Latest / The Favorites Sports Betting Podcast / Author Keith O'Brien on Pete Rose, Shohei Ohtani and MLB Gambling Scandals

Transcript

Author Keith O'Brien on Pete Rose, Shohei Ohtani and MLB Gambling Scandals · The Favorites Sports Betting Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Favorites, the podcast presented by bet three
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: six ' five. We are part of the Action Network.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I am chev Milman, Chief Content Officer of the Action Network.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Today is opening day for Major League Baseball, But in
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the past week, the hottest topic in baseball has not
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: been who will win the World Series? Or is Juan
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Soto the difference for the Yankees? Or is Shohei Otani
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: worth seven hundred million dollars. It is about Otani. It
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: is about the gambling scandal that has surrounded him and
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: his now former interpreter. In the category of holy crap,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: does our next guest have amazing timing? Keith O'Brien, an
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: award winning Capital Jade journalist in New York Times best
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: selling author, has a new book out this week, The
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Man at the Center, about the man at the center
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: of baseball's biggest betting scandal of all time, Pete Rose.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: The new book is titled.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Charlie Hussel, The Rise and Fall of Pete Rose and
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: the Last Glory Days of Baseball, Available now wherever fine
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: books are sold. This week, we ran an excerpt of
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: the book on actionnetwork dot com, in which Keith revealed
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: MLB had been investigating Pete Rose's betting habits for more
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: than a decade before it was revealed he had been
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: betting on baseball and ultimately banned from the sport. We
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: will get into what the past has taught us about
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: handling betting, handling today's betting scandals like the one with
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Otani and his interpreter, plus new revelations in the book, which,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: by the way, the Wall Street Journal calls compulsively readable
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: and holy terrific. As always, I am joined by my
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: co host, my companion, my padre, my BFF, professional better
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Simon Hunter Ello.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: Simon, Yeah, what a day for Chad.
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: Chad somehow new months ago his Spidey senses intuition to
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: line up this interview this week with everything that's happened.
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: So yeah, hat tip to Chad. You can't teach you people.
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: You're either born with it or not, and my guy,
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: Chad is born with it.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Listen.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: I can claim no credit all credit to Keith he
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: and I. He and I first chatted in January about
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: having him come on the show the week the book
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: came out, which is this week. I've read the book
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: and we are going to ask a lot of questions
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: about gambling. I do want to be clear, this book
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: is much much bigger than Pete Rose and his gambling scandals.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: It is brilliant, it is thorough.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Oh It's an examination of the often scandalous life of
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the best hitter and probably the most intriguing personality in
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: baseball history, who, even into his eighties, now still captures
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: people's imagination. We're going to get to Keith in one second.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: As a reminder, the Favorite Podcast is presented by North
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  Speaker 1: found in this episode description. If you're in North Carolina,
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  Speaker 1: check out the link in the episode description. As a reminder,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: catch every episode of the Favorites live on YouTube. For
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: those enjoying on YouTube, don't forget to give us a
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: like and subscribe to the Action Network YouTube page. Finally,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Cincinnati's finest New York Times best selling author, author of
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Charlie Hussele Keith O'Brien, dude, tell us how crazy it
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: has been to have this book come out this week.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Give us some of the stories.
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: Well, it's it's been bananas, Chad. Thanks for having me, Simon,
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 4:51
  Speaker 5: You know when we talked a couple months ago, and
• 4:54
  Speaker 5: we talked about this book and the research and the
• 4:56
  Speaker 5: writing of it, and when you live in Pete Rose's
• 4:59
  Speaker 5: universe as I now do. Just by accident. It's a
• 5:04
  Speaker 5: weird place, and it's a place where chain reactions happen,
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: and one person calls another, who calls another, who calls another,
• 5:10
  Speaker 5: and I'm now in that place, and you know, the
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: show Hey Astani stuff has has set off its own
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: chain reaction in Pete Rose's world. You know, last week
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: when the news broke, I was shocked, just like you
• 5:24
  Speaker 5: guys and everybody else because it was surrounding sho Hei
• 5:27
  Speaker 5: o Tani, the golden God of baseball. But I wasn't,
• 5:32
  Speaker 5: honestly that surprised that it was happening in general. You know,
• 5:37
  Speaker 5: in my book, some of the men who chase Pete
• 5:40
  Speaker 5: Rose in the nineteen eighties, the investigators, you know, predict
• 5:45
  Speaker 5: that it's only a matter of time before another player
• 5:48
  Speaker 5: gets himself in trouble again, and immediately, you know, the
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: chain reaction happened. And most people now, you know, your
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: listeners and viewers have seen Pete Rose's viral video, you
• 6:00
  Speaker 5: know where he jokingly said, you know, I wish I
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: had had an interpreter in the nineteen seventies and eighties.
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: I was walking uptown to my very first book events
• 6:11
  Speaker 5: on Tuesday night this week, I'm on the Upper West Side. I'm,
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: you know, in a panicked rush to get there, feeling
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: all the pressure of releasing the book, et cetera, et cetera.
• 6:21
  Speaker 5: And I get a text, and the text is from
• 6:24
  Speaker 5: Tommy Giosa. And Tommy Giosa was one of the guys
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: in Pete's in her circle in the nineteen seventies and eighties.
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: I interviewed him for about fourteen hours, and Tommy placed
• 6:36
  Speaker 5: Pete's bets on sports with bookies. He paid his debts,
• 6:39
  Speaker 5: you know, he walked around town with a satchel full
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: of cash, and ultimately Tommy Giosa is placing petez bets
• 6:46
  Speaker 5: on baseball. So Tommy texts me and he says, have
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: you seen the video? I said, of course, yeah, I
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: saw the video, and Tommy wrote, lol. I guess he
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: forgot that I was his interpreter in the nineteen seventies
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: and eighties. And it's true, right, I mean, Heete didn't
• 7:05
  Speaker 5: have an interpreter obviously, but he very rarely placed his
• 7:08
  Speaker 5: own bets. He had guys doing it. And I'm not
• 7:11
  Speaker 5: here to suggest you know that this is what's happened
• 7:14
  Speaker 5: in the Dodger locker room, but you know, it's it's
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: just something that happened in Pete's world, and who knows
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: what has happened.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Here Simon, what is your take on that as a
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: guy who is intimately familiar with operationally how these things work,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: what he's saying about the opportunities, I'll.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: Say I have about ten interpreters working for me as well,
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: so I totally get where they're coming from.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: Both guys.
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: It's just not pro athletes that have interpreters working for
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: them and running bets either. So yeah, I love that
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: little parallel right there.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: So, Keith, this has been a crazy week because of
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: the Otani stuff. What are some of the parallels you
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: are saying between the Otana story Otani story and the
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Pete Rose story.
• 8:06
  Speaker 5: Well, obviously, the one difference, just to get it away
• 8:09
  Speaker 5: off the top is, you know, at the moment, there
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: are no allegations that Otani bet on baseball or that
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: his interpreter bet on baseball. It's a big difference for
• 8:18
  Speaker 5: all the reasons everybody knows that said. I mean, there
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: are some stunning parallels. You know, it was you know,
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: Pete Rose's inner circle who was placing bets. You know,
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: it wasn't very often Pete on only a handful of
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: occasions did he ever personally interact with a bookie. You know,
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: it was Tommy Giosa place in the bed. It was
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: Paul Janssen placed in the bet, Mike Bertolini placed in
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: the bed. All three of those men I spoke to.
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: So that's one two. You know, just as it's happening
• 8:49
  Speaker 5: in LA right now, it was a federal investigation by
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: federal investigators, specifically, in Pete Rose's case, the FBI in
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: Cincinnati who began and investigating shady activities in the underworld.
• 9:04
  Speaker 5: And it was originally the Tommy Geosa's, the men in
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: Pete's inner circle who pop up onto the radar of
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: federal investigators. It's not Pete Rose. It's only months in
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: that they realize interesting, these men are connected to Pete Rose.
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: And then I guess the third thing is, you know,
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: just as happened last week, it's the press, who you
• 9:29
  Speaker 5: know holds baseball's feet to the fire. You know, in
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: nineteen eighty nine, it was Sports Illustrated who begins to
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: dig into a tip about Pete Rose is gambling on baseball,
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: and that tip which floats across town to the offices
• 9:45
  Speaker 5: of Major League Baseball on Park Avenue, makes them realize
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: they can't sit around. They got to take action. They
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: got to call Pete Rose, they got to have a meeting. Initially,
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: that's a secret meeting, you know. In this case, you know,
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: it's the La Times, it's ESPN digging into a story
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: that explodes onto the sports landscape. And just like with
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: this one right now, the p Rose scandal, you know,
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: blew up just you know, right before opening day, and
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: that scandal in nineteen eighty nine for those who didn't
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: live through it or for those who have forgotten, I mean,
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: it swallowed the season, It consumed it. And you know,
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: I don't know what's going to happen next. I think
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: anyone who says they know what's going to happen next
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: with the Shahani sho Heyo Tani story is just wildly speculating.
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: But if they're going to do a serious investigation at
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: Major League Baseball, it's going to have to take weeks,
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: it might take months, and they might not even be
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: on their own timeline because again, there's a federal probe
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: happening in southern California, So who knows when this ends?
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and just to piggyback and close loop on it.
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: I do appreciate yes Men's reporting on it. I thought
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: they'd be too close to it and the fact that
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: they put out there. I think just on Tuesday, right Chad,
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: that Otani's representation has not said they've pressed any type
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: of charges yet again against some of that apparently stole
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: four point five million dollars interesting nonevertheless, so it is
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: let me I.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Know, Simon, I know you want to gentleman with a question,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: but let me just close the loop on this. It
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: will be very interesting, Keith, and I love your opinion
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: on this. I do wonder, you know, Otani came out
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: had his press conference the other day, said he was shocked,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: said he didn't bet on baseball, said he didn't make
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: any bets at all.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: I do wonder, and I hope.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Are people still digging around and or will you know
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: the the media landscape has changed quite a bit.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: I think there was what SI did, how dogged they were.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: That was a different time.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: And will people just sort of accept oton these word
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: for it? Will they continue to dig around? None of
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: us have that answer, but Keith, I'm curious to sort
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: of get your take on. Do you see such a
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: massive difference in how investigations and how leagues are covered
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: from then to now that you think the rest of
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: this will be uncovered by the FEDS in Major League Baseball?
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Or will media continue to play a role.
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: I wrote a story for The Atlantic about a month ago,
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: right when those sweeping layoffs took place at what is
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: left of Sports Illustrated, the shell of Sports Illustrated, And
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: you know, the whole premise of the article was that,
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: you know, we're losing sports journalism, real on the ground
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: sports journalism, and just from an objective standpoint, there are
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: just fewer and fewer reporters on the beat. There are
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: fewer and fewer reporters in the locker room. And you know,
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: as all of us know, it's harder and harder to
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: get access to these guys, you know, in the way
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: that report once had, let's say, back in nineteen eighty nine.
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: So I do think it will be a challenge. That said,
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: I would be incredibly disappointed as a journalist if the
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: Los Angeles Times, at a minimum hasn't peeled off four
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: or six reporters and put them strictly on the show.
• 13:18
  Speaker 5: Heyo Tani story because.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: You get this chat.
• 13:21
  Speaker 5: I mean, this is this is for some reporter, whether
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: they're at ESPN or some other outlets or the Los
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: Angeles Times, this is potentially that story of a lifetime.
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: And you know, I know there's been a gutting of
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: the media workforce, but there are still reporters out there
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: who want that story. And I gotta believe right now
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: that there are teams of reporters chasing down the story
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: of what really happened, and at a minimum, I would
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: expect within days some big blowout article about the alleged
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: illegal bookmaker himself.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Shout out by the way to be dogged Matt Ribletowski
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: of Sports Handle and Action, who broke a story last
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: week that the FEDS had been investigating the guys connected
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: to the bookmakers, connected to Otani's interpreter for five years.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: Like these guys have known about him for a long time.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: So you know, I know at least one guy who's
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: on the case. Simon, you wanted to dig in a
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: little bit more, Yeah, just.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: To throw it back the Pete Rose story.
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: You know, there's so much that goes on in my
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: life where I think of the people that are in
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: my life and you know, everyone's got to sign non
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: disclosures nowadays. It's just part of the business I'm in
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: everyone I work with. This was not the way it
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: was in the seventies eighties when Pete Rose running around.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: So I would love to know why his guys, his dogs,
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: his friends, people he took really good care of, are
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: now happily to speak to for fourteen hours and spill
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: the beans on this guy's life. Did he burn that
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: many bridges? And just what's the whole thing behind that?
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: Why all of his runners have now kind of turned
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: on him all these years later.
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: You know, there's two answers to that. The first is,
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: you know, I did get access to Pete Rose for
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: the book. I was able to do twenty seven hours
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: of recorded interviews with Pete which is meaningful for all
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: the reasons everybody knows, but also meaningful because you know,
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: Pete had never before spoken to an author writing a
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: book unless he had some sort of editorial control of
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: the book, which he did not have here. And that
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: might be why Pete Rose has stopped calling me back
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: many many months ago. But in the time that I was,
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: you know, with Pete Rose and had access to him,
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: he did help open doors for me. I mean, it
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: was Pete who introduced me to Tommy Giosa, and Tommy
• 15:55
  Speaker 5: and Pete are still close today. But you know, Tommy
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: is his own man. He's in his sixties now. This
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: is a scandal that in many ways defined and destroyed
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: Tommy's life, even though he has completely rebuilt it. And so,
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: you know, as much as this is my book, Charlie
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: Hustle is the story about Pete Rose, it's also about
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: the characters who were in his orbit. And one thing
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: that I found time and again is that if you
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: happened to pass through Pete Rose's universe in the nineteen sixties,
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: seventies and eighties, you often got sucked in by his
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: gravitational pool. And it happened to guys like Tommy Giosa,
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: you know, young admirers who just wanted to hang out
• 16:44
  Speaker 5: with Pete Rose, and then once they were in his
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: inner circle, could not believe that they were hanging out
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: with Pete Rose, and they would happily do anything. But
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: it also happened to you know, important men in their
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: own right, like say Bargie Imadi, the former commission or
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: a baseball you know, Barchie and Matty is an incredible man.
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: But you could write an entire book about BARCHIEA Matti,
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: and yet BARTIEA Matti's life and career is forever entangled
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: with Pete Rose's life. So, you know, Tommy spoke to
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: me initially because Pete gave you know, I Pete gave
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: gave him my number, but he kept talking to me
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: even after Pete stopped. And others, you know, others in
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: his inner circle, you know, have had a long beef
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: with Pete Rose. Because when things fall apart in nineteen
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: eighty nine, it is for the classic gambling reasons, Simon,
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: and I know you will appreciate this. It falls apart
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: over money.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: Again, not only were there no non disclosures that were
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: being signed back then, there was some pretty disorganized book
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: making and tabulating that was happening. And ultimately there is
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: a disagreement over a sum of forty four thousand dollars.
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: You know, one of the men in Pete's inner circle
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: says he's paid off a bookie to the tune of
• 18:08
  Speaker 5: forty four thousand dollars, and Pete either disagrees with that
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: sum or disagrees with the fact that he paid it
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: at all. You know, one thing that Pete Rose did
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: a lot of was just let his debts ride. And
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: because he was Pete Rose, you know, bookies let it
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: happen in a way that they wouldn't say for you
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: or me or you know, some other guy in Cincinnati.
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: They let it ride for Pete. And but when Paul Jansen,
• 18:35
  Speaker 5: another man in his inner circle, pays off that debt,
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: Paul wants his money back and Pete won't pay him,
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: and they never agree on that sum, and it implodes
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: from there.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: In your frame, how big of a deal Pete Rose
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: was in the seventies and eighties, because you know, before
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: we come on the show, Simon is talking about Pete
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Rose as a Philly. Simon's a baby, right, He didn't
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: see Pete Rose play for the Phillies. Everybody knows the
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: legend of Pete Rose Hitking band from baseball, But can
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: you put in context what a big deal he was.
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, the first thing I would say is he's
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: bigger than SHOEO Tani right now. And that's a crazy
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: thing to say, because shoe A. Tani is the most recognizable,
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: most famous baseball player in the world. But because the
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: media landscape was more centralized in the nineteen sixties, seventies
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: and eighties. We all saw the same world through the
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: same prism, and so when you were famous in the
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: seventies or eighties, your fame was automatically larger. And so
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: Pete Rose was one of the most iconic Americans in
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: the nineteen seventies and eighties.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: You know, and.
• 19:56
  Speaker 5: He was beloved not because of his Rookie of the
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: Year award, or his multiple batting titles, or his multiple
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: World Series titles, his MVP, or even his all time
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: hit record. You know, all of those things were great,
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: of course, and amplified his fame again and again and again.
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: But even if he had only some of that, he
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: would have still been beloved because people loved him for
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: how he played. You know, he, as the title of
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: the book suggests, you know, he hustled, and that hustle
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: was real. You know, he knew from a young age
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: on the West side of Cincinnati, where he was raised,
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: that he had to work hard to make it. Because
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: Pete Rose was never the best player on his childhood
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: baseball teams. He was never the best player on his
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: high school baseball team. He probably never should have gotten
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: a shot at the minor leagues. Today, he wouldn't get
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: a shot at the minor leagues because the minor leagues
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: are smaller. He played initially in the minor leagues in
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: a rung that doesn't even exist anymore. So you know,
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: he gets this shot because he's working hard, he's hustling.
• 21:17
  Speaker 5: He makes that clear on the field. You know, this
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: was a man who sprinted to first on walks, who
• 21:24
  Speaker 5: would get into fights at second base breaking up double plays,
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: and who once, as many of us will remember, you know,
• 21:31
  Speaker 5: broke a man's shoulder slamming into the catcher at home
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: plate in a mid season, meaningless exhibition All Star game.
• 21:42
  Speaker 5: And so we love him, America does because he hustles,
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: and because he reminds us of that great American story,
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: right the one that we all still even believe today.
• 21:53
  Speaker 5: You know that if you work hard, if you try hard,
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: if you dedicate yourself, if you hustle, you can make it.
• 22:00
  Speaker 5: And so we love that story. There is a real
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: element to it. But then the press, you know, amplifies
• 22:08
  Speaker 5: this story and really guilds the mythology of Pete Rose,
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: you know, making him like a god in America by
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: the late nineteen seventies.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Also, baseball was bigger. They were winning a lot of
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: World series.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: That team was legendary as a dynasty, the Big Red Machine,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: the Reds in the seventies, and the ability to see
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: this team was so scarce. If you were a fan
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: of baseball, but you lived in Texas, maybe you're getting
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: him once a week on television, right, And so you know,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: athletes today imminately more knowable, a lot less successible, and
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Pete Rose was the opposite of that, because there was
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: an ability for the media to get to him and
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: project what he was and create, like you said in mythology,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: but that also meant he was getting away with a
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: lot of shit.
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: And so.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: You wrote this week on Actionnetwork dot Com that people
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: were aware of and looking into his betting habits as
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: far back as the mid seventies.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Explain what your book uncovered.
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So one thing I really wanted to do was
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: go back and remind readers who Pete Rose was. So
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: we're going to talk about the glory, We're gonna talk
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: about the Big Red Machine years, We're gonna we're gonna repaint,
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: you know, the story of the nineteen seventy five World Series,
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: you know, in graphic detail, because all of that is
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: important because we don't care about Pete Rose's fall if
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: we don't remember why we cared about him in the
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: first place. And the other thing I was doing, especially
• 23:46
  Speaker 5: in my interviews with Pete, you know, we would talk
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: about the nineteen seventy five World Series or you know,
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: the nineteen seventy All Star Game when he slammed into
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: Ray Fosse the catcher at home plate. But we also
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: need to talk about the gambling. And one thing I
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: wanted to do was figure out when it started and
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: how it unraveled, because it clearly does. And so you know,
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: my reporting shows and not just based on interviews with Pete,
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: but then interviews with many other people and also court documents.
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: Pete Rose is gambling with bookies. Begins at least by
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: the early nineteen seventies. This is before he's ever won
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: an MVP or a World Series, and he's betting with
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: a bookie on the West side of Cincinnati, almost like
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: a pal, right. And you know, if you were alive
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: in the seventies and eighties, people have those kind of bookies,
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: the neighborhood guy, and that was who Pete was betting
• 24:38
  Speaker 5: with for a while, but by the mid nineteen seventies
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: there are concerns again based on my reporting in nineteen
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: seventy five, during that epic World Series between the Red
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: Sox and the Reds, Johnny Bench, future Hall of Famer,
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: Pete Rose's teammate, approaches an NBC broadcaster on the field
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: at Fenway. Acording to the memory of that broadcaster, his
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: name was Kurt Gowdy. Goudy said that Bench was worried.
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: That Bench was worried because Rose was hanging out with
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: quote bad guys. And I don't know exactly who those
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: bad guys were, but what I can tell you is
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy five, during that World series, there was
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: a man who had access to the Reds locker room,
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: and in fact was in the Red's locker room. His
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: name was Mario Nunez. He was known as quote the Cuban,
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: and he was a well connected man in the Tampa
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: gambling circles. Mario Nunez worked as the major d at
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: Tampa Downs, the horse track there and he was p
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: Rose's good pal. And you know who else liked the Cuban?
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: Sparky Anderson, future Hall of Famer, the manager of the Reds,
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: Sparky thought that October and actually told the press that
• 25:57
  Speaker 5: the Cuban was their good luck charm. Guy's in the clubhouse.
• 26:01
  Speaker 5: Who knows why. And by nineteen seventy eight, again based
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: on my reporting, there is a meeting that happens at
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: Riverfront Stadium before a game in the office of Red's
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: president Dick Wagner. Now, Dick Wagner was not a fan
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: of Pete Rose. He had just taken over as president
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: after you know, serving his VP there for many years.
• 26:22
  Speaker 5: Dick Wagner was sort of a puritanical, militant guy. Pete
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: Rose was not his flavor of ice cream. But this
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: meeting is not about a personal beef. It's about concerns
• 26:35
  Speaker 5: over his gambling. And it's not just Dick Wagner who
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: is reportedly in this meeting. It's at least one official
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: from Major League Baseball, the director of security for Major
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: League Baseball. And this is eleven years before the public,
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: you know, will ever really become aware that p Rose
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: frankly has a gambling problem.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Simon, can you name the fastest growing ticketing app in
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: the United States?
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Game Time?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: That's right, It's game Time. I love game Time for
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: two reasons. First, they still sponsor this show. Second, I
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: actually use game Time all the time. They have amazing
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• 27:28
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• 27:29
  Speaker 1: No matter where you live, download the game Time app,
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• 27:34
  Speaker 2: You deserve it.
• 27:35
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• 27:48
  Speaker 3: I got so much to ask, so many questions.
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: But it was such a different area, obviously, someone that
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: didn't live in that era with the joke all the
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: time as the.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: Seventies you could be ugly but be sexy. That was Pete.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: Pete was the guy. He had the look.
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: The name Pete Rose is just amazing name. It's just
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: like George Best. He's a British soccer player. Just that's
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: an incredible name. They live up to those kind of names,
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: so even you were calling the book Charlie hustle. I
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: love because what was it Whitey Ford who called him
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: that when he ran down hustling out a walk to
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: first base?
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: Where people love Pete?
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: And I think the difference now again, my generation is softer.
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: Millennials are definitely softer, but I think we think more
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: about the sickness and that's what Pete had. Pete, like,
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: we're all of us on here are pretty normal people, right.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: We all might have some type of addiction to things.
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: You know, Chad likes to eat good nuts and eat
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: olive oil. That's his addiction. That's a good addiction to have.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: Pete was chasing something he could never catch. And I
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: think the Philadelphia area where we talk about Pete, our
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: whole thing is it fell at the MLB enabled it.
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: Why did they let him keep coaching when they knew
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: he had this problem? Why did they keep him in
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: the sport? And I would love to ask someone like
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: you were so close to it. Emi takes no ownership
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: for this. They put it all into Pete where it
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: felt like they were the enabler in so many different ways.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: And I know it's a different time, but I would
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: love to know what you think about that where the
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: MLB in what way did they try to help Pete
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: in any way that you looked into it. Did they
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: ever try to help them or were they just waiting
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: for him to really get caught, to bring their hammer
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: down on him and they were just buying their time
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: this whole time.
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: You know, the details of that nineteen seventy eight meeting
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: and whatever investigation happened that spring are are shady, their murky,
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: their murky, just like the details around show heo tani
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: right now, you know. So I can't say if you know,
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: they were really worried or if Pete set there, you know,
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: allayed their concerns in the meeting up in Dick Wagner's office.
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: I don't know what happened there, you know. You know,
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: what I do know is that when they became aware
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: of his gambling on baseball, they did act quickly. You know,
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: in eighty nine, February eighty nine, just like right now,
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: or there were weeks before opening day, you know, major
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: League Baseball gets this tip that Sports illustrateds digging in
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: to his baseball gambling, and they hold a secret meeting
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: and in in in in the in the Office of
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: Major League Baseball, and that meeting is attended by Pete Rose,
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: Pete Rose's attorneys, UH, the outgoing commissioner Peter Uberroth, the
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: incoming commissioner and current National League President Bargiamatti, and and
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: by Barciamatti's good friend Fae Vincent, who is the deputy commissioner.
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: And you know, I did so much reporting around that meeting,
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: because this is another turning point for Pete Rose.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: And in the same way, you know, there are probably
• 30:42
  Speaker 5: several turning points happening right now in baseball. And UH,
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: based on what I learned. If Pete's honest that day
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: when they ask him point blank, have you been betting
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: on baseball? The whole narrative is different, The whole the
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: whole story is different. And I don't mean to suggest
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: that he wouldn't have been punished, or that Major League
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: Baseball to bury the story.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: They wouldn't have.
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: They would have had to do something in Sports Illustrated
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: was coming out with a series of articles. But remember,
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: you know, p Rose was good for baseball in nineteen
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: eighty nine, in the same way that Shoho Tani is
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: good for baseball right now. And so the idea that
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: Barchiamadi had some kind of vendetta against p Rose or
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: wanted to bring him down is just a false narrative.
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: You know, they would have done everything they could to
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: save him, to salvage him, and specifically, you know, based
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: on my reporting, Peter Uberov, the outgoing commissioner, did not
• 31:46
  Speaker 5: want to saddle Barchiamati with this problem. And Uberov had
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: navigated some tough situations just a few years earlier, in
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: like nineteen eighty three eighty four, there's a huge cocaine
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: scandal in baseball, and it snares a lot of guys,
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: you know, Dave Parker, Keith Hernandez Yogi, Berra's son Dale,
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: big names, and these men are on trial. But they
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: have to come and testify at a trial for a
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: prominent cocaine dealer in Pittsburgh. And you Wereroth was commissioner,
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: and lots of people were calling for suspensions or bands
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: because this is another thing that's bad for baseball. But
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: you Weroth threads the needle and he realizes that bands
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: and suspensions are just gonna make it worse. So he
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: lets them testify. He lets it play out, and then
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: one by one he gets the men who were implicated
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: in the trial, including Hernandez and Parker and others, to
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: essentially apologize Maya Kulpa and donate a portion of their
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: salary to drug treatment programs, and poof, it's gone again.
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: I don't mean to suggest that it would have been
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: proof gone with p Rose and gambling, but Peter Ubroroth,
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: based on my reporting, wanted a quick solution, something that
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: would not saddle Bargiamatti with this, something that would maybe
• 33:15
  Speaker 5: salvage the season, and none of that happens.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Simon, you make a great point about how different generations
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: look at this, and in so many ways, gambling is
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: an industry that is obviously now legal, more professional, a clean,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: well lighted space that it's existing in. At the same time,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: a guy named the Cuban is hanging out in the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: locker room of the Cincinnati Reds, who are the greatest
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: baseball team of the seventies, and not just not only
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: is their best player familiar with him and betting with him,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: the manager is referencing him. And it almost seems like
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: the transverse because you would never be allowed in a
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: locker room and you do this above board in legal states,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: and no one would ever be caught dead saying, oh, yeah,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: my friend Simon Hunter. In the seventies, it was so
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: accepted as a regular part of life, and it's fascinating
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: to me how different this is right now.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I have a question from that,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: but i'd like both of your perspectives on.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: The way that's changed and how it's completely flipped even
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: though now it's a legal industry.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Keith, I want to hear what you have to say first.
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: You make a great point, Chat, I mean, the fact
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: that the Cuban was in the locker room. The fact
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: that in the nineteen eighties Tommy Gios and Paul Jansen
• 34:56
  Speaker 5: would be in the locker room and no one would
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: say anything about it, you know, is a world we
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: can scarcely imagine today, when reporters can hardly get into
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: the locker room, you know, much less you know professional gamblers.
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: I mean, Simon, have you ever even tried to have
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: that kind of access? Would it even work at all? No?
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: I mean Chad talked a little bit the summer again.
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: I'm the last person I ever get myself for other
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: people in trouble. But we had a couple of NFL
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: players get pops for sports betting, and I told Chad,
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: people are going to be amazed over the next coming
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: years of how many of these stories are going to
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: pop up because they just don't understand that this has
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: been going on for a long time. But it was
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: all in the shadows, like Chad said, now it is
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: in the light and they do have all the books
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: working together with the government to catch these people. So
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: my view it is, you know, I have clients and
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: people I work with that are either ex athletes or
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: still very friendly with professional athletes playing now who do
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: bet like during their off season. So you know, to me,
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: we were never were gonna get any bigger than Otani.
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: This is as big as it gets.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: Really. I just I can never see Patrick Mahomes getting
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: caught in this type of scandal. I really can't.
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: Where that's the most amazing part of the Otani part
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: of it, where the Pete Rose. I think when you
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: think back to that era, it's not as shocking, right,
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: things were just different and you know, there wasn't social
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: media everywhere, There weren't cell phones everywhere taking a picture
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: of it, people everywhere, like you could get away with
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: so much more. It's just crazy humans don't change though.
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: Even though people know they're gonna get caught, they still
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: think they're gonna out thinking. So this is a long
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: way of talking. You know, your view of all of this,
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: You've dealt with Pete and all these people. Now you know,
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: is where he's at today? Like you know this guy
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: who Ramley posts video is online right where.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: I don't know where he was at. Was he in Vegas?
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: It looked like he was in Vegas. Looked like he
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: was in Vegas. Yeah.
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: Can you believe that he's carried? Like you just talk
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: about the superstar? He's the tiny I of his there
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: even bigger. Can you believe we're still obsessed and really
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: interested in about him forty years thirty years later? Where
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: it's incredible he's hit, that's how impactful he was that
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: he has stayed disinteresting. Did you really think you'd be
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: writing a book about him in twenty twenty four?
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: You know, like probably, Chad. You know, you know, I
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: got a list of story ideas that is just always
• 37:30
  Speaker 5: going right. And some of those stories are short, short
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: form magazine radio story, and some of them are potential
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: book ideas. And p Rose had just sort of been
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: on that list for me for some time, you know,
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: And I think it's not just because of his iconic
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: nature that we still care. To me, I think it's
• 37:52
  Speaker 5: because of the narrative itself. I mean, it's just got
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: all the elements. And i'd be you know, from the
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: from the very first days of my reporting on this book,
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: which is almost now two and a half three years ago, Wow,
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: I wasn't thinking about it as a baseball story. And
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: I want to be clear, like, there are there are
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: so many baseball scenes in this book, and and entire
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: chapters upon chapters, you know, written about baseball, some of
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: the most iconic moments in baseball. But to me, this
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: was a story about a man, and I began to
• 38:26
  Speaker 5: think of him as almost like Icarus, you know, this
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: Greek figure. You know, he was Icarus and red stirrup
• 38:33
  Speaker 5: socks and black cleats. You know, he was going to
• 38:36
  Speaker 5: he was gonna fly, but inevitably he was going to fall.
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: And one thing that I just had to do as
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: a writer, you know, once I had the reporting, once
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: I had the material, is just stay out of my
• 38:47
  Speaker 5: own way, you know, let the story carry it, because
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: the narrative is just there for you, and you know,
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: Chad knows this. Sometimes you got to you got to
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: find the narrative, you got to figure out how to
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: make it work. In this case, I just had to
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: stay out of my own way, because the Pete Rose
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: narrative is just the kind of story that humans gravitate to.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: You know, we talk about access in the locker room
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: and people like the Cuban. We said in the beginning,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: and we sort of referenced it in a joking way
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: that Tommy Gioso was Pete Rose's interpreter. But that's how
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: these things happen now right. The interpreter is the one
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: who has access. We've stuck out to me is that
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: the interpreter is in debt four and a half million
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: dollars Simon. How is an interpreter making three hundred grand
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: a year getting any kind of credit line that is
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: half a mill at a time to make bets.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: I'm not trying to talk out of school and getting trouble, Chad.
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: But in the in the bookie world, they might as
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: well be federal agents. Everything you think of people, they've
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: looked into every little thing, and the biggest thing they're
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: looking into all that is because they don't want you
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: to pull a runner because that's on them. And yeah,
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: the CD underworld is these people are connected to not
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: awful people, Like seriously, that I am the very sweet,
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: childish face of the underworld, Like my happy, bubbly personality
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: is not the eighty percent of the norm of these people.
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: These are people you don't want to be in business with.
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: So I think that's a little bit with Chad's touching
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: on here people is you would not lend out this
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: kind of money unless you knew it was backed by
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: someone that had the equity for real, because that's that's
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: the end of your life, and your life is not
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: worth some random guy making a bet.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: He is one of many clients to this bookie.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: He is obviously a bigger fish in the pond, but
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: he's not defis So yeah, again, I would love your
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: Keith's perspective of this, where like he knows it's all
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: these guys running the money around, right the Pete was
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: smart enough that he didn't want to be connected to it,
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: right where he tried to keep his distance.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: That's just the world they live in, right.
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so we are fully waiting into the pool of
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: speculation now. But one thing that rings true about What
• 41:24
  Speaker 5: you just said is how the bookie, the alleged bookie
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: in this case, must have been thinking about his dealings
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: with the interpreter. You know in the nineteen eighties. You know,
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: p Rose doesn't get in trouble in nineteen eighty nine
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: for something he did three weeks earlier, something that Tommy
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: Giosa did three weeks earlier. This has been happening for
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: three years. It's been bubbling, bubbling, bubbling to the surface.
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: And the in that time Window bookies were extending Pete
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: Rose a very large credit line, not because they were
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: talking to Pete Rose, but because they knew that Paul
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: Jansen was sitting in the basement of you know, p
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: Rose's house in Indian Hill, Ohio, you know, with with
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: the hit king, And they were extending in credit line
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: to Tommy Giosa because they knew that Tommy wasn't placing
• 42:17
  Speaker 5: a two thousand dollar bet. It was p Rose placing
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: a two thousand dollars bet. And I know that not
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: because I'm speculating, but because when the investigation happens in
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: nineteen eighty nine and one of these bookies does turn
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: state's evidence and will happily sit not just for a
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: deposition and interviews with law enforcement, but will sit for
• 42:42
  Speaker 5: a deposition with Major League Baseball, They ask him, because
• 42:47
  Speaker 5: they're now they're now pressing to make sure they have
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: the facts. How do you know you know that you
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: were dealing with p Rose. Why did you extend, you know,
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: such a credit line to a man like Tommy Giosa,
• 42:59
  Speaker 5: who was a guy who just worked at a gym,
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: and you know, you know the book, he said, clearly,
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: again and again. Well, I extended the line and I
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: let him carry this debt because everybody knew it was
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: Pete Roase behind him. Everybody knew, Yeah.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: People have fish. Know when you have a big fish
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: on the line, you don't let it go.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: You can't.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: The other thing, the other thing that is interesting synergy too,
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: is I read in the Los Angeles Times, which again
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: is doing a great job, in my opinion, reporting this
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: story that the alleged bookie in this case was bragging
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: to folks in the underworld that he had show Hay,
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: or that he was connected to show Hay, which, by
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: the way, is the same thing that bookies did in
• 43:44
  Speaker 5: the nineteen eighties when they were connected to Pete Roast's
• 43:48
  Speaker 5: same unbelievable.
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: And you know, just thinking about Pete and the Hall
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: of Fame and now that MLB is in bed with
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: baseball and the times have changed, I know that they
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: do hold a grudge against him. And he has not
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: helped himself at all, Right, I mean everything he's done,
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: all of his antics the year since, kind of sticking
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: his nose out out at it and all of that.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: You know, Pete's not helped himself in any way. Not
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: saying he has. We all know there's other.
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: Stories about Pete off field. Horrible person, has done horrible things.
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: We are talking strictly what Pete did for the game
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: of baseball in the seventies and eighties and how impactful
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: he was to the sport. It's what I believe he
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: should be in the Hall of Fame. He was one
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: of the best players at it. He brought an insane
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: amount of fans to the sport. No one can deny
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: that that he brought fans to the sport because not
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: only was he a Hall of Famer for the Cincinnati Cincinnati,
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: he came to Philadelphie became a Hall of Famer. Like
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: when I think of the Powder Blues, I think of
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: Pete Rose and that hair flowing. So your view of
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: it someone that's closer than to anyone else. You think
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: Pete should be a Hall of Famer.
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? Or, as
• 44:59
  Speaker 5: he would say, that's a hunter a million dollar question,
• 45:00
  Speaker 5: because that's what he thinks he lost by being banned
• 45:03
  Speaker 5: thirty five years ago. You know, I want to be clear,
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: you know, my book isn't a book about making an
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: argument for p Rose, is not making an argument against
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: p Rose. The book is not about opinions. And I
• 45:18
  Speaker 5: spend very little time on the Hall of Fame issue.
• 45:21
  Speaker 5: It's in the last act of the book. It's in
• 45:23
  Speaker 5: the wreckage section of the book, and there is a
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: lot of wreckage. But of course, yeah, like you, like
• 45:29
  Speaker 5: every sports fan, you know, I've thought a lot about it,
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: and I thought a lot too about just how we
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: honor athletes in general. And you know, my prevailing thought
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: at this point is I just feel like we've really
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: lost perspective. You know, we like to put our athletes,
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: our famous ones, especially on pedestals, and we like to
• 45:50
  Speaker 5: ascribe to them moral values that they may or may
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: not have, that they you know, may or may not deserve.
• 45:56
  Speaker 5: And the fact is we just don't know that much
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: about them, and the show Hay story shows that again.
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: You know, again, whether he's whatever has happened here, no
• 46:09
  Speaker 5: one would have expected this story ten days ago. Nobody,
• 46:14
  Speaker 5: and and and so you know, in my opinion, for
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: all of those reasons, I believe that players in general,
• 46:21
  Speaker 5: in baseball, in football, and basketball and beyond should be
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: honored or enshrined into the Hall of Fame for what
• 46:29
  Speaker 5: they did on the field, on the court. And then
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: if what they did in the shadows, if what they
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: did in their bedrooms, if what they did in their
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: personal lives is so bad, so egregious, then I think
• 46:43
  Speaker 5: we should put that on the plaque too, and and
• 46:46
  Speaker 5: and in you know, uh, put that there for perpetuity,
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: right next to their accomplishments.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Heith, amazing book, Charlie Hustle, The Rise and Fall of
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Pete Rose in the Last Glory Days of Baseball. It's
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: gotten great reviews. You have an amazing agent. His name
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: is Richard Abatte. Shout out to Richard, really fascinating stuff.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping it's.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: A great success for you after all the hard work.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Keith, O'Brien for coming on The Favorites. Catch every episode
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