Latest / UNMASKED with Wesley Farnsworth / When Faith Turns Into Control: A Cult Survivor’s Story

Transcript

When Faith Turns Into Control: A Cult Survivor’s Story · UNMASKED with Wesley Farnsworth

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What if the greatest spiritual danger you ever faced didn't
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look dark or extreme, but familiar, trusted and wrapped in
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faith? Today's guest thought he was
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building a Christ centered marriage until subtle control,
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isolation and spiritual manipulation slowly took
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everything apart. This is a story about deception
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that didn't announce itself lost, that reshaped a family and
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a God who rescues not just from cults, but from lies and about
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who he is and how he works. Welcome to Unmasked, where we
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take off the filters and get real about faith, failure, and
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finding freedom. I'm your host, Wesley
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Farnsworth, a dad, veteran, author, and a man who's learned
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that God does his best work in the middle of our mess.
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Each episode will have honest conversations with people who
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have walked through addiction, pain or doubt, and with pastors,
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leaders, and everyday believers who are learning to live and
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lead authentically. So take a breath, pull up a
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chair, and let's get real. This is Unmasked.
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Today on UNMASKED, I'm joined by Peter Young.
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Peter's story begins like many others, love, marriage and
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faith, but takes an unexpected turn when he unknowingly becomes
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entangled in a small, destructive cult that slowly
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isolated his family, distorted truth, and ultimately cost him
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his marriage. But what makes Peter's story so
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powerful isn't that he escaped, but what God restored.
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Today's conversation isn't about fear or sensationalism.
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It's about testimony about what the Lord has done and how truth
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brings freedom and how faith can be rebuilt after profound
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spiritual deception. Peter, I'm really grateful to
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have you with us today here on Unmasked.
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Thank you for being with us to Share your story.
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Wesley, thanks for having me. Appreciate it very much.
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Absolutely. It's it's truly my pleasure.
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I'm really looking forward to hearing your story.
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So Peter, I'd love for you to start with the where you
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wherever you feel that the story truly begins, not necessarily
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with the cult, but with your marriage and your faith before
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you ever realized that something was wrong.
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What did it look like in those early years?
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Well, you know now when I share my my story and my testimony, I
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often think back to the story in Luke chapter 8 where the man is
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possessed by legion of demons and he's uncontrollable with
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living in caves. Christ meets him, heals him, and
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the man begs Christ to let him follow him in Christ.
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I'm paraphrasing and says, no, I have something more important
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for you. Go home and tell your family
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what the Lord has done for you, which is our testimony.
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And so I would imagine that man's testimony was really wild
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or really bizarre as he's telling the story about, hey,
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you know what I used to do? And then the Lord saved him.
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And at times my story can sound really bizarre as well, but yet
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it's my story. It's messy and bizarre and odd,
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but it's a victorious. And so I love sharing it because
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really points to how powerful our Lord is.
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So I didn't grow up in a cult. Never thought I'd join one.
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Grew up in a strong Christian home, youngest of five boys.
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My parents are still married, went to church to, you know, the
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Christian summer camps. As a teenager, I did become a
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Christian. I was baptized.
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All of this was before I met the future cult leader who was a guy
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who we called Uncle Robert, and I had heard of him before I even
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met my future wife. I call her Paige.
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And my book Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger.
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It's the memoir of my story. And so when I met Paige at a
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singles Bible study, I was living in Pocatello, ID.
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I was a weekend sports anchor, weekday sports reporter at the
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local ABC affiliate and fell in love pretty quickly.
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But after like 2 weeks of dating I was 90% sure I want to marry
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her. But I knew I needed to meet her
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father and this Uncle Robert guy because she talked about them
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all the time and so the first time I met her father was really
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weird. It's about a month into our
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dating for Bocatel. I drove up to northern Idaho and
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it's a long drive so I had to go to the bathroom.
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So I went down the hall, use the bathroom.
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I'm a guy. So I stood up to pee as soon as
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I opened the door. There he was, my future
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father-in-law, which I didn't know it at the time.
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And he said, you know, I, I heard you go to the bathroom and
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in our house, the men need to sit to pee.
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And I thought, wow, this is really weird.
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And and then he said the phrase that I would hear hundreds of
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times, if not thousands over the next 20 years.
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Uncle Robert taught us that. And if Uncle Robert taught him
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or us anything, it was unassailable.
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You weren't allowed to question it.
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So I thought, well, he's a little odd but harmless.
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And then a few months later I met Uncle Robert for the first
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time again. Thought he was weird, but I
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didn't think it was a danger and I was admittedly in love.
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So we got married. And for the first few years of
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our marriage I thought I was the best husband ever, paid was the
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best wife ever. We were set in the bar for all
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time in terms of what a strong Christian marriage should look
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like. And early on, Paige at 2
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instances really declared her a 100% unwavering support for the
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institution of marriage, how she would never go along with a
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divorce as she really saved her parents from divorcing because
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her father was going to leave her mother.
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And she basically talked him out of it.
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So I thought, wow, how blessed I am to marry this woman.
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But slowly and surely over the years, Uncle Robert's control
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increased. So we lived in Idaho, he lived
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in Southern California. He was not related to anybody.
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You know, I'm 6 foot 5 from, you know, Northern European stock.
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So is Paige. She's blonde hair, blue eyed.
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Her family's from Northern Europe.
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Robert Booty is real. Uncle Robert, born and raised in
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Syria, met Paige's parents at a tiny seminary in Fresno, CA in
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the early 70s before Paige was even born.
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So Paige grew up where Uncle Robert was the expert on
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everything. When I say everything, I mean,
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you know, just like telling the men how to pee, right?
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He was the expert on everything, the go to guy.
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And so she knew no other world. Whereas I always thought it was
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very odd. It was very bizarre.
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Paige's relationship with this guy or Paige's parents
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relationship with this guy. And right before Paige and I
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even got married or engaged, Uncle Robert had convinced Paige
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that she was not a true Christian.
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Paige had been baptized. She had publicly professed her
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faith, but Uncle Robert convinced her that she wasn't.
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And then shortly thereafter, he did the same thing with Paige's
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father, convinced him that he was a demonic fraud.
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And all these years he'd been lying, you know, fooling
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everybody. And thus Uncle Robert came in
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and saved the day and helped my father-in-law to be saved.
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And then about a year or two later, my mother-in-law, and she
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supposedly had so many demons in her that when Uncle Robert
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exorcised them, they came out and made a sound like a shouting
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horse, whatever that's supposed to sound like.
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So this is kind of the backdrop to where, you know, he acted as
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a gatekeeper to God. And so I would hear these
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stories and and I thought they were kind of crazy, but I love
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my wife and I went along to get along and she revered and adored
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this man and he wasn't going away.
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So there's a lot of cognitive dissonance for me, Wesley.
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And then there were a few moments early on when I thought,
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wow, this is, this is really bizarre and perhaps more than
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just bizarre, dangerous. Shortly after night, we met with
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Uncle Robert and we would have these conferences where he would
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drive up from Southern California to northern Idaho and
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Paige and I and our kids would drive up.
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We'd meet at Paige's parents house and we would just sit,
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listen to Uncle Robert for hours a day and he talked about how
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Roosevelt was a Jew and Truman was a Jew.
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And on 9/11, 80,000 people died and it was all but the Jews.
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And I realized that, you know, for him every plane crash,
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recession, you name it, was a Jewish conspiracy to dominate
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Christians. And for him it went all the way
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back to Jacob and Esau. And now Esau becomes Edom, which
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became modern Jewry. Jacob becomes the father of the
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12 tribes of Israel, which are modern and Christendom.
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What's instructive here is not just that he didn't like Jews,
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it's that all of his theories, or most of them really started
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off with a germ of truth. Esau does become Edom.
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It's in the Bible. There is a Jacob.
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There is an Esau. Jacob did steal the birthright,
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on and on. But then he would slowly but
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surely twist the truth or each and every Bible verse to give it
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his interpretation. So cult leaders don't just start
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off by spouting utter nonsense and lies.
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No one would follow them. He would start off with the
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truth He would read to us from the Bible and then over 5/10/15
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years with him giving his little twist and spin you'd be way away
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from the gospel and wonder how in the world you got here.
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Another example was early on Uncle Robert and my in laws told
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me and they were convinced that casinos were the true churches
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in America and that the churches that you and I would go to on a
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Sunday were just a waste of time because only he knew the true
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gospel. So all the pastors and all the
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churches that you and I would go to on a given Sunday were just
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spouting utter nonsense and lies and, and anybody could go into a
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casino and be blessed by the Lord regardless of their success
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in life, their education, bank account, etcetera.
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To which I would say, OK, I've got an open mind here.
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But when I go to a casino, which is rare, I see people worshiping
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the Lord. Excuse me, I see people
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worshipping money, not the Lord. And are there some churches
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whether whether you know, there are heretics?
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Yeah, probably a few. Everyone.
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I don't think so. But yet that was the aura that I
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questioned and my wife and in laws subscribe to.
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He was the answer to everything. Only he knew the true gospel.
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He was brilliant. And how lucky are we to be
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around him? And so again, I was the frog in
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the pot of boiling water. The pressure increased over the
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years and with every question, every time I questioned him, I
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was diminished further and further in my wife's eyes and
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Uncle Robert's eyes in my in laws eyes.
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So 1516 years into our marriage I remember Paige saying that she
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considered herself abal Abigail. She felt like Abigail.
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So I remember I had to read the story in the Bible because I
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wasn't 100% sure how it went. But Abigail was married to
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Nabal, who was a drunk and a surly, mean man or a fool.
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And I thought, well, wait a minute, If she's Abigail, I'm
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Nabal. I'm a drunken fool.
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Is that how she felt about me? I don't drink.
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And then in the Bible story, Nabal gets struck dead by the
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Lord and Abigail marries King David.
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And I thought, well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to
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figure out who King David is. In this little story.
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It's Uncle Robert, of course, because she revered him and and
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respected him in a way she never did me.
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And to, you know, kind of solidify that point.
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Around this time, we'd already had our five children.
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We were both in our 40s Uncle Robert had two boys and they
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were married and they had granddaughters.
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They had no grandsons. And Paige was adamant that that
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had to be rectified, that there's too much danger to, you
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know, the human population do not have Uncle Robert's DNA and
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bloodline continue. So she wanted to be a surrogate
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and provide Uncle Robert with a male heir, a male grandson
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through one of her sons. And I was repulsed by the idea
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and thankfully it never happened.
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But that kind of drove further the wedge between she and I and
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drove her further into the camp of of Uncle Robert.
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So, you know, about 20 years into our marriage, she finally
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decided to leave me. And at this point I had been now
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fully brainwashed. It took a long time of me
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doubting and questioning him, but slowly but surely I thought,
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well maybe I missed something. Maybe I missed some elemental
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truths of the Christian faith. And so I allowed him and my wife
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to convince me I wasn't saved, that I had missed something.
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So just like she had done and my in laws and all the other adults
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in our cult, which there weren't many, at most we were 50 to 20
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in size. But he was the other gatekeeper
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to God for all of us. He was the one that you know,
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would let you know when you are ready to be saved, which of
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course is wicked and a biblical. But I had allowed that to happen
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really in the hopes of improving my marriage, which it did not.
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So when she left me, she really tried to draw closer to him.
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And then she and Robert started to teach our five children that
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I was the devil, that I was Satan and a sorcerer and merely
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A bloodline and a sperm daughter, not really a true
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father. I possessed no true parenting
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qualities other than what an animal would in the wild.
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And I thought to myself as I saw these emails and at this time,
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you know, I'm a broken man. I've hit rock bottom.
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I'm convinced Uncle Roberts, right, that I'm filled with a
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legion demons. I'm capable of receiving
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salvation. My wife's left me.
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My kids think I'm the devil. I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep.
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None of my friends in the area or or extended family knew what
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was going on. So I was a wreck.
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I was really defenseless and barely a man at this point,
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afraid of my own shadow. But when I started to hear that
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line of thinking that I was merely a sperm donor to
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bloodline, I thought, wait a minute.
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You know, 2-3 years ago you thought Uncle Robert's bloodline
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and DNA and sperm were so precious that you wanted to be a
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surrogate to protect it. And now you're using these terms
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as a pejorative to denigrate me in the eyes of my children.
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I knew that was wicked. And they're teaching my children
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that the 5th commandment to the Bible didn't apply to me because
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it only applied to fathers who truly love their kids and love
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the mother. So the kids literally thought
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this. So I then started to reach out
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to my friends and family. When I say family, my parents,
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my brother's sister in law's, and none of them knew this was
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going on. They weren't involved at all.
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We were in Idaho and Montana this entire time.
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My family lived on the coasts. They knew there was an Uncle
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Robert. They didn't know much about him.
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They had no idea, but the Jewish conspiracies or casinos were
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churches on and on. But they immediately supported
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me, loved me. I prayed for me.
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And it was really that summer. This is going back to 2017 where
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I had, you know, been bounced along the bottom that the Lord
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opened my eyes and ears to the truth.
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He really peeled back the veil that I was saved.
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I'd never lost my salvation. Truly.
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A friend of mine told me that, you know, Peter, you were saved
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on the cross 2000 years ago. And he was right, of course.
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And I'd lost sight of that. And then it took about a year
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for me to really come out of the brainwashing, even though I'd
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only been brainwashed about two years.
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Took about a year to finally realize Uncle Robert was not the
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one that was going to save my marriage and bring Paige back to
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me. He was the one that caused all
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of this problem. Now, as a father and a husband,
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I also admit that I did not do a good job of protecting Paige, of
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protecting my kids from Uncle Robert.
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And that is my fault. And I take responsibility for
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that and I've asked for forgiveness of that.
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But it was a very difficult situation.
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It was horrible. It was horrific, the parental
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alienation on the kids and on me.
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So Paige eventually filed for divorce.
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The courts got involved and intervened because they
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immediately saw the cult influence and the parental
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alienation. And then I finally became strong
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enough with my faith and friends and family to then fight for my
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kids so that they would not have to stay in this cult like
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situation. And as I wrap up here with the
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story, I'll just, you know, again, I've, I've condensed over
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20 years there in about 10 minutes.
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I never thought I was in a cult. I never thought, hey, this is a
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cult. Uncle Robert's cult leader.
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I always say that you never know you are in a cult.
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You only know you were in one because cults come in all
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different shapes and sizes. But at their core, they share
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two things. One, they all have a leader and
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then 2, they start with undue manipulative mind control or
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brainwashing. And then from there they can go
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in wildly divergent areas. Thankfully, in our little cult,
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we had no physical abuse, no sexual abuse.
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It was all mental, spiritual and emotional.
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But it is real. And then when I was recovering,
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I remember thinking, you know, people were called a cult.
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Oh, it wasn't a cult. It wasn't that bad.
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It was dysfunctional and and evil, but not a cult.
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And then I read my first book on cults and I'm underlining and
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highlighting you half the book. And I realized, Yep, it was a
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cult and there was no escaping it.
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You know, this wasn't a cult. There is no such thing as a
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cult. So that is the story in and out
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of the cults. I now share the story on
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podcasts, I speak publicly, and I wrote my book Stop the Tall
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Man, Save the Tiger to use my story as a cautionary tale that
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cults are real, they can easily hide within society, and they
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are abusive. Wow, what a story and an
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experience that you had. You know, one of the things that
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you said is that you unwittingly, unwittingly married
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into a cult. As you look back now, what made
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it so hard to realize or recognize it at the time?
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Well, you know, you could say I was blinded by love when I grew
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up. When I thought of a cult.
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I would have thought of Jim Jones and Jonestown drinking the
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kool-aid, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, Branch Davidians,
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incidents like that. And those were truly cults, and
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they were horrific. But yet, you know, what we were
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in and what I experienced was a cult.
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But we didn't look like a cult. You know, Paige and her parents
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didn't look like a cult. Uncle Robert, while he's got an
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odd looking guy, didn't really look like a cult leader.
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We didn't live in a commune. We didn't shave our heads or
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wear fancy clothing or, you know, try and sell flowers on
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sidewalks to try and raise money.
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And you don't have to do all those things to be in a cult.
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Again, I go back to my 2 criteria.
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Have a leader that is, you know, fits all the mark, checks the
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boxes for a cult leader and have undue manipulative mind control.
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So when I first got married, Wesley, you know, he was in
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California, we were in Idaho. He didn't have as much control
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over us, certainly not over me and my family.
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But then over the years it it really grew exponentially.
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Yeah. You know, one of the things that
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I also am wondering is how did spiritualist, how did spiritual
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authorities slowly replace the healthy relationships in your
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marriage? Slowly, subtly, completely
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driven by Paige again in her mind.
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It was astonishing and almost shameful that I would question
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him because she grew up where why would you question him as he
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answered everything? And she would have never, you
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know, said, well, he's my savior, he's my God.
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She would not use that language. But yet I remember when she
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wrote out her testimony after she'd been quote UN quote saved
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by Uncle Robert. You know, in it Uncle Roberts
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mentioned like a dozen times and she mentions Jesus like 4 times.
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So she was the one that was constantly trying to engage him
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and involve him in our marriage at a higher level.
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At what point she could not see how unbiblical and unchristian
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this was, I don't know. But I remember there was a
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statement she made, you know, maybe a year or two before she
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left me where we had an issue, I think, with tithing.
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It was. And she did not like how I was
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not listening to Uncle Robert. And then she said something
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along the lines of, you know, you need to stop.
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I mean, I'm her Christian husband who's been faithful the
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entire time. I've never had an affair, never
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wanted affair. I love the woman.
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But she said some along the lines of, you need to quit
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trying to, you know, place a wedge in between me and Uncle
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Robert. And I'm thinking, can she hear
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herself? She's saying that to her
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husband. She doesn't want me to prevent a
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wedge between she and another man who's married to another
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woman. When I think back on it now, I
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remember thinking little at the time.
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I was feeling guilty. Oh, yeah, I shouldn't do this.
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You know, how dare I push Uncle Robert out of the way when now,
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if I could go back in time, I'd be like, yeah, I I I'm going to
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kick him out of your life. He's destroying our marriage.
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I'm going to tell the guy to get lost.
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But I didn't see it at the time. I can see it now.
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So how did that all play out? You know, you mentioned that you
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couldn't see it at the time. What did it look like in that
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moment where you were, I guess you could say, blinded to the
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fact that he was essentially running your day-to-day life,
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even maybe from afar? Well, it changed, right?
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How I would have seen that early on.
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I kind of would just roll my eyes and think, Oh my God, this
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guy's nuts. And then much later on, it
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became kind of like watching a horror movie.
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It was, it was awful. And I couldn't believe this was
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my life. And so again, as I mentioned
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earlier, the cognitive dissonance of loving my wife and
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really respecting her and her opinion, and here it is.
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She thought the guy was brilliant.
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And I would be like, I think the guy's nuts.
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So it was a slow, subtle progression for me to kind of
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reconcile those thoughts to where, OK, I need to cut him
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some slack. I was wrong.
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He was right. I am so sorry, Uncle Robert,
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that I would have been so immature and childish and, and
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did not recognize how brilliant you were.
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And. And I really got to the point
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where, Yeah, I thought he was the answer to saving my
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marriage, which I, you know, I say that now and it just sounds
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so crazy. And I guess that's the point.
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It was. One of the things that you
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mentioned earlier is, you know, as you were coming out of it,
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your parents and your friends and stuff really didn't have any
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idea what was going on, which means that you, you were
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probably experiencing some isolation.
21:43
So with that isolation, how did that, how did the role of
21:49
isolation play both relationally and spiritually in your life as
21:54
things progressed? Well, cult leaders do that on
21:59
purpose. Cult leaders control their
22:01
members through isolation, paranoia, and secrecy.
22:04
So the paranoia and secrecy, you know, we were told we couldn't
22:07
say words on the cell phone. We had to shred our trash.
22:10
We couldn't call like Robert and ask where he was because of
22:13
course the powers that be were going to threaten his life.
22:16
We had to protect him. So we, in essence, circle the
22:19
wagons around him. It did not share his ideology
22:23
and theology with others. And I'm sure in the back of my
22:25
mind for many years, I knew we didn't do it because, well, for
22:29
me, it's because he was nuts. He was crazy.
22:31
But then we were always taught that no, we were doing this
22:34
because we don't share our pearls before the swine.
22:36
You know, I've heard of that over and over and over again,
22:38
which is a biblical verse, right?
22:42
And then the isolation really came about by we patron.
22:46
I would go to church and then we would listen to the pastor.
22:51
Paige would then get on the cell phone and call Uncle Robert and
22:53
tell him, fill him in what the pastor said, which of course was
22:56
always wrong. He never, the pastors never knew
22:59
the true gospel, only Uncle Robert did.
23:01
So then we would leave that church and we did that time
23:03
after time after time. So we eventually just started
23:06
having our own home church. We never invited other people to
23:08
join us. It was just us.
23:10
And then we would talk to Uncle Robert on the cell phone for
23:12
hours. So what I liken it to is like,
23:14
you know, the body of Christ, like if I cut off my thumb,
23:17
Wesley, I'm not going to die. My thumb will die, but I will
23:21
die. The body of Christ will die.
23:22
Well, we were like that little thumb, specifically me.
23:25
We had become very disconnected from the larger body of Christ.
23:29
And we only listen to Uncle Robert, you know, a false
23:32
teacher, a cold beer. And there was no other people
23:36
around to say, hey, wait. And Peter, Uncle Robert have
23:38
explained to you the idea of casinos or churches on and on,
23:41
right? There was no one else there to
23:42
kind of question and keep us accountable.
23:44
And so it's when when that happens, not only are you
23:48
isolated, but you come very vulnerable.
23:53
I could see that, you know, you, you not only lost your marriage
23:57
and all this, but you really lost your sense of spiritual
24:00
safety. And so how did that affect your
24:04
relationship with God? You know, I can remember in the
24:09
my darkest moments would have been 2017.
24:13
I, I couldn't talk to anybody. You know, Page and Uncle Robert
24:15
told me after she left. Don't tell anybody you know.
24:19
We'll let you know when it's time to tell people.
24:21
Pate says. You know, we'll talk to the
24:22
children, tell them together, which didn't happen.
24:24
She told the kids on her own. So again, for like a month or
24:27
two, the kids didn't know what's going on.
24:29
My community, friends of the community, didn't know for about
24:32
9 months. My family didn't know about four
24:34
months. And I could hardly sleep at
24:36
night. So I'd be up in the middle of
24:37
the night and I'd get out my Bible and I would read Psalms
24:40
and I would cry out to the Lord. And on the one hand, Wesley, I
24:43
knew the Lord heard me. I knew he heard me.
24:46
You know David is crying out and he is in distress.
24:49
So was I, and I knew the Lord heard me, even though here's
24:53
this little narcissistic guy, Uncle Robert, drumming into my
24:56
head that I was incapable of receiving salvation, that I had
24:59
a legion of demons in me, just like the man in Lootgate.
25:03
And he's drumming this into my head over and over and over
25:06
again. And so, yeah, I felt very
25:08
insecure, very vulnerable, very alone on an island.
25:12
And it was terrifying. But still, in the back of my
25:15
mind, you know, I knew. Wait a minute.
25:18
The Lord hears me. And so eventually I just stopped
25:22
trying to, you know, quote, UN quote, be saved the right way by
25:24
Uncle Robert and realized that if I had anything to do with
25:29
this process, if I had to do anything or accomplish anything,
25:33
then that brings into play works.
25:36
Salvation is a gift, pure and simple.
25:38
And so every testimony is a miracle.
25:41
It's a miracle that you and I are saved because it's a gift.
25:44
And so however messy my testimony is going back to when
25:48
I was a teenager and now it as an adult in this tiny little
25:51
cult, you know what? That just shows, that just shows
25:56
that God can redeem any messed up life of ours and he can save
26:01
us. And so who wants a clean
26:03
testimony, right? That's the Pharisees.
26:05
You know, Uncle Robert taught us that he only sinned once in his
26:08
life. Well, it's pretty hard to be
26:09
humble and realize you need a savior when you think you've
26:12
only sinned once in your life. I can go back over and over
26:15
again, not proudly, but I can show you example after example
26:19
where yeah, This is why I need a savior.
26:24
Yeah, and I love that. And you said it perfectly there.
26:27
God can redeem anybody. I love that.
26:30
Well, hey, just a quick pause here.
26:32
Listeners, if you're listening to this and something in this
26:35
first part of the episode has been speaking to you, share this
26:38
episode with somebody else who needs to hear it.
26:41
Seriously, It's how we get these conversations started and we get
26:45
them in front of the people that need to hear them.
26:47
So I've got to put somebody on your heart as you've been
26:49
listening to this episode. Take a moment and just share it
26:52
with them. All right, so let's let's get
26:55
back into this story, Peter, because I have a feeling we're
26:59
not even close to dunks. It's just there's so much to
27:02
unpack here. And so as you look back in
27:08
everything, what did Rescue look like?
27:12
Not just leaving the cult, but having your eyes and your heart
27:16
reopened. Well, I would say most
27:21
importantly, my faith is a million times stronger than it
27:25
ever was. I am as a Christian and as a son
27:28
of God and a million times stronger than I ever was.
27:32
And I don't say that arrogantly or to brag, but you know in
27:35
James chapter one, it says if you lack wisdom, ask and the
27:38
Lord will give it to you. Just don't doubt.
27:40
And that I have done. And I asked for wisdom and
27:42
discernment and patience and energy as a single dad to just
27:45
get through the day. And so I don't walk around on
27:48
egg shells tiptoeing around a wife that I'm afraid of,
27:52
intimidated by, and I don't doubt my every thought and word
27:56
because I'm afraid of a family guru that is going to harangue
28:00
me and tell me that I'm invaded or, you know, occupied by
28:04
allegiance of the demons. I look to the Lord for guidance.
28:07
I look to the Lord for wisdom. Do I have other men in my life
28:10
that I can share these things with and ask questions?
28:13
Sure I do, and I have several of them and I make sure I always
28:15
have several of them and not just one.
28:17
And, and I don't agree with all of them and that's OK.
28:20
So that is the biggest change and that I'm, I'm never ashamed
28:24
anymore. I never look at my life and my
28:26
testimony. I think I'm not worthy.
28:29
Well, yeah, I'm not worthy. And that's why I have a savior.
28:33
If I was truly worthy in my own eyes that I wouldn't need a
28:36
savior. So it's really helped me see
28:38
just how simple and profound our Christian faith is that we have
28:44
a savior that loves us this much.
28:47
Now that doesn't mean that you should not evidence fruit in
28:50
your life. I do believe that I do evidence
28:52
that fruit. You know, Lovejoy, peace,
28:54
patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and
28:56
self-control. I try and exhibit those every
28:58
day through an imperfect walk and an imperfect life.
29:01
I can look back and see that fruit in my life growing in many
29:05
ways much stronger than it ever did before.
29:08
Walk us through the process of you're you're divorced, you're
29:14
now essentially out of this cult.
29:17
And now over the next year, two years, your faith is kind of
29:22
taking this 180 turn and now you're coming back to God and
29:26
you're coming back-to-back to your own personal faith instead
29:30
of that that which the cult was teaching you walk us through
29:33
that process and how that all kind of played out in your life.
29:37
And was there, was there a specific moment that kind of
29:41
started you down that path? Well, there were several, you
29:47
know, I used to pray for my wife Paige, my ex-wife Paige, that
29:51
she would have a road to Damascus type moment.
29:53
So even before the divorce happened, so when she left me to
29:56
the divorce took three years, there was a lot of fighting
29:59
through the courts regarding the children.
30:01
Unfortunately there still is. But I would pray that she would
30:03
have a road to Damascus type moment like Sauled Paul and that
30:07
she would see Laura open her eyes and ears to the truth of
30:10
this little cult and what Uncle Robert has done to her and that
30:13
she would repent and be freed of it.
30:15
And unfortunately, it hasn't happened.
30:17
I still hope it does. So for me, there was never that
30:20
one moment. I guess that's why I'm sharing
30:22
that with you is I never had just one moment.
30:24
I had several aha moments. The time in 2017 where Page and
30:29
Uncle Robert are calling me a sperm donor in a bloodline,
30:32
telling me to stop imprisoning my children in the biological
30:36
prison of determination just because I'm the DNA provider,
30:39
etcetera, etcetera. And then during COVID, tell you
30:41
what I did, Wesley, I wrote my memoir and it started off as
30:45
like a page or two to my attorneys, just so they knew
30:49
when we got married, when the kids were bored, just kind of
30:51
recap. And that became a page or two,
30:53
which became 20. Then we became a book.
30:55
And it was very therapeutic, very cathartic as I was able to
30:59
put all the puzzle pieces together.
31:01
You know, my marriage is about to come to an end.
31:03
My family was completely split and broken up.
31:06
And that's very traumatic. It can be very confusing as well
31:09
when you sit back and ask yourself, how did this happen?
31:12
So as I wrote the memoir, I couldn't, it could barely move
31:15
my fingers fast enough on the keyboard.
31:17
It was unbelievably eye opening and helpful for me to like, you
31:22
know, finding the missing puzzle pieces, putting it all together.
31:25
And I can look back and see now with confidence that OK, I now
31:29
know what happened and how it happened and I'm so thankful
31:33
that the Lord rescued me from it and now I can move on.
31:37
Are there still difficulties? Are there still real heartache
31:40
and challenge? I have, yeah.
31:42
You know, I'm a divorced guy. I'm a single dad.
31:44
I've got several of my children that I barely talk to that are
31:47
still very angry with me. And that's horrible.
31:49
And it's hard. But pair thing, I think, is a
31:52
marathon, not a Sprint. And so is our Christian walk.
31:55
You know, we never stop growing. We never stop learning.
31:58
And so I've learned a lot through this process.
32:01
I often say I wish I could have learned all these lessons a
32:04
little easier, but the Lord really does a good job of using
32:08
our pain to teach us. He really does.
32:12
I mean, talk a little bit more. I'm really curious, like over
32:15
this year or so, as you left the cult, what did the
32:18
transformation look like for you to go from the teachings of the
32:22
cult to the teachings of Christ and everything that you're now
32:26
hearing in the regular church, which you were taught was wrong?
32:34
You know, it took a while for me to be able to go back to a
32:36
church. It felt awkward having, you
32:40
know, had this guy's voice in my head for so long.
32:43
And I remember Paige's younger sister, she was shunned and
32:46
ostracized by Paige and her parents and, and Uncle Robert,
32:51
you know, 25 years ago because she had called him out, rightly
32:53
so. And so then, you know, we
32:56
reconnected after, you know, not having talked to her in about 20
32:59
years. She said, you know, it'll take a
33:01
while for you to stop hearing Uncle Robert's voice in your
33:04
head. You know, like when you go and
33:06
listen to a pastor, or you might listen to a pastor on the radio
33:10
and you hear a pastor talking, preaching, sharing the word.
33:13
And it'll take a while to not hear Uncle Robert's distinct
33:16
voice trying to give his perspective on it.
33:18
And she was right. Now, it didn't take years, but
33:21
it did take a while to stop hearing his voice.
33:24
And thus it took a while for me to really trust other leaders,
33:29
other men. And I trust them in the way now
33:31
that's far more healthy. I don't implicitly trust anybody
33:34
like I did Robert. I question everything.
33:36
You know, the truth doesn't mind being questioned.
33:39
The truth is what it is and it welcomes questions.
33:43
And you know, cult leaders hate questions.
33:45
So as I came out of it, I asked a lot of questions and I still
33:49
do. And it's very refreshing for
33:51
them. You know, my pastor and other
33:53
men that really know the Bible that I respect.
33:55
When I ask them these questions, Wesley, they don't get angry
33:57
with me how they don't get offended.
33:59
They search for the answer and they don't mind being having
34:03
their feet put to the fire. We should do that.
34:06
We should be like Bereans and question each other.
34:09
And so in many ways, it's been a very healthy journey for me out
34:12
of the cold. Yeah, I love that you're
34:16
bringing up the community aspect of it because one of the things
34:19
that I'd say on this podcast time and time again, and even
34:23
when I do my own podcast interviews, you know, when I'm
34:26
when I'm in your shoes and somebody else is on and somebody
34:29
else's podcast, you know, I talk about the importance of
34:32
community because life was not meant to be done alone.
34:35
We see that demonstrated time and time again throughout
34:38
Scripture. And it's important that you have
34:40
people in your life that will speak truth into you and that
34:43
you can rely on. And I love that you've been able
34:46
to be able to find that now outside of the cult and to be
34:51
able to use that to not only further your faith, but to
34:56
develop a healthy community, healthy relationships that will
35:01
further help you get further along in many areas areas of
35:05
your life. Yeah, you know, and I, I could
35:10
probably go into 10 different churches and probably not agree
35:14
with the doctrine of all of them.
35:15
I don't agree with all the doctrine of my church and that's
35:17
OK. You know, I kind of like it's
35:19
like like a pendulum, right? I mean, you know, way over here
35:22
is heresy and way over here we agree on everything.
35:25
I think as long as we're right over here really close, that's
35:27
fine. Like if we have disagreements
35:29
about non salvation issues, non foundational issues, you know,
35:33
that's iron sharpening iron, right?
35:35
Like we can have questions, we can have disagreements, as long
35:37
as we agree on the fundamentals. Jesus Christ is Lord, we are
35:42
sinners, we need to be saved, etcetera.
35:45
And so I enjoy those difficult conversations.
35:48
I enjoy the back and forth with men again, not only in my
35:50
church, but in other churches. To me that is very healthy.
35:54
So I'm constantly seeking out Now I just go to church, but
35:57
then going to a men's Bible study.
35:58
I meet with a guy on Monday mornings.
36:00
I might even start another, you know, breakfast club at joining
36:03
The Breakfast Club on, on Wednesdays.
36:05
So that way I really do have a number of men helping to keep me
36:09
accountable so I'm not getting vulnerable again.
36:12
Again, think about the lion hunting and there's the one
36:15
gazelle or the 1 antelope, whatever's out there, well that
36:19
one is an easy target and easy prey.
36:22
You put 1000 of them together and a Tiger's going to have a
36:25
harder time. It's very applicable to our
36:28
lives. So someone you know has really
36:30
started isolating themselves from you, from other people,
36:33
from their historic friendship group or the body of Christ.
36:37
They are vulnerable. That's a dangerous position to
36:40
be in. Yep, absolutely.
36:43
You know, Peter, one of the things that you talk about is
36:46
salvation coming before sanctification.
36:49
Why is it that, or why is that distinction so important,
36:54
especially for wounded believers?
36:59
Well, acting as a gatekeeper to God is one of the attributes of
37:02
a cult leader. You know, if you peel the onion
37:04
back far enough, all of these cult leaders really do share a
37:07
lot of traits. Not all of them, but they do
37:09
share a lot. You know, they're narcissistic.
37:11
They make all the rules, but the rules don't apply to them.
37:14
They have a grandiose sense of self admission, and they act as
37:17
a gatekeeper to God. It's exactly what Robert Booty
37:20
did by convincing Paige she wasn't saved.
37:22
And Paige's parents, and then me and really all the adults in our
37:26
little cult, we all would have gone through the same process at
37:28
one time or another of having to quote, UN quote, be saved by
37:31
Uncle Robert, which again, is totally unbiblical and wicked.
37:35
Christ is the gate. He is the only way to eternal
37:38
life. And so you are saved.
37:41
It's a free gift. You know, when you and I were
37:42
born, you and I didn't have any say in it, right?
37:44
We didn't get to pick our parents.
37:46
We were born. And then after we are born, you
37:49
know, we learn to crawl, then walk and then run, and then we
37:51
grow and we mature. Same thing with our Christian
37:53
faith. And so anybody that tries to
37:56
switch the order is trying to get you to take an active role
38:00
in salvation where you have to learn things first, you have to
38:02
do things first. Which again, if if that were the
38:05
case, then it's not a free gift. It's something that you took an
38:09
active part in and you did a lot of work and God kind of filled
38:12
in the rest. It's not the way it works.
38:16
Absolutely not. That is not how it works at all.
38:18
So throughout all of this, how did God mature you through the
38:22
season? Not by avoiding pain, but by
38:25
walking through it. Yeah, Well, I, you know, I
38:31
certainly bounced along the bottom there.
38:33
You know, people talk about hitting rock bottom.
38:34
I I hit rock bottom again and again and again for a couple
38:37
months. And you know, when we are
38:41
humble, when we could admit our mistakes, when we recognize and
38:45
see our sin, It's a friend of mine that's kind of working on
38:48
his doctoral thesis or dissertation, whatever you want
38:51
to call it. And he, and he's really kind of
38:54
honing in on that, that, you know, we need to be angry at our
38:58
sin to really recognize how sinful sin is.
39:01
And if you're not humble, it's pretty hard to do.
39:02
And so the Lord really got my attention and, you know, I, I am
39:08
now able to see that, you know, without him, without relying on
39:12
him completely, 100%, I'm really not capable of anything.
39:16
Couldn't keep my marriage, couldn't keep my family, could
39:18
keep, you know, I could keep it together at a whole.
39:20
And so we have to truly rely on him.
39:22
I hope I've learned that lesson because I certainly don't want
39:24
to go through like something like that again.
39:28
But you know, some people have asked me kind of wondered, well,
39:32
why don't you just move on and, and you know, why do you keep
39:35
talking about this? And again, I go back to that guy
39:37
in Luke 8. Why would you stop talking about
39:42
it? I mean, this man was as good as
39:43
dead as was I. I mean, I was never suicidal,
39:47
but I was man. I was done.
39:50
And then look what the Lord has done.
39:52
Look what the Lord did to the man in Luke 8.
39:53
Look what he did to me. I'll never stop talking about it
39:56
because when I share all this, I am sharing what the Lord has
40:00
done and hopefully pointing people to Him.
40:05
Love that, you know, For listeners who are out there who
40:09
are still in unhealthy spiritual environments, what are some
40:14
warning signs that don't require fear but invite wisdom?
40:20
Well, let me preface my answer by first saying that there is a
40:22
difference between a cult and unhealthy, dysfunctional
40:26
culture, right? So there's a lot of unhealthy,
40:30
dysfunctional, even abusive culture in businesses, even in
40:33
churches. There are political
40:35
organizations, probably even in families.
40:37
Doesn't mean it's a cult. It's bad but doesn't mean it's a
40:40
cult. I'll also preface it by saying
40:43
remember with the undue manipulative mind control.
40:45
If a person truly is brainwashed and in a cult they don't know
40:49
it. So the red flags are for the
40:52
person who sees their friend or loved one that is in the cult
40:57
that has been brainwashed. Because again the person
40:59
brainwashed will never see it and won't think they need help.
41:02
The red flags are for those friends and they should really
41:05
spur you to action to have the difficult and uncomfortable
41:09
conversations. So if a friend of yours has
41:11
broken off historic communication, they don't call,
41:14
they don't e-mail, they don't come to Bible study anymore,
41:17
they maybe don't come to book club or Friday night bowling.
41:19
And now they have someone new in their life that it's all or
41:24
nothing praise and you're not allowed to ask any questions
41:26
about this person. Those are big red flags.
41:29
Not saying that person's in a cult or this other person they
41:32
talk about is a cult leader, but those are huge red flags so that
41:35
you need to be aware of. And so ask people questions, you
41:39
reach out. If they don't call you anymore,
41:41
you call them. It might be uncomfortable, it
41:43
might be awkward, but is it worth it?
41:46
Isn't it worth being a little awkward, uncomfortable to help a
41:49
friend out of that situation? Because I can guarantee you, you
41:53
do not want to experience the journey in and out of a cult.
41:57
It is not fun. If someone is out there and
42:03
they're listening and they feel ashamed for falling for
42:06
something, what would you want them to know about grace and
42:10
God's patience? Well, that's an easy answer.
42:16
You know, God is very patient and God is very gracious.
42:19
And for those of us who are repentant and we have been
42:22
called according to his grace, according to his purpose, Yeah,
42:25
He's absolutely gracious. He's like the father of the
42:28
prodigal son. He welcomes us back to me.
42:31
That's not so much the issue. That's, you know, that's reading
42:34
my Bible and knowing that the Lord loves me and is patient and
42:37
gracious. It's more along the lines of
42:39
your family and friends and other people that you know.
42:41
Do you feel shame around them? Because as you know, we are not
42:45
as patient and as gracious as the Lord.
42:50
And so friends and family. Well, for me, I, I never felt
42:54
shame around them. No one ever really made me feel
42:56
bad. That might be different for
42:58
other people. I could just tell you again, for
43:00
me, I have never felt shame about sharing my story about
43:03
what happened to me. And people might say to me,
43:06
well, I'll never fall for that. I would never fall for a cold.
43:08
OK, fine, good for you. There's a million different ways
43:12
it can happen. My vulnerability, what made me
43:15
susceptible and vulnerable was I love my wife.
43:18
I didn't want to lose my marriage that made me
43:20
vulnerable. There's a million different ways
43:22
that you could fall into the clutches of a cult and a cult
43:26
leader. And so it's not the same trying
43:28
to put fear in anybody's mind. It's just obviously be on
43:31
lookout, staying in fellowship and communication with
43:34
believers. But to answer your question
43:36
directly, for those people that have gotten out, I would
43:39
encourage them not to feel shame at all.
43:40
I feel zero shame. I can, I can look myself in the
43:43
mirror and then I can speak to people in person or people who
43:46
are listening and just humbly say, yeah, well, I made a mess
43:50
of my life. Thank God I'm saved.
43:52
Thank God my God is greater than my mistakes.
43:56
You know it. It's easy to say don't be
43:59
ashamed. But it's another thing to be
44:03
able to walk that talk, if you will, You know, you can talk the
44:06
talk, but can you walk the walk? You know?
44:09
So if they're listening to and man, that's easier said than
44:12
done, right? What's, what's the step that
44:15
they can take or what's a process, the process that they
44:18
can take to get to the point where they're they can say like
44:23
you say, yeah, I fell for it, but I'm not ashamed.
44:31
I'll answer this way, and I don't mean to sound flippant or
44:33
trite, but you know, people will often say, you know, I, I just
44:37
wish I could hear the Lord speak to me.
44:39
And then the answer to that would be, we'll read your Bible.
44:42
And then first of all, no, I, I really wish I could hear the
44:44
voice of the Lord out loud. And again, the answer would be
44:47
read your Bible out loud, read your Bible, get in the word,
44:52
talk about it with others, study it every single day.
44:57
The answers are all there. It's not so much what I can
45:01
share with you or your pastor can share with you or someone
45:03
else can. Connections like that are
45:06
important. You've got to get in the Word
45:08
each and every day and read it and know it and meditate on it
45:13
because it is life giving. Absolutely.
45:19
Well, Peter, I have one more question for you, but before I
45:21
ask it, I want to give you a chance here.
45:24
If the listeners are out there and they they've enjoyed this
45:27
and they want to find you or your book, where can they find
45:30
you online and where can they find your book?
45:34
Yeah, thank you. So you know my the memoir is
45:37
Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger.
45:39
You can find it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, Kobo, probably
45:43
even other places that I don't even know about.
45:45
Amazon does a great job for self published authors.
45:48
You can also find more about me at my website, which is author
45:53
Peter young.com. I love reading so I do a lot of
45:56
book reviews. I also speak publicly.
45:58
I'm a lot on on a lot of podcasts and so you can find a
46:02
lot of information there. I've also written other books.
46:05
I write Christian fiction about Christianity, basketball, and
46:08
then you can also sign up from a monthly newsletter.
46:11
I love sharing stories. I love using stories to spread
46:13
the word of God. And so I do that every month as
46:15
well. And it's free.
46:16
You can sign up for that at author Peter young.com.
46:21
Awesome. Well, if you're if you're
46:23
interested in finding him or his book, check the show notes
46:26
wherever you're listening to this.
46:28
And I will put a link to his website as well as his book on
46:31
Amazon down there for you to find for easy access.
46:35
Well, Peter, last question for you, and that is, if somebody is
46:40
out there and they're listening and they're feeling spiritually
46:43
confused, disillusioned, or unsure how or who to trust
46:49
anymore, what would you want them to know about God's
46:52
faithfulness in the aftermath? I would take them directly to
46:59
James chapter 1. You know, I used to have the
47:01
whole chapter memorized, but the simplicity of it just really
47:05
speaks to me when he says, if any of you lack wisdom, he
47:09
should ask and the Lord will give generously.
47:12
But when he asks, he must not doubt because he who doubts is
47:15
like a wave of the sea blown and tossed by the wind.
47:19
And it really is that simple. Just ask.
47:21
And I have done that and my life is living proof.
47:23
And so sometimes people will say to me, well, wow, it's great
47:26
that you may able to recover this or that.
47:28
And and you know, often times we want to deflect and shrug and
47:31
say, Oh Gee whiz, golly. And it's like, well, no, I'm not
47:34
surprised. I asked for wisdom.
47:36
He promised me he'd give it to me and he has.
47:40
It's really that simple. I would just encourage you go
47:42
read James chapter 1. Read it over and over again and
47:44
just ask the Lord and He will give you wisdom.
47:47
He keeps his promises. He always does, but I, I love
47:54
the, the saying that I hear often and that is be careful
47:58
what you ask for because he's going to, he's going to give you
48:02
what you asked for, but it may not always be in the way that
48:05
you want him to give it to you. So be careful what you ask for,
48:08
but and be willing to receive. Right wisdom can be learned in a
48:15
multitude of ways. Peter, thanks again for joining
48:21
us today on Unmask and trusting us with your story.
48:26
Thank you very much, Wesley. Appreciate it.
48:35
Well, thanks for joining me today on Unmasked.
48:37
And again, a huge thanks to Peter Young for being our guest
48:41
and sharing so openly and honestly about his journey.
48:46
If something in this episode spoke to you, don't let it stop
48:49
with you. Share it with the one person
48:51
that God put on your heart while you were listening.
48:54
You never know whose breakthrough might start with
48:56
just a simple message from you. If you want more encouragement,
49:01
want to speak with me one-on-one, or you're interested
49:04
in having me speak at your church or events, you can find
49:07
everything@wesleyfernsworth.com and make sure you join the
49:11
Unmasked community by joining me on social media so that we can
49:14
walk this journey together. Until next time, remember that
49:19
grace is greater than your past and real freedom begins the
49:23
moment that we choose to live unmasked.
49:25
God bless you.