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Ecosistema del Peronismo - Invitado: Osvaldo Nemirovci · Ecosistemas

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Hello from ecosystems. We send a fraternal greeting to all radio environment staff,
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the National Federation of Health Workers and its Secretary, Carlos Adamo, for allowing
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them to be part of this great family that is radio ecosystem environment under the
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prism of polyhedron. How today' s world works, increasingly complex, more
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uncertain, changing, seemingly chaotic, a world of all against all or all
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for all. Not one thing or the other. The world operates in a
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delicate balance of interacting ecosystems. I propose that you think together about how these
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ecosystems work. A small pocket manual, perhaps just a bunch of thoughts and
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reflections that allow us to accommodate, order, orient, understand how we work
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in these hyper- informed and communicated societies, where it is hard for us
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to discover their senses and motives every day. I invite you to listen and
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discover together these ecosystems in which we are often inserted without wanting to be part
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of them and which, however, are part of our daily struggles and disappointments
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and under the prism of polyhedron, because every ecosystem is composed of different faces
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or sides, with its vertices and particularities. Unity in diversity, where the
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whole is superior to the parties, the agreement superior to the conflict, reality
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is imposed on the idea and time space. This will allow us to build
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a sustainable world in a Pollen environment of humanity, in harmony with the unique
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protective nature of our existence and the generations to come welcome. There are ecosystems
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under the prism of polyhedrons. If twenty years are not nothing and feverish,
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the gaze wanders the shadow seeks you and names you, how will fifty Not
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one think like that. Fifty years are because they turn fifty in the general
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and tried a Peronless Peronism, even at the time that Peron was exiled,
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to rethink Peronism. But what is today not an ideology, a doctrine,
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a thought, a religion, a passion, a feeling, so much to
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be able to talk about Peronism and in this ecosystem we want to dedicate ourselves
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to these fifty years without peron and this way of reinventing that Peronism has an
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unprecedented fact unique in the world. And in order to get into this dance
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we' re going to dance with someone who knows a lot about this and
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who is a very good friend, who has infinite patience with us and who
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is very lucid. We always follow him in everything he writes in Infobae,
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on page 12, in online politics, in parliamentarians. Well, he was
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a national deputy for some time and today he is a great political referent of
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Rio Negro, osval don emiros and welcome ecosystems Hello. Luis Well, thank
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you so much for your kind introduction. How do you think Peronism, considering
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that you are that link, that came to understand it, to know the
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military in life and that now it has to generate this legacy fifty years after
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its absence. You described it in your beginning, giving the question you yourself
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about what Peronism is, with a complexity that was expressed in that same presentation,
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a complexity that I would add to everything you said. Ideology, politics,
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religion, feeling, a word he looks at. You' re the
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other day watching a story they did to Elisa Carrio. He said it.
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She said Peronism is a culture. It is Peronism won in Argentina because it
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is a culture. And the truth is that I took it and would add
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it, because, being complex, all the variables with which we can describe,
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define and talk about journalism are valid, because, in short, we
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are in search of what it can be. I believe that the general perón,
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in his time, endowed with an ideology, turned it into a political
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action with a clairvoyance that ideologies do not govern but that what manages and administers
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a country in politics, ideology serves to place itself in a certain intellectual pantheon
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in which to discuss with others whether ideology is a product of consciousness itself or
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for itself, or is a product of the relationship of human beings with the
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means of production or is a product of a certain geographical, regional, historical
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scenario. But even though he had all that, he was standing in a
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position in himself and for himself, in a geographical location at a certain historical
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moment. He didn' t want to rule with that. He ruled with
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politics. Then ideology turned it into politics. The police in management had a
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doctrine, so it was also conformed to the heat of events that occurred during
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the forty- six to fifty- five year of its first and a half
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government was formed a doctrine. That doctrine pierces time until today, how it
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arrives and arrives worse evolved, but it was not evolutionist. He did not
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believe in the firmness of an unshakable doctrine. I think at some point I
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don' t know if I talked to you or wrote it, but as
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a good teacher I was because everyone remembers it, even us. That way,
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the Peronists did, we put emphasis on giving him an almost unique category
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like that of military general and peron was much more than that, but he
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wasn' t a sage and basically he was a philosopher and basically he was
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an intellectual. He was a man I knew from anthropology, geography, linguistics.
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Of course, it' s a military strategy tactic. But he was
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a man who philosophy brought her. I say you' ve read a lot
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of heraclitus. Not that no one bathes twice in the same river, because
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it is the beginning of the idea of evolution. And but he always said
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that the only hard thing and so on are the general basic principles that there
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are synthesized in the ideological triptych of Peronism, social justice, economic independence,
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political sovereignty. But then everything else has to be adapted. What does not
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adapt to the times disappears then Today, as we are many for fifty years,
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to take the origin of your question, as we are many for fifty
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years, who want to interpret, but it is in doubt how the doctrine
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is updated. Some say it needs to be updated, many others say it
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needs to be changed. Others say it' s more or less good.
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That is Peronism and that is why it is a culture because it invades spaces
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outside politics, invades the soul in case it exists and if it does not
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exist, at least those famous, eight grams that lose the weight of the
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human being when it dies. There is an Argentine soul and there is a
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Peronist soul, and there is no radical soul, neither a liberal soul nor
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a communist soul. It invades the family, invades the soul, invades feelings,
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invades art. Sometimes my wife once told me look at enough peronometers and
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discuss what Peronism is. Peronism, is the curate pelli, symphony or the
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feeling of elus fabio, is peronism and good point. That' s how
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ordered I throw you to start this talk. No doubt and I' m
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trying to Ilvanate some things I' ve also been seeing. I am not
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surprised by the intellectual career of voice to refer to that intellectual peron of the
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previous years, a guy who began to write plays to entertain the troops and
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then began to play other thoughts, such as those of San Martín, to
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cross those before and then use this certain theoretical concepts that were converting him as
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a teacher, as a kind of teacher within the same structures of the army.
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That is not to say, there is a whole way of it to
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reach that idea of social consciousness that arises from the political construction of the army
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' s leadership. Well, that' s where we have to incorporate into
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this that I' ve thrown away what I' ve talked about before.
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Some historical data have to be incorporated, because there is no possibility of interpreting
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anything without context. Not you should know in the area of communication the famous
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Russian philologist bai Chin, who said that context is the key to every interpretation.
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I say there are no messages without context. Every message is contextual.
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So Perón' s message was necessarily contextual, because Perón says, not what
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he does as an integral practice of his intellectual capacity, as well as flogging
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plays, the incorporation at his head of management variables, doctrinal variables that later
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shaped justicialism and that are very diverse. Because Perón incorporates and it must be
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said that we are ashamed of the Charter, Mussolinie' s famous Letter of
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Work, which is a kind of right of work that took place in the
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Italian government of fascism, but incorporates concepts of the Russian Revolution. But I
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hadn' t read Trosk Perón had a learning from the important facts of history.
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And what if these two facts that I am mentioning are the most important
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of historical time from one thousand and sixteen seventeen onwards the Russian Revolution and the
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fascist revolution so much similar to each other. Another day we are going to
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talk about that subject then, but it does not incorporate for him nuances in
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the one entity the Letter of labor, probably to see era of fascism.
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She was bad. All those who speak the Charter and labor. Well,
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she wasn' t bad. The truth is that it put workers with a
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corporate sense, but put them at a level of state protection that had not
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had concepts of the Russian Revolution. Well, the concept of class, but
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it had it very incorporated, but it was the few that spoke of the
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workers as class this one that had to defend their rights. Well, that
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' s all giving him a contextual framework. This is in the 1940s.
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Obviously, it can' t be the same in the' 60s. You
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mentioned Peronless Peronism occurs in the sixties. It is not wrong from the point
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of view of those who drive it. Basically. Augusto Timothy Bandor, a
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metallurgical leader, one of the most important union leaders that Argentina had than when
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the ninety- nine. He eats ninety- nine percent of the Peronists believed
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that Perón would not return him, of course he also said well, if
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I didn' t return I managed the speech and the Peronist apparatus, because
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the speech was the bandor speech and the apparatus of Bandon' s apparatus a
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semi legalized Peronism with another name People' s Union, but that he had
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deputies, who had candidates for the governor. He' s already saying I
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' m handling this. We are going to do a Peronism without pero or
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the famous phrase to save Peruana. You have to be against it. But
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well, of course, he was wrong in time, Perón anatomized him and
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ended up earning him that polished one. But I say all these variables and
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variable that of forty to forty, that of sixty, that of seventy,
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with that wonderful youth is there? Stay What do you want there? Stay
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there? That I was self- critically part of it, you must wish
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because you said that peron is culture. And see if we think that Peronism
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is culture. You can' t be absent from one of Capuzoto' s
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characters, my dear bomb vita Rodríguez, Perón' s blues. I am
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very sad with this liberal economy, which was worth more to the bourgeoisie.
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When I compare what capitalism offers, I think better, but better, but
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better? But when you compared what capitalism offers, better, better, better,
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better, better, better? But when I compare what capitalism offers,
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I think better, but better, but better? But when they compared what
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capitalism offers, better, better, better, better, better, better?
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But, but, it comes in this journey of Peronism, the ecosystems.
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We are with Osvaldo nemiros and, after listening to him, Capuzoto Peter with
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his occurrences, reflecting that controversial and complex Peronism of the seventies, to which
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our guest was about to refer. Or not, because I include it in
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the development of a historical devenier, saying that everything is contextual. So,
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peron in the forties is what it is based on their European learning, both
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in Italy and the learning I mentioned about the Russian Revolution, which is not
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a minor detail. His gaze is not always right, but of the sensitivity
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to the Spanish civil war, not always right, because he always spoke of
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the million dead, which is a fact that arises from a book written by
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José María Genonela, a Catalan Francoist writer. There were never a million dead.
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I smoked about four hundred and seventy thousand dead in the previous and later
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years. But it doesn' t matter, I say no to proposigo.
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Nor can we deny that the political asylum he had was precisely in Spain.
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In Spain by Franco Yes, whom he never saw in those years. He
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never saw it the day he was coming. For Argentina. He was never
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received for turning Franco and, perhaps, he had no interest in seeing him
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either. But we also need to analyze what it meant to be in Spain,
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for example, and not in Cuba, as John Willian O once proposed.
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What it meant Well, it seems to me that in that too,
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Perón had a certain look and being in Europe made another sense. It allowed
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him to look closely at the process of the General of Golf in France,
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the model of communist autonomy of Chauchescu and Tito in Romania Yugoslavia. It allowed
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him to handle other variables. Then it' s not the same. Forty
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smo the sixty, not in the same way the seventy, where appears what
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some still today inherit, the phrase of wonderful youth, when in reality there
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was a phenomenon of a certain generational displacement and where Perón also modifies part of
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the language without modifying the doctrine. And we, who integrated the Peronist youth,
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who integrated that wonderful youth, who believed that the revolution was just around
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the corner and that touching the sky with our hands was a matter of minutes.
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We thought we also had to throw doctrine aside and incorporate other ideas.
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There were bosses, chieftains of that wonderful youth who one day came and said
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we have incorporated Marxism Leninism as a method of analysis. Well, a delusion
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and an absolutely total madness, and some of us thought not that we should
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actually discuss on the basis of the doctrinal update of justicialism. And it'
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s not about the 1980s or the 1990s either. In the 1990s there is
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a Peronism that is aurn for the side of liberalism, with the Presidency of
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Menem, which is not Menem, not Menem, with the whole organized workers
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movement, with the entire Justicialist Party reappearing, as in the 1960s, with
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Bandor, who directs and hegemonizes, the discourse and the apparatus. This question
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is repeated again in the 2, 000 with Nestor Kishner, on the other
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hand, in a process of anti- liberalism, of presence of a state
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much better than that which is now and which there was in recent years with
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a successful government, the last successful Peronist government two thousand three, two thousand
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seven with Nestor Kinner. Nor is it worth raising the variables that made all
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the economic data, from the superhabits to the fixed accounts that the foreign trade
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did not have inflation respect to human rights all the Peronism united behind the leadership
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of Nestor Kinner. This was also to handle the speech and the apparatus.
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There was this bandonism process, menemism knarism. It is the three three ismos,
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one in Perón' s life, two with Perón dead, that gave
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him a different meaning to what peonism was and were in some way, modifying
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his original role. And all that was shaping an idea of Peronism. Well,
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today comes to another. As you started, Louis, fifty years old.
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We also have to give a context to this era. Today what is
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peron is to return to Peron in terms of what happened in the forty-
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fifth year. It' s impossible. The social subject was changed. The
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happy worker is no longer happy. Forty that the house is bought with a
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credit from the Foundation avoids from the EVA Foundation. Perón who work the big
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factories where every day he shares his class character with thousands of working brothers.
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There is no more or no majority of them. Today the thirty- first
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peak, forty percent of the workers are those who work in a formal way.
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Blank. Of that 40th peak, a small percentage is affiliated to the
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unions, that is, they changed the social subject, changed social conditions to
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large productive factories. Producer media are no longer changing the world. The world
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today, not even globalization is a present value of the world. Today there
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is a dispute in the world between globalists such as Tramp as the anti-
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Atlanticists, who are not anti- globalists, but who are against the Treaties,
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such as this Jang glum Melenchon, the recent, this winner of the
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French Uni, which is composed of the tam yes and there are those who
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again take as a national value, the issue of sovereignty, territories, borders
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and national issues, such as Georgia Meloni, for example. So today there
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is a world where Peronism has to be relocated from a different value, from
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a value of rebellion, from a value of reform, I don' t
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even say revolutionary, from a value of reform, to modify situations to re
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- view from the point of view of its doctrine, those three flags.
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Today we must not change the discourse in Argentina to fight for social justice.
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Today there is no social justice. There' s a government today. We
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must also put this context that exists today in front of Peronism. Or it
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is the other way around that there is a very weakened Peronism in the face
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of this government. That Peronism has to be strengthened to make an axis of
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opposition with a certain electoral chance, in order to take steps towards the consolidation
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of a new majority that defines from a parliamentary majority, there is a majority
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of governors, the course of Argentina and today that Peronism is weak. Luis
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is disoriented. I think, as at other times it has been and perhaps
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as it is also said, when they fight each other, they multiply and
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so many other questions that give the feeling, never looks. I don'
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t like that. Yeah, that' s why, by brother cats is
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for cats, cats that fight and multiply. The penonists fight and divide,
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we are less and less. By the way. I' m going to
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disagree a little with your football loves, because at this moment twenty- five
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gold stars are going to remember Peronism with the Twists. Rat cantana dora from
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the court of mouth to the moon sea youth, borando al farto meno early
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better straw the brother, who will not throw, is already filled the square.
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You can' t even have a piler. I can put everything late
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I say late, all the bike thugs and the radicals on foot. I
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spoke with a smolto medi apologizeros paper, the operavita the nanci of carvan Ruiz
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and in this way carva the wis. My general doesn' t leave,
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my general didn' t leave wey sona are a March comes the cordona alone,
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posts to the cordels and when I was going to power pol that great
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Argentine who knew how to conquer the bed of the town, tomba going to
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the cafeta, dawn of house, work and work, the home rome Silbero
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Massolini Simeon Rati Mendes Bronca, loquita pianet alfo without brizuelaly palvo, without brizuela,
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the render twenty- five stars of gold for baleros salt balcony in the
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street alone and I didn' t win veramenos won ralo vi nebron the twists
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and twenty- five stars of gold. It is also to demystify what Don
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Antonio Cafiero wrote in some of his memoirs, saying that the general was a
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mouth fan and not a racer, as they used to simply say that the
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Cylinder of Mellanera has the name of Perón because it opened in a thousand nine
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hundred and fifty and it was one of the ministers of Perón who promoted the
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construction of the cylinder. So, well, let' s put things right,
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beyond what I know my interviewee is a fanatical West Railway fan, not
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and I' ll tell you if I' ll tell you, okay.
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Ramón Cereijo, who was the Minister of Finance of Perón, was the one
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who collaborated with the construction of Villaneda Cylinder, so he said. But there
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are also versions that were of Chacaritas Aha, but probably out of mouth and
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then in Ferro. We had what is said to be a mayor of the
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club for many years, years, forty- fifty or the entire government of
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Perón. I think he' s the father of a very famous journalist.
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Well, very vilified on the air, the son like that, very well
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put on the air, Well, the father who was Peronist, was us
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in Ferro' s magazine, who' s at the club. There,
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in the club museum, it appears pero many times, but well, we
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have two gold stars just, not twenty- five or s c chas more
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than two. But the truth is, we' re a team, a
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small club, from a neighborhood in the capital. We don' t have
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great economic possibilities to be better at this peron playing game. That' s
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where it seems more like a religion. No, like sometimes religions become gods
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to the extent of those who have to profess them. You think that the
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same thing happens with the chronicle of whether you put a peron, to the
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measure of those who want to process it, or want to promote it or
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want to use it to go through a process, a process yes, yes,
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raisins, I do not share it. Let' s say, one
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of the foundations of religion is faith. Faith in general is the opposite of
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science and faith one believes dogmatically, believes in dogmatic truths according to which religion
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raises them from sinless conceptions of the Virgin Mary to walking in the waters.
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Well, a lot of things they do to faith. One has to believe
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that it is. The indivisibility of the religious subject is one and stress,
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father, son and holy spirit. There' s one where all three are.
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Well, that' s all dogmatic. I, the reneging logmatism of
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dogmatism in any political variable has done the world very badly. Communist dogmatism in
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fact very bad to the world. Capitalist dogmatism has done the world very badly
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in general. I take paths that go more towards the scientific understanding of politics
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or assigning to it some values of the credibility of science, not from the
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political sciences, the social sciences in general, I believe in the causality of
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the social sciences than to a certain social condition, always similar situations occur,
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similar to the exact sciences or hard sciences. Without getting that far. Now
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there are many companions who are dogmatic, who are dogmatic all good. I
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never shared it. I didn' t share to avoid too that I didn
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' t live. But avoid the more stampite is less revolutionary image, the
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more we put her to pray to her with flowers and other less concept of
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what she did in her life as a revolutionary Peronist from Argentina, which was
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that she transformed much of society. And but it' s the same thing,
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not the peron with golden backlights. No. Not to me it'
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s not going now. Yes, there are those who say that good is
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like a religion. Others said as the Gran Lorenzo Miguel, the famous metallurgical
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leader of Villa Lugano. Peronism is like eating noodles on Sundays. Well,
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I accept everything. I believe in other things. I believe that Peronism is
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more than religion, rather than eating noodles. Now it includes it, too.
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Peronism is also eating Sunday' s noodle. It is also a part
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of religiosity. I am against it from the point of view of my political
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gaze. I do not believe in religiosity that it is installed in sectors of
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Peronism in the latter, I would say, since Nestor Kirner died in two
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thousand ten, in the last fourteen years, twelve years has been installed a
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certain religiosity, very pernicious. I do not believe in religiosity or the cult
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of personality, which is perverse for the development of political movements has happened all
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over the world. There is nothing worse than the cult of personality. You
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' re right why you' re the boss. Things are discussed. Nestor
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Kisner, you always said I want militants to come and tell me, no,
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tell me what they think. I don' t want troops lined up
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mechanically. So that religiosity part of what I think Peronism should be. But
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yes, in the things that we must correct today perhaps that idea of the
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pointer or of who I pray will lower my sheets for the ceiling. Let
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' s say we hope that the gift and that implies a passivity before the
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powerful one who will come to give you an alms, a caress And yes,
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there is not much difference for the humblest, the violated waits for a
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plate, there is no difference between God. That' s where he asks
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for something, which he asks better in life, and when the pointer comes
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and improves his life because he brings a plate, there' s no difference.
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Also the narco makes it the unclear narco, and now he is brought
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the narco, then the nar nor the state of God. Not the narco
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is God, not the pointer is God. But it' s all a
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subject that has to do with us. A certain diligence generates a model of
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education in politics with peers, not education from formality, learning and so on.
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Any variable. They are all useful, not this reading, writing,
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encyclopedism, technical, everything goes, but I am not talking about that.
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I' m talking about education from politics is that every militant, every member
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of the Justice Party, knows what he fights for, who he fights for,
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how he fights. This seems basic to me, because it will only
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be better to defend their rights. People move with emotionalities, Luis and their
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interests. I don' t think you' re wrong about that. He
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didn' t make a mistake by voting for my bad law that weighs us.
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He wasn' t wrong. Although there is also a combination of factors,
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like in the second round variables that are not the same, but good
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for something come together and pull out fifty- six percent. One can say
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good. There is an original thirty, which is that of the legislative election,
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the first round to give thirty percent. Then it is added that to
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the libertarianism of milex is added the antiperonism of pro It can be either way.
34:59
Jun the fifty- six people were not wrong. There are Peronist votes
35:02
there. Nobody gets fifty- six percent in Argentina if it doesn' t
35:07
include Peronist votes. And if there are Peronist votes, it' s because
35:10
formal Peronism lost them. Then we need to see why we got lost.
35:14
Responsibility of those who lose them. Look at self- criticism, which is
35:21
a concept that comes from religion. No And then they went through a lot
35:25
of Stalinism in Russia, where in my Soviet, where the old Bolshevik leadership
35:30
was forced to kill her was half a fool. The leaders, not but
35:34
vieb walkinf bujar and that to be and they passed them the brush to all
35:38
the rigged to all the three of them did not self- edigate. Now
35:42
there were thousands who knew they were going to be killed. Self- criticism
35:45
to me was wrong and I' m asking why you' re falsely self
35:50
- critical if they' re going to kill you, but I say the
35:52
autotic is of Christian religious origin. Then it went through the maximum, but
35:54
the proonimo has to incorporate it. Yesterday. I watched Yesterday, I watched
36:02
when Gerardo Zamora, the governor of Santiago la Estero, signed the May Pact
36:08
and recalled how I, on my own, being an official of the national
36:15
government in charge of digital television, went to Santiago del Estero to campaign for
36:21
the Justicialist Party opposed to Zamora, and I had to do so in the
36:27
semi- hidden and hidden, because the entire national government supported Zamora even the
36:34
woman. They put her in the presidential association for twelve years, made us
36:40
surrender to Zamora. Then who did it. He was wrong because the guy
36:45
I saw signing the May Pact with two hands. And that was wrong.
36:52
He didn' t speak straight and because they' re an attitude. It
36:55
wasn' t a mistake to put here at the time. This error is
37:00
a moral ethical error and an infamy of it. Not now whose he put
37:05
it. Now about Zamora. Someone has to take over, someone has to
37:08
take over electoral defeats. Then let' s do a self- criticism Look.
37:15
The only leader who speaks of self- criticism today is a modest governor
37:21
of the interior named Ricardo Pintela, whom I do not know, because I
37:23
saw him once I brought some digital television antennas and he was mayor and I
37:29
think he did not greet me from afar, but I hear him. I
37:32
listen with attention because it has a very plain, very simple language and that
37:36
' s all it says. We have to do a self- criticism to
37:39
be together. Okay. That' s that story we all talked about,
37:43
but it' s the only one. The rest continues with one with a
37:47
gallantry in their own conviction that it is all right and they continue to fight
37:53
at the very smallest limits. I speak from the point of view without you
38:00
geographical icon of the urban one, reducing Peronism as a national movement according to
38:07
the mere interests of the urban one. I say and end up using the
38:12
first word out of my usual vocabulary. I don' t like ex-
38:16
abruptors if they' re so excited about this, make a district party in
38:22
the third electoral section and stop screwing with Peronists all over the country. That
38:24
' s what I wanted to talk about. But what I wanted to talk
38:27
about. But we are going to do it in the last block, because
38:32
there is precisely a text by Julio Burman, in the last of mon diplomatic
38:38
about the extent of Peronism that we say and I wanted to consult you.
38:43
But speaking of interpreters, from Perón you named someone I think is the greatest
38:46
interpreter we have. His name is Leonardo Fabio. Singing I go the ways,
39:07
why my destiny is to sing and sing. I' m a friend
39:12
of the friend and I don' t give peace to the enemies. I
39:15
own my destiny of all my dreams and my freedom. I don' t
39:21
know about the wind, and if a child cries, I start to cry.
39:24
I feel like a brother of asbestos and without a child, sora,
39:29
I start to cry and I fell in love with the silence and in it
39:37
long periods of time. I sound like you' re listening, lying,
39:42
and sometimes telling them. That' s why it' s gonna be a
39:46
lot of pixcens that I' m crazy and I' m not angry because
39:52
that' s true crazy about love for people, love for sight and freedom,
39:57
not all love, love for life and freedom. I have the love
40:06
of whom I love more than life. I can do it. To ask
40:09
I love the love of children and been a print. I feel like dying
40:15
I love life and singing. I like to yell it out, because it
40:19
' s my truth. I' m a soldier of my people and I
40:22
' m proud of my general, I' m lacking my authority, I
40:29
' m proud of my general. Am I to ben the people, already
40:31
proud of my general? Am I already from my village and proud of my
40:46
general? I' m missing my father' s proud yay about me was
40:53
something I' m a soldier of my people either I' m proud or
40:57
my face. The last blocks with Osvaldo Nemirossi in this ecosystem of Peronism,
41:15
think to Perón, fifty years after his disappearance and precisely one of the interpretations
41:23
that I give to Peronism very entangled, of course, Osvaldo, very much
41:29
of a person who sees some consequences of what happened. And I, for
41:38
myself, Peronism in the house of the old, Peronism is the house of
41:43
my old, of my parents. Not that I think you go out into
41:49
the world and it' s all right and even you deny them, you
41:54
leave them for another moment you lose sight of them, but when the thing
42:00
comes fucked up, when it comes across your hand. One where he goes
42:05
back and back to the old man' s house. And I think Peronism
42:07
is that good. It' s a description that does what I used to
42:12
fill up like the soul. And one, how do you get back to
42:15
the old man' s house? According to a tango poet, he'
42:17
s back defeated, I' m back in my old man' s house.
42:21
Just like everything makes a memory. You come back, you go off
42:25
bizarre, proud, I' m going to eat the world and you come
42:29
back defeated to the old house. We must return to Peronism as such.
42:32
I get this from what you said. That' s a good description.
42:36
It is a description because Peronism is also sensitivity. That from now on I
42:42
told you that Julio Burman talks about the capabilities of Peronism, that it is
42:46
provincialized, let' s say, and that today it does not give candidates
42:50
for President. Let us say that it is strengthened in the districts, but
42:57
today it is not possible to become one in a national movement and with a
43:02
national structure. And let it be in this way a little that you manifested
43:07
before listening to Leonardo Fabio Bueno, that of himself also in the fortress in
43:15
some places, because I am used to that Peronism has between eighteen and horita
43:22
and governors. Today we have seven and here are two things. It seems
43:29
to me in this interpretation made by Julio Buzman, that apart from interpretations there
43:32
is no objective reality. Peronism has been provincialized, it is like a federation
43:37
of Peronist spaces in each province and it does what can be responsible. I
43:43
think there are two. An almost logical one. Every governor is defending your
43:45
territory, because it' s his life. That' s what he has,
43:52
he' s not interested in the national project. But then a much
43:55
more serious responsibility, which is that of the Bunaherense urban where I put diligence,
44:01
intendants, governors, a governor because it is the province of Buenos Aires
44:07
and this and the previous and the previous let' s say that it is
44:14
the mother of the battles. So, if you win there because of the
44:17
demand of the reformed Constitution of nine hundred and ninety- four, where the
44:22
electoral college was removed and you win a simple priority of suffrage, then the
44:27
one who wins proviche Bones has forty percent of the population. There, taking
44:30
forty percent votes in the province of Buenos Aires, you already split with sixteen
44:34
percent national you into the mother of all battles. It is not right from
44:39
the point of view of pragmatism. It may be, but at the same
44:44
time you weaken all the provinces, because the effort is put on that mother
44:49
of battles. Well, I don' t remember. Listen to me,
44:52
Osvaldo. There are these experiments that nation is governing a certain party and in
44:58
the province of Buenos Aires we do not have good results. Let' s
45:01
say we know. That' s what happened to electoral legality, the electoral
45:06
health alliance. Yes, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
45:08
no, The issue, in my opinion, Luis, is this one that
45:14
shrinks the national movement as such. It cost a lot, because, but
45:17
although he was a traveler and a connoisseur of the country, it has its
45:24
axis of social construction in Buenos Aires and especially in the poorest areas of it
45:29
with urban than it was at that time, with good urban herense berizo dinner
45:32
la Plata, this vellaneda where the big factories were. Now, later,
45:37
with great effort during his government and then during exile, he spoke to the
45:42
Argentines of Santiago, El Estero, Tucumán, Córdoba, La Rioja del Sur,
45:45
which was not yet a province in black eugenic Chubut, and was constituting
45:50
this national movement that gives characteristic to Peronism. We are not a district party
45:58
of the third electoral section, the Matanza or quilmes or whatever was outside the
46:01
province of Buenos Aires. And there' s a leadership that weighs us down
46:07
with their interns that if it' s maximum against Kislov that if it'
46:13
s going to be mass against maximum and Kizilov, that if you ferrare are
46:17
all good people, they' re all important leaders, but we' re
46:20
overwhelmed by Peronism. He has three senators from Buenos Aires Province, he has
46:22
three senators from Rioja and Rio Negro. And the defense of those senators to
46:28
go to the Senate to play a role is as important in one province as
46:31
in another. There are more Members, yes, there are more Members.
46:35
Now we do have a better location, a better installation across the country.
46:40
This is going to have an impact on the Province of Buenos Aires, which
46:45
is pulling up until now, because now it says they are going to change
46:50
the elections in the Province of Buenos Aires. Enger as they always go together
46:52
with the presidential candidate the president, now they want to change them, but
46:59
that people, when they are going to vote in the Province of Buenos Aires,
47:01
which are not separated from those of Governor of President, watch the first
47:07
name that sees President or President, So what you have to have is a
47:10
national movement that enthuses the Bonaherenses. Then the governor accompanies. So I think
47:15
that' s the big damage. Quesher is causing Peronism, the loss of
47:19
the idea of national movement and, if you don' t want to move,
47:22
because it' s some old corporate model. The party I don'
47:29
t make much of a distinction. I am not one of those who say
47:30
ah no I the party no, because the party of the electoral tool.
47:34
Well, the Peronists are affiliated with the party and the hair is the largest
47:38
Peronist accommodation I know of that justiciable party. There is no Peronist mastivity outside
47:44
the Justice Party. All the parties that wanted to make an autonomous experience of
47:50
their own with a formal structure other than them all failed and the leaders who
47:55
left at some moment of their own cafiero. In eighty- four, with
48:01
the renewal against the Minio Iglesia, he returned and was president of the Nestor
48:05
Kirner party. Two thousand five, with the candidacy of Cristiana in Buenos Aires,
48:08
returned and was president of the party that left to arm other parties.
48:14
I don' t know any victorious stories. Then I don' t make
48:20
much of a distinction. Well, the party' s justicialist, it'
48:22
s this national party. We have to strengthen that and it seems to me
48:28
that this more interpret the new social subjects, which are not the workers mostly
48:36
the urban workers, semi- urban with Peronist heir, the boy who learned
48:40
from his father, who earned the salary came and bought him a bicycle,
48:45
the guy who came to work and the delegate, even if he was a
48:49
bureaucrat, he talked about Peronism every day. There' s no such thing
48:52
today. Today there are the self- employed, the informal workers, the
48:58
people who voted for Miley the most hard workers the real There is a poll
49:04
that will be hete to us, a faith that will be true that forty
49:07
- eight percent of public employees voted for my law. But I' m
49:10
telling you a lot of vostronomy workers. There are a lot of construction workers
49:14
who are out of work today. This one so I think Peronism has to
49:17
recompose a different social subject that also goes through the violated one. I say
49:23
violated and not vulnerable, because to be vulnerable, because it is someone or
49:28
covered another as it is violated. Don' t just be these people who
49:32
lived off the plans. Those people are worse than the worker. The worker,
49:36
the formal worker, not just as Marx said, and that' s
49:42
why he was wrong. He has to make revolution, because all he has
49:45
to lose is his chains. He also loses his bonus family salary, vacations
49:51
paid. This has already been lost to an informal worker, but at least
49:55
it has a soil, which is 70 percent of the formal worker. Now
50:00
the planter does not have aguinal doña or holidays pay the family wage or seventy
50:06
percent of the land. That one does starve. This social subject is the
50:12
most punished in Argentina and Peronism left him in life. He didn' t
50:16
pay attention to her, except this thing of taking her as we started a
50:22
while ago talking about upstairs, about playing God. I' ll give you
50:24
the plan, I' ll give you the plate. And that' s
50:27
a mistake. Now I say a social justice or as a flag with thirty
50:31
percent continuous and constant poverty. I feel like a hypocris is hypocrisy. Yes,
50:37
it must also be seen whether that thirty percent did not constitute a hard,
50:44
unmovable core. Not her. I am very concerned about this, as
50:47
there are many countries, like Chile, as I am in Brazil, that
50:51
can change governments and be this better for the remaining seventy percent. But that
50:57
thirty percent doesn' t change what it was. I don' t have
51:01
any studies on that. I don' t have any tests, but I
51:05
think we' re close to that. A poverty that goes between thirty and
51:07
fifty when it rules. The Peronism of the fifty drops to the thirty-
51:14
thirty peak truth never drops to the thirty when they rule. Liberals climb up
51:17
this then and that would be dramatic, but that thirty percent are as Argentine
51:23
as we are and we have to give them as much response as any Osvaldo,
51:28
I thank you so much for this time to think and to keep talking
51:31
about what is coming. I understand that Peronism can be the basic structure of
51:37
a front that can be constituted in opposition to this scourge that we are living
51:44
today, which is undoubtedly an anarchoque colonialism, as they said it should not
51:50
be. I should do it. The truth is that I make you shabo
51:59
with a lot of pain in front of a guy who is president today,
52:04
who without a single governor, with seven senators, thirty- seven deputies,
52:09
two intents, with nothing, with two years of politics, as my dad
52:14
said, makes hair and beard to the living of all the times of politics,
52:17
without even perspiring. He led eighteen governors to sign the czaraza of the
52:24
May Pact, which is nothing. They' re absolute swimmers. He did
52:30
what he wanted, took him at midnight to die of cold with a grade
52:34
eight temperature. He made them stay an hour, made them endure forty minutes
52:39
of an absurd speech, absolutely empty of content. He did everything and that
52:46
' s what he wanted with governors. Handsome guy who knows all about it.
52:50
I have been in office for twenty years, I am like that of
52:53
Santiago, Estero or Chubutti Rionegro. We' re not works, we'
52:57
re new. They all got the trap in. So what does this tell
53:00
me that we Peronist have to extreme and demand our intelligence much more. We
53:06
cannot generate politics and actions and militancy according to the concepts we had until before
53:12
December. Things changed and if we don' t change, we' re
53:16
going to take the Osvaldonemirossi story into the Peronism ecosystem, fifty years after the
53:23
general' s passage to immortality and we' re leaving with the march.
53:27
So we sing it and strengthen our convictions that this will happen and surely we
53:37
will send you a strong hug. Thanks, mate, thanks to you in
53:40
the technical operation. Yellow desequiel, as always in the production of Reboa melina.
53:45
My name is Luis de Giovannino. Today consvaldon Enmirossi and from Bariloche.
53:47
From Bariloche and compañero, there beautiful temperature and beautiful landscape to think about the
53:52
pronism together until the next Chao. Thank you, I saw it or wine.
54:08
You can see or always drink again. Grain Pont at the big step.
54:29
Well, omba that impo, but but he told me background my principles,
54:58
perta nue and my grain to king, well, but worse or girl,
55:45
beautiful cho or grade or baby boron