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Was Dutch Right? | Red Dead Redemption | Summary · Replay Reviews

0:01
Thank you for coming back from our replay reviews.
0:03
My name is Leah. And my name is Kathy. We are
0:06
two friends who are here to replay, review, and
0:08
analyze your favorite video games. And since
0:11
Kathy has never seen the games before, it helps
0:13
me view them through her fresh eyes, almost like
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I'm discovering them again for the first time.
0:17
We hope it will be a similar experience for you.
0:26
Anything you want to say before we get started?
0:29
I mean... I have a lot of thoughts. I don't know
0:31
if I want to get into it quite. But yeah, if
0:34
I start, I won't know how to stop. Let's start
0:37
with some burning questions then because I think
0:39
they'll be pretty short. My only burning question
0:42
was from episode three when the train, as John,
0:47
we had to go stop the train before it crossed
0:49
the bridge. And then the bridge blew up. And
0:51
we're like, who blew up the bridge? So I went
0:54
back and rewatched that. What we know is there
0:57
are no supplies on the train. And we know that
1:01
DeSanta asked John to stop the train after the
1:03
rebels steal it before it crosses the bridge.
1:07
If the rebels stole it, they either think there's
1:10
supplies on it so they wouldn't want to blow
1:13
it up, right? Or they're mad at the army because
1:18
there's no supplies and they're just blowing
1:20
it up out of spite. Which is kind of the only
1:23
answer I have because I don't think that the
1:25
army would explode it. Because why would they?
1:29
DeSanto wouldn't need to ask him to stop it before
1:31
it crosses the bridge because he would know it's
1:32
never going to cross the bridge. So I don't know.
1:35
I think it must have been the rebels, but I just,
1:38
I don't know. They don't care if they lose weapons
1:40
or equipment over it. It's a, if I die, I'm taking
1:44
you with me kind of situation. So might as well,
1:47
we both don't have that. Still no, no solid answer,
1:51
but that's my solution. My burning question ties
1:56
into this entire conversation about at what point
2:00
do you think he gets redeemed? What is redemption?
2:03
Where does it start? Where does it stop? And
2:05
that kind of ties along with the question of
2:07
why Red Dead Redemption? Why is this name called
2:11
Redemption? Redemption I get, but Red Dead? What
2:14
does that mean? I think you're going to be a
2:16
little disappointed. Just because there was an
2:20
older game called Red Dead Revolver. I have not
2:24
played it. It's not, I don't think, really directly
2:26
tied to the rest of the games, but that's where
2:29
they pulled Red Dead from. Oh, okay. Well, should
2:34
we just put the burning questions to bed then?
2:36
Yeah. Until we get to your bigger one? Mm -hmm.
2:40
Okay. Ending reactions, which just at this point,
2:43
immediate reactions. So for this one, since I've
2:46
obviously seen it a few times, I'm more going
2:48
to build off of what your immediate reactions
2:49
were. I felt so caught off guard because I thought
2:54
John was going to be the main character in game
2:56
two. I knew there was a game two. I thought he
2:59
was going to continue. So when he dies, I was
3:01
like, but what about game two? My next reaction
3:04
was, I can't believe after all that running around,
3:08
just trying to seek redemption. That's how it
3:10
ends. Maybe the redemption part is more of an
3:13
internal thing that John and Abigail, from their
3:16
point of view, he was redeemed. That's good.
3:20
But I have mixed feelings because the takeaway
3:22
message I'm sensing is that you can only get
3:25
redemption if you die. And there's a lot of issues
3:30
with that. I get Jon needing to die is great
3:35
for the plot. It's great for the reactions and
3:37
the motions in this game. But I don't know what
3:40
kind of message that sends. I think I mentioned
3:43
it at the end of part five, but it is a notorious
3:46
ending. I think it's one of the only ones that
3:49
so ruthlessly kills off its main character. So
3:53
I understand where you're coming from. And this
3:55
is why I wanted to do immediate reactions and
3:57
then afterthoughts after we cover our other topics.
4:01
Because this game is a lot deeper than it seems
4:06
immediately. So, I mean, should we just build
4:11
that into our second topic, which is Jon's death?
4:13
Yeah. And you had a question and I had a question.
4:17
Do you want to do your question first? Yes. So
4:20
topic two is John's death. And my question is,
4:23
was it necessary? And how would the plot have
4:25
changed if he lived? I honestly think it depends
4:29
on what the message this game is trying to send.
4:31
So I think if the game was about you can never
4:36
redeem yourself from a path of crime, or if the
4:38
theme was you can only redeem yourself through
4:40
death, then of course he needed to die. That
4:43
way John has that full circle of he did wrong.
4:46
He redeemed himself and he needed to die for
4:49
it. But if there is a chance for redemption without
4:52
needing death, then no, they shouldn't have killed
4:55
John. What the plot would have been afterward
4:57
would be like, okay, he lives a full life. It
5:01
would have been a really nice, sweet ending just
5:03
to end the game. I get it. I think it's less
5:07
that you have to die and more that you're willing
5:10
to die. It sort of just signifies. you kind of
5:15
have to admit what you did and accept punishment
5:18
for it. Do I 100 % agree with the way that it
5:21
happened? No. But it leads me into my John's
5:25
death question, which is, does he know the only
5:28
freedom for his family is his death? And that's
5:31
why my answer to your question, was his death
5:34
necessary, is yes. I don't know if I said that
5:38
structurally sound, but... It makes sense what
5:41
you're saying. I have some opinions about it,
5:43
but let's hear your. Yeah, I do believe that
5:47
John comes to this realization that his death
5:51
is sort of the only way for his family to be
5:53
free. I do think that he had thoughts in the
5:56
back of his head that he's just sort of choosing
5:59
to ignore. And so when the army arrives, he finally
6:02
has to address these thoughts. And he comes to
6:05
the full realization that they won't quit until
6:07
they have John. So, yes, I firmly say that John's
6:13
death is necessary because it proves that he
6:16
has completed his redemption arc. He saved his
6:19
family the only way he can, by sacrificing himself
6:22
to the government to ensure they never come back,
6:25
shooting at his family, never kidnap them again.
6:28
And devil's advocate time, because I know you
6:31
might ask this, but yeah, he could have left
6:33
out the back of the barn, right? And ran away
6:36
with them, or even ran away on their own to,
6:38
you know. stay separate, try to keep him safe
6:41
that way. But I don't think that they ever would
6:43
have been safe with him alive at all. From what
6:46
we've seen and heard in this game, Ross would
6:49
use them to get to John. And by instead staying
6:53
and facing his death, he ensures freedom for
6:56
his family. His redemption is in his death. So
7:00
is Abigail's, thanks to his sacrifice. And the
7:03
line that ties this all together for me is when
7:05
he says, people don't forget, nothing gets forgiven.
7:09
So I think he knew the whole time, but he was
7:11
just keeping it together for the sake of his
7:14
family. I like that line. But then a quick question
7:18
to answer is that from the moment John gets back
7:21
to his range, do you think he was always waiting
7:23
for the other shoe to drop that he was going
7:25
to die? Yeah, I think he is. But it's like he's
7:29
pushing it to the back of his mind. Okay. So
7:31
he's choosing to ignore it. When I was first
7:34
working on this question and thinking through
7:36
it. My thought was that up until the point where
7:39
Uncle dies, I think John knew that he may have
7:44
like fully redeemed himself and he's safe because
7:47
he continues to live there with Jack and Abigail
7:51
and Uncle. And my opinion is that if I was always
7:56
waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'd rather
7:58
make it difficult for them to track me down and
8:00
always be slightly in the running. I would have
8:03
just picked up my family and moved. I wouldn't
8:05
stay at that ranch. They knew where he lived.
8:07
The other thing is, Abigail and Jack aren't guaranteed
8:10
to stay alive. They could have killed John and
8:13
then immediately went to kill Abigail and Jack.
8:15
And John wouldn't have been able to do anything
8:18
about it. So, by staying there, I thought John
8:21
thought he was safe. I think it's at the moment
8:25
when Uncle dies that he realizes, okay, I can't
8:28
run from fate anymore. They're going to kill
8:30
me. The one thing that we know he wants, right,
8:33
is a normal life for Jack especially, but for
8:37
his family. And so moving them around sort of
8:41
defeats that. You're sort of admitting defeat
8:44
to that dream. And he also knows that they chased
8:47
people all the way into Mexico. So I think he
8:50
knows running away is not... going to be a permanent
8:53
solution so he'd rather just have as much time
8:57
as he can giving his family a normal life i could
9:01
see that but a part of me wishes that he took
9:04
matters in his own hand instead of waiting for
9:06
the other shoe to drop that's why his character
9:09
is so tragic because he's trying to change but
9:13
maybe if he didn't change he would have more
9:15
of a fighting chance but then then you're not
9:18
changing so it's kind of you know catch 22 and
9:20
that's why it's so tragic It's really similar
9:23
to the freedom part, but I guess what point do
9:26
you think that John Foley redeems himself? Is
9:29
it as soon as the moment that he kills Dutch
9:33
and he's kind of like released by Ross? Or do
9:36
you think it's the moment when he earns his freedom
9:39
that his redemption arc is finally completed?
9:43
I think it's when he accepts his fate. When he
9:46
doesn't run away at the barn and decides to face
9:48
them instead. It angers a lot of people. It angered
9:52
me the first time because I'm like, just run
9:55
away, John, please. And I still hate it, but
9:58
I love it at the same time because if he ran
10:01
away or if he did anything to try to stop them,
10:05
that's him sliding back into the outlaw life.
10:09
And so him rejecting that even at the cost of
10:12
his own life is his redemption. For me, it's
10:17
the moment when he gets back home. In a way,
10:19
because that's when he starts his false sense
10:21
of hope that he's going to make it. There's nothing
10:24
more I can do. There's nothing more I can fully
10:26
redeem himself because I still don't feel like
10:28
redemption and freedom is. And the fact that
10:33
he dies, it's still a bit murky for me. And I
10:38
don't even think freedom comes into the equation,
10:40
at least for him. It's freedom for his family,
10:43
I guess. Why does he think that they're going
10:46
to uphold their promise of not harming or their
10:48
morals of not harming his wife and child? I would
10:51
be worried that both Abigail and Jack are going
10:54
to die too with me. Ross is after medals and
10:57
accolades and John's going to get him that. Is
10:59
killing a wife and child going to get them that?
11:02
Probably not. I don't necessarily think that
11:05
Ross kills for the enjoyment of killing. I think
11:08
he kills when there's an excuse to kill. And
11:12
I don't think that he's being given an excuse
11:14
to kill Abigail and Jack, but I don't think he'd
11:17
care if they got caught in the crossfire either.
11:20
Yeah. I guess that's all I had for topic two.
11:24
Big topic here for number three. Strange man
11:28
theories. There's a lot going on. I have a lot
11:31
of questions. How does he know so much about
11:33
John? Why doesn't he reveal who he is? How does
11:36
he not die? How is he commuting from place to
11:39
place? Why is he dressed like that? There's a
11:41
lot of questions. But overall, I have two theories.
11:45
First, and this is one where I'm more leaning
11:48
towards this idea of the strange man being a
11:51
Grim Reaper. First interaction, he says he wished
11:54
he knew more about life. And maybe he only wished
11:57
he knew more about life as he only knows about.
12:00
the afterlife and and death and the last interaction
12:04
that we have with the strange man he also mentions
12:06
he's like an accountant in a way and i thought
12:09
of this as like the grim reaper having a lot
12:11
of cases like accounts the way i see it is that
12:16
when he gives john a choice this is going to
12:18
impact what happens to john in the afterlife
12:22
and it makes sense why when john shoots at him
12:25
he doesn't die So that's my first theory. So
12:29
I don't know if you want to react to it before
12:30
I go into my second theory. No, we'll have some
12:35
crossover. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And then my second
12:38
theory is that it is part of John's subconscious
12:41
and it's his imagination. So the strange man
12:45
knows so much about John and it's because he
12:48
is John. He's a part of John's imagination. And
12:51
this stems from so much PTSD. Like the first
12:54
interaction where he talks about, do you remember
12:56
this person? And John's like, no. And the fact
12:59
that the girl's eyeball pops out, that's pretty
13:01
gruesome. And so it's John's PTSD that's probably
13:05
pushing that memory into something he can't remember.
13:08
But the strange man knows because he is John.
13:12
And then the next part, too, is that in the second
13:15
interaction, the strange man says he has a boy.
13:17
And maybe that's Jack, that John has a boy, too.
13:21
And that's because they're the same person. And
13:24
he also doesn't die because he is John's imagination.
13:28
It's his subconscious speaking. So he can't die.
13:32
The first encounter, as John's walking up, we
13:35
hear him saying in the distance, Oh, I've been
13:37
waiting for you. So this indicates he is specifically
13:40
seeking out John. This is not a chance encounter.
13:44
And he also knows his name before he even sees
13:46
John. So he knows who he is. Just based on sensing
13:51
it, I don't know. And then you talked about the
13:53
Heidi McCourt exchange. And I said, when he says,
13:57
do you remember Heidi McCourt's face? He's challenging
14:01
John to remember his darker past because John
14:03
just said, I'm pretty good at remembering faces.
14:06
So he's like, are you? Well, do you remember
14:08
this one? This is the first time that I've considered,
14:12
what if he's not being honest when he says not
14:16
really? Does he really not remember who she is?
14:19
Or is he frightened of what this man would or
14:22
could do if he admits the truth that he does
14:25
remember? Because that would implicate him, right?
14:28
And we don't know who this guy is. He could be
14:30
some federal agent trying to get to John because
14:34
he obviously knows a lot about John and the gang.
14:36
Yeah, maybe that's actually pretty good. Maybe
14:39
John is lying. And the biggest part is I don't
14:43
think that he'd forget that, you know? I wouldn't.
14:46
Based on what we know about him, right? But it
14:47
could be his PTSD just pushing into the back
14:51
of his mind. John says, what do you think I am?
14:54
He says, I know what you are, John. So he knows
14:56
what he is, but I think he's giving him tests
14:58
to determine who he is. If we jump ahead to the
15:02
second encounter, just for a second, when John
15:05
walks away from that encounter, he says, hurry
15:08
up, John, or are you not the man I thought you
15:10
were? So it seems like he is still trying to
15:14
determine maybe John's morality. I think he's
15:17
likely doing this, giving John these tests, because
15:19
he knows that John had bad guidance growing up.
15:22
And that ties into him saying, I wish I'd known
15:25
more about life. He knows John did bad things,
15:28
but now he's trying to make up for them. So he
15:30
has enough good in him to warrant these tests
15:34
slash second chances to determine, is he good
15:37
or is he bad? It leaves me feeling like the strange
15:41
man could be an angel sent to test John or the
15:44
Grim Reaper, like you said. Basically, he would
15:47
be trying to determine slash account for which
15:49
side John should fall on due to him having two
15:52
distinctly different lives. Okay, so we're on
15:55
to the second meeting and we're in Nuevo Pariso.
15:59
And in the first encounter, he was standing at
16:01
the river looking to Mexico. He's planning out
16:05
in this moment, where am I going to run into
16:07
John next? So I think that this person can see
16:10
the future. Okay, and then the line where he
16:14
says, I admire you, John. I hope my boy turns
16:16
out just like you. This is the one that gives
16:19
me the biggest pause on any of my theories. This
16:22
line makes me wonder if he's a man from John's
16:25
past, maybe like the spirit of a man from John's
16:28
past. But I think, again, that John would recognize
16:31
him. Another thing that makes me question...
16:35
is it just like someone from his past even if
16:38
they're dead and it's just a spirit is when jack
16:41
finds edgar ross at the end of the game and ross
16:44
says to jack do i know you that to me like it
16:48
could be a hint that like this guy could be someone
16:51
from john's past that was impactful it's a stretch
16:55
i think but i also feel like the do i know you
16:58
from ross is sort of purposeful in a way but
17:01
maybe the tie -in is that Ross saying, do I know
17:04
you? Because we know the strange man gives John
17:07
tasks, right? You can do the good thing or the
17:09
bad thing. So maybe this is just a reference
17:12
to that because Jack now has to decide, am I
17:15
going to kill this man or let him live? So maybe
17:18
that's what it is. I kind of think that's what
17:20
it is. That phrase is a pretty common phrase.
17:24
At the same time, for the writers to have so
17:27
many lines to choose from, but they specifically
17:29
chose that line. It's too much of a coincidence.
17:33
And let me add that the stranger mission is titled,
17:36
Do I Know You? So it's not just something the
17:38
strange man says. It's the whole title of the
17:41
encounters with him. And I don't necessarily
17:43
think that Edgar is taking up the reins of the
17:46
strange man or anything. I think it's more of
17:48
just an Easter egg or a reference to the strange
17:51
man to highlight that now Jack is having to make
17:54
a moral decision. But it's his knowledge of the
17:59
proper authorities that he references when John
18:02
says, I'll let the appropriate authorities judge
18:04
my morality. And the strange man says, yes, you
18:07
will, and they shall. He seems to have knowledge
18:09
of these authorities, and that kind of solidifies
18:12
for me that this is not a currently living human
18:15
or a ghost, but something more spiritual. Again,
18:19
he also seems to be going ahead of John to meet
18:22
him with a new task that he's prepared for him.
18:25
Hearing what you say makes me almost think that
18:28
he is fate. Like the strange man determines what
18:31
John's future is if he says help the nuns. And
18:36
if John doesn't do that, maybe it sets him up
18:38
on a different path. I'll tie more into that.
18:41
So I'm not going to respond yet. So let's just
18:43
go to the third meeting. So this is when John's
18:46
like, what are you doing here? And he says, my
18:49
accounts, I'm an accountant. He's also indicates
18:52
that he's been with John. basically forever,
18:55
because he says, I know you're from Mexico, I
18:58
know you're from back out west, I know you're
19:00
from all over. When John says, tell me your name
19:02
or I won't be responsible for my actions, he
19:05
responds, oh, but you will, you will be responsible.
19:07
This is a fine spot. He is standing at John's
19:11
gravesite when he says this. And then the line
19:15
that I think gets brought up a lot is when John
19:18
says, damn you, and the strange man says, yes,
19:21
many have. It just begs you to think of God damn
19:25
you, right? Which I get, and I don't necessarily
19:28
think it's wrong, but it also feels kind of backwards
19:30
because you wouldn't say God damn you to God
19:33
if God's doing the damning, right? Unless he's
19:36
not God, he's Hades. I guess, I don't know what
19:39
the equivalent of that is. Yeah, he's Hades.
19:44
And that's my next question is, so is he the
19:47
devil? But then I think, no. Because I don't
19:50
think that the devil would be wanting to give
19:52
John opportunities to improve himself. Unless
19:55
he constantly wants John to do bad. Then he's
19:59
saying that mankind is evil. Or it's a neutral
20:05
party. Someone between heaven and hell. The strange
20:10
man has completed his account of John and knows
20:13
his death will be occurring soon. He knows this
20:16
spot will be his resting place. He gave Jon missions
20:19
to balance the scale of time and action because
20:23
Jon's time was cut short. He needed a fair shot
20:27
to prove that he's changed before his death.
20:30
And if this were the Grim Reaper, I don't see
20:33
why he would be involving himself in Jon's morality
20:36
as he's supposed to be, you know, according to
20:39
the lore, more of a harvester of souls. And that's
20:43
sort of where his responsibilities end. So that's
20:45
where the groom reaper kind of falls off for
20:47
me. My two main theories are kind of what you
20:50
were saying of it's something in between, basically.
20:54
It's not something from heaven, not something
20:56
from hell, but something that determines who
20:59
John is. And because he started down a path of
21:02
redemption, but they know it'll be cut short,
21:04
they're giving him these opportunities to sort
21:06
of prove it before time runs out. But there's
21:11
a couple things that... sort of tipped the scale
21:13
for me towards something more from heaven more
21:17
angel related well first of all just symbolism
21:19
there's three meetings it's like the holy trinity
21:22
right but then also sister calderon may have
21:25
given us the answer that's the nun when she says
21:28
the lord has brought you to me so you could help
21:31
me i'm like did she tell us i thought so but
21:35
i also read that as like sisters would say that
21:38
no matter what but he did send him to her And
21:42
we can surmise that he would know she would say
21:44
that because he seems to know the future. Yeah,
21:49
I could see that. Don't know if I completely
21:51
believe that, but I could see it being like the
21:54
writing trying to be clever and saying that.
21:57
Yeah. That's it. Why does John shoot at him?
22:01
Would he really want to kill this guy or does
22:03
he somehow know that he cannot be killed? Because
22:06
it seems out of character for John to want to
22:08
kill him. That's what I was struggling with was
22:11
I think John would only shoot at him if he knows
22:15
he can't die and he's frustrated. I agree. So
22:19
I think maybe deep down John knows who he is.
22:22
Or he knows at least that it's some spiritual
22:25
being and not a flesh and blood person. Are we
22:30
ready for topic four? Mm -hmm. Basically, afterthoughts
22:35
of the game have have our general reactions or
22:37
opinions changed. Are there any themes or characters
22:40
we want to discuss? The first question I have,
22:44
though, more about character wise is Ross. Like,
22:48
why didn't Ross just kill John after Dutch died?
22:52
Why let him get a taste of freedom only to bring
22:56
the army on him? Why spare him? My simple answer.
23:03
Oh. Well, we don't know how long John has actually
23:06
been back for, which is kind of the piece of
23:09
the puzzle we're missing, because it just depends
23:10
on how long you put off that mission for. But
23:14
my continuity answer would be, yeah, paperwork.
23:18
He had to take Dutch in, get all that squared
23:21
away, get his medal for that, give an update
23:24
on where John is, and then they say, all right,
23:26
now it's time to go get John. I don't know how
23:30
long that could take. We know bureaucracy is
23:31
kind of slow. So maybe that's the simple explanation.
23:35
But that's the only one that I got for you. Okay.
23:38
Other than him just being cruel. Yeah. My other
23:42
question is, what happened to Fordham? I don't
23:45
know. Okay. I mean, maybe he just took Ross's
23:50
position after he retired. I don't know. I'm
23:52
not sure if we ever hear. There's maybe a newspaper
23:54
article that would tell us. Okay. I just didn't
23:57
know if there's some DLC that talked about it.
24:01
Are you searching it up? Yeah. Okay. Oh. He can
24:07
be killed in the final mission. I'm not sure.
24:09
I might have shot him when John goes guns blazing
24:14
out of the barn door. So he could die there.
24:16
Okay. And then it says his fate is left unknown
24:20
if he survives. What do you think is the takeaway
24:24
of the game? like i have three takeaways one
24:28
is there's no redemption you can never right
24:30
your wrongs two you can try but karma will find
24:34
a way or three don't trust people with prosecuting
24:37
authority uh my big section in terms of like
24:41
themes of the game kind of goes into okay so
24:44
i'll i'll respond we'll see if my my theme discussion
24:49
sort of answers any of those questions for you
24:51
so We see examples of how the same actions done
24:55
by different people make the actions either good
24:58
or bad. In gameplay part two, when he's talking
25:02
with the marshal, they're debating about killing
25:06
people and it being wrong. And then John says,
25:09
unless it's court ordered, which then makes the
25:12
killing acceptable. And then we also have the
25:15
women that they save on that mission at Ridgewood
25:17
Farm. They're expressing discontent with the
25:19
system. And we have Ross admitting his tactics
25:23
are unsavory, but he can do what he wants anyway
25:26
because of his position. We also have the train
25:29
conversation when I think it's Jenny, the younger
25:32
woman, says, sometimes I find it impossible to
25:35
make the distinction between a loving act and
25:37
a hateful one. I mean, they often seem to be
25:40
the same thing. So I think with that quote being
25:42
so near to the start of the game, it's sort of
25:45
setting that question up for us. It's expressing
25:48
that there can be little difference between law,
25:51
and outlaw. So my big question is, is John right
25:55
when he says there's a difference between killing
25:58
and murder? On a moral level, I think yes. And
26:02
then within the government from this game, I
26:05
also think yes. Basically, when they killed justice,
26:07
when anyone else kills, it's murder. In some
26:10
cases, it's very accurate. You know, Javier,
26:13
Bill Dutch, they all get what they deserve, in
26:16
my opinion. But the government sees very little
26:19
distinction between them and John, the man who's
26:21
actually trying to change. I like that because
26:24
kind of like, how do I translate this? Like,
26:28
beauty is in the eye of the beholder kind of
26:31
situation. And if you're not in that justice
26:34
system, then you're a murderer. Anything you
26:37
do... Then you're an outlaw. You're either in
26:39
the law or you're out of the law. Yeah, exactly.
26:42
But it can be the same thing. I don't know if
26:46
that answered all your questions. Yeah, I think
26:48
which summarizes to me the theme is you can be
26:52
a good guy doing bad things. I guess the way
26:56
I would say it is people do good things and people
26:59
do bad things and they're everywhere. So I guess
27:05
maybe I'll go into doing more of a breakdown
27:08
of Jon's character then now that we're kind of
27:11
talking about that. And I struggled with this
27:14
a bit. My opinion is that we could have done
27:17
a better job about John's character arc. That
27:21
I wanted to see more of when we talk about he
27:24
may have been a good guy doing bad things. I
27:27
wanted to see that example of John doing that
27:30
in his role as a gang member when he was around
27:34
Desh and Bill. I wanted to know more about what
27:36
he was like. It's really hard to do because I
27:39
gotta tie it back to... Yakuza with Nishiki's
27:42
thing we see him the good of him we see what
27:45
pushes him into doing bad and we see him redeeming
27:48
himself we see that full line here I feel like
27:50
we just get thrown into John and they're telling
27:53
us John's a good guy he's trying to redeem himself
27:55
but I don't want you to tell me that he's a good
27:58
guy I want to see that he's a good guy what he's
28:00
redeeming himself from and the unique thing about
28:03
his character is that he was brought into the
28:06
gang as a child and we don't really know exactly
28:10
what he was exposed to and that's what makes
28:12
it interesting about his redemption is yeah he
28:15
did bad things but at what point is that nature
28:18
versus nurture because he was a child when he
28:22
joined well with that i only have one more comment
28:26
about just the overall afterthoughts about this
28:29
game and this is i don't know if this is controversial
28:33
but i didn't really like the pacing of this game
28:37
We spend so much time in Mexico going in circles,
28:39
helping like the rebels, Reyes and DeSanta. By
28:42
the time we get to capturing Bill, and that is
28:46
the whole purpose of the game in the beginning.
28:48
All we wanted to do was capture Bill. It just
28:50
was so anticlimactic. Like, okay, great. We did
28:53
all that just for three seconds with Bill. I
28:56
wanted some like flashback scenes with John and
29:00
Bill, that angst between those two. Why is Luisa
29:03
getting more screen time than Bill, Dutch, and
29:06
Esquire combined together? Yeah, this is definitely
29:09
a game that plays better if you do the side content.
29:12
Because there's a lot more side content in the
29:17
US side than in the Mexico side. So if you're
29:20
just blazing through it like we did, it does
29:22
feel really imbalanced. And it does feel like
29:24
it takes way too long to get to Bill and Javier.
29:28
Do I still love the game? Absolutely. I still
29:31
have a great time playing it, but it has issues,
29:34
you know, of course. I want to talk about Jack.
29:38
Oh, okay. This entire game, we hear references
29:42
to Jack before we meet him, about his life, the
29:47
childhood he had. We know John and Abigail have
29:50
been trying for years to right the ship and give
29:52
him a normal life. So they may be criminals,
29:55
but... They were trying to reform for the sake
29:59
of their son so that he could be someone else.
30:02
In the end, though, do the government's actions
30:05
turn Jack into what John was, the very thing
30:09
that the government is trying to destroy? Both
30:13
sides, John and the agent sent to punish him,
30:16
they want the same thing on a broad level. The
30:19
end of the outlaw, right? John approaches it
30:22
by reforming and giving Jack a future where he
30:25
can contribute to society and not be in danger.
30:28
The agents on the other side just want to take
30:31
down the remaining outlaws, like John. It's put
30:34
as definitive of an end to the outlaw age as
30:36
possible. Yet, in doing so, they show Jack that
30:42
what we were discussing a minute ago is true.
30:45
The same action can be good or bad depending
30:47
on who does it. It just depends on your perspective.
30:50
And from Jack's perspective, they killed his
30:53
father who was trying to make up for his past.
30:56
So of course he's going to seek revenge. I like
30:58
the way you're going with this because I didn't
31:01
even consider this. And it makes sense because
31:03
Jack's existence as an outlaw is the whole reason
31:08
why we saw the whole rebels in Mexico is where
31:12
you have a government organization where it's...
31:16
pretty much dictatorship you're going to get
31:18
people who push against that and that is what
31:21
jack is that is what jack is doing and that's
31:24
why i need more jack because this game sets him
31:27
up to have to have to make a huge decision right
31:30
to be or not to be an outlaw and we see him from
31:34
my interpretation starting to lean towards the
31:37
way of the outlaw at the end of the game but
31:39
i i don't think that he would do so without guilt
31:42
so i need more Because we see hints that Jack
31:46
is drawn to the allure of the outlaw romanticized.
31:50
One quote describing the book he's reading seems
31:53
to have a direct impact on his future. He says,
31:56
describing the book to John, it's about how this
31:59
man, this brave man, hunts the man who killed
32:02
his father. So that's exactly what Jack ends
32:05
up doing, right? So we see him kind of falling
32:08
into the allure of that. On the other hand, we
32:11
know that this is... Not the life that John would
32:13
want for Jack. He even says, I don't want him
32:16
to become a man like me in part three. And how
32:20
sad but also kind of cool that Jack essentially
32:23
becomes him at the end of the game. I just, I
32:27
love the idea that Jack kills Ross. He gets the
32:30
revenge and the redemption for his father and
32:32
he stops at that. Does not continue on to be
32:35
an outlaw, the man John tried and fought so hard
32:39
for him to not become. But I also really like
32:41
the idea of the government sort of breeding outlaws
32:44
based on their actions. Because as Dutch said,
32:48
they'll find another monster. They have to. Because
32:52
they have to justify their wages. They don't
32:55
care if they're breeding outlaws. I don't disagree
32:58
with Dutch. I think he has a point. Which makes
33:01
it kind of blend into the next topic about who
33:04
we think is going to be the main character. I
33:06
kind of want to jump into it because it has to
33:08
do with Jack. Yeah. it's topic five yeah okay
33:11
rdr2 kathy's predictions here we go exactly i
33:16
so with everything you said about jack i kind
33:20
of like the idea of it jack immediately stops
33:22
there i feel like it's only right for it to be
33:26
jack i can also see that because he already fulfilled
33:30
his revenge there's no need for him to continue
33:33
this way i would love to see him like settle
33:35
down range life be happy and not be involved
33:37
but It's either that or it's a completely new
33:41
plot, new location, new stuff, new characters.
33:45
Maybe we'll get some cameos from old people like
33:48
Bonnie or the sheriff or the strange man. It's
33:54
either A, it's Jack or B, new character, new
33:57
plot, which I'm cheating because I'm doing both.
34:00
Yeah. I mean, the Jack options, I love and hate
34:05
both of them because. There's something so satisfying
34:08
about him being like, you betrayed my father.
34:11
I'm going to betray you and be an outlaw. And
34:15
just kind of what we wanted John to do at times,
34:17
just let loose. But it also really sullies John's
34:23
memory and makes his death feel like fall flat
34:27
and feel pointless. But that's why a sequel with
34:32
him as the protagonist would be so compelling
34:34
because we'd see him, like that's the big choice
34:37
of the game is, do I be an outlaw or do I not
34:41
be an outlaw? And we see him struggle with both
34:43
sides of that. As far as it being something completely
34:47
different. I mean, these are the questions that
34:49
we were all asking, Kathy. How long did you guys
34:52
have to guess for? Eight years. Are you going
34:56
to tell me right now? I'm debating on if we should
35:01
watch the trailer or not. I'm kind of open to
35:03
that. I cannot tell you how many times I watched
35:08
this trailer. People were like scouring every
35:12
millisecond. People were analyzing the hat shapes,
35:15
trying to match them to characters we know. It
35:17
was nuts. So yeah, we'll watch the announcement
35:20
trailer because it doesn't give away any of these
35:22
questions you're asking. And I want you to be
35:24
surprised when we start the game. Because I'm
35:26
going to need your reactions when we start. I
36:29
mean, gives you almost nothing, right? But wait,
36:34
didn't wasn't John saying that when the time
36:36
comes, you have to run? Yes, I had. Let me pull
36:39
it up. I'm so glad you noticed that. I mean,
36:43
preparing for this, I was going through stuff
36:45
and I'm pretty sure he said that to Jack to tell
36:48
him to take Abigail away. Yep. It's a different
36:51
voice. Yeah. So he says to Jack, keep writing
36:55
and don't look back. And then in this trailer,
36:57
we hear, you gotta run and don't look back. Okay,
37:00
so it's kind of different, but same meaning.
37:04
Oh, that line is forever stuck in my head. That's
37:07
going to be when I'm on my deathbed, senile.
37:09
You're going to hear, you gotta run and don't
37:12
look back. And everyone's going to be like, what
37:14
the f*** is she talking about? Anyway, should
37:18
we move on to topic six? Yeah, okay. KFC, Kathy's
37:22
favorite character. We'll reach out to KFC when
37:26
we do it. Sometime before they go out of business.
37:31
Yes, hopefully. So one of the best parts is stale
37:35
biscuit. So I'm just going to make you guess.
37:37
I'm not going to list out the characters this
37:40
time. So who do you think is my stale biscuit?
37:43
There's a lot of contenders here. Yeah. I feel
37:46
like the most stale and not necessarily like
37:48
you hate them is Irish. Because he's kind of
37:55
annoying. And he doesn't want to help. But he's
37:59
also not purposefully trying to mess things up.
38:03
He's just an idiot. I actually forgot about Irish.
38:07
I mean, he's pretty darn stale. I get that. But
38:11
I guess for me, maybe it's disproportional to
38:14
this game. Again, pacing issue. But I said the
38:18
professor. He's not malicious, but he's just
38:21
like drugged up high and absolutely ignorant
38:24
due to being overprivileged with an overly inflated
38:27
ego that leaves no room for a brain with common
38:30
sense. He's not malicious, but he's a stale biscuit.
38:34
Yeah, a bit of a product of his time. And the
38:38
fact that he's very pushy with trying to make
38:41
John do drugs with him. There's enough for two
38:43
and then shoots all of it into his arm. Buddy.
38:47
Calm down. How is he alive is my question. Yeah.
38:52
Anyways, point two for my post -game KFC. Do
38:57
you want to take a stab at it? I want to make
38:59
you guess all of these. Well, because see, I
39:02
want to say John, but I also feel like you might
39:04
try to throw something at me. I think Bonnie's
39:08
in the running. Maybe Abigail. Maybe the Marshal.
39:13
Because I know you have a few problems with John.
39:17
so i think i'm gonna say bonnie close it's abigail
39:22
i mean it's both a female i think because with
39:26
abigail we see a bit more i like how she's like
39:30
no bs can take a joke she knew bonnie was crushing
39:33
on john but she's still able to handle a joke
39:36
but what makes her my kfc is the fact that she
39:39
went from being a prostitute and getting talked
39:42
down being just so minimized in a gang life where
39:45
it's predominantly men and then making it out
39:49
to the other side being successful being able
39:51
to defend herself and her son and on top of all
39:56
that be able to just be be real with john saying
40:01
that if you're back with with dutch and bill
40:03
don't don't be here leave And I love her for
40:07
that. The transformation that her character arc
40:09
goes through without us having any clue, but
40:13
seeing it, knowing that she's made it this far,
40:15
I think that's why she's my KFC. She's a bit
40:18
of an acquired taste, and I think if you don't
40:21
consider her perspective and her background,
40:24
you could dislike her a bit. But once you consider
40:29
those things, it completely flips, and you're
40:31
like, she's great. She doesn't take crap, and
40:36
she's been through a lot, and yeah, made the
40:39
best out of it. So post -game Kentucky score
40:43
share, who I think is hot but doesn't necessarily
40:45
have to do with their personality, or so we think.
40:48
I feel like it should be John, but I also think
40:51
you might have mentioned something about the
40:53
Marshall at some point. I'm sorry. Think if there's
40:57
any other good options. Like maybe Fordham. I
41:03
think I'm going to go Fordham. I'm glad you didn't
41:06
say John. I mean, it would have been John until
41:08
he took his hat off and then it was not John.
41:10
The hat head completely is a turn off. Yeah,
41:13
it is. And here's where I have to ask everyone
41:17
to no judgment, but it's Dutch. No, I get it.
41:23
Everyone will get it. Yeah. Don't worry. He's
41:26
an eloquent speaker. He's very confident. He's
41:30
got an air about him. Although those things you
41:33
cannot see through a picture. So maybe I do need
41:35
to question you just a little bit. Well, yes.
41:40
It's the shoulders. Okay. So us saying that it
41:51
has something to do with personality means we
41:53
need to bring up blind KS. So let's see what
41:57
you said. What was your blind pick? Number one
42:02
is John. You said, definitely someone who goes
42:05
to war and gets the job done. Your next note
42:11
is perhaps my favorite. And I haven't even read
42:14
the rest. But I just know I love your next note.
42:16
Number two is Bill. And you said, possibly the
42:19
father of number one. I mean, I'm kind of accurate
42:23
on that. Not as accurate as you think you are.
42:29
Number three is Javier. You said, probably one
42:32
of the natives or Aztecs that migrated to the
42:35
Wild West. We'll let you have it. Number four
42:39
is DeSanta. You said, I wouldn't be shocked if
42:43
he had a generic name like John Smith. Incorrect.
42:50
Five is Landon Ricketts. Clint Eastwood vibes.
42:56
And you left it at that. Moving on to number
42:59
six, who is Professor McDougal. He might be a
43:04
waiter or a busboy, dot, dot, dot, question mark.
43:07
Why do you always think someone's a waiter? Like
43:10
every game, there's one character you think is
43:13
a waiter. I don't think I'm seeing that many
43:15
people are waiters. This is not the first time.
43:19
Number seven is The Marshal. You said, I don't
43:23
know if I like that sly grin on his face. Fair
43:26
enough. Number eight is Ross. You said, the lawyer
43:30
of some rich person trying to take the land from
43:33
the natives. Nine is Fordham. Another lawyer
43:37
or rich person trying to take the land from poor
43:40
people. Ten is Abraham. You said, Spanish slash
43:45
Wild West version of Robin Hood, i .e. Antonio
43:49
Banderas vibes. Probably fights with a sword.
43:55
I'm just being straight up racist. But you're
43:59
not white, so it's okay. Number 11 is Dutch.
44:04
You said, I thought he was shirtless because
44:06
of the nude -colored shirt. LOL. 12 is Nastas.
44:14
Pretty confident to say he's one of the Native
44:16
Americans in this game. Correct. 13 is Irish.
44:22
I gave you a lot of options this time. Probably
44:26
has alcohol issues. Right on the money with that
44:31
one. And then we have Allende. Villain look.
44:35
Wants to conquer all the land and towns to add
44:38
to his kingdom, even if it means genocide, which
44:41
he wouldn't care about. Pretty accurate. Okay.
44:45
Do you want to know what you picked? Yeah. Kathy's
44:49
blind Kentucky Scorcher. Number one. I like the
44:54
scruff, and he seems like he doesn't mind getting
44:56
his hands dirty. That's drawn. But then you followed
45:01
it up to say, I also have to give credit to number
45:04
five. That's Landon Ricketts. Because even though
45:07
he isn't my blind KS, he looks like the Western
45:10
version of Sarah from YZero. I have to say I
45:16
don't see it, Kathy. I don't. see it either now
45:19
that I know more about it, but I don't know what
45:23
Kathy was thinking when I put those in. But hey,
45:28
you picked Jon. I picked well. Good pick. But
45:32
I guess, what would your KS be, Jon? I can't
45:35
not pick Jon. I cannot return to a time when
45:38
I did not know Jon as a character. Yeah. I guess
45:42
your LFC has to be Jon too then. Yeah. Pretty
45:46
safe to say. I like the Marshal. As a character.
45:49
But he's no John. You know. There's just something
45:53
about a man trying to better himself. That we
45:56
all like right. I do have to say though. For
46:00
this game. I added a trash category. I want to
46:04
share with you. Four different people made it
46:07
into the trash category. And when we say trash.
46:10
It's just. What are you doing? I'm dunking DeSanta
46:14
into the trash. Preemptively. Trash straight
46:17
up. I don't know if we need to go too deep into
46:21
it. Should I try to guess all four? Oh, yeah.
46:25
You should try for all four. Yeah. Or do you
46:27
want to finish your DeSanta first? DeSanta, a
46:30
lot of issues on top of betraying Jon and just
46:33
causing us so much unnecessary gameplay. So that's
46:36
my issue. Okay, you got DeSanta. Reyes. Just
46:42
cheating on Luisa itself is enough. Jail. Straight
46:46
to jail. Straight to June. This is where it gets
46:51
a little trickier because I have multiple ones.
46:55
I'll go ahead and say Ross. Yeah. Nice. He's
47:00
the reason why John's dead. Simple. Olende. Nice.
47:09
He got all four. He forced himself on the woman.
47:14
Sorry, I can't say it. He pretty much raped the
47:17
females in this game, so we'll leave it at that.
47:20
But who else would you put in the trash category?
47:24
I'm missing someone, aren't I? Deeks. Norman
47:27
Deeks. Oh, yeah. And anyone who had a hand in
47:31
Bonnie being hurt in any way. Four for four.
47:38
Four for four. Four for four. Why is that so
47:41
hard to say? We're losing it. Okay. With that,
47:46
should we move on to topic seven? Yes. Okay.
47:50
Let's see if I can get three for three. I doubt
47:52
it. Don't hold your breath. So topic seven is
47:57
final counts or stats. I'll let you know that
48:01
there's three stats this time. The first one
48:04
is how many times you use the Gatling gun. God,
48:06
no, but too many. Yeah. Dang it. I hate that
48:10
thing. Good guess, though. How many cows we've
48:14
seen? No. No. It's not how many cows. Our courses.
48:21
No animals. Dude, what kind of stats are you
48:27
choosing this game? Some of them you've seen
48:30
before. I was going to say the bird one, but
48:33
I think that's too much PTSD on you. How many
48:36
times John's rolling his eyes? Or he coughs?
48:40
Or smokes? I'm going to give you one more guess.
48:44
How many times he smokes? Or someone smokes?
48:48
Yeah, there's one. Cigarettes smoked. I feel
48:52
like there's a lot in this game, but at the same
48:54
time, probably not as much as Big B's. Let's
48:56
do 26. 15 cigarettes. Not too far off. And three
49:01
cigars. There's two more stats, but you might
49:06
be out of guesses. I think you are limiting me
49:10
on how many guesses, but I also don't know how
49:12
many I'm going to get right. We have another
49:14
repeat. Pedestrian dives. Oh. Pedestrian pancakes.
49:22
No PPs, just PDs. How many times did someone
49:27
dive out of my way? That was such a good one.
49:30
I should have known that. I feel like five is
49:32
too less, but off the top of my head, it's still
49:35
eight or 11. Stu, eight. Well, they're both wrong.
49:44
They're both wrong. Okay, five? Four. I need
49:49
to stop guessing. The final stat. Are you ready?
49:54
Drunk stumbles. Oh. Okay, we knew there's at
49:59
least two. Probably three. I'd say four again.
50:04
Three. Oh, dang it. I really need to go as our
50:07
first guess. I know. Dude, I'm frustrated about
50:12
that. That might have been your worst performance
50:15
on the steps. Yeah. Well, anyway. Do you have
50:21
any closing thoughts on Red Dead Redemption or
50:23
should we close out the episode? I think we should
50:26
close out the episode. I'm excited to see what
50:29
RDR2 brings. I'm so excited to talk about that
50:33
game. I know you are. You've been excited about
50:35
this game since we even started this podcast.
50:39
I know. And I waited until I'm like, I need to
50:42
make sure that we're kind of good at this before
50:44
we take on this game. So hopefully we're good.
50:49
Yeah. But I enjoyed it. I had a fun time analyzing
50:53
this game. Definitely, like always, picked up
50:55
on things, had realizations that I have not had
50:57
before. I'm glad. And that's the whole purpose
51:00
of this podcast is for you to see things in my
51:04
eyes and pick up things you haven't seen before.
51:06
Exactly. And hopefully it's the same for everyone
51:09
else. Yep. Well, new game next week. Gameplay
51:14
will be up tomorrow. That'll kind of spoil the
51:17
surprise, but you can still send us your guess.
51:21
We'll have a quote. Message us on Instagram.
51:24
Contact us through our website. Email us. It's
51:28
all in the episode description. You'll win something
51:31
if you get it right. Yeah, that's kind of it.
51:34
Subscribe to our YouTube channel so we can hit
51:36
100. We can finally change our username. Please.
51:42
Perfect. Audacity on 1, 3, 2, 1. Thank you for
51:47
listening, and don't forget to send in any questions,
51:49
comments, or game suggestions. You can find all
51:51
our contact info on our website, replayreviewspod
51:54
.com, or contact us directly through our site.
51:56
Did we completely miss something? Are we way
51:59
off the mark? Or you just want us to take a deeper
52:01
look at anything from the game? We'll tackle
52:03
any topics you all want to hear in our season
52:05
wrap -up episode. We also have a Reddit where
52:07
we discuss anything we're curious about. Go take
52:10
a look and let us know what you're thinking.
52:12
Think you can guess which game is up next based
52:14
on this obscure quote? Message us on Instagram
52:19
or contact us through our website to see if you're
52:21
right. Our theme music is Condemned by Iggy Toast.
52:25
They'll play you out and we'll be back next week
52:26
with a new game.