Latest / Art of the Question / Living with BCI - Nathan Copeland - #11

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Living with BCI - Nathan Copeland - #11 · Art of the Question

• speaker-0: we start at the beginning, if you don't mind me asking, ⁓ when did you become paralyzed and how did it happen? speaker-1: Uh, in 2004, um, was in a car accident. speaker-0: Mm hmm. And, uh, 2004. that is, uh, quite a, quite a long, long time ago already. Um, but after you became paralyzed, um, you didn't immediately get the BCI of is my understanding. Um, but quite soon you did enroll to be part of the clinical trials. Can you maybe Take me back to that moment and why you decided to enroll in the program. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ so I was 18 at the time I had just started, ⁓ college. And when I was in my accident, I went to a, a rehab hospital in Pittsburgh and it's part of, ⁓ a big network that's through the, the university of Pittsburgh. So they just asked me if I wanted to be put on a research registry and they said, anytime. You know, a researcher was looking for a participant with a, a specific, ⁓ you know, injury or illness or something. They could just, ⁓ contact me directly. And I thought, yeah, that sounded really cool. Cause you know, you never know what's going to come up in the future. And at the time, like every, everyone was talking about like stem cells being the cure for everything. I'm like, it's still my, but I definitely wasn't. thinking about BCI back then. Um, yeah. And then, like 2013 around there, just got a call from them and they asked if I wanted to join. was like, yep. speaker-0: That's it. How does that happen? So you are on this list for almost 10 years and then all of a sudden you get this ⁓ phone call. ⁓ What was that like and ⁓ how did you feel? speaker-1: Like at the time I just thought it was like really cool. Cause you know, I grew up with like. Sci-fi and anime and all that stuff. And so like, was aware of BCI is like a concept, but I, I didn't know that it was like, uh, something that was actively being, uh, research. So yeah, I thought it was cool. And I. This is funny. I went in for a screening and I actually didn't qualify. Um, the first time, uh, this was probably like actually 2012 around then. Um, one of the things that, uh, would exclude people was a significant hand function, like in their, uh, protocols and stuff. And I can raise my wrist up, but I actually can't do it. ⁓ the opposite way, against gravity, but that was enough to be considered significant hand function. So I actually didn't qualify, ⁓ right at that time. And I was, ⁓ super bummed out because, you know, was like, ⁓ I'm going to control a robot and all this cool stuff. Yeah, I didn't qualify. then like a year, year and a half later, they asked me again, I was like, yeah, I really wanted to do it the first time. And they said that they had changed the, the protocols and stuff. that's how I, I got into that and it was actually kind of lucky because, uh, when they first asked me the study wasn't including, um, Implants in the sensory cortex. So it was just controlling a row robotic arm. And then what I actually joined was to have, ⁓ to implants in motor cortex and to in sensory cortex. So I ended up being the first human in the world to have implants in a sensory cortex that let them kind of just like send a little bit of, ⁓ Basically they zap my brain and it feels like a sensation coming from my own hand. So it was cool that I kind of got delayed a little bit. speaker-0: You got the enhanced technology by, ⁓ by having it delayed. ⁓ the sensory part is definitely something I would love to discuss, ⁓ in a moment. ⁓ but first I'm, I'm curious. Okay. So you, you get the call, you make it into the program this time and then what you, you, you plan a day to, get the, ⁓ surgery. ⁓ and were you nervous to, get it at all? And, was your family maybe a bit nervous because this is groundbreaking stuff. I mean, it's still feels like science fiction to me, but it's still in an experimental phase in the, in the sense that people cannot go to the store and buy this technology. are still exploring it. So you were really a pioneer, if you will. ⁓ to test out something that is, yeah, pretty, it's incredible technology, but at the same time, it's also pretty, it's literally going into your brain. So I can imagine that must've been pretty scary as well. speaker-1: ⁓ Yeah, so... I guess it was, it was still a couple of months away from the time that I actually decided I was going to do it and actually had the surgery. ⁓ and yeah, like I wasn't really nervous at the time. Like I was just like dead set. Like, yeah, this is what I'm going to do. It was kind of like, ⁓ since I knew like. Especially back, back at the time you really had to just be in the right place at the right time to even get asked. And then I knew that, you know, the criteria to actually, you know, join was so small that I kind of felt like, you know, was like ⁓ a duty to like do it. ⁓ Yeah. Like I said, it was like back then, like people didn't know about it. And it was like, it wasn't just all over the internet or the news and yeah. So they basically had to know who you were and where you were. And you had to be right around there. Kind of just saw it as a chance to push the science forward and kind of, you know, help people coming after me kind of bypass the, uh, the phase where, know, you realize your life has changed and you probably can't do the things that you love to do, um, anymore for, you know, whether it's a disease or a an accident and you know, yeah, you just have like a kind of despair at that point. Even if you're like a super, you know, upbeat person and life doesn't get you down, you kind of, you still have that moment where you're like, man. My life's going to be different forever. Now. I just kind of thought that in the future it'll be like, you know, you get told you can't do the things the same way, but here's some options to help you do them. You know, in a new way, maybe even a cooler way, cause it's just your brain. And like I said, I, I wasn't that worried about it, but my mom was super against it. Um, Like you said, it's stuff going into your brain and she didn't really, you know, at the time get why I would be okay with just having a brain surgery that I didn't technically need for any reason. And, uh, you know, I had been through all this stuff. I, I had my accident and I broke my neck and then actually in 2010, I had a stroke and, and through all this, the, the one thing that I was really lucky. Four was, you know, I didn't have any actual like mental deficits from it. Like I still, you know, was as smart as I ever was. And then, you know, I want to have brain surgery and, and so she was against it, like my grandma was super supportive and my sister was okay with it. So even though my mom, like at that point boycotted, like taking me to like, the, all the testing and screening I had to have done before the surgery. You know, some other people kind of, you know, got behind me and, and helped me get through all that phase. And then now my mom's like, yeah, with it. speaker-0: Well, that's incredible. And I mean, I do understand why it would have been very difficult for your mom in such a situation. the surgery itself, what exactly is it that they do? How does it work? What do they put in there? yeah, what's the technology behind it? speaker-1: Yeah. So, ⁓ basically they, cut a little hole in, well, like a square, ⁓ in your skull and kind of, you know, pop it out and, ⁓ the implants I have are called Utah rays. They're made by Blackrock, ⁓ Neurotech and they're basically a tiny like square. with a grid of little teeny spikes. Each one of those is an electrode that gets wired to, ⁓ you probably can't see it, you can't see it, but there's a pedestal that's screwed down, mounted to my skull that connects to those electrodes. And then they can connect the cables to the, pedestals on top of my head and yeah, they're just little tiny things and ⁓ Yeah, it's kind of awesome. The surgery was, I don't know, like seven or eight hours, I think. Like I was, I was out of it and it actually, ⁓ yes, I woke up and my head hurt. ⁓ they'd actually given me painkillers and I didn't really tolerate them well. So I wasn't, I wasn't doing too well and. Yeah, actually I stayed in the hospital a little longer than I had hoped. I was in there a whole, a whole week and, uh, my mom actually came, came up and stayed with me even though, you know, she wasn't into it, but since I stayed longer than I was supposed to, and was kind of having a rough time, uh, she came up and stayed with me cause she was still my mom and, uh, Yeah, and that seems like forever ago. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, because it's, it's, it's over. it was over 10 years ago, ⁓ that you received the implant. Correct. speaker-1: Yeah, that was, um, October, 20, November, 2014. And it was actually, Yeah, I had that surgery and then a few weeks later, ⁓ everyone kind of realized that they weren't in like the like ideal spot. ⁓ they were actually like, I don't know how, how far, but just, just a little teeny bit off from being to where they could actually stimulate and I could feel it in my hand. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: And that's just, you know, cause it was research and I was the first human in the world. And, ⁓ that's kind of the, the cool thing and the maybe not as cool thing is, know, when you're on the cutting edge stuff doesn't always work out, but. You know, it's been, you know, over 10 years and now the. The screenings and stuff they do before your surgery are even better for them to be able to like pinpoint where, where it should go to, to let you feel something on your hand and the way they, they place them is just more accurate. You know, they can get exactly where, where they want. But so yeah, so they weren't in the, in a great spot and I actually, you know, they said I basically had. three options and I could just stop there and get them taken out or I could come in and they would do whatever testing they could for now the way it was and then have them taken out or I could just stay in and they would plan for a surgery to just take them out and then at the same time put new ones in. ⁓ and I'll look like it's crazy how. like little, a little difference in your brain can be. So they just moved on. They, they put new ones in and just a slightly different spot. then, yeah, I was like, I didn't, I didn't join to quit at the very first hiccup. So that's why in 2015, May 4th, Star Wars day, Like the coolest day to get implants. ⁓ yeah, I just had another surgery and I went home the next day. speaker-0: So is that still so then then they updated it and then they positioned it better and then after that it started working, working a lot better. And is that still the same one that you have today? speaker-1: Yeah, like everything was okay after and ⁓ the same, same ones still, still kicking. They're not as like things aren't as great and like, ⁓ Like, guess your brain doesn't really like having stuff like stuck in it. So, you know, it's, it's one of those things that after all you start to get like, uh, probably scar tissue builds up and your brain just kinda, you know, your brain juice just kinda gets, gets on them. so The signal isn't not as great as it used to be, but it's still working. ⁓ first, you know, most stuff and it's one of those things that when I joined the study, ⁓ in the like consent form and stuff, it was just for a year. It was, it was like a year long study just to, you know, see if they worked and, and they were safe. And they said, like, at the end of that year. If things were still going okay. And I wanted, could extend it to the next consent I formed what or consent form I signed was for up to three years after surgery. And then I had that and it was up to five and I hit that and then it was 10 and now it's just, ⁓ you know, until, until they stopped working and that's, you know, just the rules you have to play by for the. You know, the FDA and all that to, to even let you have them or even let them get researched is, all along the way they have to be like, yep, he's so okay. Like we didn't know holes in his brain or something like, and, ⁓ yeah. So it's been a lot longer than, than anyone even, you know, thought, ⁓ You know, they said maybe like five years, like maybe 10 years ⁓ would be like the life cycle of an implant. And a lot of that's based on like monkeys that, you know, bang their heads and like rub poo on their heads and stuff. I'm like, I can probably keep it a bit longer than a monkey. So. speaker-0: Yeah. And if, ⁓ so, so it's, it's been over over 10 years that you, that you have the BCI. ⁓ speaker-1: And we have the, like I currently hold the record for the longest, ⁓ implants that have been in and by like a good bit now, maybe like four years, maybe. speaker-0: margin. That's an incredible record to have. And how has BCI improved your life? ⁓ Because I believe there's two things. One of them is controlling things and then one of them is the sensory part. So also being able to feel things as well. ⁓ If we speak about controlling things, what do I... Yeah, what does that mean? Is it ⁓ the robot arm like you mentioned, or is it also a computer like maybe play video games as well? What is the state of that technology at the moment? speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ big thing is ⁓ for a long time, ⁓ the only place I could use any of this was in the lab. You know, like I don't have a robot arm at my house and, and that kind of stuff. Like it would just, it's not really feasible, especially back, back then. Now there's some like smaller arms that, know, you might be able to mount to a wheelchair and stuff, but yeah. So it was just in the lab and they had a. A robot arm set up and, ⁓ in the beginning, like the tasks I did were like split up. I would come in and I go in about three days a week for like three or four hours at a time. I've been doing this the whole time. So I've been there a lot and, ⁓ yeah, we go in and one day, you know, just moving the arm around and. You start real slow, so you're just up and down and left and right. And you know, then, then slowly you got in back and forth and opening and closing the hand and rotating the wrists and all that. And then the other, the other stuff I would do was the sensory stuff. So they would just, I would just watch a screen and they would, you know, send a little jolt of electric into my brain and I would. Tell them where I felt it and what it felt like. And so it would, ⁓ always be at like the base of the, my fingers, like on my palm, top of my palm and what it felt like could range from like pressures or tingles to like warmth and sometimes tapping or vibration. And then, you know, ⁓ ⁓ man, it's been so long that I don't, it gets hard to be like, ⁓ yeah, it was like two weeks later, but it was probably like, You know, month or two later after, you know, everything getting mapped out and, and, uh, where I felt stuff depending on which electrode they sent electric into. Um, then we started doing stuff where I would control the robot and then the robot sensors would, uh, then tell the computer and stuff where to stimulate to make me. Uh, feel like, you know, the, object that I was grasping, you know, was. It wasn't like one to one, it was supernatural. Like it just felt exactly the same. when I would grab an object with a robotic hand, the pressure on the sensors of those fingers would cause like a pressure on my hand. depending on how ⁓ strong the grasp was, the sensation I felt would go up and down and. ⁓ Yeah. So I did that for a while and then eventually we started using like the control to control a computer cursor. And you know, then, you know, a year or two later, after I started, ⁓ they started testing like, ⁓ like before this, this is all like a bunch of computers and six monitors and You know, the equipment's in like a like tower rack and stuff. And then we started testing a system that was portable. So it was like a medical tablet that was really not very powerful, like computer wise, like an iPhone was probably more, more advanced than it, but it was what was already like approved by the FDA to use in, you know, a setting like that. And it was just all the stuff condensed into a littler box, ⁓ except for simulation. ⁓ that's one of those things that you still need, ⁓ a good bit of specialized equipment and, you know, stuff to keep, like, make sure all the, the voltages are safe and all that, ⁓ that kind of stuff. so March, 2020, right when everything shut down, ⁓ with COVID, ⁓ They had all this stuff, ⁓ figured out like protocols and stuff to let me take that tablet home. So when everything was shut down and I was just at home, I had the tablet at home. And so I used it to do stuff like draw and, ⁓ play some video games like, you know, saw the hedgehog and I played. At the time, slay the spire, like a lot, ⁓ with it. And, ⁓ yeah, it's the point where it started having an impact in my. Like daily at home life, but for me, it's always just been, ⁓ basically recreational. like I said, I don't have a robot at home and I'm actually lucky enough that I have like. speaker-0: That's speaker-1: like a decent amount of like arm control, shoulders and like I said, can move my wrist, but I can't move my fingers and. Like I have bicep control, but not triceps. So I can still do a good bit on my own. Like I can get a drink with a cup with a handle and. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: And stuff. So basically ⁓ I only use it at home, you know, for basically stuff like drawing and playing games when I have, when I have free time and, ⁓ Yeah, it's one of those things that it's... Even a few years ago, I got an updated system that is a lot better. It runs off like a Microsoft surface tablet and ⁓ they wrote a program. it actually sends the control to my actual ⁓ desktop PC, which is like, you know, has like. of RTX like 40 80. So it's like, like I can play whatever I want on it and they could do, they can do whatever. So it's not limited to the, um, the actual specs of the whatever computer they gave me to, to control it. It just outputs that as either like a cursor or keyboard emulator. So speaker-0: Yeah. And when you control a cursor, it, are you thinking of moving the cursor from left to right, for example, or are you thinking of moving your hand that would move the cursor? speaker-1: Because so controlling like even the robot and the, and the cursor, like every time I go to use it, like every day we have to train a decoder. So I basically watch, like if I'm going to control a robot arm, watch the screen and it has a, like a virtual arm and it moves like to a target to the right. And I think about moving my own arm. ⁓ towards that target to the right. And then it does that for, you know, targets in different, all the different directions. And like, if I'm grasping, it'll do that. And I think about that while it's, while it's basically on autopilot. then while I do that, then the computer looks at the areas of my brain that were, active on those, you know, this is, you know, brain's crazy because you think about it and it's just this little TV chip that's in there. But so it's like, it's a, it's a very small actual area of my brain that they're even recording from, but they can figure out, you know, when I was, when the target was to the right, this area of my brain was active and then it, it builds a decoder. So, uh, that has to get done every day. And that's one of those things that, you know, One day it's going to be a lot easier and you know, maybe every week you might have to do it or something, but ⁓ Yeah. And then if it's a cursor, I basically think about kind of, more like moving a mouse around like in front of me, like more like this. Uh, and then it's one of those things that once, once I'm using it for a little while, like, like I kind of stopped thinking about it that much. Um, it kind of becomes more. I don't know, like, like I'm not thinking exactly like I have to move my arm or hand this way. I'm just in, like, I just say in the zone where it's just, you know, I'm just moving it where, where I need to be, but not thinking, you know, specifically about each individual step and, and thinking like more like focus on my actual arm. It just kind of you get in the zone and, and it's just, it's an in-between thing where I'm not thinking specifically about my arm. I'm not thinking specifically about like the cursor. Like I'm just kind of, it's a like in-between zone where I'm just thinking and it's, it's doing what I want. So. speaker-0: That's incredible and it actually speaks to how well the technology works that it becomes second nature almost and you don't have to think of it so hard speaker-1: Yeah, it's one of those things that that was also just the, the evolution of, you know, research because it didn't always work, you know, super great, uh, in the beginning is just because no human had done it before. And it's one of those things that You know, as, as time went on, you know, the researchers learn more about the brain and how it works and then they can write their, their programs and decoders, uh, you know, better to be more efficient. And, and so everything kind of just, uh, snowballs like technology just does that. Like, you know, the iPhone gets invented and then suddenly like, Everyone's doing it in each year. It's better and better. And it just all, all builds on, on what you start with. And so now, you know, someone that gets, uh, you know, whether it's an implant at, at Pittsburgh or, know, on Neuralink, like it all like was based on stuff that got done, you know, when I started like 10 years ago. so everyone that comes now, like leapfrogs over all the boring stuff that I had to do that, you know, didn't work that great. And they kind of just skip, skip all that and get to, you know, start doing the cool stuff, which is pretty cool to be a part of. speaker-0: Yeah, I can imagine. So, and also because the technology is still the same one that you have had for all these years, the hardware, but because of technological advancements, the software gets updated every time and therefore your system works better every year, even though it's still the same thing from 10 years ago. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ What's the impact of AI? What has that been for ⁓ BCI technology? ⁓ Because obviously, AI has improved significantly over the last three to four years. Did those improvements in artificial intelligence also translate to ⁓ BCI and your field? speaker-1: Uh, it for sure will. Um, like right now, like, uh, it's not really getting used in, what I'm doing. Um, but it's one of those things like, now that I've been doing it for so long, they have like this historical record of like, you know, all the times that we trained a decoder. So now they're trying to look at, you know, look at that large data set and be like, can we figure out like a good spot to just start from? Like, you know, cause every day it's a little different and you know, one day I might be thinking about moving to the right, but maybe like my arm is in like a different position. Like my posture is different. So that thing to the right isn't exactly the same as thinking to the right, you know, a week ago. So that's why you always have to train a new decoder, but, you know, stuff like AI might be able to look at all of it, all of the data that I've thought about going to the right. it might be able to just know that this is, you know, like a good, a good place to start for that. And then maybe. Maybe training only takes like, you know, 30 seconds where you run through all the directions and it goes, okay, we know this is where. you know, where the activity will be and it can just start decoded. You know, it's just better to start with. And so I think stuff like that AI is definitely going to have a big impact on, a lot of research, like I don't get to follow it all as, as closely as I think it would be cool to, ⁓ Stuff that other groups are doing and all that. Cause I'm just kind of, you know, spending all my time doing, doing what I'm doing. So I don't know how much AI gets used other places, but it's one of those things that, ⁓ it will definitely have an impact and, ⁓ and probably make things a lot easier. speaker-0: Yeah, and what are some games that you're currently able to play? What's it like gaming with a BCI? speaker-1: really cool. Like, ⁓ I just play simple games, you know, you know, ⁓ cursor ⁓ or a keyboard, ⁓ you know, the basic directions and like one button, sometimes two buttons will, will be able to play. it started off, ⁓ the first game I played was is either song that had drug two or Pac-Man Championship Edition DX Plus. So I played a lot of Pac-Man and Sonic 2 to begin with, like I said, it's just, Sonic's just left, right and jump basically. And yeah, when I took it home, I played a lot of... It's called riding five. it's like an airplane, a game, ⁓ top down, just moving around, around the screen and shooting, I don't know, aliens and stuff. So I played that a lot. ⁓ especially because it was a game that you basically had infinite lives. So I could still play, I could play through the whole game, ⁓ in a sitting like in a couple hours and, and, ⁓ then I started playing slave, the spire, which is, ⁓ a card game, uh, that, that I played a lot and I played it a lot with BCI and without BCI and the, the second game just came out last month in early access and I already have like a hundred hours in it. I'm almost past, you know, the amount of hours I played on the first one. And, that's mostly been on BCI. Control but I did play it a little bit ⁓ Yeah. And then just like, ⁓ random games here and there at the lab. started playing, ⁓ just one day. Cause it was like, ⁓ this game might be cool. ⁓ trombone champion. Okay. So that's basically just up and down because I have to play on it's called auto to mode. it just, it all I have to do is move up and down and it will, it'll do all the toots for me. ⁓ And then that's the latest part too. I'm kind of blanking on what else I've played in between there, but speaker-0: That's a good list. And you also did some drawing, right? speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ that started with, ⁓ one of the tasks that I was doing at the lab was like, ⁓ connect the dots of like a cat. And that was just, There's that was on like, ⁓ after a year or so of doing things with the cursor and click, how they were doing, just someone was like, Hey, let's try it this way. And they wrote a different, a different kind of decoder program. And so I was, I was using that and it actually worked a lot better. And just once I went through the decoder training and I did a task where like all I'm doing is Moving the cursor to like a target. Then we started just doing basically like free play of, you know, ⁓ doing connect the dots of this cat face. And so it was just a really good way to assess how good my control was. Cause it's obvious, like if I get it, you know, from the one to the two and it, it's a. You know, not all over the place. Then, you know, control is pretty good. And, and so that summer, 2020 that had it at home, ⁓ I decided to just do the connect the dots and then actually colored it in. So I, I colored it in as a Calico cat and, ⁓ that was. the start of my digital art, ⁓ creative phase, like I had done art already, but this is where, ⁓ that was right. When NFTs were hitting there, like, all right, big boom. I was like, ⁓ man, someone might buy this for a lot of money. And I, so I'm in an NFT and put it up and it sat there for like eight months because I was like, ⁓ yeah. I guess I can't sell solid for like a million dollars because no one knows who I am. Cause I never, I never tried to really build up a social media thing and eight months later, someone built a bought it for like, don't know. I it was like 10 grand at the time, but that was like, like I said, it was, that was right as NFTs were like coming back down from there. Like really, really. like peak. ⁓ then yeah, so if I put up some more drawings after that, them for like not, not even close to that much. And, ⁓ Like a little over a year ago, I was like, Oh, I can, you know, make this cat into a meme coin. And I was like, so I did that and made a video of that and it kind of went up and then it just crashed. And so I made no money off of that, but. Yeah, I just, I always look at things that would be cool to do and just, especially things that no one's like done before. like, yeah, I'm just going to do that. And it might serve like no real purpose, especially not like as research. just like, ⁓ no one's played this game before. Like I'm going to do that just, just because. then. ⁓ I always look at it like the- first time we did cursor control and using like Microsoft paint, it was just a bunch of scribbles. Cause like I said, stuff doesn't always work, but I looked at it and I was like, Oh, maybe that would be in like a museum one day. Like, so I named it the birth of a genre. So it's like, there's going to be lots of cyborgs after me, like making art and there, there already is like, you know, they're the one of the Neural link patients like she draws now and it's just super cool that I don't know right now. No one like knows my, I mean, some people know who I am and what I've done, but maybe, maybe one day, like I said, it'll be like in a museum and he'd like, he did this like a hundred years ago and there's some 50 years ago. It's, it's for sure going to be after him. After I'm dead, cause that's always what happens with, with artists and then it's going to be worth like millions. I'm going to be like, man, well, I'm going to be dead, but it would be cool to have that while I was alive and yeah, build a dream house and all that. speaker-0: Yeah, but it's cool. mean, ⁓ that, ⁓ that NFT story, I mean, it's, it's, well, was it probably the first, ⁓ BCI drawn NFC on the planet? Probably. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's super cool. And currently this is something that I really wanted to ask you and get your opinion on because currently we're experimenting with BCI technology in order to. speaker-1: See, for real, yeah. speaker-0: help people, ⁓ well, for example, who maybe became paralyzed or have some other, yeah, could need some form of assistance with the BCI. ⁓ But could you see a future where everyone has a BCI and where people ⁓ not just use it to ⁓ do things they currently can, but just maybe in a distant future have JGPT wired straight into their brains. What do you think of such a future? you think that's realistic? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, maybe not everyone, but, ⁓ eventually it will get to the point where, you know, if you, if you want one, you can, you can just get one. And I definitely see, you know, a lot of people wanting that just because, you know, they might be able to play Sonic two. Like with a controller, but doing it with your brain is just cooler. And then so There's definitely going to be people like that to just want to do something cool. But then there is like the, You know, ⁓ these implants don't get just used for like controlling a cursor and stuff. do. They get used for like, you know, people with ALS to like speak again. And so that could be one, ⁓ like really big use case of, know, if you can think about, you know, words and it just will type an email out for you. Then, you know, you could do that anytime, anywhere. And so that would be huge for like productivity. Um, yeah. So there's, there's all these other kinds of uses that BCI can still get used for. So eventually, yes, a lot of people that, you know, air quotes, you know, don't need it, uh, will want it and have it. maybe like distant, distant future everyone, but a good chunk of people I can see, ⁓ definitely wanting to use it. speaker-0: Yeah. mean, I've, I'm always thinking of, ⁓ that how cool would it be to just be able to communicate with something just by thinking of what you want to say to that person and just not, not even use your mouth, just the telepathy basically. ⁓ but then there would also probably, ⁓ be, I don't know, maybe if you don't pay your, your BCI premium. membership in time and then you got woken up at 7am by an Amazon commercial. ⁓ Jeff Bezos spamming your brain with ads. Yeah. So that would be, would be a bit scary. You also met Obama, right? speaker-1: into your lane. Yeah, in 2016. speaker-0: What was that like and how did that happen? speaker-1: ⁓ so it started with, just went into the lab one day and, one of the researchers was like, would you want to meet the president? And at the time I was like, yeah, like who wouldn't want to meet the president and, ⁓ Now it might be a little different, but, uh, it was one of those things that Obama always did, uh, White House frontiers conference. So it was going to be in Pittsburgh. that year on like the, university of Pittsburgh campus and also across the CMU campus Carnegie Mellon. And, ⁓ so it was in like a couple different buildings and the conference just basically brought together. Like the researchers and stuff, people working on, ⁓ like the name implied, like the frontiers of like one building. think it was all like. You know, cancer research and, and, and that kind of stuff. And then I was in a, building that had like, ⁓ it had a space X dragon capsule and it had a, ⁓ a Mars Rover, which. Like you see them on TV and stuff and you're like, ⁓ like it's a little, little cute Rover, but no, it's like the size of like a Jeep or like probably bigger than like, ⁓ or as big as like a. a Hummer or something like it was a, it was a big thing, but they had, ⁓ they had a hollow lens, ⁓ headset so you could put it on and like, look around and like see Mars and like the tracks from where it was. ⁓ that was super cool. And so there was just a couple of different things in, in the building that I was in and we just, ⁓ it was definitely stressful. Like. A lot of anxiety just standing around. had to come in like the day before and, and you stand like, basically like they're like, stand here and like this order and he's, he's going to come through this door over there at, this time. And then he's going to shake your hands in this order. Then you're going to do this thing and you know, shake his hand with the robot and fist bump. And, and they kept saying like, just remember he's like just a guy. And then, then the person that was there with us, like saying that he'd always be like a super powerful guy or like some like, okay, well you don't need to like add a qualifier if he's just a guy. But so like, was, it was a time and of course no one's ever on time for that, that kind of stuff. So we're just kind of standing there and waiting and, ⁓ he comes over and shakes our hands and, ⁓ it was really cool because he was like just a guy. And, ⁓ it was awesome that, you know, because he talked with us a bit and then, you know, I shook his hand with the robot, we fist bumped, and then he turned around and like, basically explained like all of it to the people. It was like press and stuff like watching and recording. And, ⁓ you could definitely tell that he was there because he cared about the science and the research and, and kind of. saw it as really valuable to, to advance. So it wasn't just like, got told to go like, go here and check this robot arm thing. And he's just like, okay, like it was just a cool photo op, but yeah. So I definitely could have just like sat and talked to him like all day or whatever, cause he just seemed like a cool dude. ⁓ Yeah, so I mean the total interaction was probably like five minutes, like, but yeah, it was definitely cool. Probably the coolest. person I've met because of PCI like. I don't meet a lot of like, you know, air quotes, cool people, but the, can't say it's the coolest thing I've ever done because of BCI. Cause I got to go to Japan. I've actually been to Japan twice now and like spoken at like Osaka university and, some, some stuff. And it was always like my dream to go to Japan. I thought I never would after my accident because it's a lot of money and, and. a long flight. yeah, so it was awesome meeting him and Yeah. speaker-0: Awesome. And ⁓ I'm curious to hear, ⁓ because ⁓ when you went to Japan, is that also part of what you do with ⁓ BCI can do better where you kind of help explain what it's like living with BCI and being a spokesperson for the technology? speaker-1: Yeah, that came about just, ⁓ Also, it's like all the coolest stuff that I've done has just been, I've gone there one day and they're like, Hey, you want to do this? I'm like, yeah, you already know. wanted to, I need to do something cool. Okay. So I just, I went in there like, you want to go to Japan? And they're like, yeah, I already knew that. And, they already knew that. And it was just one of the conferences that neural control of movement conference was going to be in, uh, Japan that year. And it kind of just, uh, I use that as the excuse to, finally get to go to Japan. And I kind of was like, okay, how can I, how can I fund this? And I got connected with a professor at Osaka university and he kind of arranged for me to. Give a talk at the university. then I went to the conference and then, ⁓ kale university in Tokyo. did a little, ⁓ presentation with, then yeah, BCI can do better. ⁓ it just started as my YouTube username. It was one of those things that, ⁓ I was doing a lot of tasks that like monkeys had already done. And so it was like, I was like, ⁓ we should make this YouTube video and just do all the tasks that, you know, someone did with like EEG. Like someone played world of warcraft way back in the day with, with an EEG headset. And I was like, ⁓ I want to play final fantasy 14. Cause that's a better game and also a better BCI. And eventually I did like five, five years in, I got to play. There's a video of that on my YouTube, but it was just like, ⁓ anything. A monkey can do, I can do better was kind of how, ⁓ that came about. I was like, ⁓ we can just call it PCI can do better. And yeah, it started out as YouTube and then now, you know, after doing some presentations and stuff, it kind of changed, like also like kind of represent like BC as a field can do better. and here are the ways like I've been. doing it and using it, here's, you know, what it's actually like, and here's what, you know, I would hope it would be like in the future. And, ⁓ yeah, that's kind of how it started. speaker-0: Yeah, that's awesome. And if we're talking about the future, would you like to see improved in the BCI technology? What would be an upgrade to what you're currently having that would take this to the next level? speaker-1: For like what I have and, ⁓ I think still the majority of users have would be, making it wireless. Like, like I still have to have some cables connected and, and that kind of, that has limited how much I use it like day to day because I still have to like hook up to some stuff, but like Neuralink is wireless. So. That's already a big step that has been made in the 10 years since, since I started. So I think there's stuff just like connects on like Bluetooth. So basically if they're there somewhere and they want to control something like they can just connect to it and do it. ⁓ yeah. So, so wireless was always the biggest, I think my biggest hurdle to get. ⁓ from where we are to more widespread, just use and acceptance of, of the technology. ⁓ because, know, basically anytime anything gets easier to use, the more people will want to use it. And so there's that. then, Like I said before, decoder training is, is one of those things that it doesn't take a long time to do like five or 10 minutes, depending on what you're trying to do. But the fact that you have to do it every time or, you know, I might use it for, for an afternoon or a couple hours, then it might, you know, start, start to not work as well. ⁓ so anything. They would cut down on, on that sort of stuff would be, you know, the next really big, ⁓ push to getting it ready for like more widespread ⁓ use. And then just, Like anything that makes it easier and, more affordable. Cause that's for sure going to be a hurdle is, know, there's probably going to be, ⁓ this, this weird, ⁓ phase where it's like, ⁓ available to a lot more people, but insurance will probably be like, ⁓ you don't need that. And it's like, Yeah, don't know the actual numbers, but it's probably like, you know, like a million dollars to, to like, get the actually have the hardware to even put in your brain. ⁓ yeah, because it's only getting made like just a few companies and they're only putting out, you know, they don't have this massive operation where they're just pumping them out and they're like super cheap. But then you have to have like a surgeon that's like able to do that and train this. And so, so there's all these steps, ⁓ like logistical steps before, you know, widespread, ⁓ even use for just people with actual, ⁓ disabilities or motor impairments or, or they get used for like hearing and vision. And like I said, ⁓ speaking. there's all these logistical steps that, ⁓ they have to get bridged at some point, but yeah, think wireless send and just less training or like the really big ones that, that I would like to see and that I'm sure I will see, ⁓ in the future, even if I'm Like not in the study anymore. There's there is going to come a time probably in a year, two or maybe five. Like, don't know if five's probably pushing it, but there is going to come a time where mine just aren't working, uh, or working well enough to keep, keep, uh, in. And I'm hoping at that time, like it's like a I would say a phone upgrade. Like I've had my phone like for 10 years, so now I'm due for a free upgrade. And, uh, yeah. So my hope would really be that when mine stopped working and I've always said like, I'll use them till, till they don't work anymore, even though it would have been cool to just. And like, okay, today I want a new pair because I want it to work better again. Uh, like my phone's being kind of slow and it's just, I want. the new iPhone, but yeah, so maybe that'll be the path I'm on. Maybe not, and maybe I might have to wait until it is just something insurance will cover, but yeah, that's the more immediate future that I would like to see. speaker-0: Yeah, now I can imagine that those would be a huge improvements indeed. and probably, yeah, we will see the field is moving pretty fast. ⁓ I believe is there anything you would like to say or emphasize, ⁓ before we, wrap it up. speaker-1: ⁓ I don't know if like, I still think like the biggest misconception that, ⁓ people just have is like, just assuming that it's a lot farther along than, than it is, or like that. You know, it's so point where like the, users are like having this like massive benefit or something like that. Like it really is, you know, I'm 11 years in and the field is still like cutting edge, like stuff that's never been done. You know, now, now it's just like, it's not one person. Like I said, everything snowballs. So I think every year that. I've been implanted probably the next year had more people implanted. ⁓ and then, now it's like, you know, there was just like a couple of people that even had BlackRock implants and you know, they basically started, ⁓ before everyone else. And now they're like at 50, 50 implant patients or might even probably be a few more than that now. But so the people that are using it are, you know, people that saw it and, and yes, there might be like some impact in their lives, but we all do it for like a better future and to kind of push things forward. ⁓ you know, like, I think most people would just hope that the generations after them, ⁓ have better, easier lives. And that's, that's kind of what we all, we all think, but we, you know, put our brains on the line for, for that. ⁓ yeah. So I think it's just super cool. ⁓ Yeah, I dunno. speaker-0: Yeah, no, it is super cool. ⁓ and where can people go if they want to keep up to date with your journey? ⁓ where can they, follow you? speaker-1: BCI can do better basically everywhere. YouTube, X, Instagram, ⁓ my website's bcicandobetter.com. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: Awesome. Well, Nathan, you really are an inspiration. I think it's incredible what you're doing. ⁓ you're very, very brave for being one of the first people to, yeah, be willing to push this technology forward. So I really, ⁓ appreciate you for obviously taking the time to have this conversation with me today. It's been incredible. ⁓ but also thank you for, ⁓ yeah, pushing science forward. speaker-1: Yeah, no problem. Like I always think it's just cool to talk to talk to people, especially when it's like around the world. And like I said, I got to go to Japan. I got to go to France. Those are the farthest I've been, but you know, ⁓ Yeah, I would go, go anywhere basically. And yeah, as long as it's like feasible to get there. think it's just cool talking to, to people. It's one of those things that I definitely in the beginning for just any time prior to actually starting speaking in public, ⁓ public speaking was not something I was like into. gave me a lot of anxiety and. ⁓ it's one of those things that once I started doing it and then like afterwards, talking to researchers or students that are like, ⁓ like I want to go into this field. And a lot of it's because, you know, of, of the things you've talked about or, you know, now it's like, ⁓ I'm, I've read all the papers about you. I'm like, that's kind of cool, but You know, it's one those things that like all those papers just have like a, like a code number or something. Cause they can't publish your name, but it's cool to just meet someone that's like, you know, follow my journey, but on like a more like really technical, like, ⁓ that side, like, I don't even read the papers cause they're like, I'm not a researcher. I'm not a real scientist. It's like a lot of like. You know, the tasks might've been fun or like more engaging, but reading the papers is not. And, ⁓ yeah, so just hearing that people find value in, ⁓ not only what I've done, but then just actually hearing from someone that has used the technology. ⁓ that's always really cool. So. speaker-0: Well, it's awesome. I think this was incredibly inspiring and yeah, you're awesome, Nathan. I really appreciate you.