Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #88 When Religious Leaders Fail

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#88 When Religious Leaders Fail · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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  Hey everyone,
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  Tim Wright here along with John Burgess,
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  the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
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  Today we're going to talk about something that impacts all of
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  us in different ways.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let me tell you a little story.
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  SPEAKER_00: Twenty-some years ago,
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  I received a letter from the Grand Canyon Synod of the
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  Evangelical Lutheran Church
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  SPEAKER_00: in America,
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  SPEAKER_00: of which I am a part as a pastor,
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  SPEAKER_00: Lutheran pastor there.
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  And the letter basically said that the bishop of the Grand
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  Canyon Synod had stepped
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  down because he had admitted to having an affair with a woman
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  who was not his wife.
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  SPEAKER_00: and it was really quite devastating.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had worked with him.
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  SPEAKER_00: Uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: he had been,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: played a role,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: in helping me and community church of joy,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: start community of grace.
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  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he had come and spoken to our staff at community church of joy.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I knew him somewhat.
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  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say we were friends,
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  but it was so disappointing to see a man that I really
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  respected a man of faith,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  fall into this situation,
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  this sin,
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  not maybe even fall into it,
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  just blatantly did it.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know all the details.
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  And so we thought we would talk today a bit about what happens
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  when religious leaders fail.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what brought this up
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  SPEAKER_00: is an author that I have referenced many times on this program,
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  SPEAKER_00: an author that both John and I deeply,
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  SPEAKER_00: deeply appreciate and have been impacted by,
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  SPEAKER_00: Philip Yancey,
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  SPEAKER_00: author of probably,
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  SPEAKER_00: in my mind,
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  SPEAKER_00: the best book ever written about grace outside of the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_00: He admitted to having an eight-year affair.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I want to say up front, we're not necessarily going to talk about
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know all the details.
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  His wife has released a statement about the trauma that she's
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  experiencing.
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  SPEAKER_00: She's going to stay with him.
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  SPEAKER_00: I will say,
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  SPEAKER_00: and this is probably all I'll say about the process for him,
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  he has stepped down from ministry and recognizes that he has
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  sort of disqualified
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  SPEAKER_00: himself as a leader right now.
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  SPEAKER_00: which doesn't happen often.
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  SPEAKER_00: When we see religious leaders fail,
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  they will often do everything that they possibly can to sort of
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  admit they did
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  SPEAKER_00: something wrong and yet just continue doing whatever they were doing,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether it's leaving the church they were in and going to another one,
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  SPEAKER_00: completely denying it.
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  SPEAKER_00: But to his credit,
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  SPEAKER_00: if there's any credit that should be given,
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  SPEAKER_00: he has stepped back from ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: realizing,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: that what he's done is wrong.
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  SPEAKER_00: However,
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  SPEAKER_00: In the wake of that,
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  SPEAKER_00: not only has he broken the heart of his wife and,
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  SPEAKER_00: of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: the family of the woman he was involved with and his kids and so on,
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  SPEAKER_00: those of us who are fans of his,
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  SPEAKER_00: who have been deeply impacted by his ministry and his books,
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  SPEAKER_00: find ourselves scratching our heads.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what do you do when people that you really trust,
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  SPEAKER_00: you really believe in,
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  SPEAKER_00: who've had an impact on your life,
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  SPEAKER_00: let you down.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to show your humanness,
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  SPEAKER_00: lose your temper or swear,
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  SPEAKER_00: or even say something that you regret saying.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's another thing to cheat on your spouse.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's another thing to be involved in acts of abuse,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether they're physical abuse,
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  SPEAKER_00: sexual abuse,
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  SPEAKER_00: verbal abuse.
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  And we've certainly seen a pattern of that in our religious
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  leaders as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna talk about that a little bit,
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  SPEAKER_00: talk a little bit about some of the things that people have said.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think the big question,
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  SPEAKER_00: John,
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  SPEAKER_00: that we're gonna talk about is where does grace come into all of this?
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: How does that work?
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  SPEAKER_00: And so on.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: but,
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  SPEAKER_00: but let's start kind of when you heard,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think I was the one who told you,
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  SPEAKER_00: uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: that,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: just kind of,
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  SPEAKER_00: what was your gut reaction when,
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  SPEAKER_00: when you heard it started doing your research?
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  well i you know as you mentioned tim i mean i i have been um
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  sort of a uh devotee
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  of philip yancey's several books and and not just his book on
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  grace but he's got a
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  um a great another great one called disappointment with god
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  that's helped me
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  personally through difficulties in my life multiple times it's
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  just one of those
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  books that you read and it's helpful and then a few years later
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  you read it reread
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  SPEAKER_03: it because it's helpful in new ways
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  SPEAKER_03: And certainly the book,
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  SPEAKER_03: What's So Amazing About Grace,
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  SPEAKER_03: certainly was hugely impactful and continues to be hugely impactful.
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  And so I think,
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  you know,
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  you first hear this stuff and you just feel so much sorrow.
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  SPEAKER_03: You just feel like...
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  SPEAKER_03: It's just very unwelcome news.
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  SPEAKER_03: And for me,
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  SPEAKER_03: one of my first reactions to this kind of thing,
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  SPEAKER_03: and you said in your intro,
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  SPEAKER_03: you said we see some of these patterns in our religious leaders.
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  SPEAKER_03: One of my reactions always is that this will get front page coverage,
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  and the 7 000 religious leaders who aren't having an affair
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  will get no coverage
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  that's right and and that i mean that part of that's just the
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  world we live in i
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  get that but it's also um you know it's it's the the humble
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  pastor who's not who's
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  trying his his or her best to do what's right does not get
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  coverage and so that
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  bothers me a lot but also you know i i feel bad for those folks
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  like you and i who
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  SPEAKER_03: really opened their heart to
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  SPEAKER_03: how Philip was pointing to Jesus, and then you feel that scar.
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  SPEAKER_03: You feel betrayed in some way.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  What made this one particularly interesting is the wrong word,
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  but I'm going to use it anyway.
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  SPEAKER_00: Interesting is that in the past,
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  SPEAKER_00: and this is going to sound really judgmental,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I'm going to say it anyway.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the past,
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  SPEAKER_00: the high-profile leaders who have failed spectacularly,
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  and we can go back and we think of Jimmy Swaggart or we think
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  of Jim Baker back in
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  SPEAKER_00: the 80s and the 90s,
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  SPEAKER_00: whenever it was.
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  SPEAKER_00: These leaders tended to be,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to say it,
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  SPEAKER_00: heavy-handed in their understanding of the gospel.
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  SPEAKER_00: Focused a lot on behavior.
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  SPEAKER_00: preached a lot against sin.
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  SPEAKER_00: We need to repent.
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  SPEAKER_00: We need to get our act together.
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  SPEAKER_00: Their presentation of God was always quite judgmental and frightening.
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  And then you see them committing the very sins that they were
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  preaching against.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you just call that rampant hypocrisy, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Philip Yancey was not that kind of guy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Philip Yancey did not write judgmental books.
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  SPEAKER_00: Philip Yancey did not write accusatory books.
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  Philip Yancey spoke to the reality of human beings who are in
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  desperate need of
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  SPEAKER_00: grace,
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  SPEAKER_00: live in a world of ungrace,
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  SPEAKER_00: to use his language,
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  and we have a God who comes to us in all of the messiness of
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  our lives and simply
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  SPEAKER_00: loves on us.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  And so this is not a guy who's been up pointing his fingers at
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  people and saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: get your act together and then turns around and fails.
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  This is a guy who really understood the depths of God's grace
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  and yet found
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  SPEAKER_00: himself,
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  SPEAKER_00: however,
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  SPEAKER_00: in some sort of situation where it wasn't enough in that moment.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And as I say that,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think immediately of the story of Adam and Eve,
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  SPEAKER_00: who lived in a similar situation,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: They had everything they wanted and needed.
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  SPEAKER_00: God was a constant companion to them, a friend, a father who loved them.
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  SPEAKER_00: They were immersed in God's grace.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yet, in spite of that...
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  SPEAKER_00: their humanness flared up.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't even want to say their humanness.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's not quite the right word.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're going to really struggle with language today.
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  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it was, it just wasn't enough, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, we need a little more.
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  And,
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  you know,
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  the irony is that I think what we took from Philip's books is
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  grace is enough.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's more than enough.
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  SPEAKER_00: But
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  SPEAKER_00: what the Adam and Eve story tells us is that,
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  that sometimes we take our eyes off of Jesus and we like sheep
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  start nibbling our
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  SPEAKER_00: way to lostness.
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  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's, it's done intentionally.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it just catches us off guard in a moment of vulnerability.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, but,
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  The human story of the Garden of Eden and then the rest of the
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  Bible is that we are
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  SPEAKER_00: constantly in need of being chased down by a God who won't give up on us.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  So that's what made it for me just shocking was that he was not
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  the kind of guy who
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  SPEAKER_00: would just lord it over us with a mean God.
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  SPEAKER_00: He really got grace.
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  SPEAKER_00: I hope he still gets it.
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  yeah um but for whatever reason just sort of lost sight of what
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  it means to be a
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  child of god yeah yeah yeah and i think that um you know i've
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  got some things that
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  that i that i've been working on for several years about what
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  it means to be a
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  SPEAKER_03: parishioner like what does it mean to be a congregation member
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  SPEAKER_03: And how do we treat our clergy?
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  SPEAKER_03: But I'm wondering,
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  SPEAKER_03: Tim,
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  do I just take my stack of Yancey books and burn them in the
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  fireplace now?
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  Or am I supposed to just only burn the ones or just cross out
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  the language where he
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  SPEAKER_03: talked about marriage,
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  SPEAKER_03: but then the other stuff is okay?
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  or and you know I and I you know I apologize in that we are I
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  don't mean to make
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  light of Philip and his wife's the trauma that they're going
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  through in any way and
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  we're kind of picking on him as an example I guess to talk
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  through this stuff so
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  maybe God can give us some grace in the discussion there but I
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  don't know you know
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  we're just trying to you know figure out how to live through
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  next Tuesday and
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  SPEAKER_03: meanwhile my
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  the stuff that I've set on my shelf to be kind of some guide
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  stones or guiding
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  SPEAKER_03: lights for me,
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  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what to do with.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are several strands to the conversation.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let me start with the,
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  I think the most important strand is what kind of relationship
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  do we as followers
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  SPEAKER_00: of Jesus have with those called to lead us to follow Jesus?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what do we do when they let us down?
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  SPEAKER_00: So let's kind of save that one for a moment.
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  SPEAKER_00: This won't surprise people.
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  SPEAKER_00: My algorithms light up with this kind of stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: Being a pastor and I read this stuff,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: so I on Facebook,
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  SPEAKER_00: I get any comment about Philip Yancey comes up on my algorithm.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was interesting to me,
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  SPEAKER_00: one,
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  SPEAKER_00: to read those who said,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  SPEAKER_00: we can't read his stuff anymore.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I thought,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  then you better stop reading the Psalms because King David
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  wrote a lot of those
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  SPEAKER_00: Psalms.
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  SPEAKER_00: And King David committed adultery,
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  SPEAKER_00: not only committed adultery,
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  SPEAKER_00: but murdered the spouse he was committing adultery with.
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  SPEAKER_00: The point of the Bible is it's about messy people.
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  SPEAKER_00: And how God's grace comes in different expressions.
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  You know,
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  when we talk about grace,
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  we often think of this warm embrace of God.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it is that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes God's grace comes to us like a two-by-four over the head.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in the case of David,
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  Nathan the prophet came to him and told a story about a rich
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  man stealing a poor
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  SPEAKER_00: man's lamb.
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  SPEAKER_00: And David was incensed.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then Nathan says, you're the man.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're the one I'm talking about.
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  And God used that moment of confrontation as an act of grace to
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  get David's
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  attention so that David could realize just the depths of what
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  he had done.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he had a come-to-Jesus moment in the Old Testament, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And David's life and his leadership was never the same after that.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not that God didn't forgive him,
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  SPEAKER_00: but there are consequences when we betray confidence,
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  SPEAKER_00: when we betray our spouses,
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  SPEAKER_00: when we betray our friends.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are consequences, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean we can't be forgiven,
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  SPEAKER_00: but there are consequences,
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  SPEAKER_00: and David's kingdom kind of fell apart,
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  SPEAKER_00: and his legacy in terms of his family and his kids didn't fare well.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yet, King David was in the line of Jesus, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And God still called him a man after God's heart.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we still read David's stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: We still read about Peter who betrayed Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: We still read these stories by leaders who failed.
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  SPEAKER_00: And their failures does not negate the gospel.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really important.
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  SPEAKER_00: Philip Yancey
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  SPEAKER_00: And I can say this with confidence.
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  SPEAKER_00: Philip Yancey proclaimed and proclaims the gospel in his books.
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  SPEAKER_00: He may have let us down, but what he says in his books is still true.
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  That God is a God of grace and mercy and compassion,
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  and the books are still worth reading.
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  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't necessarily say that about all Christian leaders,
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  because there are some Christian leaders I just patently
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  disagree with their
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  SPEAKER_00: understanding of God.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I would have said before or after their sin,
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  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't necessarily recommend their books.
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  But Philip Yancey was a guy I really believed in because I
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  thought he was spot on
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  SPEAKER_00: with the gospel.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I do think we can still read his books.
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  SPEAKER_00: The second kind of strand that I saw in all of these posts was,
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: see,
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  SPEAKER_00: we talk about grace too much.
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  SPEAKER_00: We need to start putting in stuff about morals and behavior.
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  Because grace,
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  when you have too much grace,
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  then people start doing this.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_03: because for some reason,
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  SPEAKER_03: we feel like if we put more stuff in about morals and be like,
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  SPEAKER_03: did at any point Philip not understand that this was not a good thing?
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  Like he needed someone to tell him that this was something to
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  stay away from.
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  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I just don't understand that.
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  and i think of course this is the deep grace diving podcast so
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  we're going to talk
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  about grace a lot but i i that you know that brings up this
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  whole topic of whether
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  or not grace is the easy road out in all ways or whether it's
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  actually a road that
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  requires deep thought and contemplation and tough tough choices
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  yeah yes yes and so
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  i um again i just want to harken back to some of these leaders
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  who have failed
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  SPEAKER_00: who played it, who preached it by the moral book, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Sin management was their main theme.
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  SPEAKER_00: Repentance before grace was their main theme.
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  SPEAKER_00: Behaviorism was their main theme.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yet these people still failed.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is
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  The harder we work to try to earn God's grace,
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  the deeper into our own doo-doo we end up being.
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  SPEAKER_00: There is only grace.
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  SPEAKER_03: Can we unpack that just a little bit, Tim?
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  When we're talking about different approaches that different
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  churches take,
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  SPEAKER_03: I think what you're saying is...
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  There is a style of preaching and sort of philosophy on how to
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  walk a Christian faith.
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  SPEAKER_03: And in that,
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  SPEAKER_03: in a particular style that I think you're referencing,
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  SPEAKER_03: it's more about here you need to do the following behaviors.
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  SPEAKER_03: I mean, make sure you're—obviously,
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  adultery and they're saying no adultery they're also saying do
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  this do don't do
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  this and it's more of a list and and that's actually attractive
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  i think naturally
• 18:00
  attractive to humans yes because it's way easier to follow a
• 18:03
  list of rules at least
• 18:05
  we think it is than it is to be like god loves you whether
• 18:09
  you're following the
• 18:09
  list or not that's amorphous and i don't that takes work right
• 18:14
  yes i think that's
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: absolutely true kind of okay
• 18:19
  We do think that,
• 18:24
  and yet I think intuitively we realize,
• 18:29
  should we be aware of our behavior?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Of course we should.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Are there things that we don't do?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Of course there are things that we don't do.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't do them because we follow the law.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's because we follow the principle of love.
• 18:44
  When Jesus talked,
• 18:45
  he said,
• 18:45
  do to others as you would have them do to you.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: love your neighbor, love your enemy.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: The defining principle for Jesus,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: for Paul,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: for the disciples was always love,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: not laws and rules.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that love should shape us.
• 19:07
  And this will be sort of ironic now to bring this up when we're
• 19:11
  talking about a guy
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: who committed adultery,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: but
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Marriage is not based on rules.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: When spouses get married,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: they don't sit down and say,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: these are the 20 things that we will and will not do in our relationship.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: When you're in a relationship of love,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: you live not by rules,
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: but by the give and flow of love for each other.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't commit adultery because of the great pain it would cause Jan.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let me just say, does that mean I'm immune to it?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I still need to be on guard.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: That shiny apple that Eve experienced,
• 19:54
  there are shiny apples out there all the time for various
• 19:56
  things in our lives.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't abuse Jan because it would hurt her.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't
• 20:04
  say mean things to her because it would hurt her and in the
• 20:07
  times that I do it's
• 20:09
  about apology because I love her my actions toward her are
• 20:12
  motivated by love and we
• 20:17
  could put all the rules in that we want it's still going to
• 20:20
  make humanity messy and
• 20:26
  we're still going to get it wrong but the problem is when we
• 20:29
  live by the rules we
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: die by the rules right
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if you live by grace, it is the thing that changes you.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is the thing that shapes you.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's the thing that saves you and rescues you and confronts you.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: It is everything.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And when people say we speak too much about grace,
• 20:47
  it's because they don't quite understand just how wide and deep
• 20:52
  and far and wide
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: grace really is.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: It shapes everything.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Grace doesn't come to us always as a warm embrace.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: as I mentioned before,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes it does have to come to us with a word of tough love,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: for example.
• 21:07
  Not to say,
• 21:08
  get your acts together,
• 21:10
  so much as to say,
• 21:12
  do you know how much you're loved?
• 21:15
  And do you know right now how much what you're doing is hurting
• 21:18
  the people that you love?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And just as an aside,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: by the way,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: those who really think we need to preach more behaviorism,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: it's always interesting to me that they focus on personal behavior and
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: but never communal behavior, which is the stuff Jesus cared about.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Loving neighbor,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: feeding the poor,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: seeking justice,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: pushing back against systems that hold people back.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Those were always the things that Jesus cared about.
• 21:47
  And people who are sort of into behaviorism,
• 21:50
  that's not what they're thinking about.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's never on the radar.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think it needs to be both.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: But again, if your ethic is love...
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, you're going to care for the poor.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're going to seek justice.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're going to fight against economic inequality.
• 22:10
  And you're going to fight against powers that seek to lord it
• 22:13
  over others.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And yes,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: if you love,
• 22:16
  you're going to want to be a person of integrity and you're
• 22:20
  going to want to be
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: honest because you know dishonesty hurts the people that you love.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know that yelling at people is not loving.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's not doing to others what you'd have them do to you.
• 22:30
  So when we live like children of God who are loved,
• 22:40
  that really sets us free to live.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: If we constantly have to live by rules,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: all we're doing is looking behind our back to see,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: did I do it wrong?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we're managing sin rather than living life and loving.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: So is the shorthand,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: if then,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: compared to because therefore,
• 22:59
  is that good shorthand for the kind of things that you're
• 23:01
  talking about now?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm loved, I live this way.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm loved, I live this way.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And because I love, I live this way.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not perfectly, obviously, but more rules doesn't make us better people.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Love is what transforms.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Grace is what transforms.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And there come those moments of temptation.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Happened to Adam and Eve.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to guess it happened to Philip Yancey somehow.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Those moments of temptation that says...
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know what, you're not quite loved enough.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what's the big temptation for Adam and Eve?
• 23:47
  The serpent whispers in her ear,
• 23:49
  you know what,
• 23:50
  God's holding back something from you.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: You could be like God.
• 23:55
  And so you hear this little whisper,
• 23:56
  you know what,
• 23:57
  you're not quite fulfilled.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: This woman over here, look at the way she looks at you.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Look at how she talks to you and takes an interest in you.
• 24:07
  And if we're not careful and we don't step back and look in the
• 24:12
  mirror and say,
• 24:12
  you know what?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: God loves you just as you are.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need that other person.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's when we get ourselves into trouble.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's what makes us vulnerable.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Not that we don't follow the rules.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: We become vulnerable at our point of identity.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: Good point.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to ask this question,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: and I think you're going to say,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think I just answered it,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: but I'm going to ask it differently.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: And the question is,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: so,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: Philip Yancey,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: at least in my lifetime,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: pointing to the grace of God like no others,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: and certainly impactful to both of us.
• 24:48
  and if he can go to like what hope is there for me like i'm
• 24:53
  just a regular dude
• 24:54
  that has not spent his whole life studying the scripture i need
• 24:57
  help right right so
• 24:59
  i like man you know what what am i supposed to do yeah i think
• 25:05
  i think that's kind
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: of the uh the question in the end um
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: it's sort of, yeah, if these great leaders can't do it, how can I do it?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And secondly,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: when these great leaders do fail,
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: does that mean that the gospel isn't quite what I thought it was?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's scary, right?
• 25:32
  You know,
• 25:32
  sometimes people,
• 25:33
  and this is easy to do,
• 25:35
  look,
• 25:35
  so I'm not,
• 25:36
  this isn't judgmental,
• 25:39
  It's easy to put our faith in the people who are calling us to
• 25:42
  follow Jesus rather
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: than in Jesus himself.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just natural, right?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: We've got people who are our mentors.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: We've got our spiritual leaders.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: We listen to them.
• 25:52
  We believe that they have something that we don't have,
• 25:55
  training,
• 25:56
  insight,
• 25:56
  whatever it might be.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they let us down, it's easy.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Some people just sort of say, okay, I'm done with faith, period.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 26:07
  And I want to talk about that just a little bit from the
• 26:09
  standpoint of just,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: the regular congregants sitting in the congregation.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: And just a reminder that,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: we look at,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: we hold up these leaders for better or for worse.
• 26:22
  And we say,
• 26:23
  when I,
• 26:23
  you know,
• 26:24
  when I'm going through something,
• 26:25
  please pray for me.
• 26:26
  And part of the reason I'm saying that is because I know God's
• 26:31
  going to hear your prayer.
• 26:32
  There's comfort in knowing that I know he's going to hear your
• 26:38
  prayer,
• 26:38
  right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: As I'm working through stuff.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's easy for us to forget about the humanity in leaders.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not in any way excusing behavior.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: But what I'm saying is, you know, pastors are not Jesus.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: And they're at a point to Jesus.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember...
• 27:01
  very early in you know when Lisa and I had first moved to
• 27:05
  Phoenix and we joined
• 27:07
  this new church and we got to know some of the pastors a little
• 27:10
  bit and you were
• 27:11
  one of them and I remember having a conversation with Lisa and
• 27:16
  and it was after we
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: found out that you had a team of people doing hospital visits and
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: or a couple of people doing hospital visits.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason why was because within your sphere of ministry,
• 27:30
  that was not an area where you felt passionate about doing or
• 27:34
  didn't feel compelled
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: to do it.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: That was our understanding then.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember we had to think about that.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: We had to be like, well, how does a pastor not do hospital visits?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: And then we had to start thinking about, well,
• 27:50
  Are all pastors responsible for everything in the entire
• 27:54
  ministry in all ways?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: And we had to work through that, right?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:59
  we came from small town and small town was there's one pastor
• 28:02
  and that's the person
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: you call and he or she shows up.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: And is that the right way to do ministry?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so through...
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: some growth in that area and some,
• 28:12
  some growth with a friend who runs an organization called
• 28:17
  pastorserve.org.
• 28:18
  I started to realize like,
• 28:20
  what is my responsibility as a parishioner to care for my
• 28:24
  leaders?
• 28:25
  And one of my responsibilities for me is to not put on them
• 28:30
  unattainable inhuman
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: sort of responsibilities to be all things to all people at all times.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have a good friend who used to say, we all have pins in our underwear.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And basically,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know what he meant was,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't matter if you're a great Christian author or a worship leader,
• 28:56
  or if you're someone who sits in the congregation and you just
• 29:02
  enjoy the ministry
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: that's done around you.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're all human beings.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: We all fall short.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: where in the prayer of the Lutheran confessions,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: we're all in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that includes our Christian leaders.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think another,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: rather than looking at Christian leaders who fail and say,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: see,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't work,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: it's to say,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: see,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: this is all we have.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: We only have grace.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we all need it.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we're all in need of it.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there isn't anything else.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: We can't try harder.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: We can't work harder.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about keeping our eyes on Jesus,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: following Jesus,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: and recognizing that his grace won't abandon us in our worst moments.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: And in our worst moments,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: that grace is all we have,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: and that that grace will get us through and can heal us.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: and at the same time to,
• 30:02
  to live in the power of that grace and to just keep reminding
• 30:05
  us and refreshing
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: ourselves.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm loved.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm loved.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need to act that way.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm, I want to love others.
• 30:13
  Um,
• 30:13
  and then to really,
• 30:14
  we,
• 30:14
  we need to surround ourselves with good people,
• 30:16
  right.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Who kind of remind us that we're loved.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes religious leaders can become isolated.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, don't have support systems that they need.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it can be a great demonstration of grace.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: The last thing I wanna say,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: John,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: is one thing I have seen is,
• 30:40
  and I've seen this happen many times in congregations where the
• 30:43
  pastor had moral
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: failure.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the congregation says,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: why,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: in the Lutheran church,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: if there's moral failure,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: you're gone.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're out.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're moved for ministry.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And people said, well, wait a minute, aren't we a grace-based church?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Shouldn't we just forgive and move on?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is yes and no.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: we're a grace-based church,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: but we hold leaders accountable and we hold them to a higher standard.
• 31:15
  And until that leader has been through a process to figure out
• 31:18
  why he or she did
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: what he or she did and has received healing and reconciliation and has
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: reconciled with his or her family, that person has work to do.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that gracious work, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's grace-based work.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:36
  It has work to do to get well,
• 31:40
  to get whole,
• 31:40
  and then maybe get back into ministry.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: But,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: we don't say,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: we don't have,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: let's say,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: an alcoholic come out and say,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an alcoholic.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: And say, oh, great.
• 31:58
  Well,
• 31:58
  now that you've admitted it,
• 32:00
  come on back and let's not worry about your alcoholism.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Everything's okay now.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: We love you and forgive you.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, even alcoholics know they got to get well.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 32:11
  And that's,
• 32:11
  to Yancey's credit,
• 32:12
  I think what he's saying is he can't be in ministry right now.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: He's not well enough to be in ministry right now.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's just so well said, Tim.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I have to say one more time,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:26
  if you're listening to this and you are in ministry and your
• 32:29
  choices have left you
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: in a brutal spot,
• 32:33
  if you are a church board member or an elder and this is
• 32:38
  information you have and
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: you're not sure how to deal with it,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: The folks at pastorserve.org,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: I know them very well,
• 32:45
  and I absolutely recommend that you go to that website and help
• 32:48
  them bring grace
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: and healing to this situation.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think one of the great examples that Tim's touching on is...
• 32:56
  If you are in ministry and you've made decisions to take money
• 33:00
  from the church,
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: there's a path for you.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know what that is,
• 33:06
  but one of the paths might be you work on healing with a group
• 33:10
  like Pastor Serve
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: and you come back,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: but you're not in charge of money anymore.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: You're in charge of something else.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: And that kind of healing and grace is available.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're in that situation, seek help and get help from them.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll end with this.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: My kids were obviously pastor's kids.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we went to a very, very healthy church for the most part.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: We were at Community Church of Joy where my kids did their growing up.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of great stuff.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Look, we had some leadership failures there too.
• 33:48
  When you're a large church and a big staff,
• 33:50
  you're going to have that happen.
• 33:55
  But for the most part,
• 33:55
  people were loving and caring and compassionate and gracious.
• 34:00
  And I thought,
• 34:01
  oh,
• 34:01
  my kids are going to get by pretty well unscathed as pastor's
• 34:04
  kids.
• 34:05
  Because I knew when I was growing up some pastor's kids who
• 34:09
  really had been through
• 34:10
  the ringer with people talking about usually their dads at this
• 34:15
  point and just
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: ripping on their dads and the church and so on.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: as my kids got older,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: I found out,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: they were hearing that too and just weren't saying anything.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would say to them over and over again,
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And still do.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: These are human beings.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: And Christianity isn't always well represented.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it is, if you look for it, right?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot more good happening out there than evil.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: I said, but Christianity doesn't live or die by how Christians act.
• 34:53
  It lives or dies based on Jesus and who he claimed to be and
• 34:57
  what he said,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: what he taught and what he did.
• 35:00
  And so if you're interested in Christianity,
• 35:04
  then keep your eyes on Jesus.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to allow leaders to speak to you.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, that's what we're here for.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: But in the end, it's Jesus we follow.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Not John, not Tim, not Philip Yancey.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: We follow Jesus.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And his followers aren't always going to get it right.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Let's remember, Peter.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: And all the other disciples who abandoned Jesus, right?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: They don't always get it right.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus always responds with grace and love.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And to live like loved people is what we're called to do.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, John, any final thoughts?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we just didn't have definitive answers today,
• 35:46
  but we needed to kind of talk about it because it happens and
• 35:48
  it will happen again.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: No, I think it was great.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: My final thought is amen.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, John.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Some of you may be wondering, where's Terry?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: She had a dentist again.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 35:59
  Terry has had a very interesting couple of weeks and we're
• 36:02
  giving her some time to
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: decompress.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I said to her,
• 36:05
  you've got yourself a great podcast coming up here in a few
• 36:09
  weeks once she kind of
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: gets through this stuff.
• 36:12
  And so just keep Terry in your prayers and we'll be back with
• 36:15
  you next time.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: The deep grace diving podcast.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: Bye for now, everybody.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: Appreciate you tuning in.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: See you next time.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: John, what does the John D stand for?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever you want it to.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to go with Daniel today.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: All right.