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Jia Jiang: Creating Your Rejection Proof Bold Mindset · The Bold Lounge

0:07
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: Every week we'll hear from someone who has taken the leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: Today we have Zha Zheng.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: Zha is the world's foremost expert on rejection.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: He is the founder and CEO of WooJoo Learning, a company that trains organizational employees to become fearless.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Zha's story started when several years after his career in the corporate world, he took a risk and stepped into the unknown world of entrepreneurship, which resulted in everyone's biggest fear, rejection.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: This became the catalyst that set Jah on the path to his true calling to conquer the fear of rejection.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Jah embarked on a personal quest and started a video blog to face the 100 days of rejection.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: His journey revealed a world that was hidden in plain sight, a world where rejection is an advantage instead of a setback, and where there are opportunities behind every rejection.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: It has become Jah's mission to help others discover the world for themselves and understand how to use rejection as a positive in your life that you can move forward.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: His talks are powerful and empowering, and he has a story that is shared across business and popular media, including MPR, Bloomberg Business Week, The Guardian, CNN, Time Magazine, and others.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: He holds a Bachelor's of Computer Science from Brigham Young and a Masters of Business Administration from Duke University.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the bold lounge, Ja.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: Hey Lee, thank you for having me.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna jump right into being bold.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: We've had some time in the green room, and I'm really curious about your definition.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: What does being bold mean to you?
2:25
SPEAKER_00: Being bold means knowing your comfort zone, but waiting to be able to expand it.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: So it's really getting out of your comfort zone in the sense of what feels what safe, what feels obviously comfortable, but in the sense of it's what you know.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: It's known, right?
2:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we we'll have this comfort zone, what we like to do, right?
2:45
SPEAKER_00: Where we're we have a routine, you know, we have a job and we know what what we're doing, what we'll without we're not gonna have any repercussions for anything like potentially negative, but being bold is knowing the upside of getting out of that comfort zone and wanting to do that and test it in a way that make you excited, make you like feel fun, you know, but also get that reward if you're getting out of that comfort zone.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of people don't leave the comfort zone or don't want to as much because it's scary, right?
3:14
SPEAKER_01: There's fear.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: So when did you, if you have a moment or a time in your life that you lived outside your comfort zone or you made a move, what is one of those moments that comes to mind for you?
3:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was uh over 10 years ago after I started my own company and I got rejected with an investment.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: My first thought came to my mind was I'm not good enough.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, I did this guy who rejected me, he knows more business than I do.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: So if he didn't like me, you know, probably um should try something else.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: But then I was like, you know, this sucks.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: I can't think this way.
3:44
SPEAKER_00: If I think this way, I can't be successful.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: So I'd be like, how can I overcome this fear of rejection?
3:49
SPEAKER_00: So I did this project called 100 Days of Rejection Therapy, which is I recorded myself getting rejected every day on purpose for 100 days, and I posted this on YouTube.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: So that was really the like the turning point of my life because it's the first time in my life I felt I really I actually did something really bold.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: But it turned out to be so much fun and so much you know fulfilling, you know, after all those years.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Was your intention when you did that to get people to watch you, or was it twofold?
4:17
SPEAKER_01: Was there some other reason you wanted to try being rejected for a hundred days?
4:22
SPEAKER_01: Or where does that idea come from?
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Hey, I think I'd like to not only be rejected 100 days in a row, but I want to actually record it and then show the world.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: What makes someone want to do that?
4:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there are a few layers to this.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it'd be too simple to say I just have one reason, right?
4:38
SPEAKER_00: The first reason is I really want to overcome my fear.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: I'd be like, you know, if I do this by myself, I'm pretty sure I'll quit.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: But every time I've done well in my life is I've gone to do something and then tell the world.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: So I call this like a baby shower shout.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: I actually did this in a baby shower, you know.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: I too for all the friends and family members who come to my to my place, I tell them I'm gonna be an entrepreneur.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: Now I have no way out because they'll they'll know.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: So this time I did the biggest baby shower shout I thought possible, which was I tell the world and started a vlog and to document myself.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Now I can't back out.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: So that's number one reason.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: I want to overcome my fear of rejection.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: And then secondly, I want to have some fun.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, I startup life wasn't fun, like it was fun, but it wasn't.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: I was like, how can I use my creativity?
5:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I have I'm just my ideas are jumping around.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, uh what how can I be creative?
5:25
SPEAKER_00: And lastly, you know, I'll be lying if I say, you know, if I be I hope someone watches because it helps my company, you know, because I I made a my company was I made a uh like a web app and no one was using it.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: I was begging people, literally on the street in my office, used to use it, nobody was using it.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Then I was like, you know, what if I this thing, you know, turned out someone would be watching me, then I tell them about my business so they can drive more traffic to my website.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: In the end, that website didn't didn't work at all.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: But all the attention and traffic that came to my vlog turned into this career for me.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: Now I just help people overcome their fear of rejection.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: What in your life when it comes to rejection had you experienced before you did that?
6:05
SPEAKER_01: What was your normal experience or how did you handle rejection prior to that moment where you went public with it?
6:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there are many times, you know, when I was waking up, I I always wanted to be this inventor, you know.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be like coming up with ideas that I can this idea can turn into viral.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: I I even have that disease now.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: I just want something to to invent something.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, about what in the late 90s, 1990s, right?
6:30
SPEAKER_00: I came up with this idea that hey, what if I put like a capillar tractor uh like a like a uh on a bottom, there some wheels on the bottom of my shoes, so my sh I can just slide on my shoes and can turn it on and off, right?
6:44
SPEAKER_00: It's normally it's a shoe, then I can just start skating if I want to.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: So I got a patent.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, I got a patent, I went to the uh uh school library, college library, and got this patent fighting process.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: I drew this chart, I was like, this is what it's gonna look like.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna follow this patent.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Then I sent it to my family, you know.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: My family, and and they look at this, it's like, you're even putting the wrong word, like this is the wrong English word.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, I just came to America at the time and my English wasn't good.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: He was like, Learn English, and you know, why don't you focus on learning English before you think about step one is what your dad said.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: And then I was like, Oh, okay.
7:17
SPEAKER_00: And he was like, This is I'm just stops thinking about that.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have a plan, and this plan is acceptable to me and to my family.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: We'll just learn English, get my education, get a job, then maybe I'll do something later on.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: So I found it up and put it in the drawer, and it was like a couple years later, this thing Heaty came out.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm sure you've ever heard of Heaty, right?
7:34
SPEAKER_01: You've seen I've seen, yeah, yeah.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, dude, that could be my idea.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: So that's one thing that I was really afraid of rejection.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's not about afraid of rejection, it's like someone reject me.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, cool.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: That's that's you know, that means I'm not good.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: So that fear made me not wanting to fight back or to advocate for myself and constantly look for other people's opinions and their approval.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: So that was really the manifestation of my fear of rejection before I've been public with this.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you kind of went zero to 100.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: Is that your personality?
8:05
SPEAKER_01: Of like, I really stayed away from it to I'm like totally in.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: There is something about being an entrepreneur that we don't know the middle.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: We know failure and we know whatever we've defined as success or accomplishment, you know, with regard to whether it's a project or a work or what we're doing.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: But this middle space where it's not go big and it's not fail, like it's a very confusing land.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: Do you ever feel like that?
8:29
SPEAKER_00: Yes, but a little bit nuanced.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's not just like on on the opposite end.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: Because if I just go full blown, like going out, get get rejected, right?
8:38
SPEAKER_00: And then getting hurt every day, then I think I don't think I will last very long.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I will quit very easily.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, without a purpose, right?
8:45
SPEAKER_00: I have a purpose, but also had a superpower, which was I won't have fun.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the thing.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Like have fun being rejected.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the thing is, I think I feel people love pleasure, people hate pain.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever heard of pickleball job?
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Because there's other ways you can have fun, like there are other ways, like why but the thing is, I feel like doing getting rejected, doing that, it's actually fun because I can come up with my own ways of getting rejected.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I use my creativity.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: So now the thing is I still use my pleasure.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Like the reason I wasn't wanting to get out of my comfort zone was because there's pleasure, there's comfort in here outside of pain.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't want the pain.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: But if I can bring that pleasure outside that comfort zone and take me, you know, just like a pack of joy with me on my journey into you know this uh discomfort, then the fun would actually fuel me.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: So everything I do outside of my comfort zone, I always try to have fun because that's what I'm holding on to.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like a patch, like your joy patch.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my joy patch, exactly.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: We need a coffee patch underneath that, but yeah, yeah.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: So it actually became a book.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: That was your first book, right?
9:51
SPEAKER_01: So your first book, How I Bet Fear and Became Invincible Through 100 Days of Rejection.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: What do you feel was one of or a few of your learnings that you take away from that that are essential for us to capture?
10:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the first of all was how much we have rejection in our own head, right?
10:12
SPEAKER_00: So we we live in a society where we're everyone, we're supposed to like this idea we get along, we're trying to not offend other people, right?
10:19
SPEAKER_00: So, which is good.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to offend other people.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: However, that fear actually starts putting tons of constraints in my mind where I can do this, I cannot do that, right?
10:28
SPEAKER_00: And that permeates into my own ideas.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes I feel like, oh, that that idea is not good.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: That idea is like that's not gonna work.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just constantly rejecting myself.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't try things because I was afraid of you know offending other people.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: So now there's ways that I learned that you can be very bold without offending other people, but I tried out your ideas.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: In fact, if your idea gets lukewarm acceptance, whatever proposal you have, if people are like, oh, that sounds pretty good, oh yeah, I like that, then that's a bad idea because like people don't care about lukewarm stuff.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: It's the window stuff, people are like, that's not that's crazy, that's not gonna work, man.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: That's my favorite conversation, honestly, because then I'm like, okay, tell me poke holes in it, tell me like what you think it doesn't make sense.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: And look, I will say probably I want to, I was gonna say nine out of ten, but I'll be kind to myself eight out of ten times.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: Usually, when I tell someone who knows me, knows what I'm doing, you know.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't go and tell the person as I'm checking out uh the grocery store, but you know, like I'm talking to someone who's in my world, I want to know why they think it's gonna fail.
11:28
SPEAKER_01: Do you do the same thing?
11:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do, but also I want strong emotion because if that's like, oh my god, dude, stop that, it's not gonna work.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: That's whack.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's that's whack.
11:38
SPEAKER_00: It's the whack ideas that really get traction.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: Like when I tell people I'm gonna get rejected every day for 100 days, people are like, just dude, that's that's crazy.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: Do your work, right?
11:48
SPEAKER_00: It's the whack ideas that's really because you struck the cord.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: It's the whack idea, there's really whack ideas that that protect you those ideas.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Other people wouldn't do that.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: So when you do that and do that well and do that creatively, do that with like an artist mindset.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: I feel I was rejection artists.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm trying to make artistry out of rejection.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Then I'm able to do something that was so fantastic, so unique that other people didn't touch.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: And so if you're trying to be bold, but people are like, Oh, that idea is good, I like that.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: And then you're like, that's not bold enough.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: You want people to get strong, like like a visceral, either be like, that's the best idea I've ever heard.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, that's great.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Or you'll be like, that's never gonna work.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, one of two extremes, you might have gotten you might get nothing, but you might have gotten something.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: What did you learn from having your rejection exposed and on display?
12:36
SPEAKER_01: I think that's one thing as an entrepreneur that levels up a lot of things, you know.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: There are, you know, when you're working at your job in corporate, people know what your job is and what you're doing, and they know when certain things happen, but it isn't like it's broadcast and it isn't like it's noticeable.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: But like you fail when you're in these seats that we're in, people know.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: And that is scary in itself.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: What did you learn from having it on display?
13:00
SPEAKER_00: I feel like people don't care as much as you think they do about your free jacket and that's that's huge.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's huge.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's like that that's what I call it.
13:09
SPEAKER_01: That's a big learning.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people are not thinking about you as much as you think they are.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: No, you think they're like every day you're like, I'm in a certain position, so I fail.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: Everyone will be looking at me, everyone will be talking behind my backs, they're gonna they're gonna laugh at me before dinner and after getting up.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: They might not like me.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no one cares, man.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: Because people care about their own failures and rejections and you know, insecurities and and fear.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: They do their own thing.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people are focused on them.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you fail, really people are just like, yeah, whatever, man.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think if you're not failing, you're not evolving, honestly.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't I'm like not like, hey, today I want to fail, but you're obviously not stagnant if you're failing too.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh for this, you know, what when you're trying something, it's not working.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: So I do think it's probably a sign of you're trying, you're doing something, right?
13:58
SPEAKER_01: But again, on display is another level.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: The vulnerability pieces are pretty high.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but Lee, there's there's a hidden side of this.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: The thing is, people don't care about your failures as much as you think they do, they actually probably don't at all, but they care about your success.
14:12
SPEAKER_00: If you win, though, they'll be like, My, that's great.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: How can I do it?
14:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, they'll start trying to learn from you, they're gonna start pay attention to you.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: So I tell people if you really care about what people think about you, try things.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: If you fail, no, people usually don't care.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: If you succeed, they're gonna try to be like pay attention to you.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: So that's actually there's more upside than downside, but we always focus on the downside, like, oh man, I don't want to fail.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't this be shameful.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: That'll be embarrassing.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, most people only show the upside, Josh.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: So, like, I think that's the thing.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: That like it feels very scary, vulnerable, negative to say, hey, today is a bad day and this is why.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: People do do that, but you know, I'm always like when things are happening with us and we're in year six, I'm always like, Yep, this would be great if Netflix was here right now to see this real freaking moment of being an entrepreneur because they had some show called CEO, I think it was, and they had incredible entrepreneurs on there, but they were all like very established.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't mean that they didn't work hard, it just it didn't mean they were given it.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean like that, but it wasn't like people you could say, Oh yeah, I'm just like her, right?
15:12
SPEAKER_01: So I thought it would be really great if Netflix, if you're listening to, like do that, but with entrepreneurs that maybe no one knows, right?
15:18
SPEAKER_01: I do think that everyone works hard if you're an entrepreneur.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: There's no joke about it, but it's interesting because there's these ups and downs, but again, they're not televised, they're not on YouTube.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of vulnerability.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: Where did you learn to be so vulnerable and be okay with that?
15:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think doing 100 days of rejection therapy really helped me a lot.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: Like that kind of gave me this thing in life where it'd be like, if I can be true to myself, it helps me to be vulnerable to myself.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'd be like, I know how I feel, and I'm doing this anyway.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: So, and again, people people don't care about your failure.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: They just don't care, they don't care, they just don't care about your failure.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you think they do, you think they do.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: They might know about it, but they're not gonna judge you about it.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: I think we we have a fear of being judged, right?
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but the the thing is when you succeed though, those all the vulnerable moments, all those failures, all those obstacles you overcame, now they become asset.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: People are getting so inspired by them that go, oh my gosh, look at him or her, like what what she did, all that before leading up to the success, right?
16:19
SPEAKER_00: So people don't care about this thing, but when you when at the end you achieve something, people are like, Oh my gosh, you know, this is amazing.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: I love a comeback story.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, I totally love that.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm a Red Sox fan, so I have to love it.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there you go.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 80s and years of uh failure.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're having quite a season and we're in a losing streak right now, but anyway, we're gonna come back.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: I know it.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: There's roller coaster, yeah.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: You learn from those, right?
16:44
SPEAKER_01: But your brain is like doing something different, right?
16:46
SPEAKER_01: Your brain is saying, John, don't get on that, don't show people that.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: Is there anything you wish you had shown more of or less of in those hundred days?
16:53
SPEAKER_00: No, I think I had a I had a great time.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, because I always thought about this kind of a thing, right?
16:59
SPEAKER_00: Like this, I had this conversation with my kids, right?
17:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, what if it's a superpower for me to go back to it any time in my life in the back?
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Like I would just go back to those times and make different decisions, right?
17:08
SPEAKER_00: There are movies and novels made of this, right?
17:11
SPEAKER_00: But I was like, I don't want to do that because I already experienced that.
17:14
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to do that again.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: That's boring.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, I want to try something new, so I don't want to go back and change anything because that thing happened and I loved it, and now I get to do something even more amazing based on all the experience I gained.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: And then during that rejection, was it just rejection about anything?
17:29
SPEAKER_01: Was it rejection for things you were building?
17:31
SPEAKER_01: What were you rejected a hundred?
17:33
SPEAKER_00: No, just just everything.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: So as silly as it gets, because I'll give you some of the things I did, right?
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Some of the no's I got, and I'll tell you some of the yeses I got, which is the really interesting part.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: So the first day I started, I asked a hundred dollars from a stranger, right?
17:45
SPEAKER_00: And the second day I tried to get a burger refill after getting a burger for lunch.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: And then I went to Costco, I tried to get a uh, you know, try to speak under intercom.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: I said, Can I talk to everyone in the store?
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Then I went to a Petsmart and tried to get a haircut.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: I asked for a German shepherd cut and they said no.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: But the thing is, then after that, people started saying yes to me.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: Like one day I went to uh uh I had a soccer ball and knocked on a stranger's door, and I was like, Can I play soccer in your backyard?
18:11
SPEAKER_00: He was like, Come on in.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: And then one day I flagged on a police officer, I kind of pulled him over and I said, Officer, can I drive you a car?
18:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, I just like I never heard this before.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Why not?
18:21
SPEAKER_00: So I drove a police car.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, he said yes?
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he said yes, and uh, you know, I had different techniques that I used to try to get a yes, which I do in my book, right?
18:30
SPEAKER_00: And I got better and better at the end because I actually know what to say without lying, you know, I'll be authentic, but also getting being more persuasive with the right energy and right wording and right, you know, just give and take.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: So my most famous one was I went to uh a crispy cream and asking them to make me donuts that look like Olympic rings.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's no way they're gonna do that.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, very cool.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: There was no way they're gonna do that.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: So I thought I was gonna go in and make a joke, then just leave.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: And then the donut maker took me so seriously.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: She was like, you know, how does the donut look like if he we don't want to get stuck?
19:02
SPEAKER_00: I can do this.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, what's it gonna look like?
19:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, dude, I just don't get rejection.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: So 15 minutes later, she came out with a box of donuts that looked like I want to take rings, and she gave it to me for free.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: She's just like this is my treat.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: And that video went viral.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: It got millions and millions of were they warm?
19:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, John.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: That's a real important factor.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Krispy cream, were they warm when she gave them?
19:21
SPEAKER_00: I think they were pretty warm when they gave it to me.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: But when I took it home, what I had done for dessert that night, it was it was cold, it was sweet.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, the sugar just just burst.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: Your sugar was definitely higher, yes, for sure.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: So one of the things one of my friends said to me when I was thinking about changing jobs, it's like Lee, you don't get what you don't ask for.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: She might have not been the originator, but I don't even know if she realizes how much that stuck with me.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: Is that one of the learnings in the sense of you might think it's a no, but it's a yes, and then you're surprised.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: Or do you think we go into a lot of situations thinking the most negative thing will happen?
19:56
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: Like we gotta ask.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times, you know, I I think this is a little bit cultural.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: There, I think we're talking about, you know, uh, so to me, I come from an Asian background where you know, the idea is you work hard enough, people will recognize you.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: Now, I know a lot of your audiences like are women, and actually, I think even in the Western culture, women actually are less likely to ask for things than men.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's somehow uh there's stuff pretty strong study on this, like the data that back this up that it's real, yeah.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: And women perform better in a lot of like in actually, probably more than 50% of the chance like women perform outperform men, but they ask way less in the way less like risk taking.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: The result is that's a long-term result.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: You see this, you know, income discrepancy.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: A lot of that is because if you don't ask, if you don't take risks, a lot of times you don't get the positions you want.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes you ask, you don't get it, right?
20:46
SPEAKER_00: But if you don't ask, people just assume you're not ambitious enough.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes you just have to ask.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: And it's just way more upside than downside when you ask.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: I think we think of worst case scenario, and then when we go through that, like what's the worst thing that could happen?
20:59
SPEAKER_01: They say no.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: You go to the next person or the next thing, or you learn.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: You learn something as to, okay, no problem.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: I feel like when I'm pitching something, if someone gives me a no, like I feel that's a gift sometimes because I'd rather have a no than someone who's afraid to say no and I waste a lot of time, right?
21:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, the worst I people would say that the worst can happen is no.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: I would say the worst thing that can happen is you say no to yourself.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: That's worse than anything else.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: That's the very worst thing, right?
21:24
SPEAKER_00: That's what I mean.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: Because just killed it right there.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: It just is over.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you don't even let yourself try.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: If anyone's gonna say no, let the world say no to you.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, the world will say no to you a lot because no one's gonna say yes to you 100% of the time.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: In fact, if you're ambitious enough, you're gonna get way more no's than yeses.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: But if you don't ask, you're 100% no.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: So you had a hundred days of rejection.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: How many days did you get rejected out of a hundred?
21:47
SPEAKER_01: Was it a high proportion?
21:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I recorded at the end.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: I I started tabulating.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: I got 49 no's and 51 yeses.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: Whoa, okay.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: Even though I started the whole process with goal, I'd be like, I should.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Get rejected.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: That was my original goal.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: But later on, I got so many yeses.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm just gonna try this.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: This guy, I don't care about a yes or no.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: I just want to just get out of my comfort zone and have some fun.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: I want to back myself up.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: I want to ask in the right way.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: So I was pretty detached from the result by the end.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: And I felt like by me detaching, I'm able to get more yeses because you know I got the right energy.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm just like, hey, you know, let's have some fun.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna make books.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: I want to negotiate and back and forth and see what happens.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nice.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: When we think about your first book, rejection proof, and moving into your second book, what happened in between first book, second book with rejection and your work?
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Great question.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: So I had a lot of uh like almost like a career change, but I didn't want it.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: So after I wrote my book, right, I gave this very popular TED talk.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: And you got like, you know, over 11 million views, you know, it's one of the most viewed TED Talk of that year.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: And because of that, people start asking me to speak at their um conferences and events, and then asked, you know, people compliment me on my writing, you know, and I was like, people are like, Ja, you're a really good writer, you should keep writing.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm done with this.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: I wrote my I hate writing, I wrote my first book.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: So I told myself, right, and that I'm not a writer, I'm this entrepreneur.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: I grew up wanting to be Bill Gates.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, I actually met Bill Gates, you know, when I was a teenager in China before coming to America.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: That's how he inspired me, you know, and to be this tech guy.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: So I'll be like, I don't care about writing.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll speak that makes some money, which is good.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: But I'm a tech guy.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Let me build this app.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: What did you want to build an app about?
23:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, have you built more than one app?
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, build multiple apps.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: I built one, none of them are so interesting.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I want to be an app guy, but the thing is, that's higher, and and it became easier for me to raise money because I became pretty famous, right?
23:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, after this book and stuff.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, more visibility.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm like, you know, I'm gonna raise the money and do this.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: It was during the pandemics, right?
23:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, we all had our burnout moments during the pandemics, you know, and we're so isolated.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: So after I was like, man, this sucks, this isolation.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: I feel a little bit depressed, you know, and I'm pretty sure a lot of us are.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So to feel better, I started going to drive to the beach and start writing every day.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: I just write and I feel better.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: And then afterward, and I always feel like you know, after that, and I will go back to my home and do get on Zoom and talking to people, I just feel this reluctance.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Then I was just like, oh, why am I chasing this Bill Gates dream if I don't like the things that will get there?
24:22
SPEAKER_00: So I like the outcome of becoming this entrepreneur, successful entrepreneur, being a cover of a magazine.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: I like that, or you know, have this company ring the bell at NASDAQ, right?
24:32
SPEAKER_00: IPO this thing.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: I love that outcome, this image of outcome.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't like the process.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: So I was like, what activities do I actually like?
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Is writing.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: And so many people told me I'd just brush them away.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: So why is that?
24:44
SPEAKER_00: Why can't I just embrace that part of me where I can become a writer?
24:48
SPEAKER_00: And maybe I could write a really good book or multiple books that make me really happy when I embrace the process.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: Why do I have to chase that tech dream?
24:55
SPEAKER_00: That's where I started having this uh aha moment.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: And then I did a final career change.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm no longer a tech guy.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm a writer.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm very happy.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: Like I feel like you know, when my action and who I am, who I want to be, and what I'm actually doing, when they align with it become congruent with each other, and then I'll feel like I'm happy.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: So uh that's what I did.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: So it's a different feeling that you even have, right?
25:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: So you wrote Easy Discipline, an unconventional way to achieve ambitious things that just came out in July.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: What is different about this book?
25:28
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, it's not the hundred days, but primarily what did you want people to really walk away with with this one?
25:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a little bit of what I just said, right?
25:36
SPEAKER_00: So most people think about they want an outcome, they want success, right?
25:41
SPEAKER_00: But most people don't enjoy the process.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: And most people think about they want to grind through the process so they can get to that part at the end of the rainbow.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: You know, but in the middle, it's tough.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: They would they don't don't enjoy the daily thing.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: So they think about what I call this a hard discipline, which was your outcome-based, your results-oriented, so that you just do the hard things.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: But the people who actually did real changes in industries, to be, you know, they they change the way we live, they change the way we see each other, how business is done, those people aren't like hating themselves to the top.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: They love themselves to the top, they love what they did.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: In fact, they're even a little bit addicted to their work.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: They use enjoyment to fuel them to go as far as I get as they could.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: So, this whole book is about how do you love the work you do, and actually, how do you do the work you love?
26:30
SPEAKER_00: So that's what this book is about.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I love that.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh, a lot of love there.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: In the sense of the book itself, do you feel like there is a through line with regard to continuing to be rejected and continuing to know that it's okay?
26:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Looking back, the reason I was able to do this hundred days of rejection therapy and it has such an impact.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: Like I really started the movement, I feel like I did this, like I was the first one who did it on social media, getting rejected on purpose.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: And then that 10 years later, it was still going strong.
27:03
SPEAKER_00: People saw what I did and they started doing that on uh TikTok.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, I got hundreds of millions of views of people just all over the world doing this.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: Some of them know me, some of them don't even know me, right?
27:12
SPEAKER_00: So, but the the reason I was able to start this was because I brought fun into rejection.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, and if this is just a hard thing, it's like, yeah, just daily grind, then it would suck.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: But I'm I'm such a jovial like uh feeding to that rejection, and then I was able to take this far.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: And then later on turn this into like art, right?
27:32
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm making art with each interaction.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: That's what this this book is about.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's how do you have enjoyment?
27:39
SPEAKER_00: So easy stands for enjoyment, artistry, systems, and yourself.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: So, how do you actually have enjoyment and have artistry and then set up systems so you can show up every day and have what you're doing aligned with who you are, with your core being, right?
27:55
SPEAKER_00: So I feel like this looking back on 100 days of rejection therapy, give me the kernel, the starting point of this new book.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's definitely something that's a process, right?
28:04
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think all rejection feels good.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: No.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: And that's not what you're saying.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: You're saying that you don't know unless you try, and then you know, when you go through that, the ultimate thing you want to be striving for is to be yourself and to be joyful and to have fun, which you've talked about.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: So if someone's sitting there right now going, you know, I don't know, Jaw's crazy because I think rejection is sad and bad.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: And it last time I got rejected, it really hurt me.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: What do you want to say to those folks?
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: So try to have some fun with rejection.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: Really, just you know, think about can you make the things you're asking, can you make that piece of art?
28:42
SPEAKER_00: When you ask something from someone, can you actually focus on the how you're asking rather than the result?
28:48
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you get a yes, sometimes you get no, right?
28:50
SPEAKER_00: But if you focus on how you do it, you focus on your your process, you focus on like having the best time, being more creative, right?
28:57
SPEAKER_00: Having more partnership with the other person.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: And and then when the other person said no and you like negotiate, if you focus on that, this thing becomes less of a drag, less of a fear rather than something you anticipate.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: In fact, right now, I feel like it's a disease for me.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, every day I walk around, I see things, I'm like, I'd be cool if I ask.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, I gotta ask because I have to ask.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Because don't ask, I'm missing out a good opportunity to have fun.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: So that mindset is like a superpower.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: Now you can ask for things.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the more you do this, right?
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Those dreads go away because now you know how to do it.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: You know how not to offend anyone when you're asking.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: So try it.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: Try to have some fun with it.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: One of the things several coaches have, you know, they ask this question potentially is like, you know, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail?
29:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: So that also means that you wouldn't be rejected, you wouldn't be judged, you wouldn't be X, Y, Z.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: So I think having that mindset of everything's possible, but if I don't even try or don't even ask, it's not, right?
29:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, so it's real.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: I hear that a lot.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: What would you do if you can't fail?
29:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna flip that on his head.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: I want to say, what would you do if you know you for sure fail, but you would do it anyway.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: That's really easy discipline.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, if you if you're like the results might or might not be good, but the thing that I'm doing is so I want to do that anyway.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: If you're passionate about it, you want it.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's thrilling.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm thrilled about the action, I'm thrilled about the hunt.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Then do that because now you don't care about the result, you just like do the hunt.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: And the hunt itself, the more you work you put in, the more passion, the more artistry you put in, the better result you will get.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: So rejection proof kind of gets you started.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: You understand, you understand how to get out of the gate with it, and then easy discipline really helps you keep going and keep evolving in that process.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: And really just I I know, like, you know, this is kind of a uh and everyone says this, right?
30:48
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a cliche, you know, we're look where everyone is looking for happiness.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: I feel like easy discipline really got me the true happiness because it is about align who you are and what you do.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: And when you're aligned, you know, your being and your doing, then you're really happy.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the easy framework enjoyment artistry system in you really is a great space to start.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's not difficult to follow or to even begin.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's where we're going to end.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: Is if someone's out there right now, like I'm ready, I'm gonna do the thing that's been scaring me, or I'm gonna ask that question, or I'm going to attempt what I think is impossible.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: What is your guidance and advice to them?
31:27
SPEAKER_00: Find out what part of it is the most fun for you.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: Use your curiosity, right?
31:32
SPEAKER_00: What's most curious for you?
31:36
SPEAKER_00: And do that.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: And that's the starting point.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, find the joy in it.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: What if they say there's no joy at all in it?
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Try something else.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Try something else, man.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: If if you're if there's no joy in anything you do, do something else.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: All right.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: Zha Zhang, everyone, two books.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: The the most recent one, Easy Discipline.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Please check those out.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh all the information is in the notes below.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge and sharing your bold journey with us today, Zhao.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me, Lee.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.