Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 'Kayak killer' demands victim's life insurance payout; police finally identify dead child found in Cleveland backyard

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'Kayak killer' demands victim's life insurance payout; police finally identify dead child found in Cleveland backyard · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Today Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious ex M
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Triumph Channel one thirty two. Anything Water anybody? Oh, how
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: we love to be in love? Isn't it awesome? I
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: mean it's euphoric, but then you end up dead at
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: the bottom of the Hudson River. Okay, how did that happen?
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  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: being with us. I'm talking about none other than Angelica Griswold.
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  Speaker 1: She was sent to marry her true love, Vincent Via
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  Speaker 1: for a They had been living together. Everything looked great.
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  Speaker 1: They had all the same interest They apparently had a
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: very very exciting Um let me just say sex life.
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  Speaker 1: There's really no a good way to put that. And
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  Speaker 1: then everything goes sideways. What are the interests that they shared?
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Was kayaking? But then this take a listen to this
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: nine on one call. Tell me exactly what happened? We
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: are kayaking, my Nancy? What's all? He's in the war
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: right now? I did you have a life that son? Yeah? Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: something nobody. You can't hear that. I don't see any more,
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  Speaker 1: all right, Angelica? Angelica? Can you hear me? Angelique? Are
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  Speaker 1: you still with me? Okay? Angelica? Can you hear me? Angelica? Hey?
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  Speaker 1: Can you hear me? Hi? Did you hear me? Now?
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  Speaker 1: Right here? Okay? I didn't hear you. I don't see anymore. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: did he have oh all right, we've got help on
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  Speaker 1: the way. Okay. Did he have a light jacket on
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  Speaker 1: when he flipped over? He had a little like a
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  Speaker 1: voting thing. He had said. It wasn't a beast that
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: he had something to hold it. He was something that's
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  Speaker 1: helped him float. But I don't see him. Oh my god,
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  Speaker 1: can you make your way over towards the cornwall Yall
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  Speaker 1: club where you see all the lights. Yes, yes, start
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  Speaker 1: paddling over towards that way. Okay, I'm not worried about myself.
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  Speaker 1: The board him, now, I understand, I understand. Okay, I'm
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: gonna plot you down a little bit and that or
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  Speaker 1: like pluting him, vote me down. Just keep going. I
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: see the blow you say, the boat now, but will
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: you gonna put the phone down? Just keep it over,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: don't hang up on me, okay, okay, okay. It was
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: a Sunday evening, and even though it was warm outside
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  Speaker 1: of course for upstate New York, still the water was
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  Speaker 1: cold and dark and the choppy Hudson River. Joining me
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  Speaker 1: right now, David Hopkins Crime Stories investigative reporter David Hopkins,
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  Speaker 1: tell me what happened the evening, early evening, still daylight
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  Speaker 1: hours on that Sunday afternoon when Vincent va for A
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: goes to the bottom of the Hudson River. Well, actually
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: were they were heading back to the mainland from from
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  Speaker 1: Bannerman Island and the wind had started to pick up,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: as I understand, was going on seven o'clock or so,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: and the way it was laid out was the wind
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: was picking up. They were gusting up to sixteen miles,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: the waves were at three to five feet. They were
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: fighting again strong contu the currents there and apparently water
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: began to go into the cockpit area of Vince's kayak
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  Speaker 1: and before two long with he was again like you said,
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  Speaker 1: it was the currents were allowing him to further and
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  Speaker 1: further away and he capsized. And with the temperatures at
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit that is borderline frigid, and uh, it doesn't
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: take long for your body to start to succumb. So
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: that's where the nine one one call picks up. Well,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, to Karen Smith joining me,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: renowned forensics expert, Karen, you and I have performed many
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: many experiments together, scientific experiments, but how quickly does your
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: body reach the ambiance temperature of the water the water
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: was much colder than the the air. You know what,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Your body is going to succumb very quickly. You know,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: you you don't radiate body heat and water. It's not
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: an insulating instrument. It's going to disperse your body heat
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: very very quickly. And degree water. You have only a
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: few minutes to get out of that water before you
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: go into hypothermia and you succumb to it. You lose
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: your breath and you're going to drown. Well, I'm I'm
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: projecting because I've dived many, many times, hundreds of times
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: literally before the twins were born. Then I hung up
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: my wet suit because I thought it might be too dangerous,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: and we would go diving in cool water, but I
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: would always wear, you know, long sleeve, long pants, long
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: legs wet suit. So I'm not sure what the Afora
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: was wearing, but I know this. You can't stay in
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  Speaker 1: water that cold for long. Now. According to someone in
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  Speaker 1: the note, they say, and I'm referring to Jeff Schatt,
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  Speaker 1: the commodore at the Cornwall Yacht Club in the Hudson
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  Speaker 1: Valley that's off the Hudson River. It was about seven
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  Speaker 1: thirty by the time he gets a phone call that
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  Speaker 1: there was a situation capsizing of a kayak. He says
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  Speaker 1: the water was quote choppy, three to four foot swells.
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  Speaker 1: I know it's a river, but if you're familiar at
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  Speaker 1: all with the Hudson River at that particular spot at
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  Speaker 1: Bannerman Island, and there's an old castle the Bannerman Islands
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  Speaker 1: just nothing more than enough dirt, enough land out in
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  Speaker 1: the middle of the Hudson to build kind of an
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  Speaker 1: old old castle on um and then there's not a
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  Speaker 1: lot of land around it. It's just a tourist destination
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  Speaker 1: to boat up there or go out there, and you'll
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  Speaker 1: see people looking around that the ruins of that old structure.
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  Speaker 1: But it's very choppy and cold out there. I've been
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  Speaker 1: out there many many times. Immediately help was called. Now
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  Speaker 1: by then, isn't it true? To David Hopkins Crime Stories
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  Speaker 1: investigative reporter, she Angelica Graswold was also in the water.
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  Speaker 1: Not only was Vincent via fo A who was in
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  Speaker 1: a separate kayak he had been swa followed up by
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  Speaker 1: the river, but she was now in the water too.
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  Speaker 1: She had had her own accident. Is that right, David Hopkins? Well, yes,
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  Speaker 1: she did, as a matter of fact, that apparently is it.
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  Speaker 1: As its story unfolded, she was trying to get closer
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  Speaker 1: and closer to the capsized boat with Vince, and then
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  Speaker 1: she too was was overcome and was in the water herself.
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  Speaker 1: Before you go any further, who is Angelica Graswold also
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Angelica Lipska. She's from a Latvia when it was still
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  Speaker 1: part of the Soviet Union. Now, as soon as the
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: iron curtain was lifted, she was looking for opportunity. She
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: got a nanny job in the US and by the
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  Speaker 1: time she meets Vincent via for a she had been
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: married and divorced twice, but so had he. Now, according
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: two people that know them in relatives, it was quote
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  Speaker 1: love at first sight. Vincent viafore was eleven years older
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: than her, with a great job a project manager with
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: the New York State. What happened next? Apparently they were
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: very happy together. Karen Stark, renowned psychologists joining me out
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: of New York. They had the perfect relationship, Kring. What
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  Speaker 1: was it like for her to see her groom to
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: be disappear under the choppy waters of the Hudson River, Well,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: you would think, Nancy, Dad, it was devastating and she
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  Speaker 1: does say that it was a tragic accident. Well, this
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  Speaker 1: guy was known for barbecuing, ribs, dance moves and being
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  Speaker 1: a party guy when he wasn't working hard. Never known
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: to cheat, gamble, booze it up, nothing like that. Apparently
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  Speaker 1: the two very very happy until suddenly things went sideways.
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  Speaker 1: Back to David Hopkins Crime Stories investigative reporter, she was
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  Speaker 1: brought in for questioning, what if anything did we learn? Well,
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  Speaker 1: she actually began to talk a little bit about about
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  Speaker 1: the kayak itself, about leaving the plug off of the kayak.
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  Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute, what did
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  Speaker 1: you say about the plug coming out of the kayak? Well, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: there was a plug. It's called the drain plug, and uh,
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  Speaker 1: they would be talking about that. Apparently she had removed
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  Speaker 1: the drain plug from the kayak before they actually left
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  Speaker 1: in England to begin the Train's right, David Hopkins is right.
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  Speaker 1: Angelica Graswoll admits she's sabotaged Vincent's kayak before he drowned.
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  Speaker 1: New York State Police investigators say this woman admits she
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  Speaker 1: removed the plug on the kayak and manipulated his kayak paddle.
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  Speaker 1: They even say in addition to removing the drain plug,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: she was pushing a floating paddle away from him after
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  Speaker 1: his kayak capsize. Imagine that you're out in the water,
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  Speaker 1: You've got three and four foot waves of black water,
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  Speaker 1: choppy water coming over you, you don't have on a
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  Speaker 1: life jacket, You're trying to stay up, and then you
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  Speaker 1: actually see your fiancee pushing a paddle away from you.
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  Speaker 1: What hey, Look, don't take my word for it. Listen
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  Speaker 1: to the audio tapes of her interrogation that we have obtained.
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  Speaker 1: Listen he did? He have it straight out to Karen Smith,
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  Speaker 1: forensics expert. Way In Karen Well, I did a little
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  Speaker 1: bit of research. I kayaked quite a bit in the
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  Speaker 1: rivers of Tennessee in Florida, and kayaking is difficult to
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  Speaker 1: stay balanced on its own. The plug that was removed
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: is called a scupper plug. And the reason that it's there,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: and there are several different versions of this, but the
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  Speaker 1: reason that it's there is to keep water out, especially
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  Speaker 1: in what choppy conditions, because you're naturally going to get
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: a little bit of water in a kayak. It's designed
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  Speaker 1: for a little bit, but when you cross that threshold
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  Speaker 1: into too much water, you're going to have an imbalance,
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  Speaker 1: not only in three to five foot ways. I can't
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  Speaker 1: imagine kayaking and conditions like that, but the water is
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  Speaker 1: going to be slashing around the kayak. You're going to capsize.
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  Speaker 1: So that plug is there for a purpose, and if
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  Speaker 1: it was purposefully removed tells me she knew what she
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  Speaker 1: was doing. In addition to pushing his paddle away, that's
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  Speaker 1: enough for me. Well, not only that, hold on to
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: your seat, Karen Smith, because the paddles of a kayak
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  Speaker 1: are held on by something called a sea clip. She
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  Speaker 1: had actually disconnected them. Listen before Okay, and trip did
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: you pick that rand? I didn't hae the league. Okay,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: it's not just that. The singing, the chanting that goes
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: on during their interrogation tape, it reminds me a lot
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: of m Jodi Arius, who started a rendition of Oh
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Holy Night, which you know I must have listened to
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: five hundred times. But this woman does the bizarre behavior
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: during the investigation tapes that she's being interrogated was right there,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: you know, you know what, Listen for yourself. Let's hear
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: us the more of her interrogation tape. What are your
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: feelings and emotion, knowing that it is about the how
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: when you're going k a hot and I did lead
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: what's the demons? I by that thing yp He needed
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: to be gone when the hem a side went out
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: to the lady being so. Even after she admits two
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: pulling the plug, to removing the paddles, to pushing them
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  Speaker 1: away from Vincent as he's drowning, she comes up with
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: an excuse as to why he needed to be dead. Listen,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: you watch him in the water with a part of
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: you was saying, my worries are going now and I'm
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: freeing and we're all good boy. Before that, he was
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: gonna be gone him. When Angelica Griswald spoke to police,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: she insisted, quote, I loved him. I'm not a murderer,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: but that wasn't the end. She also says, I didn't
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: kill him. I loved him, I'm not a killer. I'm
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: a good person. Take a listen to what she says
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: to a BC's I just want to ask you so
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: you have a chance to answer this question. Did you
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: kill Vince that day? I didn't kill Did you do
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: anything that you knew might lead to him being hurt?
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: For him dying in the River. No, I loved him,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: I didn't do it. You never wished that he was
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: no longer in your life. You never did anything to
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: him that day that would have either actually at his
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: death or that you knew had a good chance of
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: causing his death. I loved him, I did not want
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: to kill him, and I didn't do anything to kill him.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: But that is not the end of the story. Let
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: me pause very briefly and thank our partner making today's
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: investigation into the most recent break in the Kayak killer
• 16:27
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  Speaker 1: legal zoom dot com. Thank you for that. He did
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: not want to. Yeah, straight back to what we're learning
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: right now. Regarding the kayak killing murder mystery, that's really
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: just the tip of the iceberg, because what she says
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: after after he's dead to Karen Start, New York psychologist,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: is that she didn't like having sex with him anymore,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: that he had suggested the idea of threesomes and she
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: just wanted nothing to do with it. You know that
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: she could break up, Karen, you don't have to pull
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: the kayak plug in the middle of the Hudson River. Well,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: they could break up, that's for sure, Nancy, Except um,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: if there's anything that can be gained from him dying,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: and why would she just want to break up? Well,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: here's the thing to actually Wilcott joining US lawyer and advocate.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: What she tells ABC's tent is very different from what
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: she told the police in the interrogation. And the interrogation
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: she says, hold on, I've got to get the very,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: very best quote and then we'll actually listen to it.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: I wanted him dead and now he's gone, and I'm
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: okay with it. That's what she says in an eleven
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: hour interrogation. As a matter of fact, hold on, Ashley,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: listen to this. Right, I'm asking me the question. I
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: want to hear that I want. I want you to
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: tell me truth. Wanted the answer to that question. I wanted, Alga,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: what is the true answer to that question? Right? I
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: want to be dead and now be gone. That's not
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: at all what she tells. I'm not a killer. I
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: would never do anything like this. I love him. But
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Ashley now comes a specter I'm nearly a half a
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: million dollar life insurance policy. Yeah yeah, to hey with
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: not wanting a threesome. This is about the money, absolutely,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: and it's too little, too late. You've already made your statement.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: It's a prior and consistent statement can be used against
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: her in court. And to come out later and say, oh, no,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: I loved him so she can get the money is
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: exactly what she's done in this case too. Karen Smith,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: forensics expert, Karen, I mean, you've seen it all. You've
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: worked on so many murder cases. To change your story
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: and then come up with some cockamami excuse, like they
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: interrogated me too long. I was hungry. I was thirsty
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: for Pete's sake. It was eleven hours, that's it. Nobody
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: beat her in the head with a phone book. I mean,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: she just I don't understand how she could even suggest
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: now that she was forced into this statement. No cop
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: made her say he wanted a threesome. Absolutely not. It
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: wasn't a matter of forcing her to say anything. She
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: made these statements of her free will and they weren't
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: co worced. You know, when we do murder investigations, we're
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: looking for three things. Motive means an opportunity. Well, we
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: have the means, the plug and the paddle and a
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: kayak in three to five foot waves. We have the
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: opportunity there out there in the middle of nowhere, and
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: the motive. Well, that's about half a million reasons in
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: my book for her to commit this crime. Well, this
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: really disturbs me that with all of this evidence, all
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: of the admissions, all of the cockamami excuses she came
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: up with. To David Hopkins, Crimes Roy's investigative reporter, what
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: did Angelica Griswold get as a sentence? Everybody, you might
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: as well sit down. You may need to lay down
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: for this one go ahead. She only got a four
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: years behind bars. Four years behind bars. Ashley Willcott, lawyer
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: and advocate. His family must have gone bersert when that happened.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine for murder manslaughter? I mean, honestly, from
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: beginning to end, this smell bad and I cannot imagine
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: being a family member who learns that this has happening.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: He's been murdered and that's all you get is four years. Hey,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: there was just a sentence I read about that was
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: a financial crime, embezzlement and it was a hundred and
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars and that person was sentenced to serve
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: ten years. So where's that right? You embezzle a hundred
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: and fifty thousand year in jail ten years. You kill
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: someone and you're in jail for four Actually her sentence,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Ashley Angelica grass Wold, just thirty seven years old, got
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: the sentence of one and a third to four years
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: in the state prison for the death of forty six
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: year old Vince and Via for a She actually had
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: even played guilty and that was the bit that that's
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: all they could do. Now Here is the shocker. Here
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: is the shocker. She's already out, she is out from
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: behind bars. It's it's amazing, it's a shock. According to
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: the A four A sister, my brother did not deserve
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: to have his life in this way. I mean to you.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert, death by drowning is a horrible
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: way to die. What exactly happens to your body, Well,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: we're dealing with really cold water, Nancy, So your body
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: first is going to pretty much go numb. And what's
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: going to happen after that is you're going to have
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: a reflex. Your your diaphragm is going to contract. You're
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: going to want to pull in air. It's a natural reflex.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: No matter how long you try to hold your breath,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: it's going to happen. And unfortunately, if you're in that
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: choppy water and if you're going under that reflexes instead
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: of air, it's going to pull in water and that's
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: going to start the drowning process. And unfortunately, um, that's
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: what happened in this case. When police asked her during
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: her interrogation how it made her feel to watch Via
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: for A fighting for his life in the cold, choppy water,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: her response was, quote euphoric, take a listen to this
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: to the point that did you feel like this is
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the only way out? That brings us up to the
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: here and now? What is the most recent bombshell to
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: David Hopkins, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell us, Uh,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: she's already out and uh she's the apparently now seeking
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: of money from the life insurance. That's right, David Hopkins.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: The very latest is that the kayak killer, who has
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: pled guilty to the death of Vincent via Foray by
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: pulling the plug on his kayak in the last hours,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: has announced she wants to claim her fiance's four hundred
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: and ninety one thousand dollar life insurance policy. The convicted
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Kayak killer just isn't giving up. She's not giving up
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: the ghost on trying to profit from her fiance's death,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: and now she's actually taking on his family, his blood relatives,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: for the right to a half a million dollars of
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: insurance policy. Karen Start, I mean, does she know no? Shame? Well,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: shame has nothing to do with this, Nancy. When you're
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: talking about someone who is capable of killing, they don't
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: have a conscience, They don't care about his family. I
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: would suspect that this is what she wanted all along.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: She wanted to be able to get ahold of this money,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: a half a million dollars life insurance policy. Now we
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: do know, and correct me if I'm wrong. David Hopkins
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: that she was listed as a forty five beneficiary on that.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: But when you kill somebody, don't shouldn't you lose your
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: rights to the life insurance policy. She is actually contesting
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: an effort by the Afores family to bar her from
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: getting her mits on that money. To as she will
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: caught lawyer and advocate Way in Ashley, I'm stunned. Well,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: let me say this. So, what insurance companies do is
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: if there's any fraud, alleged fraud, or intentional willful act
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: that interferes with the necessity or ability or appropriateness of
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: them to pay out, they fight it. And so the
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: fact that she entered a plea and she was sentenced
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: to jail time, and she therefore has a conviction for
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: this particular crime, rest assured. I do not believe that
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: that insurance company is going to pay out that percentage
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: to her. Well wait a minute, you think that, right,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: But the reality is the family, his blood relatives are
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: actually having to put up a fight. Now, if this
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: is any indication about how she rolled, we learned this
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: care and Star are New York psychologists joining me. She
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: gets out of prison after just a couple of months.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: This is a lot Vian immigrant who watches her fiance
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: fight for his life and drown, sinking down to the
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: bottom of the Hudson River. She walks out of prison
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: and celebrates with martinis and a steak lunch. Yes, she
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: walked out just one month after the sentencing, and then
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: goes out and has a nice, rare bloody steak and martinis.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: It just looks bad, Hearin. It looks bad and fits
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: her profile because this is somebody who intentionally murdered this man.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: She was able to make sure that his kayak would
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: not be able to withstand. She played around with those oars.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Then she's called it a tragic accident. Nothing that she
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: does makes sense. So for her this was freedom. She
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: got away with it, and she has then the nerve
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: to be able to ask to get this money. Because
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: she has no conscience, no thought of killing somebody, it
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: does not affect her nancy. She went right out and
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: headed to an upscale Eatery went up to the second
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: floor for a to a private room, where she ordered
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: and devoured a thirty eight dollar steak, nice and bloody
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: during a two hour lunch started off with a round
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: of martinis. I can't tell you how irritated I am
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: right now. And I know that family events of the
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: AFA is just beside themselves, and now they've got to
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: launch a fight with her over his insurance money. You know,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: even if she does get the money, which is very possible,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: the family can sue her for wrongful death. But Ashley Wilcot, lawyer,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: and advocate it's just wrong. She kills him, she gets
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: life insurance Paul see, and they have to sue her
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: and spend all their money on a rawful death suit,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: and she uses what money she has to live high
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: on the hog and for lawyers, I mean Ashley, that's
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: not justice, it's not And that's the problem is that
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: if she gets her hands on the money are already has,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: it'll be well spent by her before they ever get
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: a judgment against her. So there's really no good outcome
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: in this case. It's not a just outcome and it's
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: really ethically morally, it feels bad. It's not right. Let
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: me ask you this, what is it here? And start?
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Why is it bothering me so much that she goes
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: out that goes straight from the as I call it,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: not the big House but the big doll House, the
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: women's correctional facility to see I and go straight out
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: for martinis in a bloody steak. It just is rubbing
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: me the wrong way. Well, the whole thing steaks. And
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: see that's why it's rubbing you the wrong way. How
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: could somebody who killed, who murdered and the person and
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: who actually did a plea deal so that she could
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: get less time and a different kind of sentence winds
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: up going out and celebrating knowing that the person that
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: she supposedly loved is dead. And I think the thing
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: that really gets to you is that she's not even
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: pretending that she cares. I mean, come on, Karen Stark,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: some men will ask you to do anything. All you
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: have to do is say no. It typically, if she
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: didn't want to three some and she didn't want to
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: do what he wanted to, say no for Pete's sake,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: break up if you don't like it. Nobody was making
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: or stay with him. She'd already been through two husbands
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: in the short time she was in the US before
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: she watched On, got her tentacles wrapped around v A
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: four eight. Now he's dead. I pitted the next guy
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: she wants into. But why should she make a profit
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: off of it? Karen start, Well, it doesn't make sense
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: that she should. But as at this point, Nancy, there
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: is no law that prevents her. She's out of jail
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: from you know, requesting that money, she's allowed to do it. Well,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: so much for love at first sight. That's all I've
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: got to say. We're on it and I intend to
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: stay on it and make sure Angelica Grasshold does not
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: get that money. You know what, It can be exhausting, right,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: working all day, raising your children into the night, then
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: up the next morning to do the next thing, to
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: keep it all going. And what I'm doing to increase
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: my energy is to work on my blood pressure and circulation.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I know you don't think about it a lot, but
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: you should. And this is why circulation is crucial to
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: maintaining energy and stamina. Because circulation, which is moving your
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: blood through your body, the red blood cells take oxygen
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: and nutrients to all the parts of your body. That
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: helps you exercise longer, do more everyday activities. So what
• 33:08
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• 33:13
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• 33:17
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• 33:21
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• 33:27
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• 33:31
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• 33:34
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• 33:37
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• 33:41
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• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I knew it with him, but everybody kept time.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: You know, don't think the worst, but me. I'm the grandmother,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: so I knew it was him. We have devoted a
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: lot of time, energy, and investigation in trying to identify
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: the remains of a four year old little boy that
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: was found in a bag in a yard, and we
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: have breaking news right now that the little boy has
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: been identified. Take a listen to what his grandmother has
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: to say. I did see the sketch and I put
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: his picture next to the composed it and a what
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I really knew with him was from from the teeth,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: how they were formed in shape. A medical examiner has
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: finally identified the remains found in a bag. This was
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: no accident. You don't have an accident, die and crawl
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: into a bag at age four. This bag was found
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: in the backyard of the Cleveland home, a home that
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: was vacant and having construction work done on it. This
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: was last year and we have been trying our best
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: to have those remains identified. How does a child go
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: missing and nobody knows? How can a body turn up
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: in a bag and nobody identifies the baby? Authorities say
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: in the last hours that they have identified this tiny child.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking about my twins at age four?
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: How hell plus and tiny? They were joining me right now.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Syndicated talk show host Dave Mac. Dave Mac telling us
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: the latest out of Cleveland. Dave, what do you know
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: about them finally identifying these remains? You know you you
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: mentioned a four year old and nobody reported him missing.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: That's the most shocking thing I can possibly think of.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: It's a vacant home and a guy is pruning trees
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: in the backyard and cuts open a garbage bag and
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: finds a complete skeleton inside and nobody had reported him missing.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I'm still trying to die. Okay, wait, wait what w
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: whoa whoa whoa hold on? Dave Matt to Karen Smith,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: forensics expert, Karen if he was already skeletonized, that means
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: he had been there for some time exactly right. It
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: means months, if not years. And I believe that they've
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: dated it back to the spring or summer, and that's
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: going to make the medical examiner's job all that more
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: difficult because you're dealing with there's no I hate to
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: be like this, but there's no flesh remaining, so there's
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: not going to be the superficial bruising or the deep
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: bruising left. There's not gonna be much evidence. So they're
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: really going to have to put their nose to the
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: grindstone to find out what may have happened to this
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: poor little boy. This little boy now identified as four
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: year old Eliza Ruiz. The four year old has just
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: been identified after months we have spent trying to spread
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: the word and the sketch by a sketch artist made
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: from the tiny remains, I mean, how does that work?
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Karen Smith? How do you know? I've done it? In court?
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Several times fraud remains, decomposed remains, bring in an expert
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: who can actually make a sketch of the face of
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: the dead person. How does that work when they're already skeletonized.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: It's kind of a fascinating process. And I've seen a
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: lot of facial reconstruction artists use clay um. They actually
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: put different levels of foam on the skull and they
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: form what they believed to be a good likeness of
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: the person. And I would think that a child would
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: be doubly difficult, because you know, their facial bones haven't
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: formed in the way that adults have, so it's it's
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: kind of speculative. But from the drawing that I saw, Um,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: it was really quite compelling, and obviously it led to
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: his identity, or at least help to this is not
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: just any little boy. This little boy was beautiful with
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: a sparkly happy personality. Listen to what his grandmother says,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: personality is um, happy, go lucky. He was always um.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: He was always doing something to make somebody laugh. It's
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: heartbreaking that after this composite sketch, which really broke the
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: case wide open, the grandmother says, I knew as soon
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: as I saw the smile and the sketch that it
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: was Eliza. I knew as soon as I saw the
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: smile it was my grandson. It's just more painful than
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: I can even think of. But now the question is
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: how how did this child die and why? What is
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: the cause and manner of death? To Dave Mack, syndicated
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: talk show host, as of right now, the County Medical
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Examiner's office is still trying to figure out the cause
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: and manner of death. Isn't that right? His mom has
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: been away since February of two thousand seventeen, and his death,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: or they're assuming right now trying to figure out an
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: actual real time of death came sometime after that when
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: he was not in the custody of his mother but
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: in the custody of his godmother. And that's what they're
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: trying to trace back to what was going on in
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: his life, because again, he was he was well fed,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: he was in okay shape. They can't find any outward
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: signs of trauma, and they just don't have any answers yet.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Joining me, Ashley Will caught lawyer, sitting judge and child advocate. Ashley,
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: you know what I noticed in all the many years
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: I prosecuted felonies that when a lot of people handled
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: cases where a child is the victim, the police sentence
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: is less, the sentence is less at trial. I don't
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: know why, but I do not want this treated lightly.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: Somebody needs to go to jail for life on this,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: if not worse. Ashley, I agree. And here's the thing.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: The fact that the child was never reported missing is
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: suspicious in and of itself because that means that whoever
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: had the child murdered the child. Otherwise somebody would have
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: reported the child missing. So you have a lot of
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: elements of different crimes in this particular case so that
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: they can identify a suspect and actually prosecute them. And
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: I will tell you it shows like yours that raise
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: public awareness because we have got to get stricter, harsher
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: sentencing for those who murder children. Joining me is Karen Starting,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: New York psychologist and Karen Smith forensics expert. Karen Smith,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: how are they going to determine if the body is
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: mostly skeletonized, how are they going to determine the cause
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: of death? That's a really good question. So unless the
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: skeletonized remains have some kind of mark on them. You know,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: it's really difficult for me to talk about doing a
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: vicious homicide to a child, but we have to look
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: at that as a possibility. Are their marks left on
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: the bones that were found in the bag. Also, this
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: could be a forensic case. You have a bag, you
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: have a trash bag, and even though it was in
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: the elements for a long time, if the bag was
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: folded and we can find trace DNA remnants on the
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: outside of that bag or the inside of that bag
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: where the child was placed, we can do a comparison.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: They had a DNA profile that identified the child, So
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: if we can run a DNA profile against that sample
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: and find out if there's any foreign DNA, that's going
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: to open up a whole new bag of worms. Also,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: why did they choose the house they chose to dump
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: the bag? To me, that tells me that whoever did
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: it is familiar with the area. They knew that house
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: had been abandoned, and they knew that it was a
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: place to place it where nobody would notice, nobody would
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: say anything, and it would remain there for a long time. Well,
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: there has to be more than just skeletons, because we
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: know right now Karen Smith that although many reports said
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: skeleton I so had to be more than that, because
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: the EMMY is saying uh. And this is the county
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: medical Examiner, Thomas Gilson, has said that Eliza was healthy
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: up to his death, well nourished, and no obvious signs
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: of trauma. So what that means to me is he
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: must be partially skeletonized because the medical examiner knows there's
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: no obvious signs with trauma, and we're telling is that
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: he was well nourished. So there had to be soft
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: tissue enough for that. Yes, that's correct, Nancy. It may
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: not be enough soft tissue enable to enable them to
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: give a cause and manner of death. Hopefully it's enough
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: for them to determine the cause or some precipitating reason
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: why this child died or was murdered. Um that they found.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: They said that his hair was brown, and hair is
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: very hearty. It can last a long time even in
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: that environment, so hopefully there was enough there for them
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: to make a ruling. We know that DNA has now
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: confirmed that this is in fact Eliza. We also know
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: that the child was in the care of is godmother
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: in the mom's absence. I don't know where the dad is.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know where that piece of the puzzle fits
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: into this scenario, but I know this. We want justice,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: and Eliza's grandmother could not agree more. Listen, I wish
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: that the person I did is to him could get
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: the same that they did to him, whatever that may be.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: If you have information to help solve the mystery surrounding
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: the death of this four year old little boy, Eliza,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: please call two one six four War three six thousand,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Repeat to one six four for three six thousand. Nancy
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories, signing off, goodbye friend,