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Thanksgiving Special: Talkin' Turkey · Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe

0:06
Speaker 1: Happy Thanksgiving friends, or happy Thanksgiving to our US based
0:10
Speaker 1: friends at least, and happy November twenty eighth to the
0:13
Speaker 1: rest of you.
0:14
Speaker 2: On today's episode, we're going to give you.
0:16
Speaker 1: Some things to gobble about at the Thanksgiving dinner table
0:19
Speaker 1: other than politics.
0:21
Speaker 3: You're welcome.
0:22
Speaker 1: First up, we have an expert on to talk about
0:25
Speaker 1: whether or not the trip to fan in Turkey actually
0:28
Speaker 1: makes you.
0:28
Speaker 2: Sleepy after Thanksgiving dinner.
0:30
Speaker 1: Then we're moving on to talking about a vegetable that
0:33
Speaker 1: comes in a variety of forms, all of which are
0:36
Speaker 1: improved by lots and lots of cheese. And finally we're
0:40
Speaker 1: talking about why it takes so stink and long to
0:42
Speaker 1: cook a turkey and some probably bad ideas for how
0:47
Speaker 1: you could speed this process up. Welcome to Daniel and
0:50
Speaker 1: Kelly's Extraordinary universe.
1:05
Speaker 4: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and Thanksgiving is
1:08
Speaker 4: my favorite holiday.
1:09
Speaker 1: Ooh. I'm Kelly Weener Smith. I'm a parasitologist and I
1:13
Speaker 1: really like Thanksgiving. I don't know if it's my favorite holiday,
1:16
Speaker 1: but I do love the food.
1:19
Speaker 4: It's food, it's family, and crucially for me, it's not commercialized.
1:24
Speaker 4: It's not all about shopping and expensive presence. It's really
1:27
Speaker 4: just about spending time with your family eating good food,
1:30
Speaker 4: and like, hey, what's better than that?
1:31
Speaker 2: Right, that's pure, that is that's beautiful. I love that.
1:34
Speaker 1: So has the commercialization of Halloween ruined Halloween for you?
1:40
Speaker 2: Because that's a top contender for rey.
1:41
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy. We all just go out and buy
1:44
Speaker 4: a bunch of candy and give it to each other.
1:45
Speaker 4: It's hilarious. Although I do like the community aspect that
1:48
Speaker 4: everybody comes out. My neighborhood goes crazy for Halloween. We
1:52
Speaker 4: get hundreds and hundreds of trigger treaters. We give away
1:55
Speaker 4: like a full garbage can full of candy. It's incredible.
1:59
Speaker 2: Wow, that is incredible.
2:00
Speaker 4: This Halloween, we ran out of candy. We started giving
2:02
Speaker 4: away stuff from our pantry and people were excited. They
2:04
Speaker 4: were like, ooh, canned corn, sweet potatoes, Are you serious? Yeah? Absolutely.
2:10
Speaker 4: We gave away dried beans, we gave away summer sausage.
2:14
Speaker 4: People were very excited to get anything but candy. Actually,
2:17
Speaker 4: maybe next year we're just going to give away sweet potatoes.
2:20
Speaker 2: That's amazing. I love that.
2:22
Speaker 1: I remember there were, like, you know, some neighbors who
2:23
Speaker 1: would do the king size candy bars. And some would
2:27
Speaker 1: give you a dollar, and then we had a neighbor
2:28
Speaker 1: who gave a penny and we were all like, what, No,
2:32
Speaker 1: it's not okay, you fail.
2:34
Speaker 4: My Thanksgiving questions for you are what are your most
2:37
Speaker 4: and least favorite items on the Thanksgiving table?
2:41
Speaker 2: Oh man?
2:41
Speaker 1: So you know, I often have Thanksgiving up my parents' house,
2:45
Speaker 1: and like, literally everything my father makes is amazing. Everything
2:50
Speaker 1: is like my favorite thing. And every year he tries
2:52
Speaker 1: a new pie or cake, which is incredible. He makes
2:55
Speaker 1: these fantastic like almond cookies for me every year and
2:58
Speaker 1: then sends me home with so many that I I
3:00
Speaker 1: put on like fifty pounds. So I have no least favorite.
3:05
Speaker 1: Anything with mushrooms I don't really like. And sometimes when
3:07
Speaker 1: I don't have Thanksgiving with my dad, mushrooms sneak into
3:10
Speaker 1: the meal and that's disappointing.
3:12
Speaker 2: But all right, so what about you?
3:13
Speaker 4: My favorite thing on the table is probably turkey wings.
3:16
Speaker 4: Not a big fan of turkey, but the wings. Love
3:18
Speaker 4: the wings, so crunchy, so good. Though I gross out
3:21
Speaker 4: my daughter by like audibly crunching them at the table,
3:24
Speaker 4: and she's a vegetarian, so that's not so funny for her.
3:28
Speaker 4: And my least favorite are people who put marshmallows on
3:31
Speaker 4: sweet potatoes. I just don't get it. Like, to me,
3:34
Speaker 4: that combination makes no sense. It's like snickers bars on
3:37
Speaker 4: a hamburger or something like, what is going on here?
3:40
Speaker 1: Not sure I have a problem with snickers bar on
3:42
Speaker 1: hamburger either, but that would be a little weird. I
3:45
Speaker 1: can't say I'm bothered by the marshmallows on the sweet potatoes,
3:47
Speaker 1: but it's not one of the first things I go to.
3:50
Speaker 1: But I think I'm with your daughter. I'd probably sit
3:52
Speaker 1: on the other side of the table. I'm not a
3:55
Speaker 1: big fan of the sounds of crunching on bones.
3:57
Speaker 4: Personally audible carnivores.
4:01
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like if I were a better person,
4:03
Speaker 1: I would be more at peace with what it takes
4:06
Speaker 1: to put the food on my table. But I like
4:08
Speaker 1: to bury my head a little bit when I can.
4:10
Speaker 4: But you live on a farm, right, You're very connected
4:13
Speaker 4: to where your food comes from.
4:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're all friends on my farm. They don't
4:17
Speaker 1: end up on the table. Their eggs do.
4:19
Speaker 4: But not them.
4:21
Speaker 2: Yeah.
4:22
Speaker 4: Just their children, well.
4:24
Speaker 1: They're not children, yeah, just their proto children. I mean,
4:28
Speaker 1: even our nasty roosters didn't end up on the table,
4:31
Speaker 1: even though that was at tempting.
4:32
Speaker 4: Sometimes. All right, well, we're not just here to debate
4:35
Speaker 4: when life begins for chickens. We're here to talk about
4:39
Speaker 4: the science of Thanksgiving, what it means, how it works.
4:43
Speaker 4: As you all sit there and enjoy your Thanksgiving meal,
4:45
Speaker 4: we want to inject a little bit of science into
4:47
Speaker 4: your sleepy afternoon.
4:49
Speaker 2: We do.
4:49
Speaker 1: And one of the scientific factoids that I feel like
4:53
Speaker 1: I hear every year is that trip to a fan
4:56
Speaker 1: in the Turkey makes you sleepy. And I believe the
4:59
Speaker 1: history of the word factoid is that it used to
5:01
Speaker 1: be a little piece of information that's wrong.
5:04
Speaker 4: It's an anti fact I see exactly.
5:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, these days it means a tiny fact, but I
5:09
Speaker 1: think it used to mean this is not correct. And
5:11
Speaker 1: that is the story with tript to fan making you sleepy.
5:14
Speaker 1: And we got lucky because your wife knew an expert
5:18
Speaker 1: that we could talk to about this topic.
5:19
Speaker 4: Katrina knows a lot of fun, smart people, so I
5:22
Speaker 4: often ask her for help in finding an expert. So
5:25
Speaker 4: we were very lucky to get to talk to doctor
5:27
Speaker 4: Mark Mapstone here at UC Irvine. But whether or not
5:31
Speaker 4: trypto fan actually makes you sleepy or if it's all
5:34
Speaker 4: just a huge nation wide placebo effect.
5:37
Speaker 1: And he was a fun guy to talk to, so
5:38
Speaker 1: none of us are going to have trouble staying awake,
5:40
Speaker 1: even if we ate a lot of turkey.
5:42
Speaker 4: Here's our chat with Mark.
5:46
Speaker 1: Okay, So the first topic we're tackling for the Thanksgiving
5:49
Speaker 1: episode is whether or not the trip to Fan in
5:52
Speaker 1: Turkey actually makes you sleepy. And we have an expert
5:55
Speaker 1: on the show today to help us with that. We
5:57
Speaker 1: invited doctor Mark Mapstone's chief of the Neuropsychology Division in
6:02
Speaker 1: the Department of Neurology at UC Irvine.
6:04
Speaker 3: Welcome to the show, Mark, Thank you for having me.
6:07
Speaker 3: It's great to be here.
6:08
Speaker 1: We're excited to have you to debunk this. So when
6:11
Speaker 1: I was an undergrad, I remember sitting in an anatomy
6:14
Speaker 1: and physiology class and having my professor say, Okay, Thanksgiving
6:18
Speaker 1: is coming, You're gonna eat turkey, You're gonna be tired,
6:20
Speaker 1: and that's because of the trip to Fan.
6:23
Speaker 2: Is that true? Is that how it works?
6:25
Speaker 4: Well?
6:25
Speaker 3: Probably not.
6:27
Speaker 5: This is a myth that's been going around for decades,
6:29
Speaker 5: if not centuries, This idea that this essential amino acid
6:33
Speaker 5: called trip to fan that's present in Turkey, which it
6:36
Speaker 5: is causing you to become sleepy, and there's a.
6:39
Speaker 3: Background for that. There's a nugget of truth.
6:41
Speaker 5: Specifically, tryp to fan is an amino acid that we need.
6:46
Speaker 5: It's an essential amino acid that we need for protein
6:49
Speaker 5: construction in our bodies, and we don't get it. We
6:52
Speaker 5: can't make it ourselves. We can't make all that we
6:54
Speaker 5: need by ourselves, so we have to get it from
6:56
Speaker 5: our diets. And there are nine essential amino acids that
7:00
Speaker 5: we get from our diet, and.
7:02
Speaker 3: The trip to fan is one of them.
7:04
Speaker 5: However, it turns out that Turkey isn't the only place
7:07
Speaker 5: you can find trip to fan, and as a matter
7:08
Speaker 5: of fact, Turkey isn't the highest density of trip to
7:12
Speaker 5: fan as far as other foods as well, So it's
7:14
Speaker 5: found in dairy eggs, other poultry, meat, even beef. There's
7:19
Speaker 5: nothing special about the amount of trip to fan in Turkey. However,
7:23
Speaker 5: trip to fan is very important in the synthesis of
7:27
Speaker 5: a number of other chemicals that affect the brain and
7:30
Speaker 5: behavior which might lead you to feel sleepy, and those
7:34
Speaker 5: chemicals are serotonin and melatonin. So there's a nugget of truth.
7:39
Speaker 5: But probably you have to eat like ten pounds of
7:41
Speaker 5: turkey to get enough trip to fan to really make
7:44
Speaker 5: that direct effect to make you sleepy.
7:46
Speaker 2: I'm up for that challenge getting but I've done it before.
7:52
Speaker 4: Anything for the science.
7:53
Speaker 1: Exactly, I have a lot of friends and kids who
7:56
Speaker 1: take melotone into sleep. How good is the science showing
7:59
Speaker 1: that orally consuming melatonin actually results in better sleep or
8:04
Speaker 1: more sleep?
8:04
Speaker 3: Probably not so strong.
8:06
Speaker 5: A lot of it is metabolized in the gut before
8:08
Speaker 5: it even gets out to get to the brain. So
8:11
Speaker 5: it turns out that most of the serotonin that's produced
8:14
Speaker 5: in our bodies is produced in the gut. The epithelial
8:17
Speaker 5: lining of the gut produces the serotonin, probably ninety percent.
8:21
Speaker 5: Although serotonin is widely used throughout the body, we think
8:25
Speaker 5: of it mostly in the brain. And serotonin is the
8:28
Speaker 5: feel good drug. It's the chemical that, similar to dopamine,
8:32
Speaker 5: kind of can make you feel It's a mood altering
8:34
Speaker 5: or mood regulating neurochemical that our bodies produce in states
8:38
Speaker 5: that we require for making our mood good. So serotonin
8:43
Speaker 5: is produced in the gut and it's also produced in
8:46
Speaker 5: the brain. So most of the brain relevant serotonin is
8:50
Speaker 5: produced in the raphae nucleus. So this is a chemical
8:53
Speaker 5: that's produced within the brain, but it's also very important
8:56
Speaker 5: and produced largely in the gut.
8:58
Speaker 3: Ninety percent of it comes from the gut.
9:00
Speaker 4: Can I step in with totally naive skepticism about how
9:02
Speaker 4: much we understand any of this stuff? I mean, can
9:05
Speaker 4: we identify an individual chemical and said, this one makes
9:07
Speaker 4: you feel good, this one makes you feel X like.
9:10
Speaker 4: Isn't it a whole symphony of complex chemistry that few
9:13
Speaker 4: people understand maybe a little bit.
9:16
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, you're You're absolutely right. When people start saying
9:19
Speaker 5: this particular neurochemical does this, you have to realize that
9:22
Speaker 5: all of this is happening in this complex miilu. You know,
9:26
Speaker 5: the brain is more than just a big bag of chemicals.
9:29
Speaker 5: There are specificity for certain networks and certain areas of
9:34
Speaker 5: the brain for each of these chemicals. They don't just
9:35
Speaker 5: all float around. But you're absolutely right. You can't really
9:38
Speaker 5: just take one neurochemical in isolation and say this gives
9:43
Speaker 5: you this. It's really a combination of many things.
9:46
Speaker 4: And do we understand the sort of microphysical process like
9:49
Speaker 4: this chemical least to this, which does this? Or is
9:51
Speaker 4: it all just sort of like correlational studies, where like, hey,
9:54
Speaker 4: we gave rats a bunch of serotonin and they looked happy.
9:57
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you know, that's kind of how science go.
10:00
Speaker 5: We can only start with reductionists sort of questions, and
10:03
Speaker 5: we can test those, and then we have to extrapolate
10:05
Speaker 5: to bigger issues and bigger concepts and make bigger inferences.
10:08
Speaker 5: So we do have to start with very tightly controlled
10:11
Speaker 5: sorts of things like that, Like you move one neurochemical
10:14
Speaker 5: a little bit, you feed them some trip to fan
10:15
Speaker 5: and they get sleepy. Although Givens isn't really strong for that,
10:19
Speaker 5: there's lots of foods that do that. There's probably bigger
10:21
Speaker 5: contributions to feeling sleepy after Thanksgiving dinner than trip to fan,
10:27
Speaker 5: and we can review those if you'd like, But let's
10:30
Speaker 5: review those.
10:31
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of people out there are
10:32
Speaker 1: probably thinking, but after I eat turkey dinner.
10:34
Speaker 2: I do feel sleepy. So what is happening there?
10:38
Speaker 3: So you're also doing a lot of other things.
10:40
Speaker 5: So Thanksgiving dinner traditionally, at least at my house, I mean,
10:44
Speaker 5: we've got mashed potatoes, you've got stuffing, you've got pumpkin pie.
10:48
Speaker 5: I mean all of the carbs that you're eating is
10:51
Speaker 5: going to make you feel sleepy to begin with this
10:54
Speaker 5: post prandial effect. And we know this every day after
10:58
Speaker 5: you eat lunch, righted an hour to an hour a
11:01
Speaker 5: half after you eat lunch, you tend to get sleepy.
11:03
Speaker 5: It's that why you need that cup of coffee in
11:05
Speaker 5: the early afternoon. The same thing happens at Thanksgiving, but
11:08
Speaker 5: we tend to do it like crazy ten times even
11:11
Speaker 5: more than the eating. So we do tend to overindulge
11:13
Speaker 5: in Thanksgiving dinner and it's usually on carbs that are
11:16
Speaker 5: going to make you very sleepy. These are things that
11:20
Speaker 5: divert your blood flow from brain from muscles to the
11:24
Speaker 5: guts so that you can deal with all of the
11:26
Speaker 5: stuff that you just smacked in your gob So it's
11:29
Speaker 5: all part of like overeating. It's what you're overeating. It's
11:32
Speaker 5: carbs and sugars and things like this. Maybe very minor
11:35
Speaker 5: effects of the trip to fan in the turkeys is
11:37
Speaker 5: probably what's going on. And you're probably having a glass
11:39
Speaker 5: of wine with that or more who knows or even
11:42
Speaker 5: you know, while you're watching the football game before Thanksgiving dinner.
11:46
Speaker 5: So there's the potential effects of alcohol, which of course
11:48
Speaker 5: is a depressant in the CNS, it tends to make
11:51
Speaker 5: you sleepy, It tends to make you groggy and dope e.
11:54
Speaker 5: So alcohol carbs overeating. So I think if you put
11:58
Speaker 5: all those in a line, trip to fan is like
11:59
Speaker 5: all way down at the.
12:00
Speaker 4: Bottom relatives football, political conversations, politics.
12:05
Speaker 3: I mean that could make you want to go take a.
12:07
Speaker 2: Nap, right amen?
12:08
Speaker 1: Absolutely So when we were talking about trip to fan,
12:11
Speaker 1: you mentioned that it comes from turkey and chicken and eggs,
12:16
Speaker 1: and it all sounded like it came from meat products.
12:20
Speaker 1: Do vegans never get sleepy? Does it also come from plants?
12:23
Speaker 5: So we have what we call protein dens, are perfect
12:27
Speaker 5: foods that have all nine essential amino acids, and those
12:30
Speaker 5: tend to be meats. So I think the protein dense foods, vegetables, beans,
12:34
Speaker 5: that sort of thing does not contain all nine Many
12:37
Speaker 5: of them do contain trip to fans. So do vegans
12:40
Speaker 5: get post Thanksgiving sleepiness?
12:43
Speaker 3: That sounds like a study right there. You should be
12:46
Speaker 3: doing that work.
12:47
Speaker 2: We need money first.
12:48
Speaker 4: Cacina tells me about the three sisters, Like if you
12:51
Speaker 4: have squash and beans and maybe a corn together, then
12:55
Speaker 4: you get all the amino acids.
12:56
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are combinations obviously of the vegetables that you
12:58
Speaker 5: can pull together to make sure you get all nine.
13:00
Speaker 5: And then obviously there's supplements which are not as good,
13:03
Speaker 5: but I mean you'd rather get them directly through the
13:05
Speaker 5: diet rather than take supplements. But people supplement with these
13:08
Speaker 5: as well.
13:09
Speaker 4: Right, But we don't want people to get the impression
13:10
Speaker 4: that you can't get a complete diet as.
13:12
Speaker 5: A vegan, right, right, right? Oh, yeah, I didn't mean
13:15
Speaker 5: to say that at all. You can definitely take vegetarianism
13:19
Speaker 5: and veganism very seriously and get everything you need.
13:22
Speaker 1: So you had said that this idea that trip to
13:25
Speaker 1: fan is what makes us sleepy after Thanksgiving meal has
13:28
Speaker 1: been around for maybe centuries.
13:30
Speaker 2: Do you happen to know.
13:31
Speaker 1: What's the earliest evidence we have of this sort of
13:34
Speaker 1: meme taking flight?
13:35
Speaker 4: Oh?
13:35
Speaker 3: Good question. I wish I had a source for you.
13:37
Speaker 5: It may be when I was in elementary school or
13:40
Speaker 5: high school biology or something, and I first heard this.
13:42
Speaker 4: Myth was that centuries ago, centuries ago.
13:48
Speaker 3: Getting up there, we can talk decades.
13:50
Speaker 5: I may be attributing this to my high school biology
13:53
Speaker 5: teacher who gave that evidence but did not quote a source,
13:56
Speaker 5: so don't quote.
13:56
Speaker 4: Me on that.
13:57
Speaker 2: Okay, got it.
13:58
Speaker 4: How much do we understand about what makes you feel sleepy?
14:01
Speaker 4: I mean, I know neurobiology is really complicated, but this
14:05
Speaker 4: is a very subjective thing, like to feel sleepy. Do
14:08
Speaker 4: we understand the mechanism for that at all? I mean,
14:10
Speaker 4: do you feel sleepy because you need sleep? Is it
14:12
Speaker 4: really just diverting the blood from the brain to the gut.
14:15
Speaker 5: We know that there are certain processes that are involved
14:18
Speaker 5: in regulation of sleep and wake. We refer to these
14:21
Speaker 5: as circadian rhythms, and these are ways that organisms kind
14:25
Speaker 5: of move through the sleep and wake estates and then
14:28
Speaker 5: they're in between states as well. Sleep plays a really
14:31
Speaker 5: important role. We need to sleep. I mean, it's very
14:33
Speaker 5: clear that if you deprive animals or humans of sleep,
14:36
Speaker 5: things go wrong really quickly. You can go for a
14:39
Speaker 5: couple of days, perhaps at the most, without sleep, but
14:42
Speaker 5: you start getting beyond that and you start having derangement
14:44
Speaker 5: of thinking and eventually it can be fatal. This is
14:48
Speaker 5: something that's really critical and for the brain processes sleep.
14:51
Speaker 5: It turns out there's been a new system described as
14:54
Speaker 5: called the glymphatic system, and this is a network that
14:59
Speaker 5: allows for the metabolic and cellular detritis that's produced during
15:03
Speaker 5: waking hours to be removed from the brain. You kind
15:06
Speaker 5: of want the garbage trucks to come around and clean
15:09
Speaker 5: up after you've had a hard day working as a
15:12
Speaker 5: brain cell. So we do this as sleep, and it's
15:15
Speaker 5: really critical to get good sleep because it allows for
15:18
Speaker 5: these clearance mechanisms to proceed and your brain is able
15:21
Speaker 5: to clean up after itself and it kind of shuts
15:23
Speaker 5: down a little bit and allows for these things to happen.
15:26
Speaker 5: So sleep is really important, and we've got to do
15:27
Speaker 5: this in a cyclical way. We go through sleep and
15:30
Speaker 5: wake cycles. And one of the main neurochemicals or neuro
15:34
Speaker 5: hormones frankly as melatonin, which is produced by the pineal
15:38
Speaker 5: gland in the brain, and this is a hormone that
15:41
Speaker 5: regulates the movement between wake and sleep. So this is
15:46
Speaker 5: a very complex system and most organisms, you know, from
15:51
Speaker 5: multicellular organisms to humans, have to go through these cycles
15:55
Speaker 5: to produce meaningful activity, to feed, to reproduce, to do
16:00
Speaker 5: the things that an organism needs.
16:01
Speaker 3: And then you need the downtime.
16:02
Speaker 4: Why do you need to be asleep for the garbage
16:04
Speaker 4: trucks to come in and clean up the mess. What
16:06
Speaker 4: is it that they're doing that you can't be awake for.
16:09
Speaker 5: Oh, that's a good question. I'm not sure that I
16:10
Speaker 5: know the answer to that. I can say that the
16:13
Speaker 5: brain goes into a state, an electrical state where there's
16:17
Speaker 5: oscillations that promote the movement, and that's not compatible with
16:21
Speaker 5: being awake. So it kind of means that when your
16:23
Speaker 5: brain is in this state, it's drowsy, and that allows
16:27
Speaker 5: for these metabolic byproducts to be taken away as garbage.
16:31
Speaker 4: On the topic of understanding sleep, what do you think
16:33
Speaker 4: are things we will understand about sleep in the next
16:35
Speaker 4: ten or fifty or one hundred years that we don't
16:38
Speaker 4: understand today.
16:39
Speaker 5: One thing that I'd love to have us get to
16:42
Speaker 5: the point of is really understanding how these clearance mechanisms work,
16:45
Speaker 5: because there are a number of diseases and disorders of
16:48
Speaker 5: particularly older adulthood, that are probably strongly related to failure
16:55
Speaker 5: of clearance of this cellular stuff. And I'm speaking specifically
16:59
Speaker 5: of Alzheimer's disease, where the build up of proteins in
17:02
Speaker 5: the brain that are normal, they should be there, but
17:06
Speaker 5: they're allowed to build up to a much higher level
17:09
Speaker 5: in people who eventually develop Alzheimer's disease, and the current
17:12
Speaker 5: thinking is that this may be a failure of clearance
17:15
Speaker 5: in the sense that if you're not getting good sleep,
17:18
Speaker 5: then your brain is not taking out the garbage, and
17:20
Speaker 5: it's allowed to build up in a bad way. So
17:23
Speaker 5: a normal, healthy brain and aging brain would allow for
17:27
Speaker 5: that to get out, the garbage to be taken out,
17:29
Speaker 5: but in an Alzheimer's brain, it's not being allowed to
17:33
Speaker 5: We don't clearly understand the mechanisms behind that, but certainly
17:36
Speaker 5: sleep is playing a role. There's a strong correlation between
17:40
Speaker 5: impaired sleep and risk for Alzheimer's disease as we get older,
17:44
Speaker 5: and unfortunately that's probably starting in midlife, probably in our
17:48
Speaker 5: fifties and sixties, when we start having problems with sleep,
17:52
Speaker 5: that's when this is probably happening. So I'd love for
17:55
Speaker 5: us as a scientific field to be able to understand
17:58
Speaker 5: more about that so that we can promote good sleep
18:01
Speaker 5: and promote clearance of these abnormal proteins.
18:04
Speaker 1: Sometimes when I'm having trouble sleeping at night, I panic
18:07
Speaker 1: because I feel like I should be sleeping more, and
18:08
Speaker 1: that keeps me up more and I feel like you've
18:11
Speaker 1: just exacerbated that problem for me.
18:13
Speaker 2: Now I'm going to be like, oh, here comes Alzheimer's.
18:15
Speaker 4: Well, you know a lot of people listen to the
18:17
Speaker 4: podcast to fall asleep. So would you say, Mark, as
18:20
Speaker 4: a medical doctor, that you're prescribing listening to the podcast,
18:23
Speaker 4: this podcast is actually good for your body?
18:26
Speaker 3: It could be. However, I am not a physician.
18:29
Speaker 5: I'm a PhD Clinical psychologist, so I can't write scripts anyways,
18:34
Speaker 5: I give recommendations and yeah, this.
18:35
Speaker 3: Sounds like a great thing to fall asleep too.
18:37
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to go ahead and prescribe our podcast
18:39
Speaker 1: to our listeners. I medically shouldn't do that either, but
18:43
Speaker 1: I'm doing it all right.
18:44
Speaker 2: Thanks so much Mark for being on the show.
18:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're welcome, Thanks for having.
18:48
Speaker 1: Me, and we're back and we're ready to tackle topic
19:07
Speaker 1: number two. All right, So let's move on to another
19:10
Speaker 1: staple of the Thanksgiving dinner table, which are veggies. And
19:14
Speaker 1: for Daniel's sake, we're not going to put any marshmallows
19:17
Speaker 1: on them.
19:18
Speaker 4: Thank you. I know veggies don't need marshmallows. They're delicious
19:21
Speaker 4: by themselves.
19:22
Speaker 2: I think they could use cheese most of the time.
19:24
Speaker 2: But we can agree to disagree there.
19:26
Speaker 1: So a few years ago I was surprised to learn
19:29
Speaker 1: that a bunch of the veggies that I smother with
19:31
Speaker 1: cheese are all from exactly the same species of plant.
19:35
Speaker 1: What Yeah, So, just like dogs, whose scientific name is
19:39
Speaker 1: Canus lupus familiaris, we've used artificial selection to sort of
19:44
Speaker 1: change the way that they look so that they can
19:46
Speaker 1: have different traits that we appreciate for different reasons.
19:49
Speaker 2: So we have everything from tiny.
19:50
Speaker 1: Little chihuahuas that you could fit in your bag and
19:52
Speaker 1: they're super cute all the way up to great Danes,
19:55
Speaker 1: which my husband is afraid of.
19:56
Speaker 4: But you don't have dogs in your Thanksgiving table. That's
19:58
Speaker 4: not where this is going.
20:00
Speaker 2: Where this is going. No, no, no no.
20:02
Speaker 1: But another species that we have artificially selected to produce
20:07
Speaker 1: very varied forms that humans like for different reasons is
20:10
Speaker 1: a plant called Brassica olerasia. And this is the plant
20:15
Speaker 1: that produces kale, coole, robbie cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts.
20:23
Speaker 4: Brussels sprouts too. This is like a monopoly on the
20:27
Speaker 4: Thanksgiving table.
20:28
Speaker 1: I know they're all the same species, and that kind
20:30
Speaker 1: of blew my mind.
20:31
Speaker 2: They look really different.
20:33
Speaker 4: So you're saying Brussels sprouts are to cauliflower like chihuahuas
20:37
Speaker 4: are to cocker spaniels exactly.
20:39
Speaker 1: And I think that if podcasting doesn't work out for us,
20:41
Speaker 1: you have a future writing SAT questions, which I hated
20:46
Speaker 1: taking when I was younger.
20:49
Speaker 4: Then I'm not taking that as a compliment, Kelly, that
20:51
Speaker 4: was a backhanded insu.
20:55
Speaker 2: Okay, it wasn't meant to be.
20:56
Speaker 1: I would have enjoyed taking the SAT much more if
20:59
Speaker 1: you had written questions, Oh.
21:01
Speaker 4: Nice, save, nice, save, all right, I am smooth. Well,
21:06
Speaker 4: I'm a fan of all those vegetables you suggested, but
21:08
Speaker 4: they all seem so different. I mean there's a green
21:10
Speaker 4: sort of leafiness, like a crunchiness to them all. But
21:13
Speaker 4: you know, like cabbage you can eat totally raw, and
21:16
Speaker 4: kale you definitely shouldn't. How can all these really be
21:19
Speaker 4: the same kind of vegetable?
21:21
Speaker 1: Okay, So there was this wild plant that we think
21:24
Speaker 1: came from the Mediterranean, and it was domesticated, and this
21:27
Speaker 1: happened a really long time ago, right, So a lot
21:30
Speaker 1: of this information has been lost to history, but here's
21:32
Speaker 1: what we think happened. So initially, people found versions of
21:36
Speaker 1: this plant that looked different, and some of them had
21:38
Speaker 1: bigger leaves, and so we like preferentially planted the ones
21:42
Speaker 1: that had bigger leaves, and over time, by picking the
21:44
Speaker 1: ones that have the biggest leaves and then helping those
21:46
Speaker 1: have plant babies over and over again, we ended up
21:49
Speaker 1: getting big leafed plants like kale.
21:53
Speaker 2: So that's where kale came from. That's when you get
21:55
Speaker 2: a lot of leaves.
21:56
Speaker 4: So this is just artificial selection. It's like greeting your
21:58
Speaker 4: donks to have certain traits by setting up the matches, yes,
22:01
Speaker 4: or the way that we like took korn from having
22:03
Speaker 4: these tiny little kernels to this enormous, monstrous deliciousness. It's
22:08
Speaker 4: the same sort of effect, but it takes a long time, right,
22:10
Speaker 4: This is not something you can do in a lab
22:12
Speaker 4: in ten years. It's like hundreds of years or thousands
22:15
Speaker 4: of years of work.
22:16
Speaker 1: So a lot of the answers to this stuff have
22:18
Speaker 1: been lost to history. So, like we know there were
22:20
Speaker 1: Greeks around three hundred years BCE who would write about
22:26
Speaker 1: kley kinds of plants, and so we think that, you know,
22:30
Speaker 1: thousands of years ago this was like starting to happen.
22:32
Speaker 1: But you know, over time, like when someone uses whatever
22:35
Speaker 1: the Greek word was for, like cabbage or kale, It's
22:38
Speaker 1: possible they were referring to a different plant, but we
22:41
Speaker 1: think they were referring to this one. And so we
22:43
Speaker 1: don't know exactly when all of these different forms popped out,
22:47
Speaker 1: but we think that we started with big leafy things
22:49
Speaker 1: like kale, and that was maybe a few thousand years ago.
22:52
Speaker 4: Incredible that we don't know the history of our own foods.
22:55
Speaker 4: It's fascinating, I know. You know, whenever there's a gap
22:58
Speaker 4: in our knowledge, you always find some core order the
23:00
Speaker 4: Internet where there's conspiracy theories about it, you know, like
23:03
Speaker 4: how did the Egyptians build the Pyramids? So I wonder
23:05
Speaker 4: if there's some corner of the Internet where people like
23:07
Speaker 4: have some conspiracy about how, like Cole Robbie is actually
23:10
Speaker 4: an alien plant that came on an asteroid or something.
23:13
Speaker 2: I mean, that would be really fun.
23:16
Speaker 4: Let's start it. Let's start it.
23:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Robbie was brought to us by the Enceladusians,
23:23
Speaker 1: and we should thank them every Thanksgiving for this contribution.
23:27
Speaker 4: No, no, no, We're not going to join the ranks of
23:29
Speaker 4: other quote unquote natural science podcasts that just deal in
23:33
Speaker 4: speculation and nonsense. We are hard hitting science here, so no,
23:36
Speaker 4: this is fascinating, actual science. So you're telling us that
23:38
Speaker 4: all of these things have what the same common ancestor,
23:41
Speaker 4: or there's still technically the same species, Like I know
23:44
Speaker 4: that great Dane and the chihuahua can mix. I know,
23:47
Speaker 4: for example, because my dog is a mixture of German
23:49
Speaker 4: shepherd in chihuahua, which is a fascinating combination. Could you
23:53
Speaker 4: today take like Brussels sprouse and mate them with cole robbie?
23:57
Speaker 2: Yes, what I think?
23:59
Speaker 4: I was sure you were going to say, you can.
24:00
Speaker 2: Get like broccolini, which is a mix between.
24:03
Speaker 1: Broccoli and Chinese broccoli, and it's just like it's a
24:06
Speaker 1: leafier sort of thing. And so yes, you can cross
24:10
Speaker 1: these different brasca Oleracea species. They still are fertile together,
24:14
Speaker 1: so they are still the same species. And there's some
24:16
Speaker 1: closely related species that also make some other foody things
24:20
Speaker 1: that we eat. So this is like a genus of
24:23
Speaker 1: plants that were you know, really happy about. I guess,
24:26
Speaker 1: depending on how much you like your vegetables. A difficult
24:29
Speaker 1: question that scientists were trying to answer is like where
24:33
Speaker 1: did this originally come from? And it was more difficult
24:36
Speaker 1: to solve than you might expect. So, like, if you
24:38
Speaker 1: go to lots of different places like the UK, you
24:42
Speaker 1: find what looks like the original version of this plant,
24:45
Speaker 1: so like, you know, it doesn't look like a cabbage,
24:47
Speaker 1: It like looks like the original wild version that we
24:50
Speaker 1: then did all this selection on.
24:52
Speaker 2: And what they think happened was.
24:53
Speaker 1: That actually it started from the Mediterranean and then we
24:57
Speaker 1: domesticated it, and then we had it in gardens like
25:01
Speaker 1: throughout the world, and then it escaped from our gardens.
25:04
Speaker 1: And so there's a bunch of lineages that they say
25:07
Speaker 1: went feral, which was like a thing I only thought
25:10
Speaker 1: happened to animals, but apparently plants can also go feral.
25:14
Speaker 1: And when you're not regularly doing this selection and trying
25:17
Speaker 1: to pick the ones that make the best cabbages every
25:19
Speaker 1: single time, I guess over time it goes back to
25:21
Speaker 1: looking like the wild version did.
25:24
Speaker 4: Because now natural selection is applying its own influence. Yeah.
25:27
Speaker 1: Fascinating, Yeah exactly, and so it goes back to looking
25:30
Speaker 1: like the wild version. And so through like a number
25:33
Speaker 1: of different genetic things, and also by trying to look
25:35
Speaker 1: at like historical records for when we were first talking
25:38
Speaker 1: about things that were called cabbages. The current theory is
25:42
Speaker 1: that it's probably from the Mediterranean initially and then it
25:44
Speaker 1: went feral everywhere else.
25:45
Speaker 4: Do we have examples of that in animals where we
25:48
Speaker 4: domesticated them and then they went feral again and sort
25:51
Speaker 4: of returned to their natural shape. I always wonder that
25:54
Speaker 4: about like coyotes. You know, our coyotes like domesticated dogs
25:58
Speaker 4: that escaped and became wild again.
26:00
Speaker 2: A good question.
26:00
Speaker 1: I don't think coyotes are domesticated dogs that went wild again.
26:04
Speaker 1: Pigeons were really popular animals for artificial selection for a
26:10
Speaker 1: really long time. They were like all these fancy pigeons,
26:13
Speaker 1: And anyone who's interested in that should read Rosemary Moscow's
26:16
Speaker 1: book about pigeons because she's amazing book. Maybe we should
26:19
Speaker 1: have her on the show to talk about pigeons at
26:20
Speaker 1: some point, definitely should. It wouldn't surprise me if a
26:23
Speaker 1: lot of pigeons that were domesticated went feral subsequently.
26:29
Speaker 2: Oh what about bores?
26:30
Speaker 1: Aren't there like pigs that were domesticated and then got
26:33
Speaker 1: released and now they're like in Texas.
26:36
Speaker 4: This like thirty to fifty wild hogs rampaging around Texas somewhere.
26:39
Speaker 1: I think that actually bores that were domesticated and then
26:42
Speaker 1: got out are a problem in some areas.
26:44
Speaker 2: I could be wrong about that.
26:45
Speaker 4: You know, and I think it's dingoes. I think it
26:47
Speaker 4: was not coyotes, but I think dingos in Australia might
26:50
Speaker 4: have once been domesticated. Really, we'll dig into that and
26:52
Speaker 4: look into it. But back to the topic of the
26:54
Speaker 4: Thanksgiving table. Were these things selected to be eaten with
26:58
Speaker 4: cheese or were people in doing these things even pre cheese.
27:01
Speaker 4: I mean, cheese is pretty ancient as well, right, Matt.
27:04
Speaker 1: You are asking all the questions I didn't prepare for.
27:08
Speaker 1: So you said that your family is all about fermenting
27:10
Speaker 1: and stuff, So maybe you know when was the first
27:13
Speaker 1: instance of cheese coming on a scene for humanity?
27:16
Speaker 4: I think they have records of cheese from like Mesopotamia.
27:19
Speaker 4: You know, people have been eating cheese basically since cattle
27:23
Speaker 4: have been domesticated, because you know, you take that milk
27:25
Speaker 4: and you've got to make it last a little longer.
27:28
Speaker 4: So yeah, cheese has been with us for a long
27:30
Speaker 4: long time. I think maybe ten thousand years. But tell
27:33
Speaker 4: us a little bit more about how you take this
27:35
Speaker 4: plant and make the different varieties, like how do you
27:38
Speaker 4: take this crazy chewy kale like small leaf thing and
27:42
Speaker 4: make cabbage?
27:43
Speaker 1: So I was interested in this question, and to be honest,
27:46
Speaker 1: plant parts, I kind of fell asleep during a lot
27:49
Speaker 1: of the plant physiology stuff. And I've got some plant
27:52
Speaker 1: friends who are just like, we're taking your ecologist card away,
27:56
Speaker 1: and that's totally reasonable.
27:57
Speaker 4: I just remember stamen and that's the only thing I
27:59
Speaker 4: learned in ninth grade biology, and that was the last
28:01
Speaker 4: biology class I took.
28:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's also pistols and that's exciting. But I found
28:06
Speaker 1: this website called Botanist in the Kitchen and it's botanists
28:09
Speaker 1: who are also interested about like telling you about how
28:11
Speaker 1: to cook all these cool plants. And so they were
28:14
Speaker 1: saying that the way you get from kale to cabbage,
28:16
Speaker 1: so kale is like leafy, and so if you take
28:20
Speaker 1: the leaves that are like growing along the stem and
28:22
Speaker 1: you lessen the distance between them, so now you've got
28:25
Speaker 1: lots of leaves that are very close to each other,
28:27
Speaker 1: and you start getting like the stem a little bit thicker,
28:30
Speaker 1: and what's called like the marra stem at the top
28:32
Speaker 1: also gets a little bit thicker.
28:33
Speaker 2: Then now you've got something that looks like cabbage.
28:36
Speaker 1: So now you've got those leaves, you got more of them,
28:37
Speaker 1: the closer together in a bigger stem, and now you've
28:40
Speaker 1: got cabbage.
28:42
Speaker 4: That's fascinating because the way you describe it, you sort
28:44
Speaker 4: of have to have cabbage in your mind to understand
28:47
Speaker 4: where you're going. It's like this is somebody's target, but
28:49
Speaker 4: with somebody, just like I wonder what happens if you
28:52
Speaker 4: do this to this plant, Like this is just random
28:54
Speaker 4: exploration of like changing this plant and other stuff and
28:57
Speaker 4: seeing if it gets crunchy and delicious. That's incredible.
29:00
Speaker 2: I don't think we know.
29:01
Speaker 1: I can imagine someone being like, oh man, this one
29:03
Speaker 1: has a lot more stems with leaves on it that
29:06
Speaker 1: I can eat.
29:07
Speaker 2: That's great.
29:07
Speaker 1: And they just happened to be like shorter distances between
29:10
Speaker 1: the stems. I don't know that the goal was we
29:12
Speaker 1: want cabbage. I think the goal was just like more
29:14
Speaker 1: leaves closer together. That's great, and then it kind of
29:17
Speaker 1: became cabbage.
29:18
Speaker 4: Or maybe some of these things were accidental, right, You
29:20
Speaker 4: had a weird mutation and weird mixture of two things
29:23
Speaker 4: accidentally and created something like ooh, this is good. Looks
29:26
Speaker 4: called cabbage, yeah, could be, Yeah, fascinating.
29:30
Speaker 1: So broccoli and cauliflower are about sort of modifying what's
29:33
Speaker 1: happening with the inflorescences, which are flowers that grow together.
29:37
Speaker 1: And so if you've ever left broccoli or cauliflower in
29:40
Speaker 1: your refrigerator for too long, you might see these like
29:42
Speaker 1: yellow flowers opening up. So what you try to do is,
29:46
Speaker 1: like you get a lot of these flowering parts, you
29:47
Speaker 1: get them to grow really close together, and then you
29:50
Speaker 1: cut it before it starts to actually flower. And that's
29:54
Speaker 1: broccoli and cauliflower as far as I know, this one,
29:57
Speaker 1: I think started in Italy around the sixteenth century. It's
30:01
Speaker 1: like a little bit newer, and it required some complicated
30:05
Speaker 1: genetic mutations. Maybe we have a little bit of a
30:07
Speaker 1: better handle on what happened here with broccoli. But I
30:10
Speaker 1: think broccoli is probably my favorite of all of these.
30:15
Speaker 1: I just feel like that's an important thing to mention.
30:17
Speaker 4: What about you, how much cheese does it take before
30:21
Speaker 4: you enjoy broccoli? Will you eat broccoli pure without cheese?
30:24
Speaker 1: I will eat broccoli with some soy sauce and without cheese,
30:29
Speaker 1: And the same for Brussels sprouts with some spices. But
30:34
Speaker 1: you know, everything is better with cheese. Let's be honest.
30:36
Speaker 1: What about you, what's your favorite of these?
30:38
Speaker 4: I will eat broccoli raw. You know, chopped broccoli is
30:41
Speaker 4: delicious and a salad. It's crunchy, it's got a little
30:44
Speaker 4: bit of a bite to it, as long as the
30:45
Speaker 4: chunks aren't too big. It's really fantastic. Raw kale. I'm
30:49
Speaker 4: still learning to love, you know. My wife's a big
30:51
Speaker 4: fan of kale. I know kale is supposed to be
30:53
Speaker 4: really good for you, but there's just no way in
30:55
Speaker 4: which kale becomes delicious. Actually, no, I take that back.
30:57
Speaker 4: Somebody once made kale chips. Put them in the oven,
31:00
Speaker 4: roast them at high temperature. They get really crunchy, but
31:03
Speaker 4: not very oily. Kale chips are good. But I'm a
31:06
Speaker 4: fan of all these things. Brussels sprouts, I think are
31:08
Speaker 4: probably my favorite, which is funny because I remember my
31:11
Speaker 4: dad cooking Brussels sprouts when I was a kid, and
31:14
Speaker 4: my memory is that it was the most disgusting aroma
31:17
Speaker 4: I could imagine, Like when he cooked Brussels sprouts, I
31:20
Speaker 4: had to leave the house. It was revolting. And now
31:23
Speaker 4: I totally love them. And so it's bizarre how you
31:26
Speaker 4: developed these tastes, like why did it take decades to
31:28
Speaker 4: learn to love Brussels sprouse?
31:30
Speaker 1: Actually I was talking to Zach about this this morning,
31:32
Speaker 1: and I didn't go and verify this by finding a
31:34
Speaker 1: scientific paper, but he was saying that part of why
31:37
Speaker 1: people our age like Brussels sprouts now but we hated
31:39
Speaker 1: it when we're kids, is that actually there has been
31:41
Speaker 1: some artificial selection for flavor, and it has gotten less
31:45
Speaker 1: bitter and stuff over time, and so part of it
31:48
Speaker 1: maybe is that where adults are, we're cooking it better
31:50
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, but it might actually just taste better,
31:52
Speaker 1: which I feel like also happened to apples in our lifetime.
31:56
Speaker 4: But that's terrible because I've been congratulating myself for learning
32:00
Speaker 4: to love my dad's Brussels sprouts for a long time,
32:02
Speaker 4: and now you're saying I haven't even accomplished that. I'm
32:04
Speaker 4: just eating like baby version of Brussels sprouts, like candy version.
32:08
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I took that away from you, but you know,
32:10
Speaker 1: I feel like, in general, you know, maybe you should
32:11
Speaker 1: give your dad some more credit, like call him and
32:13
Speaker 1: be like, I'm sorry, your Brussels sprouts were probably as
32:16
Speaker 1: good as they could have been.
32:17
Speaker 4: No, actually, he's British and he cooked them the British
32:19
Speaker 4: way of like boiling them to death, and so that
32:22
Speaker 4: probably also contributed to their disgustingness.
32:24
Speaker 1: No, no, yeah, you should have emancipated yourself at age seventeen.
32:28
Speaker 2: That's unacceptable.
32:30
Speaker 4: But I agree almost all of these are better with cheese.
32:33
Speaker 4: Cauliflower incredible with cheese, absolutely broccoli. It's all the dishes.
32:38
Speaker 4: And I hope everybody out there had a really good
32:40
Speaker 4: helping of healthy vegetables to go along with all their pie.
32:44
Speaker 2: I think that's important.
32:46
Speaker 1: And now I think we should return to Turkey, but
32:50
Speaker 1: now take a physics turn on things, and so we're
32:53
Speaker 1: going to take a break, and then I'm kicking the
32:56
Speaker 1: control of the conversation over to you.
32:58
Speaker 4: All right, all right, we are back, and I hope
33:17
Speaker 4: you've had a good full meal. You're done crunching on
33:20
Speaker 4: your turkey wings and slathering your broccoli with geese, because
33:24
Speaker 4: we're going to take this conversation away from the biology
33:27
Speaker 4: of Thanksgiving and talk about the physics of turkey.
33:30
Speaker 2: Hope you haven't had too much trip to fan.
33:35
Speaker 4: A big part of the Thanksgiving experience is cooking a turkey,
33:38
Speaker 4: and most people don't cook turkeys throughout the year, and
33:42
Speaker 4: so when Thanksgiving comes along, you look up that turkey
33:44
Speaker 4: recipe and you invariably do it around two in the afternoon.
33:47
Speaker 4: You're like, Okay, what do I need to do to
33:48
Speaker 4: this turkey? And then you look at the recipe and
33:51
Speaker 4: it says cook for six hours and you're like, oh, no,
33:54
Speaker 4: I've started too late, or my turkey is still frozen.
33:57
Speaker 1: I think I've had three or four instances in my
33:59
Speaker 1: life where the plan was to eat it for and
34:01
Speaker 1: then we ate it like nine because it was like
34:04
Speaker 1: the turkey the center was still frozen exactly.
34:07
Speaker 4: And you can blame that on people's planning skills, but
34:09
Speaker 4: really the problem is physics. Physics is the reason that
34:13
Speaker 4: turkeys take so long to cook.
34:16
Speaker 2: What are the electrons doing wrong?
34:18
Speaker 4: Blame the electrons, they're so negative they are, so to
34:22
Speaker 4: think about cooking a turkey from a physics point of view,
34:25
Speaker 4: of course, first thing we do is we assume the
34:27
Speaker 4: turkey is just a sphere. Right to naturally simplify the problem,
34:32
Speaker 4: assume a spherical turkey.
34:33
Speaker 1: This is the go to joke with ecologists was that
34:35
Speaker 1: physicals will like assume a spherical cat anyway, So all right,
34:39
Speaker 1: we're spherical turkey.
34:40
Speaker 4: But here it's actually useful because you can't think about
34:43
Speaker 4: all the wiggles and weird shapes of a turkey because
34:45
Speaker 4: the crucial thing to think about when you're thinking about
34:47
Speaker 4: the physics of cooking a turkey is how to get
34:50
Speaker 4: the core of the turkey above a certain temperature, because
34:53
Speaker 4: that's what cook means. Like, you don't want to eat
34:55
Speaker 4: the turkey when the core temperature is below about one
34:58
Speaker 4: hundred and sixty five fahrenheit because and this is a
35:01
Speaker 4: little bit of biology, what happens when you cook is
35:03
Speaker 4: you're raising the temperature, you're denaturing the proteins. You're also
35:06
Speaker 4: killing all the microbes, etc. But really what's happening is
35:09
Speaker 4: the transformation of those proteins. That's why it goes from
35:12
Speaker 4: like gouy and translucent to like white and opaque, because
35:15
Speaker 4: you've transformed these molecules, have broken them down. Did I
35:19
Speaker 4: get the biology right there, Kelly?
35:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds good and delicious and delicious.
35:23
Speaker 4: So you have this object. The whole thing is cold.
35:26
Speaker 4: It starts at like fifty degrees fahrenheit or whatever. The
35:29
Speaker 4: temperature is of your fridge, and you have to raise
35:31
Speaker 4: the whole thing up to one hundred and sixty five
35:33
Speaker 4: degrees fahrenheit. But the problem is you can't inject heat
35:36
Speaker 4: into the center of it. I mean, you could microwave
35:38
Speaker 4: your turkey, but I don't recommend it. If you're roasting
35:41
Speaker 4: in an oven, you apply heat only to the outside. Right,
35:44
Speaker 4: Your oven is like a big bath of hot air.
35:46
Speaker 4: You put the turkey in the oven, The oven heats
35:49
Speaker 4: the outside of the turkey. It doesn't directly heat the
35:52
Speaker 4: inside of the turkey. So from a physics point of view,
35:55
Speaker 4: the reason that it takes so long to cook your
35:58
Speaker 4: turkey is that it takes a while for the heat
36:00
Speaker 4: to propagate from the outside of the turkey to the
36:03
Speaker 4: center of the turkey.
36:04
Speaker 1: So this is where we reveal to our listeners that
36:06
Speaker 1: I don't go in the kitchen excepting eat the food
36:09
Speaker 1: that Zack has been cooking. And you can't speed that
36:11
Speaker 1: process up by turning the heat up too much, because
36:13
Speaker 1: then you're going to burn the outside.
36:14
Speaker 2: Is that right?
36:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. What you want is an evenly cooked turkey.
36:17
Speaker 4: You want the center to be one sixty five, You
36:18
Speaker 4: want the outside to be one sixty five. Now, the
36:20
Speaker 4: oven temperature is like three P fifty or so, and
36:23
Speaker 4: so when the core is one sixty five, the surface
36:26
Speaker 4: is going to be hotter. And so if you make
36:29
Speaker 4: the temperature of the oven hotter nine hundred degrees or whatever,
36:33
Speaker 4: then you're going to cook the outside faster. The inside
36:35
Speaker 4: will get to one sixty five and it will get
36:38
Speaker 4: there faster. But when it does, the outside is going
36:40
Speaker 4: to be even hotter. It's going to be totally burned.
36:43
Speaker 4: And so the best way to cook a turkey slowly.
36:45
Speaker 4: This is why, like a souved, you put the thing
36:47
Speaker 4: in a water bath like whatever the target temperature is,
36:51
Speaker 4: and you just wait forever until the whole thing comes
36:55
Speaker 4: up to that temperature. And so what's happening here is
36:58
Speaker 4: diffusion of heat. The energy is spreading out from the
37:02
Speaker 4: oven to the turkey, or from the water bath in
37:04
Speaker 4: the case of a souved into the object. And that's physics.
37:08
Speaker 4: It's really basic, simple core physics that we see actually
37:11
Speaker 4: in lots of places in the universe.
37:13
Speaker 1: So does a tur ducan take longer to cook because
37:17
Speaker 1: it's more packed in the center and there's more you
37:20
Speaker 1: need to heat through.
37:21
Speaker 4: Yes, you're violating my spherical turkey assumption here, Kelly. But yes,
37:25
Speaker 4: it's helpful when you cook a turkey not to stuff
37:28
Speaker 4: it either with stuffing or other birds, or even cauliflower
37:31
Speaker 4: or cheese, because you're creating more mass that needs to
37:34
Speaker 4: cook and you're making it more of a sphere. If
37:37
Speaker 4: the air can get into the inside, into the chest cavity,
37:40
Speaker 4: that they can directly heat the inside of the turkey
37:42
Speaker 4: and it goes faster.
37:43
Speaker 1: Okay, So if you've got that like chest cavity, that's
37:46
Speaker 1: how the air gets in, you can start heating from
37:48
Speaker 1: the inside. Could you make the chest cavity even bigger
37:52
Speaker 1: or like cut the turkey in half?
37:55
Speaker 2: Why do I have to wait so long?
37:58
Speaker 4: Exactly? So if we understand the details the physics here,
38:01
Speaker 4: that will help us think about how to organize our
38:03
Speaker 4: turkey to make it cook faster. And so the way
38:05
Speaker 4: I think about the physics is you have this layer
38:07
Speaker 4: of hot air that's touching the surface of the turkey,
38:11
Speaker 4: and microscopically, what's happening is that the air particles are
38:15
Speaker 4: hitting the turkey. Right, the air particles are moving fast.
38:18
Speaker 4: That's what it means for air to be hot, right,
38:20
Speaker 4: those particles have a lot of energy. They bounce off
38:23
Speaker 4: the turkey, and they deposit some of that energy. They
38:25
Speaker 4: hit the turkey at high speed, they come off with
38:27
Speaker 4: less speed, and that speed has now gone to like
38:29
Speaker 4: the vibration energy of the molecules of turkey. So you
38:33
Speaker 4: have this layer of hot air that's heating the outside
38:36
Speaker 4: layer of the turkey. So then how does the inside
38:38
Speaker 4: of the turkey get hot? Well, that now hot layer
38:41
Speaker 4: the outside of the turkey is heating up the next layer,
38:44
Speaker 4: and that warms up and that layer heats up the
38:46
Speaker 4: next layer. So the air actually only cooks the most
38:49
Speaker 4: outside layer of the turkey. The rest of the turkey
38:52
Speaker 4: is cooked by the rest of the turkey. So you
38:54
Speaker 4: have like layer N is cooked by layer N minus one.
38:58
Speaker 4: Like imagine your turkey is a series of layers. Each
39:01
Speaker 4: layer is heated up by the layer outside of it
39:04
Speaker 4: that's a little bit.
39:04
Speaker 1: Hotter than it unless you have nothing in the center
39:08
Speaker 1: of the turkey, and then you're getting a little heating
39:10
Speaker 1: from the inside going out.
39:13
Speaker 4: That's right. And in the case of a spherical turkey,
39:15
Speaker 4: it's simplest because all these layers are just spheres, and
39:17
Speaker 4: you're only cooked by the one outside of it. But
39:19
Speaker 4: even in a non spherical turkey, still you have a
39:21
Speaker 4: layer of the turkey and the outside that's touching the air,
39:24
Speaker 4: and then an inner layer, and another layer and another layers,
39:26
Speaker 4: just that each of these layers is no longer a sphere,
39:29
Speaker 4: and that takes time, Like you can't instantly take energy
39:33
Speaker 4: from the air and put it into your turkey or
39:35
Speaker 4: from the turkey into the next layer of turkey. There's
39:37
Speaker 4: a mathematical equation that describes this. It's called the heat equation,
39:42
Speaker 4: and it's fascinating because you see this equation everywhere in physics.
39:46
Speaker 4: This is one of the things I love about physics
39:48
Speaker 4: is that there are only a few equations and they
39:50
Speaker 4: describe so many different things. We talk in this podcast
39:53
Speaker 4: a lot about waves, how waves describe the motion of
39:56
Speaker 4: the ocean and ripples in the electromagnetic field and ont
40:00
Speaker 4: and field theory, like wave equation is everywhere. That's because
40:03
Speaker 4: it's very mathematically simple. It's a second time derivative related
40:07
Speaker 4: to a second spatial derivative, and that's it. Any condition
40:09
Speaker 4: you have where those two things are coupled, the time
40:12
Speaker 4: derivative and the spatial derivative, meaning how fast things are
40:15
Speaker 4: changing over time and how fast things are changing over space,
40:19
Speaker 4: then you're going to get a wave equation, and you're
40:20
Speaker 4: going to wave like behavior. The heat equation is very
40:24
Speaker 4: similar to the wave equation. It's just a different derivative.
40:26
Speaker 4: It's one time derivative instead of two, and so you
40:29
Speaker 4: see this everywhere. The heat equation describes how heat flows
40:33
Speaker 4: through a turkey. It also describes how water will soak
40:36
Speaker 4: through cloth, or any time you have diffusion or osmosis.
40:40
Speaker 4: It describes like how salt will spread through something, or
40:43
Speaker 4: how your cream will spread through your coffee. The heat
40:46
Speaker 4: equation describes anytime something is spreading through something else. The
40:51
Speaker 4: physics of turkeys is actually like the physics of the universe.
40:54
Speaker 4: It's really kind of incredible, and.
40:56
Speaker 1: I think that you should definitely push the conversation at
40:59
Speaker 1: the family dinner table away from politics and towards more
41:03
Speaker 1: philosophical topics like this.
41:05
Speaker 4: And so the reason a turkey takes so much longer
41:07
Speaker 4: to cook than a chicken, sort of surprisingly longer, is
41:10
Speaker 4: also because of the dimensionality of space itself, right, Like,
41:14
Speaker 4: we live in three dimensional space, and that means that
41:17
Speaker 4: as your turkey or your bird gets larger, the volume
41:21
Speaker 4: of the bird goes up by the radius cubed Right,
41:24
Speaker 4: the area for the volume of a sphere hasn't R
41:27
Speaker 4: cubed in it, but the surface area, the way you
41:30
Speaker 4: get heat into it, only goes up by R squared.
41:33
Speaker 4: So as your turkey gets bigger and bigger and bigger,
41:36
Speaker 4: the ratio of surface area to volume gets smaller, and
41:40
Speaker 4: so it's harder to heat that turkey. This is why,
41:43
Speaker 4: for example, elephants get so hot because they're huge, have
41:46
Speaker 4: a lot of volume in a relatively little surface area.
41:49
Speaker 4: And I don't know if it's a myth or a factoid,
41:51
Speaker 4: and that's why elephants have such big ears to increase
41:54
Speaker 4: their surface area. I have to dig into that. But
41:56
Speaker 4: it's definitely true that as something gets larger, it's volume
42:00
Speaker 4: increases faster than its surface area, and so it's harder
42:03
Speaker 4: to cool or harder to heat. That's core physics.
42:06
Speaker 1: So if you have a bigger family, you've got to
42:08
Speaker 1: get up earlier in the day to start.
42:10
Speaker 4: Your turkey exactly, And that's why a turkey takes much
42:13
Speaker 4: longer to cook than like the equivalent mass of chickens.
42:16
Speaker 4: If you took like five chickens and you cook them,
42:18
Speaker 4: you could cook them a lot faster because there's a
42:20
Speaker 4: lot more surface area for the same amount of meat.
42:23
Speaker 4: And that's why people invented techniques like spatchcocking your turkey.
42:27
Speaker 4: This is where you basically break your turkey in half
42:29
Speaker 4: and flatten it. You remove the backbone and you break
42:32
Speaker 4: the chest cavity because this just allows the air more access.
42:35
Speaker 4: It increases the surface area of your turkey, which cooks
42:38
Speaker 4: it faster.
42:39
Speaker 1: So why doesn't everybody do that? Is it because it
42:42
Speaker 1: doesn't look as nice in the pictures.
42:44
Speaker 4: It doesn't look as nice. Yeah, okay when it comes out,
42:47
Speaker 4: it doesn't have that like holiday turkey kind of sheen
42:50
Speaker 4: to it. I think it's much tastier. It cooks faster,
42:53
Speaker 4: and it keeps the breast to thine, the ring all
42:55
Speaker 4: at good temperature. So I'm a big fan of spatchcocking.
42:57
Speaker 4: We do it every year.
42:58
Speaker 1: I think every family needs eye they're a sower or
43:01
Speaker 1: a surgeon, so that after you spatchcock it, you can
43:03
Speaker 1: like stitch it back together for the photos and then
43:06
Speaker 1: it's faster and it looks nice.
43:08
Speaker 4: Well, plastic turkey surgery, huh, you think we would do
43:11
Speaker 4: that in Orange County. We're big fans of a parents
43:13
Speaker 4: down here.
43:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, well maybe that's where it'll start.
43:15
Speaker 1: So sometimes people put turkeys in oil, and that is
43:21
Speaker 1: a big cause of fires around Thanksgiving, I believe, so
43:24
Speaker 1: do that carefully, very dangerous, and that makes it faster.
43:28
Speaker 2: Right, Why is that faster?
43:29
Speaker 4: That's right? If you deep fry your turkey, it takes
43:32
Speaker 4: like five minutes per pound as opposed to like fifteen
43:35
Speaker 4: minutes per pound. And the reason is just that oil
43:39
Speaker 4: transmits heat better than air, and so heat flows faster
43:43
Speaker 4: into the turkey and the oil gets in all the
43:45
Speaker 4: crevices and stuff like that.
43:47
Speaker 1: Ooh, and so as an efficient person, I should start
43:50
Speaker 1: deep frying everything.
43:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, I suppose. So if you really want to gain
43:55
Speaker 4: some weight on Thanksgiving and you want to do it fast,
43:57
Speaker 4: that's a way to do it.
43:58
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, maybe we'll spashcock instead.
44:01
Speaker 4: But to double down on the physics of Thanksgiving, I
44:04
Speaker 4: was thinking about whether there is a nuclear connection here.
44:08
Speaker 4: Nuclear power is physics, and you know, we use a
44:10
Speaker 4: lot of energy on Thanksgiving. We're cooking our turkey, it's
44:12
Speaker 4: in the oven for hours. I was thinking about, like,
44:15
Speaker 4: where does that energy come from? And what is the
44:17
Speaker 4: physics that provides the energy we use to cook our turkey?
44:21
Speaker 2: All right?
44:21
Speaker 1: So usually when you get excited about an idea, it
44:24
Speaker 1: means my kids are probably in some sort of trouble.
44:26
Speaker 2: How are you going to be cooking the turkey this time?
44:29
Speaker 4: So I wanted to start from a fairly safe direction,
44:32
Speaker 4: which is nuclear reactors. And I was thinking how many
44:35
Speaker 4: turkeys could you cook with a nuclear reactor? So I
44:37
Speaker 4: did a little calculation here, and your oven it's on
44:41
Speaker 4: for like three and a half hours, but your oven
44:44
Speaker 4: pretty much uses around two hundred and forty watts. That's
44:46
Speaker 4: like how much energy it takes to heat of that
44:49
Speaker 4: air to keep it hot. And that doesn't actually depend
44:52
Speaker 4: on like what you put in it. You just turn
44:54
Speaker 4: your oven on, it's going to use around two hundred
44:56
Speaker 4: and forty watts. I mean, you put like an ice
44:58
Speaker 4: sculpture in there, it's going to take a little bit
44:59
Speaker 4: more energy, but in general, you just have it on.
45:02
Speaker 4: That's how much energy it costs. So then you can
45:05
Speaker 4: think about how many ovens a nuclear reactor could run simultaneously. Okay,
45:10
Speaker 4: and a modern nuclear reactor runs at about a gigawatt,
45:14
Speaker 4: so a billion watts. A wat is jeweles per second.
45:17
Speaker 4: So this is a rate of energy, which means that
45:20
Speaker 4: you can calculate fairly easily that a single nuclear power
45:23
Speaker 4: plant can run around four hundred and twenty thousand ovens simultaneously. Wow.
45:28
Speaker 4: So if you took a nuclear power plant and you
45:31
Speaker 4: wired it directly to people's ovens, that's all you did
45:34
Speaker 4: with it for three and a half hours on Thanksgiving afternoon,
45:37
Speaker 4: you could cook almost a half million turkeys with a
45:40
Speaker 4: single power plant, which is kind of incredible.
45:42
Speaker 2: Sorry, turkey population, that's true.
45:47
Speaker 4: Really turning off our turkey listeners. Huh yeah, but you
45:49
Speaker 4: know we're sacrificing some turkeys. But you know, one turkey
45:52
Speaker 4: feeds like twelve people or so overall, this is like
45:56
Speaker 4: five million people can have turkey cooked by a single
46:00
Speaker 4: nuclear power plant. It's incredible how productive these plants are.
46:03
Speaker 1: All Right, I am pro nuclear power, and so I'm
46:06
Speaker 1: feeling good about this. Are you going to amp things
46:09
Speaker 1: up to something I'm less excited about?
46:11
Speaker 4: Well, then I was thinking nuclear power plants. Okay, that's
46:13
Speaker 4: kind of vanilla. What if we try to cook our
46:16
Speaker 4: turkeys with nuclear bombs instead?
46:19
Speaker 2: There you go, uh huh, and This.
46:21
Speaker 4: Is actually a homework problem I assigned in one of
46:23
Speaker 4: my thermal physics class to think about like the energy
46:26
Speaker 4: required to cook a turkey and the energy released by
46:28
Speaker 4: a nuclear mom So I did another calculation which was
46:32
Speaker 4: to think not just how much energy does it require
46:34
Speaker 4: to run an oven, but what about the actual energy
46:36
Speaker 4: it takes to raise the temperature of the turkey. So
46:40
Speaker 4: you can think about the turkey as a combination of
46:42
Speaker 4: water and protein. And I found some measurements online that
46:45
Speaker 4: said that the specific heat of a turkey, that's how
46:48
Speaker 4: much energy it takes to raise a gram of turkey
46:51
Speaker 4: by one degree, is about two point eight jewels per
46:55
Speaker 4: gram centigrade. And so from that you can calculate like
46:59
Speaker 4: how much energy it takes to take a whole turkey
47:02
Speaker 4: and raise it about one hundred degrees And that's like
47:04
Speaker 4: one point six gigajewels. So if you could take that
47:07
Speaker 4: energy and just sort of like inject it into your
47:10
Speaker 4: turkey somehow, you would raise it up about one hundred degrees,
47:13
Speaker 4: which is what you need to do to cook it.
47:15
Speaker 2: How big is this turkey?
47:16
Speaker 4: This is a fifteen pounder, So yeah, you're making a
47:19
Speaker 4: meal for the neighborhood.
47:20
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, well it depends on your family. I
47:22
Speaker 1: think my daughter and I could put down a fifteen pounder.
47:25
Speaker 1: My husband's a vegetarian. My son doesn't eat meat.
47:27
Speaker 4: Wait, so Zack's a vegetarian, but he makes the turkey
47:29
Speaker 4: on Thanksgiving.
47:30
Speaker 1: Oh heck no, no, no, no no. He cooked meat once
47:33
Speaker 1: and turned green. This is when I was pregnant and.
47:36
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, can you please make me a euro?
47:38
Speaker 1: And I've never asked him since in are like almost
47:40
Speaker 1: twenty years together now. But no, my sister in law
47:43
Speaker 1: is amazing and makes the turkey, or my dad.
47:45
Speaker 4: So one point six giga jewels, it's not like a
47:48
Speaker 4: number we think about a lot, so I tried to
47:50
Speaker 4: translate it into something more practical. If you had like
47:53
Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty D cell batteries and you ran
47:57
Speaker 4: them for an hour, that's about one point six giga jewels,
48:00
Speaker 4: So you could like cook a turkey with about one
48:02
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty d segn matteries, which I don't know.
48:05
Speaker 4: Maybe that'd be useful information for somebody in the end
48:07
Speaker 4: times when they're trying to have a Thanksgiving of yesteryear.
48:10
Speaker 1: If you raid the Amazon warehouse and find a big
48:13
Speaker 1: store of D batteries like we're on for Thanksgiving.
48:18
Speaker 4: Yeah, you made your turkey like a resistor in some
48:20
Speaker 4: crazy circuit or whatever. But the other alternative if you're
48:23
Speaker 4: in the end times and there are nuclear bombs going off,
48:25
Speaker 4: is you could try to use the energy released by
48:27
Speaker 4: those nuclear bomb drops to cook your turkey. And so
48:30
Speaker 4: a nuclear blast has a few million gigajewels of energy released. Wow,
48:36
Speaker 4: So that means that there's enough energy in one nuclear
48:39
Speaker 4: bomb dropping to cook about a million turkeys.
48:41
Speaker 1: That would feed millions of people, right, so that you
48:45
Speaker 1: could be like president of like a community with all
48:48
Speaker 1: of these turkeys that you're passing out.
48:50
Speaker 2: You can be the queen of the end times or
48:52
Speaker 2: the king of the end times.
48:54
Speaker 4: That's right now. One thing we have in factored in
48:56
Speaker 4: here is like how you get the energy from the
48:58
Speaker 4: nuclear blast into your turkey. We talked year about like
49:00
Speaker 4: slowly cooking your turkey. You know, put your turkey on
49:03
Speaker 4: a stick and hold it up to the nuclear bomb drop,
49:06
Speaker 4: and it's gonna get fried, like it's going to get blasted.
49:09
Speaker 4: Probably you're gonna end up with like a cold core
49:11
Speaker 4: and a totally crisp outside, so there's a challenge there
49:14
Speaker 4: and finding the right distance, and you know, to really
49:17
Speaker 4: be efficient and to cook like all those millions of turkeys,
49:20
Speaker 4: you really need to like build a spherical shell of
49:23
Speaker 4: turkeys that's around the bomb blast so they all capture
49:26
Speaker 4: that energy. Imagine like a dice and sphere around the sun,
49:29
Speaker 4: but now you have like a turkey sphere around the
49:31
Speaker 4: nuclear bombing.
49:32
Speaker 1: I'm starting to feel like maybe even during the apocalypse,
49:35
Speaker 1: there's better things you could do with your time. Also,
49:37
Speaker 1: i feel like you're a strategy of holding it on
49:39
Speaker 1: a stick and it fries the front but doesn't cook.
49:43
Speaker 1: That's probably not good for the people either. I think
49:45
Speaker 1: maybe you shouldn't be king in the end times.
49:48
Speaker 4: I've never claimed to have any useful skills for the
49:50
Speaker 4: end times. You know, particle physicists. They're the kind of
49:52
Speaker 4: thing you see in society when times are good, you know,
49:55
Speaker 4: not in the lean times. So we don't spend energy
49:58
Speaker 4: on particle physics in a lean time. So I'm hoping
50:02
Speaker 4: the civilization crashes after I pass off from this mortal coil.
50:06
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping none of your kids decide to take
50:08
Speaker 1: on the family profession. And because if they're microbiologists, they
50:11
Speaker 1: might be okay.
50:12
Speaker 4: But well, you know, when my dad retired from the lab,
50:15
Speaker 4: he took up blacksmithing, came Annville and a forge and
50:18
Speaker 4: in the garage and he like made his own tools
50:21
Speaker 4: and weapons, and so he would definitely be a useful
50:24
Speaker 4: guy to know in the end times. But not me.
50:26
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, maybe when you retire he can teach
50:28
Speaker 1: you some of that stuff.
50:31
Speaker 2: That would be good.
50:32
Speaker 4: He probably forced me to choke down. He's discussing Brussels
50:34
Speaker 4: sprouts first.
50:34
Speaker 2: Oh yep, no, no, good, forget it. It's not worth it.
50:37
Speaker 2: It's not worth it.
50:39
Speaker 4: Just call it quick, no amount of cheese.
50:43
Speaker 2: All right.
50:44
Speaker 1: Well, we have conveyed lots of not useful information today
50:47
Speaker 1: that will hopefully be fun to talk about.
50:50
Speaker 4: But there's science everywhere, and science in everyday life. There's
50:52
Speaker 4: even science in Thanksgiving. So thanks very much everybody for
50:56
Speaker 4: sharing your Thanksgiving with.
50:57
Speaker 1: Us, and we appreciate you, and weppreciate the questions and
51:01
Speaker 1: the input that we get from all of you, So
51:03
Speaker 1: please feel free to reach out to us at questions
51:05
Speaker 1: at Daniel and Kelly dot org.
51:08
Speaker 2: We are very thankful for all of you.
51:09
Speaker 4: I have agree. Thanksgiving everyone.
51:18
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51:22
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51:25
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51:27
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