And I just kept thinking, there has got to
• 22:06
  be a better way to do this, right? There's just
• 22:09
  gotta be a better way, right? And, um, Bishop
• 22:12
  Curry got elected to be the PB and so that was the
• 22:15
  end of 2015. And so he actually, and my husband
• 22:18
  coined the term free range priest. He started
• 22:20
  calling me the free range priest. And, and because
• 22:24
  I was all, I was out there. And so then I just
• 22:26
  decided, I'm going to do this. I'm going to become
• 22:28
  a free range priest. What does that mean? I have
• 22:30
  no idea what it, what I decided I was going to do
• 22:32
  is, well, two really, really big things. The first
• 22:36
  thing was it's a business. Like I started an LLC
• 22:39
  the day that I started Free Range Priest. And um,
• 22:42
  so that was part of the whole I'm going to get
• 22:46
  outside of this system, right? This system, right?
• 22:49
  The institutional, organizational, administrative
• 22:52
  system, not the faith church. You know, you, you
• 22:55
  heard me talking. I am full on a priest. Um, but
• 22:58
  how can we do church differently? And so that just
• 23:02
  became the thing that I did. And so that has
• 23:04
  changed. I mean, at first it was like crickets and
• 23:07
  I have no idea what I was doing. And mostly the
• 23:09
  biggest thing that I did in my first year of
• 23:10
  ministry is got the pension fund to let me stay in
• 23:13
  it, which I still think is an awesome thing, you
• 23:15
  know, so I can, um, Free range priest pays my
• 23:17
  pension. So I get, I'm or I'm recognized as a, as
• 23:20
  a ministry in the Episcopal Church with my
• 23:22
  bishop's support. And then it was, and then it was
• 23:25
  coded, right? And So I did a lot of also stuff
• 23:27
  digital. I also realized that technology is going
• 23:30
  to be a huge part of this and that, uh, the 20th
• 23:33
  century organizational models and institutional
• 23:35
  models are extremely resistant to technology for
• 23:39
  whatever reason, but they are extreme. And, uh,
• 23:42
  the lack of the ability of the institution to let
• 23:47
  technology be at its base, if you will, is, you
• 23:52
  know, I just think it's. I think. I think money
• 23:54
  and technology really are two of the huge things
• 23:56
  are like just huge shifts into the 21st century
• 23:59
  that all the other institutions in the world were
• 24:01
  doing. That, uh, for whatever reason, at least the
• 24:03
  mainline church was just like, not going to go
• 24:06
  there and just was sort of stuck. I'd like to say
• 24:08
  we're stuck between the first and the 21st
• 24:10
  century. Like right in the middle between the
• 24:13
  first and the 21st Century. And so, so. So once
• 24:17
  Covid happened and once we all went online, well,
• 24:20
  then my phone did not stop ringing because then
• 24:21
  everybody wants me to help have them, you know, do
• 24:23
  tech help. And, um, that's a whole other thing
• 24:25
  that we can talk about in another conversation
• 24:27
  about. Like, my last. My last secular job before I
• 24:31
  went to seminary was I was the assistant to the
• 24:34
  chair of the computer science department at Duke
• 24:36
  University. So this is the mid-90s, so I learned
• 24:38
  how to code HTML and do all these things. So I was
• 24:41
  just like, full. I just was in. Have been always
• 24:44
  in love with technology and. And just love it and
• 24:46
  also could see how.
• 24:48
  How it could transform ministry. But I just think
• 24:51
  that the institution isn't having it right. So
• 24:53
  during these last 10 years, basically, I write, I
• 24:56
  coach, I consult, I, um, you know, teach. I do all
• 25:01
  the things, you know, trying to help. And actually
• 25:04
  I've really kind of burst forward in this last
• 25:06
  year. Substack has helped a lot. But also I think
• 25:09
  now that I've been doing this for almost 10 years,
• 25:11
  I actually, like, have some ideas of what, you
• 25:14
  know, some, like, basic, um, you know, kind of
• 25:20
  four major sort of areas, you know, that I think
• 25:23
  really need to sort of be addressed or go towards
• 25:27
  in order to transform. And kind of the biggest one
• 25:30
  comes is this systematic change. Like, I'm doing
• 25:32
  this big workshop tomorrow night on systematic
• 25:34
  change. Because I think one of the things that I
• 25:36
  realized is that the institution is not only not
• 25:40
  interested in changing, but the institution can't
• 25:42
  change. I no longer believe in institutional
• 25:44
  change. Like, it's just. It can't not.
• 25:46
  >> Loren: Yeah, let's dive into that because that, uh, leads
• 25:48
  into one of the first big questions I want to ask
• 25:51
  you and and this comes from a book. I think it's
• 25:55
  out from Dwight Shiley and Larry.
• 25:57
  >> Cathie Caimano: Love Dwight Shiley. Oh, I love D. Shiley. Yeah,
• 26:01
  I've met Dwight. Yeah, I, I read his books. Like,
• 26:03
  I mean, he's amazing.
• 26:04
  >> Loren: Yeah, well, he's, I mean my, uh, I have to confess
• 26:08
  my favorite theologian is Nandra Root, but Dwight
• 26:10
  Shiley is becoming one of my top top five
• 26:13
  Christian thinkers, at least currently. Yeah, but
• 26:19
  they write about this, you know, bureaucratic
• 26:23
  model, which is like the traditional
• 26:25
  denominational model versus what we have now, at
• 26:29
  least broadly in culture of a networked model. And
• 26:33
  like, I heard it from what you said. Like, I'm
• 26:35
  thinking, I'm laughing at myself a lot. Like the
• 26:37
  pension fund, like, what kind of, you know, I feel
• 26:41
  like that's like the thing that I'm constantly
• 26:42
  thinking about is like, how do I, like, you know,
• 26:46
  how do I, how do I keep. Keep connected enough so
• 26:50
  that I can keep contributing to my pension fund
• 26:52
  and have some money that's going to come with me
• 26:54
  eventually. But also like, because it's a very
• 26:57
  much of this top down bureaucratic model. It's
• 27:00
  like I get looked at, I think, with, with
• 27:04
  suspicion and at least side eyes when I'm like, oh
• 27:06
  yeah, I work for all these. I work with and for
• 27:10
  many different traditions and many different kinds
• 27:12
  of faith leaders. Like, I'm ordained in one
• 27:15
  tradition, I go to a church in another tradition.
• 27:16
  Like, I work with a lot of Episcopal folks. Like,
• 27:21
  what do you think make, uh, of that? I mean, I
• 27:23
  think that's the biggest challenge I see.
• 27:26
  >> Cathie Caimano: Well, say that, say. I mean, I could say like a
• 27:28
  million things about what you just said, but what,
• 27:30
  what are. I'm trying to guess what you're trying.
• 27:32
  >> Loren: This networked. Like, what do you think of this
• 27:34
  networked versus bureaucratic? Like, how do we.
• 27:37
  >> Cathie Caimano: Well, yeah, okay, so that's one of the. Yeah,
• 27:39
  that's one of the major. I think, I think you hit
• 27:41
  that or Dwight did or whoever. Everybody did. Like
• 27:44
  the, the movement from sort of like stable uh,
• 27:48
  institutions. Right. Like, and um, and by which I
• 27:51
  mean like type, top down, uh, paternalistic, if
• 27:55
  you will. Um, and I don't even mean that again in
• 27:58
  any kind of genderized way, but just the whole
• 28:00
  like leadership at the top and then everybody else
• 28:03
  follows along, standardized sort of factory model
• 28:06
  and then moving into this more agile, more
• 28:10
  networked, more individualized. And I think that
• 28:13
  uh, that is always going to be a place where the
• 28:15
  church, which is obviously community driven and
• 28:19
  seeks to go towards community, but I think we
• 28:22
  still have to be open to the concept of the idea
• 28:24
  that today's world is much more individualized.
• 28:28
  And I think that there are ways that we can make
• 28:30
  that connection. But 100%. And I, I, you may have
• 28:35
  read some of the stuff I wrote, but, you know, I
• 28:37
  have this big thing about post denominationalism.
• 28:40
  Right. Like, I, I think that we, I think we
• 28:43
  already are post denominational in that I think
• 28:46
  that most people in most of our pews could care
• 28:48
  less what brand name of Christianity we are and
• 28:50
  that, uh. I know you follow Ryan Burkhart and.
• 28:53
  Ryan, Ryan, what's his name? Burkhart. Is that
• 28:55
  right? Burge. That's right. Ryan Burkhart is
• 28:57
  somebody else. I know Ryan Burge, you know, graphs
• 28:59
  about religion, which. I also think he's
• 29:01
  fantastic. You know, that like the rise of non
• 29:03
  denominational, um, but I would call it post
• 29:06
  denominational in that sense that, like, I think
• 29:08
  that there are ways that we can bring our various
• 29:10
  traditions forward. And I see that all the time in
• 29:13
  things like evangelicals becoming orthodox. Right.
• 29:17
  Like, and Episcopalians becoming evangelical,
• 29:19
  which is beaut. I think it's beautiful, right,
• 29:21
  that we can bring our traditions along and share
• 29:24
  them and sort of like braid them together in these
• 29:26
  fantastic ways in an agile networked world that we
• 29:30
  just cannot do when we live in these like, like
• 29:33
  huge lumbering, you know, powers of hierarchical
• 29:38
  denominational differences. Right. And you can't
• 29:41
  do anything until you get like 12 committees to
• 29:43
  say it's okay. And then I can't do anything. And
• 29:45
  then, you know, and it just. And, but anyway, so I
• 29:49
  have just, I have given up, um, believing that the
• 29:51
  institution is going to change. Right. And no
• 29:53
  matter how much it wants to. And I think this is
• 29:57
  scary and it's hard, but it's true. And I think
• 29:59
  it's liberating. I think we have to truly embrace
• 30:03
  and even celebrate that the institutions are
• 30:06
  dying. The institutions, not the church, not the
• 30:09
  traditions, not the. All the things that are
• 30:11
  beautiful about how we follow God. Um, but the,
• 30:15
  these things are crumbling to the ground in front
• 30:18
  of our eyes, right? Like, I'm an Episcopalian, so
• 30:20
  like our churches, most mainlines are. But like.
• 30:23
  >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:25
  >> Cathie Caimano: It's crumbling inside and we're, it's crushing us
• 30:27
  underneath it. And so that's, to me, like the
• 30:29
  analogy is we've got to get out from underneath it
• 30:32
  so it doesn't crush us. And also we need to be
• 30:35
  alongside of it. Right? It's still. The church is,
• 30:39
  the church is transforming, the institution is
• 30:42
  collapsing.
• 30:43
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 30:43
  Let's explore that because I'm curious. And this
• 30:45
  is one of the questions I did want to ask is
• 30:47
  because my experience, and it seems like this is
• 30:51
  what I've read and heard from many people, is that
• 30:53
  there does seem to be some level of
• 30:55
  institutionalization to take a movement to
• 30:58
  sustainable like beyond just the initial inertia
• 31:02
  and energy and personality driven nature of
• 31:05
  movement. Like, have you even thought to what that
• 31:09
  might look like?
• 31:09
  >> Cathie Caimano: Oh, yeah. Yes, I have.
• 31:14
  >> Loren: Softball question.
• 31:17
  >> Cathie Caimano: Have I thought about that? That's kind of my job.
• 31:19
  Well, and so, and I just wrote about this too.
• 31:22
  Like everybody, everywhere, every time I've ever
• 31:24
  had this conversation, they say, well, why can't
• 31:26
  we just do house church, right? Why don't we just
• 31:28
  go sit in our living rooms? And again, it's a
• 31:30
  beautiful idea, It's a beautiful thing. And I say
• 31:32
  just like what you said, that is great once, maybe
• 31:36
  twice, but the third time you do that, then you do
• 31:40
  need to organize, right? And so, and hear me say
• 31:42
  that I am not opposed to organization,
• 31:45
  administration, you know, communication, right?
• 31:48
  All of that kind of stuff. I just think. And so I
• 31:50
  think that at a certain point you do you.
• 31:52
  Someone's got to be in charge, right? You have to
• 31:54
  figure out how it's going to go. Um, you have to
• 31:57
  figure out how you're going to pay for it. And
• 31:59
  that is like I'm going to skip down to the end
• 32:01
  when you, you asked me to think about like things
• 32:03
  I would say to people in the church to think
• 32:05
  about. You have to think about money, right? We,
• 32:09
  we have to. It's hard, it's scary, we hate it. Um,
• 32:13
  we have to say this out loud. We have to be able
• 32:15
  to afford it. We have to make money in ministry or
• 32:18
  we won't have it. And it's okay, we can talk about
• 32:21
  it, right? And it's also okay to make money,
• 32:24
  right? And so, so all of those things, right? So,
• 32:27
  and so I would say, like, for me it is the
• 32:31
  business model, right? Um, like you, you may know
• 32:34
  this. I think a lot of people in my world don't
• 32:36
  know this. Scratch the surface of any huge mega
• 32:41
  church. Those aren't, those aren't Nonprofits.
• 32:43
  They are LLCs. Those huge churches are our
• 32:47
  businesses, right? And I think that yes, we,
• 32:51
  everybody gets really scared about like whether
• 32:53
  that is holy or whether it is faithful. And to
• 32:56
  which I would come back and say, think of all the
• 32:58
  businesses, the straight up secular businesses,
• 33:00
  you know, who's. That are built on principles that
• 33:04
  are about loving God and your neighbor or serving
• 33:06
  the world, you uh, know, sacrificially. So I, so I
• 33:10
  think like we get ourselves lost in the whole idea
• 33:12
  that like capitalism can be of course incredibly
• 33:15
  brutal, but it, it doesn't have to be. To me it's
• 33:19
  about agile, networked technology, you know,
• 33:24
  sustainability, right? That like we, I think we
• 33:27
  need to just take the books and I, and I literally
• 33:29
  do this right. Like um, in my 10 years as a free
• 33:32
  range priest, you know, I have like most of what
• 33:35
  like half of what I'm doing is educating myself.
• 33:38
  And so I have done all the things like I am a
• 33:41
  solopreneur small business owner and I have done
• 33:46
  all the, I've taken all the online classes, I've
• 33:49
  done all the things right. And um, and tried all
• 33:52
  the different platforms and stuff. And, and I
• 33:54
  think of myself as a creative solopreneur, right?
• 33:57
  And, and so to me that is the basis for what I do.
• 34:01
  And I contract with churches and individuals and
• 34:05
  that's part of my whole. When I talked about small
• 34:07
  church and sustainable part time ministry, I. A
• 34:11
  contract with the church that has 30 members,
• 34:13
  right? And um, guess what? That's, that's a
• 34:17
  wonderful thing for them and for me because they
• 34:20
  can afford me, first of all, they only pay me for
• 34:23
  what I do. And that is part of, I don't think of
• 34:27
  myself, I would say bivocational as my trigger
• 34:29
  word. I will not use the word bivocational when
• 34:31
  it, when it actually means you're not getting paid
• 34:33
  for your ministry. It's one thing if you're, you
• 34:35
  know, if you're called to be a doctor and a priest
• 34:37
  or whatever, but what we really mean is you're
• 34:39
  gonna not get paid to be a minister. And that is
• 34:42
  not okay with me. And so I have a ministry that is
• 34:45
  made up of, you know, several income streams from
• 34:49
  several different places. It sounds like you have
• 34:51
  something of the similar thing. And to me that's
• 34:54
  full time ministry. It just doesn't look like I
• 34:56
  get a salary from an institution. And so that's
• 34:58
  what I'm talking about, but 100% and I think that,
• 35:02
  I think denominations, um, and diocese and
• 35:06
  whatever can also run this way. I think that there
• 35:09
  are still ways that I mean, I believe in the
• 35:11
  authority of bishops, I believe in the authority
• 35:13
  of the denominational church. I just think that we
• 35:15
  could be outside of again the sort of ponderous,
• 35:19
  you know, stuff that's holding us together. What I
• 35:21
  would Say is a mid 20th century institutional
• 35:23
  model and move into a model that is much more,
• 35:27
  much more agile technology Based, blah, blah,
• 35:29
  blah. One of the things that I do on a very
• 35:31
  practical matter is that I, I teach and use
• 35:35
  Planning Center. Do you know Planning center, it's
• 35:37
  a church management software and I think it's the
• 35:39
  very best church management software for so many
• 35:41
  reasons. And I help churches use this and you
• 35:46
  know, it just, it pretty much gives me an aneurysm
• 35:48
  when I say out loud that I'm pretty sure that the
• 35:50
  Episcopal Church doesn't actually know how many
• 35:52
  members it has. Like, there is no actual database
• 35:54
  that they can like call up all the Episcopalians.
• 35:56
  And that, um, it just makes me weep. I just can't.
• 36:01
  And so, and the same m with most. And when I, and
• 36:03
  I talk to diocese and say, don't you want to know
• 36:06
  who all your members are? Wouldn't you love to
• 36:08
  have a database of all the members of your diocese
• 36:10
  that you could pull them up and look at them and,
• 36:12
  and know them. Right. Like, and again, something
• 36:15
  that a debt, a business could do in a second,
• 36:18
  wouldn't you want to have that kind of
• 36:20
  relationship with the people who are part of your
• 36:21
  church? So I mean, to me, something like that and,
• 36:24
  and yes and no. People want that and that's very
• 36:28
  scary and very hard for them.
• 36:30
  >> Loren: It is a lot. And it's interesting. Like, we
• 36:33
  shouldn't turn this into a commercial for Planning
• 36:35
  center, but Planning center does offer, as I
• 36:38
  remember, like they do price points. Right. Based
• 36:40
  on your size.
• 36:42
  >> Cathie Caimano: So it's not like, yeah, my, my 30 person church
• 36:45
  planning center, it costs them $35 a month. Um,
• 36:49
  because the database part is free no matter how
• 36:51
  big or how small you are.
• 36:52
  >> Loren: Right, right.
• 36:52
  I'm also thinking about like, I'm also thinking
• 36:56
  about how much like in what you just talked about,
• 37:00
  like, how much there is opportunity for like
• 37:04
  reimagining things in a way that's going to help
• 37:07
  the church move forward, um, without just entirely
• 37:12
  being stuck in the past. Do you want to, you want
• 37:14
  to talk more about like, you know, and you name
• 37:19
  these like, principles of like, I didn't, I don't
• 37:22
  know if like, I don't know a megachurch model well
• 37:25
  enough to know if they use like an llc. But like,
• 37:27
  it doesn't shock me to think about that because I
• 37:29
  know of other people who I know are in similar
• 37:32
  spaces to you and have like a nonprofit arm and
• 37:35
  they have an LLC arm. And certainly there's been a
• 37:38
  lot of positive movement around social
• 37:41
  entrepreneurship and social entrepreneurship,
• 37:43
  which I imagine you're familiar with, like, has
• 37:46
  multiple bottom lines. So I don't think it's a
• 37:47
  stretch to call a church, uh, uh, a social
• 37:50
  entrepreneurship in some capacity and to utilize
• 37:54
  those different models or formations to help
• 37:57
  advance their work. Do you want to talk more about
• 37:59
  how utilizing some of these different tools or
• 38:03
  organizational formations can help them advance
• 38:06
  their work going into the future?
• 38:08
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yes, I do want to talk about that. Well, first of
• 38:12
  all, it's just a lot less work. Right? It is just
• 38:15
  a lot less work. Like I'd love to talk about the
• 38:17
  church bulletin, but also like, like yes. Okay, so
• 38:21
  the, the, the jump from one to the other is really
• 38:24
  hard. Right. So which is again why I am. My
• 38:28
  advocacy now is about just start with the 20th,
• 38:32
  21st century model and then like connect yourself
• 38:36
  to the old like, you know, so I, I got really big
• 38:39
  into like I'm going to come into your church, I'm
• 38:40
  going to come into your diocese, I'm going to
• 38:42
  teach you how to use planning center and you're
• 38:44
  just going to. And you know what I mean, this is,
• 38:45
  and I mean this with all due respect, you know,
• 38:47
  and then it's like the 75 year old ladies at the
• 38:49
  desk or like not going to do this. Right? And I,
• 38:53
  and it's not their fault. Right. And so, but I
• 38:56
  also think the church doesn't realize that, bless
• 38:58
  their hearts, because they're whole, literally
• 39:00
  they're holding the church together. But also if
• 39:03
  you've got a 75 year old lady at the desk who's in
• 39:06
  charge of like typing things into the uh, to the
• 39:09
  desktop and then printing them out and carrying
• 39:11
  them over here, then, then you're not efficient in
• 39:15
  any way. Right? Like you're not. And, and to me
• 39:17
  then that goes so, so a. I think that um, the
• 39:22
  whole thing about starting a gym for your soul,
• 39:24
  you know, one of the things I'm trying to do now
• 39:25
  is sort of work with myself and with other people
• 39:28
  who are doing entrepreneurial ministry and then
• 39:32
  help them connect to churches. So if I run the
• 39:36
  thing, like I uh, work for a small church
• 39:39
  basically in a tech, in a. But I also work for a
• 39:41
  larger church where I run their planning center
• 39:44
  for them. Right. And so, and then I'm gradually
• 39:47
  teaching them how to use it, but they pay me less
• 39:50
  than they would pay somebody who was an
• 39:51
  administrator to help them, you know, sort of set
• 39:54
  this thing up kind of alongside what they do. So
• 39:56
  that kind of thing connecting on that level. The
• 39:59
  other thing is this goes down to a little bit more
• 40:02
  of like a, it's basically like what are we doing
• 40:05
  here right? Like, why are we here? Right. And I
• 40:10
  think for so many congregations it comes down to
• 40:12
  like, we're here because we've always been here
• 40:14
  and we need to always be here. And that's not a
• 40:18
  mission. M. And so I think the, I think this, this
• 40:24
  is part of the getting out of the systematic
• 40:25
  thinking into the new. Like, so when I talk about
• 40:29
  business thinking and agile thinking and that sort
• 40:31
  of thing, it's like, what's our goal? What do we
• 40:34
  mean to be doing here and how do we measure that?
• 40:37
  Like, how do we know? And so, and then people get
• 40:39
  all nervous about like, well, maybe we only have
• 40:42
  30 members, maybe we're not going to get more
• 40:43
  members. Maybe membership isn't the whole goal.
• 40:45
  But, but, but. And I also would say you still need
• 40:51
  a measurable goal.
• 40:53
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 40:54
  >> Cathie Caimano: And yeah, go ahead, let me give.
• 40:57
  >> Loren: A shout, quick shout out to Chad Brooks, UMC
• 40:59
  pastor, who I just.
• 41:01
  >> Cathie Caimano: Oh yeah, I follow him on stuff, stuff too.
• 41:03
  >> Loren: But he has a great point about like, you don't
• 41:05
  have to be a huge church to be vital and
• 41:08
  sustainable. Like you can be a huge church and not
• 41:12
  be at all vital, not be at all sustainable.
• 41:14
  Whereas a church of 30, like you said, can be
• 41:17
  vital and sustainable, right?
• 41:19
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yes, I serve one. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, but
• 41:23
  you also then have to like, be explicit about
• 41:26
  that. Like, what's our goal? Like again, it does
• 41:28
  go back to like, what are we doing, how are we
• 41:30
  doing it and how are we paying for it and how.
• 41:33
  Like again, it's small business, big business,
• 41:35
  right. Plenty of people. I have one. Right. Like
• 41:38
  our sole proprietor llc. You could can basically
• 41:41
  say we're going to be a 30 member church. Um,
• 41:44
  incidentally, that's this whole gym for your soul
• 41:46
  Traco. I'm working with my small congregation to
• 41:49
  do this. Right. And so they, you know, I, I mean
• 41:53
  they're working through me and with me. But the
• 41:55
  whole idea is people subscribe on substack, right?
• 41:57
  We have people joining the gym, um, online, but
• 42:01
  they're connected with this community of 30 people
• 42:04
  who are in person, right. And get money. It's part
• 42:08
  of their sustainability, but it's also part of the
• 42:10
  way that they're um, grow their membership and
• 42:12
  that they connect spiritually and how they share
• 42:15
  the gospel. Right. And yet they also get to stay
• 42:19
  their size, which they love. There's nothing, I
• 42:21
  mean, I would say, I mean part of this whole weird
• 42:24
  journey for me is that I've fallen in love with
• 42:26
  small churches. I in my mind think that all
• 42:28
  churches should have only 30 members. Because this
• 42:30
  particular church that I am with, there's so,
• 42:33
  there's so much intimacy there, there's so much
• 42:35
  closeness. Um, and so if they got much bigger, it
• 42:39
  would be really hard to be that involved in each
• 42:41
  other's lives and you know, to be that personally,
• 42:43
  you know, there with each other. And so they don't
• 42:46
  really want to get that much bigger, but they do
• 42:47
  want to be sustainable and they do want to share
• 42:49
  the gospel and they're absolutely. That's the
• 42:51
  exciting thing. There's lots of ways you can do
• 42:53
  that today, but you have to sort of get outside of
• 42:55
  that. We're going to have a Sunday school, we're
• 42:57
  going to have a full time priest, you know, all
• 42:58
  that kind of stuff. Because you're not going to.
• 42:59
  Those things are not going to happen.
• 43:01
  >> Loren: I want to go back to what you said there about the
• 43:04
  alternative ways of being connected to the
• 43:07
  institution or to the. I can't remember the words
• 43:10
  you use there. Like the old system, um, like I'm
• 43:14
  thinking of, and I've again, I struggle to get
• 43:16
  traction on this because I think it's utilized in
• 43:20
  mainline circles is like fiscal sponsorship. Like,
• 43:23
  I think fiscal sponsorship should be a bigger
• 43:25
  deal. Uh, yeah, because if anything like it gives
• 43:28
  like a startup opportunity to like get some
• 43:32
  traction and immediately get tax deductible
• 43:34
  donations without having to wait through all the
• 43:37
  501C3 stuff.
• 43:39
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yeah.
• 43:40
  >> Loren: Talk more about how you could see like that
• 43:43
  because I think it's. There's going to be, like
• 43:45
  you said, there's going to be some need to be
• 43:47
  attached to the old institutions, but they're also
• 43:51
  going to want to be networked to other groups.
• 43:53
  >> Cathie Caimano: So talk. Exactly.
• 43:54
  >> Loren: That connect.
• 43:55
  >> Cathie Caimano: Right.
• 43:56
  Well, so here's one of the things I'm uh, going to
• 43:58
  talk about my workshop tomorrow night is that when
• 44:02
  I look out there and all of this and where I see a
• 44:04
  lot of the stress, right, the uh, real stress on
• 44:07
  clergy and congregations is that we have this
• 44:09
  system, the standard system that's not working.
• 44:13
  And yet we're putting all our energy and all the
• 44:19
  resources that we currently have to double down
• 44:21
  and triple down on doing the same things over and
• 44:24
  over again that are not working. And so like we
• 44:27
  are squandering, I mean squandering our money and
• 44:31
  our resources and our people and our energy. And
• 44:34
  so one of the good things about this I think is
• 44:38
  that my contention is, and I uh, believe this very
• 44:42
  strongly, the systems that are already working,
• 44:45
  the congregations that are already existing, the
• 44:46
  doing the things that they do for they've been
• 44:48
  doing for the last 60 years. They don't need that
• 44:51
  much more energy and time to continue to work like
• 44:54
  they're working right now. Now. Right. So
• 44:56
  basically it's um, I don't know if you are
• 44:58
  familiar with Rabbi Edmund Friedman Family Systems
• 45:01
  Theory. So Friedman's big thing, which I is one of
• 45:04
  my biggest sort of north stars defect in place.
• 45:08
  And so what that means is stop doing the stuff
• 45:11
  that you don't need to do. Right. Just do the
• 45:14
  stuff that you need to do and stop doing
• 45:16
  everything else and trying extra hard. Right. So
• 45:20
  and this was the long way of saying that I've done
• 45:22
  this and I can see this happening. So for example,
• 45:25
  in a very concrete way m someone you're a full
• 45:29
  time pastor of a like medium sized congregation.
• 45:32
  And again it's not getting any bigger, the
• 45:35
  budget's not getting any, any better or whatever.
• 45:37
  So the congregation intentionally supports,
• 45:43
  literally supports that clergy person spending
• 45:47
  half their time doing their entrepreneurial
• 45:50
  ministry. M. Right. Mhm. And with the idea A that
• 45:54
  they are building the future of the church. Right.
• 45:56
  And, and B, they're not going to be there forever.
• 45:59
  But also they don't even have to be part of it. I
• 46:00
  mean they can be right. You know, but they don't
• 46:03
  have to be. But it's not like, oh, it's my pastor,
• 46:05
  you've got to be, we're paying you full time, you
• 46:07
  got to be here full time. You have to be at more
• 46:08
  meetings. The church could merely say going to
• 46:13
  more meetings is not actually making this better.
• 46:15
  Right. Um, we are not going to get any more
• 46:17
  members. The pastor's still gonna be here on
• 46:19
  Sunday. Right. They're still gonna preach, they're
• 46:21
  still gonna do pastoral care and we're gonna work
• 46:23
  this out what the pastor's gonna do. We're still
• 46:25
  gonna pay them the same amount of money if we can
• 46:26
  afford it. But we're gonna pay them what we can
• 46:28
  afford it. Maybe it'll be a little bit less but.
• 46:30
  And then we are gonna jump up and down for joy
• 46:34
  that that pastor is then building a sub stack or
• 46:37
  building a spiritual practices, ah, gym or you
• 46:41
  know, whatever else they're doing or you know,
• 46:43
  spending their time with a house church or you
• 46:47
  know, and that's also part of the whole agile
• 46:50
  network, getting out of our silos. You know, it's
• 46:52
  because I also think that there's this whole like
• 46:54
  it's my church, you know, this whole scarcity.
• 46:56
  Like, you know, we're not paying for someone to do
• 46:58
  that. You know, it's like, nope, we're all in the
• 47:00
  same business. Right. We are all in the good news
• 47:02
  business. So that's. So that's what I mean by
• 47:05
  that. Um, you know, I work with. Oh, go ahead, go
• 47:09
  ahead.
• 47:09
  >> Loren: I've been at two things that I think speak to your
• 47:11
  point and I haven't. This has been a while, but
• 47:14
  Matt Sertol, I think was. His name, was a PC USA
• 47:16
  pastor who I talked to a couple of years ago kind
• 47:19
  of about your point about doing these passion
• 47:21
  projects, which I think is great because it gives
• 47:24
  the pastor something that refreshes them and also
• 47:26
  is kind of like you said, entrepreneurial or
• 47:29
  leading edge, which I think is not at all a thing
• 47:32
  that happens in mainline churches often.
• 47:36
  >> Cathie Caimano: Not at all.
• 47:37
  >> Loren: R and D. I'm thinking also of another family
• 47:40
  systems guy I follow, Steve Cuss, who. His big
• 47:43
  thing is when we're in anxiety, we just try
• 47:46
  harder. And like that's like what, what you've
• 47:49
  been saying again and again throughout this
• 47:50
  conversation is like, mainline is just like, let's
• 47:52
  just try harder.
• 47:55
  >> Cathie Caimano: Right? Yeah. Just not working. Just not working.
• 47:58
  And also bless them. But it's like I also think
• 48:01
  that what we end up doing, at least in the
• 48:04
  mainline church is we try new expressions of
• 48:08
  church, as we say, within the same container.
• 48:12
  Right. So it's all good to have a. To have a
• 48:14
  garden and it's all great to have pub church and
• 48:17
  it's great to do you. And I'm not making fun. I
• 48:19
  think this is wonderful that people are trying new
• 48:22
  music or new forms of worship or whatever. That's
• 48:24
  great. If it's in the same container where you
• 48:27
  still have the full time pastor and all the
• 48:29
  committees and this has to be approved and this is
• 48:31
  the budget. Nothing has changed that. I think it's
• 48:34
  really hard because we don't really see the
• 48:37
  container, you know, that it's really hard to get
• 48:40
  people to get. That's actually not getting us
• 48:43
  anywhere if it's still in the same container.
• 48:46
  Right. And so like we, um. I talked to somebody
• 48:49
  last summer who was. She's really big on TikTok. I
• 48:51
  was on TikTok for a while, but once I found
• 48:53
  Substack, I just like fell in love with Substack
• 48:55
  and I. I just haven't been on TikTok because it's
• 48:57
  just not as much fun. Um, um, uh. So. But she had
• 49:01
  like, she was a pastor and she had like whatever,
• 49:04
  thousands and thousands and thousands of
• 49:06
  followers. She's great. And so she got hired by
• 49:10
  the Zabaya Diocese to be their sort of like social
• 49:14
  media pastor, which again, I think is awesome.
• 49:17
  >> Loren: Bethany Peerbold.
• 49:18
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yes, I am, you know. Oh, she's awesome.
• 49:22
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 49:23
  >> Cathie Caimano: Well, I called her up because I was like, okay,
• 49:26
  like, you don't care, but I'm gonna talk to you
• 49:27
  about this. I just wanna know, like. And I said,
• 49:30
  so, like, how are you keeping track of your
• 49:33
  members? And she's just like, basically like,
• 49:36
  we're not. Right. And so I'm like, how is this
• 49:39
  gonna be sustainable? How are you building this
• 49:41
  into something where you can have a community and
• 49:45
  you can continue to sustain it and you can have
• 49:48
  some level of organization? And she's just like,
• 49:50
  not on the radar, you know. And, you know, this is
• 49:54
  to me the whole like, fabulous idea. Wonderful
• 49:58
  person, great ministry still in the same box,
• 50:02
  right? Like, like, it's just like, what's going to
• 50:04
  happen with that? Right? That's house church all
• 50:06
  over again, right? At a certain point, either
• 50:10
  there has to be a new way to, to, to frame it and
• 50:14
  sustain it and administrate it and all that kind
• 50:16
  of st. Or it's just gonna fall by the wayside. If,
• 50:20
  uh, that diocese decides that they're out of
• 50:23
  money, then that ministry's over. Right? And also
• 50:27
  I would say from the perspective of discipleship
• 50:29
  and growing the church in new ways, unless you're
• 50:32
  connecting with people and knowing who they are
• 50:34
  and having a way to grow in relationship with them
• 50:38
  and help them grow in relationship with each
• 50:40
  other, then again, what is your goal? What are you
• 50:43
  trying to do? You. Right. Um, and like, how are
• 50:46
  you bringing people into faith? And how do you
• 50:48
  know, right? And going back to even repetitive
• 50:50
  prayer and all that kind of stuff. Are we walking
• 50:52
  with people? Are they growing in their faith? Are
• 50:55
  they getting closer to God? How are we getting
• 50:57
  that feedback? How are we improving and making
• 50:59
  this a better thing, right. To go down that sort
• 51:02
  of thing. Anyway, so that is my, that's like my
• 51:04
  example of that. I think that's a fabulous thing.
• 51:06
  And it's in the same container still, right? And
• 51:08
  if we don't start talking about the system and the
• 51:10
  new containers, then. And that's a perfect example
• 51:12
  of something that could be in it. Like that could
• 51:15
  be a startup, that could be something that people
• 51:17
  paid money to be part of a community for, that
• 51:19
  could be a subscription community, um, that could,
• 51:22
  you know, whatever that could grow into, you know,
• 51:25
  resources and that sort of thing. And uh, a new
• 51:29
  way to do spiritual, spiritual direction. I don't
• 51:31
  know. It's not my thing.
• 51:32
  >> Loren: Like, I yeah, yeah, I hear what you're saying.
• 51:35
  Because I think, I think this is again, something
• 51:37
  that happens again and again in mainline
• 51:38
  traditions because there's so much like, old
• 51:40
  money, right. So much institutional money that.
• 51:43
  But, uh, we're kind of just like spending it down.
• 51:45
  Right, Right. If I'm hearing you right, you're
• 51:48
  like, you're a big thing and we should probably
• 51:50
  move on after this.
• 51:51
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yeah, sorry. Yeah, sorry if I'm wrong here.
• 51:56
  >> Loren: Your big thing is like, how is it going to
• 51:58
  sustain?
• 51:59
  >> Cathie Caimano: Right, right, right. And I mean, I mean, for me, I
• 52:04
  come in from the Episcopal Church where, you know,
• 52:05
  again, we've got so much money. We have more money
• 52:08
  than God. We do. And I also will say that out of
• 52:11
  our fear, and this goes back to fear, a lot of us
• 52:13
  are just burying it in the dirt. Right? So, like,
• 52:16
  um, I've applied for a million grants and this is
• 52:18
  like, this is going to sound like whatever, like
• 52:20
  it's. This is not personal though. But I do, like,
• 52:23
  first of all, I can't get a grant because I'm a
• 52:25
  business. Right? Like, you cannot get a grant
• 52:27
  unless you're. If you're a business. And that just
• 52:30
  hurts me.
• 52:31
  >> Loren: Like you talked about. I got to rant on this for a
• 52:34
  moment. So forgive me.
• 52:35
  >> Cathie Caimano: Go rant and be with me.
• 52:36
  >> Loren: Rant the same thing. Like, I, when I was doing my.
• 52:41
  My work is under a, uh, llc. Because it's like, it
• 52:44
  was just so much easier and simpler to do an LLC
• 52:46
  than a nonprofit 5:1-C3 board and all that. And it
• 52:50
  just makes it so much simpler and more nimble to
• 52:53
  do an llc. Yes, you definitely have less
• 52:56
  accountability, but this idea that you can't be
• 52:58
  accountable or, uh, productive or, or right, you
• 53:04
  know.
• 53:04
  >> Cathie Caimano: Right, right. Or you're not really the church.
• 53:07
  >> Loren: Right?
• 53:07
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yes, right.
• 53:09
  >> Loren: So rant over. Continue. I'm sorry.
• 53:11
  >> Cathie Caimano: No, no, no, no, no. So that's so, so that's part
• 53:14
  of the whole thing. So. And even then, you know,
• 53:17
  it's just like, um, I've been through that process
• 53:20
  enough to see that, like what they end up saying
• 53:24
  is all the different grant boards say, oh, we've
• 53:26
  never seen this done before. And I'm just like,
• 53:29
  like, right, right. That's what innovation is.
• 53:32
  Right? Like, and so like that sense of like the
• 53:35
  risk averse, you know, everybody knows that
• 53:38
  startups or new things are going to fail, like 95%
• 53:43
  of the time. They just are. And that you have to
• 53:46
  keep trying. And so like every other area of the,
• 53:49
  of everything we do has a great, you Know, they
• 53:52
  invest money in things that are going to fail.
• 53:55
  Right? And so, because you learn and you keep
• 53:58
  going. But then I, I think, uh, again, I think it
• 54:01
  also goes back to what are we trying to learn,
• 54:04
  right?
• 54:04
  Like, I think we haven't actually allowed
• 54:07
  ourselves to articulate where are we going, what
• 54:10
  are we trying to do? If we were trying to build a
• 54:12
  new AI system, we would know how we were doing. So
• 54:16
  what are we doing if we're building a new type of
• 54:19
  church again? What does, what do we expect it to
• 54:22
  look like? How do we know it will work work, and
• 54:25
  how will we measure that? And then how will we pay
• 54:27
  for it? And then how will we try again when it
• 54:29
  doesn't work and that sort of thing and keep
• 54:30
  adjusting? And I, I think the institutional church
• 54:34
  should like, wildly invest in these sorts of
• 54:38
  things. And um. But so far most of the stuff that
• 54:40
  I've seen that it calls itself innovative ministry
• 54:42
  is again, still within the container. And, um, you
• 54:48
  know, I know we have to move on, but like, I used
• 54:50
  to work with, uh, Michael Hun, who's currently the
• 54:52
  Bishop of Rio Grande, so in, um, New Mexic in West
• 54:56
  Texas. But, um, he used to always use the, the
• 54:59
  Toyota, the Prius experiment, you know, back when
• 55:02
  they were trying to develop electric car. So what
• 55:04
  he said, what I understand is that Toyota took
• 55:08
  some people and said, go develop an electric car
• 55:11
  and don't come back. Like, don't tell us how it's
• 55:13
  going because we will tell you it's wrong. Like,
• 55:16
  we, because we're a car company and we know how
• 55:19
  this goes, if you come back and say, this is what
• 55:22
  we're thinking about, we're going to say that's
• 55:23
  never going to work. And so they basically let
• 55:26
  them go for like, however many years and said, we
• 55:29
  don't even want a progress report because we want
• 55:31
  you to figure it out. And when they came back,
• 55:33
  they're like, that's never going to work. Right.
• 55:35
  But they did it anyway. And so the, Even if just
• 55:39
  like this much of the church, even just a tiny
• 55:41
  sliver of basically people who have money and
• 55:44
  power were able to say, okay, we really are going
• 55:47
  to let go of this in the service of things that
• 55:50
  are truly outside of our realm of power and
• 55:53
  authority. Um, you know, and again, I had. I need
• 55:56
  to say it. I say it all the time. I shouldn't say
• 55:58
  it, but I will. I'm not talking about
• 56:00
  inappropriate behavior. I'm not talking about
• 56:02
  outside the realm of like, um, either the
• 56:04
  Christian faith or the Christian you know,
• 56:06
  behavior or anything like that. I absolutely
• 56:09
  believe in accountability 100% about, you know,
• 56:13
  to, to everybody about how we live our lives and
• 56:15
  how we conduct our ministry. But again, the
• 56:19
  containers, the, the ways that we're doing it, I,
• 56:22
  um, think should. We should be given enormous
• 56:25
  leeway and support. Most of the people that I
• 56:28
  meet, like you, like the other people that I work
• 56:30
  with are, we are scraping by. Right. Um, it's part
• 56:34
  of my big. One of my goals is to make what I would
• 56:37
  call a grown up salary so that I can tell other
• 56:40
  people it's possible I'm barely there. Well,
• 56:42
  because I have to pay on my pension. Right. I
• 56:43
  still have to pay 18% of everything I bring in.
• 56:45
  Between taxes and pension, um, and my business
• 56:48
  expenses. That's 50% of what I bring in. So like
• 56:52
  gross. I make a grown up salary net. I'm married
• 56:57
  to. I call my husband Jeff, my patron saint. But
• 57:04
  on. Everybody can do that.
• 57:05
  >> Loren: Yeah. You know, it's funny, I was thinking of, I
• 57:07
  think it's skunk works, right. I can't remember
• 57:09
  who, who the company was. Like it was Lockheed or
• 57:12
  some kind of big arms or tech company who did
• 57:15
  something similar where they said, go, go out into
• 57:18
  the parking lot or something and, and don't come
• 57:20
  back. Something similar to that. So, so there's
• 57:24
  something to be said for that kind of, uh, you
• 57:26
  know, let's send people out in their way and see
• 57:28
  what they come up with. And I don't think that's
• 57:30
  entirely unbiblical either, you know, Jesus two by
• 57:34
  two, uh, and see. Go to work.
• 57:37
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yeah, exactly.
• 57:39
  >> Loren: Let's take a break here and come.
• 57:41
  >> Cathie Caimano: Back with some closing questions. Okay. All right.
• 57:48
  >> Loren: We'Re back with Father Cathie Kaimano. Did I get
• 57:51
  that right? Good.
• 57:52
  >> Cathie Caimano: You did get it right.
• 57:53
  >> Loren: Right. Uh, okay, so closing questions.
• 57:56
  You're welcome to take these as seriously or not
• 57:58
  as you'd like to, but if you're Pope for a day,
• 58:02
  what might you want to do with that day?
• 58:06
  >> Cathie Caimano: I laughed when you said this in advance, and I
• 58:08
  laughed at that. And, um, I first had a diversion
• 58:11
  because this is who I am that, you know, we just
• 58:12
  elected and they just elected a new Pope. And my
• 58:15
  husband and I both used to be Catholic. And, and
• 58:17
  you may not know this, but the only actual
• 58:19
  qualification for being Pope is that you have to
• 58:21
  be a baptized Roman, uh, Catholic male. And so I
• 58:25
  told my husband, I'm like, you need to run for
• 58:27
  this. Like, you'll put your name in, right?
• 58:29
  Because then I could be like the Pope's wife. He
• 58:31
  could be the first. Yeah. She did not. But
• 58:34
  honestly, I would take the day off, right.
• 58:35
  Because, like, you talk about, like, the
• 58:37
  institutional system and like, I'm trying really
• 58:42
  hard to get out of that. So, like. Nope. I would
• 58:45
  wander around this, that beautiful, um, you know,
• 58:47
  Vatican and look at all the art and, uh, drink
• 58:49
  some wine, but no way. I want.
• 58:51
  >> Loren: Good answer. It's a good answer. Okay. A
• 58:55
  theologian or historical Christian figure you'd
• 58:58
  want to meet or bring back to life.
• 59:00
  >> Cathie Caimano: Oh, gosh. Well, Friedman would be one of them.
• 59:02
  He's not Christian. But, um, uh, C.S. lewis came
• 59:06
  immediately to my mind. But really, truly. This is
• 59:10
  going to sound, I don't know, hokey or whatever,
• 59:11
  but Paul, like the Apostle Paul, like, because I
• 59:14
  kind of feel like that's also what he was doing.
• 59:16
  Yeah, he's a historical figure, but he, like, he,
• 59:19
  uh, he was developing the earliest church. Right.
• 59:21
  I want to know how he did it. Right. That all
• 59:24
  those letters, that's what he was doing. Right.
• 59:25
  Different expressions of the church were happening
• 59:27
  and he was tearing his hair out half the time. But
• 59:30
  that's what he was trying to do, like, stay with
• 59:32
  the faith, keep, keep, keep together, you know,
• 59:35
  pay for stuff, bring me my cloak. But also, like,
• 59:39
  just trying to keep everybody's, you know, hopes
• 59:41
  up and trying to network everybody together. And
• 59:44
  in so many ways, I think of myself, myself as. I
• 59:47
  mean, not that that sounds hubris, but you know
• 59:49
  what I mean. Like, you know that like walking as.
• 59:51
  >> Loren: Like a tent maker. Uh, like Paul.
• 59:53
  >> Cathie Caimano: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 59:54
  >> Loren: Back for it. Because I know what you mean.
• 59:56
  >> Cathie Caimano: Thank you. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't trying to sound
• 59:58
  like grandiose.
• 1:00:00
  >> Loren: I feel like. I feel like you are kind of just
• 1:00:02
  alternative there, just being a mainliner and
• 1:00:05
  referencing Paul. But that's a. That's a whole
• 1:00:07
  nother conversation.
• 1:00:08
  >> Cathie Caimano: I'm. I'm a closet evangelical. Don't tell anybody.
• 1:00:13
  Oh.
• 1:00:14
  >> Loren: What do you think history will remember from our
• 1:00:16
  current time and place?
• 1:00:19
  >> Cathie Caimano: I thought about this a little bit too. I think
• 1:00:21
  that, you know, we're in the 20s, right? So like,
• 1:00:24
  it's like the new millennia. And like, just like
• 1:00:26
  any other new millennia, it's like our new
• 1:00:29
  century. Um, for whatever reason, we turn over
• 1:00:33
  into that and it's all like, woo, we're in a new
• 1:00:36
  century. We're in a new millennia. And then I feel
• 1:00:38
  like it doesn't hit. Get all the stuff that's
• 1:00:40
  shifting until about the 20s, right? The 20s and
• 1:00:43
  30s. And you look back in history, you can see
• 1:00:46
  that even in actually in Christianity. Right. Um,
• 1:00:49
  and so I think that that's what's gonna. It's what
• 1:00:51
  it's gonna look like. It's gonna. Whatever this
• 1:00:53
  is. It's the sort of like, rumbling of whatever
• 1:00:57
  the big thing is gonna come that's gonna, um, you
• 1:01:00
  know, sort of be the thing of our age. I don't
• 1:01:03
  think we're there yet. Right. I think we're just
• 1:01:04
  seeing the, The. The tectonic plates shifting,
• 1:01:08
  which to me is super exciting. Exciting.
• 1:01:10
  >> Loren: Well, that's a good attitude to have, I suppose.
• 1:01:14
  You know, frustration or terror or anger then, for
• 1:01:19
  the future of Christianity.
• 1:01:21
  >> Cathie Caimano: Wow. Well, you know, I just think, like, I hope
• 1:01:24
  what God hopes for the future of Christianity.
• 1:01:27
  Right. Like, which, I don't know what that is,
• 1:01:28
  but, you know, in our, in our tradition, we say
• 1:01:31
  our, Our acclamation of faith is, you know, Christ
• 1:01:34
  has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
• 1:01:36
  Right. And so know we're living in that as far. I
• 1:01:40
  tell my congregation that all the time. Right. We
• 1:01:41
  are living in that. In that moment right between
• 1:01:45
  Christ has died, Christ has risen, and Christ will
• 1:01:48
  come again. And so I hope that we enjoy that, you
• 1:01:54
  know, that, like, we live into that with hope and,
• 1:01:56
  uh, courage.
• 1:01:59
  >> Loren: Yeah.
• 1:01:59
  Well, this has been such a great conversation.
• 1:02:02
  Like, thank you. I'm happy to see Just, like, take
• 1:02:05
  a break and go outside and just process all we've
• 1:02:07
  talked about.
• 1:02:09
  >> Cathie Caimano: Well, I hope we get to talk some more. Like, I
• 1:02:11
  like you and I have a lot in common. So, um, yes,
• 1:02:15
  after we're done, after doing this for your
• 1:02:16
  podcast, which thank you very much. And I'm seeing
• 1:02:19
  all the people, I look through the people that you
• 1:02:20
  have interviewed. And, um, yeah, I'm very honored
• 1:02:23
  to be included amongst their number because that's
• 1:02:26
  some pretty. Some really, really wonderfully
• 1:02:29
  admirable people in ministry. And I'm excited to
• 1:02:31
  have about pretty much everybody you've had on and
• 1:02:34
  what they talk about.
• 1:02:35
  >> Loren: Well, thank you. Share how folks can connect with
• 1:02:38
  you, get connected with. See if I can get this
• 1:02:40
  right. Treo.
• 1:02:43
  >> Cathie Caimano: Uh, well, freerangepreach.org, i have actually.
• 1:02:45
  I'm so all into substack that I have actually
• 1:02:48
  forwarded, uh, my domain. So my website is my
• 1:02:51
  substack. And I'm just trying to put in more and
• 1:02:53
  more stuff there. So if you go to
• 1:02:54
  freerangepriest.org it'll take you to my substack.
• 1:02:57
  It connects to Treo, connects to my writing,
• 1:03:00
  connects to how you can work with me. You can find
• 1:03:01
  me there at Saddy.
• 1:03:03
  >> Loren: Okay. Awesome. Well, this has been a great
• 1:03:05
  conversation. Again, really appreciate your time.
• 1:03:08
  We always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
• 1:03:10
  God's peace be with you and.
• 1:03:12
  >> Cathie Caimano: Uh-huh, also with you.
• 1:03:21
  >> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
• 1:03:23
  Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
• 1:03:26
  by Resonate Media. We love love to hear from our
• 1:03:28
  listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
• 1:03:31
  future episodes. Visit our
• 1:03:33
  website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
• 1:03:37
  with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
• 1:03:40
  touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do
• 1:03:43
  us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a
• 1:03:45
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• 1:03:48
  people. Thanks and go in PE.